A Bit of Optimism - Gen Z in the Workplace with Jonah and David Stillman

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

Every generation is different, but one thing currently unites Boomers, Gen X-ers, and Millennials: they are all struggling to understand Gen Z.  David and Jonah Stillman are a father-and-son research team who specialize in generational differences and their impact on the workplace. David is Gen X, Jonah is Gen Z, and together they are helping today’s leaders understand the new generation.  This is… A Bit of Optimism.For more on Jonah and David's work, check out: genguru.comhttps://www.amazon.com/Gen-Work-Generation-Transforming-Workplace-ebook/dp/B01HM27IDK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= 

A few years ago, I did an interview talking about millennials in the workplace. That went, well, it went a little viral. But now the most common question I get is, what about this latest generation in the workplace, Gen Z? So I thought I would call David and Jonah Stillman. David is a Gen X dad with his Gen Z son. So let's talk about Gen Z in the workplace. This is a bit of optimism. Let's talk about Gen Z. So there was a period of time when I would stand on the stage or have meetings that 100% of the time, I kid you not, 100% of the time, the first or second question I got asked is, what's with millennials? Right? Then that kind of went away for a little bit. And now, 100% of the time, somebody will raise their hand and say, I'm struggling with this newest generation that's entering the workforce, Gen Z. You are a father and son, Jonah, you are Gen Z. David, you are not. And you have learned to help interpret the generations. In other words, for the younger generation to understand the older generation, the older generation to understand the younger

generation. And the reason I wanted you on the podcast is because the world desperately needs whatever it is you figure it out. You know, it's interesting because I've had a whole career studying all the generations. And for years, Simon, at literally every speech I would have, someone would come up to me afterwards and go, have you heard Simon Sinek's talk on millennials? Have you heard Simon Sinek's talk on millennials? So it's so funny that like, to your point, we've had so much attention on millennials that no one was paying attention to a new generation Gen Z. And so we knew this conversation was needed to be had. And thanks to you for helping us put it out there. Jonah, so people know, how old are you?

I'm 23. So I'm right. I'm kind of like dead smack in that Gen Z population. That's a whole nother thing, which is there's no consistent definition of what a generation is. Yeah. I think the old anthropological thing, which is a generation is 20 years. Yeah. We look at it now. So you'll see 95 to 2012.

You'll see 97 to 2010. And I think that, you know, why this topic is so interesting when we talk about it is that Gen Z is like, you know, it goes far beyond just the birth years, as you know. So it's about the events that took place when we're kids during our formative years that make each generation unique. Some people say it's every 15 years that you can have different ones. 20 years is still definitely a theory, but it changes. So that's kind of the biggest thing, like what people are always hung up on birth years, but it really is what shaped the generation that makes it unique. are always hung up on birth years, but it really is what shaped the generation that makes it unique.

So how would you define the iconic events or the state of the world that helped shape a Gen Z mind, a Gen Z point of view? A couple of the biggest ones right off the top, right? It's the first generation to grow up in a post 9-11 world. So not knowing a pre 9-11 world for their entire lives, a generation that lived through the core aspect of the 2008, 2009 recession at their most vulnerable age with their parents. So you look at Gen X parents, their net worth was cut in half statistically, right around the times where most families were having dinner together. The conversations were about, where's the next meal coming from? How are companies staying afloat right in the core of Gen Z, a global pandemic, and most importantly,

and the biggest one in my opinion would be just the era of technology, never knowing a world without smart technology, always being there with anything's possible. Innovation is always happening, and technology has never not been there for this generation. How have those things shaped your worldview? I'll take a few of them. And one of them is kind of a bigger in-depth rabbit hole, which is a good thing for a podcast. But the first one is Gen Z approaches life with intense realism. Okay. So you have the millennials

who are often criticized in almost any scenario as entitled, overly optimistic. And then you have Gen Z that's intensely realistic. We know how much money we need to make. We know when we're going to get raises. We know how much a raise is going to be. We're focused on financials. So approaching life with a very realistic attitude, statistically at a young age, and then with intense competitive spirit. So we're constantly looking for ways to get ahead in life, stand out, be different, get to that end goal faster. What are some of the negatives? So the intense pressure, right? With intense realism comes intense self-pressure. So you take this idea that I have to make more money. I have to be competitive. When it doesn't happen,

you feel that immense amount of pressure. So it's one of the most anxious written generations, so very stressed all the time. A lot of social pressure, tons and tons and tons of FOMO. Gen Z is plagued by the fear of missing out. Initially, people kind of laugh at this idea of like, oh, just put your phone away. But research shows, brain institutions are showing that Gen Z has diagnosed signs of anxiety when removed from the outside world. So with all this world with technology, sure, there's endless benefits, but the downsides I would say would be overarching stress to get to that end goal, tons of conversations around mental health and what that has done for Gen Z. And then I would

say the inability to slow down, constant change, constant innovation, very hard for Gen Z to just stop and chill and not want something to continue to move forward. Brilliant. Thank you. So let me share some of the scenarios I've heard in the world. Thank you. So let me share some of the scenarios I've heard in the world. Help me help people navigate these real challenges. Here's one. It's a generation that seems to be conflict avoidant, where they're more comfortable quitting a job without another job lined up than having a conflict with a boss. For example, like asking for a raise. I've heard many examples of someone who's too afraid to ask for a raise, so they quit. And sometimes with an email that says, you don't value me. And very often, the leaders are blindsided, like, we totally would have given you a raise. We love you. A, is that valid? And B, if it is, how do we help both sides

of that equation in that situation? I think it's important just to get started. The people who are probably complaining to you about it are Gen Xers and boomers. Part of the challenge is that they never came of a world where there's options. You would never quit a job without finding another one because you didn't have things like LinkedIn right in front of you all the time, putting new job opportunities in front of you. So I think part of it to understand is that I don't know if they're conflict avoidant as they're more quick to seize an opportunity because opportunities are put in front of them every single day. And so to me, a lot of it is less that they're avoiding conflict is that they're seizing opportunities because they just can, and they'll always have those opportunities in front of them.

This is very specific where people quit with no opportunity lined up. But they're not worried about finding one. I mean, they can find jobs or they're, and it's the era of the side hustle. They can go make their own money if they want to sell something on Facebook marketplace. I mean, it's a whole thing that we have not seen with any other generation is this, you know, notion of a side hustle. For people like you and me, it was called moonlighting and you did it on the hush hush just to make a little extra dollars. Well, this generation has side hustles all day long. And in fact, a big aha for employers would be, I guarantee you, majority of the Gen Zers that are working for you have a side hustle going on. Guarantee it. I hear everything you're saying, David, and I think that's fair. And I think it's all true. But when there's opportunities,

when you have a good team and good employment, where the conflict is simply, I think I'm deserving of more to know how to have that conversation. Jonah, am I missing something here? We know they want it, right? They're hungry to get promoted. We know that the number one way to keep Gen Z in a job is to show them the path to promotion. So I'd just be curious what those cultures look like. Are those Gen Zers that are too not willing to ask for that promotion, being invited into any other conversation? Are they being checked in on? Are they gaining

relationships within that culture? Because to me, I would think that the answer to that would be no, and those are the places where that's happening. And that brings up actually, I guess, kind of an extension. And tell me, Simon, if you've heard anything about this, this idea of Gen Z's lack of social capital, especially in the early stages of their careers. Meaning, especially if you were a Gen Zer that was onboarded and started working at a company in COVID in a remote or hybrid culture, the inability to make relationships with key people in your company, right? So Simon, let's say we work together at a company. You're my manager. Our relationship over the past years has been very quote unquote transactional, right? You give me assignments. We have a Zoom call. You

tell me what I need to do. I go do it. You hang up. I guess we're both lucky if either one of us even turn on our camera, but we're not building that relationship that, you know, my dad always says in the early stages of his career happened around the water cooler, the proverbial water cooler thing. Like Gen Z isn't getting that. So maybe they feel that disconnect and saying, I don't even know who I asked. That's a great point. And I think your point also is a very good one, which is when I was young in my career, nobody talked about their salaries. We never compared salaries. We're here, a team of young kids, they all compare their salaries. Talking about money is not taboo like it was for older generations. I think you're right with access to things like Glassdoor and other resources where they can

look up average salaries for a job spec. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. That's all fine and good, but then you're forming a narrative based on somebody else's experience and then making a decision for your own career based on what's happened to somebody else. Maybe it went badly for somebody else because the company didn't think they were deserving of it. else. Maybe it went badly for somebody else because the company didn't think they were deserving of it. I agree with you. I genuinely agree. Resources like Glassdoor are very A to B. You might've had a very different perspective just based on who your hiring manager was, but it goes earlier than that. In a way, it's always just been for Gen Z, the end of the traditional expert. We decided what movie we were going to see based on Rotten Tomatoes, based on what my

friend, the common person thought about it. I could choose a college class based on the professor, not the course. There'd be hundreds of reviews at a public university saying, oh, you might not be interested in them, but take this class. This professor's awesome. We've had access to all that information before knowing an average salary. So it's like so rooted in our makeup that we can just make decisions based on other opinions. Great point. Great point. One of the things that is said about Gen Z is that they struggle to deal with stress, that there are fewer coping mechanisms than older generations. Clearly, it's not only this generation, but it seems to be the case for this younger generation. You touched upon it a little bit before. A, is it true? And B, if it is true, how do we help Gen Z better deal with stress and

teach them coping mechanisms? Well, let me ask you, when you said they're less able to cope, how's that showing up? Jonah, I think you touched upon this earlier, which is we tend to see higher levels of anxiety and stress-related issues, anxiety, depression. Yes, it's a generation that's, thank goodness, the world is more comfortable talking about mental health. And so some of it may just be that they're more open about it, which is great. That was going to be my first point is yes, one, to answer your question, yes, statistically, Gen Z is struggling with stress more than the other generations. It is the most stressed out generation. If you look at different research studies from different brain institutions across where it is the most stressed generation. The positive side of it is that it's being talked

about, right? Mental health awareness, whether it be mental health days in schools, workplaces, across where it's being talked about, it's being addressed. And the third aspect to answer your question, the solution, the first thing that we've seen work, and I think it's so important just through research studies and focus groups with Gen Z is help prioritizing. And what I mean by that is we talked about initially a little bit about FOMO, the fear of missing out. When you're a generation that has had access to a smartphone, with at any time on my smartphone, I could get an email from my boss saying, urgent, need this done. I could get a text saying a family member is sick. And I could also find out that France is winning the world cup. And my friends are excited about that, right? Like all of these different aspects, how do I prioritize all that information

as a mentor, as a manager, what resources can you help Gen Z tap into in order to prioritize? I think that that's something we've seen be really important of the levels of anxiety Gen Z. I hear from the other generations, the complete opposite. I hear like, I'm so sick and tired of everyone saying Gen Z, they're so stressed out. My God, when I was young, they had no idea what it was like to compete with 80 million others. We didn't have all these tools and we didn't know all of these things. And I think the main thing to realize is that there's been a big shift from talking about your life. I mean, for Xers and boomers, you left your life at the door and you went to work from nine to five and you did not talk about home.

And they all had mental health and they all had issues. You know, you didn't talk about. So a lot of it, we're talking about a lot more because, you know, work is at nine to five. It's all the time. So lives have been blended more into the workplace. And so I think it's really important for all your listeners that are older to be like, no, we understand.

They also had it. There's just a lot more permission to talk about it now. And there's a lot more resources to help Gen Z than there were in the workplace. So where I think there's some validity, and again, Jonah, pushback in the argument that the generation has fewer coping mechanisms, comes also in a struggle to form deep, meaningful relationships. also in a struggle to form deep, meaningful relationships. That because so many interactions with friends are via text, and now picking up the phone and calling somebody is considered rude. And the single best thing we have to help us deal and manage with stress are our friends, somebody we can go to and say, I am struggling. Broadcasting our feelings, standing by yourself with your phone and posting it on social media

is not managing stress or dealing with your struggles. But saying those exact same words that you're saying by yourself in your room to a camera to your friend is not happening. One could make the strong argument that yes, there is struggle to cope because the strength of deep meaningful relationships is fewer and far between. I'm probably not even going to push back because I align with most of what you said. A couple of things that I'll kind of point out there. So in our most recent study, we found that nearly just under 85% of Gen Z say that they prefer face-to-face communication, right? This

idea that if I'm going to communicate with somebody, my ideal way to communicate with them is face-to-face. And it's shocking. When I tell this at speeches and different events, people always assume it's texting, talking on the phone, all these different things. But it brings up this incredibly deep conversation. And this idea of something that you hinted at is in today's world, can a FaceTime conversation with your friend, if you have an hour and you're uninterrupted and it's just the two of you be considered a face-to-face conversation, you are going to get crazily different answers amongst the different generations. A wild percentage of Gen Zs would say, yeah, I would say ideally it can be done in the same room, but that's a face-to-face

communication. I can see you. You can see me. We're talking to each other. Now I get that to a lot of people, that's a crazy concept, but it's tapping into this idea of where and when communication's happening. And it is interesting to your point, like you're saying the idea of voiceovers. No, that's not a conversation. But what if it is on FaceTime? What would you consider that? I'm curious your perspective there. I think we're conflating looking at a picture of a human being and the intense nuance of

body language. Sure. The social languages that are ingrained in us as human beings and how we learn to read each other, that when someone's arms are folded, you can't even tell that my arms are folded right now. So you're not getting any cues that I'm giving off to you that I'm disconnected or I'm putting up barriers. But would you say that changes with the friendship? If you know somebody and it's a, would you consider it different? Out of curiosity, if you were having a FaceTime conversation with a friend, would you consider

it differently than, you know? Of course, because a FaceTime conversation with somebody with whom I've hugged and I've cried with, and I've joked with, and I've accidentally offended and I had to apologize to their face. Yes, of course. There's nothing wrong with technology. Where this argument goes sideways is people blame technology. Technology is an amazing tool, but that's all it is. And it has strengths and it has weaknesses. It has opportunities and it has costs. And I think where old generations think it's all broken and young generations think it's all perfect, the answer is neither. I'm glad to hear the research shows the youngest generation would rather have a face-to-face conversation, but let us not confuse the ability to form a deep, meaningful relationship, the ability to pick up the phone and call a friend

and say, I am struggling, rather than send an eight-page text that says I'm struggling. I would rather meet with you face-to-face, not because I think the conversation will be better, but because my feelings towards you and your feelings towards me would be better. This is a transactional medium. We are recording a podcast. We're having a good time. We're learning a lot. But at the end, I'll turn it off and be like, oh, nice kid, smart. Whereas I'm sitting with you, you get all of the loveliness. And I agree with you. And I think that the difference for a Gen Zer, it's a little bit closer to an in-person conversation than it is for somebody outside of Gen Z. Isn't that what we need to communicate?

Yes. Of course, it's a little bit closer, but it's not the same. I agree with you. challenges, or just daily stresses of life or friendship or relationships, to know how to or find the courage, pick up the phone and say, can I talk to you? I'm struggling. Or to knock on someone's door across the dorm room and say, do you have a minute? I think it's among yourself to make sure that that's happening, right? If you have friends that you haven't checked in on, it's as simple as sending that text initially. Yes, eventually pick up the phone, but thinking of you, making sure you're doing okay. Hey, let's connect later this week. Know

you're busy. Happy holidays. Whatever is staying on the radar is in today's world, we have no excuses not to do it, right? To make sure people are okay. Do you have any data that compares different nations? In my all studying of all the generations, Gen Z was the most globally similar. So that was actually pretty cool. And a lot of the reason is, you know, events and conditions are sort of shared amongst them. For a baby boomer in the US, if something happened, you know, it wasn't happening in Europe, or they couldn't relate to it. But if right now something were to happen really big in Europe or

Asia, Joan and his generation would feel it's happening to them as well. So there is this sort of shared notion for sure. The only country that was less interested in face-to-face compared to this was in the UK. For whatever reason, Gen Zers in the UK were behind every other country in terms of wanting face-to-face communication. I don't know why, but that was the only one that was definitely uniquely different. This idea of shared experience around the world that makes you more similar to people around the world as you is really interesting. And I guess the last generation that had that in spades was the greatest generation.

We call them the greatest generation because they went through the Great Depression and World War II. There was a common experience around the world. And, you know, especially going through COVID and lockdowns, it produces common experience that maybe is lost on older generations. common experience that maybe is lost on older generations. And the optimist in me says, if you have that clear understanding of people around the world as you, maybe your generation as you grow older, you're going to be the reason for world peace because you can actually relate to each other better, where for too long, we've been very different and not able to understand each other. Could not agree more with that. I will say one thing that's very different though around the world about Gen Z is that they're still being raised by different parents. Because one of the key factors,

Jonah talked about the economy and he talked about technology and all these things that shape Gen Z, well, probably the biggest influence on a generation is how they were raised. An Xer in the US is still going to be radically different than an Xer in other parts of the world. So that's where you start to see some differences, especially in places like Asia and some of these others. Because one of the biggest influences on a generation, 100%, was the parents. I mean, boomers raised millennials and Gen X raised Gen Z on the whole. And that's why you see big differences amongst them is because our two generations are so different. So clearly the relationship you guys have is fantastic.

You work together. You've gone on this mission together to help the generations better relate and understand each other. David, parenting advice, how to help somebody of a young generation not struggle as much with some of the things that are universal struggles or to have a competitive advantage because they have certain skill sets, like they're better at face-to-face conversations, for example. A hundred percent. You know, I think first of all, it's to understand, you know, it's not right or

wrong. This generation is just going to be different. I mean, it's sort of a fundamental piece of that. But the other thing too, I will say, I mean, give me an example. After a speech, someone will come up to me like, oh my God, my daughter sits on the couch. She's watching TV. She's talking to her friends. She's got her laptop going. She's listening to music, you know, and I tell her to turn it off because she's got to do homework. And I'll be like, how's she doing in school? Well, she's a straight A student, but it was like, I wouldn't change a thing, you know? And so often I think people focus on the how, and you got to focus on the what, like how are they doing? Just because they'll do it differently than you. And so first and foremost,

focus on the what. If there's a result you're not liking, then you can dig in a little bit deeper. But nine out of 10 parents are trying to do is control how their kids go about something versus looking at the end result. And so that's sort of first and foremost and a fundamental that I find when it comes to parenting. So Jonah, going back to you, do you fit this mold that you're talking about? What makes you the same as your friends and what makes you different than your friends? Where are you getting frustrated with your friends? Where are you looking at your friends going, dude, we are behind or look how much of an advantage we've got. The biggest thing that I will get frustrated about is just the initial desire to complain about something without first figuring out if

there's a solution when it's oftentimes solvable. I hear it, whether it's in a Snapchat group or text group, friends on a casual, whatever, you name it. I feel like oftentimes people are eager to just be like, this sucks. Why can't we just do it this way when it's's like not that big of a deal and we could just solve it. You could just figure out the solution. I think that's like the one thing that I see that bothers me. And then I also think the thing that I'll say that I truly believe I'm good at is being present in the moment. And when I'm doing something, if I committed to hang out with a friend and doing it, I'm content with that decision and not feeling like I'm missing out in a million different other aspects. I think that it's like that. I don't see that oftentimes with all my friends. Your friends are not good at being present? I guess I wouldn't say maybe being present,

just like being content with not knowing what's next. You know what I mean? I guess maybe it is present. If we're doing something like, okay, we're here now, what's going to happen after dinner tonight or tomorrow or on Saturday doesn't necessarily matter. We're doing this now and whoever's here is here and who's not here isn't here. Do you have your phone with you the whole time you're with your friends? It would depend. If it's a Sunday and we're watching football and I'm with a couple of buddies in the coach, yeah, I'm probably on and off my phone texting them. I mean, when you're with a friend, when you're at dinner or when you're talking to them. I would also say I'm really good about that, especially if it's a meal that's something I was raised by and I would give credit I'm really good about that, especially if it's a meal. That's something I

was raised by. And I would give credit to my mom and my dad on this as I was always, if I took my phone outside, if I took my phone out at the dinner table growing up, it was like the end of the world. It was not only was the phone gone for much longer than you could imagine, it was other things were getting taken away. So I've always valued, especially if it's around a meal, not being on your phone, not checking your phone. And if you have to check it, if it's an emergency, you got to excuse yourself. Do your friends think that they're good at multitasking, that they can listen to you and be on texting at the same time?

Yeah, probably. And I think that there's a big difference between being able to multitask and switch between tasks. And I think a lot of people think they're good at multitasking, they're actually good at just switching, but you're not present at both. You're not, I'm sorry, but no one's good at texting and sending an actual text and also listening to somebody. Well, the data shows there's no such thing as multitasking. I agree with you. Totally agree.

Totally agree. There's a couple of things that I love about your generation that's very different than older generations, my generation and older, which is one, you're very inclusive. Your default is I don't care what your sexuality is, what your gender identity is, what the color of your skin is, where you're from. I just don't care. The fact that you know that gender identity and sexuality are different things, like that still confounds older generations, that those things are different. You just don't care, like whatever, right? I love that. And I try to hammer this home anytime I like talk to people because people always ask, what's the importance of, you know, diversity and inclusion for Gen Z, whether it's like they're

choosing a school or a job. And it's like, to your point, it sounds like initially like such a shock. Like you're right. You couldn't have said it better. We just don't care. It's just an underlining expectation, right? That like, if I go work somewhere and you're not representing people in the proper way, we're gone, right? It's just like an expectation. It used to be companies could hang their hat on that and cultures would be like, would they hang their hat on diversity, inclusion, and all these different things that were responsible with the environment.

And now you can't get away with that with the younger generation because it's just an underlying expectation that those things are being taken care of. The other thing that I like about your generation that's very different from the accusations that are loved against millennials, millennials were accused of being sort of slacktivists. They complained about things while sitting in the back of their Uber tweeting on their way to brunch. When you talk to people like, what are you going to do about it? Well, we're driving the conversation. For many years, that's what it was. We're driving the conversation, which conversations don't change things. Action changes things. And your generation is a very activist generation. You organize, you protest, you're out there, you're boycotting, you know, you're a very, very activist generation, which I find action is more likely to affect

change than talk. Talk is cheap. Here's what I've learned from this conversation. Of course, every generation is different for all the reasons we've already discussed. And the best thing that we can do is lead with empathy. Instead of judging a generation based on how we see ourselves, and that goes up and down the generations, rather to lead with empathy. And the older generations have been around a little longer. So you should know how to be curious and empathetic more than somebody who's 19 or 18 and still figuring it out. And so there is an onus, there is a responsibility to an older generation to set the tone of what

curiosity and empathy looks like, and to try to understand where that point of view or behavior is coming from rather than judge that point of view or behavior. And I hope those who have listened will be a little more empathetic and a little more curious to those younger generations. And I hope that this work has helped them connect better with those who grew up differently. And I think the most important thing for us to learn is there are characteristics and attributes for every generation, but they're not strengths or weaknesses.

Agreed. This has been wonderful. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to learn more about the topic you just heard, please check out the Optimism Library at simonsenik.com, where you can get access to more than 35 undemanded classes about leadership, culture, purpose, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.