A Bit of Optimism - Imperfections, Nuance, and Humanity with comedian Alex Edelman

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Great comedians have the ability to point out some of the madness, ridiculousness, and nuance that exists in the world.Alex Edelman is already one of the greats.  His current show, "Just For Us," is a transformative experience for his audiences, as he regales them with his experience as an unwelcome interloper at a meeting for white supremacists.  Our conversation was just as enlightening. We discussed how imperfections are beautiful, how seeing humanity in others is the first step to peace, and if IHOP is good, evil, or something in-between. This is...A Bit of Optimism. For more on Alex and his work check out: https://www.justforusshow.com/https://www.alexedelmancomedy.com/ 

I like comedians, the good ones, not just because they're funny, but because they are the court jesters of the modern day. They are the ones that seem to have the ability to point out some of the madness, ridiculousness, and most important, some of the nuance that exists in the world. It is because of comedians that we are forced to grapple with some very difficult subjects. So I was excited to sit down with Alex Edelman, who I think is a great comedian and more important, a great observer of life and nuance in our world. This is a bit of optimism. When did you first debut your show in Edinburgh? 2014 was my first solo show.

That show was called Millennial, which was before the word became annoying. Before the word was a buzzword. I noticed that I was anecdotally having lots of experiences or seeing lots of my peers go through things that I didn't think was very well represented. And I just thought that people were desperate to sort of categorize millennials as a generational cohort in a way that like didn't really make sense. And so I did a show about it and the British publicist actually was like, people don't know what millennial means. And I was like, well,

then I'll call the show that and spend the entire show explaining this generational cohort. And it was just at the right time. You know, John Baldessari is conceptual artist. He says, every young artist needs to know three things, which is town is cheap. You have to be possessed, which you can't will. And you have to be in the right place at the right time.

And so for all my things that I've done that have worked and I've done some that haven't, I've always been in the right place at the right time. And millennial was like just in the right place at the right time. Do you know the concept of wabi-sabi? Yeah. Okay, so wabi-sabi is beauty in that which is temporary or imperfect.

And to me, wabi-sabi is best encapsulated in Japanese ceramics, which are imperfect in every way. You know, the glaze is imperfect. Very often the pot itself, the cup or the bowl is also imperfect. And I think it is the perfect metaphor for human beings because we are beautiful when we are imperfect. Yes, striving for perfection,

sure. But it's the embracing of imperfection, which is, you know, Japanese ceramics doesn't attempt to be perfect. It attempts to be itself. But what does that mean, the embracing of imperfection? Like sort of the Bob Ross happy accidents type thing? That's a good question. I think the embracing of imperfection is the acceptance of insecurity, the acceptance of working on oneself, the acceptance of I'm in a state of constant growth for my whole life. I'm attracted to people who want to grow. But everybody wants to grow, right? No, I'm not so sure that's true.

I think some people like the idea of it. I think everybody likes the idea of wanting to grow. I'm not sure everybody is doing the work to want to grow. As evidenced by the fact that I can understand a 17 or 18-year-old who's a bad listener. But when you talk to somebody who's in their 40s or 50s or 60s and they're incapable of holding space and learning how to listen after multiple failed relationships and multiple, then I would argue that they're not doing the work. They're not doing the work.

I'm sorry, what? No, sorry. I'm sorry. I'm mostly mad at myself for laughing at such an obvious one. mad at myself for laughing at such an obvious one. But look, someone who's a bad listener in their 40s and 50s, I think it comes down to this question of like, how much will people, can people, should people change, right? Like we've all been in relationships with people where we're misaligned in some way, right? And the question is how much can you or should you or will you be able to bring yourself into alignment with the other with another person like the other if you're the partner who says we

i'd like you to take up less space or i'd like you to be more conscious of how you take up space those can be the same those can be the same request but phrased slightly differently right and so the question of like whether or not someone in their 30s, 40s or 50s is a bad listener, you may talk to them and be like, well, this is who I am. This is who I've always been. I was raised this way. I've always been this way. So that's not embracing growth. What? That's not embracing growth. No, but it may be embracing an imperfection. And I think at the root of that, there's an upbringing for me, a sort of modern Orthodox Jewish upbringing, which is the idea that in Judaism, you are in constant pursuit of perfection

with the complete and full understanding that you will never get there. And so this idea that you have to constantly wrestle with those two things. I met a guy recently, well, actually it was a while ago. I met a guy. I'm thinking of one person when you say, when you say someone in their 40s and 50s

who's unable to process. No, no, no. I mean, I'm not going to make an exception of one and make that my whole case. But it's just by way of example. I met a guy who sort of said, we were doing sort of personality assessments, and he was one of the actual instructors of this process.

And he goes, so for example, I'm an asshole. And he is, by the way. In my interaction with him, I found him to be an asshole. But because the personality assessment declared that he was an asshole and he'd embraced that he was an asshole, simply letting it be at that, that we should accept him as an asshole because he accepts himself as an asshole, I think is insufficient. I think, okay, the personality assessment says you're an asshole.

Why don't you work on that? And your point was if someone just accepts their imperfection, is that not sufficient? And my answer is no. And this guy wasn't saying to us, hey, look, I'm an asshole. I'm a recovering asshole. I'm trying to get through it. Sometimes I regress. Please just point it out and I'll apologize. He wasn't doing any of that. He allowed himself to be an asshole and we should just accept him as an asshole. I'll give you an analogy. I meet somebody for the first time and I put out my hand to shake their hand and they lunge towards me. They go, I'm a hugger. As if it's a game of rock, paper, scissors that

hug Trump's handshake. Like I absolutely all handshakers have to have to just accept being hugged because, you know, hug, hug wins. And that's, that's the same thing here is like, I have to just accept him for being, being an asshole because he publicly declares it. No, I would love to see one person like handshake the person like I'm a hugger and you're like, I have to just accept him for being an asshole because he publicly declares it? No. I would love to see one person, like handshake the person like, I'm a hugger. And you're like, well, I'm a handshaker. Well, you can't because that makes you an asshole. You can't say that's, now that's rude. That's rude to say, well, I don't want to hug you.

I don't even know who you are, but I will shake your hand because I think that's polite. Sorry. Hugs are reserved for my families and dogs. Exactly. I'm a cat person. No one's perfect. No. Can I tell you my theory

of the difference between cat people and dog people? Dog people wish their dogs were people and cat people wish they were cats. That's very good.

Yeah. But both of them have something in common, which is that they wish their houses were slightly cleaner. My furniture's been absolutely annihilated.

It's like having a child, I guess. Like when I first got the cat, I would rush and, you know, and cover all the furniture with plastic, and then at some point you just accept the fact that your houses get, you're just everywhere. Wabi-sabi. Yes, wabi-sabi. The cat theory of wabi-sabi.

The beauty in the claw marks. I just mean people's imperfections. The idea that you will be wide of the mark is built into Judaism. It is like built into, I don't know why it's coming to Judaism here, but like. You can't help yourself. No, I can. I can. I can.

But like. Just out of curiosity, how did you, I mean, most Jewish parents want their kids to be doctors and lawyers. I don't subscribe to that theory. Sometimes whenever anyone asks, what do your parents think of the show? I go, oh, they don't know I'm a comedian. They think I'm a clerk to a justice on the Supreme Court. I was exposed early on to like Mel Brooks, some of the other like comedy greats. I've always loved the aesthetic of Jewish comedy.

I've always had problems with the content. Tell me the difference. I like set up punchline. I like like hard funny. I like jokes. I like Seinfeld. Seinfeld's the aesthetic of Jewish comedy. There's some Jewish content in there too. I don't understand what Jewish comedy is.

So British comedy comes out of theater. It comes out of a more theatrical background. It's a synthesis of that and sort of the working men's clubs of the North and other things like that. So you're Monty Pythons, you're Black Adders. Exactly. Exactly. And English, you don't laugh out loud.

You don't go far. You say, oh, that's funny. That's very, very funny. That's very clever. That's good. That's very good. That's how I feel about Black Hatter. Very good indeed. That's very, very funny. That's very clever. That's good. That's very good. That's how I feel about Black Hatter. Very good indeed.

That's very good indeed. So American comedy actually used to be a certain thing, which was a sort of frontier-sy comedy. Will Rogers was Mark Twain type stuff. Early American humor was very frontier-sy. And then it became, the Jews did indeed replace them. It became, the Jews did indeed replace them. They replaced good, hardworking white Americans with sort of Borscht Belt vaudevillian humor. And so like what we have now, sitcoms, things like that, very Jewish in origin and nature. But for the most part, America's comedy language is very vaudevillian and very borscht-y and very set up punchline.

Okay. And so like American comedy, the aesthetic of American comedy. Got it. I love jokes. Like jokes really work for me because they produce laughter. And right now I'm interested in producing laughter. With that said, sort of like archetypes of like do you hear the one about the guy with five penises his pants fit him like a glove like you know like i find that stuff to be

very hacky and sticky and so i don't love stick but i love i love the way that jokes are built yeah i just like a sort of more interesting more british, sort of aesthetic talking about, you know, what it means to be X, Y, Z, as opposed to like the X, Y, Z ethnic group. So I don't do a ton of comedy about Jews. I do a lot of comedy sort of like about what it means to be Jewish now. And so I found that that's been much more relatable to black audiences, you know, young audiences. So like I don't do a ton of jokes

about the differences between like Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardi Jews, even though there are many and they are hilarious. Like, you know, that's not my bag. My bag is sort of just like,

what does it mean to be alive in America or the world right now? And what are the costs of like hiding certain things about ourselves and like embracing our imperfection? So like,

I love this sort of like woo-woo stuff. i as a consumer of comedy i've never thought about the origins i've never gone into the origins it's interesting eb white said that comedy is like a frog which is that you can dissect it but you kill it in the process so it's never funny to discuss comedy yeah that's i like the irony my show the show I'm doing now, has something to do, I think is very, very, very, very linked with political correctness. But no interview I've ever done has ever identified it as such. But what feeling are you getting that you would say that now? Like, what about your show now?

A pathological love of nuance, I guess. And a pathological love of nuance, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a pathological commitment to understanding that there is a difference between what might be right and what might be effective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the show is about me going to this meeting of white nationalists in Queens. Right. And it's not a thought piece in a sense that, like, I don't like when people take an anecdote and ascribe it to especially one that's fictionalized right a fictional it's based on this meeting but i change things to make the story more compelling and easier to tell and i'm very skeptical of

people being like well this is one person's experience so this is how white nationalism is or you know anti-semitism is or hate in america is but like I do think that a very real takeaway from it is like, how do we talk to each other? How do we talk about each other? What potential is there to create change in those that we're encountering all the time? So, I mean, you're touching on a subject, which is near and dear to my heart, which is the loss of nuance. I mean, we're literally calling it that, you know, and I don't think the loss of nuance is a new thing. I think that the human mind likes things to be neatly organized and preferably binary because it just makes the world easier to understand. You know, we have good and evil.

We don't have a third thing. We just have good and evil. Right. We have like and we have these very binary constructions. Well, there's IHOP. Sorry. No, no, sorry. IHOP's right in the middle where it's like they do the best stuff and they're open so

late, but the quality is variable. Sorry. Go ahead. There's good and evil in IHOP. That's what I think. But that's a container for both. Yeah. It's not a third option.

You're right. Yeah. You're right. That's very, wow. Nuance. Yeah. But to take a joke and spin it in a really thoughtful direction, I want to see more live suffering. It's very good. It's very, wow. Nuance. Yeah, but to take a joke and spin it in a really thoughtful direction. I want to see more live suffering.

It's very good. It's very good. But it just makes the world easier to understand. And if you look at all the myths and all the archetypes, it's this versus that. And even in sort of drama, there's only three conflicts, right? There's man versus himself. There's man versus nature. And there's good versus evil versus evil man versus man right those that's what we learned it's but it's still binary and so my point being is like making the world simple to understand and

binary you know how hard it was for me to not just go ahead make the joke you're like there's man versus evil good yeah man versus himself man versus man and man versus nature so what's weekend at Bernie's oh yeah so weekend at Bernie's man versus man man versus evil I would say

weekend at Bernie's is probably man versus himself yeah yeah of course but the point being is the point being is so that's not

a new construction right it does help us organize the world. But the reality is the world is much more complicated and doesn't fit neatly into two boxes. So the question is what is it about now that is making our need to make the world binary, to make it easy to understand, so destructive or so aggressive? easy to understand, so destructive or so aggressive. I mean, we can make the easy argument, and maybe it's true, that social media and the soundbite world we live in-

I think victimhood is what's made it. Ah, go on. I mean, it's a thorny subject because victimhood- But that's also not a new thing. People have been victims- Forever, but we're in the first age of conscious redressing where people for the first time are actually trying to redress people's very well-founded grievances

and try to adjust for it. Right. Like we're trying to. All right. Let's just say victimhood is a currency now. Victimhood is a currency. And so people are in constant pursuit of justice for their victimhood. I can't remember who it was, but some I watched it on both sides of the political aisle.

Not just both sides. Every single every., every, how about this college admissions, college admissions is fascinating to me because it's the only thing that I can think of. Yeah. Where literally every group thinks they're victimized, literally every group, people of color, white people, Jews, Asians, men, women, rich, poor, everybody thinks they're victimized. Everybody thinks the deck is stacked against them. When the truth is, I don't know. And the truth is, maybe it's different. And the truth is, it's probably really hard to get into Princeton.

And like, I'm just picking a college at random, but like it's, it's gone to the courts and it's going there again and again. But everyone feels victimized and everyone thinks the system should either be preserved or changed to redress that victimhood. And so how do you live in a world? And if you address it in one direction, the argument is now you've now you now you've created new problems that need to be redressed. A thousand percent. And thus the pendulum swings. The pendulum swings back and forth. And I'm not saying whether or not it's right.

I'm just saying it creates a feeling of victimhood that everyone now carries around with them. But that's a very interesting observation, which is, you know, in the past, if you didn't get into something, it was like, oh, well, better luck next time. Where now it's because of something, to your point, which is this idea of everyone's a victim. So how do you create? You realize we're infuriating people who are listening to this because they would argue that two white men talking about victimhood, you know, there are some people who are more victims than others. I mean, my point is. There's so many people this is my point is it's so ingrained this idea that even listening to this conversation is triggering and by the way that would be a very valid point yeah the two white guys two white guys

who are who have pretty much every advantage and who have very lovely lives arguing about you know victimhood so i'm just trying to figure out then, then what's the solution? Where does this go? And you're someone who... I'm just saying that the reason we separate people into binaries now, or the reason that we like things neatly categorized... The new binary is victimhood. I think everything comes back to victimhood. And is that... So where does this go from here? The conversation about... This, this, what we're talking about. Yeah. Like here's my problem, right? Which is the

struggle I have is I find nuance magical. Me too. And I mean, to the point where I avoid binary constructions, even I'm against even what are your strengths and weaknesses? Sure. Because it's all contextual, right? Sometimes my strengths are weaknesses and sometimes my weaknesses or strengths depends on the context.

And so I love i love nuance i mean my work is my work lives in nuance and for me the joy is finding a way to explain nuance in a way that makes sense that is not gray or ethereal but sort of like i understand that the sinew that holds these two poles together. I find that magical. But it's a hard case to make. So I think that my show is a conversation about what it means to be who I am without victimhood factored into the conversation because I don't feel like a victim. That's the broad appeal of the show.

It's not about a Jew who goes to a meeting of white supremacists. It's about there are people who hate me who've never met me. And you asked what the progression is? The progression is the ability to acknowledge other people's humanity and pain. And Jonathan Sachs, who was the chief rabbi of the UK, but had huge mass appeal, used to say that the cure for anti-Semitism was to communicate to people the experience of being Jewish.

And for me, that has very little to do with victimhood. It may have to do with a tapestry of grief that goes back eternity. One of the reasons I dislike binaries is because I don't know that looking at a person and seeing a victim based in nothing other than something that is an identity marker or a socioeconomic marker is useful or productive for that person. By the way, that's a strongly felt opinion loosely held. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, this is just it. What we are doing is having a discussion about a subject that neither of us is sure about. No, I'm not sure. And it's also the thorniest subject. And not only are we not sure, there is no answer. That makes it even more interesting, which is there's no right or wrong

in the discussion we're having. We're trying to understand the situation in which we live that we are a part of. And we are watching this thing play out in almost every facet of life. I think that the comedian is still the court jester who can speak the truth to the king where nobody else can. I get skeptical about that because I see a lot of comedians making jokes about their buttholes. So I'm just like, I'm not even speaking truth to power here. I didn't say all court judges. Yeah, not all court judges. But there is still a role for the comedian in society,

the observational comedian. In the arena of comedy, I think the sides of the sandbox are wider. That's a very good way to put it. That is such a great way to put it because whenever anyone is like, you're the comedians, you're the... Norm MacDonald had a great joke where he used to say, you know, they say comedians are the modern day philosophers.

You know who must hate that? Modern day philosophers. It's perfectly Norm because the front half and the back half are the same joke. Right. But I'm skeptical where anyone says comedians are modern day philosophers. But the sandbox of comedy to encapsulate the nuance or hypocrisy of a point. Yeah. Like I don't think comedians are the modern day philosophers.

I don't think that at all. But when there are ideas, subversive ideas that exist in our society that remain implicit. This is where conspiracy theories live. This is where sabotage exists. This is where characterizations of the other exist. And I think the only way to subvert implicit racism, implicit bias, implicit antisemitism, all these things is to make them explicit, is to point at it, right? Whether we know the resolution or not comes second, but to be able to at least, like it's the first step of

the 12-step program, admitting you have a problem, right? Which is to point to the thing and say, that exists. Whether you agree with it or disagree that this exists, I need to point it out. And I think very often that's what the broader edges of the sandbox for comedians is you get to point things out and make the implicit explicit. To point out nuance that is hard to understand and say, look at this, this exists. And put it to society, to put it to the audience to say, how you choose to deal with it is hard to understand and say, look at this, this exists, and put it to society, to put it to the audience to say, how you choose to deal with it is up to you, but I'm going to point it out. My job is not to remedy the situation. My job is to point at the situation. And so I think, and I saw your show and I loved your show. I think the moral of the show is not

about antisemitism. That's not making the implicit explicit. It's our ability to cartoonize absolutely everybody, including the white supremacist, and to fail to recognize that everybody is a human being struggling. And it's that ability to have empathy for the person that we hate, to see the other as human. That doesn't mean endorse, that doesn't mean approve. But to recognize someone's humanity as the first stage to making peace. Yeah. Well, when I was a young person, I was really lit up by Barack Obama. Yeah. window where it seemed like millennial politics, culture, business was headed for a blend of pragmatism and idealism. He was, I think for me, representative of a moment in time, even though

he, even though I still have, you know, like a lot of, like, he still seems to me like a really pragmatic idealist in a way that makes me. I think isn't that oxymoronic? No. How can you be a pragmatic idealist? Isn't the whole point of idealism is that it's not necessarily pragmatic? I think it's the whole ballgame. I think that like...

I think where the magic lies is in the tension. When you talk about the pragmatic idealist, I don't know if that person exists. It would be nice if they were the president. Right? I think you the pragmatic idealist, I don't know if that person exists. It would be nice if they were the president. I think you have the idealist who works alongside the pragmatist who believes in the ideals, and it's the tensions. And the idealist pulls the pragmatist to think bigger than they've ever

thought. And the pragmatist holds back the idealist to make sure that their feet stays on the ground and that it's not just hot air and the stuff is realistic and the magic happens in the tension. So tell me something you've been involved with professionally, a project, a show, it doesn't matter, something that you were part of, that you absolutely loved being a part of. And if everything in your career went like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. Something specific. Okay. Beginning of the pandemic, March 6th rolls around. It becomes clear the world's shutting down. Go back to my apartment in New York, sit, canceled tour, devastated. No Passover. Passover, this holiday of liberation and togetherness. Everyone's confined,

isolated. My friend Benj Pasek calls me. Benj is my closest friend in the world. And Benj is a songwriter, Oscar, Grammy, Tony-winning songwriter. He wrote all the music for La La Land, Greatest Showman, Dear Evan Hansen. Benj and I are chatting on the phone, and I was like, no Seder this year.

And Benj is like, no Seder. And Benj is like, we should do an online Passover Seder. And I was like, I will a thousand percent do that with you. We got a bunch of people together and there was no ego. No one was paid anything. And these are really top-notch

writers, top-notch talents, top-notch musicians. Everyone was the best in their field. But because of the time that it was in and because no one had anything to do, everyone was being part of this for creative reasons. It was just a YouTube video. We're making a YouTube video. And we got all these people together and we got all these different celebrities that Benj

knew and a few comedy people that I knew. We got like Jason Alexander hosted it, Bette Midler, Josh Groban, Idina Menzel, Tan France from Queer Eye, Dan Levy from Schitt's Creek. We got so many people, so many talented, talented folks. And we got them all together. We put together this 70-minute YouTube video called

Saturday Night Seder. One million people watched it when we livestreamed it, and it raised $3.6 million for COVID relief. And also, it was like a really good piece of work. Like we really put a lot of work into the songs. And we got this all done in like two and a half weeks. Less.

And not a single day has gone by since April 9th, 2020, that I have not spoken to one of the people that I worked with on that show. And Benj has become my closest friend. We've gone to many different countries together in those intervening years and it was just a YouTube video but it reached a lot of people and it was both specifically

for Jews and many, many, many, many, many non-Jews, Broadway fans, comedy fans, food fans, because there was a big food element to it, like watched it. And it was something that made Jewish people feel seen and non-Jews feel entertained and, you know, and, and spoken to. And that was really, it was a beautiful, beautiful. So you've done some remarkable things in your career. What is it about this one thing that stands out so much that you want to talk about it right now?

The creative process. The creative process with all these people who- You've had great creative process before. Yeah, but everybody put their egos to one side and there was no promise at the beginning of this that it was going to be good. It was a YouTube video. And all these people donated their time and I got to see really talented people. I got to see

Josh Groban sing on a Zoom. We had a Zoom. I was like, Josh, here are the lyrics. Can you do it this way? And he's like, all right, I got to shut off the Zoom and I'll record it and send it to the engineer. So he sends it to the engineer. The engineer calls me with fear in his voice. He's like, Alex, I need to send you the file right now. It's like, you need to have a listen before you get back on the zoom. And I was like, Oh, Josh messed it up. And I called the engineer back. I'm like, this is perfect. And he's like, yeah, it's, I'm a little freaked out. It's perfect. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, no, Alex, I can see the sound waves. Like it's perfect. It looks like it's been like engineered and produced and auto tuned almost like he just

did it perfectly. And so I was like, well, what should we ask him? Joe, like, well, I'm about to get back on the zoom with him. And he's like, see if he can do it like a little more human. So like Josh, like I was like, Josh, fuck it up. Like fuck it up a little more. Wabi Sabi, a little more Wabi-sabi. A little more wabi-sabi or a little less. But Josh, like he literally is like

to see that level of talent on display, just like coming at you. And then I was like, I want to stay on the Zoom this time. Just can you open it? And so like we watched Josh do it. And it's like to watch naked talent happen, to watch funny people be funny.

All these writers were funny. And there was nothing, there was nothing against the background of it. No one's worried about their, there, there was no one had contribution. It was pure. It was pure.

It was very pure. It was pure. But I have like to watch a talented person do a thing is the most, it's, it's close to godliness to watch someone do something they really enjoy and have worked hard at, like, it's like a really gorgeous thing. Like, it's a really special experience.

So, like, out of all the great creative experiences I've had, just watching these talented people be talented. So now tell me an early specific happy childhood memory. Not like we went to my grandparents every weekend. Something specific that I can relive with you. My first baseball game. Okay, tell me about it.

Fenway Park has this sensory experience in Boston where there's a concourse. And so to move from the concourse up into the seating bowl, there's this tunnel. And there's this very dark tunnel. And I just have this feeling of walking with my grandparents up this dark tunnel, and all of a sudden, the greenest green I've ever seen

in my entire life just explodes into view. And there's the noise of the concourse and then the noise sort of disappears in this big seating bowl, this open air seating bowl, coming up into that seating bowl with my grandparents and seeing all that. And it instilled a love of baseball for me that is still, and I don't really follow the teams anymore,

but the sense memory of that is uncorruptible. What I find interesting about both those stories is they're very, very similar, which is there is darkness upon us. You're going through, going through the proverbial tunnel of COVID and in Fenway, the literal tunnel, and there's a guide who takes you through and then what comes out the other side is pure color and magic. And in both of the way you describe those experiences were sensory.

Like when you talk about Josh Groban's song, you know, just sort of the same sensory experience of seeing that green in Fenway. That's the experience I had when I saw your show, which is I went through something. And then by the time I came out of it, I had a different point of view of what I expected that was brighter and bigger and inclusive to the point where you could see humanity in the white supremacist. I mean, that is... But you've talked about like a sense of why, like a connection with a greater whole, right?

Yes, for sure. I think that what is appealing to lots of people and for me is an impossible journey. Like to try to reconcile two things that are, like everything that I love, everything that I love making, everything that I love doing, tries very hard to reconcile two things that are, like everything that I love, everything that I love making, everything that I love doing, tries very hard to reconcile two things

that shouldn't be reconciled. Like the humanity in a terrible person. It is a square and it's a circle. It's a collective endeavor and it's one that's almost entirely offered to individual experience. But isn't that your job? That we come in with one of those point of views

and you show us the other. Right? We come in with a point of view and an expectation. And we have no choice because you take us on such a magical journey. You're not telling us. You don't just say, oh, but there's also this. We come to the conclusion before you tell us, which I think is the art of great storytelling, which is your audience arrives at that same conclusion right before. Comedians say that audiences should do most of the work.

Yeah. That's how I write, which is I specifically write my arguments that I want my readers to arrive at my conclusions before. I never want to do a ta-da. Like I don't build it up, build it up, build it up, and I'm going to open the curtain and look how smart I am. I really like those, though. I really like those though. I really like those too. I work very hard that I want people to go on the same learning journey that I went on and I provide the evidence and sometimes the contradictions that I'm muddling through. And if we go down the path together that my reader will go, Simon, let me tell you what the answer is where you put together this research. And they're right. And when I come to a conclusion, we affirm each other.

And I think that you have a very humble way to your storytelling and your comedy, which is your audiences should, in the case of your show, your audience should arrive at the humanity of the people before you tell us. Because you do tell us, you say, you pointed out literally you pointed out, but we, we should have gotten there. It's a compliment. It's,

it's, I, how do I frame a podcast? How do I actually put this in a frame and keep it on my wall forever? I don't know. We can put it in a frame, but please, you are fabulous.

I'm so glad you came on. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsynic.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.