A Bit of Optimism - Kids (And Employees) Know More Than You Think with Dr. Becky Kennedy

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Parenting is the hardest job in the world—and it turns out, it’s also one of the best training grounds for leadership.Dr. Becky Kennedy, aka the “Millennial Parent Whisperer,” became an essential voice for caretakers by offering practical, actionable parenting advice that resonated with millions during the pandemic. As a clinical psychologist and founder of Good Inside, she’s now helping parents build sturdy leadership skills that not only transform their homes but also their work lives.In this conversation, Dr. Becky shares how understanding boundaries, emotional triggers, and big feelings can help us become more effective leaders. Whether you’re a parent or a manager (or both!), her insights will help you lead with more intention, connection, and confidence.This… is A Bit of Optimism. Check out Dr. Becky's work:https://www.goodinside.com/

Someone feels your intention more than they feel your intervention. So intention is, and my intention right now to teach and make better. Where's my intention to vomit my own frustration onto my child as a form of catharsis, which is usually what we do. It feels so good, though. Feels so good. No, it feels good. We do it at work all the time.

If you have kids, then you probably already know Dr. Becky. In fact, you may have used her app when your kid was having a meltdown. She's the author of Good Inside, the name of her app also, but more important, she is an absolute genius at understanding human beings, both the little ones and the big ones. Yes, she talks about parenting and yes, we talked about how to be a better parent, but my goodness, the amount that I got out of this conversation about how I can be a better parent. But my goodness, the amount that I got out of this conversation about how I can be a better leader, absolutely invaluable. This is a bit of optimism.

I live in Los Angeles. We're recording in Los Angeles. We've had these fires. Families have been traumatized. When something happens to a family and it's hard enough for the parents to deal with what they're going through, what are we supposed to say to children? First of all, when unimaginable horrible things happen, there's no

perfect approach and there's no perfect words. And so I just always want to tell parents that, like, what's the right thing to say? There's no right words for a situation that's wrong, ever. So let's just get that out the window. The principle that always drives me, because I tend to be driven by first principles in anything I think about, is that information doesn't scare kids as much as a lack of information scares kids.

Because kids are expert perceivers of the world even more than we are. Because their evolution, their survival depends on it. Kids are so dependent on adults for survival, right? We all need food, shelter, water, but me and you, Simon, we can get food, shelter, and water. Kids get food, shelter, water, love from their parent. And so they have to be especially attuned to what's going on?

Did my environment change? Where is my parent? Might I need my parent now for survival? And so when they're in a situation where they have black smoke around them, packed bags ready to go, a parent crying on the phone, fire, evacuation, person's house burned down, and then the parent goes off the phone and says, sweetie, no, nothing's wrong. Let's watch that show together. A kid panics. They act out. They cling.

And a parent thinks, why are they clinging? So noticing things that are off and not having a narrative to understand them is terrifying for a kid. And so just to start this, what would a parent start by saying is you'd probably start by saying to a kid, hey, you're noticing blank, you're noticing smoke. And then this is really one of my favorite lines to build true confidence, just,

you're right to notice that, things have changed. Let me tell you what's going on. It might be, there's a fire, the smoke from the fire, blue here, the fire's not here, we're safe, we might have to leave our home. That's why we have a bag. My number one job is to keep you safe. And I take that seriously.

And I'm paying very close attention. It might be we're about to leave our home. I'm going to tell you what I know. And I'm going to tell you what I don't know. And more than anything, I know we're going to get through this together. I can't help it. It's like, as you're talking, I'm

running everything through the filter of my own work. And you know, one of my favorite books to recommend to businesses and leaders for how to be a good listeners, how to talk to kids so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk, which is a age-old parenting book because it's basically the same. Yeah. Validate people's emotions and all the rest of it. And as you're giving this parenting advice that's very topical to now, I can't help but run it through the leadership filters. It's the exact same thing we do with any human being, which is they're not idiots.

They're aware of things changing. They're aware of tensions amongst the executives. And we put on smiley faces because we think that if we're happy, then they'll be happy. We hide stress, we hide tension, we hide all these things, as opposed to just telling people. And even saying, I don't know what's going to happen. People can deal with good news, and people can deal with bad news.

It's uncertainty that the insanity and the going down the rabbit holes and the looping starts. And it also disallows the questions, right? Because if you give me information, even if it's bad news, I can ask a question. If you give me nothing, and you lie to me and you hide from me, it leaves me even in a worse state. And so what I find so fascinating

is everything you're saying is true for adults too, is probably just more exaggerated for kids. I mean, I don't think good inside is a parenting approach. It's a leadership approach. It's a leadership approach for sure. What I say to parents, what parents say, especially ones who are really in our system for a while, is we help parents become sturdy leaders.

That's the phrase, sturdy leadership. It's why I'm actually asked often, your good inside book was recommended in my management consulting slack groups. Are you a management consultant? And I used to say no. And now I say, I am. It's just the system I tend to operate in is a family system. But being the leader of a family system

is also about setting up the conditions for success. And that has to do with setting boundaries, having a kind of sense of your own authority as a leader, and staying connected, seeing the good inside people, and thinking about how to bring it out. And whether you have children or employees or athletes on your team, it's all the same stuff. And when you say, you know, when somebody asks you,

are you a management consultant? And if by management consultant, you mean, do I give advice to people to take better care of those in their span of care? Then the answer is yes, 100%. Yeah. Because that's what good leadership is. It's being responsible for those around you.

It's ensuring that those around you will rise, build confidence. All of these things, it's all exactly the same thing. That's right. And when it goes back to the information, you know, two things happen when people notice things in their environment and they're not given a story to understand. They either make up a story themselves and almost always that story is that it's their

fault. And that goes back to our childhood. Good segue here. Okay. Which is styles of parenting have changed over time, like styles of leadership have changed with the times. And when you and I were kids and we got in trouble, our parents said, what did you do this time? And these days, it seems when kids get in trouble, the parents say, what's wrong with your teacher? What's wrong with the school? Because I get a kick out of the criticisms older generations had

of younger generations, like, damn, this generation, we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, damn, this generation, we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. How were they raised is always the question I want to ask. Is it the people we have a problem with or is it the parents we have a problem with? So, I don't know if I'm the best cultural anthropologist of parenting, so I'm going to answer a version of the question. Because what I think you're getting at is, I think a lot of my friends, the way we were raised, was kind of, you did something wrong,

it was like, go to your room, what's wrong with you? Right? And so in a way, what you're saying is, the blame is in the child. And now what you're saying is the blame is in someone else. Right? It actually, I always go back to something my son said so astutely, where my husband was mad at him because he like left the door open when we were backing out our car, and it kind of, you know, scraped on the garage.

And my son ended up yelling back to my husband, like, it's not my fault. And my husband goes, so it's my fault? And then my son said something that I think is so profound and actually to me epitomizes what our approach is in parenting. He goes, dad, sometimes bad things happen and it's nobody's fault. And I honestly think the obsession with fault is like a really interesting thing. Okay, is it my kids' fault? Is it the teacher's fault?

Is that a useful framework? I actually would say it's not a useful framework. So, I think we've gone from go to your room to what you're noticing now. I don't think it's every parent. But it's kind of shifted from, I don't care about my kids' feelings. Nobody cares about feelings. They had a bad behavior. Fix your behavior.

There was a lot of focus on just, that's not okay. Go to your room and learn how to do it better. And now, there's this... Think about it. Think about it. Right. I always think about sending a kid being like, you can't swim, go to your room. Think about how to swim and come back

when you know how to swim. Not very effective, but we've done that for generations. But now there's a little bit of my kids' feelings, not only matter, but like dictate what I should do as a parent. That's equally dangerous. And that is definitely not a good inside approved approach. The way I see it is neither, okay? Like a good inside, like this approach we have to leadership

and to parenting really comes from two kind of first principles. Number one, kids are born good inside. Like, I really believe there's not a baby who's born saying, like, oh, I'm gonna wake up my parents tonight, I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna F them over, like, I hate my parents. No, they're born good inside. And the other inconvenient truth is that they're born with all the feelings and none of the skills. And to me, that visual gap

explains basically 100% of children's bad behavior. And if you think about it from that perspective, or you think about your own kid or any kid you know who acts out, oh my goodness, they're born with all the feelings I have, with all the intensity, and they're born with no skills to manage those feelings. And at any point in life, feelings without skills manifest as bad behavior. The reason people yell at a waiter or yell at a partner is because they're angry, they're disappointed, high feelings, and they don't have the skills to regulate low skills. And then for generations, what we did with that gap is we sent kids away, almost like the feelings

were the problem. The feelings have never been the problem. The lack of skills is the problem. It's nobody's fault that kids don't have skills. It's not the parents' fault. It's not the kids' fault. It's just true. That's how they come out of the package. That's how they come.

So you have to program them. Why don't we teach them the skills? Because if you think about feelings without skills, you can't bring down the package. So you have to program. Why don't we teach them the skills? Because if you think about feelings without skills, you can't bring down the feelings. You can't get rid of the feelings. But if you level up the skills, that changes behavior today and puts kids with the ultimate privilege in adulthood, which is having skills to manage the entire range of feelings you will always feel for the rest of your life. You're not just teaching people how to parent, you're teaching people how to be people. You're teaching human skills, you're teaching...

And I always make the joke like, cats don't have to work very hard to be cats. They're naturally good at it, but it takes an unbelievable amount of work to be a good human being. There's two skill gaps, right? Which is my kids have feelings and no skills, and I'm supposed to teach them the skills that I don't have. That's right. And so, I have a broken partnership with the person who's... who...

if we're raising the kids together, I have an inability to communicate or listen, and now I'm supposed to teach skills that I don't have to a child who doesn't have them. It's a double whammy. And that's... that is my sweet spot. I think what happens when you become a parent, and no one wants to say this because it's like daunting,

is everything unhealed about your childhood just gets triggered over and over with your children. Like, we think our children are gonna heal us and they trigger us over and over, and we have this choice. I can either allow that generational kind of wound or trauma, whatever you want to call it, to then just be passed on generation to generation,

or I can use this opportunity not only to give something different to my kids, but actually to like heal myself and be the sturdiest, most confident version of me. And when you do that at the same time, it's like addicting. It's amazing. And it's hard work. Let's take the question of the kid with the door. Yeah. And let's just change it slightly.

Sure. Right? You left the door open and let's just change it slightly. You left the door open and the dog got out. Right? So you were told to close the door. We always close the door. Everybody knows to close the door. You were the last person out.

You didn't close the door. And a kid says, well, sometimes bad things just happen and it's nobody's fault. What is the right thing to say when they should have actually closed the door and they shirked a responsibility? Right. I just think fault is it's actually powerful to be... I don't know if it's a useful framework for anything. Fault is inherently shameful. Shame makes people freeze.

Freeze is anti-learning, seems ineffective. So, first of all, someone feels your intention more than they feel your intervention. So, I know you didn't mean to leave the door open. So, intention is, and my intention right now, to teach and make better. Or is my intention to... Oh, the intention of the parent, okay....v, and my intention right now to teach and make better, where's my intention to... Oh, the intention of the parent. Okay. Vomit my own frustration onto my child as

a form of catharsis, which is usually what we do. It feels so good though. It feels so good. We do it at work all the time. So good. So good. So good. It's therapy unto itself. Okay, so my kid left the door open, dog got out, here's how. Again, I don't know if I would actually do this, but what I would want to do in this situation... In the ideal, in the ideal, yeah. Okay, so let's say my son is Sam. Hey, Sam, look, the door was open.

You and I both know that whoever's around the door, it's their job to close the door, right? So I think that's an important starting point. Don't try to catch your kid. Do you know it's your job? Don't ask your... Don't ever ask anyone. It's everybody's job, right? Yeah, just don't ask a question you know the answer to. It's like a horrible experience on the other end.

All the time. Never do that. We both know that. I know you were the last one at the door. It was open. Let's figure this out. Look, I think the most important thing is figuring out how you can remember more often to close the door. So, okay, what would you need to remember? Now, my kid's gonna be like, I don't know, I'll just remember.

Look, I'm not satisfied with that. And it's not because I don't trust you. I know you want to remember. The truth is, I forget things all the time too. It's just what people do. I wonder if there's anything, and this is where I'm gonna lead my kid to the well. I wonder if there's anything someone could do.

Like, Sarah, like, do they like, has anyone invented like a piece of paper with like a, like a sticky thing that like one could like put near? And my son's gonna, like, do they like, has anyone invented like a piece of paper with like a sticky thing that like one could like put in there? And my son's like, oh, a post, oh my goodness. What would you do with the post-it? Oh, I could probably write closed Sam. Genius. Genius.

Okay. And this is what my son would do. So could you write that for me? No, sweetie. You know why I'm not going to do that for you? Because the rest of your life, you're going to be in situations, not about a door, but with some situation where something goes wrong, and you're going to have to think about what to do to improve the next time. And I'm not going to take away something from you that's going

to really help later, which is the process of actually doing the thing yourself, because it's actually going to feel really good to you. Not like fun good, but no, I'm going to expect that. And just to be clear, and this is if I had to say this, I'm gonna expect that by 8 p.m. And I just wanna be clear with you about that because I really wanna set you up for success. And you know why most people don't do that as parents and definitely don't do that in leadership

is because it takes time. But it doesn't, I actually have to jump in this. It takes time, it does, it takes time and it takes patience. No, yes and no. You have to set that all up, you have to learn how to say it, you have to wait for time and it takes patience. No. You have to set that all up. You have to learn how to say it. You have to wait for it. No, no, no. We have to learn. No, no, no. I agree with you. But I just know in my experience in leadership, most people will not do the work that I talk about or write about. So here's a great example. Because it takes time.

It takes energy. It takes effort. Sure. I remember I was giving a talk to a bunch of senior executives at some company, whatever it was, and they were going through really hard times. And I was talking about leadership and taking care of people and making them feel safe and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And one of the executives, literally this happened, he raises his hand and goes, I can't do anything that you're talking about. You have to understand, Simon, the pressure that we're under. I don't have time for the stuff you're talking about. And my response was, I hear you don't have time. I got

it. I understand the stresses and the pressures are great. My question is, what were you doing in the good times? Like, how come you weren't making building those environments in the good times? Just my questions, what were you doing in the good times? But it goes back to the point was people feel pressure and they don't feel like they have the time. And it's the same reason people micromanage, is because for me to let you try it and screw it up, and then I have to give you feedback, and still not great, and then I have to let you do it again, and maybe by the seventh time, it'll be good.

Just do it myself. It's because you have to have patience and time. Yeah, I guess the way, what I would say, parents say this to me all the time too. I don't have time to learn these things. I say, look, I have no idea about your schedule and your time, and I'm not going to lecture you about how you spend the time, the things you value, not my style. But here's what I know.

We either spend time preparing or reacting. And if we're used to spending time reacting, we don't quantify it as time because it's just our default. And all I know from parents is it actually takes a ton of time to yell at your kid, to watch something go wrong all the time. And it takes a lot of time to fall asleep at night when you're feeling really guilty. And vent to your spouse and say, watching TV. You're just used to it.

So you don't mentally account for it. That's good. So I'll amend. They don't want to spend the time before. It's just new. But they're happy to spend the time after. It's just anything that's new. Anything that's new feels uncomfortable. And we always misinterpret discomfort as a sign of something wrong, when it's a sign of something new. So I would say to the person, you're right. It will be a new way to spend time. And it will mentally feel longer because anything in that new circuit does because it's unfamiliar.

I want to change the subject. So you and I have something a little bit in common. Both of us have careers that kind of happened by accident. You know, we were both kind of doing our thing, and then something happened, and now we're doing something different. Yes. You know, and neither of us saw it, expected it,

planned for it, had any idea it was gonna happen. It wasn't in any plan. And just for those who don't know, you had zero minimal social media presence. I think when you started, you probably had like everybody else, like 50 followers, your friends. Yeah. And then something happened. You put out a statement.

It went viral. And all of a sudden, you're it. There's so many things before that that feel like really pivotal parts that led to that. It takes a long time to become an overnight success. That's exactly right. So I had been having all these ideas because of my private practice, just to give a little backstory, what I was doing just a couple days a week in private practice, I was seeing adults for therapy, like you, me, therapy, I was doing couples therapy, individual therapy,

and I was seeing teens. And then in other sessions, I was seeing parents of younger children for parenting work. And what started to strike me, and it just started to get louder and louder in me and felt so wrong, was, oh my goodness, I know the way I'm working with adults and teens and couples is right. And I know it's right because it's this mix of different things, and I'm just watching them change their lives, right? But then I have this next session with parents and what I hear myself saying to them based on the training that I thought was right is from a first principle

perspective the complete opposite. I would never have an adult like if you came to me and said I did this bad thing I would never take your phone, I would never shame you, I would never punish you, you never come back to me as a therapist. I say, okay, that's not great. Let's figure it out, right? I'd give you some experiments, I'd give you practice. But I was talking about timeouts, punishments, sticker charts. That's what I was trained to do. And I heard myself saying it. And the juxtaposition from one session to another, it just exploded out. And I ended up saying to a couple, I was like, I don't believe what I'm telling you. I'm sorry. This is so awkward, but I need a couple days to figure out this whole parenting thing. Did you have kids at the time?

I had kids at the time. I think that was part of it because once it wasn't just learning in a vacuum about like timeouts and yes, and so linear, so logical. Which is everything you got from a book. Yeah, and from actually a very esteemed extra training institution in parenting, the one that was considered gold standard. I couldn't believe I got into this program. But then I had kids and I feel feel like you're gonna get this,

but there's all this, like, evidence base in psychology. I believe in evidence. I believe in science, okay? And I think what struck me in my practice was... this evidence in my body that this was wrong. Yeah. It felt wrong. And once I said this thing to this couple, which I was like, I don't...

I'm failing into times out. I'm sorry, I this couple, which I was like, I don't... I mean, the hell are you gonna do times out? I'm sorry, I don't believe in this. Like, I don't know what to tell you. It led to these months of writing. It opened something up. I was up at 4 a.m. I couldn't stay in bed.

I had... It was like something a damn. And I was talking to my husband. I was talking to my husband. And I remember one night, he's like, you should really put these thoughts somewhere. I think part of him was like, I'm trying to watch the football game. You know? Um, and then...

Boundaries, boundaries. Boundaries. I put up my first post, February 28th, 2020, and two weeks later, and this was the viral moment, New York City shut down for COVID. I had 200 followers exactly that day, I remember. And at the time, what would happen is I'd write these posts just based on ideas.

I wasn't... I don't know what I was doing with that. I just... I felt more relieving than anything else. I had to get these ideas out. And I wrote this long carousel post, okay? And the moment was the first part of it, just said, our kids will remember more about how their family home felt during the coronavirus-19 epidemic than anything about coronavirus itself.

Our kids are watching us and they're learning how to deal with uncertainty. Let's wire them for resilience, not panic, swipe for nine ideas how. And then this carousel had nine ideas that were basically like 20 years of therapy, crammed. It's like how I do into a post. So here's why I think it wasn't a surprise. My husband would always edit my things because I'm 0% perfectionist. I put things out all the time that just works in progress. And he'd be like, there's a typo here, there's a typo here. And I remember him looking at this post and saying to him, stop, I have to get this out. And I look back to who? To my mom's friends who were following me on Instagram, who don't even know how to use Instagram.

Like who? It was, I was like, who did I have to get that out? But there was this like thing. And so I did. And it went crazy. It started to become part of the zeitgeist. Started to become part of the zeitgeist. And people wanted more and more. And I think around this time, I called my sister who's younger, and I was like, how do you do an Instagram story? People want me to do stories. I wasn't on social media. I was telling all my clients, get off social media. I thought it's really bad, but this felt different. And then I just started putting out more and more. And I think during that time, with so much uncertainty, it's not unlike the time with the fires. People want a sturdy leader.

Sturdy leaders, they're not afraid to tell the truth. And I think in general, being told the truth by someone who you feel likes you and believes you, being even told the hard truth by someone who likes you and believes you, is like a really amazing human feeling. And we love getting it because it's so rare in our life. And I think that's probably what was compelling. Soterios Johnson From your data, and I'm sure it changes over

time, but I'm curious now, what skill is most lacking? Amy Quinton Boundaries. Soterios Johnson Say more. I want to go down deep in this because I think it's an unbelievably misunderstood concept. And just from a work standpoint, I've had many conversations with people who talk about that they have boundaries and they want their boss, their company to respect their boundaries. And then the great irony is they respect nobody else's anyway. I could give you specific examples, but I'll start with that.

Anyway, go on. So I want to give you my definition of boundaries. Misunderstanding of what they are and how they work. That's exactly right. Having clear definitions of what things are is like the foundation for doing something well. Yeah. Clarity. So I'm going to share my definition of boundaries because I hear this all the time too. I'm setting boundaries to my kids and they don't respect it.

My mother-in-law doesn't respect it. And then I say, give me an example. And almost always I'll say, like with love and respect, that's not a boundary. And they're like, what? So give me an example of one that's not a boundary. I tell my kid over and over not to jump on the couch. They know not to jump on the couch. They're old enough. They know better.

They do that. I tell my mother-in-law not to stop over unexpectedly. She has to tell me and she keeps doing it. They keep violating my boundaries. Neither of those are boundaries. Here's my definition and it's super simple and usable. A boundary is something you tell someone you will do and it requires the other person to do nothing. do and it requires the other person to do nothing. S- okay, give me an example. Okay. A boundary with the mother-in-law who stops by would sound like this. Hey, look, I don't want it to get to this. I think I've asked you a lot of times, please call before coming over. There's a reason for that. It's the order of our day.

I don't do great when I'm startled. And so I just want to tell you, this is new, and I hope it doesn't get to this, but the next time you come over unannounced, I will come to the car and say, no, I can't have you here for a visit. I know it's going to be hard for both of us. That is what I'm going to do. A boundary is something I tell someone I'm going to do,

and it requires someone else to do nothing. So if someone doesn't respect my boundary, it's not someone I'm gonna do, and it requires someone else to do nothing. So, if someone doesn't respect my boundary, it's not even part of the equation, because when we say that, we're saying, I'm giving away all of my power to someone else. Mm. What if a boundary's unreasonable? What does that mean?

What if it's the other way around? Mm-hmm. Where it's the parent-in-law... Mm-hmm. ...who says, these are my grandkids. I'm gonna come over to your house. I'm gonna come over to your house. I'm gonna come over to your house. If you don't let me in, then I'm gonna sit in the driveway.

You know, like, they'll do... They follow the same, you know, schematic, except it's an unacceptable boundary, because it's not their family, not their home, you know, etc. I found your key and I got a copy, and I'm gonna come in whenever I want. I just want to let you know that. Great. If you don't let me in, I'll just let myself in.

That's my boundary. Right. To me, I love the idea of this... Because I'm just seeing how these things escalate into fights. Yeah. So a boundary is something you tell someone you will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. The reason that matters and is so usable is anytime after someone hears that definition and they set what they think is a boundary, they can just check themselves. Did I tell someone else? And does it require the other person to do nothing? So I want to say it again because it's really important. A boundary is something you will enforce

and they have to do nothing. That's right. Now, another more general way to think about a boundary, it's just not as practical and actionable to like evaluate whether you're setting one, is I believe a boundary is a way of telling someone what you need to continue being in a relationship with them that feels good to you.

That's really why boundaries strengthen relationships. This is what I need. My mother-in-law, I need you to come over while you've announced it because that's what I need to still feel good in our relationship. I want to preserve that feeling. So if someone said to me, hey, I just want to let you know, I'm going to come over to your house, and I already have a key, and I'm going to open the door whenever I want to come in.

What I would say back is, ooh, that does not work for me. That does not work for me. Boundary v. boundary. And I try to diffuse it by trying to get to the underneath. It sounds like you want to see the kids a lot more than you have access to them. Let's figure that out.

I think there's another way. You want to see the kids a lot more than you have access to them. Let's figure that out. I think there's another way. You want to see them more. I want some, you know, announcement that we have to have some middle ground. Okay. So this is really, really important. What is happening here, it's not boundary versus boundary. It's listening skills, which is when somebody sets a boundary that you and I would interpret as inappropriate or unacceptable because such things exist.

The person on the receiving end of it, instead of saying, absolutely not, don't you dare, I don't want this to become a fight, what you were talking about is listening skills. And what I heard you say was, what you want is to see more of the kids that you want access to the kids. I hear you. And it's not saying that their boundary is wrong. It's helping them get the thing that they want. That's right. But in a way that is conducive to the relationship and to your family. Let's sit down and go through our calendars and find all the times you can have with the kids.

Let's give you that. I mean, to me, that's a superpower from a communication standpoint. And I talk about this to parents all the time. This happens with in-laws, this happens with kids all the time. Where when someone doesn't feel like they're being taken seriously, or when someone doesn't feel like they're being believed, this is true for all of us, we all escalate the nature of our communication to try to get believed. That, unfortunately enough,

leads the other person to usually get more aggressive and invalidate more, which sadly enough leads the other person to escalate the expression even more, and you can see this awful cycle. So, I would say it's about, do we want to be right or do we want to be effective? You know, we try to be effective. So if you want to be effective, and this is a person, whether it's your mother-in-law or your kid

or someone at work, that you want to stay in a relationship with, the skill to develop is what is the wish under the escalation? What is the thing that needs to be believed? I think the thing my mother-in-law needs me to believe is that she really loves my kids and she really wants to see them and she feels shut out. One way of solving that is coming over unannounced with a key.

But she's probably only bringing that up because she almost feels so desperate to let me know how much she wants this. And if I don't respond on the surface to the escalated words, but kind of respond to like the pain and the very believable wish underneath, we're probably going to be able to get somewhere.

And as you said, if you fight the behavior, all you're doing is invalidating the feelings and it makes somebody double down on whatever they're trying to achieve or get or feel seen or feel heard, whatever it is. That's right. Why do we fight with our parents or get triggered by our parents

in a way that nobody else triggers us? Like I am, I have a temper with my parents. I don't have a temper with anybody. Yeah. Well, I think what you're really also saying is just like, what, what are our triggers? Right? So why do parents more than anyone else in our lives bring it out on us? They're the people you have the closest attachments with. So triggers are

memories of our past that are interrupting in the present. That's what they are. They're things that were never healed. Triggers are memories from our past that are interrupting in our present. Okay. Triggers are unhealed memories. And they're not just one memory. They're patterns from our past that come alive in our present. So what might that mean if someone's goes, whenever my parents is something even in the realm of criticizing, which is like, oh, you brought this salad for Thanksgiving. And I heard this recently from a friend, like you're always criticizing me and what can never be good enough for you. And later the person's like, well, I don't know,

maybe my mom just was surprised I brought a rugelach, whatever it was. OK, so that would be a trigger. So what's going on inside, right? This is a memory. And the reason I think the word memory around triggers really matters is people say all the time, I don't remember how my parents responded to my tantrums. I don't really remember how my parents responded

when I made a mistake. We have such a limited definition of memory, as if memory is only the thing we can verbally produce for someone else. Memories that we can verbally produce were integrated for us. People gave us a story. That's why we ingested a story and can verbalize a story.

Most of our memories do not exist. The vast majority of them were things that happened that lived in our bodies, meaning my body registered. My parents looking really disappointed with me if I got anything but a 95 or above. Or my body had so many times where I made a small mistake and I was met with immediate criticism instead of curiosity. Why did you always forget your, you know, you always lose your jacket, Simon, versus, hey, you're forgetting your jacket. Like, you're a smart kid. I know you always forget your, you always lose your jacket Simon versus, hey, you're forgetting your jacket. Like you're a smart kid. I know you want to be responsible.

What's the system we can come up with? So let's just say that was true in your childhood. In general, when you struggled, it was meant with criticism and judgment rather than some type of like boundary curiosity, actual skill building like we've been talking about. And what does your body do? Your body's always forming circuits, right? You're born with 25% of your circuitry by age three, it's 75, by age five, it's 90. These are, yeah, okay. And so when people say, I don't remember, it's always interesting. Your body and how you react to your triggers are your best teachers for everything that happened in your early childhood. And if you start to look at them that way, you have an unlock for all of the things that need healing

and reworking to be the sturdiest version. So then what probably happened? Little Simon, right? When you were younger, was like alone with this, oh my God, I'm a bad person. I always lose my jacket and I get a bad grade in my math test and I hit my sister and I only hit her because she said I was a poo-poo head, but no one even knew that. And so you're left with this affect that's called unformulated affect. Why is it unformulated? Because kids need adults to formulate it for them. Hey, you hate your sister. Totally not OK. But what happened? Oh, now I integrate it. Unformulated affect just lives free floating in your body. And so if that happens, not one time as a pattern, I always feel criticized. I'm not seen for the good inside.

Right. In those moments. Then when things happen in our adulthood, our body goes in and basically does an inventory. What do I know about how to respond in situations like this? Well, you do the same thing you probably did as a kid. As a kid, you know what you had to do to cope with that. You probably had to yell at yourself, what's wrong with me? I'm a horrible person.

I'm always criticized. You have to make sense of it. You have to blame yourself if you don't have a story. And so here you are in adulthood reliving something that honestly isn't even happening in 2025. It's probably happening in, like, 1980. So I had a terrible, terrible, terrible temper as a kid. It's non-existent now. I think most of my friends, even the team,

most people have never seen me angry. And I'm not repressing it. I'm just much very good at managing anger and expressing it. I can say to somebody, I'm really angry right now. But as a kid, I mean, like, bad, inappropriate tempers. And screamed at, yelled at, told to go to my room, because this energy has to come out somewhere, broke things, smashed my room up, got yelled out for smashing up my room, got yelled at for screaming and yelling and kicking things in my room and things like that.

So just made it worse. I got even more. And it stopped when I took my favorite thing and I broke it. And then when I finally calmed down, I'm like, I just broke my favorite thing. Totally personally accountable. Right. And they've always, this has been my story, which is my temper stopped when I realized it was only hurting me.

But yeah. Yeah. But you know, I was going to say that? But in this session, talking to you, I've realized what I wanted was in these periods of losing control and fully aware that I've lost control, fully aware that I'm not in control of my own. All I actually wanted was for somebody to make me feel calm and safe. And it didn't happen. I got locked in, well, not locked, but left in my room until I calmed down. And now, when I think of myself as an adult, you talk to any of my close friends, the biggest compliment I give to my close friends, they all know this is thank you so much for making me feel safe. And I think back to those times when all I wanted was to somebody to move in. And the times now when I'm...

I won't say acting out, but nervous, saying the wrong thing, I can speak in very exact terms, which I think can be very jarring for people. And what I really want is for people to lean in. Yeah, and contain you. And contain it. I'd be like, I'm not gonna let you speak like that. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, I'm not gonna let you speak like that. Because you're a good person and I love you. And, you know, and it's not... you speak like that. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'm not gonna let you speak like that. Because you're a good person and I love you. And it's not, again, it doesn't come out in temper tantrums, but I can be very exacting in my words to the point that people don't know what to do with it. Well, you know, I always think anger is so misunderstood. Anger is a feeling that we have, it's our best feeling.

Because it tells us what we want and we're not getting. And it's why women don't like to feel angry, because when we had tantrums, we were really sent to our room as little girls. Yeah. And what we learned is not that our tantrums are bad but that our desire is bad. You're a person with a ton of ideas and a ton of want and desire. So you probably did have more anger than the average kid because of that. For sure, for sure. Right? And now you figured out how to channel it. And one of my worst habits as a leader, I'm looking at it differently now after talking to you instead of saying,

I need to fix that, which I do. But now I'm saying, OK, where is it coming from is a more interesting question. Yeah. I'm a reactor. So somebody will show me something and I'll go through all the things that are wrong with it.

And I make somebody feel bad and demoralize about the work that they do. I think the work's great. I just found a few things wrong with it. And I go straight to everything that's wrong. And I always forget to say, or I often forget to say, this is great work. Thanks for putting in all this effort. I have a few comments, right?

So it makes somebody feel, I don't. I leave that little preamble out. And then I'm like, oh, shit, I hurt somebody's feelings. Let me go backtrack and be like... And now I'm looking at it through a new lens, rather than a, how can I stop being a reactor? Going, all right, where did that come from? This is the thing. When we want to change something in a relationship with someone else, a new lens rather than a how can I stop being a reactor going all right where did that come from?

This is the thing. When we want to change something in a relationship with someone else we generally get the starting point wrong. We can't change how we interact with someone else until truly concretely we change the way we interact with ourselves. And so if you know that happens and by the way I'm the same thing I'm just so quick to be like no no no but and then I had him like, that was an amazing meeting. I love that person. Yeah, it's exactly the same.

I'm like, I love that person. I love having them on the team. And they're like, oh, I can't do anything right. And I think the only success I've had and my husband has actually pointed this out because he said to me, I used to think you were hard on everyone and hard on me. But he said to me, I realized, oh, my goodness. Imagine Becky's monologue to herself. If that's the way she...

Like, imagine how hard she is on herself. And he's like, it totally changed. I felt like, oh, I felt so much more compassion. And I really took that in from him. And I think what that led me to do is find moments where whether it's burning the garlic, not leaving enough time, oh, my goodness, I didn't respond to that email.

Actually, truly saying those moments, and this to me is a good framework, I'm a good person who didn't respond. I'm a good person who didn't leave enough time. Yeah. Actually practicing the validation first with myself, you need to build that up before you're gonna give it out. What is a client you had,

something you've done in your professional life that filled you up more than sort of anything else ever has? So this really snarky teenager. I remember the first session. She, the first thing she came in. I had, I did have a relatively old computer and she was, that's your computer. You're pathetic. The first thing she said in the office and I, and I was like, game on.

You know, I was like ready. And I was like, okay. And she was a cutter. She was cutting. And so I said, okay, well, tell me how long have you been cutting? And she was two years. I was like, that's a long time. Your parents told me you've never seen a therapist before.

And she goes, wow, my parents wanted to send me to therapy two years ago. And I told them, if you send me to therapy, basically you're saying I'm fucked up and I'm a messed up kid and you're kind of like saying, you don't love me. Is that what you mean? And if you send me to therapy, I'm going to go and I'm going to make up lies and I'm going to miss the appointments and I'm just going to waste your money. And then there was something in me. I just knew to say nothing.

And probably after 30 seconds, the entire mood shifted. She went from that exactly how I said, and she just looked down. And when she looked up at me, she said, can you believe they let me make that decision? Wow. The kids who act out the most are in the most pain. Just so misunderstood. And I don't blame parents because, again, being able to see someone's pain and fear and desperation

under their nasty words and behavior, that requires skills and practice and support and resources. And the only thing we're told at the hospital is that we should get a car seat. And so these were such amazing, well-meaning parents. They just, they didn't understand her. And so that's taught me a lot about kids. It's taught me a lot about boundaries.

So interesting, I was sharing this with someone in our community the other day whose kid was giving the hard time about therapy and said, Dr. Becky, I used exactly what you said, which came from this. We're going to a therapist. That is my decision. and it's a decision because I love you and I believe in you. You can go, you can lie. My job is to get you there.

I'm gonna leave work early every Thursday. I'm gonna drive you there. What happens in the room, I have no idea, and it's up to you. But there's nothing you can say. That will change my mind about how important it is for me to do my job. And we're going to start that tomorrow. You've helped a lot of teenagers, you've helped a lot of cutters, you've helped a lot of misunderstood

kids, you've helped a lot of kids of parents who are struggling and just don't have the skills. What is it about this one young woman who, again, of all the kids you've helped, she's the one you want to talk to me about? You know what it is? I guess I really have a thing for the kids who everyone labels as bad, as difficult, as defiant, as dramatic.

The misunderstood kids. If I think back to my own childhood, why? I was actually the opposite. I was way too good as a kid. If I think way too good. Took me too long to kind of get into my own desire and power and separation. It was so good. So maybe that's like the most repressed part of me or maybe part of me envied by them. I don't know. But I think all the time I would hear from parents, you know, oh, my kid hits and they're

such a bad kid and their poor sister. And it's so interesting. My framework was always different. Like, yes, the poor sister, we've got to protect her. We have to protect your other kid. This kid is going to build their identity as the bad kid. We have to protect that kid too. That kid is in desperate need of protection.

And I guess I feel like someone needs to be a champion for these really good kids who are having a really hard time and are in desperate need of support and coaching and help and leadership. You practice the thing you preach so well, so well. I know too many people who write the book, but then you meet them and you realize it's bullshit.

Or maybe it was true up until they had fame and fortune and then it stopped being true And you are so true to yourself and true to your work You are the embodiment of the stuff you talk about what an honor what an honor to sit down with you Such joy. I thank you. I Thank you. I'm taking that in that field. Thank you. It was really good. I could literally talk to you for forever. You've Challenged me as a leader. You've challenged me as a leader, you've challenged me as a... I've had free therapy, you didn't even realize this.

How many little epiphanies and light bulbs have gone off of triggers and things that they're manifesting in all kinds of my relationships. This has been the best free therapy I've ever had. Thanks so much for coming on. I can't wait for our next session then. I look forward to it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you

like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonscenec.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David Jha, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad

and Greg Rudershan.