A Bit of Optimism - Leadership with General CQ Brown, Jr.

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

For this 4th of July, I wanted to do something special to celebrate the birth of our nation. So I invited Air Force Chief of Staff General CQ Brown, Jr. to join me on the podcast. General Brown is the head of the Air Force and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is also the current nominee to be the next Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. If he is confirmed as Chairman later this year, it would make him the most senior-ranked member of the United States military. General Brown is humble, approachable, credible, and super inspiring. This is… A Bit of Optimism.For more on General Brown and his work, check out: His Leadership Library: https://www.af.mil/About-Us/CSAF-Leadership-Library/His comments in the wake of George Floyd: https://twitter.com/PACAF/status/1268794618461618177?s=20His bio: https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/108485/charles-q-brown-jr/ 

For this July 4th, I wanted to do something special to celebrate the birth of our nation. So I invited General C.Q. Brown to join me on the podcast. General Brown is the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, the head of the Air Force, and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Air Force and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is also the current nominee to be the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, which would make him the most senior ranked member of the United States military. He's the first African American service chief, but more importantly, he's just a great officer and a great general in our United States military. So we sat down to talk about what makes a great leader, how senior people can stay in touch with young people, and quite frankly, make sure that they get the truth of any situation.

And yes, we talked about AI. General Brown is humble, he's approachable, he's credible, and he is super inspiring. This is a bit of optimism. This is a bit of optimism. the highest level of the Air Force. You are the chief of staff of the Air Force. You run the Air Force. One of the things I'm so fascinated about rank, and I see this in all organizations as people make their way up the rank, which is the more senior you get, the more difficult it is to get the truth. And it doesn't matter what kind of inclusive and open-minded environment you set, no matter who you are, the rank becomes intimidating. People want to please you. Have you noticed that? When did you start noticing that as you made it through your career? And how do you combat that? I think the time that I noticed it the most was when I was a wing commander at Aviano. And I went there as a one-star select. And I showed up as a colonel.

I got there in June. Ceremony was in September. And the day of the ceremony, it was a complete change. My wife and I talked about it. It was almost like, Hey, I'm still CQ. I'm still in here. I'm the same guy. Just have a different rank. That was when it really, uh, I think it really hit me that folks really started to treat me differently, but you're right. It is a challenge and it is a challenge to get feedback. And so I, you know, I have a couple of techniques I try to use to actually encourage people to, uh, I wouldn't say discard the rank, but at least be a little more open with me in conversation. How do you do it?

Well, one of the things I do when I have meetings is I never sit at the head of the table. I always sit on the side and try to make it more of a round table in an engagement. And then I also have a saying, I want to have the meeting after the meeting in the meeting, because we've all been in meetings and because of deference,

people won't say anything. And then they get in the hallway and that's when all the opinions start or you turn off the video camera and then that's when all the opinions start and they go god i wish you would have said that in the meeting yeah because we could get a lot further in the process it also helps i'm an introvert so i listen more than i speak and because of that i let the debate go on and at some point i'll go okay i think I've heard enough and I preached everybody's input. So here's, I think, what we want to do based on what I've heard. And I just try to be inclusive in the conversation. I remember noticing that people treated me differently.

Like to your point about when you went from colonel to brigadier general, like literally like the day before they told you more than the day after the promotion ceremony. I noticed that the emails would start with, I know you're busy, but. Like people would show so much more deference for my time than they used to. And the funny thing is I do it. If I send you an email, I'm going to write, I know you're busy, but. And it's just, I noticed it was so funny how people show this excessive deference for time for somebody of senior rank, which I thought was so interesting. Yeah, true. And one of the things that I tell people is, of course, I'm going to be busy. So you don't have to put that in there and just send it to me anyway.

I'll probably get to it. My roommate from when we were lieutenants at Kunsan Air Base in Korea, when I was at headquarters Pacific Air Forces, was in the building and didn't contact him because he figured I was going to be busy. And my wife, Shireen, saw him walking out of the building and go, why didn't you tell us you were here? He goes, I figured you were busy. I go, well, just tell us you're here. We will determine how busy we are. We can reprioritize and we'll make some time for you, but just allow us the opportunity versus not contacting us because you think we're busy. And these are your friends. Oh, exactly. Good friends. I was the best man in his wedding. So we know each other real well.

I find it so fascinating that I think bad leaders sort of like love the excessive deference. And I don't think they realize that by creating the excessive deference, they're actually disconnecting themselves from the truth. The least informed people are probably the dictators, the least informed people in the world, because everybody tells them what they want to hear. There was this great story I heard. I can't remember if it was the Six-Day War or the Yom Kippur War that the Israelis had completely decimated, I think it was the Jordanian Air Force before any plane left the ground. And nobody told the senior leaders, we have no Air Force. That's an extreme that nobody wanted to deliver the news. And I think this is one of the

things about democracy and good leadership. It's access to information. Because the people at the top don't have any of the information. It's the people in the front line that have all the information. The question is, how do you have access to enough information? Well, part of this is, your point is well taken, that it's difficult for people sometimes to bring a leader bad news or not the news they want to hear. But I think it's the reaction of that leader when you do get the bad news is

how folks will respond. The fact that if you're willing to take bad news and you're pretty, personally, I think I'm pretty even keeled. And there's only a small group of people at my front office that I'll go behind closed doors and really, really vent. But every time I step out of my office, it's showtime. And I really think about how I respond will determine whether or not I will continue to get good information from the lower level. All these tough things will pass.

And that's part of the leadership, balancing challenging situations. Because if everything is going well, they don't need you as a leader. You're here to help solve the hard problems as a leader. And you need that information to help solve those hard problems. You said something that I think is really interesting. You said, as soon as you leave the office, it's Showtime. I want to unpack that. Because I think a bad leader, they're not necessarily bad leaders, but the role that I think when people say it's showtime when you're a leader, they sort of play the movie role of the leader. But I think what you're talking about, if I understand by what you say with showtime, which is to be hyper aware, to make sure that you're creating those environments

where people feel like they can speak out and speak openly. Is that what you mean by showtime? Sort of the hyper-awareness? Exactly. As Chief of Staff of the Air Force, there's 689,000 active guard, reserve, and civilians. And you think about that, that there's a lot of people here in the Pentagon that see me, but when I go out different places, that may be the only time a young airman has a chance to see me. And how I act, what I say, can actually leave an impression on them that either I'm too aloof or God, he's a good guy because he actually stopped to say hello. I've got to personally work on that to understand those kinds of things. So, you know, stopping to shake hands, you know, now that everybody has a camera in their pocket, you know, stopping to

take selfies with people and never wanting to disappoint when they, you know, the one chance they get a chance to see. And this kind of reminds me of, you know, something that Michael Jordan said, he always wore a suit going from the hotel to the bus and from the bus to the stadium or arena, because that would maybe the only 15 seconds one of his fans would see him. And he left an impression. And I feel the same kind of thing. Maybe only those 15 seconds and you leave an impression and how you respond, how you act. And that to me is important.

The impression you leave as a leader that you respond, how you act. And that to me is important. The impression you leave as a leader that you want to be accessible to, you want people to come talk to you and they don't feel intimidated by the position. And I think the last thing I'd say on that is, and my wife, Shereen, I talk about this all the time, is that we're just ordinated people with an extraordinary opportunity. And so I'll just say, I do not necessarily like the pomp and circumstance. I don't care for it, but I know it comes with the position. I enjoy serving and truly making things happen, but the other things that go with it, sometimes I could honestly live without. People have such a gross misunderstanding of the military, of military culture, of those who wear uniforms. They think it's all excessive

control, command and control. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. And so like everybody's sort of walking around like an automaton, which of course is not the case. And also, I think there's a lot of A-type personalities and probably the belief that extroversion is sort of what you have to be. How has being an introvert helped you in a DoD career? I think it's helped me partly because of the aspect of being a listener. I think also, you know, I have an engineering background, my degrees in civil engineering, being more analytical. And so when you do speak, ideally, you're hopefully going to say something that's going to be thoughtful and resonates versus those that might talk a lot and all the time. And they may think out loud. And there's I mean, there's a balance there. And there's folks that think out loud. I think you've also got to understand those that are thinking out loud. That is not the final answer. Right. You've got to continue the dialogue because they're thinking out loud versus as an introvert.

Now, that can also be intimidating too. And I also realize I've gotten feedback on that, that I can be very intimidating. Sometimes I don't say anything. It's just, I'm thinking about what you've just said and trying to take it all in. And so there's some pluses and minuses to it, I think. I've definitely felt it. I've talked to you in the past where I got no reaction. And so I just kept talking, which is probably not helpful because you're processing everything

that's coming out of someone's mouth. And if they're feeling dead air, I'm assuming that for the introvert, it's more stuff to process. No, you know, actually, I actually, I find value in it too, because it actually helps me to think. But maybe one of the downsides, because I don't speak up, I don't speak up in the moment because I'll mull things over. And I remember one of your podcasts, you talked about the four feet around us. And then it's the

infinite space you have when you let time pass and you just sleep on it. That's what happens to me. There's things that happen in a moment. But if I got a little time between the conversation and I will come back and go, OK, and I really start to put things together. And I mean, that's the value of hearing all those things for those that are thinking out loud, because it does, it does force me to think it's just that I'm not maybe communicating as much as I'm thinking through this. And that's the challenge at work. It's a challenge at home. Cause my, when I come home from work, you know, Terrine says, if you, when I'm don't say anything, she goes, well, did you use all your words today? And I go, yeah, kind of, I did. And so there's a bit of a challenge. What you're referring to, which is the conscious brain has access to the equivalent of about

two feet of information around us. So when we access our expertise, when we weigh the pros and cons, when we sit in the brainstorming session, this is what we're accessing, our expertise. But our subconscious brains have access to the equivalent of about 11 acres of information around us. Every conversation, every book, every movie gets filed somewhere, but we don't have conscious access to it, which is why when we go for a run or we stand in the shower or lying in bed or driving on our commute, all of a sudden it's as if like lightning, we get struck with the answer.

And that's because the brain is ruminating. It's not thinking, it's ruminating about these challenges or these questions, and the value of the brainstorming isn't necessarily to solve the problem. It's to raise the question because our brains won't ruminate about random things. It'll only ruminate about things that are weighing us down. One of the greatest things I've learned is to not make the decision of something important if it needs to be weighed, like even if it's just a small period of time to allow my brain to wander, you just do it

more consciously, it sounds like. I mean, yes and no. And I think it's, because I do, when I go work out, when I run, I'm usually listening to podcasts and books. And sometimes it resonates. And sometimes I'm thinking about something else and I have to go back and spin it back 30 seconds to remember what they were talking about. But I also, the other part of my day-to-day calendar is building in a little bit of time to you know read think and we talk about building white space into our calendar and you know the challenge of going from meeting to meeting to meeting the meeting is you don't have that time to think to ruminate to dig a little bit deeper on a particular topic as you're going from one one thing to the other so i think it's important

particularly as a senior leader that for any leader that you build in some time to think and ruminate on some of these thoughts that you're going to have. And so you're not reacting in the moment. How much do you schedule and how much actually survives? I use lunch every day. I just eat lunch and read. My staff will actually schedule extra time for meetings to run long that I can control. If I know I need more white space, we'll schedule an hour for a meeting that probably is going to take half an hour. That way I have extra time in my calendar. If I want to go a little bit longer because of the topic is very interesting, I can. If it's something where I go, I got what I need and I can cut it off at half an hour and then have that extra time to go back and spend time thinking. I think the other part, too, is just, you know, there's a number of social events I have as well.

Probably a couple of two, three nights a week. There's a number of social events I have as well, probably a couple, two, three nights a week. It's also learning to say no in certain areas just so I have some downtime at home or on the weekend to be able to do personal time, but also to think. Change tack slightly. I remember after George Floyd was murdered, you made a statement that stood out, to be honest. statement that stood out, to be honest. A lot of leaders made statements about the news of that day, and yours was so deeply personal. A, what made you make a statement like that? Because here you are, the senior most person in the Air Force, you're African American yourself, so there's a different point of view than other senior leaders may have. What motivated you to go so personal? There's a bit of background I'll share, but really it was my son.

Our youngest son, his freshman year of college, he went to Washington University in St. Louis. His freshman year of college was at Vance and Ferguson, Missouri, which is about a mile or two away from the campus. At the time, I was the commander of Pacific Air Forces and had already testified before Congress in my confirmation hearing, waiting for confirmation to be the chief of staff of the Air Force. We were in Hawaii and our son was here in Washington, DC. And he called us on a Sunday and he was really struggling with the death of George Floyd. And because I was waiting for confirmation, I was kind of in a little bit of a quandary of saying or not saying anything.

Matter of fact, members of my staff had actually on Facebook and others, folks were writing. I wonder what General Brown thinks. Someone responded, well, he's waiting for confirmation. He's probably not going to say anything right now. So when our son called us and because he was struggling, he asked me, hey, Dad, what is PACAF going to say? You know, Pacific Air Force is going to say. And what he's really asking me is, Dad, what are you going to say? That really hit me pretty hard because he was struggling. And if I could have reached to the phone to hug him, I would have. And so I thought about it for

a day because I was told when I came back to work on Monday that I was going to get confirmed, Monday, Tuesday, but it didn't happen. And I finally said, I'm just going to do this because in my heart, I felt I needed to do something and say something. And my intent here was to do this video really for the Airmen of Pacific Air Forces with no intent of it going as broad as it did. But I'm glad it did because I still get feedback from when I cross paths with people and that cross paths with me on how that actually helped them, motivated them, said some words that they hoped would resonate with others.

It was really because of my son. I mean, I probably would have said something eventually, but he really worked me to do it at that moment. And in my heart of hearts, it was the right thing to do. I realized I was taking a risk, but I think that's part of leadership that you do have to take risks sometimes to do what in your heart thinks is the right thing. I mean, I was inspired by it. I think also,

and I have to believe that you know this, which is you are a role model to other African-American people in the military. I was astonished how few black officers there are in the Air Force, in the military. And I know you've spoken about it quite a lot, that you were the only African-American in your squadron, you were the only African-American in your class growing up, and you didn't have role models who look like you. And now you are that role model, the first African-American chief of staff of any of the forces. I mean, you've been nominated for chairman and be the second after Colin Powell, but that's been, I mean, what, 30 years. When you talk about leaving the office and sort of, you say it's showtime, is that part of what goes through your mind as well? Do you recognize that there's a whole group of people who are paying particular attention to you to learn from you, to follow you? I would say yes

and no, because as I came into the Air Force, I want to be the best officer, the best F-16 pilot, the best commander, not the best black officer, best black F-16 pilot, best black commander or African-American. I think part of that is based on my parents who I owe a lot to and the things that they were able to do. You know, one of the things I've also shared is my, you know, my father is a bit of a barrier breaker. He was the second African-American to be commissioned out of ROTC at St. Mary's University in San Antonio. His brother was the first and the two of them together helped set a path and they're both retired Army colonels, but it's the aspect of you can be anything you want to be as long as you put your mind to it.

And one of the things I think is important for me in this position is I believe people only aspire to be what they see. You never decide you want to grow up to be something you've never seen. And ideally, by me being in this position, I show that a young person, yeah, you can do this, whether you look like me or not. The aspect is the door is open for many. And, you know, I'm probably there's probably a number that have been qualified before me. But I'm the first to have the opportunity. I want to make sure that I'm not the last one to make sure the door opens up for others, not just at this level. You know, not everybody gets to be the chief of staff of the Air Force or be nominated to be the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, but opening the door and keep the door so that everyone who joins our military can reach their full potential.

And that's what my focus is by being in this position because I think that's important. The other chiefs that I've had the honor of meeting, when the doors are closed and the microphones are turned off and they begrudgingly admit the same thing, all of them, which is they all came, they got sworn in and they had a vision of something that they wanted to accomplish while they were there. And the distractions and the daily fire putting out that they went their terms, and they never got the thing, they never got to do the thing that they tried to do. When you were sworn in, were you prepared for just the daily fires that come into the job? Were you prepared for that level of intensity? And how have you been able to maybe stay above that frame, stay focused on some of the things that you know previous chiefs well-intentioned just couldn't get to? I felt like I was fairly prepared having served in operational leadership positions where you have a crisis every day. I had some pretty good mentors when I came to this position. One of the things they highlighted to me was,

you're going to pick some things that are for your project, because this job is for your tenure, but you're going to have things that come your way that you don't have any control over, that's going to impact your vision, and you just got to be prepared for that. And so, you know, when I came in, you know, I interviewed with the Secretary of Defense and the President of the United States. After that, those interviews and knowing I was going to be the next Chief of Staff of the Air Force was COVID started. The Space Force also stood up in that time frame. George Floyd was killed. You had these factors that aren't part of the vision. And now you're trying to figure out how do you actually still be able to execute? And so I think as you have the vision,

it's not being so prescriptive in the vision of where you're trying to get to, but it's actually having a bit of a destination you're trying to head to and realizing you're going to have to detour a little bit to get there, but really keeping the motion going and the momentum going in certain areas.

I really believe that when you're doing things, success breeds success. And so you've got to, you can have the big vision, but you got to start small in some cases to have some success to get those that are watching to buy in because you have your earlier adopters and you have your laggards. And what you want to do is actually have some success, get the early adopters, have them buy into this and then continue to push yourself in the idea for it and being willing to adjust,

knowing that the vision and reality, when they met and marry up, you've got to be willing to adjust the vision, but be able to communicate how you're changing the vision. Do you have a specific example of something where there was either a distraction or you had to take a detour? Sure. I wrote Accelerate, Change, or Lose, and I appreciate your help as we work through that. And I wrote four action orders, A, B, C, and D. One was on airmen, how we develop airmen. Two was on bureaucracy, how we cut bureaucracy. C was on competition to better

understand the geostrategic environment of our adversaries. And D was on design implementation and how we transition to a future air force. The one I was probably most visionary about and had the most difficulty is cutting bureaucracy. It's the aspect of how we do business. I will tell you, we've made some progress in certain areas, but you continue to gravitate back to a very bureaucratic process. And I realized that we can get people in the room and have a conversation. There's probably more things we agree about than we disagree about. Too often we're talking past each other, not to each other. And so that one I've had to continue to adjust because I had this vision that, you know,

if we could be more efficient, we could actually cut some of the manpower and put that manpower back out into the field. And it is extremely hard to do. So I've had to adjust. We've made progress in certain areas, but it's a cultural piece. And that's a part of not just the Air Force, but just how Department of Defense and things in Washington, D.C. work. I realize it's a challenge, but I don't want to give up. I really believe that you've got to keep pushing on areas because we are making some progress and gaining momentum. And that's part of an area that I continue to focus on. I will continue to focus on no matter what I'm doing because I just

hate bureaucracy. Do you think you can break bureaucracy without a crisis? I remember when our guys were being killed at uncomfortably high numbers by IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan, the speed at which the MRAP, this armored vehicle that was mine safe, was developed and deployed was insanely quickly. Can we have innovation? Can we dispense with bureaucracy without crisis? Actually, that's the best way to cut to bureaucracy and get innovation is a crisis. And so one of the things I've said recently is what I want to try to do is create a crisis before there's a crisis and how to paint the picture of the things that need to

happen before we get there. Being articulate what the risk is, there's a risk of doing nothing. And so what I try to do is paint pictures and create a crisis internal to ourselves before there is a crisis we have to deal with. That's so rational. The whole idea of crisis is that your blood pressure goes up, you know, that someone walks into your office with their finger in your face. And when we think about sort of the challenges that we've had with just convincing people

about climate change, for example, the scientists were making a rational case and trying to explain to us about the crisis before the crisis, and it's still not working. I'm genuinely curious if creating crisis before the crisis, how does that work? How do you do that so that you can inspire action amongst people who ordinarily might've pushed back or just waited? Yeah. So the way I do it is I keep tight suspenses and I know if I give someone a project or something they're working on,

they're not going to finish it in time. So I use two weeks and 30 days and I make people come back and see me. By doing that, it actually puts pressure on the system to actually, you know, because if they know they're having to come see me, that means they can't come back every, you know, two weeks or 30 days with nothing's changed. We're still having difficulties, but we're still thinking about what we're doing. By coming to see me, I'm driving a bit of a crisis because they feel like they've got to make some progress. Now, I want to be involved in the process too. And that's part of why I tell them I'm an action officer just like they are. I'm just a little bit more experienced. So I want to be involved because when it's all said and done in the end, we collectively will own it.

And I have a hard time getting my head around something that someone's worked on for eight or nine months and they drop it on my desk and go, we've got a great plan. I go, oh no, we're not doing that. So it's an aspect of being involved in the process, I think is how you, as a leader, drive this internal crisis because you set a comeback every 30 days to give me an update and they feel like they've got to continue to deliver. I really like this. By staying involved in the process and not waiting just eight months for them to come back to you and who knows what you're going to get. You're adding pressure, and that's the emotion. Pressure is the emotion because they know they have to demonstrate progress every two weeks to 30 days when they come see you. That also, I guess, requires you to prioritize, right?

Because you can't do that for every project. You can only do that for a select number of projects. That is true. I have to balance the ones that I think are important. There's others that I will delegate down. When you're in leadership, too, you've got to be able to, I call it a three eights. You've got to be able to delegate, tolerate, and iterate. You've got to delegate to the lowest capable and competent level. You've got to tolerate because they're not going to do it exactly the way you

would. And then you've got to iterate, which means you've got to be involved in the process. You can't just give your intent and wait until they drop it on your desk and go, that's not it you got to be involved which is why you know the two weeks and 30 days piece and i think that it's a dialogue that goes back and forth and it really it's important to me because i know something they don't and they know something i don't and by us iterating and talking to each other it helps and you know matter of fact when people come to brief me they usually don't breathe you know i look at the reader heads i I read them, and then I'll go, okay, we're going to talk. And I'll ask them questions. They get to ask me questions.

And at the end of the meeting, I'll go, is there anything in your brief that you wanted to say that we didn't talk about? Typically, there may be, you know, a couple points or two. But we walk away a bit more of a mind meld versus a, you know, me in receive mode. And then I'm just handing out edicts of things to go do. Hopefully they get inside of my head now a little bit more because we're having a dialogue. And because of that, then the next time we get together and we've taken it a step further, it's not only the question I asked, but it's the question I should have asked that they will then, because they know I'm curious because of the questions I asked in

the previous meeting. I love this, this concept of the lowest capable and competent level. Now, this is the opposite of what happens in private sector, which is we go to the highest level of capable and competence. We invite the senior people in to brief whatever thing that's going on. And you said lowest level. So just walk me through how that works. Are you actually assigning work to more junior folks than others would in your position? Give me a specific example of how this functionally works, of going to the lowest level of capable and competent. You try to assign it to a lower level,

but with our system, it's very hierarchical. And so I will give it to a lower level, but I expect many times is for the individual who actually is the expert to be in the room to brief it so that their boss may be in their room, but their boss doesn't have to actually be the briefer because they don't know all the answers. I want them to be part of the conversation. I want them in the room to be part of the conversation, but I like the person who's actually doing the nug work to be talking to me because I may be asking for something that's almost, you know, I wouldn't say impossible, but it's really challenging. So I'd like to understand if what I'm asking for is actually realistic, how much time is it going to take you? Or give me some insight of what the, you know, what's the word on the street? What do people

think about this that we're trying to get done? And I get more value out of that than sometimes talking to a senior member because a senior member, depending on the individual, sometimes they'll sugarcoat it. Sometimes they'll be very candid with me. But if I really ask this young, younger airman, you know, NCO officer, and I show a real interest and candid with them, they can be candid with me. That's what I'm looking for. Because that's how I get my feedback on how we're doing things or not doing things. I think the last thing I can say on this is, one of my counterparts, another Air Chief, said, good ideas have no rank. And that is true. There's a lot of good ideas.

And unfortunately, sometimes they don't get to me or someplace else because we older people have baggage, you know, senior leaders have baggage experience where a young person will see it kind of a clean slate. And it's important that you get that clean slate look because they will highlight something you've maybe missed. And we've always done it a certain way and look at it from a different perspective. And that to me has been exciting to watch our airmen do that. When you give them the power to go say and do things, come up with ideas, they've come up with ideas that we probably would not think of. And it challenges us. Why do we do things the way we do today? And I value that. I hope you realize just how different this

is. It's way more common for that frontline operator to brief their boss to brief the boss. And for you to have their boss in the room, but to invite that person who's actually doing the job to come and actually give the briefing, that is not the norm. And I absolutely love that. It does multiple things. A, you get access to the source of the information. You get to ask difficult questions to somebody who actually knows the answer. And they don't have to, I'll get back to you with that, sir. And they can actually tell you the answer. But also, it must do tremendous value for that more junior airman to be able to go back to their friends and co workers and say, I just briefed the chief of staff. And he was interested in what I had to say, because then that word spreads that they have

a voice that they that they're actually included. They're not just at the bottom, of like nameless, faceless airmen, that they actually are involved in the movement of the United States Air Force. I hope you know that that's very unusual in large organizations, especially large hierarchical organizations. Some of the bosses don't like it either, because they want to QC what's going to you know, I just want to have a conversation. One of the first things I see is they'll have the practice brief for the practice brief for the practice brief. And then I pull it out of the water when I'm out and say, okay, let's just have a conversation. And I love the value of it, too, for multiple, multiple levels. What it does for the culture, but also what it does for you.

You are better informed as a senior leader because you're getting the actual information from the people who actually have the information. You talked about your inspiring father and uncle. Can you tell me a specific story about a childhood experience you may have had where something that they said or something that they did that helped you decide that you wanted to have a career in the military? When I was in high school, I had pretty decent grades. And my father said, four years in the military will not hurt you. And that's a quote. And one of the things he said to me was, you will get to see things most kids only read about. And I think about my own career. There are so many things that I look at my own biography and the experiences I've had that I go, I mean, how do I get to do all

that? And so I pinched myself on the aspect of the things I've been able to do. Your dad was in the Army. Your uncle's in the Army. Both pioneers in the Army. What made you choose Air Force? Oh, this is, again, my dad. I was getting a degree in engineering. And he said, there is no guarantee you'll be an engineer in the Army.

If you go Air Force, they'll make you an engineer. So I went Air Force. I actually almost quit ROTC after the first semester because they really wanted me to be involved. And I wanted to hang out with the guys in my dorm, play intramurals with the guys in my dorm versus with ROTC after the first semester because they really wanted me to be involved. I wanted to hang out with the guys in my dorm, play intramurals with the guys in my dorm versus with ROTC. But then I got a ride in a T-37, one of our trainer aircraft, and did a bunch of acrobatics between my sophomore and junior year of college. And that rocked my world. That's when I decided I wanted to become a pilot.

And I still got the degree in engineering, but going to pilot training and then flying F-16s most of my career. And I mean, I've been able to fly, you know, 20 different aircraft. I still get to fly today. And it's, I mean, just so many opportunities I've had that because of that one comment of, you know, four years in the military will not hurt you. Now it's, I've been over 38 years. This young generation that's coming up now, they seem to have tremendous impatience. And I talk to kids about taking a gap year even, like just take a break between high school and college, see the world a little bit, travel, work, volunteer or something. The answer I get back a lot is I'm going to waste time or I'm going to lose time or I'm going to fall behind or others will be ahead of me as if it's some sort of competition.

What's so interesting is your dad said four years won't hurt. And I can't even get kids to take one year. How do we get young kids to want to try and serve for a little gap before or after college just to test it out? And it doesn't have to be the military. It can be Teach for America. It can be the Peace Corps. It can be absolutely anything service-oriented. Part of it is showing them the opportunity. And it's also when you think about the opportunity to show a path to someone who's done whatever that is before them and has gone on to be successful. Because there are very many different paths to a successful career. And I would say also a successful career is not necessarily defined by how much money you make. It's defined

by the satisfaction you have of what you do and how you contribute in whatever form or fashion. It's the aspect of being able to use the term early role models or others who have gone a path that is very similar. They've gone to serve in the military for four years and gone on and done

something else to be very successful in a different career path or because of that foundational work. Or if it's Teach for America or if it's for the Peace Corps, because we have examples of those. And those are the things I think we've got to do more of sharing with young people. So they have and show what those opportunities might be that they may not be aware of. It's part of those of us, you know, a little more senior, the influencers, whether it's a family member, school teacher, guidance counselor, coach, scout leader, someone in our life that actually can connect the dots with them to go, here's a way to do this and still be successful. And here's some examples of others who have done this.

You've been nominated for chairman of the joint chiefs. I can't have you on here without asking you the AI question. you on here without asking you the AI question. What is it about AI and its role in the military that both excites you, but on some level, it also scares you? What excites me about AI is its ability to take large amount of information and decipher that information to get to the things that are pertinent to making decisions. Because you might imagine at this level, you get a lot of information, but how do you parse through all that information to determine what's the things that are pertinent to making decisions. Because you might imagine at this level, you get a lot of information. But how do you parse through all that information to determine what's the things that are really important you need to know? And so as you build out these large models, how do you use all that data and then be able

to set the right algorithm so you can ask the right question? Then you're able to get the data that's going to be helpful to you. I think that is going to be helpful because it'll speed up the decision-making process, not only for day-to-day decisions, but if we ever get in a conflict, the ability for AI to help us do decisions much more quickly in defense of our nation. I think that to me is important. What makes me nervous about it is we've got to build a level of trust into AI, knowing that there will be those that will use it for nefarious purposes. And so how do you know that the answer that you're getting is it's only as good as the data that it was using? And if you have either false data or others are using AI for nefarious purposes, I mean, how much do you believe?

I mean, I joke about it. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. I think the same thing could happen with AI. Don't believe everything that AI is telling you. I think there's going to be some tension there. And I'd also say, because there is no, right now for AI, not necessarily norms of behavior to say what is ethical and moral, because there's going to be somebody who's going to use it for nefarious purposes, guaranteed. Have you played with chat GPT? A little bit, not a lot. I've had some folks use it to assess me based on what others might think about me. We've also. What did they ask and what did it say?

About my leadership and the perception of my leadership. And so it's, I thought it was pretty close. What did it say? I'm going to pull it. I want to pull it. I mean, it's the aspect that I'm a, I am a quiet leader. I'm thoughtful, methodical, analytical. I mean, I rock the boat, but I don't do it publicly. I'm probably doing it behind closed doors and strive change. So I thought it was fairly accurate.

I'm just typing it in right now. I just pulled up chat GPT. And this is what it says about you, that you have demonstrated several key leadership qualities throughout your career. One, you're visionary. General Brown has shown a strong ability to envision the future and set strategic goals. He emphasized the importance of fostering a diverse and inclusive workforce and addressing the challenges of the evolving global security landscape. I think we've actually touched upon that. It says you're inspirational. He has the ability to inspire and motivate those under his command, encouraging a culture of excellence and high standards. General Brown's dedication to service and his genuine concern for the well-being of his personnel have made a positive impact on the Air Force community. I think this is, I'll just use this

as your introduction when I record it later. It says you're collaborative, resilient, progressive. Overall, General C.Q. Brown is regarded as a visionary, inspirational, collaborative, resilient, progressive leader who has made a significant contribution to the United States Air Force. It's fantastic. I was going to say my mom would be really proud of that. It's good for the ego, right? It's really good for the ego. I find the decision-making part really fascinating. When you talk about we overtrust, I remember when the internet just started. People were like, where'd you learn that? The internet was considered a source. It's like,

oh, I read that in Encyclopedia Britannica. Somebody said, where'd you learn that? I learned it on the internet. And we went, oh, okay. That was a legitimate source. We fast learned that it's not. I think you're right. The same will happen with AI. That will start to become cynical about it. You're a consummate student. A, love to know the kinds of things you like to learn. Do you stay inside your own lane or do you like studying things that are way outside your lane? And I know you encourage others to learn as well. You have a leadership library that you encourage others in your command to learn.

How do you choose the things that go in your leadership library? Are they things that you have read yourself and you want them to read them? Or how do you put it together? When I started the leadership library, one of the things I wanted to do is, you know, folks, other leaders, senior leaders will have a reading list, but not everybody reads, you know, and so leadership library has books, has podcasts, documentaries, because we all get information a little bit differently. And so some of these are ones that I've actually read. Some of the first ones I had on there for one of my favorite books is Lincoln on Leadership by Donald T. Phillips. It's a book I learned about when I was a captain

just because of Lincoln's leadership in very complex times. Your book, The Infinite Game, was on there as a start because as I came in this position and it really, that book really resonated with me and so it's been not only books i've read but then i have others that can help contribute and as i do this i try to balance out the various topics and the different types of media that we use and some of the podcasts i listen to i go that was a good one and i will you know add it to the list we'll figure out how to how to get it in you Another one I really enjoyed was No Rules Rules, Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention. It talks about how Netflix came about and how it made itself.

There's leadership nuggets in each one of those. I've been pretty pleased with some of the things we've been able to put on there. And then there's others that, you know, ideally, I wish I had more time to read. I read a lot, but not necessarily for pleasure all the time. But I do listen to the podcast and I'll watch the documentaries. Or at least I have them in the back when I'm doing work. And they'll be things that really resonate with me. And I think my staff does a pretty good job knowing kind of what's on my mind of the things that are important to me and the things I want to make sure we're communicating from a leadership standpoint.

And they do a pretty good job of selecting. And they probably select more than we could ever use. But it's food for thought for all of us. One of my favorite things about you is you are unlike the mold of what we imagine the most senior leaders of our military to be. I think you show that the quiet leaders, the thoughtful leaders, not only are capable of making it to the highest ranks. You don't need necessarily all the bluster, but also that there's inspiration in quiet, in thoughtful. You are one of the bolder senior leaders I've had the honor of meeting. And I think conventionally people associate boldness with loud, but I know some of the documents that you've put out and the statements you've made push your airmen and they

push your military much harder than most others do. And I think because you are so thoughtful, everybody sits up because it's not just bluster. You completely break the mold of what we think a senior leader in the military should be like, and quite frankly, a senior leader in a large corporation. I know you know this, but I love it every time. Every time I talk to you. Your words are very humbling. I don't know. I guess I'm just lucky to be who I am. I am who I am, and it's kind of hard for me to be anybody else but me. We're the most qualified to be ourselves more than anybody else. That's true.

You and I had the pleasure of meeting back when you were at Aviano, and you were but a lowly colonel back then or just a general select. Right. And that's when we had the pleasure of meeting the first time I was invited to come and speak at Aviano. My goodness, how many years ago was this? This is a long time ago. That was probably about 2009, I think. Wow.

Okay. So it was a long time ago. And I remember standing on the tower with you watching the F-16s taking off. And I was struck back then as well, just the thoughtfulness and inspiration went together. It's been a joy to watch others see that in you and watch you rise to get the nomination for the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. It's so freaking cool. And our nation would be very, very lucky to have you in that role, let me tell you. Well, thanks, Simon.

As you might imagine, for me personally, it's quite an honor to be nominated to be the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. It's humbling, one, to be considered, but two, to be nominated and pending the confirmation in a few weeks. I know the job's going to be challenging, but I like a challenge. I like to be busy. I like to make things happen. And I'll have an opportunity to continue to serve. And it's something that, as I tell people, I'm not sure what I'm going to do when I grow up and take off this uniform, but I have a pleasure of being in the position I am and being able to make a difference,

not only for our nation, but also for our service members and their families. Do you have a vision for the job? And are you willing to share that vision yet? I think the vision is similar to what I did as the Air Force Chief of Staff. And it's the aspect of making sure we have a credible combat force that deters. In order to get there, you've got to accelerate some of the changes that we have to do and transform aspects of our force. If you think about what we've done over the course of the past 20 and 30, I would say 30 years, all the way back to the digital storm in the early 90s, we've been focused on the Middle East. And as we focus on our national security strategy, our national defense strategy, and the key challenges of the threats that we're up against,

People's Republic of China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, and violent extremists, we have to transform our military and continue to transform our military to stay ahead of our pacing challenge, which is the People's Republic of China. And what I tell people is I do not, with the pacing challenge, I do not want to be chasing the challenge. I want to make sure we stay ahead of the challenge. And that's my focus, is to ensure that we are doing the right things to make sure our service members have all the capability and also working with our allies and partners as well. And that's something that I'm very huge on, having spent most of my time as a general officer.

Well, actually all my time as a general officer, not in Washington, D.C., until I became the chief of staff of the Air Force, but really working with our allies and partners in the Middle East and Europe, Africa, and in the Indo-Pacific. And it's kind of a broad vision. I've got some ideas. I'm sure that they'll

continue to crystallize after I get through the hearing. But I am thinking through some things I want to be able to continue to work on and achieve as I'm still wearing the uniform. Sir, it's an absolute honor. Thank you so much again for joining. It really is a treat. And I wish you nothing but Godspeed. Thanks, Thanks Simon, it's always good to see you and always good to talk to you, appreciate being with you today If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more

please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website simonsenic.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.