A Bit of Optimism - Live Like You Have 2 Years Left with dancer and cancer survivor Angela Trimbur

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

You have two years left to live. What would you do?That's a real question Angela Trimbur had to answer. In 2018, a breast cancer diagnosis forced her to get honest with herself. If Angela had only 2 years to live, what kind of life did she truly wish to live? Angela chose to start over. She sold everything she owned, moved to New York City, and became a dance teacher. Angela's irreverent teaching style and unique approach to dance won her accolades, and she now teaches sold out classes where people use dance to find themselves.In this conversation, Angela explains why cancer actually helped her become a better version of herself. She shares how her disease enabled her to adopt a 2-years outlook on life, and why living as if our time is limited is always good practice, even when nothing appears to be wrong.This…is A Bit of Optimism.For more on Angela and her work, check out:Angela Trimbur Dance

This episode is brought to you by True Classic. I love their t-shirts. I've been wearing them for a long time before they became a sponsor. I personally like the V-necks and all of the basic colors. I like earth tones. I could get dressed with my eyes closed. It's pretty good.

But I love their stuff and I'm really proud to have them as a sponsor. You survived cancer. Yes. What kind of person were you before and who are you now? If I had two years left, would I want to say I stayed in my rent control department and I continued holding on to this great space that I have? No, I'd want to let it all go. I'd want to let everything

go that I own. I want to move to Manhattan and be a dance teacher. And so I'm like, okay, I sold everything and I moved with like $3,000 to New York City. What if you found out that you only had six months left to live? You'd probably start knocking things off your bucket list, empty your bank account and try and live life to the fullest. But what if you were told you had five years left to live? You might put some of those bucket list things off for a while. But what if you only had two years left to live? It's a strange middle ground, not enough time to waste, but enough time to do things

with more patience or intention. Well, that's exactly where Angela Trimber found herself after being diagnosed with breast cancer. The result profoundly changed how she spends her time, the path her career took, and the person she became. Angela replaced her chase for perfection and her need to control everything with a pursuit of joy. And now, through what she calls sentimental weird dance classes, she helps other people

tap into something they didn't even know they were missing. Angela has learned to live a life worth living, and she's teaching others how to do the same. This is a bit of optimism. You are one of my favorite artists, and I'll tell you why. I love art. I love all of the arts. I love dance. I love good theater, painting. I like photography. I like the arts. I like things that excite my senses. But the thing that I hate about the arts is the arts tend to be very exclusive and also make people feel like inaccessible is the word I'm looking for. In fact, you know, you talk to like symphonies or opera companies or even some dance companies,

ballet companies, and all they do is complain about how they can't get new people to come. And yet they're arrogant and distant. And museums the same. I've always said to friends, you know, the only reason you need to say why you like a piece of art is I don't know, I just like it. That's just where it starts. And one of the reasons you're my favorite artist is because you have made a career out of making art accessible. It is the least elite thing that you do, and the most welcoming thing that you do.

Thank you. Yeah, it's really like... To make something that I would want to be a part of is where that comes from. And I used to feel so, like, I want to spend time with artists and I'd go to a dinner party with them. And for some reason, I still felt like, why am I, why is there a disconnect? And it's big words are floating around. And I'm like, I don't, I don't know that reference, you know, just these things that made me feel smaller and smaller. I respect these people, but there's something that just felt, yeah, it feels like I drive home and I'm like,

wow, I should have said this, I should have said this. But just so creating a world where that feeling doesn't come up for anyone is just what motivates me to... In your training, you're not a trained ballerina? No, I mean my mom owned a dance studio when I was little. So I grew up in a dance studio, but no, I haven't trained since I was 12. Which makes it even better. I know, sometimes I want to study other choreographers' work and things like that,

but then I'm like, oh, but I don't want to start getting in my head and I don't want to learn counts. Like, I don't do counts in class. I think that's left side of the brain. Wow. Yeah, because it really is. So how did you start your... Because you do basically, I mean, I guess it's best described

as like pop-up classes. Yes. It's very guerrilla. Yeah, wherever I can get a space. Wherever you can get a space, you'll make an announcement on social media saying, having a class, whoever wants to come, come, and that's the class, and that's when it is, and that's where it is. There's very little, as you said, there's very little structure to it. How did that all start? Because I know your stuff, because

I know, I just know from social media, but I actually don't know your story, if I'm honest. Well, I think kind of like my first break into dance, so to speak, was back in 2012. I went back when YouTube kind of viral was a new word floating around. I had a dance video that went viral and it was called Dance Like Nobody's Watching. And it was just that I had something due for this brand, Hello Giggles, and it was like I was staring at like a blinking cursor.

I wasn't inspired. I didn't know what to do. And I'm like getting over a breakup, and I was sad about it, and I wanted to try to find some energy to push through because that was why I was depressed and not writing. And so I thought, oh, why don't I... I'm gonna go to the laundromat where we had a breakup, and I'm gonna dance, and I'm gonna put headphones in. And so I thought, oh, why don't I, I'm going to go to the laundry mat where we had a breakup and I'm going to dance and I'm going to put headphones in. And so I just went and I put

headphones in and I feel myself dancing and nobody looked at me or anything. Nobody even acknowledged me. And it turned into like, okay, dance like nobody's watching because nobody was. And I just shot it once and that was it. And I handed that in as what, instead of the writing piece. And then they put it up and it was like millions of views. It was on the news. Like, it was just this really crazy thing. And then it started, other people wanted to do dance, like nobody's watching. And so people are starting to like dance in public places

and calling it the same thing. And I did a few other ones. And so then that's when like casting directors would see me because I was acting at the time and like casting directors were like curious about me and bringing me in but as a dancer like just as this optimistic let it all go dancers. So that kind of like put me on the map in that way. And then I started a dance squad. We did like community, women's community basketball game, halftime dance shows, which was kind of like a really more performance art irreverent because we weren't, I don't know, there's just something

really cool about- You're not cheerleaders. We're not cheerleaders, but you have a minute and a half to infect joy to and keep the energy going. So the concept of like a half time dance I love, you can't go wrong. And so I did that for six years. And then I started- As a job? No. Just for fun? Just for fun.

With a bunch of friends. With a bunch of friends. It was an audition process. It was like a strict, like you had to be there every, you know, like it was a, that was structured. Yeah. And through that, then I also started doing these things called slightly guided dance parties. And that was like, because I went into a house party and I was seeing people in the living room, just bopping. They're just going like this. And I was just like watching. I'm like, why is every like, no one goes for it. There's always one person that like goes for it and they're like the drunk one or like the attention seeker.

But I'm like, no, they're actually the only ones really dancing here. And then that song came on that was like, throw your hands in the air, wave them like you just don't care. And everyone seemed relieved to know what they should be doing. And I was like, oh, that's what they just

need to be slightly guided. The song the song gave them the guidance. Yes. And I saw the relief and I'm like, oh, people just don't know what to do. So they're trying to exist without taking up space and dance. And so then I thought, what if I just made a slightly guided dance party and it would be me up there on stage, like slightly guiding people through our dance party. So it's like 60% guided and then I'd like leave you off

and then you have three songs you could do on your own, but it really worked and it was silly and I would give a little speech before to just kind of get everyone out of their shell, like don't try to be cool. There's no tunnel vision here. Like make eye contact with people. It would be, I'd call it like awkward prom and we'd start off with awkward prom.

And I'm like, you hold the other person this far away. Frankensteining. Yeah, exactly. You Frankenstein dance and then I say switch and then you find somebody else and it's to like, you know, all my life by Casey and Jojo. And so you're meeting like 17 new people and you're starting all these conversations.

And so like, that's the icebreaker. And then there's, I'd put on like juvenile, like slow motion. And then everyone's like, I was like, you have to dance in slow motion the whole song. And like, people would do that. And then we are gonna dance three songs on their own. But just because they had some guidance, it really kind of started that and then...

It broke the ice. So what I love about this is there's this magical creation on their own, but just because they had some guidance, it really kind of started out and then… It broke the ice. Broke the ice. What I love about this is there's this magical creativity in it, which is, first of all, everybody has… well, everybody. It's amazing how many people have the bumper sticker or the fridge magnet that says, dance like no one's watching. But it's an idea, but they actually does it.

And I love that you actually did it. Were you always that way? Are you sort of don't mind making a fool of yourself in public? Is that part of who you are? Did that show up? I'm curious why it showed up when it showed up. Is it just something you would, it's like, oh, it's Angela doing her thing again. Or was that sort of out of character?

It was out of character. I was really nervous doing it. It was just this thing where I'm like, I'm so depressed. How do I get undepressed? How do I get myself through this? And then I'm like, what's scary? What's scary? I'm dancing in public is so scary.

So then that's when I don't know what the light bulb was that made me want to do it at the Laundry Map. But no, I was like handshaking. So it wasn't like a creative idea to get your assignment done. No, no, it hadn't. That was what I was going to do to break myself up so that I could go back to writing. And then just decided like, well, I'll just hand this in instead. But no, I was really nervous.

This was before TikTok, obviously, and before Dancing in Public became such a... It's now a thing. Yeah, it's now a thing. So setting up a camera and then dancing. No, it was really nervous. I didn't do things like that before. You know, like it was just for me. I wasn't even gonna know what I was gonna do with it. Yeah, because I wasn't even posting things like that on social at the time. It was just for me. And I think that that's

kind of like, keeping things feeling authentic. Like if you're just doing it for you, or if you're making something because it doesn't exist, and you doing it for you, or if you're making something because it doesn't exist and you want it to exist, like those are things that have a purity to them. So we have to go down this path, which is you survived cancer. Yes.

How did it change you? How did it change who you are? Like what kind of person were you before and who are you now? Well. How long ago did you have it? I was diagnosed in 2018. I'm surprised, I don't know when I'm gonna cry

when I talk about things like that, but just your question posed that feeling. I would say before I was very controlling. I was really codependent, even with the dance squad that I had, because I was diagnosed when I was running controlling. I was really codependent. Even with the dance squad that I had, because I was diagnosed when I was running the dance squad, it was really like, we're family, we're all together, we meet this time, this is it.

No, you can't, you're gonna come late. No, you can't come late. I was like this dance captain energy. That was kind of a character, but not really, because I really had these feelings. In relationships, I was really like, who are you texting? You know, there was just this like grasp that I had on things. And that's just from like not being close with my family.

And when my family didn't really show up when I went through cancer, like, you know, my sister, we're close, but not super, we weren't super close at the time. And my dad and mom not, not showing up. My sister, we're close, but we weren't super close at the time. My dad and mom not showing up. It reminded me like, well, chosen family is like all I have. This is probably why I'm clingy like this to people. More of afraid of losing them. More of afraid of losing them.

Yeah. Yeah. So holding on so tight. Then cancer just kind of taught me how to not overthink. I had this therapist that, so I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2018 and learned that I had the BRCA gene, which is like a family, you know, you have to reach out to your family. And so that was when I had to like finally reach out to my mom. I hadn't talked to her in so long.

So it kind of like forced these dominoes to fall that I was kind of blocking and letting go of saying goodbye to like your breasts that represent motherhood, that are very sexual. Like I loved my breasts, like I thought they were perfect. And they were like my calling card. Like sexually, I like couldn't wait to undo my shirt and reveal them in their glory. And so to have that be like, now you're not going to have sensation there and they're

taken away and they're not going to be as attractive anymore and you don't have that anymore and I can't breastfeed. And so just all these things that I had as things I never thought I wouldn't. So you're kind of like stripped away from a lot of things that connected you to yourself and the future. And so there was a therapist that kind of came along with like Cedars has a, not a lot of people know this, like in the breast cancer community,

you have access to a therapist that's meant just for that. You have to kind of like know to ask for it. But I started working with one and she taught me about how the main goal is to keep your stress levels low. And so in life, but especially now. And so I'd ask her things and she'd be like, whatever makes you the least amount of stress, that's the decision that you make.

And so I started kind of like anything that made me feel tense, I learned how to kind of let go. And I would say in a nutshell, I just really learned about myself and how to be gentle on myself and how to let life unfold as it will that you can't control things. You have to trust the universe

and you kind of have to trust fall backwards and be like, I don't know what the plan is. I don't know what the lesson is, but I'm sure it's gonna make sense soon. And like when I was first diagnosed, all these survivors can't, you know, that I don't know. And they were like, trust me, you're gonna love who you become after

and you're not gonna regret it. You wouldn't take it back. And at first I'm like, yeah, right. This is gonna be awful. But in retrospect, I really like who I became. I say that I had an edge to myself. Like I was doing comedy. I was like making sketches and being funny and like always on.

And going through cancer really made me relax and I feel softer. I'm a little bit more of an observer sometimes and feel more wallflowery. And sometimes I miss the Xingzang girl, but I just feel I like the softer side. How did you learn to settle the mind? Because it's easier said than done, right? Oh, just make the, don't stress yourself and don't overthink things.

Like every overthinker over thinks about overthinking. Right. You know, it's like, stop overthinking, stop overthinking, you're always overthinking. like, like, what did you have to go to to actually settle the mind? Learning how to say no to things that don't sound like I think the pandemic kind of taught a lot of people that but I went through this before the pandemic, I just learned how you

have you don't want to do something that you have plans with, like, it's okay to cancel, like, because you're sick. So you kind of have an excuse, well, it was an excuse, but your energy levels, you're tired. Like I had this respect from other people, like, okay, she's literally in chemo. So if she wants to cancel plans, she can, but you don't have to be going through anything to do that. Like you don't

have to have an excuse. It's just whatever you need to get through. And I think I was always a FOMO person. I want to miss out. I can't let this person down. I'm going to go, I'm going to do this. I got to do that. Even if I don't want to, I don't know. There's just something that learning how to prioritize your needs was something I never really did. It was just acting out of fear. During the pandemic, we all, a lot of us learned that lesson. And then the pandemic ended and the lessons faded away. And we went back to the people we didn't want to be,

you know, productivity obsessed, you know, et cetera. I don't think as many of us have kept the lifestyle or the lessons that we imagined that we would now that it sort of seems so far away now, right? But you have kept it. You made it through the cancer, you made it through the chemo, and you didn't become controlling again. You are, your words, a different, better version of yourself. What have you done to not go backwards? Like again, I understand it in it, but after it, you've maintained it.

What's the mentality, what's the practice that you've been able to maintain the calmness, maintain the, and I have to believe that the dancing like no one will see you, when was that? That was like 2012. So that was pretty early. Yeah. That and that's also related to cancer. So I went through, because I was public with what I went through,

I had a lot of people that came up to me that would see me in public like, thank you so much for sharing. And my mom went through this. And then I'd say, oh good, how are they now? And they're like, well, it came back two years later. And I kept hearing two, I kept hearing recurrence after two years. And I was like, what is this two, what's the two message? Is it gonna come back for me?

And so I started thinking if I only operate as if I had two years left, and it sounds like it's a dark thought, but it's actually not because the timeline makes sense for anybody. You don't stay stagnant. You don't have six months. You're not bucket listing.

You're not blowing money. You're also not like five year plan where you're like, I have some time to get there like two years if I only had two years left. And so I asked myself when I was living in LA, if I had two years left, would I want to say I stayed in my rent control department and I continued holding on to this great space that I have and just kind of it's like what would I want to do? No, I'd want to let it all go. I'd want to let everything go that I own. I want to move to Manhattan and be a dance teacher. I want to say that I was a dance teacher in Manhattan. And so I'm like,

okay, I'm doing it. I worked on this show called Search Party and I lived in Brooklyn for the first time for three months. It was like a whole summer of filming. And as soon as I went there, I'm like, this is another sign. So I sold everything and I moved with like $3,000 to New York City. And I don't know how I did it, but I got an apartment and I started, I was like, I just have to start teaching. And through the dance following that I kind of built from all the other things I'd mentioned, because I started doing these dance parties at like the Mocha in LA,

and they were like 300 people coming. So I had like- Museum of Contemporary Art. Yeah, yeah. So I had kind of like a following. And then the classes, somebody from the Times took the class and bonanxed to me and asked to do like a feature on me when I was there.

And so after living in New York for two months, I had a Times article about my unique dance class approach. And then the classes ever since then were sold out. And now I'm- So this first of all, it's worth underscoring because it is such a profound thought, which is to live life as if you only have two years left. And as you said it, which is if it's a six-month sentence, you start bucket listing, you start emptying your bank account. But if you said if you have, oh, I've got five years, then you keep putting it off. And two years is sort of this kind of a sweet spot of like it adds some urgency, but not a crazy urgency and not a bucket list response. But rather, I've always wanted to do this thing that is

an investment rather than an event. What about you? What would you do to your... That's a great question. What would I do? I feel like you kind of live like this already. I think I kind of do...

I kind of do... I sounded like Christopher Walken there. I kind of do. I kind of do for different reasons. There's one thing that you said that I learned only pretty recently, which is I'm better at saying no, but the more important part is I don't owe anybody an explanation. And that's been very powerful for me, because I think very often, look, I don't want to lie. But when people say, can you do something for me? And you come

up with, well, I'm so busy. But at the end of the day, if I really wanted to do it, I'd find the time. Or canceling plans, because I either just change my mind. You know, I canceled going to a wedding. You know, RSVP, yes. No, it's not like the day before, but like three months, four months before the wedding, I just decided I didn't want to travel and I just didn't want to go, you know?

In that case, I probably owed an explanation. But I found that, like, I just say, thanks so much for inviting me, but I'm going to pass. But I found that I just say, thanks so much for inviting me, but I'm going to pass, or I'm so sorry to do this, but I'm going to cancel. And I don't have to text or say all of this stuff to justify my cancelling or justify saying no and tie myself to... The answer is I don't want to do it.

And that's it. And people are fine with it, I found. Nobody slams their hand on the table and says, give me the reason. I'm like, nobody actually cares. And that's the other thing I've learned, is nobody actually gives a shit about me at all. Yeah, people are on their own journey. They're always thinking. They're doing their own thing. And the only reason they get upset is because that somehow upsets their dinner table.

I had it planned for an even number and now it's an odd number. It's like, it's still nothing to do with me. It's their table, not mine. You know? So that's been a real, and that's a very new lesson for me. It's powerful too. It's not just the saying the no, it's that I don't actually own explanation. Yeah. Cause so many times you're like, Oh, I gotta go to this thing. It's like, why? Why do you have to go? Do you have Jomo now? Do you have the joy of missing out?

Is your FOMO, you still got it in there? No, I would say there's a joy of missing out for sure. There's just like a... Like everybody's at the party and you're looking at it on Instagram and you're just at home in your jammies with a tub of ice cream watching TV. You know, it's like, have fun! Yeah, yeah, exactly.

There's no, there's always gonna be another party. There's always gonna be, it's not a once in a lifetime opportunity chance. Yeah, no one's thinking, everyone's thinking about themselves, everyone's on their own journey. Let's go back to the dance classes. Because we haven't really explained to anybody what they're like. It's whoever wants to come. As you said, there's no like one and two and there's no counting.

No counts, no skill level. There's no skill level. Even the teacher has no formal training. The only skill the teacher brings is a love of life and the ability to dance like nobody's watching, which is what you do in spades. And what is so magical about your class is people living out these sort of childhood fantasies of, I'm going to be a ballerina and take, and like little kids dressing up to go to take their ballet class.

And your people, your students, they're dressing in pink tights and leotards. And it's dance class as if we're little kids. And kind of like little kids, nobody really knows how to dance and none of it matters. Yes. I teach a bunch of different kind of classes. Like one is called 13. That's the first one. My pitch before I teach is like, imagine we're all 13 years old again, and we're in a backyard.

And it's just my backyard because I have the corner house and it's the bigger backyard. But there's no hierarchy here. We're just all making up a dance and we're gonna show our parents before dinner. And our parents would be like, okay, that was interesting, go wash your hands. Like the stakes are so low, no one's better than anyone else,

no one's cooler than anyone else here. We're all like the same. And so that's called 13. And then the exercises, like for some reason, hearing that gets people, okay, there's no Beyonce's backup dancer here, like working mentally, like staying on top of choreo. Like, we're just telling a story and the stakes are low.

It's making the show for the parents at dinner. I mean, we've all done that. Yeah, exactly. You get it. Living room, recital vibes. Lipstick is makeup. Yeah. Sure.

Yeah. Sure. Yeah. And so those classes and then I went to a ballet class in New York because I did want to start immersing myself in the dance community. And I took ballet when I was a kid. I'm like, you know, there's something beautiful and elegant about it. And I went and I found myself bored in the class and no disrespect to ballerinas because they're athletes and what they do they've dedicated their entire lives to it but I'm in ballet class and I have to do like

little tiny things to graduate to like you can't just jump in and like we're gonna do some a piece from Swan Lake today you know you have to like graduate all these levels and I'm like I want to do this I don't care about technique I just want to wear the outfits and jump around and do arabesques and stuff. And so I thought, okay, why don't I just like create a beginner ballet class where we can pretend that we're professionals. And because all the, you know, center stage, Black Swan,

all these ballet movies that we're so obsessed with, it's because they're so unattainable. It's a world that you don't belong in because you had to have dedicated everything. Or you were rejected from it because you got boobs, or you had a bad turnout. There's also a lot of ballet trauma, which I noticed people that came to my 13th class afterwards,

they thanked me and they're like, I haven't been in a dance class since my ballet class when I was seven or 12. So I realized that some of the dance blocks were from ballet trauma from people. And they have this perfectionism stuck where they'll now they really don't belong because it's been so long and I can't. So that's when I started realizing, okay, that maybe there's a bridge here and I can start making this ballet core class. So ballet core, you know, is like this trend or core, cottage core. It's like you dress as if you live in a cottage, you know, fairy core, you dress like you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So ballet core became a fashion trend. C-O-R-E or C-O-R-P-S? C-O-R-E. Okay. And so I'm like, okay, I'll call it ballet

core because that's sort of the same thing. We're dressing like we are professional ballerinas. So that was the thing. And I'm like, oh, okay. And part of these movies are, there's always like the mean teacher that comes in or like the strict mademoiselle. There's always that villain in ballet movies. And I'm like, that's kind of also part of it.

So if there's a ballerina, like people would be like, my teacher was so, you know, whatever. I'm like, that's kind of also part of it. So if there's a ballerina, like people would be like, my teacher was so you know, whatever, I'm like, okay, maybe in order for me to show how playful this is, I need to play a role too. So I'm going to play the role of Miss Angela. So I like walk into the studio, and I'm wearing like an all black 1940s outfit. And I have sunglasses and a fake cigarette because all ballerinas smoke. So we have these like fake cigarettes and I come in, I slam the door. Everyone's like, new people are like, what's happening? And all the other people that have been here before like,

oh, and they get into this like, she's here, she's here, you know, and I'm like, bonjour, company. And like, I like act like this. and I hand out fake cigarettes to the new people. And I'm like, your role is to play like the rebel ballerina. So we're like the Mila Kunis of Black Swan, where the motorcycle in center stage where the rat kings of the Nutcracker, like we are the rebels. So I want you to feel like that. I want you to when I pass, I want you to pretend that you fear me, but also roll your eyes when I walk by.

Like, I want this to be a playful world that you can just be the lead in your own ballet movie. And so it really started working with people. They get it right away. We have like our little ballet bar warmup to like Unholy, which is like the vitamin strings quartet version of like this like sexy song. Part of it is like gossiping at the bar, twerking,

putting your ass crack on the edge of a ballet bar. We are pretending, but there is no technique. And there's also, it's not like a fuck you to ballet. It's more of just the pain that it caused, the exclusivity that it hurt me. I'm able to dance in it. Well, it's being a kid again, isn't it? Yeah, certainly.

Kids have no inhibitions, they do things that are fun and playful. Exactly. They don't care what people think about them, and it's bringing that back to adulthood. They can take off the masks and the edifice, and they can put it all back on when they have to go to work or do whatever it is they do.

But for this brief moment, they can be kids again. Yes. And the way kids are, dressing as a princess to go to school. It's true. Go right ahead, sure. Yeah. Because the illusion, even I found myself, I'm like, I want to buy leg warmers for this beginner class. And I wore them and it's dark. Who's the new girl? I was like, I'm going to take them off. I guess I don't deserve to wear them. Like, there's just something where I'm like, no, well, let's dress the way we want to dress like this. We want to play like this.

But it took on a life of its own, right? Because now you do summer camp. Yes. Well, also still with the ballet, by the way, like the choreography, it is not basic. It's not beginner choreo. It is like people see it and they're like, I'm not gonna be able to do that. And I'm like, no, no, no, you will because we're telling a story. So there's no lyrics to classical. And so I have to invent a story.

And so the stories that evolved are really like, one is like, you're a widowed spider and you're alone, but you're not lonely and you live in this forest and you're a really good web maker. Like you make beautiful webs all over the forest. Like if you have ever seen those like ones in Australia where there's like spider webs everywhere. I'm like, that's you. You make these spiders like spider webs and they're so artistic and huge. You don't do it for the likes or the follows, you do it just because you know

it makes the forest beautiful. So half the routine, we're weaving webs and like you're confident and there's like this like confidence that they have to go through too. And this like a web gets stuck in your foot, like doesn't matter, you're gonna take it off and throw it away in the wind. And then all of a sudden a bird flies over

and they're dropping a scroll and you catch it and you look and lo and behold, it's the mayor of the forest who wants to give you an award for all the art you've dedicated to the community and they wanna thank you. And so you cry because you feel seen without needing that recognition, but now you have it and you get crowned.

Like there's like all these like- Instead of memorizing the numbers and instead of memorizing the beats and memorizing the moves, you play along with the story. Exactly, so it's like all storytelling. And there's all... And it's like, it's not like, arabesque complete perroette. Like, it's like, grab the web and spin,

and it's spinning out of your butt. You know, like so... But there's also like a deepness to it. Like sometimes when I do that routine, like I'm actually crying because I feel like seen for the first time. And that story is you. And that story, yeah. I mean, I know you just made that story up, but that story is you.

I mean, you did the thing not for the likes and not for the follows. You did the thing for yourself. You did the thing to get over your depression. You did the thing for the joy. It just so happened that it went viral on the internet. It just so happened that there was a New York Times reporter in your class. It just so happened. It just so happened. It just so happened. And the success you've had is the unintended byproduct of doing something incredibly joyful for others. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all of the routines have

like storylines like that. And so that's semi-autobiographical spiders. They're all kind of like some semi-autobiographical. One of them is like the Capellias. It's from me when I was a kid, I worked at Macy's and I was 16 and I stole from Macy's. So now there's this witch named Macy and she punishes anyone that stole and now you're a mannequin and it's the 80s and you're stuck there but you realize you love living in a department store and like the community is amazing and at night you all come alive and you just jump on the mattresses like there's like all weird connections.

And then you just stole the script from the movie mannequin with Kim Cattrall. Well that's also- I'm old enough to know. I'm glad you know that because that- I'm old enough to know that. Yeah, that's the only like VHS tape I had growing I'm glad you know that. I'm old enough to know that. Yeah, that's the only VHS tape I had growing up. Because I was homeschooled growing up. So you stole from Macy's and you stole the story from Mannequin.

From 80s movies. Yeah, exactly. This episode is brought to you by True Classic. And if you've ever wondered why our ads feel different, it's because they are. We don't just read ad reel. We have real conversations with real people and make it into content that actually matters.

Let's go back. So you're a musician. Did you want to be a professional musician? I wanted to be a music producer. Okay, so you want to be a music producer. I played poker for a living after I failed in music. I went to Vegas and even though I was decent at poker, I realized very quickly that even though I was the best of my friends, I was the worst as a professional in the big leagues.

If I were to go back and take one good thing that came out of poker, it was the ability to fail because man, do you fail a lot in poker because even professionals that play for a living, they can go to streaks where they just lose for a month and a half and they just cannot figure it out. But they have to pick themselves up and go back and lose again. Get up the next day, go lose again. And you just really get numb.

Because if you don't get numb to that feeling, you're never gonna succeed in poker. It's just like something you gotta get used to. It's a big part of really breaking through in that industry. So that was one of the positives that came out of it. I built really good entrepreneurial DNA because as you know when you're an entrepreneur it's all you do is fail because it always leads you to the better answer and we're always seeking the truth and we're not afraid to be wrong. Ben and I will sit and argue for 30 minutes about something and all we're after is the truth. You know we don't care about something, and all we're after is the truth.

You know, we don't care about our egos. That's what's really good. We're able to pivot on a dime if one of us brings up a good point. And I think if you instill that in the culture, it's really good for progress. We don't have to go too deep into it, but I think it's these kernels of ideas that you

have that blossom. I guess they're seeds, not kernels, but these seeds blossom. Then you have summer camp. So now you're doing summer camp and bringing back all the silliness of going to summer camp when you're a kid. And you do a recital. And it's called recital. Like you take your ballet students and you book a venue,

you have a real stage with real audience, and people buy real tickets, and people can pay money to see, and it's usually family and friends, just like recital. And it's your students and you said they take it so seriously. And they practice and practice and practice just like we did as little kids because we're on stage for our friends and family. Yes, and it has nothing to do with your career. And the more serious you take it... And you've got doctors and lawyers and artists

and everything in your class. Not performers at all, really. Like some people haven't even taken the stage. I realize that that's like part of it. So if you're really a part of a ballet company that we claim to be, they're working towards something. So it gives us something to work towards. And there's this logic that I have from this too, where I'm like, like through dance camp, there's new friendships that form through the recital, I get to cast a routine. So we do

auditions and the auditions are everybody makes it you just have to audition that's how you sign up for the the recital and you have to wear a number and it's it's purposely scary but it's really not because the stakes are let you already know you're you got in but they go through this thing together where they're like I'm so nervous like why you know and they're wearing the numbers and they also still have their fake cigarettes and then they audition. And then I really spend like so much time really thinking like, what routine for this person? I know this person, this person should have the spider storyline. I think that they could use that storyline as something they continue to work on. I think that they're a little too obsessed with this success thing and like so that, or this person needs to have some anger. There are people

pleasers in this narrative. She's There are people pleaser in this narrative. She's really angry all the time in this story. So I'm going to make her also these two people will would make friends if they were to be getting together twice a week. Like I think that they'll become friends. So I'm casting, I'm cupidding. You're not casting for ability. You're casting for what you think, what somebody needs in their life. Yes. Which again semi-autobiographically, this was your healing. Yeah.

And you're now using your art to heal others. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so fun. And it's the core of what good art should be, right? Good art should be for others. If it starts being for yourself, or for the glory, or for the likes, for the followers, for the money,

for the whatever, it kind of misses the point. It dilutes things. Art is for people, which is why I hate that it has become elitist, and I hate that it has become inaccessible because it has become a self-licking ice cream, that it takes itself so seriously that it forgets that somebody else gets to come

and stand in the museum, and their experience is whatever they want it to be, and somebody gets to sit in the audience, and their experience is whatever they want it to be. And somebody gets to sit in the audience and their experience is whatever they want it to be, whether they're listening to something or watching something. And it's not about how great you are based on your standards, it's our fun.

It's our evening and it's our money. And so why not make it for our joy? Or for our journey, or for our, you can do complicated things, that's okay. You can do things that hurt or emotional or political, that's all fine. But this is what... Your art is so pure, which is why I think it keeps growing and growing and growing and why people want to be around it and want to be a part of it.

It's one of the reasons you're one of my favorite artists. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I feel really lucky. I do think that I have a calling for bringing people together. And the fact that it's my job now is just... Like, my two, you know, this whole two-year thing, I'm like, what would I do now? I'm like, I can't leave now. I can't go somewhere else. I have this dance community in New York.

I don't know what else. So I'm posing my question, like, what would I want to do now if I had two years left? But isn't... But hold on. I think this is the definition of a wonderful life, which is if I only had two years left, I would change nothing. Hmm. Mic drop. Yeah, you're right. Right. Yeah. If I only had two years left, I would change nothing.

Yeah. I want to be here. I want to be with these friends. I want to be with these with this family. I want to do doing this thing. I might tweak a little bit here and there, say yes to a with these friends. I want to be with this family. I want to be doing this thing. I might tweak a little bit here and there, say yes to a couple more things, say no to a couple more others, but fundamentally, I'm good. Yeah, well, you're right.

Just relax a little bit more. Tell me, whether it's a specific class or a specific project, something you did over the course of these last few years that was beyond magical. Like you absolutely loved being a part of it. Doesn't mean it was easy, doesn't mean it was commercially successful or successful at all, however you want to define it, but something that you were a part of that you absolutely loved and if everything you did, if every project you did from this point on was like that one thing,

you'd be the happiest person alive. Like the recital? Anything, you can pick whatever you want. I think the recital, I mean, that's the most recent thing that, so that's just top of my mind. Is it this specific recital above all other past recitals that stood out more? Well, this is just the second one.

So the first one, I think we were all a little baby deer-legged with it. And this year, the narratives got tighter, or they got deeper. There's OG students that kind of guide the new students, but the new students kind of remind the OG students what the excitement was and why we're doing it. I don't know, there's just some sort of specific energy with it, but it was really, really challenging too, because as a leader, people, they want to share everything that comes up

and you hold space and you listen. This year had a lot of that energy, people being nervous, people having to place people front line, back line, like, that's really tough. That I almost like didn't want to do the recital for that part because I'm like, it's not a big deal, it's not about that. But this person does tell the story really well and it makes everyone look really good because they're telling the story and so that trickles to this person who maybe isn't as confident in facial telling stories yet.

There's popcorn reasons and I have to tell it's not about the line placement, please. It's not about that, we're all together. But also, yes, you are there, you know, I don't know, there was just a lot that came up even for me, like, having to ask myself and the happiest person alive. I think it's because I got to see people change. Like, from the beginning of the process, even like their first ballet core class to the Recital, like they have so many friends now. Their confidence levels are skyrocketing. They're dressing the way they've always wanted to dress. There's just something about it where I'm like,

this is what it's about. Like, it's about the journey, doing opening paths for people. And like, when I watch, when I cupid people and I see their friends, I see them hanging out outside of class, I'm like, that's, I knew that one was gonna, they were gonna be friends. There's just something so satisfying

about seeing people coming out of their shell. And this specific year, it felt extra special with everything that's going on in the world. Like, feelings are so anxious. And so giving people a space where it's like, okay, and while we're here, we're focusing on this spider story or we're, you know, like there's something to care about that can be towards a goal. And working towards a team, we're all working as a team towards something.

There's just all, it like checks all the boxes of things that feel special. Tell me an early childhood memory, something specific that I can relive with you. Okay. Uh, happy childhood memory for anything I think of. I mean, my mom pulled my sister and I out of school when we were... When I was in fifth grade, and so I was homeschooled. She became a Jehovah's Witness and

I kind of feel like we got like convinced to get homeschooled even though like we were promised a lot of things like you can graduate earlier, you can wear your pajamas like all day long. Like I don't know there were just things that were oh cool but all of a sudden like no you also have to be a Jehovah's Witness and that's part of your schooling. Like you have to go door to door, that's public speaking, you have to read the Bible, that's history. So all of a sudden we were kind of like living a very trapped life. But my sister and I were best friends. We weren't allowed to hang out with anybody else really. We had only each other and every day at 3.15, like the bus stop was at the end of our driveway. And so we wanted to go back to school so bad.

And so we would like at every day at 3.15, we'd like go and we'd like watch the people get off the bus together. And I know it sounds like a sad memory, but that's just what popped up. Like sitting with my sister, like looking through the window at all the cool kids getting off the bus and like wishing we could be a part of it. I don't know why that's a nice memory,

but that's like a very vivid. That's almost 3.15. But that's something you did frequently. Yeah, almost every day. Is there a specific memory, but that's like a very vivid. It's almost 3.15. Let's go look. But that's something you did frequently. Yeah, almost every day. Is there a specific memory that I can relive with you? Well, for some reason, this just popped up. We didn't celebrate holidays or anything.

I remember being in my bedroom. So New Year's, I always had a fantasy about New Year's and I just put the clock radio under my pillow and, like, listened to the countdown alone, like, through the clock radio and hearing, like, the neighbors celebrating. I don't know. Wow, these are a lot of memories of, like, fishbowl, like, stuck inside of a thing wishing you could be a part of something else. I don't know why they seem like sweet memories to me, but they're very like, I don't know, times where I remember the most were when I'm self-soothing.

But it's very connected to the other memory, right? Which is to the other, to the recital experience, which is there is a fishbowl aspect to our lives, and there is a wishing we could go do something, or be someone, or change our environment, change our surroundings, and feeling like we're behind the window pulling the curtain aside, looking out at everyone, thinking, oh, if only.

And then what you have done is, and you use these words, which is you cleared a path, which is you gave people, you know, everything, which is you cleared a path, which is you gave people, you know, everything you say is helping people through out of over the fishbowl. You're slightly guided dance parties, which is come, come, come, I'll show you. Yeah.

You know, I'll show you the person you wanna be, that you can be. And it's not just a dance class for amateurs who aren't dancers. You play the mean teacher. You're in a movie because if you think about it, you know, we get our cues about the lives we want to live, for better or for worse, watching TV, watching movies, looking through the literal or proverbial, you know,

window for the fishbowl. And wishing our lives could be like that, and you create these fantasy worlds. And, you know, it is a perfect sitcom. It is a, not sitcom, romantic comedy, of, you know, boy meets girl, there's something that gets in the way, and they always fall in love at the end.

There's always a happy ending. And that's sort of what you do, which is you give people this unbelievable hope that life is actually pretty good. And sure, it's got you do, which is you give people this unbelievable hope that life is actually pretty good. And sure, it's got its grumbles and its ups and downs, but there is a happy ending. The way you describe your journey through cancer, you mean, like, you're giving people these paths to happy endings, you know? It is very fairy tale. Even the yarns that you spin, very fairy tale. Even the yarns that you spin, they're fairy tales, but the difference is, is you let people actually go on

the journey of finding themselves. And I find that that's what art that's perfect. Yeah, I really think that I think that the community of it all too, is really what is the most healing too, because to bring people together and to have a goal and to have a vision for it, people show up like trusting you and most people are really down to show up and explore something new. So you can like really have like a plan for people and, and, um, I don't know, this is just things that I'm learning, like, uh, regarding bringing people together. It's, and it makes me excited about life because the possibilities are endless. It

doesn't have to be a dinner or a party. Like you can make unique hangs and the dance classes are different because everyone's showing up up with an intention for themselves. So even an introvert is there and maybe they're like, I'm shy, I don't know how to make friends or I'm not good at talking to people, but they are forced to do so when we're doing the awkward prom. And it is a nice moment because everyone is guided into it. And sometimes we do like pass that Dutch, like that's like the Missy Elliott thing.

And we're like, you're just like passing energy to people. There's like all these games that force you to connect with someone, but in a way where you know that you're gonna feel better and more open afterwards. So it's not just like a dance class, you go and there's all these exercises to get you out of your shell. And then yeah, the narratives of all the routines that I come up with are something that someone should be healing through.

What's the difference between the healing we do that is visible and the healing we do that is invisible? Healing we do that is visible. What would be something in your mind that's a visible healing? Therapy. Uh-huh. OK. Dance class. I see. OK, so I think invisible healing maybe are the life lessons.

Like, you don't we don't get to see life lessons on somebody. We don't get to see like, oh, now I see why I made that mistake. You know, I think the healing just comes in like the aftershock of, of a situation you were in, and we don't really see it, but you'll see it within yourself. The next time something like that comes up and that you, oh, it doesn't, that doesn't sting as much. Or I didn't go back to that personality trait of this people-pleasing thing. I don't know. It feels like you don't get to see the lessons on other people.

Which is a reason why we should throw ourselves into things. Yeah. Because sometimes the invisible things that we don't really know that are going to happen and we may not be aware of them until later. They may not become visible until you've gone through it. Exactly. It all makes sense. Yeah. not be aware of them until later. They may not become visible until you've gone through it. And so as you said, you never want to go through having cancer again, but you like what happened as a result. Yeah, I really do. I really, really do. I think all the time what it would be like,

I mean, there's obviously things I wish, like I wish that I could have like, I wish that I could have kids, I wish that sex wasn't painful. Like there's like a lot of things where I'm like, it's not like I'm like, ooh, I'm in the, my best, like, but from an emotional standpoint, I definitely like my personality better. But yeah, there's a lot of things that I'm still like, oh, ah, I remember that. But yeah.

You are wonderful. I'm so glad you came on. I think you're a path illuminator. I think you're a door opener. I think you're a, let me pull the bushes aside and show you that there's a bit of a worn path that you can also walk down. You're not the first one. You're not the trailblazer. I'll show you. A slightly guider.

A guide slightlyer. Kind of like you and your sister as little kids looking out the window. For other people, those would be traumatic memories. And for you, they're actually quite warm. And I think the reason they're warm is this sense of not alone. You listening to other people, you're listening to the neighbors celebrate New Year's Eve, there's a vicariousness to it. You can actually enjoy the joy of others. And with your sister, what should be depressing, watching other little kids get off the bus, but you had each other that you could-

Yeah, it's like a bonding. There's a bonding thing. And I think you talked about your cancer and it's the other cancer survivors who be like, you'll like yourself better and the therapist who helped guide you. And these people keep showing up in your life that you now do for others as well. And there's this beautiful yin and yang, like I am the person that I'm looking for. And you've been very blessed that people have been there for you in these times that should be really stressful and even are really stressful,

but because someone else was there who's either gone through it or is just going through it with you, and that's what you do. You said the OGs will help the newbies, you know? And there's this... And the newbies help the OGs. And the newbies help the OGs. And there's this beautiful, and you said it before, community, that we have a responsibility to our fellow human beings,

both in short form and long form, in the immediacy of the interaction. Ask the barista how they're doing and actually care about the answer. Smile, hold the door. The lessons that you're teaching are, you're not the only person in the world, even though you feel sometimes like your problems are.

Yeah, take the tunnel vision away. And I think that's one of the reasons you're dancing like nobody's watching is everyone was watching. And that's what was so inspiring about it. Literally everybody watched it. Millions and millions of people watched you dance like nobody was watching. Yeah, yeah.

You know? It's very ironic, yeah. Yeah, you're beautiful. I think it's beautiful. I just think the whole thing's magic. You gotta come to a class. I know. Gotta get you there.

I meant to go yesterday, but I screwed up my schedule. We have a mutual friends we got to meet once before, but I've stumbled upon your work. I don't even know how, you know, I think just the magic of Instagram just showed me something and I was like, huh? And it was not what I expect, you know, it was bumpy and messy and human and imperfect and silly.

And the more I went down the Instagram rabbit hole of who you are and what you stand for and why you do it, it is art in its purest form. I think for me the lesson is what would you do if you only had two years left and live like that every single day? And thank you so much for sharing everything you've learned with us. It's good stuff. Thank you for having me. This is an honor for real. Thank you. This was lovely. lovely. A bit of optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced

by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, David Jha, and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you are trying to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonssonnick.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.