A Bit of Optimism - Purpose over Profit with Thrive Causemetics CEO Karissa Bodnar

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

How do you run a thriving company that cares more about impact than about profit and margins?Karissa Bodnar is a genius CEO who dedicated herself to building a cause-based company. Thrive Causemetics started out of her one-bedroom apartment and now it’s a massively successful brand that has donated over $139 million of value to those in need.We sat down to talk about finding your purpose, leading younger generations, and so much more.  This is… A Bit of Optimism.For more on Karissa and her work check out: https://thrivecausemetics.com/pages/our-story 

It's really hard to start a company. And as if there's not enough pressure just keeping the doors open, ensuring everything you do is consistent with your cause adds another level of difficulty. And this is why Carissa Bodner is special, because that's exactly what she did. She built Thrive Cosmetics to be completely cause-based and extremely profitable. Starting out of her one-bedroom apartment nearly a decade ago,

she has given away over $135 million to charity. So we sat down to talk about what it takes to lead a cause-based company and how a young leader leads, this is a bit of optimism. I don't know if you know this, you may know this, you are one of my favorite entrepreneurs. Thank you so much. You're one of my favorite authors. Oh, thank you very much. The reason you're one of my favorite entrepreneurs is because there's this new breed of entrepreneur that's coming up through the ranks that has a very different point of view about how business should run that is different from how our parents were told to run businesses or even how some of your investors or some of your mentors may be telling you how you should

be running your business. And you're trusting your gut and you're doing it differently. You care about people so much. You care about doing the right thing so much. And though finance is important to you, not at any cost. Yes. Where did you come to the point of view that you wanted to build your business differently than other people were telling you how to build it?

Honestly, it was accidental and really through my own spirit, I would say. Because when I was in the beauty industry, everybody that I was around, because I started as a makeup artist, they wanted to have their own beauty company. I was like, that's crazy. It's such a saturated industry. And where I found the deep purpose was in the way that beauty, whether it's makeup, skincare, hair care, made people feel and how it made them feel confident. Because I really believe that when we are confident, we're unstoppable. With the point of view around philanthropy and purpose and really caring about people, that came through a natural curiosity about people and what makes

them feel confident. And I found that in beauty. But I never, ever would have thought I would start a beauty company. The purpose behind Thrive Cosmetics was so much bigger than anything that I had ever thought of before. I get that. But imagining a business and building a business are not the same thing. And when you start to build a business, it's exciting at the beginning, it's difficult, and the pressures come in waves and the pressures start to set in, especially when you have others who are investing in you or even just people who are giving you advice, people who've already quote unquote made it. They will tell you things like pay yourself first. They will tell you things like- I'm laughing because I didn't pay myself

for so many years. Right. They will tell you things like use cheaper ingredients because you can squeeze some more margin. They will tell you to pay people less. This conventional wisdom about how to build a business, which is coming from these sort of 1980s, 90s Jack Welch, sort of Milton Friedman mentality. How old were you when you started your business? 25. Okay. So you're 25 years old. You can't claim that you know how to build a business. You were a makeup artist prior. And a product developer. And a product developer.

Can you tell a story at least of pressure that you got of how to do it the traditional way, a different way, and the path that you actually took, a decision you actually took? Absolutely. And on the note of ingredients, that's something that I'm deeply passionate about because I am the consumer. So to me, I work in the beauty industry because I freaking love makeup and skincare. I love it. And I'm a science nerd. And I love how it makes people feel confident. So I'm constantly being told by different people in the industry, well, you could really improve your gross margin if you did X, if you cut this ingredient or whatnot. And from my perspective, it's cut this ingredient or whatnot. And from

my perspective, it's like, I am the consumer. I don't want a subpar product. I want something that's excellent. The world did not need another mascara, Simon. We created something that was truly differentiated because my values are that you don't need to test on animals or use animal products in your makeup in order for them to be effective. And I care about products being kind to animals, the earth, humans, the people who are using them. So I am the consumer. And I also care very deeply about the impact that I leave on the world. And to me, it's just, if I'm putting my name and my time behind something, I need to really believe in it. This is an important little insight that I think is underappreciated, which is I am the consumer. I use my own product. And I assume that everything that you're wearing and all of your makeup and

skincare is your own product. I started with one product, Simon. And so it is, I am truthfully wearing All Thrive Cosmetics, but on the note of a great author one time talked about worthy rivals, I do believe that there's room for all of us to thrive in the industry. So I love other brands. All Thrive Cosmetics. But on the note of a great author one time talked about worthy rivals, I do believe that there's room for all of us to thrive in the industry. So I love other brands. And some of my greatest friends are entrepreneurs in the beauty space. But I think this is an underappreciated point, which is the number of executives of companies who don't use their own product. Cigarette executives who don't smoke. And then you start to see when big companies buy special brands, whether it's Aveda or Burt's Bees or all these companies that were really special when they started were bought by big companies and then their ingredients were changed to increase those gross margins. And the question is, are these executives allowing their children to use these products that they're now screwing with the ingredients?

I want to know this. Like, I want to know that the people I'm buying from are using their own product. Yes. Yes. Like I want to know that the people I'm buying from are using their own product. Yes. Yes. And I experienced that going through an acquisition prior to starting Thrive Cosmetics.

And that's why I'm so proud that I do own Thrive Cosmetics and now Bigger Than Beauty Skincare because I ultimately have control over the ingredients that we put into our products. And I have experienced that in the corporate world, in the beauty industry, where there is the cutting of corners to improve gross margin. And we've talked about this, that EBITDA equals freedom. I'm not out here not caring about the numbers. I have to care about the numbers. But truthfully, what drives me is innovation, giving people the access to things that may help them feel more confident, and the philanthropy. Tell me a story. Tell me a specific story of someone who captures what it means to be confident because of beauty

and skincare. Yeah. I'm so excited to tell you about Jessica because right after this podcast, I get to go surprise her. We are naming our new lipstick impactful after her. One of the, we name all our products after inspiring people. And Jessica is someone who inspires me so much. She is a working mom and she is tenacious in helping other people.

So she modeled for us. And she's not a professional model. We love to use people that are not necessarily models in our campaigns because ultimately the end user is a person who is not a professional model. We love professional models too. the end user is a person who is not a professional model. We love professional models too. But I remember when Jessica reached out, and I hope it's okay that I'm sharing this, but she was in tears. And she was saying, I have never felt beautiful until I modeled for Thrive Cosmetics. You made me feel seen. You made me feel accepted. And that allowed me to then go crush it in my job. And that's one example that really sticks out to me.

Airbnb, Sweetgreen, Thrive Cosmetics, I think you are sort of the part of this new breed of entrepreneur that is figuring out how to resist the traditional pressures. They're public, both of those companies now. And I think they're trying hard to reinvent how public companies work, where it's not just shareholder supremacy. Yeah. How do you think about that? Because I love being a privately held company and that's my intention for this business. And so when you think about these values-driven companies that are public, where do you think that's going to go in the future? Well, you're starting to see the ones that are being smart about it, where they're keeping

majority share so that they have voting rights. Yes. Which is smart. So they're not beholden as much. It's a difficult question because the amount of VC that is floating around in the private company world, and in many, many cases, private companies are functioning the same way as public companies.

The pressure, instead of coming from the external shareholder constituency, is coming from a local shareholder constituency. I'm thinking of one company right now, a very talented entrepreneur. I admire her company. In my opinion, she took money from people who she shouldn't have because they offered her a lot and they weren't necessarily values aligned, but she took the money. Flash forward, they put massive pressure on her to make decisions that she knew were either not consistent with her vision or quite frankly, bad for the long-term survivability of the business. They wouldn't let her spend money. And long story short, she recently got fired from her own company. She got forced out

of her own company by her shareholders. Which happens all the time. Which happens all the time. Especially with venture capitalists, because behind closed doors, they think that founders and the founding teams are replaceable. There's an irony here, which is, you know, private company used to be, quote unquote, better than public because you had more freedom, you had less pressure. But depending on how much VC someone takes, it operates almost exactly the same way. So, you know, those advantages of being private, depending on how much money you take, aren't necessarily there anymore. I do think that who you take money from matters. more. I do think that who you take money from matters. Simply taking the most money that you're given or from the most famous venture capitalist, that's bragging rights. I think you have to have values alignment. And it's a really hard challenge because VCs are selling to you as much as you're

selling to them. And I've heard the story so many times where, oh my God, no, my PE or my VC is different. They care about my vision. Flash forward three to five years, turns out it was all nonsense. So I think you have to do due diligence on these companies and these people. Are they really values aligned? Are they really willing to step back and sometimes lose a fight because you feel strongly about something? I mean, some of the best partnerships I've heard, Will Godera talks about this in his partnership at Eleven Madison Park, which is they reserve the right to veto each other. They're partners, which means they made decisions together. But every now and then, if something mattered so much to one partner more than the other, they were allowed very limited.

I can't remember if that was a fixed number. But basically, you get a card that says, I get to force this decision through because it matters to me. Oh, I love that. I love that. to force this decision through because it matters to me. Oh, I love that. I love that. And I love the idea of a VC giving a few of those cards to a young leader saying, there are going to be some times where I'm going to completely disagree with you, but you have three cards a year that you get to overrule me or push back. And I will fight tooth and nail, but if you put the card on the table, I'll shut up. And that to me shows respect. That to me shows

trust. That shows belief. One of the things that I've come to admire in the Marine Corps, which I think we need more of in business, is it's not just good leadership, it's good followership. And they play together. The best leaders are the best followers. So for example, when I went to Quantico, Virginia and watched how they train their young officers, what they're looking for is they look at the team dynamics and they're looking for whoever's in charge that day, whether assigned or unassigned to take counsel and then make a decision. But they're also evaluating the team, the followers, the subordinates, and they're looking to see that they're giving good counsel and they're looking to see if the leader chooses a decision other than the advice that I gave, so I'm going to tell you to go left and you're deciding to go right, that at the point the decision is made,

I will work my darndest to see that my leader's decision goes right. I'm not going to sabotage. I'm not going to huff and puff that you didn't follow my advice. And if it goes sideways, I'm not going to say, see, I told you, I'm going to work tirelessly to help fix whatever went wrong. And the ability to put one's ego and one's advice aside to be a good follower, going to say, see, I told you, I'm going to work tirelessly to help fix whatever went wrong. And the ability to put one's ego and one's advice aside to be a good follower, even if you disagree with the decision your leader made, once the decision is made, we're all going to work together

as a team to see that decision succeed. Yes. I think we need more of that, whether it's an internal team or an external funder. If you're going to make a decision, even if they disagree with it, they will now work tirelessly to see you succeed in whatever decision you made. But I don't know how we get that to happen. It's all fine and good for me to speak idealistically on a podcast. But at the end of the day, how do we create a culture where that's actually going to happen? Where are those people coming from? How do we instill those values? Full disclosure, I'm not somebody who actively raises money. And I think that's what makes me different as an entrepreneur. I haven't raised money since 2017. And when I did,

it was a very small amount. So I do still control the company and own the company. With investors, I mean, honestly, I think it does come down to making sure that the outcomes are aligned. And oftentimes my ideal outcome of keeping the company private and continuing to invest in the future innovation and the philanthropy, they wouldn't align with most investors, which is why I've always been so focused on profitability. And because that does give me the freedom to continue to run the business that way. I do think though, that that question applies with when you're talking about followership and leadership with team members. And when I think about colleagues that I have and that I really work well with, there's a chemistry element to it. It doesn't

mean that just because somebody doesn't operate well in your company that they're a bad person or that they lack talent. And I really have to actively work to not personalize it because half the time when you hire somebody, it's not going to be the right fit. And I think that that's something that I had to really remind myself of. But the leadership and followership is a two-way street. And there have been times where we've had people on the team that are just unwilling to go there. I love disagreeing with people. I love debating with people. And so I have to surround myself with people who also crave that and who are not afraid to do that. And so I've had to pivot the way that I ask questions or the way that I interview people because everybody's on their best behavior when they're interviewing.

And so I've tried all different kinds of ways to get that out of people before making the decision to work together. Did I share with you my favorite interview question? Ooh, tell me. So whenever I'm interviewing somebody for a position, I have one question that's my go-to and it's always at the end of the interview. I will say, I hate surprises, which is true. I hate surprises. I hate surprises, which is true. I hate surprises.

I hate surprises. Can you tell me something that might go wrong now so that I'm not surprised when it happens? Interesting. It's a better way of asking, tell me what your weaknesses are, right? Because if you say, what's your biggest weakness? Oh, I'm a perfectionist. Yeah. I work too hard.

And I'm not making it about them. I'm making it about me. I'm asking them to help me. And that's really important. People sometimes screw the question up and they say, you know, tell me something that might surprise me. No, no, no, no. I hate surprises. I want to know something that might happen. Tell me now so that I'm not surprised by it. And the answers I get are absolutely incredible. So for example, one person told me, I'm really sensitive. And sometimes if you give me feedback, I sometimes personalize it and take it the wrong way and get really emotional. Great thing to know. Now, it doesn't exclude them from getting the job, but it's certainly something that really helps me. Absolutely.

I get hired, A, so I can give feedback differently. Yes. I know that up front, but I know that going in now, no surprise. My absolute favorite question to ask an interview and it's unbelievable the answers I get. That's a fantastic question. I'm going to borrow that. Yeah. And again, it doesn't exclude them from employment. It's never a make or break answer ever, but it's so helpful for me to understand where their strengths and weaknesses are, which is under these conditions, this person's going to thrive. And under these conditions, this person is going to struggle. I can work with that. Absolutely. And one of the things that I love are these, these tools like DISC, where we can understand people's communication style and languages of

appreciation, which is the workplace love languages. Because if I, I have given people public praise and then I've like literally watched them shrivel in front of me. And I've made people so uncomfortable before because I'm somebody who loves to galvanize and I love to cheerlead and I love to celebrate people. And there are some people that that actually completely turns them off from wanting to continue to do the action that got them that praise because they're uncomfortable with that. One size does not fit all. Yes. And I think what I'm learning more and more on my journey, which is part of being a good leader is learning to adjust your style for somebody else.

Yes. So for example, I like, I think you and I are similar in this way, which is I like blunt feedback. Yes. Just tell me. Just, I don't care how harsh it sounds. It's just like people like, oh, just, I'm just, I'm fine with it. Just tell me.

Give it to me straight. Yeah. I just want to know. I'm fine with it. Right. Because I'm comfortable with it. I often give feedback that way. I'm just, I'm fine with it. Just tell me. Give it to me straight, yeah. I just want to know. I'm fine with it, right? Because I'm comfortable with it. I often give feedback that way. I'm just sort of, here it is.

Yes. And it doesn't land well all the time. No. And then I find now I'm fixing a situation. Yes. And so one of the things that I've really worked hard at learning is how do the people around me want to be given feedback? Yes. And there's a really easy

way to find out. Ask them. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm reacting this way because literally I've been asking everybody that I support from a leadership perspective, how do you like to receive feedback? Yeah. How do you like to receive criticism or negative feedback? You know, if there's something that went wrong or I have a point of view, like for example, one person told me, I'm fine with blunt feedback. I just need to be prepared. So don't spring, you can't spring it on me. So now I say, I have some difficult feedback for you. Can we do it now? That would cause me so much anxiety. I'd be like, just tell me, give it to me straight. So they want to sort of be able to go, okay, I'm ready now. And that's been hugely helpful because in the past, they would just give it.

Absolutely. And it would never go well. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I love about the evolution of business and being a leader is that it's not a one size fits all. Similar to how medicine is evolving. There's customization that's happening in medicine constantly. And I think that if we understand that each human is so unique that we can get to know them better and ultimately meet them where

they're at. This is really an interesting conversation because the idea of giving a team accountability is well talked about. Leadership has a particular challenge. They don't know what to do. And the traditional way of doing it is you get all the leaders in the room, you have an offsite, you have a meeting, you have a phone call, whatever it is, and they all battle it out and they come to some sort of conclusion and make a decision and let everybody on the team know this is what we're going to do. Yeah. Okay. Or invite somebody who's on the front line to be in that meeting,

or go to the front line and saying, here's the challenge we have, give us options. Yes. Or take different teams on the front line and tell them all, this is our challenge. We want to hear competitive options. There's no right or wrong. We're looking for different points of view. And let the team solve their own problems.

And the reason I bring that up is that it's actually an interesting philosophy for leadership as well, which is asking people how they want to be led. How do you like to be given compliments? Like what makes you feel good? What context? Do you want to do it publicly? Do you want to do it privately? Like, what do you like? When there's criticism or opportunity for improvement, how do you want to be told about that? How do you respond to goals? What works for you? What inspires you? Because I was never motivated by grades, for example. Getting an A or getting it meant absolutely nothing to me, right? Because I was satisfied with doing no, for example. Getting an A or getting it meant absolutely nothing to me.

Yeah. Right? Because I was satisfied with doing no work and getting Bs. Yeah. And that was fine. Yes. It seemed like a perfectly- Cs get degrees.

It seems like a perfectly legitimate strategy. Ds don't though. Do no work and get a B versus work really hard just to get an A. There's only one grade difference. Yes. That was always my attitude. You're a better student than me, Simon. I mean, it's an average.

When I was a freshman in high school, I heard a stat that the average CEO has like a 3.0 or something like that. And then it was over for me. What was your graduating GPA from college? I don't even know. I don't know. And I don't care. It doesn't matter. I only know because what was yours? 2.97 oh okay I was probably in that range but it's not

but it would have been higher in my defense I got two D's in college one of them I deserved and one of them I didn't one of them was a class I took

like science for trees just to like get environmental science like to get rid of my it wasn't about trees it was for trees oh it was literally just to get rid of a requirement and the syllabus was very clear that the midterm there's only a midterm and a final that's all there was and that they would be averaged and that would be your grade the midterm I think I got an

a or b and the final I think I got a d the average would be a C or at least a C plus and maybe even a B minus. Right? I think it was a B minus. And the professor gave me a D because that was my final grade and he excluded my midterm. So he violated his own syllabus. And it still haunts you. I wouldn't say haunt, but it does annoy me. I'm just teasing you. Can I tell you about my Ds? Yeah. So I did not know, and I'm curious, did your Ds ultimately count as credits or did it get wiped out?

No, they didn't. Oh, okay. It was a pass. And I'll tell you the story of the other D. That's much more positive. Okay. Tell me. Well, go ahead. We'll trade D stories. I got a D in nutrition. Wait a minute.

And I love nutrition. I was going to say that. This is like your thing. So I got a D in nutrition because I had this amazing internship at Nordstrom. And so I just didn't go to class. Oh, you slacker. I literally just didn't go to class, but this, this class was at community college, Bellevue community college. And I, I did deserve the D because it was literally all I had to do was show up and crush potato chips, the low fat versus the normal fat versus whatever, low sodium and see which one had

produced the most oil. And I couldn't do that because I was so excited about my internship at Nordstrom. And so I just was like, straight up didn't go. I absolutely, I deserved every D I ever got. Yeah, you definitely deserve that D. I mean, look, I'm not going to lie. I definitely slacked off the class that I got the D on the final, but I did get a decent grade on the midterm. Okay. So the second time I got a D, it was an intro to ethnography. And one thing that people who know me know this, I hate being told what to do.

Like I'm super independent. And if I choose to do something, I'll do it. But if somebody tells me I have to do something, I'm not as motivated. So like all my course requirements at college were the ones I put the least effort in. Even if I had chosen that class, I would have loved it. But the fact that I didn't get to choose it. So intro to anthropology was a course requirement to be in an anthropology major, which is what I was. And it was a small class and I wasn't very good at reading and I didn't do the reading very often. And I had a teacher who was known to be very hard. And he'd ask me a question about the reading.

I'd fumble an answer. He'd look at me in class and goes, did you do the reading? And basically forced me to say in front of everybody, no. And then he'd say, well, then I appreciate you don't answer the question. He was a hard man. Ultimately, we had a final exam and I didn't do it. I just didn't hand it in. It was a paper. I just didn't hand in my final, but he agreed to give me an extension. I still didn't do the paper. I know. And he gave me a D. He didn't fail me, even though I didn't even hand in the final paper.

He gave me a D. And I went to see him after grades came out. And I went to his office and I said, I know you think I'm an idiot. He goes, I don't think you're an idiot. He goes, I said, look, I got a D in your class. I know you think I'm an idiot. He goes, I don't think you're an idiot, he said. I said, but I'm going to prove to you that I'm not an idiot. So I've signed up for another one of your classes.

And I got an A and he ended up becoming my advisor. Wow. The moral of the story is, I'm an idiot. That's moral one. But moral two was there's something incredibly powerful about when someone sees something in you or that you are driven to make someone proud rather than do it for yourself or for the grade, but for someone. Yes. rather than do it for yourself or for the grade, but for someone. Yes.

It's not just the ability to accomplish, but it's the motivation and the pride and the relationship that is built. He was a fantastic mentor to me all through college. And like I said, became my advisor. I've had it happen. You've had it happen. A lot of people have had it happen where we're kind of responsible for our own poor performance, but we don't really want to take performance.

We blame the teacher. We blame the boss. we blame the conditions, we blame the business. And simply just to own it and then do it again to prove to everybody that you can, I think is an incredibly powerful motivation. But first you have to own your own stupidity. Yes. Yes. Which is so key. And I think in leadership too, owning our mistakes, which I can always do more of, but really owning it when we mess up. It's easier said than done. But when we do that as leaders, it gives others permission. Because I think this idea that we're all walking around perfect is completely a misnomer. But there's so much in society, whether it's social media or what people are seeing on TV, where there's this perfectionism.

And so people put on this invisible armor every day. Well, I know where it comes from for a lot of leaders. There's the false belief that my qualification to be in a leadership position is directly tied to my intelligence, my performance, my ability to make right decisions, my ability to project confidence, whatever one of those or some combination of those. And so we pretend that we have all the answers. We pretend that we're the smartest person in the room. We pretend that we know everything. We pretend that we have unlimited amounts of confidence and energy because we want to validate or prove that we are worthy of the title or responsibility we've been given. But that's not your job. No. Your job is to lead other people who are smarter, more talented,

more aware, have different points of view. And ultimately, the only thing you're going to have to do is make a decision. Like we give you a position of authority because you're accountable for the team, but you will have to make decisions. And when things go right, you're going to have to give away the credit. And when things go wrong, you're going to have to take the responsibility. That's why we give you more money. That's why we give you more perks because you're ultimately accountable. And so all you have to do is accept accountability and be willing to make decisions and difficult decisions. And so all you have to do is accept accountability and be willing to make decisions and difficult decisions. And that's what qualifies you. And that you're singularly devoted to seeing those on your team rise and work to their natural best. That's your job.

Yeah. And it's actually so much more inspiring when you lead that way because you're able to learn. I always want to, and I don't necessarily love the idea of saying, oh, I want to be the dumbest person in the room. But from a leadership perspective, I constantly want to be, and I don't necessarily love the idea of saying, oh, I want to be the dumbest person in the room. But from a leadership perspective, I constantly want to be surrounding myself with people of all levels who are teaching me in the business. And so I don't think that title has anything to do with someone's intelligence and what they're going to contribute to the business. And if you approach it from that perspective, you can learn so much from everybody in your business. it from that perspective, you can learn so much from everybody in your business. Can you tell me something that you've done in your career that when you look back, something specific that you're just sort of super proud of that it makes you smile every time you think about it?

I am so proud of the people who have grown within our company. Specific, specific. Oh, I think of Maria immediately. So Maria was one of our first employees when we first opened our innovation center in Los Angeles. It was about six years ago. And she walked in and she had so much fire in her and just this drive where she was applying for a social media coordinator position. is she's now had five different roles within the company. She is leading teams, and she actually is leading our philanthropy department now. So to go from social media and applying for a social media coordinator position, which was quite narrow,

but to bring all of her unique skills and to be able to unlock those within our company is something that I'm really proud of, and I can take no credit for it. It's, I mean, maybe 5% of it, but it's seeing that magic in somebody and then allowing them to bring those unique talents to the company at all different stages. And then also having phenomenal leaders who can help guide and shape her. And then of

course her own drive and passion to get there. So. And tell me a challenge you had as a child, like an early, just one, like tell me something as a had as a child, like an early... So many. I just want one. Like tell me something as a young person, something specific that we can relive with you. Just something you overcame, like a challenge that when you look back and you'd be like, wow, I did that. I would say when I was in high school, I really lacked direction. I do believe that I was situationally depressed in that time. And so I lacked direction.

I lacked community because I had moved far away from where I grew up and I didn't have that sense of community. And when I, I was in a really dark place, really, really dark place. And what helped me get through that was taking action and getting actually into the business world at a very young age, when I was 16 years old, I was able to cultivate community through a program called Future Business Leaders of America. And going from not having any friends and not having community in this new place that I had moved to, to then being able to cultivate that through work was something that I learned and that I have to also pay attention to as an adult because I am a 24-7 entrepreneur. But that sense of purpose that I got from Future Business Leaders of America, it really brought me out of that. Was there someone specific at the Future Business Leaders of America that sort of took you under their wing? Or was it the group of friends? Or like, where did that confidence

come from? You know, you said built community, which I appreciate. Yeah. But were there specific people? I remember being at a local conference. There was a woman, she was an executive at Zappos, I believe. I remember writing it down because she said, why not you? And now that's you so much. But she just said, why not you?

And it just was this switch in my mind, like, why can't I be happy? Why can't I have purpose? And so approaching the world from that, well, yeah, why can't I do that? And that really inspired me. And it was such a great mindset shift for me because I was very much like, why me? Why me? Why me? And then it became, why not me? I so appreciate that because the way you talk about what this woman did for you, which is making you feel seen, giving you a sense of purpose is the same thing that you gave Maria, she joined and you know

all these opportunities that may have shown up that she may have doubted herself and the answer was why not you and you gave her a sense of purpose and she grew and I hear about when you name your products after your customers you know these people who are doing things and why not them yeah you know and all all of these examples are somebody made you feel seen and asked you the question, why not you? And it gave you a sense of purpose and drive. And what you've used your company for and the way you lead is to do the same thing, which is to make people feel seen and ask the question, why not you? Why shouldn't you be beautiful? Why shouldn't you feel beautiful? Why shouldn't you feel confidence? Why not you? I find that absolutely magical. Anyone who gets to know you, anyone who gets to call you, is lucky enough to call you friend or colleague, is very lucky because they will feel seen and they will find a confidence that they may not have had if you weren't in their lives. And I love that you have built that element of your personality directly into your business. That's what Thrive does. I mean, it's called Thrive, for heaven's sakes. I mean, I really have so much gratitude for the people that I get to work with

every day and see it as a privilege because I am learning so much. And I kind of love that I'm never good enough at my job. I've never, I'm never finished in my job because as the company changes and evolves, I have to change. And there are periods of time where I don't love my job, but I have enough data points and enough experience now that I'm like, okay, I don't love it now. What don't I love about it? How can I get help? How can I ask questions? And so many of those answers come from our amazing employees. And this is why you're one of my favorite entrepreneurs. Thank you. Carissa, thanks so much for joining me. I always learn something whenever I talk to you and I'm just so grateful you're out there doing your thing.

The world is a better place with you and your company in it. Thank you, Simon. Right back at you. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenic.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.