A Bit of Optimism - Revisited: The Power of Saying "Screw It" with Rob Lowe

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Hello from Team Simon! We're taking a few weeks off and will be back with brand-new episodes of A Bit of Optimism on Tuesday, October 27. Until then, we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations, starting with one of the most fun we've ever had: Rob Lowe. Maybe you know the feeling: you've got an idea, a joke, a risk you want to take… and you talk yourself out of it before anyone else gets the chance. Rob Lowe has spent four decades doing the opposite. He calls it a healthy case of the "screw-its." It's how he survived an industry famous for chewing people up. He went from movies to The West Wing when movie stars didn't do TV, and from TV to hosting a game show when that was supposed to be career death. His secret isn't avoiding failure. It's never letting failure decide what he tries next. Rob is an actor, producer, and bestselling author whose career runs from The Outsiders and St. Elmo's Fire to The West Wing and Parks and Recreation. He hosts FOX's The Floor and the podcast Literally! with Rob Lowe, and stars alongside his son John Owen Lowe in Netflix's Unstable. In this conversation, Rob tells the story of his infamous Oscars song-and-dance number (and the open letter from Hollywood legends that followed it). He also shares the Letterman appearance that taught him to trust his instincts for good, and explains why authenticity has become the only currency that matters. And I push him on the question under all of it: can the rest of us learn to take a punch the way he does? In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why a healthy case of the "screw-its" is a career strategy, not a character flaw ➡️ What the world's top tennis players can teach us about bouncing back ➡️ The one practical rule for being more authentic: stop self-editing ➡️ Why the thing you least want to talk about is the thing that makes you relatable ➡️ Why "availability" might be a better word than "vulnerability" ➡️ How to spot performative authenticity (+ Rob's three red-carpet poses) ➡️ Why you can meet your heroes, but shouldn't get to know them ➡️ How humor makes even the hardest subjects easier to talk about Rob's lesson is a freeing one: take the work seriously, laugh at the absurd parts, and trust your gut on the next big swing. Worst case, you get a great story. This… is A Bit of Optimism.   + + +   If you want to listen to Rob’s podcast, Literally! with Rob Lowe, head to: https://teamcoco.com/podcasts/literally-with-rob-lowe  Find out where you can watch Rob as host of GSN’s The Floor, weekends at 8pm ET: https://www.gameshownetwork.com/the-floor    + + +   Chapters Chapters 00:00:00 The Oscars Disaster: When Rob Lowe Bombed on Stage 00:01:59 From Teen Beat Cover Boy to Career Crisis at 17 00:03:33 The Fame Freeze: Why Celebrities Stop Growing 00:05:29 The Secret to Staying Relevant for Decades 00:06:55 Breaking the Rules: From Movies to TV When No One Did 00:12:45 The Comedy Central Roast and the Price of Humiliation 00:14:39 Learning to Trust Your Instincts After Letterman 00:21:05 What Authenticity Actually Means in Hollywood 00:31:30 The Art of Self-Deprecation Without Losing Respect 00:38:00 Red Carpet Secrets: Man of the People, Blue Steel, and Iconic 00:51:29 Don't Meet Your Heroes - Or At Least Don't Get to Know Them 00:53:26 Finding Humor in the Darkest Moments 00:57:01 Why Game Shows Are Actually the Hardest Thing He's Done 01:01:18 Live in Gratitude and Manage Your Expectations   + + +   Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together.   Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.   Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game.   + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

So you decide to do a sock and dance for the opening of the Oscars. Can't dance, really. Okay, okay. I mean, I didn't get footloose for a reason. For a reason, right. And it doesn't go well, is what you're saying? It doesn't go well. It doesn't go well.

There was an open letter to the academy the next day, signed by like Paul Newman and Gregory Peck. And like, this was an affront to our sensibility. how damn I mean I looked out in the audience and I saw it was the night

Barry Levinson won 10 Academy Awards for Rain Man and I literally saw him mouth what the fuck didn't go well

to borrow a line from Heidi Klum in Hollywood one day you're in and the next you're out but not for Rob Lowe

he has been a fixture since the 1980 and has had decades worth of iconic roles, from St. Elmo's Fire to the Outsiders, to the West Wing to Parks and Rec. In an industry that chews him up and spits him out, how has Rob Lowe stayed relevant for so long? It's not just his good looks,

and yes, he is very good-looking. It's something else. The real secret to Rob's longevity is something more powerful. As he puts it, he's got a serious case of the fuck-its. He likes taking real, taking risks, knowing full well that they don't always work out. But the thrill of doing something new is exactly the thing that has helped him find opportunities

where others don't. In addition to the movies and TV shows, he's also the host of the podcast literally with Rob Lowe and is host of The Floor, which airs its fourth season on September 24th on Fox. This is a bit of optimism. How old were you when you got famous? young, very young. The first time, because then it came and then went. Oh, really?

Yeah, because I got famous as a teen idol. Right. And then it didn't work. And what was the thing that put you on the map? It was a sitcom called A New Kind of Family, and I was 15. And so, you know, you're like the... You were on the cover of Teen Beat? Yeah, all that stuff.

Bop. Teen? beat. Is this something about like maybe just because I'm just a fucking old pervert. There's something about. Oh, wait. I just put it together. And Bob.

Wait, I just put that together in this moment. The minute you said pervert, immediately I understood. Teen beat. I had never made that association. Teen beat? You've just.

Are they kidding with that? Bob. But you were on the cover. That's worse. She bop. No, no. I get it. But you were on the cover.

That's the worst part. Oh, yeah. You were the team. I was a cover boy at 15. Yeah. And then had a early midlife crisis at 17, 16 and 17

didn't work because they hired only 18 year olds to play younger because of child labor loss and how long you'd work on a set. And I just didn't work for two and a half years and I thought my career was over. And then I got the outsiders and that was a whole other level of fame. That's movie.

That's movie. And that started it. Yeah. Yeah. because you I have a friend you're pretty you're relatively grounded

I mean I'll go with relatively it's relatively relatively because I have a friend who has a theory that when people achieve fame

any kind of growth that they have ceases oh I have that theory it's true yeah and so like child actors are screwed because they stop growing and they think they think

everybody says yes to you is normal. Yes, whenever I, that's 100% true. Unless you do a ton of work on yourself, you're frozen in amber. Right. The minute you get famous. Yes, that's true. It's absolutely true. So when people achieve adult fame, they're a little more grounded because they know where they came from, hopefully. And they, they, they, they, they also have experienced just by virtue of the, of, of time, they've experienced more life. But your career is kind of amazing, because You have, and this is a credit to you, you have been able to remain relevant for forever. I mean, you were part of the Brat Pack back in the day.

Yep. Mid-80s. Mid-80s. You know, John Hughes and that crew. Yep. I mean, that's my childhood. I grew up watching all of your movies. And I think I watched the documentary.

I watched... Rat Pack Talk, that Andrew McCarthy did. With Andrew McCarthy. And to your credit and Demi's credit, like you guys didn't get sucked into it. And it wasn't, you've maintained careers and relevance up until now. He didn't let that define us in a way. What, like, was there a strategy to remain current? Like, what is it that makes one actor be able to survive for decades and another actor be a blip in time?

No fault of their own. Just like they're super hot for a while. And then they're just not. Sure. It's not that they're not talented. It's not that they're not good. It's not that they're bad people. It's not that they're hard to work with. It's just that they have their moment and then they don't. Yeah. It's they're, I mean, actors are products, you know, to some degree. Same with singers. Yeah. So what is it, was it, was it luck? Was it something you did differently than other actors that helped you, that you're still working and people still love you and stop you on the streets and all the rest of it? I mean, not nostalgically. No, not nostalgic. In fact, the thing that I love the most is when like a group of 14 year olds come up. Yeah. Because they've seen the outsiders and like, or they've watched Parks and Rec. Yeah.

Or, you know, whatever. Being relevant is. So was it, was it something you did or was it, are you just like thanking your lucky stars every day that it kind of worked out? It's like anything else. You put yourself in a position to get lucky, right? So one of the things is that I've, I've always been a risk taker. and so if something's interesting to me, I'll do it. And so, for example, when I did the West Wing,

that was at a time when if you had come from movies, and God forbid you'd been in movies, but maybe you were in a sort of mini downturn, which I was, you definitely, if you did a TV series, you were admitting defeat. Right. And there were, I mean, I've talked to people. You could go from TV to movies, but you would never go to movies to TV.

Never. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and I remember, you know, when, after I did it, guys like William Peterson, big movie crew to live and die in L.A., he did CSI and Kiefer. He said, I saw you on West Wing and was like, okay, maybe I'll do television. He did 24. So I'm not saying I blazed any trail, but when people see somebody do it, all of a sudden, the stigma comes off of it.

But I was able to do it because I just didn't care. And I was like, I, I've always had a healthy case of the fuckets. Yeah. And that really helps. And then the other thing is I'm naturally curious. Mm-hmm. So. You want to do different things.

I want to do different things. Like, I've never done TV kind of thing. Never done a podcast. Right. You know? Right. Right. Right.

Right. But, you know, like, when I wrote my first book, people were like, well, you can't write a memoir because that's another thing people do when it's over right or when they need money right and i was like well it's neither for me yeah and i don't care what people think because i think i have something to say and i'm on my third book when where how did you develop the case of the fuckets like where did it come from like was it instilled in you and your parents or did you like did you survive the the career near death experience and realize you survive so you'll be okay kind of thing If you talk to my family, particularly my brothers, they say, they'll tell you I always had it.

And I think, where are you in the pecking order? I'm the oldest. Okay. I mean, I think I've always had a lack of fear around like sort of ambition, audaciousness, lack of fear, whatever flavor you want to describe. It's that same ingredient I think I've, I kind of was born with. So what, so give me an example of something. at a risk you took and it didn't work out. And it was like, oh, well, give me one.

Just give me one. I got a bad one. Agreeing to do a song and dance number to open the Academy Awards. Disaster. I wish you had talked to me before that. I could have advised you against that. What would you have said? Other than it's a horrible idea.

It's a horrible idea. Okay, so can you sing and dance? Let's start there. I'm an actor who sings. Okay. So you're a double threat. I can sing as well as Russell Crow. Let's put it that way.

No disrespect to Russell Crow at all. But not. I mean, I think I, I mean, Kiefer Sutherland tour is a band. I think I could go up and do a duet with him. Okay. So you decide. I'm no Bacon Brothers. So you decide to do a sock and dance for the opening of the Oscars.

Can't dance, really. Okay. Okay. I mean, I didn't get footloose for a reason. For a reason, right. And it doesn't go well, is what you're saying? it doesn't go well it doesn't go well

there was an open letter to the academy the next day signed by like Paul Newman and Gregory Peck and like this was an affront to our sensibility how damn I mean I looked

out in the audience and I saw it was the night Barry Levinson won 10 Academy Awards for Rain Man and I literally saw him mouth what the fuck. Didn't go well. Okay.

So you come upstage, you're fully aware of what happened. Here's the other part. You've got to have, there's a reason why a lot of actors are egomaniacs and self-centered narcissists, because you have to have a little bit of that to inoculate yourself to the indignities that happen daily

in a career where you're marked to mark. every single day. Right. So that part of me was like, fuck Barry Levinson. What does he know? Do you know what I mean? And then see you go,

you go backstage and then you sit there and you're in the green room and there's Lucille Ball telling you that you're a wonderful dancer and singer. She's making fun of you. No, she loved it. Oh, really? No, she legitimately.

But she's also a comedy genius. God damn it. I always thought she liked it. Fuck. you've totally rewritten my own history, Simon. The history I tell myself is that... Lucille Ball loved me. Everybody hated it except Lucille Ball.

Now, it's just everybody hated it, including Lucille Ball. No, she loved it. Because she's a comedy genius. God damn it. She legitimately loved it. Young man. So Lucille Ball loved it. And then you read the open letter

that's an affront to the Academy and all our sensibilities. So is that a hundred? humbling or do you have a sense of humor about it? Like, this is what I want to understand, which is I want to understand like if there are these peaks and valleys and, you know, you have a healthy narcissism or unhealthy that... I've been diagnosed as a benevolent narcissist. Is that a diagnosis? Well, that's what Rashida Jones says.

And I think she's actually a learned woman. Okay, so you're benevolent narcissist, which means that you can take these situations and do you, do you actually, does it hurt or is it funny? both simultaneously yes so is that the reason that you've been able to maintain a career for so long is because you have a as as as as as as as as as as as healthy as your ego is you also get that it's a it's a it's a joke it's a game 100% like you're a caricature of yourself at times what that's why when um like one of my favorite things that i've ever done was the comedy

central roast of myself right it's brutal why do people people agree to that well see that's just the thing is like like why would so I told Cheryl I said they've come to me your wife Cheryl yeah my wife Cheryl they've cut they came to me like four years in a row and I was like I'm not doing that and then I remember Justin Bieber did it and he is a huge star I was like you know what if Justin Bieber can do it I can do it and competition right and right it's everything you you right you've said about me and And Cheryl goes, you can't, I won't let you do it. You're going to, you're going to be humiliated, nationalized.

That ship has sailed. That's what I said. I remember I said to her. And she goes, well, are they at least going to pay you? I go, yeah, they're going to pay me over a million dollars. She goes, oh, you're doing it. Everybody's got a price. Everyone has a price.

What's the price of humiliation? Turns out it's about a million dollars. It's about a million dollars for about five hours work. Yeah. I would put up with a lot for that. I mean, who among us? So, but that said, I've never had more fun. Never.

Never. It was so fun. And they eviscerated. Our good friend Maria Shriver, I invited. And she sat there and there's a look. You can watch it on Netflix to this day or wherever the hell it is. The look of horror on Maria Shriver's face as I'm getting. I'm so going to

dissected. I wish I'd watch this as prep. It's so brutal. But it's... So where did you learn that? Did that come from being punched in the face a few times and learning? Like, was that natural or did you... What I'm getting at... I'll tell you what is... What I'm getting it is, can the rest of us

learn? You are you are black belt, jujitsu, you know, your ability to weather the punches. And the question I'm asking, the reason I'm going down this path is, can the rest of us learn to withstand humiliation and I don't want to say you know failures but sort of like failures failures they wrote an open letter Simon Paul Newman wrote an open letter okay so

how did the rest of us learn to build a muscle bad of humiliation to withstand humiliation of failure because ultimately it's good for growth growth mental health and and and career longevity so I want to know where it came from. I mean, I think it's competitiveness. Like, I'm down, but I'm not out. Right? You see it with athletes all the time. Literally, they're down by X amount of points or...

But what's going through your head when you're down? Because the difference between a great athlete and just a very talented athlete is the mental game, not the physical game. Well, it's like somebody in shoot, they say what makes great shooters is they forget the last bad shot. Yeah. So, I mean, they literally are impervious to the fact that they've gone over 18. Yeah.

They get the ball. They're not going, oh, what if I go over for 19? They're not. I mean, that's a real thing. I've been talking about this thing recently. I heard this guy talking about, he wanted to understand what makes the best tennis players, the best tennis players. And what he discovered is the top five, or always in the top five. And like the next 20, 25 are like circulating in the 2035.

So what he's asking is like, what distinguishes the top five from everybody else? It's not diet. It's not discipline. It's not training. All those things are equals. what he discovered was the top five tennis players love the game. They love the game.

So when they have a great shot, they'll win the point, and they'll say to themselves, oh, I love this game. And if they miss the point, they go, missed it this time, but just you wait. And what that does is it reduces stress

and saves energy. And so individually, it doesn't do very much, but over the course of an entire game, what it does by the end, they have more energy and they have lower stress, and so they can win at the end because they're just so much more relaxed

and have much more physical energy than their opponent who's stressed out and tense and all the rest of it and tight and so I'm wondering if it's something similar to that which is when you get when you get on your heels when you win you're like I freaking love my life I love my career I love this crazy business and when you get hit on your heels you go like oh that's suck but I'm coming like is it the same do you have the same joy that's what it feels like that's exactly what it feels like that's what goes through my mind

what you just described. So that to me is learnable, but that to me is also to see it done in a career that's not athletics. Because athletics, it's immediate. Point, point, point, point, point,

game done. Right? I find it more interesting in what you're doing because it's less immediate. And you have to actually, because those down periods can last weeks, months.

Years. Years. And to be able to maintain that attitude of, I'm coming back and be able to look past the fact that it's been a year and you've been out of work. There was a time in my career where I hadn't been...

Do you remember these things called magazines? Do you remember those when those were out? Yeah. So there was a time when I hadn't been on the cover of a magazine, which is, you know, as silly as it sounds, a great barometer of your cachet and your industry. Popularity. Yeah.

And I hadn't been on a magazine cover in 10 years. Maybe. And I was like, I'm back. I'll be back. And then it was. And then there was another five or six year period, not, and then back again. And I always wanted to be on the cover of Vanity Fair because that really meant something. That was when I came up, like that was only the biggest stars.

Right. Got on the cover of Vanity Fair. And I never got it. Never, never, never, never, never got it. And not only did I not get that, I didn't get very many at all. And then I ended up getting the cover of Vanity Fair. And it wasn't for acting. It was for my writing.

it was that they excerpted my first book. And that, which I always took kind of, talk about you can have all your plans, but the universe has something else. Like, if you'd have told me, you're never going to get the cover of Vanity Fair as an actor, but you're going to get it as an author. I'd have been like, what? Yeah. But that's what happened. So, but it was still the attitude of I'll be back. I'll be back, as Arnold would say.

But I am fascinated by this, this, because you come from an industry where the egos are fascinating. fascinating fascinating my point is is you have you you could make a study you're you're one of the very few actors who's had a career across so many so many decades that you i'm very curious how the industry has changed oh my god when you were an a lister with all the magazines and paparazzi following you around then versus now like what has changed of the personalities what does it take to stay in this business what does it take to get into this business has anything changed the people who made it then could they make it now the people who made it now could they have made it now could they have it then. This is a five-hour podcast question, and I'm happy to go into it because

I'm fascinated by it. Okay, well. For me, I'm a culture guy, and I'm so curious how the culture has changed of show business. So in no particular order, because I'm not sure of the things I'm going to talk about, which is more important. Yeah. So I'm just going to start talking. Go. Today, the audience is interested in you to the, you to the the extent that they like you and are invested in who you as a person. Behind offscreen. As a person as a brand is your thing. So compare that to when people loved Paul Newman or Marlon Brando or Lillian Gish.

They didn't know fuck all about any of those. No parasycial relationships. Nothing. By the way, if you wanted to see them outside of what you paid in a movie or a TV show, maybe, maybe you saw them at the Oscars or the Emmys. Today, they, if you're not, and really what it is is, it's, audiences need, audiences need authenticity today. They value authenticity above all else.

All else. So before they were, they were, they were. actors, they had a job. Now you have a brand you're managing. And that makes that makes it sound, is that right? Yeah, but it makes, yes, but that phraseology through no fault of your own makes it sound more icky than it is. Because when you, when you realize what is it, what's underneath it is people in a world where literally you don't even know what the truth is anymore, if you get a whiff of authenticity, that is huge to people. Because you're the same, on camera than you are of camera.

I mean, just talking to you now, like you and I should have shooting the shit before we turn the camera. It's the same, it's the same cadence. It's the same personality. You don't turn it on for the cameras. I mean, this is what you see is what you get. Is that what you mean? 100%. And that has always been my, a little bit of my secret sauce.

It doesn't always work in my favor. I won't name names, but people can do the math. I came up with a bunch of guys all about the same time, same looks, same level of talent. And one became a gigantic, gigantic, gigantic, iconic movie star. But the way that that person did it is they were a different person in private than they were in public. And I've just... Which works for a while. Which I just can't...

First of all, I don't want to live like that. Yeah, yeah. But, but like, I just couldn't, I just couldn't do it. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? The reason I keep scraping this, why I'm fascinated by this, is less about Hollywood, but more that I see that Hollywood and sort of show business is an exaggeration for real life. Yes. Everything's exaggerated.

Yes. And I think lots of people live lives where who they are publicly and who they are privately and who they are at work and who they are at home are. We're all slightly different, of course. Yes. You have to be. But there are some who are very different. And I think the concept of authenticity is something that we want at work. we want from our friends, we want from our companies,

and we're pushing it. And so I like looking at Hollywood for the lessons because everything is so exaggerated, it makes the lessons easier to see. So you see somebody who's so diametrically different publicly than they are privately, like what happens here and why does it crash? And what kind of skills does it take

to live an authentic life? And so is it just flexing the muscle of learning to withstand humiliation? Is it what we were saying before, which is love of life, joie de vivre, like, I love this and don't worry, I'll be back tomorrow.

Is it that kind of grit? Like, I'm trying to discern the lessons. It's all of that. And then the other part is owning your flaws and being aware of what your blind spots are and realizing that those can also be your superpowers. How do you define authenticity?

When you say that the audience these days, the people are looking for an authentic personality. What does that even mean? The term is so overused. You know what it is? It's like, what's the classic thing is, what is, what is, what is porn? How do you describe it? You know it when you see it?

That's not enough. Or like, what is modern art? You know it when you see. Yeah, but that's, that's, that's a, that, that is an answer people give because they are struggling to find the words to find it. If you can see something, you can define it. If we know what it is and we know what it isn't, then we, then we should be able to like, like, is the Sistine Chapel modern art?

Clearly not. But what if it's a feeling? Because it's a feel. It is a feel. It's a feel. Like when you're with somebody. How do you know a dog's a dog? You know it when you see it? No. It's, it's... But you're not getting a feeling off the dog. You're not getting a feeling off the dog. What we're talking about is a feel. Okay. So what's the feeling? Like I, I, I, how can we tell people be authentic if we can't tell them what to do? I can tell you, Zaghi, do not self-edit, which is practical shit that I have had to learn. So what does self-editing mean?

So if I have an, like in this conversation, if I have an instinct, something funny, I'm saying it, I'm thinking it and saying it before I've even registered that it's going to happen. As opposed to, I haven't even thought about it. It came from somewhere and I just blurted it out. I've lived parts of my life where in a talk show format, I wouldn't say anything until I had thought of it. How's that going to play? Is that on, is that off the topic we're on? Is it too mean? Is it make me like all of those things?

I don't have any of them anymore. When did that go away? When David Letterman fucked me. Yeah, when I did an appearance on David Letterman and he fucked me. There's a thing called a pre-interview, right? Do you know what a pre-interview is? Where are you, and I get it. I have it now being a podcast host.

I don't have this because I invite really good people. I don't have to, I don't have a machine where I have to, have fill time. But if you do, you're going to run up against people who have nothing to say. And so as a protection mechanism, these talk shows have a pre-interview process. You get some actors another ass from a hole in the ground. They've, you know, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. They've got to promote a movie. They're boring. They're funny if somebody writes for them. And now you've got to be out. So they have a pre-interview where you kind of agree on what the stories are going to be. And if they say this, you're going to say that. And they do all.

A little canned. Totally can't. Yeah, totally can. Yeah. And we can tell. 100%. Yeah, it's like comedians doing bits instead of answering questions. So I, and we did it. And Letterman's producer was like obsessed with a story that I told them that I knew was stupid. Yeah. But they were like, say that story. Make sure you tell that story.

Dave loves that story. I'm like, I mean, I'm thinking to myself, I'm having this instinct as a, this is not a good story. I don't even get it. The only reason I mentioned this story is, because they put me through a two and a half hour pre-interview for an interview that might be three minutes long. And by the way, the message of that is, you're boring. You have nothing to say.

Keep talking. Eventually, we're going to get to a story that's worthy of the great David Letterman. So I come out and they've got me, do you remember the Warner Brothers cartoons when like, Bugs Bunny would fuck Porky Pigs head up so much they'd pack different suitcases

on top of them and spin him around and then he'd walk right off of a out of a window of a hotel and fall to his death that was me

they're like here do this take that and remember this if Dave says this you say that and remember the one story about that

and then I'm out there I tell the story it's a long story and they're like really tell the story I tell the story and by the way the story was about

going camping with my dad and we had to fly on a plane and a bush plane and they let me fly it and I put us in a loop and that was it was it was no end there was nothing.

I finished the story to crickets, which I kind of knew we're coming. Dead long, dead air silence. And Letterman looks at me and goes, you know what, you seem like a good kid. After the show, you'll come up in my office and we're going to work on that story.

Fuck me. And so was it? What I learned from that is I'm going to trust my instincts. I'm going to say what I want when I want because it couldn't have gone worse checking the boxes.

Right. So even if you trust your own instincts and it fails, you're still at ground zero. And it turns out, guess what? I've got good instincts. Because guess what? You can't be a good actor without good instincts. Can't. Can't. Cann't. It's what we work with. So you learn from the humiliation to say, you know what, I'm going to trust my instinct and tell my own stories. That's right.

And so how do we teach someone to trust their gut without having to get to the point where they get? So have you been able to teach your kids? Have you been able to teach your friends how to develop this muscle other than, trust me, this is what happened to me. Don't make the same mistake. I mean, it's like, for example, if I were talking to a CEO of a company. Yeah. And it was about like, how can I be better talking at a retreat or how can I be better in interviews, right? Which I would say highlight your fears, your flaws, what you, like the very thing that you don't want to talk about is the very thing that you need to talk about.

that makes you interesting and makes you relatable. And, you know, I think that get off script, do something unexpected. Do something unexpected? By telling, first of all, it takes courage. A friend of mine, so the word vulnerability and being vulnerable is now overused to the point where I'm not even sure anybody knows what it means. and worse, to many people, the word vulnerable is equated with weakness.

That's right. My friend, I love this. She doesn't use the word vulnerable. For all the reasons, she hates the word. She uses the word available. Which I've really taken to, which is make yourself available. Right?

Like, make yourself available. Show people that you're available to talk about your mistakes. That you're available. emotionally, that you're available, you know, to show your humility. And the courage it takes to be available, to make yourself available, because to be unavailable is nothing but walls and smokescreens. Okay, so let's talk about something that's adjacent to that.

Like, people always say, the thing I like about Rob is he doesn't take himself seriously. I hate that as much as I hate the vulnerable thing. Because I do take myself. If I'm not going to take myself seriously, who the fuck is going to take? You're not a caricature. No, but you know what I mean? But they use it all the time, but what they're saying is,

I'm willing to discuss and not hide my flaws. Yeah. I hate the phrase, he doesn't take himself seriously. Yeah. To the contrary, bro. I take it was really, I mean, I've worked on myself. I'm not running nilly-willy around the fucking world,

but the notion of self-deprecating. Let's talk about. about that too because again if you watch all of my heroes would go and talk shows and be so funny about themselves Bert Reynolds fucking Kennedy's press

you ever see John Kennedy's press conferences oh they're amazing they're like one man shows he gets up there and he's making he's taking the pit like the English would say taking the piss out of himself that to me is so much more attractive than someone is trying to show you how cool they are

Yeah. All the time. Yeah. And I think it's relatable. I mean, because we're all bundles, it's much more relatable when people are self-deprecating or at least willing to point out their flaws because we're all bundles of insecurity. We're all imperfect. And when somebody presents themselves as perfect, it actually makes them very difficult to relate to. Yes. You know, where when somebody shows us, well, because we also know it's not true. Going back to, yeah, so you know it's not authentic. Yeah. You immediately know, well, they're not authentic. Okay. So going back to what it takes, to be authentic. So being authentic means willing to make yourself available, willing to show

who the real you is. And that means talking about mistakes, fears, anxieties. I mean, you, and I think having a healthy sense of humor about oneself is a sign of great self-confidence, not the opposite. Remember, we all went to school with the kid who could dish it out but couldn't take it.

Yes. And I have great respect for the kids who can dish it out and who can take it. Same. Right? And that's right. When you see I'm just thinking of like Peyton Manning. Yeah. Or you see these athletes, you see certain athletes who get into a broadcast booth and they're just kind of, because they're scared and they're trying to be perfect,

they have an image to maintain and whatever. And then you get a guy like Peyton Manning, you just like. Making fun of his forehead. Making fun of himself. And like, well, I wasn't exactly the most nimble guy in the pocket, but this guy over here, like, that's you, we love that. We love that kind of stuff. And I think that the great entertainers

and the great public figures always knew that. And my guess is that's something that everybody could learn from a little bit. Is there a line, though? Because we live in a world where authenticity, and now I'm putting it in their quotes, is performative. Right?

Where there's some social media influencer or just somebody on social media. Oh, yeah, the fake man of the people stuff. Not just fake man of the people, but like, but just the, just the like how many takes do I take talking about how I'm struggling with my dot dot dot dot you know

yep and it's like like where how the way if I were if I were running straight inauthentic man of the people game on you yeah which is the thing I would have showed up not only without the makeup and hair people but I would have showed up making sure

you are very well aware that I'm I'm such dude I'm just a regular guy man I'm a man I'm a man of people to it. I'm I'm not even sure I brush my teeth today. I could have run that one on you. Yeah. It's all, it's complete bullshit.

Yeah. It's just a different type of bullshit. Yeah. Has social media kind of lost the plot? Is it just become our new entertainment? Is it just the new theater where it started off as people telling their real stories. And now it's people telling the real stories ish, but it's scripted, it's lit, it's angled, it's, you know,

I know where to put the, is it like, everybody like everybody knows what their angles are everybody knows to lift the camera a little high everybody knows to put the light behind the photographer like everybody knows the basics some people know more than the basics my favorite is watching people pose for selfies on the street and like every single person now knows what only we used to know right you know like the the Olson twins when they you know

what they did famously they created the prune do you know what prune men don't have to do it but with gals if you get your picture taken people say say cheese I don't get that never meant but if you go prune you see prune

you get you get cheekbones you get trout pout and cheekbones see the fact that I know this and I'm willing to share it openly you're like the magician revealing the secrets well I have I have

I have I and you know this I've red carpet looks I've got man of the people I've got blue steel and I've got iconic you you have names for them Yeah. Can you? Right now? Yeah. Man of the People, please.

Man of the People is when you see like Tom Cruise at the rope line, at the line, like reaching out to sign thousands of autographs. He's doing Man of the People. Okay. And then and then blue steel is like is red carpet. You've got your angles. You're doing your angles. Step and repeat. Yeah, you've got Rob over here. Rob over here. It's that one. You want to show the watch that they've lent you. you. And you need to show that because otherwise you're not getting a watchline. So the question is, how do you get your hand up here? So it has to be you're caught mid-move like this. That's a good, that's, that's, that's iconic. Also looking up and off is always, the presidential photographs are always hopefully looking off to the horizon. But the horizon's not down here. Horizon's up there. So you're looking up to the horizon. And so yeah, those are the three. The best is I, I told Chris Pratt that with mutual friends of Pratt.

Early on when he was just becoming a movie star, he literally called me, he calls me a rollo. Rollo, I'm in the car. I'm on the way of the car. What are the three? What are the three again? Man of the people. I kind of,

what's the other? I got blues here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, thanks, Rollo. But this is the point, which is you understand, it's an industry, it's a game. It's a game. There's a goof.

There's a role to play. Yes. And if you play a role with a nudge and a wink, this is the secret to longevity, which is take it, you take it seriously. Really seriously. But not,

but not too seriously. Well, you know, it's not self-important. It's not self-important. And the other thing is like I see, there's another, there's another thing that actors do where they go,

they want you to think like, you know, I didn't do up this tie because, you know, I'm above all this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, this premiere that I've flown to France to do.

Yeah. And this tucks that I've either bought or I'm rented or had fitted. Yeah. But I'm above all of it. And you can tell, you know why? Because my ties loose.

See? Just so you know. It's all bullshit. It's more bullshit-y than doing your fucking tie-up. You are going back to that tennis. Now everybody is out there Googling. I'm going to get a phone call from Joaquin Phoenix immediately. That tennis analogy is...

Premier bro. you know you're there you know you're there i know you're there everybody knows you're there you don't mind pissing people off you don't mind pissing people off or do they or do they just know that you're having fun they have to listen if somebody if the shoe were on the other foot i'd like i fucking love dude i if you're speaking being made fun of your relevant bro i'm watching family because we can't make fun of lily and gish you're dead can't make fun of dead people okay fine bad example Okay, so I'm trying to... Okay, I know, I got a story of it.

So I'm watching Family Guy with my boys. They're probably 10 and 11. Dad, you ought to watch Family Guy. You got to watch. Funny show ever. I watch. It's not the first episode I watched, but it's funny. It's really funny show.

And I'm watching it, and then there's an episode where Stewie, the crazy little baby, goes to Hollywood. And he's in a makeup chair. And this flamboyant man is doing his makeup. And the scene begins with Stewie. going, oh please, just let me do one more. Can I do one more? And then make a guy goes, of course, you can do one more.

And he goes, Roblo. And he goes, straight. And she goes, no. I never would have known it to look at him. And I thought it was the great, it's amazing. And I called Seth McFarland. And I go, dude, that's the funny. And we became friends.

And I've done a bunch of family guys. And we've worked together. a bunch, but he's gotten a lot of phone calls that were... How dare you? How dare you? But to be made fun of means you're relevant. You're in the zeit guys because nobody makes fun of people, unless you're making fun of the has-beenness of them, you know?

Yeah, I'm not taking a shot. Which is mean-spirited. I can take a fake-ass shot at Joaquin Phoenix because he's one of my favorite actors. Right. It's one of my favorite actors. He's one of the greatest actors we ever had. Right. He can still do his tie-up, but he's a great actor.

Yeah. If you weren't in show business, what would you be doing? I may not be in show business after this interview. That's true. You didn't go to college. That could not be more clear. He clearly did not go to college. No, no, you?

Yeah, he didn't. Oh, yeah. But I don't mean it in a mean way. No, I know. I mean, just like, I'm like serious. Like, you have been an actor your whole life. Like, what else could you do? Nothing.

Like, if this doesn't work out. Oh, bro. I can't change a light bulb. If this doesn't work out, this is it for me. My dad used to say, when I was 12, he used to say tons of supportive shit like this. You either better grow up to be a movie star or a prince. And royal family wasn't available.

Oh, I tried. Go on. Princess Stephanie. I dated her for like five years. Five months, whatever, felt like five years. I tried. I was like, you tried Prince. I tried.

I'm not cut out for it. I would have liked the diplomatic community. that would have been great like to have the pouch that you can put shit in all over the work and park wherever you want just like in a red light

get out not bill for it what was it a lot of long late dinners with people that you don't want to be with yeah

and nobody works but you have long late dinners with people who don't be with is there anybody else I can trash in this podcast I mean

this is like this is the episode we can call it the one where Robblow trashes everybody whoever yeah

Am I trashing? No, you're not. We're having fun. And we're pointing, we're doing authenticity. We're doing authenticity. We're pointing out the obvious. We're pointing out the things

that everybody already knows. That's the thing. I think that's what authenticity is, right? Yes. Which is like, why are you presenting to be perfect? We all know you're not. Yes. Because we're not.

Like we all know, we all know that everybody else tied the tie for their tuxedo. We all know that you didn't. Like, it's a, like either a stylist told you that would look cool. decided it would look cool or it's an affectation. Or maybe it's really your personality and you don't want to be at the thing and you're begrudgingly there.

Which is a thing. Which is a thing. I get that. I get that. And all you want to be as an actor, but your contract says you've got to go. That's real for people. You got to go do the press. I have respect and empathy for that.

There's a lot of actors who, I really, really, I just want to be really good. They begrudgingly go on talk shows. I have total respect and empathy for people who are not. They're not marketers. Well, and they're not comfortable in that lane. And I understand that. I really, really do. But I also understand it's a part of the job.

So for me, it's way, like meeting people on the street. I love people. I love meeting them. I love talking to them. It's way easier for me to take a picture, to say hello, than to say, I'm sorry, I don't take pictures. Yes. I've seen people do that to kids in a wheelchair. Yeah.

I've seen it with my own eyes. And when I go, what's that about? They say, if I make an exception here, I have to make an exception for everybody. And I've just made a rule. I am not taking pictures with people. I'll say hello to them. I'll have a conversation with them. And like, at the end of the day, take the fucking picture and move on.

Do you want to hear the best story I heard? I just heard this last night. So Paul McCartney, arguably one of the most famous people in the world, right? No one's Beatles proof, as he said. It's amazing. That's what he said. Yeah, no one's beetles proof. and people come up to him.

They muster up the courage to come up to him. And back in the day, before there were cell phones, you know, can I take a picture with you? Can I take a picture of you? And he would always say the same thing. I'm terribly sorry. I'm happy to talk to you. I'm happy to chat, but I don't take pictures.

If they take one, it'll be madness. It'll be a feeding friend. Yes. And totally understand that. Right. And he just, as a rule, Pull McCartney doesn't take pictures. September 11th happens. And he's down there and there's some firemen.

And he goes down to them and says thank you to them. And they say, can we have a picture? And he says, of course. Right. And there's a restaurant that wanted his picture and he, he wouldn't take a picture, but he gave them the picture of him with the fireman. Right. He's at the restaurant and somebody comes over to him.

The Tim says, Mr. McCartney, it's my wife's birthday. All she would love, she's a huge fan. Please can she have his picture with you? you know he goes I'm sorry I don't take pictures he goes but your pictures is that that's with fireman I took that with fireman but I'm sorry I don't take pictures I'm terribly sorry I appreciate you asking but I'm sorry I don't take pictures Paul McCartney gets up to walk out of the restaurant walks over the table and sings her happy birthday okay that is better that is better than a picture that is a story that's amazing there's something about a photo it's irrefutable evidence

that you can share with everybody of the I get why people want photos. No, no, I have photos with people. Like, I don't get starstruck with many people, but there are some that I really... And by the way, I did one with Paul. The last time I saw Paul, was at his, the last concert,

and he just showed up to the VIP. I said, I said, please, and it's in my last book. It's a picture of me standing there. And he's got the look of like, get it over with... But I made it. But it's your picture. You know what? And here's the thing is...

Because you have to. Because these guys. Nothing is... But there's a level of... a celebrity that is it's otherworldly of which he is one of that yeah the other one was Redford

I did it with where I was like I just I don't give a shit I'm taking yourself with it but I think it's fun when celebrities are starstruck by celebrities yes it's like we are the world

they're all like I can't what like they're all looking around my favorite documentary it was amazing documentary why was Dan Aykroyd there that's what I say I could have been there I was I want to go

I'm sorry it's 1985 yeah you were hello I know the fuck it really made me request like really go back and we know you can sing

and we know I can fake sing yeah and there's no bigger Springs team I was in the cut I was like but then again Madonna wasn't there either were you were you in were you at the Emmys because they was the American Music Awards oh it was the American okay we so

because they were all there because Dan Aykroyd wasn't at the American music awards I still don't know why was he supplying the drugs it never they never touched upon it in the documentary why Dan Aykroyd was there No. Does Dan Aykroyd know why Dan Aykroes?

Maybe it's a blue. He does have Blues Brothers. That's a real thing. And he can sing. He's the Blues Brothers. There's a real like sold out arenas. That's true. Okay.

I'll give him that. Yeah. And it was up the time. I feel better about myself. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, that's right. You didn't have a Blues Brothers type film and you weren't selling out

arenas for your singing. I was fake playing the saxophone and San Al almost fire at that very time. Did you at least take some training of where to put your fingers or were you literally just making up whatever? A little bit of both. A little bit of both. I'm always fascinated how much effort celebrities or actors, not celebrities, actors put in for a part like you have to learn the violin and you can tell if they're getting it, they're just making it up. And now with AI, you don't need to do any of it.

That's true. Have you done fighting scenes? Sure, lots of them. Like, are you good? Like, how many skills do you have? I have, oh, do you? That you'd never thought you would have. Can I tell you?

Can you sword fight? Can you shoot a gun? My abilities are literally a mile wide and an inch. deep. Like, I've played so many doctors. Like, if you were to, God forbid, have a medical emergency right now, I could, I'm almost certain I could almost save your life. I mean, just before we turned on the cameras, there was some smoke across the street. And you literally said, I've played a fireman. Don't worry, it's okay. It's white smoke. Yeah. I mean, you literally, you literally did the, I played a doctor on TV. And that's the, the beauty. And that's the

beauty of what I get to do is I learned so much. I have I have a lot of knowledge. No, actually, I want to know. I want to know the skills you have. We know you can act. We know you can. We know you can play other people. Shoot guns, ride horses. Um, you know, I could, I could put the, the fucking, I was watching Mission Impossible. Like, oh, they got put the pen in his lung to let the air I in. They did it. I'm like, I've done like, rescue people. What skills do you have that are applicable in the outside world that you learn because of a film or a TV show. So riding a horse, got it. You could ride a horse not on screen. Shooting a gun. Great. You could shoot. Could you pick up a gun, assemble it and shoot it? Yes. Blindfolded.

Okay. That's a skill. I could, if you were to tie me up, actually no later, we'll talk later. Turn up the cameras. If you're, if you were to tie my hands behind my back and tie my feet and throw me into the deep end of your pool, I could survive. That's good. Just like a Navy SEAL thing. I played a funny baloney navy seal yeah and they so you went through the training for a few days yeah you did a little bit of buds yeah totally so i can do i can do i can do i can do i can do ring pickups so i can do a lot of what's a ring pick up they don't do them anymore they're too violent even for the navy seals but they you you would surface in the middle of nowhere and you would tread water and put your arm in a in like a sea thing and then they as zodiac would come ripping down and would catch you and just flip you up into the

that sounds awful it's or and the navy seas only do it once what you do in the movie you're doing it 14 times what movie was this that you played in a terrible movie called the finest hour before chris pratt cornered the market on right on entertainment military entertainment um i i there were only very few navy seal movies and and like i would go to buds and they're like i love your movie i'm like it's the only it's really there's only been two navy seal movies it was bad called the finest hour bad but i but again the gift of that movie was that i got to learn a lot about that world and make a lot of friends in that world and have a little footprint in that world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really one of the best things about the crazy

life, which is you get to meet some amazing, amazing people. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So Paul McCartney is one of the highlights of your career meeting, Paul McCartney. Carrie Grant, you know, all those, Mick. I mean, you get to meet your heroes. There are very few people that I have an attitude. They always say don't meet your heroes, though. I would say don't get to know your heroes. Meeting is one thing. Okay. Like I, like, I'm friendly-ish with Bruce, Springsteen.

He's my favorite. He's my guy. Right. And it's gotten like, I know him enough now. Like, like, I don't, like, it's like, you just, it's, you don't even saying. It's like, it's hard. It's hard to, like, cry when he's singing the river when you're going to go pizza with him later. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's like, it gets hard. I just, I need, everybody needs to be a fan of somebody. It ruins some magic. Like, I remember the first time. There was this magic trick that I loved, super simple card trick that a friend of mine used to do. And I begged him to teach me so I could do it for other people. And he quizzed me. Why do you want to learn it?

I said, I want to learn it because I want to give other people to the feeling that you gave me. He's like, that's a good reason. I'll teach it to you. And he taught me the trick, and it completely ruined it because it's not magic. It's just a trick. And now that I knew the trick, I lost the magic. Don't lose the magic. Don't lose the magic.

Don't lose the magic. I think this is, and I think this is to your point, which is you can meet your heroes, just don't get to know your heroes, because it turns out they're people. And you said the song loses its magic because you know the person. Yeah. Some people can transcend it. Because awe of something or someone is a magical thing. Yes. The best. And you never want to lose all because that's jaded.

Yes. Yes. I'm definitely not jaded. I mean, it's weird. I'm cynical, but I'm not jaded. Is that even possible? No, no, I think so. I think, and it goes right back to where we started, which is you have joy. You have unbridled joy for life. You have unbridled joy for your career, for your craft. You have fun. And you take it seriously, but, and think what you teach us, and this is what I'm getting from you,

what I'm learning from, and you just can be very serious about something and have a lot of fun with something simultaneously. Yes. You can take life very seriously because life is serious, and you can have a lot of fun with it. And you can have the struggles and you can talk about your fuck. and you can talk about your own demons and you can have fun in all of that as well. There's absurdity and all the struggle and there's realness in all the fun. Like when I talk about drugs and alcohol, there's nothing more serious than that. There's nothing more serious than if you know someone who's suffering, really suffering

with drugs and alcohol. It's as serious as anything out there. And when I talk, share, speak around the country, which I do a lot, there are big time laughs big time in that because if you can find humor in that you can find humor in that you can find humor at anything and and and there are plenty of people who can talk very movingly and you get a lot from it and you're crying the whole time that's not why I got put here I got put here to to inject a different thing into the conversation. And it's taken me a lot of years to learn it and to learn that like to the extent that

anybody has a secret sauce, I think maybe that's mine. Stephen Colbert says, you know, you can't be angry or sad when you're laughing. I mean, literally, you know, the most difficult times where we're struggling or in sad, if somebody can make a joke, like humor matters. It's a salve, you know, it's a balm, you know? And you can't be angry and you can't be sad when you're laughing. I remember we talked to, it's so weird that my grandmother keeps coming up in our talks, but when you were on my podcast, we talked about my grandmother.

And I'm just remembering when she passed away, I was blessed to be at her bedside. and when she finally passed away, there's that moment where I go, now what happens? And a new nurse came in and looked at me and literally over my grandmother's not even still warm body

produced a pen and paper and said, could I get your autograph? She's handing it over my dead grandmother's body. And I remember going, yeah, I don't sign in pen. What are you going to do? You can get angry, but you have to see the, but this is the point. This is one of the things that I really appreciate about you, which is you see the absurdity

of life and the joy of life woven in. It's part of it, right? Like, it's all woven. It's a tapestry. And it's all for fun. And I think this is what authenticity is. And I think the reason you don't. get in trouble when you say some of the things you do is because people know it's it's just it's life

and you're just pointing at it I'm never saying anything it isn't I mean like anybody I'm capable of saying things that aren't true I'm capable of lying all the things that human beings do because we're flawed but when I'm doing that thing it's I'm they everybody knows that when they know that I'm right but the other thing that about longevity and like you know, I did television when movie people didn't do television. Like, I host a game show. That would be career death. Like, and I'm sure there are probably some actors.

I don't think Daniel Day Lewis is looking to do a game show. But what I, when they came to me with it, the reason I did it was I had just come off of doing a one-man show. being in front of a live audience with stakes like actual it's live to tape there's no second tape there's a hundred regular folks that you have to interact or you don't know what they're going to say you know what

it's a free shot on goal all the time there's money at stake that changes people's lives and you're the quarterback going do we need to be funny now do we need to be to embrace the drama oh do I do have to reset how much money we played and it's all happening all at once live in this enormous set. And it is so exciting. It's so exciting. And it's not at all

what I thought it would be. And yet it's more than I thought it would be. And it's, it's an error, it's a part of entertainment that I'd never been in. But this is, this is, this is, so you, we talked about this. So you were a movie actor where it was career death to do TV, you did TV. You're a movie and TV actor where it's considered sort of career death to now do a game show. What is the reason you take these pretty extreme pivots where the common sense of the industry is you probably shouldn't try that. Like what is the appeal of doing something so out of, you know, sort of off the game plan of the career? Well, or maybe it is the career plan. I like to think that I, because I could smell bullshit a mile away.

I can, and I hate artifice and pretension. So if you take those things out, then all of a sudden you're not judging a game show negatively. And I know what it means to people. Like people watch the floor in a way that they don't watch anything else I've ever done. I have eight-year-olds watching with their parents. I love that. That does not happen.

They're not all getting together to watch euphoria. Right. Right. They're not. And the parents aren't there watching the summer I got pretty or whatever the fuck. We live in a world in which everybody goes to their separate room to watch their TV shows. And rare are the shows that a family comes together and sits on a couch and watches together. And when I get that and I get it all the time, that means a lot to me.

Rob Lo, you are uniting families. I'm bringing back the family. You're bringing back the family. One quiz show at a time. One quiz show at a time. Doing the Lord's work. That's right. Of all the characters you've played, who's your dream intern?

Who's your CEO and who's getting fired? Oh, wow. Dream intern? Chris Traeger, Parks and Recreation. Who's your CEO? I'm going with Sam Seaborne. He was running the White House, effectively. Who's getting fired?

Oh, 100% my character I played in Californication. Eddie Niro. He's getting fired. He's going to HR immediately. You've worked with your son. What's one piece of advice you'd give someone about working with family? Do it whenever you can. It's the greatest gift.

The shorthand. The pride. Is it strange playing a character with your son playing a character? Yes. Because, I mean. Yes, very much so. And then you can't help yourself. And also just accept the fact that you lean into the fact that you're still dad.

Like his thing is he calls, he, we'd never call me dad on the set. It was always Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, as if I was, as if everybody didn't know. I want to go, hey, they know. Right. But we would be in a scene and I would just be thinking, I don't like his hair like that. He needs a haircut. Do you have any like? Kind of help yourself.

Yeah, I can't help myself. Or like, I'd be like, I think he needs to engage his core the way he's standing here. So, and then we ended up writing that into the show. Unstable, still streaming on Netflix. Two seasons available. Anything that you've learned, career or personal that just help you get through the day make life a little easier?

Mm. Mm. Um, living gratitude, um, manage expectations. Yours or other people's? Eh, mine.

Rob, such a joy. So fun. You're so fun. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. That was great. Thank you. A bit of optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team Lindsay Garbenius and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile,

please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. simply go to simonsenic.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.