A Bit of Optimism - Setting Boundaries with Sara Kuburic

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

Despite all our “social” media, more and more people report feeling lonelier, more stressed and more adrift than ever before. How can we protect our mental health and still engage with friends on Instagram, etc? To find out, I called Sara Kuburic – an existential psychotherapist, war survivor, and the mind behind the massive and brilliant Instagram account @Millennial.Therapist.  Her insights on self-love, trauma and authenticity reveal both a kind heart and profound wisdom. This is… A Bit of Optimism.If you want to know more about Sara and her work, check out:https://www.sara-kuburic.com/https://www.instagram.com/millennial.therapist/https://twitter.com/SaraKuburic 

Sarah Kubrick is a writer and existential psychotherapist. She writes a weekly column for USA Today, but online she is the millennial therapist. She has a wonderful perspective on authenticity, self-love, acceptance, and responsibility. self-love, acceptance, and responsibility. And in this time of high stress, high anxiety, I wanted to talk to her more about how we can protect our mental health. This is a bit of optimism. Sarah, you call yourself an existential therapist, an existential psychotherapist. I understand what those words mean, but you put them together. So I have to ask, what exactly is an existential therapist? So an existential therapist is someone who helps people figure out their meaning in life and helps them figure out who they are. So how long have you

been doing this? The therapy, I mean, including training, probably like eight years. On my own, probably like four. And have you noticed a change in the questions people are asking or the challenge that they're facing in the past eight years? Absolutely. I mean, it's really difficult for me to say it's because society is changing. It could also be that my demographic is changing as well. But I would argue that especially with COVID, everyone became a bit more existential.

I feel like there was an existential crisis overall. So especially in 2020, people started to ask the question, what for? I think a lot of people mistook kind of their roles or their success as their identity. And when that was stripped away during COVID, they all went, okay, but who am I now that I can't go into my office. And so I think priorities shifted. I think purpose became something that was on their radar. And I think for all of them, they realized that money couldn't help them, if that makes sense. They were still as miserable and lonely. They couldn't buy their way out of this one.

They couldn't buy their way out of this one. And I think it really shifted their priorities. And do you think it's sticky? Because when you're in crisis, it's like being in a troubled relationship. You fantasize about the future and the grass is always greener. But as soon as it's over, back to the way things were. Sometimes it's sticky. And I'm curious if you think once they have that direction, that they're going to completely follow that direction? Or once the world goes back to semi-normal-ish, that it'll all be forgotten until the next crisis? I think it's probably the latter. Oh, good. You're cynical like me.

I'm super cynical. I'd like to think this is a big awakening for people. And I just don't think that's true for everybody. I think that humans have the tendency to gravitate towards the familiar, the comfortable, and you changing your life because you had an epiphany usually doesn't fall into that category, right? Living an authentic life takes a lot of work and intention and many, many decisions that people don't want to make. So I think it's going to be really hard, especially because although people are changing their priorities or finding their meaning, for most of them, it's not actually rooted in who they are. Most of them don't know who they are. And so I think when those two are disconnected, you're more likely to not follow through. or I know my value, I know my worth, I'm out of here. Pursuing a dream, as you said, takes a lot of work and a lot of difficult decisions.

And so I'm curious, based on the people you're talking to, if they're part of this, A, what the great resignation means, and if it's less sticky than we would both like it to be, then what are the repercussions over the next year or two? I feel like there are a lot of studies that show the impact COVID has had on our mental health because of the prolonged chronic state of the unknown and how difficult that is for us. So our coping mechanisms that often worked don't. And so the freeze, flight, fight, you can't do that for two years straight.

And so we're noticing a decline in mental health. Maybe people are having these moments of I'm going to change my life and I've survived this. And now I'm going to embrace the unknown. I would also suggest that it's already a shit show. I feel like if you fail now, you're not the only one failing. I feel like there is just this safety blanket there. If you quit your job now, when everyone else is quitting their job, or people are being laid off, and then you don't succeed, you're just one of the people that didn't succeed. But you didn't do that five years ago, when everyone wanted stability. And that was something that was really obtainable for the masses. I think it's also an excuse for a large amount of people to do it because they're not happy or they don't want to put in the work.

And they think the solution is to do something different rather than to work harder. And so, you know, and they're going to find that out once they switch their career track and don't succeed. And I'm not saying that's for everybody. I preface this with being a bit cynical, but I think when I hear you talking about it, when I think of my own experiences in community, that's kind of what comes to mind. Okay. So I know you're the millennial therapist because you're a millennial, not because you necessarily only talk to millennials, but let's be honest, millennials love you. As you're talking about, you know, they're doing it now because it feels like the stakes are lower and there may be a shock later when they realize

there's actually a lot of work to do in whatever this new thing they want to do is sounds eerily like some of the complaints levied against the millennial generation in the past discuss look i don't think that millennials are entitled or lazy across the board. I actually don't think that's true at all. I think millennials work really freaking hard. And I think what we've accomplished as a generation is quite remarkable. We've changed society. I genuinely believe that.

Do I think we always have the tools to cope with the society we've created? No. I think there's so much pressure on us in any really job at this point that it's okay if you're failing too. Like there is grace there for me because now it's not enough that you just have a job, but it has to be a really cool job that also your friends kind of want. And you also have to be super meaningful, but you also need to be making millions and you also need to be an activist in some way. And you also, and also, and also. And so the stakes are just so high. And I think we have set unrealistic expectations. And so people walking away, part of it makes sense. And part of it could be for their own

mental health. And part of it could be just that we don't have the tools to stick it out. What are some of those tools that you think are lacking? So millennials, I think from my work, at least again, I cannot speak for millennials. No, no, of course. We understand. No, you're making generalizations based on observation. And of course, it doesn't apply to everybody. Of course.

Cool. Okay. Nice disclaimer. I think that we are really not in touch with ourselves. I think there's so much stimulation that comes from the outside. There's so many expectations, need for validation, all the stuff that was present before. But I think the social media enhanced it. I think that scrolling through your phone is a form of escapism, of calming down, of

coping. I don't think we sit there and go, oh, my God, I'm uncomfortable. So I'm going to check in with myself and take a deep breath. We're like, I'm feeling something. So I'm going to grab my phone. I'm peeing. So I'm going to grab my phone. And there's absolutely no moments of solitude and reflection unless you're really intentional about it, just because it's not really constructed to be that way anymore. And so what, like now you even have little commercials on buses and like little TVs in, in cabs, like you're being told something all the time. And so we're not listening to ourselves. And so I think that millennials don't have the tools necessarily to figure out how they're feeling. It's really as basic as, you know,

some of my clients in the first couple of sessions can't identify an emotion that they're experiencing. I also think another tool that really translates to workspaces is boundaries. I don't think, you know, millennials know how to set boundaries necessarily because we want it all and we want it now. And there's something really cool about that and motivational. And then there's also something super unrealistic. And so I think those two tools just like translate to us doing poorly in any context, not just work. Give me an example of the inability to set a boundary professionally or personally and how it backfires. For example, I won't answer emails after 8pm. example, I won't answer emails after 8pm. And then you go, I feel pressure to do work or fulfill this task after 8pm. Although you know that you're too tired, and you're not focused, and then you don't perform super well. And then it backfires in two ways. One,

you betrayed yourself, you didn't take care of yourself. Your mental health might suffer. And then the second is your performance sucked. And so there's really no win there. And I think we just want to please not realizing that actually boundaries can preserve some of those relationships, including work relationships. So you're advocating, I will not check an email after 8pm. advocating, I will not check an email after 8pm. Depending on your job. Yeah. Like set some parameters that make sense for your job in particular. I concur. I like when, when we set boundaries. And I like when my team, like we force our team to set boundaries. Like we don't want people working on the weekends. But we always add, unless there's a real need to. But I think that's lost. In my experience with some people, that little caveat that there's always exceptions to these policies rather than rules,

there are always extenuating circumstances. And that little nuance, which I think is very, very important, is lost. As an employer, or or just as a friend or just as somebody in society or as an observer. The understanding between a rigid boundary and a flexible boundary, that those distinctions seem to be fuzzy today. Super fuzzy. And I think that the whole mental health movement, Instagram therapy, quote unquote, has maybe made that worse. I think that people just didn't know what boundaries were. And I'm so glad that we are talking about the concept of boundaries. But I think sometimes people take, okay, I'll give you an example. I have had a friend text me and go, I just had a huge argument with a family member about

boundaries. And they sent me your post to prove their point. And then I had to go and find another post to explain how actually I was right. And so they were exchanging my posts during a fight. Wow, bless. You know, like this is not what my content is for. Please don't do this, whatever. But it really got me thinking of how people, they see what they want to see. They take what they want to take. Right. So especially they've been abused or, or misused or mistreated.

They're more likely to overcorrect and have super strict boundaries. And so that's just process of learning. You hope that those people will then eventually go fall into the flexible boundaries. So I understand, but I think because there is education and because as therapists, we're always preaching boundaries, the nuance might be lost sometimes. And people might be super extreme. And then of course, you're going to get fired. Of course, you're going to be a terrible worker. Of course, you're not going to be able to have a healthy relationship because they're completely closed off and they're using them more as a form of isolation and distance than understanding and connection, right? Yes. And then it sets off this

cycle of I'm struggling. I lack the coping mechanisms to deal with stress or uncertainty. I read. I get my therapy from Instagram. But you shouldn't. It's not therapy. Right. Somebody sent me a meme. I saw a thing on Instagram.

It all made sense to me. That's the solution to my problem. I implement the thing. It didn't work. I'm more insecure, more uncertain. The vicious cycle continues. And then we end up with clinical anxieties and depressions or worse. And so to your point, which I find so know, to someone like you, not just reading

a book or an article or a meme or a post and saying, I've got it. And I struggle with it because there are people who I care about and love who I want to be there for, but the desire to have engage in that difficult discussion is not there. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. The whole point of my Instagram, too, wasn't initially to necessarily educate. It was to get people curious about themselves. It is not the Bible of psychology. It is not, you know, the final word. It's meant to evoke or even sometimes provoke things. And then it's up to you to,

you know, figure it out. Like sometimes I'll get comments and people will be like, well, how do I deal with it? Or you didn't give us a solution. It's like, well, I'm not actually here to give you the solution. It's part of your own personal experience. You need to tell me what you want to do next. Now that you're aware of the fact that these things resonate with you. And I think we all want those quick answers. And that's something I try really hard not to offer. Because the point is for me, yes, to raise awareness, but really, it's for you to start having inner dialogue, not for me to tell you what to do, because then we're losing a really important skill, which I think is ultimately the most

important skill, which is self-awareness. Changing tacks on you. Where are you right now? I am in Amsterdam right now. So where do you consider home? I just technically have become based in Australia as of 2020, but I'm a Canadian citizen. So I'm kind of straddling Canada and Australia at the moment. And what is the reason for your nomadic lifestyle? I honestly think it had something to do just with my upbringing and being an immigrant and

all that good stuff and always moving as a child. But I genuinely enjoy it. I started in my mid-20s as a way to work on myself, find myself, you know, all the stereotypes. But he actually worked. And it was a really profound experience for me. I got to live in countries and within cultures that I never thought I would. And then I started to be curious. What did you discover about yourself? I think when everything changes

constantly, it forces you to find yourself real quick because you're the only constant. And I think when we're in routine, it's so easy to blame other people or contexts. And I think when you're the only common denominator, you're like, oh shit, it's me. Oh, that me and so it was really it was an awakening journey I think also living in cultures that are not super easy for women was difficult for me but I think it also empowered me to think about what is being a woman and what does that mean for me and so there's a ton of stuff facing my own you know know, childhood trauma, going back to Serbia, realizing that trauma doesn't define you. And it's something that can build resilience. And so I think there was just an endless stream of things that I learned in each place that I went to. Were you in Serbia, in Yugoslavia, when it was no longer becoming Yugoslavia?

Were you there for the war? I was there for the war in 91. That was in Bosnia. Actually, I was born in Bosnia. So that genocide occurred during that time. And my family flew to nowadays Serbia. And then the Kosovo War occurred. And then we immigrated to Canada. So I got to kind of experience both of those.

How long were you in this high stress environment? It depends what you define as high stress environment. I still feel high stress environment when I go there. It's such an intense atmosphere still. It's such a traumatic atmosphere. I really don't know how to, like you feel depressed after being there for a couple months. We were there a year after the war ended in Kosovo. And then we left, I think, high stress. I was probably only there for about two months in Serbia during the bombings.

And then we escaped to Bosnia. And that was interesting because we each had to do it separately. I was like nine. And so when you talk about COVID, that we can't be on this fight or flight response for an extenuating period of time. I think about my grandmother, my grandfather. My grandfather was off to war in the Second World War, but my grandmother was back in London, living through the Blitz. I remember the beginning of COVID, you know, the panic that we all felt. What gave me calm was thinking of my grandmother through the Blitz, which is if we stayed home, we were 100% safe. And my grandmother, like so many during the Blitz, they went to work every day. And a building that was there yesterday is not there today.

And you were safe nowhere at any time. I thought about that, that she got through that and was still strong through her whole life, that if she could get through that, man, I could get through this. And I have a great aunt that lived through the Holocaust and she was a rock and her husband wasn't. that, man, I could get through this. And I have a great aunt that lived through the Holocaust, and she was a rock. And her husband wasn't. And she said, if you went through something like that,

you came out of it only one of two ways. You came out of it stronger, or you came out of it broken. That was it. Agreed. Yeah, absolutely. And it was interesting to watch my family during their pandemic. They were so chill. Like there was panic. There was so much panic. And they were just like, we're so blessed. We have food. It's okay. We're at home. We're together.

And he wasn't like that forced positivity, be grateful for what you have, which, you know, has its place, but he really wasn't forced. They were genuinely just grateful. And that was interesting to see that for many people, COVID was the worst thing they've ever experienced, or the biggest threat that was ever imposed on them. And for people that it wasn't, I think COVID was slightly less traumatizing. If I can use that word, and just looking at my family, I mean, they did hoard food, definitely were one of those people. And I think that was more of a trauma response, honestly, just because we've

been in situations where we just didn't have food. But other than that, they were just so happy. They went on their one hour nature walks. And it was really interesting to see that division of people that have lived through things. And this was just another thing they knew that they were capable of surviving. And then individuals that felt really threatened, existentially threatened for the very first time. Which raises a very interesting question, because for quite a long time, and I don't mean this generation, meaning like millennials or anything like that, but this generation, meaning the time we're living in, it's been pretty cushy. The Cold War's gone. and then since the fall of the Berlin Wall, like nobody's really felt much existential threat of anything,

so much so that we seem to be looking for it, that we seem to be looking to find meaning in ourselves by anointing someone else the existential threat, whether it's political divide or others. But the point is it's pretty soft and goes to your point, which is lack of experience, lack of difficulty, lack of stress. You know, you don't develop the skill set to deal with it. And I wonder if we flash forward 10 or 20 years, and this is the thing I'm so curious about, which of course, there's no way to know but to wait. Like those who lived through the Second World War, the Great

Depression, for the rest of their lives, reused every jam jar and saved every piece of tinfoil because they lived through rations. I'm so curious, the 10 and 12 and 13 and 14 year olds during COVID, are they going to be like really good at reading people's eyes because they haven't seen the rest of their faces? Are they going to be like afraid to shake people's hands? Like what quirks are their grandkids going to make fun of them for that were formed right now? I just think it's kind of valuable to have a little trauma in your life now and then. I'm not talking about existential trauma, but to have a little difficulty seems like a good thing, no?

Well, I was just going to say, I think there's a difference between getting skills to cope with stress and experiencing severe trauma. Yes. I mean, I wouldn't say that every generation or everyone benefits from living through severe trauma. Yes. You know, I wouldn't go as far. Difficulty. Difficulty. Difficulty. Yeah. You know, a professor of mine said there is no change without tension or difficulty. And I genuinely believe that as well. I think you need to learn. I think you need to learn. And I think difficulty, why millennials get so much shit, this means defending them, is that the difficulties they're experiencing are not as valued as the difficulty that our parents have experienced. So we go, well, you didn't live through a war, so calm down and get some resilience.

But in reality, I think the psychological warfare of social media and everything they have to put up with could be just as severe. It's just very, very different. So I do think that we have some very tough lessons to learn as millennials, especially Gen Zers, which I think, in my personal opinion, I'm the most cared for. Yeah, I'll try that Gen Z for those who aren't Canadian or English. Oh, yeah, sorry. Sorry, I'll translate for you. It's fine. Thank you.

But here's the twisted irony, right? And I think you're onto something, which is that there is real difficulty and little t trauma that people are experiencing with the social media wars and the ghostings and the taking your opinions out publicly and humiliating people and preserving. When I tripped over in the cafeteria and made a fool of myself, everybody laughed at me, made fun of me for the day, and it was over. Now someone's going to video it, and it's going to be on YouTube for the rest of my life, or worse, texted to everybody in some group chat, and I won't ever be able to let go.

I understand those difficulties and those little T traumas, and sometimes those lead to big T traumas. those difficulties and those little t traumas, or sometimes those lead to big t traumas. And the irony here is those that went through war went through it together, physically, actually. As you know, when we go through shared hardship, it produces oxytocin, which actually strengthens relationships. And here you have people going through these difficulties in these little t traumas alone. And where I struggle and I have huge empathy is the lack of skill set to ask for help. And even going inside and finding yourself and asking yourself questions, I still think requires help. It could be a friend.

It could be a therapist. It could be a loved one, a family member. But to try and do this thing called life alone is madness. Life is way too difficult. None of us are strong enough or smart enough, especially if you're in pain. The lack of clarity and objectivity when you're in it. And so there's a great irony, which is the generation that is suffering from difficulty and trauma because of the pressures that they face

alone, connected to their telephones or their social media, is exaggerating their need to ask for help, which literally is missing. I think that's part of the expectation, is that you will do it on your own. This is the construct that we have, that we're so incredibly independent, that we don't need what everyone else needed that now we're self-sufficient then I have no idea where this narrative came from but it's so prevalent that now when we can't do it alone which we absolutely cannot like we have a basic human need for connection um then we feel like a failure and there's shame for doing something that's as natural as breathing, essentially. And so that's, it's a big lose-lose. And we also have this assumption that because

we're on social media, we're connecting. There's a difference between being noticed and being generally acknowledged. You know, someone liking something of yours, and someone actually validating you and seeing you and appreciating you for who you are, I think there's just this lack of actual genuine connection, and lack of acknowledgement of who we are as people. And so then that intensifies the loneliness, because it doesn't matter if you have a big social media following, I know a ton of influencers that almost committed suicide. It's not about that. You're still alone because you're not genuinely connecting.

And I think millennials have confused connection with social media because it's a platform where we connect. I think your distinctions are so good. Noticed, but not acknowledged. Liked, but not validated. That we've confused those terms, confused the meaning.

Are the themes that we're talking about consistent around the world? Or is this a very ethnocentric point of view? I think loneliness is a really prevalent one almost everywhere I've traveled, just because we talked about it. And I think the identity crisis is huge. It's not just a North American thing. I think when I lived in the Middle East, a lot of people, you know, were educated maybe in London or, you know, went to university in New York and then they came back and then they didn't feel like they fit or they're so exposed to media in

Hollywood and whatever. And so now they kind of want to integrate that into their society, but it's not working and they feel alone and they feel misunderstood and they're not connecting. What do you recommend is a healthy way to interact with social media? Know why you're on it. Why are you posting? Why are you looking? I mean, this is a conversation I had with myself. Are you posting a picture because you want people to make you feel good that day? Are you posting a picture because you want to share an experience that you enjoyed? Is it because you want people to genuinely see you? Is it because you want people to see this persona of you? Like, what is your intention with every post?

There's times when, you know, no one likes my post. And I'm like, damn it, I really like this post. Why don't people like it? And at the start, it used to really upset me because I'm like, damn it. I really like this post. Why don't people like it? And at the start, it used to really upset me because I'm like, what is this? And then I got to go, okay, why are you posting this? Is this something that you think might be of value to two people? And if it is, is that fulfilling the mission of this post? And it's like, yeah, it is. I want to communicate this. I think this is meaningful and this is how I'm experiencing the world. So this is just what I'm sharing. And I'm not expecting anything back. And so setting those boundaries with yourself is so important. When you outsource yourself love and self acceptance and self validation to other people, then you're in trouble. That's well put. Can you tell me an early specific happy childhood memory?

It was during the war, ironically. We escaped to Bosnia, just my siblings. My parents stayed in Serbia because they had to. And I was on my grandpa's farm and there was a little forest. And my brother made me a treehouse. Actually, we made it together. So every day we would go and bring the supplies and cut the wood. And we would make this like little tree house together. And then he would teach me how to sword fight.

And so I just got to spend so much time with my brother. And I think he made it a really special time, even though if you think about it rationally, it was probably one of the most stressful times for the adults. You know what I've learned from this whole conversation with you? That you have devoted your life to helping people build a treehouse where they can find safety. And you'll teach them how to sword fight. And you'll do the work with them, but they still have to do the work with you. Like you're not going to build it for them. They have to gather wood as well.

But your role in life is to help people build the treehouse that they can live in and feel safe. I love that. That really deeply resonates. I mean, I didn't think of a cool analogy like that before, but that does deeply resonate with me. Thank you, Sarah Kubrick, for helping us think and for being so willing to help us build a treehouse in which we can feel safe.

If you're interested in learning more about Sarah and her work, follow her on Instagram at at Millennial Therapist. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.