A Bit of Optimism - The Future of Leadership with educator Elizabeth English

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

When we want wisdom, we turn to people older than us. But there is a lot to be learned from younger generations too.Elizabeth English knows this. She’s the head of one of the most innovative schools in the country, The Archer School for Girls and has spent her career working with -- and learning from -- younger generations.We sat down to talk about: the problems facing parents today, why kids need and thrive from rules, boundary setting, phone addictions, and how her students make her hopeful for the future.This is...A Bit of Optimism.For more on Elizabeth and her work check out: https://www.archer.org/about/from-the-head-of-school 

They say that with age comes wisdom. But there is a lot to learn from our young generations too. That's why I invited Elizabeth English to share what she's learning. She's the head of school at the Archer School for Girls, one of the most forward-thinking schools in the country. Archer is constantly experimenting with new and better ways to teach as well as how to equip young people with the interpersonal skills they need to thrive as adults. I asked Ms. English to share her thoughts

on the problems facing parents today, boundary setting, why kids need and thrive from rules, boundary setting, why kids need and thrive from rules, phone addictions, and how her students make her hopeful for the future. This is a bit of optimism. I'm very, very excited to have you here. You and I met actually many years ago because a parent whose kids went to Archer School invited me to come and I talked to the upper school and got a tour of the school and met you all those years ago. Right. And here we are now all these years later. So thank you so much for coming. You have a unique insight.

Politicians and parents and speeches at birthdays, they always say you are the future, you know, whatever that means. And you actually have probably more insight about what the future could look like with this young generation, in your case of girls, coming through the school system. Are you confident making any predictions about what the future of leadership could look like as you look through the lens of the students you have now? Yes. Actually, I am confident. Okay. Now I'm curious. Our students, teenagers in particular, are so acutely aware of the failures that they see in those who are, quote, unquote, leading.

They understand what's happening. They are so much more sophisticated than we give them credit for. what's happening. They are so much more sophisticated than we give them credit for. And somehow they remain hopeful about their ability to make an impact. I think we not only have a generation of kids who are injured by what's happening, they're burdened, but they're also angry and it's powerful and they're determined to do something with that anger. They understand that they don't really have a choice. They can be disaffected and give up, but that's not what they're choosing. That's not what I see them choosing. Our kids are so mindful of all of these things, including screen addiction and climate change and gun violence and political dysfunction, the fact that they can continue to be mindful, I am hopeful.

Let's delve into a few things there. You say they're injured. Describe their injuries. Psychic injuries. Stress, burden. Yeah, burden. It's two things. Yeah, burden. It's just they – it's two things. One, as a world, we are facing – and as a country, I'll narrow it down. We are facing an existential crisis.

Yeah. political tribalism or other types of tribalism or just lack of leadership maybe in another time these students would not have been as conscious of it but because they are switched on to their media feed they can't get away from it they can't get away like if their parents are talking about msnbc is playing in the background or fox news but if you're on social media and you're just doom scrolling even if they're not people you're following, you know, this is the worst thing about social media, which is they show you things that aren't things that you're following. And you will be hit with polarizing images, images of destruction, of war, of all these things. They can't avoid it. Yeah, exactly. sent out an alert saying, all students and families must delete TikTok and Instagram or

something to that effect. Because of course, there's this propaganda going around, images of violence in Israel and Gaza, et cetera. And our take on that is like, we can't tell them to delete these things. That's their reality. Delete your reality. No. We have to do consciousness raising. We have to teach them civil discourse. We have to help them acknowledge their feelings while also managing them enough to engage in a rational way. Okay. I mean I don't even know where to begin. So how do you teach consciousness raising?

How do you teach civil discourse? You know, they're also teenagers. And that comes with a whole host of stresses and problems of which civil discourse rarely fits into that. You know, how do you teach awareness being able to manage stresses that they have no control over, like war in faraway lands? Where do you even begin? We do have norms of discourse that we review at the beginning of every kind of conversation. For example?

Listen on Channel 2. Listen actively. Don't simply wait for your turn to speak. Remember that empathy is one of our core values. Remember that we can sit in a room and disagree, but there's no place for shaming, for blaming, for shutting down. And we just have a whole list of things, and the kids all know what they are. I mean, I think, Simon, if you were to come in and see a group of our students actively engaged in debate over things they genuinely personally don't agree

on, you would be optimistic too. It's funny you say that because I've been involved with some groups who are sort of education reform and education experts, you know. And they say government is a bit of the problem. Principals are a bit of the problem. You know, teachers are a bit of the problem. But the biggest problem is the parents. You know, every parent wants you to change the education system. Just don't experiment on my children.

Try it at another school and let me know what you bring over. experiment on my children. Try it at another school and let me know what you bring over. Or what I've heard, like principals and heads of school have attempted to ban cell phones at their school. And it's the parents who put extreme pressure and say, absolutely not. We have to get a hold of our kid in an emergency because the old system of calling the front office and they know exactly where your kid is, doesn't work anymore for some reason. Say more about that. When you say it's the parents, like say more. Well, I think that parents are genuinely worried about their kid's future. Understandably. Understandably. Not just for the socio-political things that we mentioned, but also because income inequality, for example, in this country is unavoidable, undeniable. And it used to be that

there was sort of a comfortable middle class. I mean, my parents never worried that I would surpass them, right? My dad was an immigrant. I had a good education. They were not worried about my future. I think today parents are genuinely and probably justifiably worried about their kids' capacity to do well. They know there's a whole generation of young people who can't afford to buy a house and can't, you know, will not live at the same standard of living. And so I am empathetic, but at the same time, that breeds this anxiety and desire to sort of micromanage the school and strategically plan the kid. We see a lot of crazy stuff, like sixth grade parents with college consultants, you know?

Oh, yeah. I have to respectfully tell people, like, well, think about the message you're sending to your kid. You're not enough. We've got to strategically plan you. And it's just that people can't help themselves. They're worried. Okay. So we're going to talk more about the kids in a moment. But so how do you help the parents? Tons of parent education.

We don't do your typical parent association meeting. Every time we bring parents onto campus, it's around educating them. It's around a topic. Can you engage with them? Oh, yeah. Yes. How do you teach parents civil discourse when they disagree? We talk about it openly. We show them, this is what we're teaching your kids. Oh, I see. Clever. Yes. And then we ask that you uphold these values at home. Help us. We're partnering.

We have something called the Archer School for Parents. And when they come for a college meeting, when they come for back to school day, it's all designed to educate them. If we go back in time, people got their sense of belonging from church. And they got their sense of community from the bowling league. And they actually on the weekends had barbecues with their neighbors. And work was a place you went to to get paid just to live a life and pay your bills. And as time progressed, bowling leagues disappeared. Church attendance has declined. We don't really have barbecues with our neighbors anymore. And so we're now asking our companies to fill the void.

We want all our sense of community, all our sense of belonging, all our sense of purpose, our social lives, community. And now the new one is, and my work also has to reflect my politics. All in one place, which is, it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It just, it is. And so are you finding the same pressure as what I'm hearing? Are you finding the same pressure that now parents who are looking for their companies to fill it in their lives are pushing the school to provide all those things for their kids' lives? Parents and employees. Oh, that's a true too. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm getting emotional as I'm listening to you because

I grew up outside of Boston and my, as I mentioned, my dad was an Italian immigrant. My mother didn't go to high school. My siblings didn't graduate from high school. I'm the first, not only my family, to go to college, but apart from my father to graduate from high school. I had a fantastic public school education. There were social programs in my town where we had free access to healthcare. There were summer programs where I would get to go to the, you know, Boston Museum of Fine Arts. It was all free. I'm emotional because now we're such a transient society. And I think that's where you see the disappearance of the barbecue and the bowling league. And then furthermore, I remember my dad, he was a union man and felt very taken care of by AT&T, which was his employer for 45 years.

And people don't feel that sense of security, either coming from their place of work or in their community. It's like the neighbor you had yesterday is moving out tomorrow. It's really destabilizing for our kids. They don't feel secure for lots of reasons, but that's one of them. And that's why we do try to provide that sense of security at school. We're happy to do that, but there's a limit to how much one institution can provide for all the folks who are affiliated with it, right? Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I'm, and this is where I find what your work is so interesting, the thing that I'm trying to teach to adults is how to make friends.

Because the only stable thing that you can rely on if it's not going to be work, and it's not going to be where you live, and it's not going to be, you know, and you can go down the list, is make sure you really, really take care of people so that people really take care of you. 100%. really, really take care of people so that people really take care of you. A hundred percent. And I'm very curious how, especially in a day and age where adults struggle to hold each other's attention because we pull out our phones and you feel disconnected in your own home with your own partner.

How are you able to manage young people who have more addictive personalities than adults when it comes to dopamine? It requires even more dopamine for that good hit, which means they're getting more of it running through their veins. Phones and distractions and teenagerness. How are you teaching? I mean, literally, what are the steps that you're using to teach kids how to rely on each other when they feel sad, angry, bad, to turn to another person, not a device. How do you teach that? We explicitly teach self-regulation.

It is, to my mind, one of the most important skills that any kid can leave school with. So define self-regulation first of all. Right. So first of all, the ability to know when you are emotional. I am sad. I am angry. Yes. And I'm observing it. the ability to know when you are emotional. I am sad. I am angry. Yes, and I'm observing it. I know this about myself.

I'm not, quote-unquote, out of my mind. I may be out of my mind, but I have enough metacognition to know, and therefore I can acknowledge it and not do harm in the midst of it. How do you teach that? In human development, we teach it. We have these periods in the schedule where we have a block and we'll have someone come in and talk about it. We have the older students talk about it with the younger students. We talk about addiction, dopamine, screen addiction. I think it was you who said this, Simon, and I have repeated it so many times since. When you are on your phone in the midst of someone else, it's a sign of not caring about them.

That's true. When you say that, they know because they have been across from a parent, a sibling, a friend who's like an addict. That is literally what it feels like. It feels like you're in the presence of an addict. Anyway, the point is this. We teach them very, very explicitly what happens to their brains and that they are enthralled to these things. They know. And it's funny. We said to them at the beginning of the year, huge push around not looking at your phones, not being in the hallways on your phones, et cetera. And we said to them, when you get stressed, when the homework starts to pile up, when the assessments start to come due, you're going to

want to pick up that phone more than ever. So we're going to check in with you. We're going to have phone-free Fridays. You've got to give them practice. They don't even know what a quiet mind is. I talked to some parents not too long ago who were struggling with their 14-year-old boy who had so much social anxiety and so much phone addiction that when the doorbell rang, he couldn't answer the door in case there was a person there. The family was very concerned, and they tried many things to get the kids off the phones, and they couldn't. They couldn't do it. And so what they decided to do is they went on vacation and they took one phone for the family, you know, one of the parents brought their phone and the kids were forced to leave their phones

at home, which that didn't go well. They said the first two or three days of the vacation were absolutely awful. And there was complaining and there was, why'd you take my phone? And then after about three or four days, it settled and they connected and they talked and they joked and they sang songs and they looked out the window and they said it was the single best vacation they've ever had in their lives because they went, I mean, obviously, because they went as a family, not as me talking to the person who's back home, you know, while I'm away. The things that you're talking about, one of the things you talked about there was that you have these phone-free Fridays and you have these outbounds. These are things that parents can do for their kids without a school. These are things that we can do with the people we love.

These are things that we can do at work. You can have no phones in conference rooms. Like we can do these things. And I think what's so interesting is you're building practices and structure as opposed to just shaming. Like we don't offer help to people. Like I think we all know it's bad and yet we're all still doing it.

What other practices are you offering structure? Because I know you're a great believer in structure and rules to help people learn. Yeah, well, okay. First of all, it's consciousness raising. Second of all, teaching of skills. Like what do you do to help yourself? Parents, what do you do to help your kid?

But also, like, boundaries, people. You know, like, it's hard for our parents to parent oftentimes. They really wanna be friendly with their kids. They don't want the conflict. They're tired. They're working hard to get ahead. And I just said to our parents, like, your kids need you to be the parent, and they need boundaries.

That's what helps them feel safe. So a lot of what we do is coach parents to feel okay about being the parent, and we bring them together in these circles where parents of older students will literally coach younger parents. Wow. It's so many similarities to what you're attempting to do in the school with parents and students, as I see in the corporate world with leaders and the folks who work with them, where they're responsible for them. And I definitely made this mistake as a young leader myself, which is I wanted to be the best leader. And I was going to be friends with my one direct report and my first leadership position. And then I asked her to do something and she basically said no. And I didn't know what to do because I'd made the mistake of making her my friend. And so the

boundaries of the fact that I'm responsible for getting this work done and I need your help to get this work done became blurred and difficult to enforce. If a parent's not supposed to be friends with their kids or the friend, what is the analogy? What are they supposed to be? Like when you say they're supposed to be the parent, I get that. But what does that mean? Some parents over-index on friend. So they struggle to enforce rules or protocols or decorum or, you know, go down the list. Well, start with why.

I mean, like, what are your values as a family? Yeah. You know, even when parents don't think their kids are listening to them, they absolutely are, especially when it comes to the values. Yeah. I've heard my kids say so many times, like, I just don't do things like that. Like, I just don't treat people like that. Like I just don't treat people like that. Or here's a perfect example.

Like you're in a grocery line and the cashier gives you $20 too much back. And you see it and you notice it. And my kids will be like, you give it back because that's going to come back on that person who's probably making minimum wage. Like we don't do things like that. And so the first thing I would say to parents is like, make your values clear. That's good. Like being present and having real friendships and being connected and putting your own need to be on that phone second to the person who's in your presence. Like that's a value we have.

Yeah. And you could go right down the list. Not every family is going to have the same set of values, but be clear about them. One of the other things, and I don't know if you're seeing this trend among younger kids, but what I'm starting to see in young kids entering the workforce is that there's a lot of talk about boundaries and the expectation that work reflects their boundaries, you know, the boundaries that they've said of how they like to work, but they don't seem to obey other people's boundaries. Do you see that as well, which is a demand for respect for my boundaries, but I'm not even asking what your boundaries are?

There used to be an understanding that, you know, there are the needs of the individual and the needs of the community. And, you know, as you became an adult, you became aware of that. Like, I can't do whatever I want because there are other people relying on me or because there are rules, you know? And it was fascinating. I was sitting on a panel with someone who ran daycare, chained. And she was saying how attentive they were to the needs and emotions of the little kids. And she said, for example, if a four-year-old doesn't want to wash her hands after we come in from playing outside, we ask her, when do you think you'll be ready to wash your hands or when will you feel okay washing your hands? And of course, I'm sitting there like the old lady on

the panel and like steam is coming out of my ears. And I was like, wait a minute. Kids four. is coming out of my ears. And I was like, wait a minute. Kids four. The kids are four. And there's a reason we wash our hands. And there are other kids there.

Wash your hands. It's time to wash your hands. It's a directive. As a non-parent, I hear all the parenting tropes around me. And I keep hearing that kids need structure. So what is the downside? And I know this is the opposite. Right.

But A, why do kids need structure? And B, what's the downside of asking the kid if they want to sit down or wash their hands? What are the ripples that this kid will then suffer in later life as a result of, you know, who cares? Let them choose when they want to wash their hands or sit down and have lunch. My needs and feelings are always primary. My boundaries are primary. Work boundaries are not consequential. They don't matter as much as my needs and boundaries, which is what I think you were – So let me say it back so I know I'm clear, which is by giving young kids so many options at such an early age, they forget that there are other people in the world. They forget that – they don't get to decide everything all the time based on just them. Yeah. I mean sometimes things aren't a choice.

And what I find disingenuous about all the question asking is the parents don't actually mean it as a question. So it's confusing for kids. I see. And in some sense, by being black and white about what the rules are, they're learning the values. Yes. Thank you. the values. Yes.

Thank you. Because without being black and white, the values and norms of behavior and social behavior become very fuzzy. Yes. Which when you grow up and then enter life, you're going to have serious problems because you don't have choices. If there's a deadline to get some work done, you don't get to change the deadline because you just don't feel like working. Right.

Or you don't feel like coming to work. Like most things, it's complicated. There's always discernment. We believe that kids do need choices. But as adults, it's our job to discern what they can make choices about and what they can't make choices about. It's a human need to make choices, but it's also a human need to live in a safe, civil society. This conversation is causing me stress. I know, it's complicated. I think that's what you're touching on, which is the realization that you will learn this lesson the easy way or the hard way, that you live in the world with other people. And this is why this is stressful though. Why this is so stressful is because then it immediately leaks into conversations about mental health. That if somebody feels stress about something, that the boundary I'm putting up is to protect my mental health. And by you overstepping my boundary, you are now not considerate of my mental health. And these notions of what I prefer to call mental fitness, because mental

health sounds like a standard that if you don't reach there, you're somehow a failure, where mental fitness is something you should always be working on. But now these things are becoming blurred because there are boundaries that involve someone's mental fitness and someone's mental health. And there are real cases of social anxieties, but not all discomfort is a social anxiety or a mental health issue. And sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do. And sometimes we have to do things that are uncomfortable. And sometimes we have to like, oh, I don't really want to do this, but I have to do this. And then there are actually genuine times where you are mentally depleted and you can't.

And you do get to raise your hand and say, I need help. I can't do this. And you do get to raise your hand and say, I need help. I can't do this. But those boundaries, ironically, have been so blurred that I don't know anymore. And parents and teachers and companies are so afraid to offer anything other than just like that parent saying, is it okay if you come to work today? Are you comfortable coming to work today? Are you okay? Like that now, the way you're describing the way parents talk to a four-year-old has now almost become somewhat normalized in the workforce. Not because we agree with it. It's because everybody's so scared of doing the wrong thing and hurting somebody who's actually struggling. Right. We're creeping into Jonathan Haidt territory, right? And this is why I'm so stressed because I don't know. Yeah.

I'm not stressed. I'm not stressed because, again, it comes to discernment. Who are the adults in the room? Can I say a bad word? You can say many bad words. I call bullshit on a lot of this stuff because I think sometimes some of this gets weaponized. And so absolutely. Do we have kids and teachers who may be suffering mentally and emotionally that we need to support?

Yes. But it can very easily get weaponized. As you're saying, there's this concept or scope creep around what safety is. And it's hard for me. I mean, again, the overlaps are thick. You know, I talk about the paradox of being human, which is every moment of every day, we are both individuals and members of groups. You are you, but you are also a member of a team, a school, a community, a church, a

neighborhood, a family, a friend group. And there's the debate, do I put myself first at the expense of the group or do I put the group first at the expense of me? And there's a whole school of thought that believes one and a whole school of thought that believes the other. And the answer is you're both right and you're both wrong. It is a paradox, which is you have to manage both simultaneously and it is complicated. And sometimes we err too far one way and sometimes we err too far the other way. But it is something we manage our whole lives.

And I think the pendulum has seemed to have swung towards one side, which is you put yourself first at the expense of the group. But then what ends up happening is the group suffers. And we see that. We see fractured community and we see that we can't get along even though we disagree. Civil discourse, to your point, is part of putting community first and sometimes putting myself second. Letting someone speak, giving someone a safe space to feel heard, even though I vehemently disagree with them. But, you know, I'm old enough to know that things are cyclical. And I think this younger generation is sort of looking at those who – the generation that directly precedes them and feeling like I don't want to be like that. So I guess what will this young generation, especially your 17- and 18-year-olds, what are they rebelling against their parents?

Like, what do they see that their parents are doing that they are actively – you can see it and it will go even worse or more in college. Like, what are they rebelling against? Where are they the opposite of their parents? Consumerism. They see the rampant consumerism as one of the chief reasons for destruction of the climate. They are angry that their parents have not done enough to put responsible people in government so that there is essentially no control on gun ownership or gun violence in this country. I mean, like I said at the beginning, they're angry.

And they feel that their parents have been so busy earning money and spending money that they haven't tended their communities and their governments. And, you know, they're just fed up. What have you learned from your kids that makes you different than your friends? Like your friends have learned their lessons from each other, but you have access to these whole school of wonderful human beings every day who are different. So what about you is different because of your kids, because of your students? Oh my, I'm hopeful. I'm more hopeful than I think a lot of my friends who don't

hear kids talking in a real context, in a very authentic situation. I'm more hopeful because the kids haven't given up. They can't. I think a lot of the existential stuff we see, the anxiety, the depression, is that the kids can't see past all of these huge, burdensome problems in our world. And that's what depression is. It's the absence of hope. But what I see more and more, by and large, are kids voicing their hope and determination and then getting involved to change things. Can the things that you're teaching, all those human skills, will they work in a school with girls and boys?

I think so. Are you kind of cheating a little bit because you have all girls? It's definitely easier. I think it's easier. Not because boys are a problem. By the way, I'm very concerned about boys, and we can do a whole podcast on that. Yeah.

But I think it's simply that the girls are not distracted by, worried about sort of the male gaze that is so pervasive for all women all the time that they can just be comfortable in their own skin and have real conversations and devote their time and energy to other more important things. Tell me, what's your fear for boys? First of all, developmentally, boys are on a different trajectory than girls. Yes, their brains are different. And I may be controversial for saying that, but girls multitask better. They read sooner. They're more compliant, whether that's socially or innately, it doesn't really matter. And I think that girls get rewarded for their behavior in school, their compliance, their socialized to be perfectionistic. So while a boy will figure out the exact least amount of work to do to get the best possible outcome, which by the way, as Lisa

DeMoor says, is a great skill. I say this to the girls all the time. That's a skill you want. There is no point to your revising that essay four times or color coding your notes from today. You could be doing other things. You could be listening to music or practicing your guitar or talking to a friend on the phone. But instead, boys get punished for that because girls are socialized to be perfectionistic and they're leaving boys in the dust. And I also think that, you know, obviously I am very much about empowering girls. But as I say to students all the time, you don't diminish one group in order to elevate another. Right. Scott Galloway actually talks about this. He says the single most dangerous person on this planet is a lonely male. Yeah. A hundred percent.

And if you look at almost all of the horrible crime that we see perpetrated, it's almost always a relatively young, lonely male. And the vilification of boys. And there's this moral equivalency that starts happening when you say you can't vilify boys. And they say, well, men have been, the patriarchy has been suppressing women for generations. So now they know what it feels like. I'm like, it's not a moral equivalency. Like we're not condoning the past. Correct. By recognizing the imbalances of the present.

Correct. And I think to separate those two is for some reason, I don't know, become difficult. some reason, I don't know, become difficult. And moral equivalencies have become a standard to justify abhorrent views or abhorrent behaviors. Absolutely. And in particular now, you know, the Me Too movement is right and good because it struck at the heart of absolutely, at the lowest level, unethical and abhorrent, at the worst level, illegal behaviors. But all men are not those men. And even if all men do stupid things, all people do stupid things. All people do stupid things.

And say stupid things and we accidentally make each other uncomfortable on dates. It's happened and will continue to happen for the rest of time. And I think it's very interesting and difficult, as you said. And I'm very curious how schools are managing that. Yeah, helping one group be seen does not mean making the other group unseen. I will say the fact that your students are having an effect on you, that you are more hopeful and optimistic about the future. You know, I am more hopeful and optimistic about the future when I talk to you. Good. when I talk to you. For what it's worth, your students are having an outsized impact on the world. There are heads of schools, principals who get together and have their own industry associations. How many schools are embracing some of the techniques? And I'm going to give one example that I know about, which is when COVID struck, a lot of schools simply did school online. So, you know, if you had 50 minute classes and you had seven of those in a row, they just turned on zoom and had seven in a row, 50 minute classes,

and they never changed anything. And when we went into lockdown, one of the things I know about Archer is you reinvented school so that it would be conducive to online learning. I don't know all the details, but I know you shortened classes something like 20 minutes. And then you had like learning pods where the students would get together. You reinvented school completely for this new medium. And I'm so curious why other schools didn't. That they thought they could just do school but online. That never occurred to them that an eight-year-old, that is an untenable situation.

You know, one thing I say to my faculty every year is you got to take the Hippocratic Oath annually. Oh, that's good. Do no harm. Where did the idea come from that, okay, we're going to lockdown. We have to reinvent how school works. Yeah, because it's the way we do business generally. If something's not working and we're constantly, like the kids tell us, parents will tell us. And if there's a pattern, we pay attention to the pattern.

I don't know why schools are so defensive. We just are not a defensive school. So we knew our kids were suffering. We could see it with our eyes. They were telling us, parents were telling us. And we saw grades go down. I mean, we just- Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, and adults were suffering. Yeah. You know, it didn't take a genius. You know, the kids are- And the teachers themselves. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't know.

We've just always rolled that way. If something's not right or good or it's causing harm, let's do it differently. I don't know. Strong opinions loosely held. There's an absence of fear in our school and probably for me. I'm not afraid that things aren't going to be okay. Does that make sense? Like if they aren't, okay, then we'll do it differently. And I have a really awesome team. We have very broadly distributed leadership. So there's no teacher in the school who wouldn't walk into

my office and say, hey, I was thinking. It's not high stakes that way. So what if we make a mistake? So what if this doesn't go well? Or if we're hearing it's bad, we just change it. It must be very enlightening for kids to see their school willing to change and their head of school willing to listen to their complaints. And then a month or two later, they would see change in the school based on their voice, their collective voice. Yeah. And it's funny. They don't abuse it. Sometimes I wish they would. Sometimes I say to them, like, you guys are so respectful all the time. Like, I sometimes expect you to do things that are more, you know, rebellious.

It is curious. And I don't know, maybe it's that they're girls, but I think they feel respected. I feel we take some of the desire to lash out away from them by being consultative and— Well, they feel like they have a voice. They do. Lashing out usually happens when I feel unheard. Yeah, correct. You don't have to take a large group of school.

You can just take an interpersonal relationship, a friendship or a romantic relationship that if I feel unheard, I'm going to be very difficult the next couple of days. Yeah, exactly. Our online newspaper I think is a really good example. There are very few schools in this country that have a free press, a free – truly free student press. No teacher oversight. There is an advisor. Right. But there's no prior review, no prior restraint.

There is a student editor, an editorial board. And they write what they write. They write what they write. I have never, ever once said no comment. I will always, you know. But the reason I feel good about that is that they are taught journalistic principles, ethics. They know how to conduct themselves as journalists. So you wouldn't just have a free press without giving them the skills.

You wouldn't just tell them self-regulate without giving them the skills. You wouldn't just say civil discourse without showing them what does that look like. How do you do that? That's a very important insight, which is we're all yelling at each other in schools, parents to schools, parents to teachers, politics, whatever it is. We're all yelling at each other to get something right. And nobody stopped and thought, hold on. Even in interpersonal relationships, I'm demanding that you be a better listener. But do you even have the skills on how to, but do you even have the skills on how to

listen? Do you, you know, you, do you even have the skills on how to hold space? And I mean, I don't know if you know this, but I started the optimism company with a single purpose, which is to teach human skills. I won't call them soft skills because there's nothing soft about them, not to mention hard and softer opposites. And, you know, my, my little joke is, you know, a cat doesn't have to work very hard to be a cat. They're just naturally good at being cats. But it's really hard to be human. And we actually have to study and learn to be good humans.

It actually isn't natural. And it's difficult and complex because we are burdened with rational, conscious brains that make life a lot more difficult. Good human beings, like good leaders, study being human like you study being a leader. All the best leaders I've ever met are all students of leadership. Even some of the most remarkable people I've ever met, all they want to do is talk about leadership. They love the subject.

Yes, and... Well played, well played. Did you hear that? Yes, and. Very good technique. We teach that at Archer. We do. To the point where we make fun of it, as you just did. I get so excited when I meet someone that I want to be like, still at the age of 58. I meet people and I think, oh, I just want to emulate that because they were so thoughtful or so gracious or so humble.

Yeah. That's why I think traveling is so important because there are cultures where those are sort of revered qualities. have fallen away a little bit here in particular because we so prize the individual and have so elevated the place of the emotional life. Yeah. I think it's the mistake that America has made over the past 40 years, 40 plus years. We've over-indexed on rugged individualism. For sure. And we have forgotten that we live in community, we live with other people. And I think people often confuse offering someone safe space to feel heard doesn't mean you agree or condone. It simply means you allow them to feel heard. And that is determined by the person speaking, not by the person listening. Correct. That's the rub. Last question for you. Can you tell me something you've been involved in

as a head of school, a project, a time, doesn't matter specifically, but something you were involved in that you absolutely loved being a part of it, a specific project or something, that if everything were like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive? That's a big question. I'm sure I'm going to answer it and then leave here and say, why the hell didn't I say something else? Well, last year we had the experience of working with a large group of teachers to come up with sort of a pay transparency like bonus schedule for educators. schedule for educators. And I've always been told that you could never have a bonus structure in a school because it hurts feelings and the work of teaching is too hard to measure or evaluate, which I don't agree with, by the way. And then California came out with a bill that said, you essentially have to make your pay scale public, which is something this generation wants anyway. Again, a generational thing, fine. So we had a task force with our

faculty and we said, how do we do this? And the first thing we did was we brought everybody up to the 75th percentile of secondary schools, independent secondary schools in Southern California. So many people in our school got a significant raise. We're a young school. We don't have a big endowment. It felt good for us to make that a budgetary priority and then said beyond that, we're going to have these three tiers of teaching expertise. At each stage, you demonstrate your mastery of certain skills in the classroom, commitment to the community, et cetera, and you will receive a $5,000, $15,000, or $25,000 bonus.

A lot of people said, you can't do this in a school, too many hurt feelings. Our teachers are very, very happy about this. They want the recognition. They want things to be different somehow. And us as leaderships trying to figure it out over here, how do we placate or how do we solve for this? We said, okay, let's sit down and let's figure this out. We're right. What you do is so highly valuable. I went to the board. I said, this has to be our number one priority over the next decade. There is a shortage of teachers. And by the way, morally, it's the right thing to do. They're working with our future. And I'm just really, really pleased with the process, with how we did it so collaboratively, with how we kept the rest of the faculty informed and did focus groups and got feedback. I'm very proud of it. And I think

we're one of the few independent schools that has been bold enough to do something like this. With all the amazing things you've done in your career and the experiments you've taken, undertaken in education, what is it about that specific example that you want to talk about it right now? Well, I think just in,

it relates to leadership generally, which is that I think so often leaders feel – and being a leader is so stressful and so hard because people project so much of their dissatisfaction with their lives onto the person they report to every day. I think I just – and I try to do this with parents and kids is hear their complaints as a desire for something to get better. And they're not wrong. And I think that sometimes you just have to like gut check. Teachers don't make enough money.

That is truth. And I'm part of that system. And I'm part of that truth. So what am I going to do? How am I going to help? Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory. Oh my goodness. I just was outside all the time as a kid.

So tell me a specific memory. A specific memory. Something I can relive with you like it's a movie. Oh my God. Okay. Blizzard of 77. Go on. Yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah. It snows like six feet of snow, snow banks on every corner. School's canceled for a week. I'm towing my dog sniffles around on the sled down to the corner store to get milk and bread. My friends and I are digging out a fort on the corner of Rice Road and Wayland Hills Road. And we're just sitting in that fort all day long and there is nothing happening. It's silent. There are no cars. And we're just living our best lives in a snowbank.

And of all the amazing things that happened in your childhood, what is it about that memory that you love that brings such joy to you to talk about it? Oh, God. It's just so New England. I know the peace and quiet, how everything stood still, the fact that we were completely free as children and nobody's worried about where we are. We're at the bottom of a snow cave, dead or alive. We're just in there being kids. And it was so magical. Everything's white. Everything's quiet.

Beautiful. so magical. Everything's white. Everything's quiet. Beautiful. What I find interesting about those stories and even some of the stories you've told about Archer is there's a lot of self-reliance. There's a lot of, you said, everything shut down and you took the sled and you went to get milk. And you talk about with the teachers, it's like, well, yep, something bad happened. Like, you're right. This is, you know, you're underpaid. We've got to fix that. All right. You take control. You get the sled and get the milk and take your dog and build a fort in the snowbank. You do it. And the way you approach your leadership and the way you talk about your students in your school, which is you're totally open to complaints.

But unlike many leaders who then go and hurry away and come up with a plan and then present it to the people who have lodged the complaint and like, is this okay? You know, run away again. Like, is this better? You say, totally agree. What are you going to do? Like, what do you propose? I'm open. And I think the open-mindedness to sort of build your own fort, the open-mindedness to sort of like when something happens that's unexpected or expected, that you push the accountability and responsibility on those who want the change, and then you foster the environment for that. I think most really great leaders are fundamentally unafraid.

And I don't like the definition of courage that says courage isn't the absence of fear. Yes, it is. I'm not afraid. I am aware of danger, but there's really nothing you can do to make me afraid. I think I just, I've been through a lot in my life and it's all going to be okay as long as you have people around you. That's it. That's it. What you just said, that sums up everything. It's all going to be okay. Whether it's the snowstorm

or whether it's a political upheaval in the country, it's this undying that it's all going to be okay. If Elizabeth English had a tagline, Elizabeth English, it's all going to be okay. You know, that's what it is. Thank you.

That sums you up. Thank you for that. Okay, I'll take it. Thank you so much for coming's what it is. Thank you. That sums you up. Thank you for that. Okay, I'll take it. Thank you so much for coming. This is magical. Thank you. What a pleasure. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more,

please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenic.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.