A Bit of Optimism - The Power of Doing One Thing Exceptionally Well with Gymshark Founder and CEO Ben Francis

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

We’re often told to do more, move faster, and chase the next big trend—but some of the most remarkable successes come from narrowing your focus, obsessing over one thing, and truly understanding the people you’re serving. Ben Francis knows this better than most.He started Gymshark with nothing more than a sewing machine and a passion for making gym clothes that actually worked for him. From those humble beginnings, he built a billion-dollar brand—carefully, sustainably, and with a vision for a company that lasts 100 years, not just a flash in the pan. And yes, he’s still young, proving that you can dream big while thinking long term.Recorded at the very impressive Gymshark HQ in Birmingham, UK, this episode takes us inside the energy and culture that fuel the brand. We dive into Ben’s journey of obsession, experimentation, and relentless focus, exploring how to build something meaningful without having all the answers, learning from failures, and why understanding your customer is everything. If you’ve ever wanted to create something that lasts, this conversation is for you.This is A Bit of Optimism. Check out Gymshark here: https://www.gymshark.com/

I don't think I'm your core JimShark customer, but I'm absolutely in love with your company because I preach these models of infinite-mindedness and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form is very rare. I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now.

Everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time. I am an idealist. The things that I write about, the things that I speak about are about an ideal version of the way the world and business could work. But every now and then, every now and then, I get to meet a company that, well, it's hard for me to be accused

of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. People are always asking me what businesses really exemplify the things that I write about? Well, one of them is Jim Shark. Jim Shark makes one thing for one audience. They make amazing gymware for people who go to the gym. We do gym, as they say. And Ben Francis is one of the most remarkable young leaders I've ever met. He's the founder and CEO of Jim Shark, and he's only 33 years old,

and in 13 years he has built an iconic global brand. And how has he done it? By keeping it absolutely pure and wanting to build a company that can outlast him, in fact, one that can last a hundred years. And given how so many young entrepreneurs start their businesses and try to build their businesses, waiting for the IPO, waiting for the exit, trying to have a liquidity event, Ben is the complete opposite. He is driven by the purest form of entrepreneurship to make great products for one community as best as he can. And the result is profound.

This is a bit of optimism. I'm a huge fan of yours. We've only met once before. I knew about you and I knew about Jim Shark. We met last year for the first time just because I wanted to meet you. You are what is, I think, the purest form of what an entrepreneur is, an entrepreneur should be. Thank you. And you've built a company that has that same purity. Jim Shark was born in a gym. you made the product yourself, which is like this quintessential entrepreneurial story. Other people wanted the stuff that you were making for yourself,

and before you know, you're selling more than you can sew yourself, and thus is born Jim Shark. How are you able to maintain, sort of, if we use the word purity, you're now a huge company. You're a global company. I'm at your headquarters here. There's three buildings, worth of offices. You know, how are you able to make it still,

stay so focused and not be tempted to go do everything else. Oh, well, we're definitely tempted. And we have been over the years. Thank you, by the way. I think that was really kind of you to say. But I think the business is, we're 12, 13 years old now. And there's been so many different versions of our business since Jim Sharp first started. It's difficult at times to recognize what is a temptation and what is a really viable and valuable

opportunity because the business has changed so much since it first started so if I think back to 2012-2013 Jim shark only sold supplements we didn't even sell apparel and then we it was only through running the business we sort of fell in love with making apparel to your point literally for ourselves because we couldn't find the clothes that we wanted to wear and then that naturally then removed we would then remove supplements because it was it that then became a distraction Particularly over the last sort of year, I think we've really hit our stride in knowing what is and isn't gym sharp for us. And this is more of a medium to larger business problem. I don't think this is a problem that maybe too many startups would have.

But it was really about defining what is Jim Shark. And that's where the We Do Gym campaign sort of started. It was about making sure that we're laser focused on what really makes us special. And again, that sort of We Do gym campaign, that all came from our, desire and ambition to be what we talk a lot internally about being a hundred year brand. We want to be a brand that lasts longer than myself or anyone here at this business. That's the real ambition. And I admire a lot of brands that really do stand the test of time.

So if we look at it from a top line perspective, if we want to build a brand that will stand the test of time, to do that, we have to be really good at one thing. And we're really focused on the gym. We're laser focused on the gym in a way that almost no one else is in the world. that's what makes it special that's what we're going to focus on and that's what we're going to make sure we're the best in the world

So all of your stuff is made for proper use in the gym and you may want to wear it for fashion but that's up to you where I think a lot of brands are the other, the opposite which is look how fashionable and beautiful our stuff is

and it may or may not actually work in the gym I'm thinking about some of your or sportswear focus so I'm a massive admirer of some of the really big sportswear brands and they were very much around sports even if we look at night Nike, for example, Nike started with a running shoe.

And then obviously then it's heavily a sports-focused brand to me. And yeah, people wear it outside of sports, for fashion and so on. But it is a sportswear brand, and so are many of the other big brands. Whereas we've said that we're not going to get into sports. Sport, competitive sport, team sport isn't a gym chart thing. The gym is the gym chart thing. And it's interesting because the gym in many ways is a solitary pursuit, but it's also aided by a broader community.

And I think that's what we've really noticed. And I noticed, again, I first went to the gym when I was about 16. And it was so intimidating to me. Because I walked into this gym and there was all these weights. And I didn't really know how to use the machines. I didn't know what I was doing. I went in, I was trying to do things. And I thought everyone was looking at me because I was doing it all wrong.

In reality, everyone was sort of more worried about themselves. And they were about me. And everyone was probably in their own heads as well. And then I actually went online. I was on bodybuilding forums and things like that, YouTube, to learn exercises and to find people that. that were basically going through the same thing as me. And again, that's where Jim Sharp was born out

of building the apparel that no one else was making, but then also trying to offer that community to kids very much like myself at the time that were getting into the gym. How long in before you started thinking, I probably need some sort of vision, I probably need some sort of strategy, like these words that, you know,

get thrown about in the entrepreneur world, I think a lot of people don't realize that it's not really how it happens. At minimum five years. Yeah. So if I think back to how Jim Shark first started, so before Jim Shark, so I loved making this.

things, websites, iPhone apps, things like that. And I actually had, I think I had about six or seven that I'd started prior that had failed, that just, I'd tried and it just hadn't quite worked. Jim Shark, when it first started, was I had an ambition to build a website that would sell things and transact. Nothing else at that point had ever sold anything. It was a forum or a, it was a mini sort of social network. It was an iPhone app. And they didn't really make money. And the whole idea was they would through, through ads. They were all free and they would make money through ads. So I thought, I'd love to sell something. And the Jim Shark website was a website that sold things. At the time, we found Shopify and that just made life 10 times easier than what it was prior.

So the ambition was actually incredibly low. The ambition was to make a website that would sell things. And then once we'd done that, again, which was actually relatively easy, then it was let's sell something on the website. And then I sort of thought at the time, I think, Instead of selling other people's things, sell our own things. Well, no, just sell something. Because just because I thought that once we've made a website, it's almost like having a shop on the high street. People would just find their way there and someone would buy something,

and no one did for months. There was not enough stuff on the website. So it was supposed to sell supplements. And there was a friend of mine that worked, not far from here. And he worked as a salesperson in a supplement brand. And I called him up and I said, I said, Dan, can you get some supplements to sell on this website? And he went away and he said, yeah, I'll get you a deal. I'll get you a deal on mate's rate sort of thing.

And he rang me back and he said, right, I've got you a deal. I can get you some supplements. You can put these on your website and sell them. But the minimum buy is $8,000. Now, I'd never heard of $8,000, let alone seeing $8,000. Right, I was a pizza, £4,000, something can hour at the time. And I loved the job, by the way, but I wasn't going to get that sort of money to get there. And I thought, oh, God.

So this whole idea of selling things online's great until you need products, until you need inventory. Anyway, with that problem, I then happened to fall upon a concept online called drop ship. him and then that was great that was music to my ears because I thought wow this website that's going to sell things I can now sell things without having to buy those things in the first place so I basically had hundreds of supplements on the website and they would drop ship from another website now the margin was really low but at that point the ambition wasn't it wasn't to make money necessarily it was to sell something I think it took a few months and eventually we sold something and I remember it to this day it was a five kilogram five kilogram tub of USN hyperbolic mass

so one bought it and it was 52 pounds and of the 52 pounds two pounds was profit and it took two or three months to get to that point so it took two or three making a pound a month in profit from that one order right but it didn't matter to me because at that point the ambition you're still working your pizza job yeah yeah exactly yeah actually I was for a long time after that but I think the ambition was literally to sell something and I think there's there's a lot to be said when starting a business going back to your original point not to have these massive ambitions to build a hundred year brand. I think there's a lot to be said about having incredibly low ambitions, set the bar so incredibly low and just incrementally build that thing. Because then that sale, I remember being at my mom and dad's in my bedroom, dancing around the room, and I was so happy. And a lot of people that sell things online

will never, ever forget that first sale, that first moment. And a lot of people that sell in markets or at shops, they'll all have that same feeling. And I'll never, ever, ever forget it. And then that's where that sort of momentum, that excitement builds and then it's let's try and sell we've gone from one sale let's try and sell one thing a month let's try and sell two things a month let's try and sell two things a month let's try and sell something every week every day let's try and build product that's to a margin that would

allow us to run a sustainable business and then it just grows and grows and grows and goes from there so we didn't start the business with the ambition to build a hundred-year brand we didn't have a vision or anything like that we hadn't set out our values a lot of the things that a lot of big businesses really need, I think, to, you know, manage themselves particularly directionally and, you know, we just started a business to sell things and then to sell more things and just slowly build that business. And then it, we then just started getting regular sales and it was really obvious to me because of the low margins in drop shipping that it just, that just wasn't a viable business. And my nan was actually doing a curtain making course at the

time and she had a sewing machine on a dining room table. And it was seeing that that made me, me think, well, maybe we could make clothes and we could make our own clothes. And then we literally just started making clothes for ourselves and our friends, put them online, and that's where it all started. It goes back to purity, which is, I think the model for a lot of young entrepreneurs are, you know, the unicorns. The definitions change slightly, but, you know, it used to be a company that achieves a billion dollars in revenues. I think it's market cap, which is a lower standard. And there's only, if you go by revenues, you know, for a new business to achieve a billion

dollars in sales, it's a very small number. It's a very, very small number, which is why they're called unicorns, out of the millions and millions and tens of millions of businesses that exist. And I think a lot of young entrepreneurs, you know, they look to Silicon Valley as their model, and they look, and they, you know, the ambition is the IPO and the ambition is wealth. And so it's very rare to hear a CEO, to hear a founder say, I want to build a hundred-year business. When did that idea come and why did that idea come?

Like why build a hundred-year business? Why not build, you know, 20 years? Why not just, you know, Steve Jobs even said, like, when I leave, if Apple collapses, who cares? You know? Yeah, I think, I don't know. Those weren't his exact words, but. I don't know where the idea came from.

I think it's a lot, lots of different things. I think I've always been, the thing that really, I really enjoy is obviously speaking to customers, building a great brand and really focusing on the product. I just, I just love those three things. And if you said to me, what is your perfect week? It would be that.

It would be a Jim Shark event with the community, with the athletes, talking about the product. You know, it would be that sort of thing. I also think maybe it's, as the businesses continue to grow, you look around and you think what you know what are we trying to achieve here what are we what are we trying to build and I think I also look back to probably the first job I ever did so when I was a teenager I did work experience with my granddad and we I worked with him a fair bit we would go around the Midlands where we are today and we would line furnaces so we'd line furnaces with brick with ceramic fiber and you know there were long days but in those long days you would end up just just talking and you know I learned so much from him I learned all about you know taking risks taking business risks from him he was a he's a one man band he still works today

so I think I learned a lot from him and he taught me a lot about being really grateful to have work you know I think a lot of people certainly around here you know what don't always have work so I think being in a job that I really love and having so much to do I think is an absolute blessing and I feel so fortunate to be in this position

so I think there's a bit of that I think as well I sort of looked at what we're building and I sort of recognise that it is quite unique. We're so branding a community focus. There aren't that many businesses that have the opportunity that we now have. So I think it's a bit of that. But I'm not really sure. But the one thing I have known, sort of as this 100 year brand vision has sort of come to fruition in my mind over the last few years, that it's definitely changed the way that I think about things quite a lot. It's changed the way that we think about our brand, the way that we think

about our product development, even the way that we think about hiring. And again, I don't know exactly where it came from. I think it's just, I know I've been inspired by lots of businesses local to hear. So if you think within just a few miles of where we are now, you've got Jaguar Land Rover down the road. Land Rover is an incredible brand. It's a brand that I've been around literally my entire life. I love Land Rovers. I love the authenticity of their products and I love that they build the best off-roaders. I love the fact that they build the best off-roaders since the 1940s when they were founded still to today. I think that's really inspiring. You've got Cabri in Bourneville as well, which is a chocolate brand.

out of the UK. And I think seeing those brands that have really stood the test of time is really, really cool to me. So I think it's a combination of lots of things. It's lots of things of being really happy in the job I do and loving it, the opportunity of the brand that we've got, and then being inspired by, being inspired by other people that have done a similar thing. Hold on, let me go down that rabbit hole a little bit. Again, I'm going to back to sort of what entrepreneurs, young entrepreneurs, sort of what their models are. And they're looking at the companies that had the exit. They're looking at the company that went public. They look at the company that, you know, that's their model.

And you're talking about the companies you admire, you know, Cadbury's is what, 100 years old or plus, you know, it's a very old company. And they're still making chocolate, you know, that's still their thing. And Land Rover, that iconic Land Rover, you know, yes, they've done things on the side here and there for different markets, but they've always had that core, you know, that four by four is their bread and butter. And they've never veered from it. And as you said, it's like we do one thing, we do one thing,

really, really well and we can do stuff on the sides, but we'll never abandon this. But how did you come to it? Is it just because you grew up in Birmingham? No. Like, how did you come to use as your model for the kind of company that you wanna build, these iconic brands, but they're not just iconic,

they're old? Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a combination. I think, again, the more I thought about it, even just selfishly in terms of me, I love the job that I do, and this is all I wanna do. I don't want to, I've got no ambitions to be doing anything else.

And if I wasn't doing this, I would, I would be basically doing something that's very similar to this. I saw a, I saw a video of Mark Zuckerberg the other week and someone asked him, I think it's quite an old video. Someone asked him, you know, you get loads of money for it. You just sell it, you can go and do something else. And I think his response was, he said that he did a lot of thinking about it. And he came to the conclusion that if he did sell it, he would just use the money to start something that looks a lot like what he was doing then. or a lot like Facebook. And I sort of feel like I'm in a similar position.

But I also think there's a level of, if you're building for the long term, or sorry, if you're building anything in general, there's a level of separation that you have to have between your personal ambitions and your ambitions for your business. I think that's two slightly different things. Same more. So when, and this, I learned this years ago in my early 20s,

the business started to grow really quickly. And I very quickly realized that, I wasn't the right person to be the CEO and run the business for that period, for that specific period of growth. So brought in a CEO called Steve, who did a really, really good job. And that was really great for me, because he would do the CEO job. And I could then go in and spend so much time on brand, on product. I was traveling the world, going to events around the world, spending time in the gyms with the consumer, building product in the factories, working with athletes, brand teams and marketing teams. And I could do all the bits that I was really good at. But then

And I could also learn operations and finance and supply chain and bits that maybe wasn't quite as exciting to me, knowing that I sort of always had that safety blanket or that sort of cover with having a CEO that could then help fix any of the problems that I had sort of thing. And I always, I liken it to, I could go into the finance department and I could make a thousand mistakes and know that between the CFO and Steve as the CEO, they would sort of fix those mistakes. But that meant that I had a period of rapid learning.

And it's almost like being able to do, if I said, Simon, you do this exam, and you did it and you got 50%. And then a week later, I said, I'm going to give you the same exam, and you can do it again. Then the week later, you might get 60%, and then 70%, and you can just keep learning at a rate and have a better output, you know, just because you're doing it over and over again, and there's no consequence of failure with it within reason. Yeah, yeah. So that was important to me because then I quickly learned that even though I have ambition, you know, I'd love to run the company. Everyone wants to run their own company. I guess to a degree there's nothing worse

than not running your own company but I realized that because my ambitions for the business I wanted the business to succeed more than I wanted to be the CEO than that then pay back in dividends because the business grew far more quickly I could learn more quickly

I enjoyed my job Steve enjoyed his job and now I moved back into the CEO job three years ago I think it was four years ago and I feel so much more well equipped and the reason you came back is not because Steve was doing a bad job

the reason you came back is because you got the education you needed to have the job that you wanted but weren't prepared for it. Yeah, yeah. So it was that. I had learned on the job, which was great. Steve came to me and he was, his self-awareness was incredible. He said, I'm, you know, I don't want to run the business at the next scale or I don't feel like it's right for me to run the business at the scale that it is now. And he actually said to me, we were working away in Hong Kong. I remember he said to me, it's not right for me to run the business in the next phase. And I was like, God, so who's going to do it then? And then he said, he was like, I think you can do it.

And I thought, oh, God. And I don't think I really responded. I said, we flew home. I don't know how long the flight is, sort of eight or nine hours or whatever. And then I think it was the next day or two. I said, do you want, yeah, I'm going to do it. I feel, I don't necessarily feel ready, but I'm going to do it because, you know, it felt like the right time for me to do it.

So I think, again, having real bold ambitions for the business, but then also being really realistic about your own skill set, it's quite important to me. And then, I guess, through those years as CEO, I then was thinking what, I sort of, then I started to think more critically about what do I want this brand to be and where do I want it to go? And I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now. You know, everyone wants to be a cool dad, right?

And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time that the kids can look at and go, oh, well, you know, my dad built that or, you know, the JimShart team built that. And I think that to me, I don't know, I've just got a real admiration of brands that can really stand the test of time. There are so many brands that come out of nowhere and explode and then they disappear, but there are very few that really stand the test of time. And I'd love for Jim Shart to be one of the few that does stand the test.

I've met a lot of founder, CEOs who did have an exit and they've moved on. And sometimes they start something new, sometimes they don't. and their companies, whether they become public or whether they get bought by some private equity firm, some of these highly, highly ethical CEOs who built a company to have an impact in the world and B, build strong cultures that are great places to work. I bring them their companies in their current states and I say, look at what your company has become. It's doing unethical things.

It's not a great place to work. They've changed the ingredients of the products that they're not pure anymore. I thought you cared so much about impact and clarity and great place to work. This was your company. And they all are able to rationalize it away. Well, you know, it was good while it was and while I was there. But basically what they did is they took the money. Yeah.

You know? And again, there's a reason why you're one of my favorite CEOs. And I'm not a hardcore gym rat. Like, yeah, I go, but, you know, I'm not your, I don't think I'm your core Jim Shark customer, but I'm absolutely in love with your company because I preach these models of infinite-mindedness and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form is very rare. And the reason I want to have you on here and the reason I was so glad that you said yes is because

you're not an 80-year-old former CEO going, in my day, this is how we ran companies. You're a young CEO running a very, very popular company that is beloved by your employees and your, and your mentality of how to run that business and the way you're trying to build it are completely opposite than what is considered, I would say, normal standard. And I think that the reason I'm rooting for you so much is that, If you succeed and you share with people different ways to make decisions based on having this 100-year mentality, my hope is that your model of building a business becomes standard again, you know, where building these short-term companies where you're only driven by the quarter becomes something we read about in the history books or those become the minority. You know, you shouldn't be special. Because as you said, Cadbury's and Land Rover and some of these iconic brands, they've done something differently.

and something that's important and something worth protecting and holding on to. Decision making, you said before we turned on the cameras, you said, since I decided to build a hundred year company, it's changed the way I make decisions, it's changed the way I hire. Can you share more about what that lens has done for you and what kind of decisions you would have made that you're making differently now? I guess product would be the most obvious one. So, again, as you grow, it's so easy to get tempted to, and we did this for a bit, right? So we built, we broadened our product range massively. And the whole idea is the broader the product range, the more people that you can appeal to, and obviously the bigger you can build the business.

And what do you mean by broader products? So as an offer, we could offer sportswear and swimwear and hiking wear and all these different things and lots of different things that sort of come out and are closely associated to, but not quite the same as general. And people were asking for it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if we go on the website, there are lots of social. searches for a lot of these different things. But what we've since done is we've launched the, you know, our new sort of campaign,

which is we do gym. And we've said, we're just going to be the best at gym wear. And we're going to focus solely on building the best gym wear in the world, not by going into all of these different things. And I think going back to some of the big brands is they're really good at what they do. There's, you know, Nike are probably the best, well, they are the best sportswear brand in the world. And we're never, ever, ever going to outcompete them on that. And also, it's not my personal passion.

My personal passion always has been the gym since I was 16. I fell in love with the gym. And I fell in love with the gym because it was the first thing in my life where I directly got out of it what I put in. And I knew that if I went to school and I try really hard at certain subjects and I get terrible grades. I wouldn't try other subjects and I get good grades. And the whole input to output thing just didn't quite make sense to me until I was 16.

And I then realized if I go to the gym five days a week, if I'm on the treadmill or if I'm lifting weights, whatever it is, I will get out of that what I put in. It's a one-to-one ratio. That was really important for me as a moment. So I'm really passionate about the gym. We're really passionate about the gym. So we're going to focus on the gym.

That's it. That's where our consumer is. That's where our product should be designed around. That's our USP. That's our competitive advantage. And that's what we're really good at. Obviously, there's more to it, right? So when the brand was first started, we've grown up in the UK.

We would buy like T-shirts, Top Man 2 for 10. 10 pound t-shirts was just a thing so two t-shirts for 10-pound was amazing so affordability is really important for us because when you're joining the gym you don't want you spending loads of money on really expensive stuff right you want really good quality and you want it to perform but equally you don't want to have to pay loads of loads of money so affordability is really important for us we have to build affordable product for our consumer and it has to be the best gym wear in the world and if we do those three things everything else then tends to fall into place as long as we're thoughtful about so you were tempted to go in all

all these directions, swimmer, hiking, all of these things. So we said, no, we're just going to focus on. So, but you said, but you did try those things, right? Yeah. You did start expanding your product line. Yep. And then we ended up just basically having a longer tail, basically. So we had lots of products that would sort of sell less, basically.

So we was proportionately sold more. The business obviously continues to grow, but then rather than selling 50 of two products, we were selling, you know, 10 of 10 different products. We were selling a similar amount, but across lots of different things. Isn't that a good business? Isn't that what everybody, every company wants to sell more of everything? You know, traditional business would say, ah, that's sticky, because now our customer wants our hiking gear, and they want our swimming gear,

and they want our, you know, gym gear. Look, we're creating stickiness. I think the second, there's consequences, and to us, the consequences are the brand is watered down. And then also what you've got is you're splitting your sort of reason to believe for a product across lots of different things. It's interesting. We launched a product about a month ago, two months ago. It's what we call our Onyx product. It's the most extreme JimShart product that you can possibly sell. It's a thick, seamless product. It's all around bodybuilding. It's a men's product, all around accentuating your physique.

The audience size for that is one percent of that in hiking or in lots of different things. It was by far the biggest launch that we've ever done. We had over 400,000 people sat on the website waiting to buy. this product and you would look at it and you would think most people I know probably wouldn't wear this product but it's because we were speaking to our core core audience the lifter the bodybuilder that wants to really accentuate their physique wear the gym shot logo uh seamless tight-fitting product and it's an incredible product it's a brilliant product that we're so proud of but it is a very niche product and again what we found is we win or we do the best and we I guess build the most clarity with our customer is when we just focus on doing what we're really good at and

not trying to be similar to everyone else. So you did expand. You went to hiking and swimming and all that, but then you contracted. You closed all those down? Yeah, we said we're gonna do gym wear really well and then we basically narrowed the product range massively. And what is the benefit of selling 50 of 1 versus,

or 50 of 2 versus 10 of 10? So, well, what's the benefit? It's really focused on the gym, which is what we're gonna be. But I mean, you aside, like as a business concept. Oh, so well, you get far better economies to scale with suppliers, which means you get more purchase leverage you can obviously work more closely on the products so you've got you'll have a

higher quality of products I would say so you know you if you need ten developers to build ten products you need five to build five so it's that you then get far more economies of scale and efficiencies through the business and you've got your entire business focused on something that's really specific so it's not only you don't get you only get brand benefits you build a better product you have a more efficient and effective business and it's everyone's marched in the same direction this is genius Yes. Here's the analogy. It just occurred to me now because even me, like my knee-jerk reaction is if you can sell 10 of 10 and you can expand, my goodness, you can all these new customers. But the analogy is I hate restaurants that have very big menus because how can you make all of these dishes taste good? There's just no way. You have ingredients sitting in the fridge for too long. There's just no way, right? And the best restaurants in the world have quite small menus. You know, there's a very limited selection because they've

a limited amount of very high quality ingredients. And so this is what you're saying, which is this is your menu, it's a small menu, and that way I can absolutely guarantee that this would be the best food you've ever eaten, the best product you've ever had, because I am not distracted, and I don't have to try and sell,

because I've got excess, you know, merchandise sitting over there, I've got excess chicken that I gotta push the chicken before it goes off. It's exactly the same, it's a small menu. And I think, and then to your point then on that, if we've got a narrower product range that is really focused around gym,

it means we can better leverage our finite resources to be in the best in the world at that. But then I guess the second order consequences of that are looking to build a 100 year brand is then the people that are involved in Jim Shark are really focused on that. And then when you think about hiring, if you're hiring for a short-term goal,

if we're hiring just to get to X by three years, then you'll hire, I found that you're far more likely to hire externally, and you'll always then bias towards, have they done it before. I need someone that's done what I want to do before externally, hire them in. Can you do what you did there here? When I think about building a 100 year brand, I don't want people to come in, particularly into leadership or senior teams. I don't want people to come in for three years, do what they've done somewhere else to do it here. I want people to join for 10, 20, 30 years.

I want people to build a career here and to be really focused around the long term of the business and to really put the business first rather than just this be a stepping stone in their career. So, You've got product effects, you've got sort of hiring effects. And then if you think about our brand, the We Do Gym campaign is perfect. It's three words, but it says exactly what Jim Sharkey is. It's all about the gym. And then for us, then, it's not about we do gym, we do this, we do that. It's literally we do gym.

And we want to land that message as regularly as possible so that it's really clear as to what we are. But going back to the hiring practices, right? And again, you know, we're having a problem in X. I'm going to hire somebody who's done this before. I've made this mistake. I've hired somebody who's done it before. They come into our culture and I'm like, okay, you've done it, please do it. And it rarely works well because they try and force us to do things the way their old company did it, not, you know, or there's an insecurity, right?

Because their whole sense of self-worth is I have to repeat that. And their desire to push their boundaries, do things differently, challenge themselves, throw out the playbook, is dramatically reduced because they have to repeat their success. But their success is the past. There's a great story you might appreciate this. I got a tour of Apple, and the Apple historian took me around. And he was telling me, like, you know, they've hired some remarkable people. Like, this person invented this for Google, and this person invented that for Facebook, and now they all work at Apple.

And they walk around with these inflated egos and then sitting meetings and go, I don't think you know what I did at Google. And somebody invariably at Apple will lean forward and say, we don't care what you've done. We care what you're going to do. How do you hire young people where, you know, culturally, it's much more acceptable to bounce from job to job to job. Are you very clear that, you know, we want to hire somebody who wants to stay for a long time?

Do you, like, do your youngest employees find themselves working here for four, five, six, seven years? And they can't believe they've been here longer than any of their, have held the job longer than any of their friends. I think this is a transition that we've made in the last two years. So we're starting to move through that. And we're definitely seeing that. The other thing that we've noticed is we sort of in a way bringing more in-house than what a lot of other people would do as well. So I don't know if you saw over the road, we've got a full sampling facility and we've got great technical expertise here. Now a lot of other people would just outsource

all that and just give that to factories, but it's really important to us, whilst we work really closely with our partners, that a lot of the sampling, a lot of the development, a lot of a little bit of a mini factory across the street. But we want to own that internally. And again, if you were doing it purely on a short-term P&L, you wouldn't run that. Because that, if you took all that cost out, then obviously that would just increase profitability. But for us, the profitability that we have is there to be reinvested into the long-term future of the business. And it's really important for us to have genuine product developers and technical experts in-house rather than outsource that because that's our most powerful asset, right,

is our people, but our technical ability to build our product. And I don't want to be constantly outsourcing some of the most special things of our brand. You told me a lovely story about your grandfather that at the end of every year, he calls you up and asks you one question, did you make any money this year? Yeah. And all you have to do is say yes. Yeah, you would never ask how much.

Just say, did you make any money this year? Yep. Well done, lad. That's it. Clearly, you have financial goals. I mean, you're a sophisticated company. Yeah. If you've missed that financial goal,

but you're profitable, are you happy or are you angry? I think it depends. Again, in the last few years, because we've been changing our strategy in the way that we want to approach things. I think if we're moving in the right direction, which we absolutely are, then I'd be happy. I think it's really important to me to remember that forecasts are forecasts.

Forecasts are a, you know, it's a best guess at where you're going to be generally at the start of the financial year and we'll re-forecast as we go through the year. The important thing for me is did we stick to doing what we said we were going to do in the really important parts of our business that matter? So did we continue to nail that? We do gym campaign. Did we continue to really invest into our product in the right way? You know, is the shape of our business where we want it to be?

Have we had that really nice, incredible new product development, which we're really proud of? Those are the things that really matter. Now, what you can't do is then just completely alienate yourself from all financial results because that would not build a 100-year long-term sustainable business. I think by definition to be a long-term 100-year business, you have to be profitable because profitability allows you to invest in the long-term

of the business, but it also insulates you from all of the inevitable macroeconomic surprises that will come up. But in that infinite-minded 100-year mindset and based on the advice or the question from your grandfather, so long as you're building the business the way you want to build it, so long as you're following your values, you're sticking to your core, so long as that purity remains, if you miss that projection, but everything's going in the right direction, you're not angry, you're fine. As long as we can continue to fund our own growth, build the business yeah I wouldn't so if the profit ability so when your granddad says did you make money and you say yes yeah to some degree you are okay with that I'm happy yeah the going back to

there's a I don't want to call it an irreverance because I don't think it is irreverent there's an honesty that I see on the walls here I mean I always think a lot of companies waste space in their offices because they have all this magical space and they don't use they don't remind everybody why they're here. There are words all over your office that remind people why they're here, both your values and just these nice sort of reminders. But they're not sweet, you know, they're reminding people take care of the people in the gym. You know, one of them says give a shit. It's one of your values. It's just very honest and it's written. It's no asterisks. It says, give a shit on the wall. In fact, right behind us, I love this one. Right behind us, you can't see it. It says on the wall,

It's the only thing written on the wall in big letters is don't be a dickhead. And it's reminding everybody, like, this is how you show up at work. I mean, this is their office, and it says, don't be a dickhead. Like, where does that come from? Because a lot of people, I think, they say those words, but they would never write them on the wall.

Yeah, there's a few things. So there's four things that we sort of build ourselves around when it comes to our values and the way that we work. One is hard work. And again, going back to... To the gym. Yeah. going back to the gym, going back to what it's like building a business, where it's incredibly

hard work. And to build a business in the way that we want to, it is hard work. I think it's important to recognise that. One team, again, go back to what you said in terms of what it says on the wall, one team is really, really important. That's not your function. That's not your department. That's the entire business. We've got community first as well. Everything that we do is all around serving our community. That's the most important thing. The reason that we build product, the reason that we build events, the reason that we build the brand is to serve the customer and the community in the same way that I was, you know, when I was a kid and I first joined the gym, that's what gym chart is there for. And then humility as well.

Humility is really, really important because I think humility then allows us to be always learning. And again, us getting to where we are today has been because of so many failures and things that, you know, we haven't always been focused on building a hundred year brand, whereas now we really are. And I think it takes that humility to recognize. when you're not going in the right direction in order to get yourself in a lot of life. Can you tell me a specific story where when you look back now, you're like, we, I don't know what I was thinking, and I would never make that decision now? And are you able to look back and say, here's why I made that incredibly bad decision?

Oh God, yeah, loads. Give me one specific one that if you look back now, it's a little bit embarrassing that you chose it. And you were so confident in that choice in the moment, but it was misdirected for all the wrong reasons. I'm trying to think one that wouldn't be. So we've made loads of sort of operational mistakes. So I'll give you, I'll give you a good one.

And this is probably more specific to being a British business. So most of our, most of our business, most of our customers in the United States. And we've had incredible growth in the US. And I'm so lucky right. Since the business started, since I was in my late teens, early 20s, I've been going to the US constantly. And I absolutely love it there. And I feel so lucky every time I'm there.

And there was a period about, five or six years ago, where everyone said, if you want to win in the US, you've got to open up an office out in the US, and you've got to give the US that freedom to run the brand in the way that they think is right to grow in the US, which I think to a degree is right,

but obviously me being probably more higher propensity to risk as an entrepreneur, I was like, yeah, let's do it, go on, let's open up the office, let's build the team, let's give them the freedom, and they can just run with it. And I made a few hires that were wrong. I hired people that had come from,

bigger businesses that may be, weren't as attuned to the entrepreneurial way that I thought that we wanted to build. And then we started to go into, like what we said earlier, sportswear and all of these different things. And all of a sudden, the product then looked very different. The brand looked very different. And there was a point where, I remember me and Noel,

who's our chief of brand, we went to the US. And Noel put on the screen, and he said, this is Jim Shark in the UK. And I looked at it. I thought, wow, that looks great. That's Jim Shark through and through. Bodybuilding, lifting weights and, you know, people in the gym. and then he went

this is Jim Shark in the US and it was a guy he was playing football and he just didn't look like Jim Shark to me it almost looked like Nike with the Jim Shark logo on and what we'd done is I'd given far too much freedom for essentially

the American team to build out the business in a way that they thought was relevant in the market and I felt so bad because I thought I've just completely done this wrong and what we've actually learned is a real

centralised control of brand in particular and products globally, because our brand and product needs to be relevant globally, not different in different markets, with a more nuanced sort of commercial approach. So in the US, we're probably going to open up more stores as an example, whereas in the UK we'll be more e-commerce focus because it's a far smaller country and pretty much everywhere in the UK you get next day delivery. So we don't need as many stores. And I've done it the wrong way around. I'd been tight on the commercial approach and then I've been really open on the go-to-market brand and it meant that the brand

looked completely different and basically what we had to do was completely re-look at the entire office we actually ended up moving the office to New York and we just completely started again we probably lost 18 to 24 months just because of that mistake

and I just hadn't thought it through enough and I think again with the learning for me there is given how important the brand is to a business like ours to be so relaxed about it was such a huge mistake but there are entrepreneurs now that you sort of, I won't say model yourself after,

but you look to and be like, I, you know, formal and informal mentors. I'll always, obviously, my granddad. My granddad, when he started his business, he basically had to risk everything. And he had two kids, my mom and her sister, her sister has, my auntie has learning difficulties, so there's a level of cost with her care.

my granddad was working in factories BSA factories in the Midlands and things like that so he took a massive risk to start his business it was actually that it was hearing as a kid about the risks that he took that made it so easy for me to start businesses when I was a kid because he was telling me about all these massive risk and he had to look after my nan and the kids

and when I'm 18 and I didn't have to take I had no one that I had to worry about really other than myself that made it that really made me realise the opportunity I had to take risk so I definitely learned sort of risk taking from him obviously my parents have been I've got I've got such an amazing family my mom and dad are incredible as well and I learned so much from them my mom worked in the NHS her entire life one of the most hard working national health healthcare so she's she was a nurse coronary care so a heart nurse again my dad incredibly

hard working and incredibly mental strength like nothing I've ever seen before but then more in terms of industry. So there's a guy who lives in London called Ajars Ahmed and he actually founded a company called AKQA, which is a basically, it was a big marketing agency. He's he's since started another agency since. And I learned a lot from him. And he's so brand first. What did you learn from him? I learned, I remember we were doing our first ever restructure of the business and I remember it was killing me. It was absolutely killing me. The thought of people losing their jobs and having to restructure our business and it was the right decision in the more appropriate way for the sort of post-COVID market that it was at the time.

I remember we went out for food one day and I was like, Charles, come on, help me out here. Have you ever done this before? And he, and he's the kindest bloat you'll ever meet. And he just gave me some advice and he said, just make sure that you do things in the right way. just make sure you do it in the right way and he actually told me that he'd done a similar thing earlier in his career and it was the best thing that he'd ever done and it really helped his business then to grow

because the way that he described it to me was around your business needs to move as quickly as the market and you're in a market that's constantly moving if you're slower than the market then obviously things are going to get away from you and you won't be able to effectively serve your consumer and he also was constantly talking about building long-term brands being in an agency role

he's seeing great brands, he's seen not great brands and he sort of really has an enthusiasm for brand that a lot of people don't and I think of respect for brand that a lot of people don't so speaking to him and learning about pushing through the hard times doing things in the right way and really focusing on the long term was really important to me so I definitely learned a lot from a jars Harley and Toby at Shopify I haven't seen them in a while but again just listening to the way that they think about business is incredible what did you learn from them I learned it was really funny I actually. So years and years ago, they did a competition. And we won the competition because we

were one of the faster growing businesses on Shopify, particularly in the early days. And they flew us out to New York to see the Stock Exchange. That was the first ever media training I had. It was the scariest thing I've ever done. And then we went out to Fiji. And we were sat around loads of incredibly successful entrepreneurs. Obviously, Toby and Harley were there. There was Tony Robbins and there was a handful of other people. there was the guy from Airbnb there was Tim Ferriss I think was there

and I'm just sat looking at all these people thinking I've seen you on YouTube on the internet but I can't believe I'm seeing you in real life and then I wasn't really saying anything I was just listening and then I think someone said someone said oh if you got was talking to someone else

and they were like oh do you have a plan for that and he said no I'm just winging it and then someone else went yeah I'm just winging it too and I remember looking around thinking you guys are running businesses that are probably bigger than our business will ever be and if you're just winging it, then that makes me feel so much better about myself

because I feel like I'm just winging it, and I'm just looking at all these people, and I have this moment of realisation thinking, if you're winging it, I'm probably always going to be winging it. And then it made me realise that I don't have to feel like I've always got everything together. There was a recognition around the table

that everyone's doing a lot of things for the first time. And there's a level of comfort that then that gave me, that I don't always have to have everything together. I can explore new ideas and I can fail at things, and it's not defining of me or nor the, business and then we can equally when you do succeed that's not defining it doesn't mean you're always going to be successful there's this real nice feeling i had where it was almost like pressure off from this moment i'm doing a lot of things for the first time and i'm just going to

try my best to do it right and i'm going to build a business that i'm proud of as you're talking about it you know i'm realizing there's two types of winging it and this is and again i'm going to sound like a broken record which is there's a reason i admire the purity of your business which is it is a the foundation is so strong the values are so strong the clarity of who we are, what we do and who we serve is so strong that I think when you have strong foundation, strong values, then you can wing it. Yeah. Because it's based on, it's not, it's based on something down here. You know, it's based on something down here. And so you're making these decisions, but it's coming, it's born out of something and there's a, and there's a

code that's guiding those reactive decisions, right? Companies that I think are winging it based on market opportunity, pressure from investors. They're still winging it, but it's not stuck to anything. There's no code. There's no values. And those are the ones who are chasing market share, chasing trends, and they may have little spikes and little short-term successes. They may, you know, you throw an spaghetti against the wall.

Some of it does stick. And that may even propel them to be viewed as, quote, unquote, successful because they won a lottery on one of those guesses, but it's not sustainable. You know, you look at a lot of companies that, you know, you look at a lot of companies that, were on the covers of magazines that barely exist anymore. You know, and they've all been on the covers of all the magazines. So I think there's two types of winging it, you know. There's winging it based on, based on values and based on knowing who you are.

And there's winging it taking your cues not on that purity of our customer and ourselves, but winging it based on an investor or some market trend that you're chasing. Because when you were winging it and chasing swimming and hiking, that was externally. Yeah. You know. It's funny, my mom went to,

we got a shop in London on Regent Street. My brother took my mom to the shop a few months ago. And they, he said they got to the end. And mom went,

do you know what, Joe? I'm not really a fan a lot of the product that you're making at the moment. And Joe went, too right. You're 50 something years old and you haven't been to the gym

in 20 years. And it was a bit, it was a bit of a funny moment where he sort of told my mom. And it was like, that that's right right you know the customer goes to the gym all the time they're in their early 20s and they want to wear product to show off their physique we're not building product for my 55 year old mom who was a nurse in teleoak do you know what I mean so it was quite that was quite

a funny moment I was quite proud of him because it was a bit like yeah this is this is who we are and this is what we stand for and I know that's a you know a funny sort of extreme example but that that's that's what we have to continue to there's an irony in your brand and the irony is, is a lot of your clothes, as you said, are made to show off. Like your t-shirt that you said, that's physique accentuated. It's tight. Let me show you the result of all my hard work. You know, I've bought your stuff and sized up because it's too tight. But that's what it's supposed to be. You know, you can degrees of how much your bum you want accentuated, you know. I mean, like, is it.

It's all about showing off the hard work. But as a company, you're not a show off company. Reconcile that your products are for showing off, but you don't like showing off. You're the opposite. You're totally humble and sort of on a journey and know you have more to learn, et cetera. Yeah, I know.

I think, well, we have product, right? We have the oversized products as well that you can just sort of throw on and you can wear in the winter months where you're just trying to build up your physique. But no, I don't know. I don't know. I think if I had to guess, if I had to guess,

think it goes right back to why you like the gym, which is, and you said it right at the beginning of this interview, which is, if I do hard work, I will see the results of my hard work. And I think if somebody's going to spend the time to go to the gym and put in that effort, part of the reward is being able to see what I've done. And the best way to see it is with a naked is one way, but to work product. but to wear a product that you can see my hard work. Yeah. Because, I mean, there aren't shortcuts.

Yeah. And it's great because we do these events. You should come to one at some point. So we've got one. We've got a couple coming up, one in the UK, one in the US. And you go that and you'd expect everyone to be massive and shredded and bodybuilder. But there's all sorts of physiques. And there's a recognition that if you're in the gym, you're on the journey and everyone's on that journey together.

And I really, really like that. And it's just a really nice place to be. And again, it's great because that's what I grew up doing. I remember I went to Body Power in Birmingham. It was the best, I think it was the best fitness event in the world in the sort of 2012, 2013 time. I remember being so annoyed because I had to leave the event early to go to my shift at Pizza sort of thing. But it was such an inspiring event for me. So, yeah, to be able to do this day and day out, that was great.

I mean, the more we talk about this, the more I realize that your community, Community. When I started running, or actually not even when I started, when I was a full on runner, I would be running around Central Park. I'd run around Central Park, you know, whatever it was, three, four times a week. And there was something magical about runners, and I assume it's the same people for gym rats, which is I would run past someone who is not in shape. They are really struggling to go to very, very slow pace, you know? And here we are. We're all, you know, fit and running fast and keeping our pace and all of this stuff. And I remember, to this day, you run past them and you go, you have the level of respect. And you lift your head. You're out here doing the work. And the thing that I loved about that community was nobody thought they were better than somebody else. We were, some of us were in better shape and some of us were in lesser shape. And you said different shapes, different sizes. But there was such respect that you're out here doing the work. And you got a head. I remember when I was huffing and puffing and

Some elite runner would have woke past me and give me a head nod. And I loved that. The only other time I've seen that, this is a funny, I worked out with the 80-second airborne. I worked out with the military, the army. And I remember we were up at the crack of dawn, it was still dark out, and we're up, we're in the, in the car park doing press-ups, doing push-ups, and it was like gravel. So it's like, unbelievably painful on your hands doing push-ups on a gravel. And we're like, do all this work. And I'm like, whew, good workout, guys.

It turns out that was the warm up. And then we actually went and did the workout, which was a circuit. And we had to do the circuit a number of times. And what I found, it was one of the best workouts of my life, and I'll tell you why, which is absolutely we were all competing. Like when we were running, guys were pushing hard, right? But nobody was competing against each other. They were competing against themselves.

Right? like if somebody who wanted to win, it's not because they wanted somebody else to lose. It's because they wanted to push themselves to be the fastest that day. But I remember guys would run past me and they'd tap me as they ran past me. Keep it going. Keep it going. And so even in competition, they were pushing and rooting for the others. So again, it was pushing themselves. They were competing against themselves.

They weren't competing against each other. And it was the most amazing experience with hyper A-type competition. competitive people that wouldn't gloat because they beat you, they would be proud because they won. There's a big difference. But they were pushing everybody else to run harder, push hard, to pull, you know, lift heavier. It was kind of amazing. But don't you think that's the sort of thing that would be nice to see more in general business, as in people just trying to build the best business that they possibly can, rather than constantly comparing to a another business that is similar in one specific way, but different in every other specific way? Because I often see a lot of that

of JimShart have a, I don't know, they're great at e-commerce or they've got a great social following. And I think so many people will come and ask me what, you know, how should I build my business? I think so much around you just need to build your business for you, around what is important to you and around, you know, your community and your customer rather than trying to build another version of Jim Shark. It goes back to that foundation, right? You've got to know who you are and what you stand for and then you build from there. I don't think you can build a hundred year business trying to compete or beat somebody else. I think you can only build a hundred year business trying to outdo yourselves. Yeah, I agree. What's your approach to managing

your time so that you get the most out of your professional and personal life? Oh, this has changed. So this has changed a lot since we had kids. So before I would just work all the time and fly whenever, go anywhere at a moment's notice. My wife said to me since we had kids, she was like, I want you home on the weekends and it's really important to me that I am because I just love being with the kids and being at home with the family and Robin so within generally I'll be at home on the weekends and again that's important for me to protect in the week I generally really try and focus my time around products and essentially the the direct sort of team that I work with I also just love going something I love to do more than anything is just to go to loads of different

gym. So if I'm in New York, I'll just try different gyms, because you end up just chatting to people all the time, and you end up learning something that you would never, ever normally pick up. And again, quite fortunate now doing, I guess, doing the job I do, because sort of people come up to me as often as I'll come up to them. But I absolutely love that. But no, generally, I'll focus my time around, obviously, being in the office every day. I'm not the sort of person that I could ever work from home. But generally, it'll be around being with a team and focusing on the product. And when you're home on the weekends, you're not at home just, working. You're at home with the family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would avoid work at all costs on the

weekend if I can. Love. One of the things that's interesting is you have on the wall, family first, as one of the values. What can people who are not running companies do to have an impact on the world, but still make sure that they're providing for their loved ones? Like, how do you strike that balance? Because at some point, one of those things has to get sacrificed. Yeah. People who make an impact, as you said, aren't necessarily at home all the time. Yeah. What can the rest of us do? Do you have to pick one? I mean, I don't know.

I think the thing I've noticed, and this is both with myself, also with friends and colleagues, is if you do a job that you really, really enjoy, you genuinely enjoy, I think you'll often be better at it, and then I think you'll be happier in your general life. And even if you have to work, there's periods, I think, where you have to work more, there's periods where you can probably get away with working a little bit less.

And I know it sounds cliche, but I do think focusing on what you love. got friends that I've got a friend actually who moved on from here not too long ago he was one of the first employees who worked here for about 10 years and he just sort of ran out of mojo he sort of we were chatting he wasn't really enjoying the job as much as he was and he sort of wanted to be here because he always was but then he sort of didn't because there's a load of other things he wanted to he wanted to do work abroad and stuff and we were just sat there and we said go off and do it just go off and do it and you can always come

back you know if you don't if you go off and you go and work in spain for a bit and you don't like it you can always come back and that's what he's done and he seems so happy he's loving it and it's really nice to see so it's it's an interesting thing for me whereas the difference in him in making that decision he's just like a different person he seems so excited and happy and you know I've got lots of other friends and don't go wrong I'd rather a lot of them have not left I'd much rather just be with me and stay here because we're friends and I love being with them focusing on what they love is really important and then there's people that have been here 10, 11, 12 years, literally since day one,

that love it just as much, if not more than they did. And I think for me, doing what you love is really important. I think it's interesting because we and I have had some highs at this business that are incredible being the fastest growing company in the UK, some of the global events that we've done, some of the incredible things that we've done out in the US. and they're genuinely incredible achievements that I'm so proud of but then when you get home and one of your kids runs up to you

and gives you a massive hug and he's happy that you're home it trumps all of them so I think it's also worth remembering that as well Ben it's such a treat for me to sit down with you I could talk to you forever and you know this is the second time we've hung out and I've learned from you more this time even than last time I really really I'm rooting for you because I think how you're building your business is the way all businesses should be built from now on. Thank you.

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So good. A bit of optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team Lindsay Garbenius and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more.

And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance. a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simon cynic.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.