A Bit of Optimism - The Soul of an Idea with David Copperfield

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

“Soul” is a word that I've never really used, but it perfectly encapsulates what has made David Copperfield the most successful magician of all time.  He has filled global audiences with awe for over 40 years.  He made the Statue of Liberty disappear, escaped from Alcatraz, and walked through the Great Wall of China.  And it turns out, the key to great magic is also the key to any great work: a visceral, emotional connection between the act and the performer.  You have to find and honor the soul of the idea.  This is…A Bit of Optimism. For more on David and his work check out: https://www.davidcopperfield.com/html/ 

David Copperfield has done some remarkable things. He made the Statue of Liberty disappear. He made an entire jet disappear. He walked through the Great Wall of China. In fact, he is the most commercially successful magician in history. So how is it that someone can stay passionate for so long? And how do they keep coming up with ideas that keep them and their audiences interested? It turns out it's about finding the soul of an idea. And this is what David has been doing for so long and the rest of us can really learn from. This is a bit of optimism.

David, thanks for joining me. One of the reasons I wanted to bring you on the podcast is you are one of the very few people in show business who've had a career that has lasted as long as yours has. I mean, you've been famous since what, your early 20s? 18. This year is the 40th anniversary of when you made the Statue of Liberty disappear, and you were already a thing when you made the Statue of Liberty disappear. I mean, to have a career this long is rare in Hollywood. As you know, people come and go in the entertainment business. One of the things I'm so curious about is- It's all based on fear. It's all based on fear.

What do you mean? We can get into it. I'll lie down. You can- So tell me about your childhood. What do you mean it's based on fear? You know, my mother, you know, didn't want me to do this, right? And I convinced her I'd never have any success in this magic stuff. You know, and I was taking dancing classes. She was afraid I'd be a dancer when I was taking. I was taking dancing classes to inform my magic, you know,

kind of to make it visually pleasing. I was taking acting lessons because I wanted my magic to be better. How old were you at this time? 16, 15. And I would go to New York every day from New Jersey. And it was fantastic I didn't know what was the future held for me but I knew that if I had background in many different

areas it would be very helpful my mother was going, I don't think it's such a good idea, it was really pretty heated, my father gave up his dream of being an actor but he gave it up so he could eat so it was a big fear that I would not have a job, be able to eat.

So I had to prove to myself that maybe it's possible. I went to Fordham for three weeks. And then I got a job in Chicago being a star of a show. I was at 18. Wow. I was very lucky. And there's been lots of lows too, right? Without everybody, right?

But it was an interesting journey. But fear of looking not good is definitely there. Isn't it for you? Don't you have fear? I heard Lionel Richie talk about this. The fear he had of going out on stage and the fear he had of admitting he couldn't do something. Like he couldn't read music, for example. And he said the difference between the coward and the hero is that both are scared,

completely consumed by fear, but the coward takes one step back and the hero takes one step forward. I've been both. I'm a mix of the coward and the hero. I do take steps back momentarily. They don't last that long, but I do take the hit. I get slapped and like, oh, and then I kind of, I come out of it and try to work harder at it. I am interested in fear and I want to go deeper into that. And I'm interested in how one has a career that has lasted this long. And you're the most commercially successful magician in history. Is your joy? Because I meet a lot of people who've had careers doing something and they reach a point in their career where they are so good at it,

they know how to do it and they keep doing it, but they don't derive the same excitement or joy as they did in the early days. You're still coming up with new illusions. And I'm so curious where the joy from the developing of the illusions or the performing comes from. Is it still as joyful today as it was 20 years ago, 30 years, 40 years ago? It's the same, but it's not, it's the same, but it's the same process every time. It's joy to walk on stage and do a show for people that seem to need to be there. They seem to need to be, you know, transported. They seem to be really happy to be there. So it's a good place to be. It's not unlike when you give speeches and talks and so forth, are you don't have an audience full of enemies maybe a couple you know and i'm there

you got an enemy but but when but normally people are kind of happy to be there they want to be in the room so that's a good job to be in a room where people kind of happy to be and i and i do like that process of doing shows but getting there is always a tough journey because i'm always getting higher i'm not doing the same thing over and over again there's no joy in repeating myself and doing the same thing the joy is going through the process of failing and then succeeding it's not fun it's not fun but the succeeding at it is fun my My show is my show. But after every show, I'm doing a little session in the hallway for 20 people, you know, 20, 30, whoever does the meet and greet. It's a joyous opportunity for me to try things out. And we videotape.

And after the show, I look and say, oh, if I change this word or I, you know, gesture this way or speak to this person or have this or change my script or hold the thing I learn every single time. And that's kind of fun failing and then being able to fix it and solve the problems i almost looked forward to that as much as the show doing that process at the end and then i discover how to make it great and if i was doing the same thing i'm just repeating the same thing it wouldn't be fun it's because i'm risking trying to take magic in a new direction changing the language for magic from what to what i've got a big library i've got a new direction, changing the language for magic. From what to what? I've got a big library. I've got a gigantic, maybe one of the biggest libraries of magic,

because that's hundreds of thousands of books of magic. The joy is taking it to a place that doesn't exist in those books. As you know, my show is not card tricks, even though there's nothing wrong with card tricks. People love them, but that's the same. Each time I do a new piece of magic, I can't play on the same piano. I've got to invent the piano, reinvent the technology each time I do a piece of magic. That's really hard. You know, all the great songwriters, it's hard for them to write a beautiful song. But they still have the piano.

They still have the guitar. The instrument is still the same. I've got to have a new piano. I've got to have a new instrument. And then comes the story. Then comes the lighting, music, all that comes on top of that. But each time, I've got to have a new piano. I have to have a new instrument. And then comes the story. Then comes the lighting, music, all that come on top of that. But each time I've got to have a new piano. That's why it's so difficult to have lots and lots of magic.

Does the joy come from fooling people? Or is it the joy that you had something that you had to reinvent and you did it and it worked and you see it on your audience's faces? Aha. Or is it just the joy of entertaining? If you were a singer and a dancer, would you derive the same joy being on the stage? Is it simply the joy of giving people escape? Where do you find fulfillment in all of this? It's changing everything. Fooling people, amazing people is a prerequisite. I have to do that. That is just, I have to, that's nothing interesting about that because I have to do that. That's nothing interesting about that because I have to do that.

Anyway, a lot of people focus on just that. Was I amazed? Was I fooled? That's uninteresting to me. I have to do it. I'll make it good. I'll invent the technology to make that happen. Then it's conveying the message, the story, the feeling, the emotion. That's what's interesting. If that connects, if the people in the audience are amazed and, that's what's interesting, if that connects. If the people in the audience are amazed and cry, then it's interesting. If the people in the audience are amazed and are inspired, then it's interesting. You know, I'm not doing car tricks or escapes. I've done all that.

I'm doing dinosaurs, as you know. Yeah, and I love your show. I've seen it a lot of times, and I love it. One of the illusions is this larger than life dinosaur that you cannot believe even fits in the theater appears at some point. And it is astonishing. It is astonishing what it happens. And it also goes 13 feet over the heads of the audience. So it's not watching a stage proscenium.

It's at you. It's your living. Yeah. Seen from alien where the face is right in your face. Literally like that. So it's like trying to compete with James Cameron or Spielberg or J.J. Abrams, trying to compete with that. How does it start? Like, where did the original visions come from? Does it start with, what if I could invent a technology that would do this? Now, how do I build an illusion around it? Or does it start with, what if I could do that now? How do

I go backwards? Elton John writes music one particular way. Bernie Taupin sends him a poem, he feels the poem, what it is, what it's going to say, and then he writes the music to it. That's their system. That's it. Most of the songwriters don't do that. The answer to most, which comes first, the music or the lyrics, In his case, lyric and then music happens. Most songwriters will say it depends, right? Most of them will say it always depends. Same analogy with my magic. I'll find a new piece of technology, and I'll say,

wow, this can be really amazing. And then I'll create the magic, and then the story will come afterwards. But sometimes I'll have a story to tell. My father and my mother pass away. I say, I've got to figure this out because I didn't say goodbye to my father. Let's see. All right. I know I want to tell that story.

I know my father was stationed at Roswell. We found out after he's dead, he was stationed at Roswell when the aliens landed. I said, okay, alien story. My father didn't say goodbye. I thought alien. And then I thought back to my childhood, there was a thing, gigantic thing called Topo Gigio

on the Ed Sullivan show. That was in the 60s. And it was, the people took America by storm. It was amazing thing. It was a puppet. And people behind it dressed in black

would be animating the puppet and it was astonishingly lifelike. And I started developing technology with a bunch of very talented people making animatronic so i spent a number of years working with people who are very good at animatronics and made a character and i said okay i need uh as part of the story to do something expected of me which is airplane level statutory level that kind of thing. A spaceship. Okay, we got a spaceship. Started working

because I needed a spaceship to appear. That was the journey of that. So it started with the need to have a spaceship appear that I started working on that. That's a five-year journey to make all that come together.

I wrote a script and I had friends of mine, Frank Darabont, you know, Shawshank Redemption. He helped me with the script. Comedy, Frank Darabont, you know, who did Shawshank Redemption. He helped me with the script, comedy. We had Mike Reese from The Simpsons.

Who's been on the podcast, who's wonderful. The audience hated it, by the way. You know, the first two years, they just didn't like it. Why am I being so indulgent with 30 minutes of the show? Disaster. And I just, you know, remembered all those stories of Casablanca or Cabaret, which they say really bad until they just tweak and tweak and tweak and got it right. So I got a lot of strength in believing in something that didn't work. And then the third year, starting to see a light. I got to give you credit here. You're in the entertainment business,

the applause, the reviews, these things matter in the entertainment business what i so admire is when it doesn't work that you're willing not to take it off the show and try and reinvent it then reintroduce it which is usually what people do but you leave it in the show and you tweak it and you tweak it and you tweak it and you tweak it mean, to keep something in a show for two years until it worked. I mean, it's either stupid or ballsy. I can't figure it out. How come you didn't say to yourself, okay, it's a good idea.

I can't make it work. So you know what? We gave it a good try. We left it in for a year. We tweaked the heck out of it. I'm going to take it out of the show. What makes you so pigheaded that you keep at it, believing that at some point it's going to work? I owed it to my dad. That was a big part of it. And I believed in it. I just believed that I could

get it right. Has there been an illusion that you've worked on that actually you did quit and say, okay, it's not going to work and I'm taking it off the stage. Has that happened? One time, insignificantly, it was a thing that I thought was a funny thing. Make your own magician. You have a piece of Gumby. You have a piece of Marilyn Monroe. You'd have a thing. And whatever you selected, I came out as a combination of these characters. It was something that didn't last long. People didn't like it, but I didn't really believe in it that much. It was a kind of a fun thing.

It didn't have the gravitas that I would need to stick with it. In Pixar land, the things that they end up doing after it failing, there is a bit of a heart or a soul that they have to get through. This was an example of that for me. It's not stubbornness i also kind

of know when it's right i'll feel one of my good things i listen i'm a pretty good listener i listen and i'll know when it's right and i'll know that i can make it work i don't know how but i know i can make it work and it's like every single great thing that's taking place on earth you know whether it's inventions or electricity or a light bulb or there's so much failure and failure and flight the act of flying is 400 years from da vinci to the right breath it's 400 years it's crazy you know they're close it's so close they know a bird can fly but we couldn't get it right and then finally after da vinci drew it took 400 years to do it. As you know, I'm working on stuff that is real stuff with physicists and stuff to try to harness the power of gravity. We're probably hundreds of years away from really doing it.

I know it can work. But to plant the seed, to find the way and find a bunch of smart people to finally make it work so gravity can be our ally. And I think a lot of it is knowing that there is a goal there it's a hard goal but eventually chip away at it and it happens like the airplane like flight human flight i love this idea of something having soul the one illusion that you abandon is like like it's fine if it worked it would have been fun if it didn't work soulless it was soulless it was soulless. Yeah. It might've been cute or fun or clever, but it was soulless. When I think about marketing or I think about product development,

there's not really a good language to describe when a project or a company has soul. I think we talk around it. We talk about authenticity. We talk about purpose. None of those words or concepts really capture what I think what you're saying here, which is it has soul. If I just think out loud, like when does something have soul is when I think we find we have an emotional relationship with that thing. You didn't have an emotional relationship with make your own magician, but you had a deep emotional relationship with obviously the story of your dad and you didn't get to say goodbye to him and you wanted to share that story i mean you had a deep emotional relationship which is why it was

worth continuing to invest in it it's hard to find something you really feel that way about that you committed yeah the things i think back i knew when i was going to fly that was worth spending seven years on it's worth it because I knew- Seven years. Yeah, yeah. To get it really, really right. And you can feel it and people would probably feel it. I want to change tacks slightly here. Sure.

You do something that I don't even know if you do, that it took me a while to adjust to and now I actually have learned from you and I actually do this, which is the way you ask questions of people. I'll say like, oh, I love that movie. And you'll say, what did you love about it? Or yeah, I didn't really care for it. And you'll say, what didn't you care for? You always question someone's opinion to understand the details underlying. And when the first few times you did it to me,

I took it really personally. It was actually unnerving. And I realized some of the times we say things flippantly, oh yeah, I love that or I hate that. And we actually don't love or hate it. We just say things flippantly. And when you ask the question, well, what did you hate about it? You don't have an answer. I find that so fascinating that you want to know someone's reasoning for liking or disliking something because you're so detail obsessed and such a perfectionist that even in your way of asking questions, you want to understand the nuance of everything. I don't even know if you know that you do that. Definitely know that I do it. Definitely.

Because I want to see what's so good about it. But do you know that sometimes it pushes people on their heels? That I wasn't really. I didn't know that. That pushes people on their heels? That I wasn't really... I didn't know that. That's interesting that it puts you back. Because people aren't prepared. They haven't thought about it. Sometimes they just say, oh, I liked it or I didn't like it. I really want

to know. I want to know because I want to learn from it. Back when I was a kid, Neil Diamond was this gigantic touring show like Taylor Swift. And people say, I went to see him. That was the best show I've ever seen. And I go, well, I haven't, I didn't see it. He's the greatest entertainer of all time. And I go, why?

I want to know why. I want to learn. What can I do to be, I'm 12 years old. Why is that? Why? What is it? Well, he did this and the attitude. Well, okay.

I want to know what, what can I learn from that? But as you know, detail is everything to me. You know, can I learn from that? But as you know, detail is everything to me. You see the levels of detail. And you and I have had a little disagreement about that in the very beginning. You came to a resort that I had, and you made fun of me for my detail. You made fun of me. What I didn't understand, the reason you're so good at what you do is you understand that the angel is in the details. You're playing with our senses, our ears and our eyes, and we're alert. And I understand that to do the things you do at the level you have to do them, the obsession with detail is an absolute must.

And it's not something you do for work. It is who you are. Your obsession with detail and everything, it's your personality. And I recognize that it comes out everywhere. I've learned to love and not roll my eyes, but actually now love that you see things that nobody else sees. I think I've told this story on the podcast before, and I think I've told you before, the story of Walt Disney and the animatronic parrot. Disneyland is a new park and the Disney Imagineers make an animatronic parrot that is perfect in every detail. It moves like a parrot. It looks like a parrot. It's got feathers on it. And they're so

excited to show it to Walt Disney. They bring them over and they make it move and they're all excited. And Walt says, nope, no one will believe it. And they go, Walt, what are you doing? It's perfect in every detail. And he said, no, it's not breathing. And they said, no one will notice. And he replied, people can feel perfection. And that's 100% true, which is if people went on that ride and saw the bird, no one would say it's not breathing, but they'd all say, I don't know.

It just doesn't feel real to me. And he understood that these details that superficially don't matter, matter. That's where you, I think, are one of the best in the world is seeing the details that people don't realize that matter, matter. And it makes the experience so much more profoundly better, even though you wouldn't know what it was. Your ability to see that stuff, I actually find quite amazing. And I didn't understand it when I first met you. That is true. And now I think it's a superhuman power you have. I think it's a superpower. That's why I'm here. That's why I've lasted this time. Every single thing is important. As you've talked about in your work, everything's important. The graphics are important's important everything's important yeah you know i will not put something in the show for two years because i can't find the right piece of music

everything will be great but the piece of music is not i won't even put it in the show you know and there's still so much work to do our lives are works in progress right i know you've derived inspiration from the magicians of all, the greats of the past. Not that many. That's not true. Not that many. So who from the past, even recent history, do you look to, not just because you're like,

no, they were good at their craft, but you maybe have a worthy rival, someone who's actually did something better than you, that you've actually made yourself better because of them. Who from the past has made you better? Magicians. There's only one magician that really was Gene Kelly level,

Fred Astaire level, Coppola level, and he wasn't an inventor. The reason you don't know him is because he wasn't a complete package, but he did one thing. He performed classic effects, not original effects, not going through the work I do. There was a magician named Rishi Arti who moved a certain way.

When did he live? He died in the 70s. Okay. So it was 50s, 60s, 70s, 40s, somewhere in there. But he was a great performer. That's it. Not inventing.

He spoke okay. He wasn't a star because he couldn't speak. But when he moved, when he did certain effects, it was as good as it gets. And I think about him in the show every day. That's one person as far as performing goes.

As far as inventing goes, Robert Houdin and Georges Méliès, you can Google them, they invented great magic. I take a lot of inspiration from the fact that these guys invented the cinema, invented automatons, invented, you know, change magic in their time,

as I'm attempting to do in my time. I think people would be surprised when I ask who you look to as worthy rivals from the past that made you better at what you do now, that you didn't say Houdini. Houdini is so famous. He worked hard at being famous. He didn't invent very much stuff.

He was a great publicist, great publicist, and found a soul. And the soul was escaping from stuff. He was an okay magician. Not the greatest magician, honestly. But he found, when he escaped from handcuffs,

escaping was something that resonated with people. People who were, at a time, very bound up and kind of had a lot of trouble in the world. He was a guy that was a superhero. Escaping things. It wasn't about his magic. It was about escaping and challenging. A lot of it was kind of all a setup to get publicity for the newspaper,

him, whatever, like that. But he was brilliant at it. Did he invent anything? Not really. Was he a great performer? They say not. That's funny because he was, like so many artists today fine but brilliant marketers go outside of magic but who are the people today that you look to and be like damn that's good

i think you know the wednesday dance is pretty cool why did that work she has this amazing compelling look the choice of the music it's kind of captivating. You know, it's amazing. The Wednesday dance? Yeah. What is that? Well, there's a show called Wednesday that Tim Burton has. And Jenna Ortega is an amazing star of this show. But this, the dance, this choice of things, it's a wonderful, you know, viral thing that is just like kind of compelling.

It has a soul to it. Yeah, there you go. Is there something that you have a vision of compelling as a soul to it. Yeah, there you go. Is there something that you have a vision for that has a story to it that has soul that you haven't figured out how to make it work yet? You know, you said it took seven years for you to perfect flying. Is there something that's in your workshop that's been there for five years, six years that you're still tinkering that it's not ready for public consumption yet and you can't get it right, but my God, you believe in it. You're never going to quit. This gravity thing is like that.

I certainly know how to prototype that on stage, how to make gravity look controllable, but to make that real and to get really, really smart people thinking about that, how to really harness it like we harness electricity to make this whole climate issue frictionless. I'm developing things for my show to communicate a message in a non-preachy way to maybe inspire people to kind of make little changes to leave a better world for our kids. That's something that I'm very interested in. You know, one of the things I don't think I've ever told you, I remember the first time you asked me to look at one of your scripts for something you were working on. And I was honest

and told you what I thought and, you know, tried to offer some point of view. And eventually, I came to the show and I saw one of the very first versions of the script that I had the opportunity to see and offer comment on before it became a real thing. And some of my notes were in the show. And as the show progressed, as that illusion progressed, the order of the things were some of the notes that I had given and they changed. And I can't tell you how proud I felt. Like every time I would see that illusion, I was like, I felt so proud that I had a little bit to do with that. And I just, you know, I have immense gratitude that you let me contribute to something that mattered to you, that had soul. So I don't think I've ever told you that, but thank you

for letting me contribute because it meant a lot to me yeah that's nice to hear but the fact is you know it's the opposite of what you're saying you know i'm thankful to you you know i've got a lot of smart friends right and um and i i reach out to them and make myself vulnerable and i listen i'm a good list one of my good things i'm a good listener you're a good listener too and listen and just think about it and you, you know, we're not alone. A lot of people that I have an amazing success that I've had the chance to meet share that sponge magnetic thing. Michael Jackson will make you feel like you're smarter than him. He would make you feel like he cared about your opinions and thoughts.

It was amazing. And then you realize, wait a minute, even about music, he'd ask. And he'd wonder, and he'd squint his eyes and go, well, what do you mean by that? Why? Warren Beatty would ask incredible questions. It's like, what are you doing? Barbara Streisand, same thing.

You know, she would just like want to act like an empty barrel that was smarter because you fill that barrel with information and try to motivate it. It's funny that you see yourself and people that have done very, very well, you look up to. Yeah. I guess we should underline that point, which is you're so good at what you do. You're considered one of the best in the business, one of the best magicians ever. And yet it's true. When you're working on something, you go to lots of people and you are vulnerable and you say, I can't make this work. Will you look at it? I don't know how to solve this problem. Will you look at it? I'm stuck here. Will you look at it? And you show it to, you don't have like one trusted confidant. You'll call

people and sometimes even call people you don't know, but you know them from industry that you admire their work and you'll reach out to them and say, can you look at this for me? I am amazed at the level of vulnerability that you're willing to show when you're working on something to get someone's input. Even if it's working, by the way, Simon, even if it's working, I show it to people and say, what did you hate about this? Take this apart. Really, the audience is okay. They give me enough approval, but to have people that, you know, it's hard, but it's motivating them to say something negative. Find the fault in this. Find the flaw, please. Isn't it hard to get the truth though? I mean, you're famous. People show you a lot of

professional respect. There's a lot of gravitas for who you are. And do you find that it's hard to get people to tell you this sucked? A hundred percent. But you learn to say, okay, I appreciate that. But now, come on, did you hate that? I will actually present things that are problematic that I think would probably like to motivate them to say this. Yeah. Yeah. The first time I didn't want to upset.

I didn't know. I didn't know. So it took me a round or two. Now I'll tell you anytime you want to know. We want to be nice to our fellow human beings. We want to build them up and do that and kind of give it and serve the food in a nice presentation. But you have to just tell them, okay, this isn't working for me. David, here's what I've learned from you.

I've learned a lot from you over the years, but here's what I've learned from you. I've learned a lot from you over the years, but here's what I've learned from you just in this time, which is this idea of soul is a word that I've never really used. I love it because I think it helps explain something ethereal as to why you should commit to something and why you should be stubborn to try and figure it out because it matters, because it matters.

And to have personal connection to the work that we do is what distinguishes a long career like yours, a 40 plus year career like yours versus somebody who may have short-term success. And the lasting success is you've got to really believe in the things you're doing. You have to have visceral emotional connection. Otherwise it's not worth committing the energy to. I've learned that from you. And the other thing that I've learned is the desire to really understand why people like things, not because you're testing them, it's because you want to find out what you're missing or where there's something you can learn. And to question people's opinions about things for growth, I think is something I wish we would

all do. It also holds people to higher standards before they render opinions. Thank you so much for doing this. I always love learning from you. And I love your point. We learn from each other, don't we? Thank you. You've helped me many, many times. Thank you.

It's always an honor. Thanks so much for doing this. Such a joy. Every time we have one of these conversations, I learn something. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to learn more about the topic you just heard, please check out the Optimism Library at simonsenik.com,

where you can get access to more than 35 undemanded classes about leadership, culture, purpose, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.