A Bit of Optimism - Vulnerability with Brigadier General Michael “Johnny Bravo” Drowley

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

If you ask people in the military what makes them willing to sacrifice themselves for each other, the answer may surprise you. It’s not God or country… it's LOVE. In business we have colleagues and co-workers, in the military, they have brothers and sisters. Bonds like that inspire people to do remarkable things for each other. I sat down with Brigadier General Michael “Johnny Bravo” Drowley, to understand what it takes to build a bond of love on a team. This is… A Bit of Optimism.YouTube: http://youtube.com/simonsinekFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinekLinkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinekInstagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinekTwitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinekPinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/officialsimonsinek 

In August of 2002, a little less than a year after the attacks on the World Trade Center, the American military was already in Afghanistan trying to weed out the Taliban and find Osama bin Laden. and find Osama bin Laden. An A-10 pilot with the call sign Johnny Bravo was assigned to fly over a valley to protect 22 special operations forces that were making their way through a valley to extract what the government likes to call a high-value target.

Johnny Bravo and his wingmen flew the A-10 Warthog, which is a slow, low-flying attack aircraft designed to provide ground cover for the troops below. On this night, the heavy cloud cover was lit up by the moon. It made it look like the snow had just fallen. Johnny Bravo was in contact with the troops below, and he got an uncomfortable feeling from the tone of their voice. So he told his wingman, hang out up here. I'm going to go down and have a look. He pointed his plane to the clouds. His plane thrashed about in the turbulence as he flew through the storm clouds. And when he finally popped out below the clouds, less than a thousand feet above the ground,

clouds, less than a thousand feet above the ground. The sight that he witnessed, he'd never seen anywhere before, not in training, not in combat, not even in the movies. Tons of tracer fire coming from the sides of the valley pointed right at where the American troops were below. He didn't even know where to begin. He pointed his guns at the source of some of the fire and laid down suppression. Good hits, good hits, he heard from the troops below. He was flying at over 350 miles an hour in a valley that was only about a mile and a half wide at its widest point. He'd count out loud to avoid hitting the mountain, 1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000. loud to avoid hitting the mountain. One 1,000, two 1,000, three 1,000. And at the right time, he'd pull hard on his stick, pull a high G turn, go back up into the clouds to go back for another run. His fuel was fine, but he ran out of ammunition. He flew back to the top of the

clouds and he said to his wingman, you need to get back down there. And so the two of them flew back down into the valley, flying three feet apart from each other, wing to wing. Johnny Bravo counted while his wingman laid down the suppression. One 1,000, two 1,000, three 1,000. That night, 22 Americans went home alive with zero casualties. I had the chance to meet Johnny Bravo, and I asked him a simple question. Why did you do it? Those were unflyable conditions. No one would have ordered you to do it. You've got a wife and kids. Why did you do it? And he gave me a simple answer, because they would have done it for me. It's because of this unbelievable bond of love and trust.

In the military, they give medals to people who are willing to sacrifice themselves so that others may gain. In business, we give bonuses to people who are willing to sacrifice others so that we may gain. We've got it backwards. I want to work with people like Johnny Bravo. Why don't we have more people like him in the private sector? So I sat down with Johnny Bravo to understand how they build that love. This is a bit of optimism. JB, thanks for doing this. Absolutely.

Are you kidding? I've known you for 11 years now. Wow. And I have to say, of all the people I've met in my life, and you and I have become good friends over the years, it is amazing how much I have learned from you. And I've never told you this. How much I've learned from you. And I've never told you this, how much I've learned from you about service and integrity. And I'll tell you a story that I have repeated to myself and repeated to others, just one of the many stories, just about you going about your day, but the intense

lesson for me. So I was supposed to come out and visit you a bunch of years ago. And I think it was the day before you called me and said, can't come. You said, we've had a bit of a, an incident on base and I need to deal with it. And if I remember the details, a few junior officers went out drinking with a junior enlisted colleague. They came back to base and they were a little tipsy. So they were worried about getting pulled over by the cops. And so they asked the junior enlisted to take the wheel. And she did. On base, they got pulled over by the cops.

She was breathalyzed. She was over the limit. She was arrestedhalyzed. She was over the limit. She was arrested for drunk driving. And then it turned out that she was also having a relationship with one of the junior officers. And because of the way they acted, they either risked or were going to get thrown out of weapons school. And I called you sort of after the fact and was like, so what happened? You were just sort of recounting the story to me. And it was what you said to them that stuck with me. Because any one of us who we have people who work with us that they're getting in big trouble, we would say things like, what were

you thinking? How stupid can you be? You've destroyed your career. You know, that's what we would say. And that's not what you said. You said, do you know how many people you've let down? You've let down your parents who believed in you. You let down your commanding officers who recommended you for this program. You framed all of it in service terms, because when you serve, the reward is what you give to others. But when you screw up, it's how much you hurt others. I cannot tell you how much that stuck with me. That's amazing.

It truly is how you feel. I mean, they're part of a tribe, a culture. And it wasn't, hey, what did you do to yourself? You have so many people that believed in you and put an investment into developing that level of trust. And look what happened. So I remember that vividly. It was a very unfortunate event, but more so because of the bond that was broken because of it. What ended up happening to the Meta Curiosity? Do you remember? One separated, became, I would say, pretty jaded because of the incident and because of the

trouble. One stayed in service, is still serving and really was like, I'm going to earn that trust back and is still serving right now. Good for him. Yeah. And the junior enlisted? She separated as well. Yeah. What I love about that story so much is that, you know, I think that our nation over the past many decades has over-indexed on this rugged individualism thing. It's like the Marlboro man really isn't the hero, you know? Yeah. And we've gotten away from service and serving the tribe and serving the community and serving the nation. It's all of those things. It's all become about our reward.

What do we get? Right. And what I love about this is that service, it keeps you in check, right? Yeah. Because you think about who else benefits from my work? Who else gets hurt from my decisions? Yeah. How did you learn that?

Did that come just because you joined the Air Force and you learned it from the Air Force? Or did that come from your upbringing? I would say a lot of it came from the Air Force. A lot of it came from the A-10 community. The A-10 is the aircraft you fly, the Warthog. Yeah, the A-10 Warthog. And when we're brought into that community, it is very ingrained into you early on. It's not about you.

Like that's the most common quote that we use throughout when you are like, man, that was a tough target to find, or that was a tough problem to work through and try and support the folks on the ground that you're tasked to support. The feedback that you always get from an instructor is, hey, it's not about you. It's about them. So focus on how you best support them. And to me, that's where that really starts to build in. And what's interesting to me is that's specific to the platform and the

aircraft that I flew. But across the Air Force, that's really the mindset of every community. Civil engineering is out there preparing runways, not for them, but it's so they can support the operations that are going on. Security forces are risking their lives defending the base, again, not for them, but so you can take care of your airmen and get the mission accomplished. And so that is brought into you very early, no matter what community you're in in the Air Force, in different ways, but we all have it in our DNA in some form or fashion. I've told this story publicly, but nobody knew that it was you, that when COVID started and emotions were all over the place, I called you and we had a very candid discussion about how to compartmentalize emotions under stress. In your case, what you learned about compartmentalizing emotion in combat.

And you gave me a very stern warning. You said, we can't. Maybe for a very short period of time, but everyone, you told me, everyone suffers the trauma of combat. Absolutely, yeah. Sometimes immediately and sometimes many months later. Yeah. And COVID is a trauma. And everyone will suffer the trauma of COVID at some point.

Yeah. And I remember calling up all my A-type personality friends who were all trying to pivot their businesses and pivot their careers. And everyone was in mission mode. Everyone was mission focused. No one was dealing with anything. And some people thought they had quote unquote beat it. In other words, they weren't going to suffer the trauma because they were so good to go. And I remember calling all of them and saying, I got this warning. You know, it's going to happen at some point. My friend told me it happens to him four or five months after he gets back from combat. And I made this group of friends make a deal that if we feel something,

we call each other. And I got calls because of that counsel you gave me. A couple friends, I'm thinking of one in particular who called me and said, I'm struggling. And she didn't go to her husband because he was struggling too. And she didn't want to burden him with it. Yeah. And she told him I'm calling Simon. And we talked every day. I think that's what I found amazing about the entire COVID-19 experience is it was as close to a deployed environment that I think you could almost get in the United States when you look at it. Not similar from the standpoint of combat, but just similar veins

of conditions where we're all under a shared experience, which is kind of like being deployed. You're like, hey, I'm over in the middle of nowhere. There's very harsh restrictions or things that we need to do, much like we saw with COVID. There's a life or death aspect to it. There's a lot of unknown associated with it. And it really kind of comes down to, okay, how do I get through today? how do I get through today? How do I get through the next day? And that's when I think you really believe and start to understand that compartmentalization to be able to do that occurs. Like I talked with you about, you got to come out of that at some point. You will come out of that at some point,

whether you want to or not. That's the lesson that I learned. It was tough for me coming back from my first couple of combat deployments because I didn't understand what was going on. I was like, man, I'm kind of disconnected. I'm dealing with a lot of stuff, but I don't know how I'm dealing with it. I didn't have the best habits or behaviors. And after you've gone through it a couple of times, then you kind of have the epiphany of like, oh, I see what's happening. Like, I understand what's going on. And so in COVID-19, you see something very similar where it's like, hey, a lot of people are going to experience these same things. And my concern when we talked is I don't know how many of them are ready for it. Because in

the military now, we're a little more oriented to know that experience will happen and to try and provide the support and those kinds of things necessary. But for the public at large, I hope everybody understands that they're probably going to have to go through the same series of emotions that we see in the military. Did you see that folks in uniform better able to cope with COVID because of the training that you received? Yes and no. I think what was most interesting and difficult was the military members themselves, I believe, had a framework because they had been in that environment before to deal and adapt, but their families and their spouses did not. And that was, I think, almost as tough was when you had a military member going like,

hey, I know how to deal with this, but I'm having trouble supporting my spouse who's going through this or my kids who are going through this. Is there anything that you learned from your training that you wish the general population either knew or knows now? I think what I took away from my training that the entire population could possibly apply during COVID-19, recognizing if you start to uncompartmentalize, if you will, and deal with that and you're either not ready for it or you weren't prepared for it. It doesn't happen on your timing. It's very difficult to understand when that's going to happen. And when you see those indicators, realize I need to talk to somebody. And talking to somebody is about 80% of the battle. Just having somebody that you can

connect with to share that experience with. And for the receiver of that phone call, most of the time, it's just being empathetic enough to go, okay, lay it on me. I'm going to listen and I'm just going to understand. It's not to provide the fix. It's not to provide the solution. It really is just to connect. And what I really take away and recommend is if that hasn't happened yet, realize it is going to happen at some point and try and get left of that and just precede it by forming those connections, having the discussion of what you've gone through. It will mitigate a lot of the trauma

that I think you may experience prior to hitting it. It underscores so many things about the importance of creating really strong bonds of love and friendship, deep, meaningful relationships. I've talked to so many young kids who've grown up in a very digital world, and they've said this to me, that they struggle to form deep, meaningful relationships. They have great fun with their friends,

but they wouldn't call their friends if they needed real help. It's fine and good if times are good, but it hurts me. I feel the pain because I know when something inevitably does go haywire, to not have a friend that you can pick up the phone and say, I need help. Yeah. You know, that's what's interesting is, again, when you look at the military in a deployed environment or a lot of the teams that we serve on, the relationships you form are close to an absurd level. Like the amount of detail and dirty laundry you know about another person. When you are deployed, you are with them 24-7 for six months or a year or however long that deployment is. And you really get to know the good, the bad, and the ugly.

But at the end of the day, you have that relationship formed. And the thing that may drive you crazy of just, I can't stand the fact that you drink the last cup of coffee and you won't make another pot, but I love you. That's the reconciliation that you have at the end of the day. When you look at the digital relationships, while there's a relationship there, that level of intimacy I don't think is inherent in it. And there's also a lot of nonverbal communication that you lose due to the digital nature of the communication that you, again, you see in an in-person relationship where your eyes on or you're noting like, hey, your shoulders are a little more slumped today. Is everything okay? But it's the good, the bad, and the ugly that comes

with that level of intimacy that I think allows you to be able to be vulnerable and say, I'm going through a lot of stuff right now. And I don't want to dig into all of it, but just so you know, I'm not doing okay. And then for the other half of the relationship to be like, you know, I'm here for you. It doesn't matter what time, it doesn't matter where, I'll be there. And that's what you get from a lot of those experiences. And I think why for a lot of military members, it's so tough to transition to the civilian sector because you lose that framework that's built into the culture. Every vet I've ever met, whether they loved the military, hated the military, regretted leaving, or couldn't wait to get out, every single one, to a T, misses the brotherhood and the sisterhood. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, we have colleagues and coworkers.

You have brothers and sisters. And those relationships are real. I mean, they are sibling relationships. Yes, absolutely. I think the military is so misunderstood with the culture of the militaries, and I've had the honor of getting to spend time with you and get to know you as a culture.

I've learned more about what it means to be human from folks in uniform than I did from anyone who ever wore a suit. I've hugged more people in uniform. I've cried with more people in uniform. That's one thing. Crying is totally fine. You know, it's not a sign of weakness. And there's this love and intimacy that exists, as you said. It's like, I love you for this. The word love is used a lot. Oh, yeah. I wish the private sector understood. They just think it's like from the movies, command and control and people issuing orders.

I'm like, yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. You know, it's like, it's not like that at all. It's a household full of brothers and sisters that love each other and hate each other, but will always be there for each other. Yeah, and I think the job is to get the mission done. other, but we'll always be there for each other. Yeah. And I think the job is to get the mission done. And that mission is something that's higher than yourself because you talk about the defense of the nation or our priorities or our interests. But at the end of the day, I mean, it really does come down to like, hey, I'm going to take care of you. Or that unwritten contract of like, I don't

know you at all, but I'll take a bullet for you because I know you do exactly the same thing for me. And that contract is just what we're brought up on. And that's why at the end of the day, you're like, hey, I've got my marching orders and my mission and those kinds of things. But primary job number one is to take care of you, whether I'm responsible for you or not. That's really what it boils down to. And if you think about the Congressional Medal of Honor, the highest medal in the land, sometimes the people who awarded that medal disobeyed an order or the mission failed. It's almost always because they were willing to sacrifice themselves to save

others. Is it because the job is life and death or do you think there's something there that can be transferred to private sector? Well, I think because the job is life and death, it does raise the stakes and it does make the importance of those contracts that much more solidified. But I also believe we do have a mechanism in place where you are, for lack of a better term, judged on how you take care of your team, how you take care of your people. It's very tough to go tell somebody to risk their life if they're like, I don't trust you. I don't feel like you do try and take care of me on a daily basis. So why am I going to go try and accomplish this mission where I may lose my life? And so within our culture, I think there is a lot where the ability to take care of each other, the ability to have that level of trust, the desire to say, not only do I want to take

care of the basic functions, but I want to help you be a better person. And that's why I serve. to take care of the basic functions, but I want to help you be a better person. And that's why I serve. At the end of the day, those are all things where we value that. And that's how we really look at the job that it is that we're doing. And if you're not doing the job or your values are not in line with that, we either provide feedback of like, hey, you need to adjust, or maybe it's time for you not to be here anymore. How do you evaluate each other based on how you take care of each other? Some of it is, I would say, qualitative or subjective. Just when you look at an organization or a team, is it healthy? Is it vibrant?

Does it have good morale? Some of it is a little more quantitative and putting in 360 degree feedbacks, providing more assessments, surveys where you can have that level. So it's a little bit of a balance of the both. It's very challenging. It's a tough thing to have a good pulse on, is a leader taking care of their team? Is it maybe more of a toxic environment where they're looking out for themselves and they're burning the team? But I would say that that is one of the top concerns of the organization overall is, hey, how do we ensure leaders are developing their personnel, taking care of their personnel,

and not doing things from a standpoint of either just trying to propel themselves or burning their team at the expense of just saying, hey, I'll get that mission done. It doesn't matter what I do to them. I would say there's a couple tools that are in place to help you do that, but a lot of it is qualitative of just your sense as you look at a team, you look at the dynamics and go, I've got a good leader here who's taking care of their people and making sure they're okay. It's nice to know that you haven't figured it all out because we're struggling with it in the civilian world. I think the big difference is the striving, which is, it goes back to that planning. It's a wheel in constant motion, a striving to figure it out, to improve it, to evaluate it all the time. Too often, I think, in private sector, especially in public companies, which is prioritizing the shareholder or the stock

price, even if it burns the team, is the priority. And the mechanisms to evaluate the team are secondary as long as we accomplish this arbitrary goal. Yeah, and I think for us, there's the primary objective of, hey, we got to accomplish the mission, whatever that is. But there's also an understanding of, I can't do that if I don't have a good, healthy, vibrant team to be able to allow us to do that. And I think there is a basic responsibility and understanding when you are a commander

in a leadership position of, I have a responsibility to care for these members. And not just from the standpoint of, hey, here's your next assignment, or here's your next opportunity, or maybe here's an educational opportunity for you. It's you, it's your family, it's your spouse, it's all those things together. How can I give you back better than I got you? And to me, those are my responsibilities as a commander and a leader right now is I need to ensure my team is ready for whatever it is they may face. And so if we were to go into combat and they look at themselves in the mirror and go, I'm not ready

for this, that's a failure on my part. That's primary job number one. They have to be ready for that. Right hand in hand with that is I need to take care of you as a person. I need to know that you're being developed. You're improving your leadership skills and tool set. You've developed and your family is well taken care of and I'm managing that talent because that is a responsibility as a leader, is to really care for the team that I have. I want to underscore that because that I think is such a profound statement, which is to give them back better than when you got them. For an employer to say, whether you stay in our company for a year or 10 years, that you will leave our company a better version of yourself than when you joined us

because of your time with us is an incredibly powerful standard. And I think is the standard that helps any leader understand what their fundamental responsibility is, which is how do I make you a better version of yourself and give you back in better shape than I found you? Yeah. And I truly believe that. I tell my team, one of the lessons that I've learned is it doesn't matter what your endeavor is. You'll always better serve that endeavor with leadership and an attitude of service. And again, it's not about me than than without that. And so, it doesn't matter what you're going to go do in life. You may transition to the civilian sector. You may decide you want

to be a stay-at-home parent. You may decide I want to be CEO someday. You may want to just decide that you're going to be chief of staff of the Air Force someday. Having those leadership skills and having a sense of this is bigger than myself and how do I give back is going to serve you throughout. So how do I help develop those qualities and provide you what you can use to go forth and conquer those things? And again, I look at that as my responsibility as a leader. And then on the commander side, it's the responsibility to go and, hey, as a team, we're all going to try and accomplish this mission together. What have you learned in the military that you've been able to translate as a parent? Because you've got three kids. I would say a lot of lessons learned primarily from the standpoint of that empathetic leadership, because my kids have had

to move around. They've had to deal with COVID just like I've seen other families deal with COVID. And I do the same in the flying community where I've been through experiences and I'll try and tell a young pilot like, hey, listen, this is where either I've been through experiences and I'll try and tell a young pilot, like, hey, listen, this is where either I messed up or something that I learned. I want to hand that to you so you can be better than I am. And I feel the same way with my kids. I'm constantly trying to provide the, hey, listen, I didn't do this so great. So take it from me, go in this direction, but still having and allowing the freedom for them to skim their knee here and there so that way they can learn from it as well. And really try and establish that relationship of I'm here to provide, again, the kind of

the framework of our culture as a family, but also I'm an instructor. I'm here to give you the lessons that I have and the hopes that you're better than me someday and you can make an impact and you can go. This is such a good lesson. better than me someday. And you can make an impact and you can go. This is such a good lesson. There are so many leaders out there who try and teach those on their team what they did right, so that you can learn to do it right also. And I think we do that with kids, right? Which is, I'm going to tell you how I did it right, so you can learn how to do it right also.

And what you're saying here is you're telling those on your team, you're telling your kids, let me tell you when I did it wrong, which I think is a nuanced but profound difference as the lesson learner. I mean, even for me, because I have such respect and admiration for you, that when you tell me the times you screw up, what it does is it makes me feel I can do this. I can work to that standard because he gets it wrong. But if all you did was tell me all this stuff you got right, I'd be like, I'm out. This is unrealistic. I think that's the two aspects of it. One, as you know, I graduated from the weapons school.

And for those that don't know, it's like the Air Force's version of Top Gun, only better. But our mantra there is humble, approachable, and credible. And I believe the humility part of it means a great deal. It's to say, hey, I'm not perfect. And I have messed things up, but I want you to learn from that. And I really believe that with my kids. And it also establishes a level of vulnerability where it's like, hey, you can see the real me. There's not a facade here. I'm not putting up this wall saying I'm 10 feet tall and perfect. I'm scarred up and I have no problem hugging those scars and saying, you know, this is what I've learned and where I am today. And I want you to benefit from that. And it's worth saying,

because I know this, there's a little detail that I know in living that humble, approachable, incredible mantra that you would never say what actually happened, which is you graduated number one. Yeah, well, I was very lucky, yeah. You're easy to embarrass. Yes, yeah. Because all I have to do is point out the stuff that you actually excelled at and it drives you nuts. It does, absolutely. I have a question for you.

I think one of the scariest moments for people in the military is when they make that transition to the civilian sector. And like we talked about, will they find something like they had in the military, that level of trust, that those friendships, those bonds, that camaraderie of brothers and sisters? Is that out there with what you've seen from corporate America or within companies? Is that magic ingredient anywhere to be found? I often

tell people like, I think we're going to have to create it. You know, when you make that transition, take it with you and create it wherever you are. There are precious few companies that have it. And one of the major differences is that, you know, companies very often say we're like a family, but they're not. Yeah. Because you can't ask family members to leave the organization. You don't ask, right? And in the military, because you sign contracts and because you're there,

the family bond can be actually made more real because you can't hire and fire people willy-nilly like you do in private sector. Yeah. And so private sector is more like a team. Sometimes players get cut. Yeah. It's much more like a team than a family.

That said, there are some of those teams that care about their teammates, that see their priority as building a great team and winning comes second, versus what too many coaches think, which is winning is the priority and team be damned. And so there are precious few companies that do have that same deep love and respect and camaraderie that you have. But I think you're right. I think folks who transition, they need to bring everything they've learned and build it. Regardless of how big their egos were in uniform and regardless of what rank they wore, there's this inherent insecurity that they bring to the private sector that I don't know your world. I don't have anything to offer. I used to fly this plane or work this electronic system that doesn't even exist in the private sector.

And so there's quote unquote, what am I going to do? And there's so much that folks in uniform know, whether they were in command or not, there's so much that they know about how to build friends, how to build brotherhood and sisterhood, how to create love, what the value of devotion to the person to the left and person to the right is to accomplishing the mission. It's not God and country. It's the people to the left of me and the people to the right of me that I risk my life. And though you won't have to risk your life, there may be some jobs that you may take that you will, but for the most part, you're not going to risk your life anymore, but you still have this incredible skillset and they don't talk about it. In an interview when they say, so what can you

bring to us, you know, after, you know, 10 years in the military? What do you need done? He's like, A, what do you need done? And B, I know how to be a team member and build a team that is willing to sacrifice their life for each other. And you don't even need that standard. And I do think that private sector benefits hugely when they have veterans on their teams, if the veterans recognize the strength that they bring and do not have an inferiority complex when they join. That's good feedback. It's not told enough to folks who are transitioning. The strength that they bring to private sector that just do not exist, those skill sets just desperately lacking. In fact, the reason I have

a career is because I'm trying to teach the private sector. I'm trying to share ideas with the private sector that I'm learning from the military. Every book I've ever written has at least one, if not multiple military stories. Yeah, that's incredible. It's just like the private sector has such a misunderstanding of you guys. I think you guys have such a misunderstanding of the private sector. They don't give you enough credit and you give them too much credit. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's valid. And that's based on my living with one foot in each. Yes. It's challenging. You know, it's again, I was thinking about it flying and the red flag mission I flew in yesterday and we come back to debrief and we're in this mass auditorium. They show up the whole mission and it's just filled with everything. Like there's a level of discipline that you're providing feedback on, on like, Hey, you didn't

make this time to the second. There's a lot of snarky and sarcastic comments flying around and poking fun at each other. There's a lot of dejection when you find you didn't quite win. And the level of teamwork and camaraderie is just amazing. When you find you didn't quite win. And the level of teamwork and camaraderie is just amazing. And I know from the standpoint of what I think military members want when they transition is they're looking for something like that. They're searching for it and don't know where to find it. It makes it very scary. The good news is I think the world is moving in that direction. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's going to get better.

Yeah. I love you, brother. I really do. do i love you too i love talking with you and for me to be able to give a glimpse to the world who you are and how you actually live your lives i was able to get through my trauma of covid because four or five months in right on schedule i was off my game badly and i didn't want to use the D word because I felt like it was a clinical diagnosis, but I was depressed. And because of the counsel you gave me that this was going to come, I was prepared. And the first thing I did was call and ask for help. And one of the people I called was you. And you saved me.

I'm very grateful to you. Well, you know I'm always, always here for you. Always. The feeling's mutual, brother. The feeling's mutual. I love you. I love you too, brother. If you enjoyed this podcast and you'd like to hear more,

please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.