A Geek History of Time - Episode 100 - Cardassian Jurisprudence Part II

Episode Date: April 3, 2021

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, This is a geek history of time. Where we connect Mercury to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. But you already know that. We've been doing this for a hundred episodes now. You know who I am. You know who my partner is, but tell him anyway. I'm Damien Harmon. I'm a Latin teacher up here in Northern California as well. And for one hundred episodes. Fifty of which we've done like this. Tell them anyway. I'm Damien Harmon, I'm a Latin teacher up here in Northern California as well and for 100 episodes 50 of which we've done like this. Yeah 50 of which we've done digitally. There's a remarkable symmetry to that isn't there? Yeah I didn't start this podcast thinking you know what halfway through we should have a plague

You know halfway through let's figure out a collusion way to keep doing this over over Skype while we're trying to make this work. And also while we're at it, let's find a way to to cause it. So it sounds like there's a weird lag in our conversation where when we're not talking over each other, there's these long awkward pauses, like we're trying to think real hard about what to say, which anybody who knows me knows that's not what's going on. Ed never thinks about what he has to say.

But, you know, the the the artifice of the technology made it made it sound that way. Oh, and then while we're at it, let's let's try to make it so that the audio quality goes to shit when we're recording at about 11.45 during our recording sessions. Every goddamn time like clockwork. You could actually set your clock according to that.

It's 11.45, PST, every single time at night. When you hear our recording, go shitty, that's what happened. I don't know who's ended it's on. I don't know what happened, but for a hundred episodes, we've been, we've been well for 50 episodes. 50 of those episodes while we're running into that. Yeah, while we were doing this over over a Skype connection, that's that's when the pause I talked about usually would start. Yeah would start when we'd have to turn our cameras off over Skype because like anything we can do to get the bit rate up like oh my god, how about we cut down on the amount of data we're sending downstream. And none of it fucking worked.

Like it's still suck balls. So yeah, very, very, very happy not to have to worry about that anymore. Now that we're back together in person, good to have that tool in the kit. Yes. You know, for those occasions, when one of us has a sick kid or one of us is, you know, actually contagious with something that we don't have a spread, you know, like, you know, the flu, the actual flu, not, not, like, you know, the flu, the actual flu, not, well, you know, it's death the flu. No, like, in flu, enzymes, that went out, you know, you know, for circumstances like that, you know, that's a great thing to do, but it's so nice.

It really is. To actually be in the same room recording this again. It's weird. I forgot how much that added to it for us. Yeah. At the same time, I, like I said before, this pandemic has killed my imagination completely. So like, when I found out that you and I were both double vaccinated, I didn't think to think that we could record in person. I think you'd actually broker that idea first. And then I was like, right,

that's a possibility. Shit, we could do that, man. Yeah. And the funny thing is, it was because initially, I had thought that my parents were going to be in from out of town. Yeah. And, you know, the only reason that can happen is because they're both fully vaccinated. Right. You know, and so I didn't want to be sitting in my living room, swearing up a storm like, you know, we do.

And have them only hear my half of the conversation as I'm going like, I'm not swearing up a storm like, you know, we do. And have them only hear my half of the conversation as I'm going like, I'm sorry, mother fucker said what? You know, while there upstairs in my son's room, you know, trying to go to sleep or trying to keep sleeping at one o'clock in the morning while we're recording, you know, I didn't want to be doing that. And so it was like, well, you know, are you cool if, you know, I come over and we record

in person? And you know, we're getting to this weird place like we're, like, starting to have these conversations because enough people are getting to a place where we're vaccinated that like it's a meaningful conversation about like, okay, well, you know, we know the guidelines are that we can do this, but like you're gonna be cool, right? Because we all have low grade PTSD. Oh, yeah, well, I'm what we've been going through. I'm if we don't have like higher grade PTSD. I mean, actually that we we stop calling it PTSD and start calling it DTSD. Okay, during, during traumatic stress disorder. Yeah, that kind of makes sense. Yeah.

But yes, you're absolutely right. Like, again, it has sucked any and all imagination. Like the new reality has been, well, let's find a way to do this from a distance. Yeah. You know, like for everything. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be going back into my classroom on April 12th. And, you know, we've, we've outside of recording time. We've, we've talked about this. But, you know, I'm having this weird kind of kind of ambivalence about it. Because on the one hand, I know I'm gonna be completely freaked out, like completely freaked out to be in a room with probably eight or nine kids at a time. After all the ones who are gonna stay home, make the decision to stay home,

and they cut the ones that are coming into my classroom, into two cohorts, so every one of my classes is basically cut in half after being cut in half. Right. But, you know, so I'm gonna have, you know, tops, like 10 kids in my room at a time. And, and I know just that number of kids in my room is gonna be enough for me to be like,

okay, all the windows are staying open. My door is staying wide open. I'm, you know, I'm wearing, you know, masks,, all the windows are staying open. My door is staying wide open. I'm wearing masks all the time. Can I get gloves? What can, you know, I'm gonna be in this state even though I'm vaccinated and I'm at full efficacy. But I know going into it that that's gonna be part of my emotional state. But the other part of my emotional state is gonna be like, oh my God, I get to go back to my fucking room.

Oh, I know. I am actually gonna get to interact with my students in person. I mean, it's still like methadone for a heroin addict. I'm not actually gonna get to see their whole faces. I'm not gonna be, big one for me. I didn't realize until I was actually thinking about like what teaching is gonna look like in the new order. But I'm not gonna be able to walk the room.

Yeah. Like I'm gonna be rooted at the front of the room. Sage on the stage. You know, yeah, like 100, and I'm guilty of sage on the stage more often know, yeah, like 100 and I'm guilty of sage on the stage more often than then like we are encouraged to be anyway. Oh, yeah, because I'm a performer at heart and that's that's my crack. But like there's no other option with kids are coming back into the room.

Now that's it, bro. You know, and it's all you get. It's gonna play havoc with like the remedial reading class I'm teaching is built specifically around the idea of having rotations where the kids spend part of the time working online, part of the time reading independently and part of the time in small group instruction.

And we can't do small group anything right now. So I mean yeah it's just gonna be weird but there's there there is this weird combination of and just like thinking about getting together with people in person there's this elation of like oh my god we don't have to do this through a video connection anymore and there's also this little bit of like well yeah we gotta be but we gotta be in the same room. Right, yeah, yeah. We kinda have to train back up to. Oh shit, man.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, no, but I'm right now with just two of us in here doing this. I'm like, no, no, no, this. Let's do it. There's a lot less ambivalence. There's a lot more, like, no, no, this. Hmm. Let's do it. There's a lot less ambivalence. There's a lot more like 100% positivity, yay. So yeah.

Yeah. No, I do not disagree with the thing that you said. Other than the fact that I'm not gonna go back until the fall. Yeah. I have found any number of avenues for me to not go back and I'm going to employ them all to ensure that I do not go back. Yeah redundancy is a is a plan up to it.

All it's own up to it, including having saved up for this possibility. Yeah. So it's tremendous privilege that I have that, you know, many of my colleagues don't, which is why I'm very active in the union to try to get as close to that for them as possible But there you go. Yeah, so last time we talked. Yes Back when we're in double-tidget episodes. Yeah, now that we've Assended no, no, we're across the Rubicon and triple digits. Oh nicely done. Thank you. Thank you So we talked about Rome, essentially,

but also talked about the Cardassians. More Roman than the Romulans. Yes. Yeah, the main antagonist for Deep Space Nine. Yes. So I want to come back to that. So I ended last episode talking about the trial of Horatius. Yes.

Didn't ask you then, going to ask you now, what were some of your takeaways from that whole thing? Specifically, the trial. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Number one, one of the things that I mentioned to my students pretty regularly, teaching world history, is that they need to keep in mind that what we call the threshold of violence in day to day life was infinitely lower in the time period that we're studying.

And I'm talking to them about a time period even later than this. talking to them about a time period even later than this. Now, admittedly, the change in threshold violence between the Bronze Age and the High Middle Ages is probably not as dramatic as the change from the High Middle Ages to now. Yeah, yeah. But still, the really shocking part of it was the the

frequency with which oh yeah, and then he killed him. Is just is just a thing and is just and is written down by Livy is just being like and you know, then he then he died from multiple stab wounds, like is just a thing that that leapt out at me, the extent to which what Heratius was put on trail for was shockingly violent to us, is shockingly violent to us. And was probably a bit of a shock to the Romans, but the fact that it wasn't shocking enough to the Romans for them to say, no man, the law is the law. Right.

You murdered your own sister in broad daylight. In front of the entire... In front of the gods and literally everybody. Just the reinforcing factor there of, no, no, we are talking about a very different society and a very different society and a very different conception of How stuff works

Number one is a big takeaway from there The other thing that I found interesting was The way you put it when you talked about the pair of judges. The do-emware? The do-emware. That their whole job was to find him guilty. Yes. That, and that wasn't the way you phrased it wasn't,

there wasn't any other verdict they could give because everybody saw him do it, like there was no ambiguity about whether or not he had done it, but their whole job was to find, like their role. It wasn't even so much about the fact that, no, no, we all saw him do it. Again, in broad daylight, shouting about it while he did it.

Like, but that finding him guilty was their job. Yeah. Like, the, the whole reason you get to do them where is to, as, as the source said, to pass judgment. Yes. That what's interesting about that from a legalistic standpoint is that it's not, it's not a trial. No.

It's a pronouncement. And there is a whole set of assumptions going into how justice works, going into what the role of the state is in justice. is in injustice. We have this concept in our legal system, the ideal that we put forward is that in the legal system, there needs to be an inquiry into, is this person guilty, is this person not? There has to be proof. The whole system is built around the idea that there is a back end fourth, and a burden of proof.

And a burden of proof, which is a whole other later, that's such a modern concept. I don't even wanna get into that when we're talking about the Romans. But yes, but here, we're not even talking about, we're not even talking about, we're not even getting to who has the burden of proof. It's nobody has a burden of proof. You're fucking guilty.

Yeah, you did it. Like, period, like, no, no, we have you. And I'm just, I'm thinking about it like, and the way this is phrased, this wasn't just like, okay, well, I'm gonna create this thing called to do them where for this case, in front of everybody, to give me cover for how still he used't just like, okay, well, I'm gonna create this thing called a Do-A-Mware for this case in front of everybody to give me cover for how still he is to go like, okay, no, I need somebody else to do this.

Right. Which he did, but the Do-A-Mware was an already extant institution that he made use of as opposed to just pulling it out of his ass like, well, I'm gonna take these two judges and you're gonna find him guilty for me. No, this was already a thing. Yeah.

And so like, okay, no, if you get caught, or rather, if you get hauled before the do-in-weir, whether you did it or not, you're guilty. The fact that we have brought you here means somebody has to pay for it and we have decided you here means somebody has to pay for it and we have decided you're gonna be the one to do it. I'm really glad that you picked up on all of that. And that is the role of the state in justice,

which makes it performative. Yes. Which, I mean, there's all kinds of debates. We can have, I mean, meaningfully that we can have about, you know, our own court system and how actually representative it actually is. I was gonna ask, did you wanna just fast forward to 1934 in Germany? Or the Soviet Union or China, you know, great leap forward.

Yeah, no, the, you know, it's, it's no coincidence that these kinds of models are the ones that Il Duce used when he came up with the system of atchism. Yes. You know, like building another Roman Empire. Yeah, awfully fashy. Well, yes, because Mussolini was the dude. So yeah. So yeah, that's interesting that you brought up. I'm going to capitalize a little bit on the performative part and then I'm going to unfold the rest of this, which is you played perfectly into it.

Well, so what I want to just pull apart a little bit more granularly, there is the part about it being performative. Most analyses of Roman religion was that it was not revealed but contractual. That the reason that we worship the gods is because that's the contract that we have with them to keep things going. And if we do our part, they're bound by that same contract to do their part. Now they

might add do it very well. Sometimes they might be wrathful if we forget our part, but if we do our part, they'll do their part. And therefore Roman religion itself by its very nature was also state religion. Yeah, The college of the priests and stuff like that was performative. If we perform these rights, these things happen. The formative, as the paralegal in the room, performative in a contractual sense, yes, performance of the contract. Yes. Not not.

I'm going to get up on stage and give you an interpretive dance. No, they literally had priests that did that well Yeah, I understand but they're being pleaded they were called the dancing priests of Mars Okay back up stop no wait, okay, hold on okay. I was totally right there with you Right there with you dancing priests got it. Okay dances. Yeah, think dancing priests of Mars. Yes The dancing priests of the God of War. I always just picture, so they would dance through the streets during certain festival days.

Yeah. And like in armor? No, not particularly. Sometimes. Okay. But I always pictured it as just being like, you remember the ending of Soul Train where they'd form two lines and people would dance down?

Yeah, that's what I have pictured. Okay. You know, in my mind it was, yeah. Might not be wrong, yeah, but how did that just, and I mean, I understand that my own concepts of masculinity and warrior-ness play into this. Sure. But to the Roman mindset, which by the way,

I don't think we can overstate how incredibly goddamn macho, Roman ideas of masculinity were, like to us massively toxic. There's, okay, so there's a little bit to it here. First off, they were called the salee. Okay, these are dancing priests. Saliere is to also to leap Okay, but it's also to dance Okay, they did dress up as archaic warriors. They did including like I believe a Spiked headdress. Okay, they the Apex. They also had, I want to say,

I want to say like a deep red tunic. And the thing is, this group of the dancing slash leaping priests of Mars, were they, how to put this, they had a bunch of like bronze shields. They had a lot of these things. And the king that came up with this was none other than Numa Pumpilius Okay He's he's the one that came up with the college of the place right? Yeah, yeah, he came up with the war priests dancing priests Okay, he had his wife. I think the goddess that he slept with the right Egeria. Yeah

He had her I believe he either had her engraved on the shield or he or because various accounts are, you know, vague, he either had her engraved on the 12 shields. Yeah. Or she had inspired him to make the 12 shields. I forget which. But either way the dancing priest of Rome

Okay, yeah of Mars Mars. Yes. Yes. So so very performative Yes on every level I've re-leveled well. Yes, okay, so huh. Yeah They did that weird. All right, so now back So now back to the other thing that you brought up was just, which absolutely perfectly plays into episode B of Cardassian jurisprudence and the trial of Horatius. So we had the trial of Horatius. Yes. Now let's go to the Cardassian jurisprudence.

In every single episode where the Kardashian courts are brought up, which in itself is an odd thing to develop, but it was the mid to late 90s. And we did spend an entire year watching the OJ trials. So yeah. And the Menenda's brothers. So yeah. Okay. So trials being a public thing. Yeah, it was was huge. It was a big deal to us. So um, you know, court TV started in in the way. I mean, really took all in the wake of that. Yeah. Uh, on a on a personal note,

On a personal note, I have an aunt who actually wound up on court TV. Oh wow. Not in a good way. For a deeply regrettable situation that turned into her face and criminal charges for something that we and family are, of course course convinced she was not responsible for. But it was very interesting to have the experience of seeing that what would normally be, like we and the family know about what's going on and you know we have these details about it but then seeing that plastered on on a national kind of media thing. Sure. Was really surreal. I bet. And you know and when you talk about courts being performative,

the moment we introduced, we as a society introduced cameras and the media into the trial environment. I genuinely think that trials that wound up being broadcast like that and covered like that. And the OJ trial being one of them in the Mnendez brothers trial being another one. The process itself was impacted by the fact that there was suddenly this audience. Sure. And yeah, so anyway. Okay, but that was in because of those things. Sure, sure.

That was now a new thing. I mean, now we're used to this being part of our our Paralyse and our media landscape, but when it was new like that, you know, the seeing that show up in the Zitgeist shouldn't necessarily in retrospect shouldn't be surprising. Yeah. Yeah. I would say though that, you know, you had radios showing up in trials as far back as the

30s. Now they would report after the fact. Yeah. But even that in itself changed the trial situation since you're not just playing to 12 now. No, you know. And you're not just playing to the people who literally lived on the street from you. Yeah.

You're playing to... Strayers. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I don't necessarily know that that's bad or good. I know that that is a shift. Yeah. But in every episode where the Cardassian courts are brought up, the verdict is rendered prior to the trial.

Okay. The trial therefore is an opportunity for the state to show the people that justice triumphs over evil every time. Specifically, that quote was used. The state is benevolent and wise and just and its traders will be dealt with harshly and swiftly. Okay, yeah, yeah, there we go. Specifically, season two, episode 25 of Deep Space 9, Chief O'Brien is put on trial for sabotage. The arresting officer, Gull Avek, informs a Brian that, quote,

you have the right to refuse to answer questions, but such refusal may be construed as a sign of guilt. Avek informs him to which Miles demands to know what the charges are. Avek asks Miles if he would like to deny all knowledge of the crime. When Miles again asks what the crime is, Avec interprets his response as a no.

At no time as O'Brien ever informed of his charges, the charges against chief O'Brien are not to be revealed, pardon me, at the trial as per Cardassian jurisprudence. Now, under the articles of Cardassian jurisprudence, an officer would caution the individual being arrested that quote, you have the right to refuse to answer questions, but such refusal may be construed as a sign of guilt. So it's their version of Miranda.

The document also allowed the arrest of a suspect without informing him of the crime he was accused of. It also provided for spouses of the accused to disassociate themselves from the accused by testifying against them. Okay, which ties in with what we've already heard about Cardassians and loyalty. That state above all, even though family is all.

Yeah. Cardassian trials were for show as the verdict and sentence had already been determined in advance and there was no appeals process. So so far, Miles O'Brien is actually getting full due process under Cardassian law. The point. In fact, yes, state.

Yes, you know, yes. But their following couldn't be anymore overt. Then yeah, they're following procedure. Whoa. Yeah. The point of a card, as you were only following orders. The point of a card, asian trial isn't to reach the verdict. The verdict has already been reached. The trial is to demonstrate how it was reached.

Showing your work. Yeah. Wow. O'Brien has already been scheduled for execution the following week. He is assigned a conservator, which is a type of lawyer, whom advisor named Kovat. His conservator is there simply to help the accused to concede to the wisdom of the state. The conservator asks so Brian if he wants to confess, and so far, O'Brien still doesn't know what he's on trial for.

But it's not for O'Brien to confess. It is for the public's faith in the state for him to confess. Hearing the guilty confess makes the public feel better, and while such is not the primary purpose of the trial, the conservator points out that it is not a bad side effect. So whatever O'Brien may or may not have done, the conservator reassures him that it does not matter in the long run. Quote, the purpose of this trial is to demonstrate the futility of behavior, contrary to good order. He says, and he calls the entire process uplifting for everyone.

Does that include the one being disintegrated a week from now? Well, there's that. Covatt, it enthusiastically describes how all crimes are solved on Cardassia, and even the poorest of the poor can walk the streets in the dead of night safely. Yeah. Well, the poorest of the poor don't have anything to get robbed for. There's also that. You know, it's going to say, well, that's, and this know, yeah, I'm gonna say Well, yeah, that's and this guy cova. That's a true believer. Oh, he's that okay his whole career is based on this Jesus

He's essentially he is you gotta keep in mind. He is their version of a lawyer, right? Yeah, the defense. He's never won He's not supposed to. Well, yeah, because because the system works, right? Because like nobody gets arrested who didn't do it, right? Like, I mean, come on. O'Brien informs Kovat that he is not guilty. And he holds the entire process and contempt and attitude that Kovat claims will put on a good show. But before Kovat leaves, O'Brien asks if he's ever one a case.

And he says, well, winning isn't everything. And he walks away. As the a Jesus meter, it's 9,000. Yeah, oh Jesus. Yeah When the execution is to take place the Cardassians have invited O'Brien's wife Keko to it as families are always invited to trials and executions so the public can see them weep Fuck now what I love there is and I might have Gone into it a little bit earlier or a little bit later here as well but I want to bring it up here. Roman trials, if you're a defendant and a Roman trial, I don't care how rich you are, you show up in rags with your hair fucked up. Oh yeah. Yeah, you show up pretending to have been agonizing over this thing no matter how innocent or guilty you are no matter

how rich or poor you are, you show up like that. It's very performative. Yeah. And it brings me back to the Nendez brothers. Remember how they dressed them up and those nice sweaters and softener. Oh, I made them all look. Yeah. Then you look at their eyes and you're like, no, no. Yeah. And then you realize that one woman married one of them while he was in prison having been found guilty. And it's like,

married one of them while he was in prison having been found guilty. And it's like, monkeys be crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My my my fellow primates are not. Okay. So the whole trial is there for show. And when new evidence comes to light, it's not allowed. No evidence. Wow. Maybe submitted after the verdict has been reached and since the verdict was reached ahead of the trial. Wolf. So you're yeah you're you're fucked yeah I've arrested you. Kiss your family goodbye. Yeah. Oh yeah. Wow. Now here's how the trial begins. Quote. The offender Miles O'Brien, human officer of the Federation Starfleet, has been found guilty of aiding and abetting seditious acts against

the state. The sentence is death. Let the trial begin. And quote, which which is, you know, taken from we have these guys, uh huh, and they're going to pronounce, they're going to pronounce judgment. This isn't about finding whether you're guilty or not. You are. This is about justice.

Try and think over evil. Well. Cardassians are space Romans and their jurisprudence is clearly lifted from the trial of Heratius' doom-weir structure. Yeah. Cardassians are defined by their militarism, their inherent suspicion of outsiders, and their penchant for duplicitousness, and strategic maneuvering. Indeed, for Cardassia, the only instrument that can ensure order and security

is a strong nation-state bound by common purpose, force of arms, and an unwavering sense of right and wrong that can ward off its enemies both internal and external. This is fully shown during hostilius's reign. And when Livy set out to write the whole of the history of Rome, in which the trial of Heratius can be found best, it was partly to act as a moral guide to Romans, Livy's prologue states, quote, it is the privilege of antiquity to mingle divine things with human and so to add dignity to the beginnings of cities. And if any people ought to be allowed to consecrate their origins and refer to them, refer them to a divine source. And so great a military is so great is the military glory of the Roman people.

That when they profess that their father and their father of their father of their founder was none other than Mars, the nations of the earth may well submit to this also with as good as grace as they may submit to Rome's dominion. But to such legends as these, however they shall be regarded and judged, I shall for my own part attach no great importance. Here are the questions which to which I would have every reader give his close attention. What life and morals were like? Through what men and what by what policies in peace and war, Empire was established and enlarged, and let him note how, with the gradual relaxation of

discipline, Moral's first gave way, as it were, and then sank lower and lower and finally began to downward plunge, which has brought us to the present time, when we can endure neither our voices nor their cures. What chiefly makes the study of history wholesome and profitable is this, that you behold the lessons of every kind of experience set forth on a conscious monument, or on a conspicuous monument, from these you may choose for yourself and for your own state what to imitate, from these mark for avoidance what is shameful in the conception and shameful in the result. For the rest, either love of the task, either love of the task that I have set myself deceived me, or no state was ever greater.

None more righteous or richer in good examples, none ever, was where Averis and Luxury came into the social order so late. Which I love the inevitability of that. Or where humble means and thrift were so highly esteemed and so long held in honor. For true it is that the less men's wealth was, the less their greed. Of late riches have brought in, averse, and excessive pleasures, the longing to carry wantonness and license to the point of ruin for oneself and of universal destruction.

As you can see, the state is the highest good. It is the thing that keeps them from degenerating, like you said, into the wolves of the fields. Now, just like the Romans, Cardassians were driven by conquest. The show's treatment of the Bajorans originally starts out as a very non-New Anst, non-New Anst, nuanced, and clumsy allegory for the Jews under Rome, but then it quickly becomes the Palestinians under Israel in the 80s and in the 90s. Yeah. So. Yeah, which is an interesting shift. What I find interesting in the quote from Livy there is, you know, that's a theme from chroniclers and historians that starts with him and he's kind of the father of the discipline of history in many ways. But we see the same thing in Chronicles from millennia later.

Yes. You know, there's always this, you know, look, look at how badly our society has fallen. Look at the degeneracy of our current state. Like, you know, in, in, in Saxon, England, before, yeah, before, well, before the Norman conquest, but I don't remember whether it was before or after the, the great heath and army before the Vikings showed up. You know, writers talked about the chroniclers of the time, lamented how effeminate the men and the young men of the court of the Saxon kingdoms was, that they were, you know, they wore a ruse

and makeup and all that stuff. And they're hair long. And, you know, they're just not virile anymore. And it's the same, you know, look at the dissipation of our culture. And then on a more, I don't know, fatalistic, is the right word. But, and I'm forgetting the name of the scroll, but it's one of the famous stories of Samurai history

opens with this beautiful haunting kind of poem about how, you know, the bells at the temple of the Honganji, and I'm trying to remember that it's not the name of the temple. I can't remember off top of my head. You know, reminds one of the impermanence of all things. You know, we live in the fallen world, you know, where we're in light and where we cannot reach enlightenment within our own lifetimes. You know, it's, there's always this idea that the world we're living in right now, until very, very moderately. There was always in any kind of historical chronicle. There was always this idea that everybody back then knew what they were doing. Yeah. And it was so much better back then.

And they were just so much more moral back then. And now, especially that moral car. Yeah. And now we're living in this age of dissolution and decay. And it's interesting that, I mean, of course, we still have those voices saying the same thing about our society right now compared to, you know, the 50s, but our, the, that is, that is no longer the dominant ideal of historians. Right. You know, historians look at it and you're like, of historians. Right.

You know, historians look at it and you're like, we have antibiotics. And vaccines and water treatment. Yeah. And like the ability to access the accumulated knowledge of literally all of human history, we have it so good, guys. Like, come on.

This is better. This is better. Like, you know, it's just it's it it it strikes me as you as you read, Livy, lamenting about, you know, we did such a good job in the good old days. And we as Romans are superior because we held out against the licentiousness in the greed for so long. But as you say, the inevitability of it is just a given to him. And yeah.

And then holding up, holding up as an example of morality, this... The duumware. The duumware, which... Like I can't say this fascist model because fascism doesn't get invented right for another 2000 plus years. Yes, like from the time Livy was writing but like To to a to a modern 21st century reader you hear about Horatius's trial and about Stilius saying

All right, I need to find a way to make this work so I can pardon him, but still uphold the law. Like, how fascist the fuck is that? Yeah, like, oh my God. And of course, the reason is because that's the model, as we already said, that's the model Mussolini was working for us. Exactly. But like that's the moral example you want to give

yeah like to to a modern to a modern sensibility and again this goes back to think about threshold of violence to a modern sensibility that's just nut bar. It it it is but like it's lunatic but we're not talking about a modern sensibility. We're talking about the Bronze Age Well, and Livy, I mean he said other things in his preface too. It's it's the hardest thing that he writes for translation purposes Okay, like I could believe the preface is from the phraseology. Yeah, oh my god I hated translating his preface. I love translating every book thereafter from him. Okay.

But he also says that, I mean, he does the fake humility thing, but he also in his preface, he says that he hopes that we will draw our moral lessons from those people and that that was a time in which men were men and sheep were scared. Well, that too, but where what was it? It was a time where, oh, man, you threw me off there. Sorry. It's okay. It's all right. No, I'm really glad. Yeah, I'm going to be made. Sure, sure. And I can't wait for a funny one. But, you know, but you know, on the 200th episode, that's where I'm going to be.

Really looking forward to that. That's when you're going to be a joke. No, so he's saying that it was a time when I'm getting flipped off. I do miss being a person. Yeah, but in the other word, in the same room. But no, he said, you know, there was a time where people lived closer to the earth. They lived closer to their morality and then,

I'm sorry, as a modern listener, Livy, who was writing this witch century. Same time as Augustus. Okay. So 700 years after the ship that we're talking about. Okay, so, so near, near year one, 80. Hearing him in that time period, talk about, you know, people used to live closer to the earth. Like, do you, people used to live closer to the earth. Like,

do you? Like, how far from the earth are you? He had stairs. Oh, okay. Okay. That's okay. Yeah. Like, you know, it just there were buildings that had stories to them. It wasn't just earthen ramps up to a temple at the top of a hill. All right. Wow. All right. You know, but he also said that it was our, um, our luxury and our wealth that ruined Rome's morality.

Yeah. And with, uh, with wealth comes rot rot essentially. And what I love about that. That is the right volleyball. Right. You know, what I love about that though is that he is saying what so many regressives say now. Oh, yeah. Um, but what we're not hearing it from is historians anymore who are worth their salt because specifically I think of the GI Bill. Because once black and brown faces got to go to college too and study in academia and become historians, they started bringing other stories and history shifted from what lessons

can we learn from the past in terms of aspirational to what lessons can we learn from the past in terms of aspirational to what lessons can we learn from the past in terms of fixing. Yeah. And there's a difference. Now back to the Cardassians, they were driven by conquest just like the Romans were, right? And like I said, they, the show had them as having just given up the concentration camps of pejorins. Like, that's like episode one and two of Season One.

Yeah. And that was really heavy. It was. Like as an introduction to a brand new Star Trek series, you're like, wow, okay. Yeah, I liked it. I liked it. Oh, yeah, well, yeah. I mean it. I like it. Yeah. Once they found their feet. The part. Yeah. Once once it was about season two. You did well. They found me. Yeah. They found him. Yeah. Star Trek terminology. Yeah. But they were a clumsy

allegory. Like I said, for the Jews under Rome, but then they became the Palestinians under Israel during the 80s and 90s. Will UN, a Trek enthusiast, a fellow podcaster and the author of the 2015 article, a mirror for humanity, why the Kardashians are Trek's best alien race, he pointed out that producers Michael Piller and Rick Burman at the time had said, quote, the Bajorans are the PLO, but they're also the Kurds, the Jews, and the American Indians. They are any racially bound group of people who have been deprived of their home by a powerful force. Okay. So your producers are saying that. Your creators are saying that. In the mid 90s, Israel was in a transition in its struggle with how to address the issue of apartheid in its own state. Yeah.

Yitzhak Rabin was of a more peaceful bend than was his predecessor Perez. And as such, the bejorans were more of an amalgam of several groups per what the producers had said. The Kardashians simply and broadly are the more realistic version of what the producers had said, the Cardassians, simply and broadly, are the more realistic version of what the Romans were. Casting the Bajorans in the role of the Jews, whom they conquered during the Empire. That our own culture lionizes and white washes the Roman Empire is pretty telling. And Will Neuens says, quote, as we ourselves have witnessed, the appeal of patriotism, self pride, the rule of law,

the security of order, and the desire for collective good are all powerful and beneficial motivators. But they can also be corrupted, manipulated, and exploited to justify unspeakable acts in the name of ensuring and preserving those very same things. Yes. Okay. Now, some people look to sci-fi for their lessons, right?

As many can look to the Kardashians to see ourselves from the past four years. Frankly more than that. Yeah. Because New End was writing that in 2015. That was under Obama. Yeah. And under Obama, we, I mean, one of the reasons that the Trump administration was able to get away with rhetorically so much of its fuckery was because they said, well, Obama did it.

Yeah. And they were not wrong. Yeah. And now, current president, Joe Biden is doing it. And they're not wrong. Yeah. And he's changing the words to things and that's about it. Yeah.

Now, having said that, I have also seen a lot of movement toward shifting things and I'm hopeful that that is a way of processing our way out of this. With all due haste, please, though. But, in the last four years, the, how to put, four years, the, how to put, um, the people who cheered it on. Yeah. Because I, I don't recall, I don't recall Obama supporters cheering on kids and cages. No, cheering on mass deportations. No cheering on mass deportations. No, I recall Obama supporters winsing

and still finding mental gymnastics. Yeah, finding ways to deflect or try to, try to weasel word. Yeah. What are you gonna do? Right right. Like it was it was it was something that was It wasn't anything Obama supporters liked but it was something that that they did they they accepted. Yeah. Whereas the the real hardcore base of Trump's support wanted that shit. Yeah. Like that was the point. Yes. He's not hurting who he's supposed to. He's not hurting people. Yeah. He's not hurting the right people.

Now, I think in some ways that's a distinction without a difference. No, yeah. Yeah, but I think it goes to the core, some of the core differences in ideology. I mean, the impact is not different, but the vector of what, where that can lead and how fast. And whether or not you can come back from it and in what way you can.

Yeah. Yeah. So those people who cheered it on made a hell of a deal with the devil to assuage their bruised egos as a culture. Yeah. Yeah. So those people who cheered it on made a hell of a deal with the devil to assuage their bruised egos as a culture. This will be its own episode at some point about how the Cardassians treat the pejorans. I couldn't talk about them without talking about that. That would be weird. But largely I was just looking at this one small thing of jurisprudence because it was

so clearly an echo. Now others, some people look to sci-fi further lessons, others look to history further lessons. The state as the ultimate goal leads to its own injustices as we saw under Tulis hostiles' reign. The excuse of personal injustice because the people demand it. As seen in the trial of Horatius and the continuation of traditions that are ultimately harmful to large swaths of our society, like we just said.

Yeah. But I think that I found a sweet spot here because when sci-fi looks to history to teach us history's lessons, that's when you've caught lightning in a bottle. Okay. Unfortunately, Miles O'Brien has to suffer through all of it That's when you've caught lightning in a bottle. Okay. Unfortunately, Miles O'Brien has to suffer through all of it because that is kind of the

point of the producers was every season was how can I torture Miles O'Brien? How can we screw over Miles O'Brien? Yeah, what? Yeah, he really was kind of the butt monkey. Yeah, no, every season was, we're going gonna try to drive miles of Brian Crazy for an episode. Yeah. That was a goal. Yeah.

And in this case, it was the trial of Tula's hostilus. Yeah. Well, it was the trial under Tula's hostilus of Hortius. Yeah. So, there you go. That is it. Wow. Yeah.

Episode 100. There we go. Look at that. That's awesome. Yeah. Episode 100. In the beginning. There we go. Look at that. That's awesome. Yeah. Got that done.

So per our tradition, 100 episodes long. Yeah. Ed, what have you gleaned? That when you establish a standard or establish a traditional or establish a system, you better really make sure you've established it based on the right things because you never know how far forward in history that's going to wind up going. You know, on a very prosaic level, you know, there's a meme that goes around every so often that's about, you know, the width of a standard road in the United States is based on the width of a railroad track.

Width of a railroad track is based on the length of a wagon axle Which is based on You know Roman roads, which were based on the width of two horses asses because that's what pulled a chariot Yes, and like So you know keep in mind when you establish a standard for something It usually goes around amongst you know programmers and tech people. It's like when you establish a standard for something, know how long it's gonna last. I think it's equally applicable to, when you are setting a precedent

for how you wanna have something work in a society. You need to be really careful about that because it establishes the tone and the language and the whole outlook. Because people are going to make assumptions a century from now based on, well this is the way we've always done it. Yeah. And it's gonna wind up getting absorbed into the wallpaper until some historian 500 years from now goes,

hey, wait a minute. Right. Let's really look at this. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna wind up in a situation where somebody's gonna go, I'm sorry, that's fucking nuts. Mm-hmm. Like, I was just doing with the whole system of, well okay no, our whole job is to pass

judgment on you because you're here, so you're guilty. And so many things get built off of that. Oh yeah. That, that, that. Yeah, yeah. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,point to that was the Germanic tradition of, no, no, we're gonna hold you in front of a group of your peers and you're gonna tell your story and they're gonna decide whether they think

you did it or not. Right. You know, because that's a tribal, you know, barbarian, German system as opposed to the Roman, no, no, we need to have this authoritative state. You know, it's more communal as opposed to the Roman. No, no, we need to have this authoritative state. You know, it's more communal as opposed to top down. Yep. You know, and that's the counter force.

Was another group of incredibly violent people with their own set of, by the way, this is a really low threshold of violence, kind of rules and traditions involved. Like, wow. Yeah. I mean, eventually with the Germans, you had the wear guilt. Yeah. You know, because you're going to pay money instead of killing them. Right. So pay up. Yeah. Yeah. Or you're going to pay money instead of getting killed. Yeah. That way we don't have a blood feud last year in generations.

Literally generations, which didn't stop the Scots from bringing that tradition over to the United States. No, hash fields and McCoy's. Or anything like that at all. So yeah, but, okay, yeah, no. It's seeing the depth of the echo. Ooh, I like that is I like that is illuminating. Yeah, in a really big way Yeah, and just the absurdity of well, no, you're here because you're guilty

You really did look on the right kind of data is like It's Kafka Kafka. Yeah, Kafka, yeah. I went to Dada, but I meant Kafka. Yeah, yeah. I mean, either one could apply, it's because surrealism, but yeah, Kafka is kind of, wait. Like I picture that whole, like I don't remember that episode of the show, but I picture it all being filmed with like a camera angle from way down low, staring up at, you know, everybody, or we are weird, we are the weak anglers from

the corners of the room. They're warm and, yeah, no, they think of our sliding angles. Yes, and just like playing up the, you're in the twilight zone. You think you're watching Star Trek, but you're in the twilight zone right now. Yeah, it is. And, and O'Brien's hair is increasingly crazy. Well, it's already a curly man's. It's already, yeah.

But like, they did, they took, they picked out his fro as it were. Yeah. So that he seemed a little extra harried. Well, yeah. So the guy we're sympathizing with is falling apart. Yeah. Because every season we have to drive O'Brien's crazy.

Yeah, absolutely. season we have to drive O'Brien is crazy. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool. Cool. So that's a I first off, thank you for for hanging with that. That is as niche as I've gotten. Yeah, I think. Yeah, because even even when I discussed Uber Roy, it was in the context of the far side, which everybody's fucking read. Yeah. But everybody our age. Yeah side, which everybody's fucking read. Yeah. But everybody our age, yeah, true, true. It has read. But yeah, but I don't know, man, we've done a hundred episodes of this.

Yeah. That's that's nuts. It kind of is. So kind of is any anything you've leaned after a hundred episodes. After a hundred episodes of doing this. Yeah. Wow. In the aggregate, I think the biggest thing

that I have gotten out of what we have done is that everything that we view or listen to or produce or read the stories that we tell in the media that we create, especially, I'm going to say especially in genre, whether that genre is wrestling or that genre is science fiction or fantasy or whatever. All are operating within a cycle with the zitgeist. They come out of the zitgeist and then they feed into it and steer it one way or another and and then and then spin back out of it in a in a cycle. And I mean anybody who has you know

done media studies or done you know sociology or anything like that would hear me say that and be like, well, yeah, I had. But the illustration of that over the course of the last 100 episodes, and when we've gone into deep dives like, you know, on fucking Batman for 10 fucking episodes, by the way, folks, if you're hoping for us to do any kind of detail about Batman you're gonna be waiting a while because like we we spent a long time on it. I mean inevitably we're probably gonna have to come back to something but it's not yet. But you know, seeing that idea reinforced kind of over and over and over again, and when we've looked at something in depth, having that become as obvious as it has become.

And the kinds of things, you know, talking about Bafa Bafa and cultural assumptions. Sure. You know, suddenly realizing that, okay, wait, this whole thing is built around this particular cultural assumption. You know, this is something that, you know, the writers weren't even actually really consciously trying to point out, but now that we look at it, it's like how do you not see that? You know Yeah, I think I think that's the most powerful thing is is the understanding that We are the masters of the zit guys in aggregate and we are also kind of it slaves. Yeah, you know

How about you what what is your Take away over last hundred episodes of doing this. Oh, let's see. I guess the first thing would be how presentest both of us are. Oh yeah, well. Yeah, despite the fact that we're historians yeah that would be that would be one another would be I guess I

learned more about us in some ways than I did about the topics okay you know the topics were were a fun vehicle yeah to this through. But you and I, I always say we've gotten to be much closer as friends through this and that's been cool. Yeah. I've actually surprised myself that I'm able to figure out technological stuff. Like, I mean, granted you it took me 45 minutes tonight,

but you got it done. I did, you know, instead of saying, okay, call me from downstairs. Yeah. On your phone. But no, we figured out how to get to Mike's operating together. Who knows, maybe we reinvented that wheel after, but you just were George figured it out, you know, forever ago. Years ago, yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, just the amount of fun that a lot of research is, I here's the thing that I used to say and I think we've proven that the any clown can teach the deepest lesson. Okay. Any subject that we have looked at can absolutely be a mirror for our society and for ourselves. And I really like that. Yeah, and I think the corollary I'd add to that is the act of viewing it in the mirror affects

both you for having viewed it and the image that you get out of the mirror. The very fact that you were taking the time to examine it and pull it apart, altars or effects, the image that you get out of it. Yeah. You know. And yeah, the part about us both being more presentest than we thought is definitely a thing. And you know, the extent to which I have over the course of us doing this, examined my own baggage is I think, I mean, looking back over it.

This has been a process of me in a couple of notable examples, actually having to wrestle with my own preconceived notions. Like the episode about it works, which you have come back to this several times in conversation about like that, you know, you really, you really think that that was a great app. And I'm very glad of that. But, you know, you really think that that was, that was a great up. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm very glad of that. Uh, but, you know, for me, there, that came from a place. I mean, that actually started out from a place where my reaction was like, okay, wait, there are orcs. Like why?

Why are we having this conversation about like, why do we have to have orcs or people too? They're fucking orcs? Right and then you know Taking the time to look at it and think about it like okay kind of see why yeah, okay. Yeah, there's there's some problematic shit going on there Well dammit, you know and finally coming around to be like no No, right. The whole idea of a whole species of humanoid being just inherently evil is not cool.

Like we gotta talk about that. Yeah, you know, the implications of that are big enough that maybe we ought to have a conversation. Mm-hmm. You know, and I'll admit, there was some reluctance to admitting that. Like it was it was actually like, well, shit, it's the right thing to do. But God damn it. Because that was in a Buddhist sense that was having to let go of the ego Yeah, like this this this is a thing that is part of these pet memories of mine

You know, they're gonna move on from and and you know, I think it's been it's been beneficial for me I think it's it's made me a better teacher Outside of doing this podcast because it has taken my intellectual, my sense of intellectual honesty. And from there, it has turned into forcing me to apply that to working to be more empathetic as an instructor and look at, no, let's really look at the implications of not only what's in the curriculum but like how are we going to approach it and how are we gonna teach it? And, I mean, I tried to do that before, but looking at these issues the way we have looked at them has broadened my view of all of these things

and has pushed me to be more direct when I'm talking with the kids about issues in history. Like a conversation I wound up having with a friend of the show Bishop O'Connell the other day. We're recording this a couple of days after St. Patrick's Day for reference. In a conversation I wound up having with him drove me to actually change my lesson plan for the day. In a way that I don't think I would have been, I don't think I would have felt like it was safe for me to change it to before you and I had started doing what we've done here. I wound up talking about diaspora and talking about the Irish experience with the potato famine and then coming to America and then said, this

is one of, you know, three principal diaspora in American history. And the other two are the Jewish diaspora, which actually dates back to Babylon. Right. And which, you know, it isn't what I want to talk about today, but it's important for you to know that. And then the other one is the African diaspora. And the big difference between them is, the Irish came here out of a set of circumstances

that were tragic, but they all, somebody involved made a choice. Yes. That either they were gonna come over because they were young and strong and capable of it, or they were gonna send their kid because they wanted their kid to get away. There was a choice made.

And in the African diaspora, they were not allowed to make a choice. They came over literally in chains. That was the way I said it to the kids. They came over literally in chains. We're not giving a choice. And then when they got here, we don't have an African American version of St. Patrick's Day because their culture was stolen from them when they got here. And we're not allowed to hold onto that. And like two years ago, I would not have been radicalized

to the point of where I would have been comfortable being that blunt about it. But like, no, the things that we've talked about here and the lessons that we've taken out of, out of our geeky culture and the analysis that we've done has made me a lot more comfortable actually just being blunt about it. Nice. And so I think that's a big thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think first off, it's just been fun to research all these things. But I also think that it's been largely instructive of a kind of a zoom in and then zoom back out kind of approach to looking at things. And the interconnectedness of the times in which the things happen. And I've spoken to this on the podcast a couple times, the tremendous amount of non-innovate ability that history has in it. Oh yeah. But also the tremendous amount of course, like we talked about just tonight,

like within the first sentence, I, you know, because I read off of some research that I thought, right? Yeah, yeah. After the first sentence, I was like, well of course, there were several episodes dealing with Cardassian jurisprudence.

Look at what else was happening in the 90s where we had TV court stuff. And we had four or five minutes on that. And just the looking at a culture from that aspect constantly, like what's happening at that time, sometimes I'll go, 80 years to get to it. And sometimes, you know, I'll just, you know, speak within it. But I think that goes all the way back to our very first episode on C-C-E.

Yeah, no, usually. C-C-A, rather. But, yeah, I think, I think, when I start teaching history more, the more I can pull into that, the better. But yeah, that's, I think that's enough for me for now. So all right, well, after a hundred episodes, where can people find you? They can find me at EH Blalock on the Twitter machine. They can find me at Mr. Blalock on TikTok,

EH Blalock on Instagram, and Mr. Blalock on Instagram, two separate accounts. Look for both of them. One of them, one of them my students are able to view and the other one they're not. There's not a whole lot of difference right now, but one of them actually has photos of my son and the other does not. I'll leave it to you, which one my students can do. I'll leave it to you or rather I'll leave it to you to guess. And they can find both of us collectively at Geek History Time on Twitter. And where can they find you? You can find me at duh harmony, two ages in the middle,

on Twitter and the Instagram. If you have any questions or comments or subjects that you want us to kind of look at, feel free. Had a lovely conversation with a follower, a watcher or a listener of our podcast. I was gonna say a watcher. I got a camera in here, like wait. No, we have to turn those off,

so we had a level of 45. No, we have to turn those off. So they had a level 45. Yeah, because you know, yeah. But I had a lovely conversation about that about the implicit bias that we both have viewing things through an American lens when it came to the... Yes. That's true.

...the edition wars. But you can find me there as some have a da harmony on Twitter and Instagram. You can also find me every Tuesday night at Capital Punishment on Twitch.tv forward slash Capital Puns. And you can also find me, let's see what else. Oh yes, I've started a podcast which hasn't started dropping yet but podcast and video show on Excelsior Gaming. It's the one that has the stitcher from Marvel Strike Force on it so that's the one. So myself and Ian McDonald who is cooking me found it I'm Ak puns. We work together to discuss gaming stuff. So kind of fun.

I get to bring my geekiness and he gets to bring his ability to play a resource-based game. All right. To the four. So cool. Well, after a hundred episodes, you know, for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock and until next time, keep rolling 20s.