A Geek History of Time - Episode 104 - Starship Troopers Book vs Movie Part II

Episode Date: May 1, 2021

So first and foremost, I think being the addition of pant leggings is really when you start to see your heroes get watered down. The ability to go straight man, that one. Which is a good argument for absolute dollars. Everybody is going to get behind me though, and I love being in support numbers with those shoes. When you hang out with the hero, it doesn't go well for you. Grandfather took the cob and just slid it right through the bar. Oh god, Bob. Okay.

And that became the dominant way our family did it. Okay. And so, both of my marriages, they were treated to that. Okay, wait, hold on. Yeah, rage, I could. How do you imagine the rubber chicken? My grandmother actually vacuumed in her pearls. Oh my god, you always had to sexual revolution.

It might have just been a Canadian standoff. We're gonna go back to 9-11. Do you get over it? And don't ever stand in the book, it's just fun. Agra has no business being that thick. With the cultists, it's very real. This is a geek history of time. We're Reconnected in Ergory to the real world.

My name is Ed Blaylock, I'm the most history teacher here in Northern California and a very, very big fan of old school science fiction. Examplified by our topic last episode and this one, Robert A. Hanline. Who are you? I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a Latin teacher up here in northern California. I am not a huge fan of Science fiction or I was just never fully exposed to it Readin wasn't a thing I did from about fifth grade till my first year of junior college and okay

Yeah, I just I got by I'm being smart and knowing how to synopsize based on you know ideas and and take part in a discussion in a way that you choose your entry point. So the teacher thinks, I already talked to him, I can call on other people now. Nice. So yes, I smarted my way into being dumb. It's really what I did. Well you lazy you way into being dumb.

It was, you were smart enough, you were a different brand at the same problem I had, which was you were smart enough that you could, you could just be like, well, you know, I don't really actually have to do a whole thing reading. Oh no, I read maybe a total of four books from fifth to 12th grade. Wow. Like all the way through.

Yeah, no, I understand. But if you nerd that you are now, that's really quite remarkable. Well, when I was 19, my dad handed me that book right there by Timothy's on the air to the Empire. And now you see that bookshelf. Yeah, well, yeah. And that got me back into reading,

or nonfiction as well, which is most of like, if you look at the bookshelf, I have downstairs. That's most of what you read the time. Exactly. So yeah, or any of the books behind you in those shelves. So, and then you see the bookshelf at my school, you know, I've got lots and lots of books that I read, have read, yes. You've more than caught out.

But I never got into fiction. Okay. I never got into sci-fi. So I have a giant, giant giant gaping blind spot Which I'm loving this podcast because I'm learning all kinds of stuff about books I never have and still may never read but at least I'll be conversant with them and again I can smart way my way to staying dumb True conversation. Yeah, it's about them in the future

Like well, I think the high line was more of a military apologist, more so than, you know, and well done. And really, if you think about his approach towards citizenship in Starship Troopers, I mean, it's not nearly as well written as Earth has Green Fields or we walk dogs. I know. You're okay. We, yeah, we're. Yeah, okay, yeah, that works.

But we also walk dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That works. But we also walked on. See, yeah, that one. You know, I remember I read an earlier version, and it was released. Yeah, it was what it was, was it was an anthology that was released through a series of early science fiction magazines. Now that was a thing in the 1950s, because they graduated from pulp.

Well done, thank you. Yeah, okay. I see now you see how you need to get through all of high school. Yeah, yeah, nice. Nicely done. I just tested real well. So yeah, so so we are we are expanding your your genre education. This is part one of undoubtedly a series. Helping Damian bullshit. Helping, helping Damian bullshit his way through convention cocktail parties. Yes. We are changing the title of this podcast to enabling Damian for the next hundred episodes. That would be good. Yeah, I could see that. All right., that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that the historical context in which it was written, and kind of where Heinlein lands politically on the spectrum of science fiction authors,

which is say, right of center, Horny Libertarian, not a tanky, not an authoritarian by any stretch of the imagination. Not a John Minius rightist? No. Right. No.

Yeah. No. I can't. Like even after that bumper. I'm hesitant to use the word no too many times in a row But I can't find another word to use Except no with a lot of vehemence behind it. Oh, you know, here's John Millius, is a really special fucking case. Yeah, he is. He really is.

Like, yeah, when I added to the script was mostly a lot of guns. Yeah, and some tits. And guns and tits. See, that's, if he was writing fiction novels in the 50s, that would have been the title, Guns and Tits. Guns and Tits, yeah, probably.

Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, no, he,, so yeah, no, he oh my god So given that we're doing Heinlein a way that you can negate me is instead of saying no no is is to say nine There you go the Heinlein. Yeah, there you go. So That's that's the the super short synopsis of what we were talking about last week. And the underlying statement there under all of that under my semi-apology for for hind line is of course, as we've always said, authorial intent means jack shit or variations on that. The authorial intent means nothing

once the book actually gets out into the world, once the movie is viewed by people, what you meant to do with it. Compared to what happened with it. Compared to how people run with it, how people interpret it. You know, I'm curious, who do you think the most iconic example of authorial intent doesn't mean shit?

Who do you think? Like of all the people throughout history, who do you think aetherial intent doesn't mean shit? Would, would, really just be like the most? Yes, you would have been Yusuf al-Nazreff. Okay, I was gonna say Al-Panheimer. Okay, yeah. I'm not sure which is more. Well, no, go to a,

well, Southern Baptist Church today. Yeah, well, let's say, like, you know, and I'm painting with a very broad, sadly, very broad brush, because I know there are plenty of, you know, very good progressive people who are sadness. Sadness?

Yeah. You know, it's a sect with an awful lot of schisms. Gotcha. An awful lot of pastoral events. Sounds very Southern. And it's, you know, what it is, it's very much descended from the scots right, you know Which we've also talked about in historical context before yeah, fuck you. I'm going over here Yeah, I'm not answering you you can't tell me shit

You're the valley folk yeah, right then. I'm leaving you know, but you you're arsed. I'm out. I'm leaving them gun You're a you're a rast I'm out. I'm leaving them gone Didn't answer to you. You're tired as you know So anyway Back to Heinlein yeah, so he wrote the book yes in 59 yes, I did the cold well Rising tension in the cold one. I did the Cold War is 30, 20 plus years later. You think that's interesting? I really do think, I really do think that the Reagan administration on a couple of levels

was truly if shit had gone sideways, I really genuinely think that would have been the point where no, no, no. There won't be the day after because the arsenals were so massive. Okay. Okay. I could see that. And, and, you know, there was no adult in the room. There, there was no adult in the room. So I was going to say that the to me,

it would be 62. Okay. In October. Well, yeah, you know, because we got the closest. Oh, yeah, well, that's that's where the Bringsman ship certainly got most intense. Right. That's where we got closest to buttons actually being pushed. Right. Historically. Right. But I think at that point, the scale of what would have happened. Wouldn't have killed all of humanity. Wouldn't have absolutely destroyed the entire planet. Okay, I could see that by Reagan, you know, we have a missile gap, we need more warheads.

Right. You know, had been a thing, you know, I mean, Reagan pushed it farther, but it's been a thing for 15, 20 years by that point. And so, I mean, both sides had arsenals massive enough to just reduce the planet to a bloody cinder. And so I and also I have a certain presentest kind of kind of issue with it because that's you know, when you remember, yeah sure, you know, and I'm sure my my father and my mother would look at me and be like, you have you sweet summer child, you have no fucking clue. I can guarantee you that when my dad hears this, I'm gonna get a text.

Oh yeah. Of, of, of, Damien, we were, we were under desks. Yeah, no, I didn't find any of them. And they're great, yeah, yeah. And your mom having, I'm saying that my mother had nightmares with the reds, yeah. No, I know, I understand, but, you know, my, and I totally agree that that is an interpretation, but mine is the rate of administration was,

was it was, it was the point where the water got right up to the edge of the dam in terms of the ability of both sides to destroy all life on the planet. And then, And also the willingness, maybe. And, and the willingness I genuinely think there were people in the Reagan administration who then went on to serve in both Bush

administrations afterwards. Yeah, who would have been like totally fine with all right hit it. Yeah, you know, and and we had to destroy civilization to save it. Yeah, we never wound up in a Confrontational situation during those years right put us on the brink of the trigger being pulled Okay, but I think had we I think the psychological threshold for people in leadership positions with a lot lower I see okay Okay, so let's just see if I can fuck this pig a different way. Um, so. So, thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing if I can figure this one out

a little bit more. So, while the brink was never closer than 62, the stakes for that were not as existentially a threat. And the adults in the room on both sides, though they had people pulling at them, they both ultimately valued life more than winning. Yeah. More than ideology or more than winning. Whereas in the 80s, more than winning. Yeah. More than ideology or more than where as in the 80s, nobody got closer to the brink than in 62, but people valued ideology over life and the leaders were not as as I'm going to say stalwart and strong in their personal convictions. What I would say is before Gorbachev because because then Gorbachev is a special case.

Yeah. So this is, I forget who preceded him. But it's not Brezhnav, it was the guy after that. I mean, after Brezhnav. But big Bushiyar Rao's guy. That was Brezhnav. Oh, you're right, right. Brezhnav had that one between the two.

There was a guy in between the two. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, so they didn't get closer to the brain. And the braimpoth? Could have been. They didn't get closer to the brain could have been they didn't get closer to the brain I'm gonna see you're in drop off. Okay. They didn't get closer to the brink Or they didn't get as close to the brink, but had they gotten there it would have been a done deal. Yeah, okay I'm and and at that level had it been a done deal

We would all be dust. Yeah. Okay. You know what? I accept that. Okay. So, um, so the novel is a product of that period of the Cold War when we're getting close to 62 and the tensions between both sides are really at their highest pitch. This is when we could still potentially have won an exchange. Okay.

Because the Russians had just got the H-Bomb a few years before this. They were still not at parity with us yet. And we were now pushing mutually short destruction. And so there was this sense of the brink getting closer. There was, I think, more of an assumption at that phase of the Cold War. There was more of an assumption that if things

turn into a shooting war, there's going to be a nuclear exchange followed by a land war. By the 80s, I don't know, in the popular imagination, I don't think we thought that it was going to be well, the missiles are going to fly and then they're going to come through the fold of gap. Right. I mean, Army doctrine was written around the idea that this is what we're gonna do when and if they do come through fold a. Uh-huh. But in the popular imagination, it was just, no, we're gonna launch missiles at each other

and cities are gonna burn. Mm-hmm. You know, and Starship Troopers is definitely written from a point of view of land evasions. Of their being boots on the ground, grunts fighting against this horde of faceless, communist, I mean bug, you know, aggressors. Right. And so I think the book needs to be viewed in that context. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Now, so that's 59 my line writes the book it turns into a Seminal work within the genre as I pointed out. There's a whole subgenre of science fiction that Probably would have come about but we wouldn't have seen it the same way right? I would argue and I mean this isn't something I'm willing to, like, you know, kill somebody on a hill over, but I think it's something that we could argue about that the shape of military science fiction would not be what it is without Starship Troopers,

that everything in the same way that Adam West's Batman is the Batman that all of the others are in some way. Yeah. Everything after that is a reaction to it. Right. The Forever War by Joe Holdeman, Halo is the other example. Right, right. All of these military science fiction stories

that we have are one way or another, a response to Starship Troopers. Hammer Slammers was the other one that I thought of Hammer Slammers was specifically a Vietnam vet using science fiction to write about his experiences in the jungle. And like the whole uvra, the whole language that he uses, the tropes that are in all of that, we see in Starship Troopers in their

nascent forms. Okay. So, I mean, it's this hugely important work. It's this hugely popular work because on top of everything else that it is, it's a pretty good adventure story. It's a fun action adventure, coming of age story, you know, Ra Ra, fight monsters, win the glory, save the world, you know, save humanity. It's accessible. Yeah. Yeah. It's very accessible. And it's on the recommended reading list for the

Marine Corps, which is unsurprising. No kidding. Okay. And I think multiple military academies. Sure. Sure. Okay. Now, and this is, again, I point to the enapolis connection. Yeah. Because you've got him, you've got William Apples and Williams. Both are just, I mean, at least in their early years at the academy, I believe they were

first-class seamen. And when you have first class semen, you can have seminal work. Nice. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, 16, you're slipping. I didn't even spend multiple minutes talking about my job and your, your, that's, yeah, that's on me. Yeah, all right. Yeah. So, so, and he did do his writing of it at Florida State University. So that also makes sense. Yeah. So. Yeah.

OK. I'm not moving on. So the bathrooms there, if you want to make some extra money, there's a place where you can earn glory. And the first floor to start that is a seminal, seminal, semin' hall. Yeah, where? No. No, just no.

So, so 30 years, 28 years, or by. And in 1997, the movie of Starship Troopers, it comes out in theaters, and it didn't do very well. It was it was panned by critics.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. I won't go to the first sit. It was a flop, but it was not exactly a runaway success. It was not the blockbuster that everybody was hoping it was going to be. Right. And there are a few reasons for this. The really hardcore, high-line nerds who heard

they're finally making a Starship Troopers movie. Holy shit, yes. Went and saw stills from production immediately shat all over it. Because number one, number one, number one, number one, number one, number one, number one. Number two, one of the central things in the novel is that Johnny Rico is a member of the mobile infantry. Yeah. And what makes the mobile infantryman special is

he's not just a grunt in body armor with a rifle. He's in a suit of powered armor. Oh, yeah, that's not what happened there. That's not at all what happened in the game. Okay, okay, okay. Everybody was hoping we were gonna get to see. Mantank. Yeah. We were gonna get to see a mobile suit. We were gonna get to see, no, seriously, mobile infantry. And they did some test stuff with it early on and found that the technology just didn't exist yet to make it not shitty.

Yeah, because I mean, you had robot jocks in 91. Boy, you talk about a crap movie. Yeah, and then you talk about Height of the Cold War, but oh my God, what a steaming pile of Cold War garbage that was. And then you also have the third Matrix movie in 2003. 2000. No. And then you also have the third Matrix movie in 2003 2000. No, I think it might have been 2004, but anyway, right around then.

Yeah. And they actually did have mobiles by that point. And it looked good. Yeah, yeah, worked. Yeah, but a weird gap. Yeah, it took a while for effects to get there. And so without the suit that made each individual mobile infantryman a superhero, the whole tone of the movie changed very dramatically. And that's part of what I think

that's part of the reason when you say starship troopers now, but it says, oh yeah, no, Highlands fascist. Right, right, right. So I've already talked about, you know, now we're going to talk about the movie and it came out in 97. Yes. And there's an awful lot of history between 59 and 97. The first and foremost, by 97, the Cold War

has been over for half a decade. Yeah. Okay. We are no longer worried, we in the United States and in portions of Western Europe, we are no longer worried about the Soviet monolith. Oh, there's discussion of do we invite the Soviet Union, or do we invite the former Soviet Union in Deneito,

or do we just get rid of NATO? There was that discussion. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, the entire world stage, the whole context for anybody who picked the book up after 1992, the entire context of the work is completely different.

Yes. The entire context of the movie thus is completely different because we create things as you have said repeatedly, everything you write is a reflection of the time in the world in which you write it. Yes, Yes. And so this is between the first Iraq war and 9-11. Okay. The first Iraq war.

Now, at a time that people didn't know is between those things. Well, yeah. No, yes. Yes. But for us looking back with the advantages and processes. We can place it in time in this period. And the thing is, if the movie had been made pre-Iraq war or pre-Gulf war, wait war. Right, right.

Cause nowadays we see Iraq war and... We think of the end they want. We think of, yeah. But if it had been made before 91, or if it had been made after 9-11, would have been a completely different film. Would have been the allegory, all of the metaphors,

all everything would have been completely different. And so we have to look at the context of that era. And this movie is a reaction to Vietnam, Reagan, and the first Gulf War. Okay. This is my statement on this. This is my thesis. And I'm going to talk about Vietnam first. Because chronologically, Vietnam was a watershed loss for the US military.

Yeah. It was an institutionally damaging conflict over the course of the time that the US was involved in combat operations in Vietnam, the military as an institution, not even not, I mean, over and above the level of the number of soldiers who were killed or wounded or taken prisoner over and above the amount of money and material was lost. The institution of the US Defense Department and the individual armed services were themselves damaged by that conflict. And when you say damage, I would just point out it's I don't disagree and at the same

time budgets thereafter were ever on the increase. Oh yeah. The military as the solution was ever on the increase. Yeah. I wish that I could get that kind of damage. Yeah, wish education could damage that. Yeah, shit. I wish my personal finances could take that kind of a hit. Yeah, no kidding. You know, like sign me up, where's my Vietnam? Oh yeah, which is awful, but. Yeah.

But like in terms of that. You're point is meaningful. Yeah, and at the same time, like you're not wrong about, it did damage everything. It shook our faith in it, and maybe the same time, like, you're not wrong about it, it did damage everything. It it shook our faith in it. And maybe that's it. It shook our connection as a society to our military. Yeah. And the military has now become its own thing.

Its own separate sub culture, sub thing. Which absolutely ties into Verhoeven's critique. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, okay. So, jungle combat against an insurgent army was a paradigmatic shift that none of the uniformed services were ready for. No.

And it left the whole structure of the military demoralized and conflicted. There is a whole we don't we don't teach about this or it's not part of the standard curriculum in high school when we teach Vietnam. It's not part of the textbooks. It's not included in the textbooks, but there was a GI anti-war movement. And not only that, but the unrelenting pace of combat operations and the social issues that were underlying all of that in our own society at the time came up in ways that wound up severely damaging morale

and caused a huge amount of damage to the, what's the word, prestigious word to come to mind, but it's wrong, but the legitimacy of military leadership within the military. Yeah, the rank and file soldiers lost, it's not just the public lost faith in the military, rank and file soldiers lost faith in their leadership. Yes.

And a big part of the trouble that they ran into was the draft. the trouble that they ran into was the draft. It was young men getting pulled into the military to fight in a war that was, amongst their demographic, that was unwinnable. The way it was trying to be pursued, it was not a winnable conflict. It was on the other side of the planet against a bunch of people that like, why do I, what did they do to me? Right. Well, communism, son. Why do I care? Right. Right. And, and, and then on top of that, um, well, I mean, yeah, that's basically it. I had a thought and it got a little way. Yeah, it's a back up what you're saying. The amount of fraggings that happened in Vietnam was in the thousands.

Yeah. Yes. And notable cases of the GI anti-war movement are the Fort Hood 3 in 1966. Uh huh. Three soldiers who just said, I am not going to Indochina. Right.

No, I'm refusing. Yes, it's a lawful order. I'm refusing it anyway. I don't care. The Presidio Mutiny in 1968, which was a similar kind of situation. And I'm going to mention this here, even though it's a little bit different. There was the Kitty Hawk riot in October of 1972. That one I don't know.

Yeah, you don't. You should. Okay. We all should. My father has very vivid memories of this one, because he... I don't remember whether he was on the Kitty Hawk at the time or if he was in the fleet on another carrier with the Kitty Hawk at the time. Wait, so this is on a ship?

Yes. This is not Kitty Hawk Carolina, this is the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk. Okay. Which my father did serve on. He did more than one cruise on the Kitty Hawk. But I don't remember whether he was there in 72, but he does remember being proximate if he wasn't on the ship. He was nearby. He has very small percentage of black sailors.

Yes. The leadership of the Navy was culturally very southern, very white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, Anglo-Saxon Protestant and the racial dynamics of the Navy were largely mostly white officers or white, almost universally white officers, mostly nearly all white sailors with support crew who were primarily Filipino because of Subik Bay and Navy just being the service that most of them gravitated toward. Sure. And then in the 60s during the Vietnam War, they basically they drafted more black young men into the Navy. And Navy was compared to the Army considered a relatively safe birth or relatively safe place to go. I've got drafted. I want the Navy because I'm not going to be in the jungle getting shot at, but Black sailors wound up being put in the most grueling, ugliest, most dangerous jobs on the ship. The majority of black sailors aboard the Kitty Hawk were on the deck crew, which on an aircraft carrier is the loudest,

most dangerous place to be, because there are jet aircraft spooling up, needing to be armed. You got to put ordinance on them, right, to get them to go fly out to drop bombs on people, right. So that's a really dangerous set of job. Sure. And so there were racial tensions already because of the Navy's up to that point, abysmal kind of racial dynamics. Yeah. And anyway, there was a race ride aboard the Kitty Hawk, which led to a huge effort within the Navy to try to fix those problems. Good.

And your opinion of those efforts will, of course, be colored by your own upbringing, your own experience as prior to that. And what have you? My dad thought a lot of it was touchy-feely bullshit, but then my father also grew up in South Florida in the 40s and into the 50s. So, you know, product of your environment. Right. And, you know, my dad has just not ever been a very touchy-feely person. They did they did a very 70s kind of, you know, we're has just not ever been a very touchy feeling person and they did, they did a very seventies

kind of, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna have an encounter session, you know, and, and, you know, the story my dad, my dad, tells about this is, you know, they'd call a sailor in and they'd have officers, you know, they'd have a group of officers in the room and the officers were supposed to put their names down on the name tag And this is this is so much my dad

You know the other guys wrote, you know Joe or Bob or whatever my dad wrote down Lieutenant Blaylock and The and the the the the counselor psychologist Whatever you wouldn't psychiatrist whoever it was who was it was run civilian contract, it was running sessions, I said to him, no, no, your name. And my dad's response and this informs, I will admit, this informs my own way of occasionally talking to my students. But as a sponsor was, that is my name. Right. I am Lieutenant Blalock.

I worked to earn that title. Right. And this is the military. Right. Right. You know, my own thing, you know, kids ask me, well, what's your name? Mr. Blalock. I also accept Sir. Mm-hmm. Well, no, but like, what's your real name? That is my real name. Mr. Yeah. You know, you know, it's a different context of course, but but you know, I am my father's kid. So, but so, so these are the kinds of issues that we're going on throughout the military. Sure. You know, there are there are stories of, you know, in Vietnam on the ground in Vietnam of

racial tensions in in echelon positions. Interestingly, on the front lines, you don't see this stuff, but then back at Battalion headquarters, guys would run up Confederate flags. Yeah, and like kind of shit. Yeah. And so, you know, this-

The it can lose over there too. Yeah, well, yeah. And so all of this led to a huge overhaul after Vietnam, the entire structure of recruitment and service in the military was completely restructured. Leadership of the army actually went to the White House and went to Congress and said, we gotta get rid of the

fucking draft. Because the guys we're getting don't want to be there. And our morale problem could not be worse. Conscription is not working. We need to move to an all-volunteer force. And so in 73, that happened. The draft got scrapped. Right, right. And the military switched, shifted to an all-volunteer force.

I think it's interesting that when you start, because the draft had two phases during the Vietnam War II, there was the draft, and then there was the lottery. And the lottery was, okay, now that rich parents are losing their kids, we gotta stop this. Right, so you got that aspect to it. But also, I do think it's interesting that the, pardon me, the military goes to the White House

and says we have to stop the draft because the people were getting are no longer wanting to be a part of this. At no time prior to that would the military have justifiably been able to say so because at no time prior to that, did you have such a disconnect from the population and the idea of their responsibility to the government in exchange for the government's responsibility to them? And what I really find interesting there is you actually have a more responsive government at this point. You have a welfare state on some levels at this point and You have a greater diversity of the electorate at this point at this point. You also have 18 year olds getting to vote

Yeah, like you have more rights a more responsive government and at the exact same time You found some way to fuck it up where instead of involving everybody now, like, like, here's the thing, we, this proves Heinlein's idea of wrong that if you give people more of a stake in what's going on, if you have spent all that time, like, shitting where you eat, they're not not gonna want to. Yeah, well, yeah, of course. Yeah. And the legitimacy issue of like, oh yeah, we're gonna go to Vietnam. Why? Well, because communism, now I need something better than that.

Well, why do you need something better than that? Well, I went to college, see. Well, I don't care if you want to college, we're going because communism. Fuck, your parents did this. Well, my parents didn't go to college. They actually did this, so they could go to college. And my dad's older brother went to Europe to fight Nazis. Because Nazis were literally killing people for not being Aryan. And they were trying to take over the fucking world.

Right, so there's a different reason there explain to me Yeah, you know, how how are the vietcong doing that please please tell me yeah, and well We you know get in there and do it. Okay. I'm gonna get in there Right, you know, you know what I don't understand here You know, they just they just want to want to farm on their own land and like not. Here's a note from the North Vietnamese army. It turns out it's the declaration of independence. Yeah.

So, you know, I like, there's so much going on there. Didn't our CIA actually back this guy? Right. No, that was the OSS. So, or CIA is against it. Yeah, CIA is different, different animal. Yeah. It's literally led by the same people.

It's different, different family. Twight spell different, sorry, no, yeah. You're bullshit. Yeah. So, yeah, and so the prestige of the military, public, trust in the military. The willingness to put down what you're doing and then go serve is gone. It's not there. Yeah, because there's no, you can say, okay, the Soviets, we're scared of the Russians.

We're still scared of the Russians, the Russians, you know, by the 70s, when we have this shift to an all-volunteer force, the level of perceived immediate threat the level of perceived immediate threat isn't there. Right. For most 18-year-olds, in the 50s, when 18-year-olds in between 51 and 54 or when they were being sent off to Korea, okay, no.

No, the Russians have gotten the H-bomb. We got it, you know, there was a sense of immediacy. There was and there wasn't like, it, that I think was the first chipping away at it. Oh yeah, no. This doesn't make sense, but I still trust. Yeah. And that was the end of it.

Like you, you spent it wrong. Yeah. You spent it wrong, you know. You used to have capital in the room. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the public's connection to the military public's trust in the military, um, dipped below 50%. Yeah. And then very gradually, it

climbed back out of that hole as time went on. Uh, people do love war.. Yeah, well it climbed dramatically under Reagan because Reagan got elected in large part as a response to our psychological, you know, malaise. Yeah. You know, and telling us how great we were and, you know, support our vets, our rob, you know, that's where we first start hearing that. True. It's, which is funny because he's the one who closed down a lot of the care facilities in California.

Well, because you don't want to have socialism. No, we don't want to want to want to be coming like the Soviets. Yeah. But supporter. Yeah. So, and he didn't he envied Grenada? He did, which basically fixed Vietnam for us. So good stuff. Yeah, you know, at the time, because let's say Grenada was 83. Yeah. I was eight. I was living in Hawaii.

And or no, actually it was before, it was, no, it was right as we moved. We had just arrived. And I remember watching this whole thing about, you know, invading Grenada and I nobody was ever able to explain to me as an eight-year-old, right? convincingly, like, why is this a big deal? Like, I wasn't old enough for sophisticated enough to understand the political ramp getting none of that. Like, nobody could explain to me like, why are we so excited about this? Right, it's because we can win Vietnam.

This is, this is an island in the Caribbean. Yeah, well, yeah, nobody was able to explain the context. Well, you know, Sun, see, we had this conflict that we lost, and it was hugely damaging to our psyche. So now this, this, you know, invasion of a Caribbean island to rescue some medical students, because there's been a coup. Right. And the Cubans are involved, which means the Soviets have to be involved. I mean, this whole thing didn't register for me.

Now, I am a Facebook friend with a Marine veteran who was actually involved in Grenada. So he has very vivid personal memories of that whole operation. And, you know, but the geopolitical importance of it is not something that's still to this day. and, you know, but the geopolitical importance of it is not something that's still to this day. Like, and I don't, and I think, pardon me, I think there was an outpouring of yay we won.

And I don't think there was, I don't remember, I'll put it that way. I don't remember there being any overt recognition of mention of Vietnam in it, but it was. There wasn't. We had this military operation in we won, and there was a Henry the fifth that azure core effect and all of a sudden, you know, hella conquering

heroes and all this because it was a short victorious yeah, which is what every leader in every state wants if he can get one she can get one. And so are you mentioned Margaret that you're again. I don't know what you're talking about. Paul Collins. Um, and so, so the, the, the, the respect that Americans had and the trust Americans had in the institution of the military, right rose dramatically under Reagan, um, dipped a little bit and then spiked again dramatically right around 91.92, because of the Gulf War. Right. Okay, and so this, this rising

reactionary pro-military outlook, because it was like, we got anti military? And now we're gonna be more pro military. We're back, baby. We're back, baby. Rambo had a second movie. Yeah. It wasn't just about like being shitty to veterans.

Yeah, now it's actually about fixing Vietnam. American, hegemoni on the world stage. Yeah. And so. You had a third movie where he helped the Taliban and the freedom fighters. Freedom fighters, tell stage. Yeah. And so you had a third movie where he helped the Taliban, freedom fighters, freedom fighters, tell man. Yeah. Yeah. Who there's no way that could ever come back to bite us in the ass. Never. And so Paul Rovan in 1996 gets a, gets, gets a script for Starship Troopers from Ed Numeier, who was a writer he'd worked with,

who had worked with him on Robocop. He'd been one of the writers for that. That is a good one. Yeah. And so Verhoeven's whole outlook, you got to remember Verhoeven was born in 48. Okay. Verhoeven is Dutch. 48 okay for Hohvin is Dutch Dutch and born in 48 yeah So his entire outlook on the institution of the military Is going to be very different from an American context yes just to begin with yes because he grew up in the real no kidding aftermath of World War II. Yeah.

Okay. And so he saw what militarism and Rago us, you know, nationalism run rampant. He he is of the generation that grew up in the ruins and the rebuilding after that kind of fallout. I'm sorry, he's born in 38. 38. So he so he was old enough to remember the war. Right. I'm off by a decade and just like I was with Berlin, airlift, left episode. Now he's born in 38 if it was 48, being buried in my folks. But he was born in 38, so he witnessed the war, which just more goes to my point. Yes. And then he was coming of age of reason at a time where Europe was going to be the

thing over which America and Russia fought and watching and would kill them all. Yeah. And watching our involvement in Korea and then in Vietnam. Right. From that lens as. But also seeing the Dutch Empire completely disintegrate. Yes, seeing, yes, seeing, yeah, all of all of their, you know, holdings, gain their independence and everything,

you know, so his outlook on Empire, his outlook on militarism, his outlook on all these things, would be dramatically different, which also means his opinion of Heinlein's novel. Well, is gonna read different. Yeah, well, here's his own statement. I stopped after two chapters because it was so boring. It is really quite a bad book.

I asked Ed Numeier to tell me the story because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very right a bad book. I asked Ed Numire to tell me the story because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very right-wing book. Now, we've talked about fact that our over-ten window in this country is fucked compared to the rest of the world. Yeah. And it's not just Europe, it's everywhere. We are, by default, a more right wing leaning culture.

What to us is, well, that socialism is slightly right of center. In Germany and other places in Europe, like until you actually start talking about, no, no, we need to nationalize industry. Mm-hmm. We need to come, we need to centrally control everything in the account until you start talking that way, you're not a leftist in any other part of the world. To them, our democratic party is, well, there are moderate right-wingers. Yeah. So our right-wingers are Nazis.

Yes. Or just shy of, you know. Absolutely. And nowadays, of course, our real right-wingers are often actually not. Yes, they are. And so his outlook on this book that was written by US military veteran during the Cold War as an allegory for us versus the Soviet model of it, there's a completely different kind

of man behind his view of it. And so in that same interview, this is him talking about the movie in 2005 in an interview with Empire Magazine, he went on in the same interview to say, and with the movie, we tried, and I think it least partially succeeded in commenting on that at the same time. It would be eat your cake and have it all the way through. We were fighting with the fascism, the ultra militarmilitarism, all the way through. I wanted the audience to be asking, are these people crazy?

Mmm, that's interesting. So now here's the deal. The novel was not a satire. Right. The movie, 100% was. From its variant, from the first moment he looked at the script, and now here's the deal.

I don't think NewMire, because NewMire has now written multiple sequels To the original Starship troopers all of which I've watched okay And none of them were theatrically released but but he's he's released these multiple films he himself Is on the record is being a huge fan of the novel mm-hmm I'm gonna go out on a limb and I'm gonna say, when he wrote the script, he didn't write it initially as a satire. Then Verhoeven took a look at it and went,

oh, this is clearly satire. This is fucking nut bar. Okay, well, you know, if we're gonna do it, let's lean in. Yep. And now we have a movie And now we have a movie where it is a reaction to somebody who is not an American, viewing our own seasawing relationship to our own military. Uh-huh. After not only the nadir of post-Vietnam, but then Grenada, we won.

Right. We're back, followed by the first Gulf War, which was, again, a short victories war, I clearly saw in the first Gulf War more of the, well, you know, this is making up in our national psyche for Vietnam. Yes. And there was overt reference to the experience of Vietnam veterans when we, when, when we, when we, when we is a nation, when we as the, you know, the overarching dominant culture of our nation was talking about, you know, how, no, we are pro soldier, we are pro troops, we are for the truth, we wanna bring them all home, we don't want them over in the desert.

You know, and the anger did not get pointed at the army. The way it had during the institution of the military. It's like, well, I'm pro, the soldiers. So I'm just actually not even gonna get anywhere near. Like Norman Schwartzkopf did not get satirized by anti-war people. No, he didn't. You know, because he's a general, so he's not a grunt, but he's a soldier, so we're not gonna pick on, but he's still, he's a soldier, so we're not going to pick on him. Right. We're going to, we're going to be angry at the Bush administration. We're going

to be in the arms filled all, you know, chaining all these other guys that went on in the second Bush administration. Same country. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because unfinished business, one of them left his filactory there and they had their recaalculation. I don't know. You know, Cheney's a litch. Come on. Like, seriously. So in any event, I'm getting off the subject, but you know, they, the conversation in our country

was framed in that kind of context where we're not going to say anything bad about the army, we're not going to say anything bad about the Air Force, the Navy, those institutions we can't mess with. Well, and a lot of that had to do with the propaganda that Bush had learned from Vietnam. Yeah. Like, start it off by saying this will not be another Vietnam. Yes. So there's that.

But also, they recognized the role that the press had in exposing everything. Yes. And they co-rastically, yeah, co-opted and restricted. You are not going to show the remains. You're not going to show the coffins. Although I'm not sure if that came in the first or the second golf course. Or second golf course.

That was the second. Okay. But we're going to give you a lot of access over here, long as you don't fuck it up. So don't go asking those weird questions. Whereas in Vietnam, it was the Wild West as far as reporters went. You know, they could go wherever they wanted. Because the army, the Pentagon, did not at that point have a plan for dealing with them. Right.

And that's one of the things that they learned right quick. Right. Fast. Yeah. And television and television was a new medium in the mass media in Vietnam. Yeah. And so, you know, they were used to, well, you know, we got the print guys. Well, and you also had the fairness doctrine. Yeah. That was in place there and you also had only three channels and you had the the fact that each channel had to provide news. Yes, whereas in the Persian Gulf War, well, I don't want to call it that because that's between Iraq and Iran and we just kept giving weapons to both. But in the the first US invasion of Iraq That you had a cable news network the 24 hour cable news network. Yeah, you had a 24 hour news cycle. Yes

You got to feed the beast exactly and so that's a very very different landscape and you don't have the fairness doctrine Well, that's a completely different paradigm. Yeah, so And so Verhoeven is responding in his movie in 1997 to all of that, and he's taking our national response to those things, and then ramping it up to 11 because he was born in 1938 in you know he's Dutch and born in Holland in 1938 and like do you see? Right. Yeah. Where are the lowlands? This is where shit happens. This is like come on. Yes. The- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- of the first things attacked by the book. Yeah. Like it is straight up like I remember that very vividly because it's like wow, they're really you know putting the military and the the camera guy right in there.

Yeah. And you know he gets you know just and and the guy gets squeezed until he bursts apart. Yeah. Just like oh this is a different level of things. Oh really? Yeah. Shit. Yeah.

And the and the violence is it's it's the old ultraviolence. Yes. It's a rovin movie. That's what, that's one of his trademarks. Yeah. Sex and violence cranked up to 11. Mm-hmm. Even when he's not doing satire.

Yeah. Um, and, and so, you know, his, his initial response to the novel informs the way he made the movie. Yes. informs every choice he made about it and his the resulting film is a fascist satire. It is a straight-up setup of this is what you all look like, ladies and gentlemen, to the rest of the world, like fun house mirror time, high here you are. And the thing is, It is on one level, absolutely unavoidably, patently obvious than its attire. Would you like to know more the cartoony moments where we're going to pause the actual plot of the movie to show you no shit, the propaganda newsreel where to work as exposition.

To work as exposition, where we're going to have kindergartners being handed bullets. Yes. And stomping and stomping on bugs, do you know where apart? Yeah. Like, no, no, no. We're inculcating this in the littlest children.

Y'all are the Nazis. Y'all are the kids. You're the toddler. Yeah. You sitting there in the chair, you're the toddler. Yeah. Do you get it?

I mean, like big red clown members, you know, and, you know, they show that like, and we're exploring and we're learning more. And it's like, yeah, you take the giant chainsaw and shove it up to things ass, you know, you know, you know, aim for the nerve cluster. Yeah. Like 86% more efficient. Yeah. Like in, in a combat situation. Yeah the people who would make that film would know this is useless advice. Because how big is that target? Yeah. In a combat, like that was the first thing I thought,

watching the film, and in that moment, we're doogie houseer with the ever growing bags on Drew's eyes because psychic powers are evil, is talking about this. I looked at that as, you know, having at one point Ben and ROTC could have I looked at that and went, that's ludicrous. Like like the technical, like not just the satire is over the top of crazy. The technical aspect of that is stupid. Like any infantryman,

anybody who's ever handled a weapon in a drill. Right. Is gonna be able to tell you, oh right, yeah, great. In the middle of a fight, while I'm scared out of my mind and running for my life, either toward the enemy or away. Right. You know Battlefield.

I'm just going to aim for a target the size of a basketball at 30 if I'm really close 30 meters away. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Totally. I'm going to, no, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to hold the trigger down on my rifle and pray. Is what I'm going do I'm gonna hold the trigger down on my rifle and pray is what I've got a fucking do sure so you know and and just like so cartoonishly

over the top all of that stuff and so if your exposure to Starship troopers is through the movie well then yeah it's a fascist fucking book. Uh-huh. Because it's based on the book, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. But also no. Right. And that's kind of, and that's where we get to kind of my whole, my whole point here.

Sure. And it's not that I'm trying to necessarily defend Heinlein's point, but I think it's an important message. It's a nuance that you need to strike. It's a nuance that if you're going to approach the novel as a separate thing, you kind of need to understand that.

And I think Heinlein was a product of his time. He had problematic ideas But I think he does not deserve To be painted as a fascist sure When he wasn't one that wasn't that wasn't what the book was supposed to be You know, it's it's an easy jump from, well, this is a steaming pile of fascist crap too. Obviously, he's a fucking Nazi. Well, okay. In this case, no. Right. You know, you know, Robert E. Howard had all kinds of ideas about toxic masculinity. He was racist, he was all this, but like we got to contextualize we don't, we shouldn't be entirely wrapped up

in our presentism. And again, I'm not saying this to like defend his ideas, but I think the judgment of any of these writers needs to take those things into account. Sure. And for Hulvin, clearly was making a very, very potent, very, very caustic point. Vibrant point. Very, yes. And here's the deal, looking back on the film.

Mm-hmm. It's a, it really is a master work of. It is. Satire, it is, it is. No, no, I'm gonna take the letter, reef install and I'm gonna mock the fuck out of her. Oh yeah, yeah. Like, like, I'm gonna,

oh, all these shots that were so incredibly iconic back when she made Tramp for the will, I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna point out, how ridiculous is this? Right. Like, do you understand the artifacts involved in all of this? Like, none of this? Right. Like do you understand the artifice involved in all of that? Right. Like none of this is real.

All of that is brilliant. And coming from his background, coming from his outlook on the book and his everything, all of it makes perfect sense. Sure. The thing is, Americans as consumers of media do not do a good job recognizing irony or satire. True. And that movie came out and there were basically two well three distinct camps. I've mentioned the first camp hardcore Heinlein fans.

You don't have you don't actually have mobile infantry in it. Fuck you. Right. Carbage. It's not the book. Fuck you. Okay. We're just going to set them aside comfortably because that's a whole other artistic conversation to have.

The general public in my experience, having remembered how people responded to the film largely fell into two categories. There were people who really loved it. Totally unironically, rah-rah, right. Oh, yeah, rah, because it was just after the first Gulf War. You know, rah, and then people who were like, well, I didn't like it.

I felt like it was making fun of people, and I wasn't sure, like, I don't know exactly what was going on, but it made me uncomfortable, and I don't know exactly what was going on, but it made me uncomfortable on a no-no-why. Like, those were the two major camps. And then there was the third group, which was mostly film nerds and perceptive, have done a lot of reading, you know, pointy-headed people who went, well, it's a satire.

And it's remarkably well done satire. And it's a satire and it's a remarkably well done satire and it's not supposed to make it comfortable. That's the point. Right. And it did it real well. But that's a very small, in my experience as a viewer at the time, that was a very, very, very small group of people. Most everybody either were, you know know Marines watching the movie straight off base Because it was the weekend and you know through the whole thing you know blood and guts loved it or You know it made me feel kind of it key and I don't know why Mm-hmm, and I don't like it and that's why it didn't wind up turning into a blockbuster because Satire doesn't

doesn't bus blocks yeah you know Robocop another Verhoeven film right kind of the same thing yep like there were people who were like yeah robot police officer super hero blood and guts bad assery balance bad assery yeah my literal father my two yeah And then on the other side. Yeah, well it's dark and gross and hyper violent I just I don't I don't like it. Yeah, I don't want kids watching this right? I don't want you know It's an R rated film kids aren't supposed to be watching it. I did yeah Yeah, yeah, it's our rated movie I ever saw.

Oh wow. And I had some meaningful questions about, well, okay, the scientist is supposed to kind of be a good guy because he's building Robocop. So why are we seeing him doing drugs with these women of ill-repute? Like, what's going on with that? And, you know, had the conversation,

my parents, to their credit, had the conversation about, well, he's not really a good guy. with that and you know had the conversation my parents to their credit had the conversation about well he's not really a good guy like he's doing this thing that is good but he's not necessarily a good person right he's got this flaw you know we have that conversation to their credit, you know, but not really, not I was not the target audience. Right. And the people who were the target audience for many of them, it went over their heads. Like, I'm pretty sure my dad spotted, oh yeah, this is totally satire, but like, it's fun. It's fun. Yeah.

It's, you know, and the, you know, well, you know, and the, the, you know, well, you know, their home is a lefty, whatever, you know, kind of kind of take on it. Like the satire didn't go over his head. He was like, well, yeah, it's satire, but it's also yeah, I can fun movie. I don't know with starship troopers. How many of the ra ra crowd recognize that it was a satire? Yeah, well, like, and maybe that's my own point.

He had a nerd prejudice coming out, but like that wasn't the vibe I got off of people that I was talking to at the time who were like totally enamored of the film. I leaned in the direction of, well, yeah, I mean, it was a great action flick and all that was fun to watch. But it didn't have actual mobile infantry. So like it wasn't really starship troopers. Sure. It was, you know, kind of my take on it at the time. Yeah, I found it an incredibly entertaining movie. I remember specifically talking to a friend of mine about how entertaining it was. She's like, wow, it was all about glorifying fascism. And I was like, how?

I mean, yes, you had the stupid uniform that Dugi Howzer wore, but beyond that. And then she just started listing things. I'm like, I'm gonna go see it again. Then I went and saw it again. I remember it's 97, so I just started reading again. Oh yeah. And then I was like, you know, okay, I'm and saw it again. I remember it's 97 so I just started reading again. Oh yeah. And then I was like, you know, okay, I'm starting to see this and then I liked it all the

more because it's one of the first movies that I truly pulled a ton of symbolism from. For instance, every adult who advises Johnny Rico is crippled. They are scarred and or crippled. Every single teacher that he had, the only person who isn't, yeah, in the movie, you know, a room with clannahan was in it. By the way, she's the biology teacher. I just love that she's teaching them about the facts of life. Yeah. You know, uh, and, uh, but she's blind. you have the guy who you know Oh, welcome it made me the man I am today. He's missing legs. Yeah And I mean that one was really obvious. I got that on the first time. Yeah

The fact that the Michael Ironsides characters missing an arm. Yeah The only adult that isn't scarred who talks to Rico is His dad and he's wrong. And he's whole. And so there's that aspect of it. There's the fierce egalitarianism of it all. Everybody showers together, everybody talks together, so like that. But it's exactly.

But also you have that he is the rich boy, the boy of privilege, whereas Dizzy is not. You had that aspect to it as well. And then you had the fact that Carl, his psychic friend, never used his powers for good. Ever. He sent the ferret to go attack his mom. He used his computer skills to make fun of Johnny Rico's computer scores and bring it up so that everybody could see it

He he moves in on dizzy when she's been rejected You know and and on and on and on yeah, so like oh wow. Yeah, that's there's there's some potent anti-intellectualism going on there. Mm-hmm You know, and then there's the would you like to know more stuff and of course, you know the internet's very nascent at that time and stuff like that But the big fucking eagle that comes out the fact that you know the person you know They basically came up with island hopping as a theory. Mm-hmm instead of like full frontal assault And you know he steps down and just down and just a criminal was caught today, censencing tonight. And very much that kind of stuff.

But I loved the symbolism of it. Like the fact that they're all wearing gray, very Nazi. They had basically the neo-Nazi use of suspenders. You had the different people who would help, and yet Rico, because he keeps embodying the ideals that he's not sure he wants yet, he keeps getting promoted on an onward and onward onward. By the way, that scene where you talked about last time where they're fighting with the merchant marines, that's done in the ship where he on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and getting through and accelerating in all of her abilities and stuff like that. But she absolutely wanted that kind of a thing.

Whereas he didn't know what he wanted. And so he became a ground pounder. So yeah, and then everybody cheering with it's afraid. Yeah, I got that with the first viewing. The corp- It's afraid! Yeah, I wasn't. Yeah, and here's the thing, what's remarkable is

there's cross pollination or or convergent evolution there, because you know, putting this putting his hand on the brain bug, it is afraid. Everybody cheering is such a warhammer 40k moment too. Oh, yeah, which is also sad time. Such a low the Xeno hate the Xeno right right. You know absolutely. I find that travel closes the mind admirably. Yeah kind of you know whole take on that. But you know also the the Mormons. Oh yeah well that's actually that's actually out of the book. The Mormon. Nice. Okay being being attacked is actually is a beat out of the book, okay? But the fact that the bugs are sucking people's brains away. Yeah, the fact that you know That's how they're gonna learn about you is by literally digesting your brain

Mm-hmm and just like so many aspects of it is such a fun movie, but at the same time So many aspects of it are so a fun movie, but at the same time, so many aspects of it are so clearly, like you said, the reef install shots. Oh yeah. You know, it's so very clearly a satire. And the symbolism of it is very, very rich. It kind of reminds me of when I had a girlfriend who loved horror films. And that got me started on analyzing a couple of horror films. And that got me started on analyzing a couple

of horror films for our podcast because I don't really care about horror films, but it's a genre and genre is rich with symbolism. So this was another one. And also the glorification of nuclear weapons. And the fact that tactical nukes are no big deal. and just and also the glorification of nuclear weapons. And the fact that tactical nukes are no big deal. And also bad intelligence by the military and so like that.

And again, that captain also ends up being a scarred and wounded person. And once Rico and Carmen are both scarred, then they can be friends. And now they've earned their stripes, literally, because their stripes on their body, and stuff like that. So, yeah, I really, really like it still as a movie.

I don't remember the second one, I do remember the third or the fourth one, I remember the last one. I do remember the third or the fourth one. I remember the last one that I watched. And it was so very clearly a Christian apology movie because it was all about faith. The whole thing was all about faith. There was very hamphisted and about faith. I was like, okay, cool. So I don't necessarily recommend you watch the any of the others. They're not worth it. It's kind of like the other highlander movies. Yeah, wait stop. Yeah, there are other highlander movies No, there are yeah, no more of them people's got paid to one no no so no

What didn't happen so but yeah, I think that um friend of the show Bishop on l and I Have have made a pact that we will never acknowledge that there were ever any other Highlander films made because there weren't okay not even the one with Adrienne Paul Where they passed the the sword to him no TV series okay, yeah That's that's thing well then you have the movie that bridge to get between that series. Okay, yeah. Well, then you have the movie that bridge the gap between that. No, no, no, no. But so yeah, I really liked it. Right on down to just the fact that they had artillery bugs, then they had fire bugs. And Rico, again, he had to lose people in order to grow up and stuff like that.

Yeah, I thought it was fantastic film. And I think it was very much like you said, we're hoven looking at it and going, well this is clearly fascism and I need to pan it. Yeah. And given what you told me about his past, that makes absolute sense that he would react that way. Yeah. So. There that way. Yeah. So.

There we go. Cool. That's, I'm convinced. That, that's that particular comparison. Mm-hmm. I like it. I like it. Okay.

So what takeaways, now that we're, now that we're at this point in the conversation, what takeaways have you got? Uh, I think. You know, I do want to, uh, maybe this is the takeaway, the opening classroom scene. Okay. If you listen to the lecture that Michael Ironsides is giving,

yes. It is absolutely like the pointer scene to the ideology of the movie that he is trying to pan. Yeah. And I really, I've considered using just that scene when I talk government. Really? Yeah, because I like to find movie clips and stuff that are off beat or just not what you would expect. You know, obviously you do the dirt farmer one from Holy Grail. And stuff like that. But I'm not a vote for King. But I've thought of showing that particular scene, if I ever teach government. Oh yeah, yeah, I got no problem doing that. God knows I will. Yeah, but I just

the you know, I wonder what the fathers of Hiroshima would say. Well nothing, they're all dead. Exactly. And violence is the only authority. And you're I'm just like Wow, okay. I've got and political power is derived from barrel of a gun. Yeah, I'm like that's fascism, baby. You know, and so when I you know Yeah, so yeah, that's that's that's I really like that and I think that's the the thesis statement of his whole movie Which apparently was not the thesis statement of the book. No, so Yeah, so that's that's what I pulled so What are you reading? What do you want to recommend?

Well, I'm working on reading Dune, because I have in the process of working on this one, I have determined that we need to educate you on some literary science fiction, and a little bit of the history of the genre. And I think I figured out an angle on that that will work actually for the conceit of this podcast. Cool. And again, it's comparing the book to the film. Because the book was written in the 1960s. The film is so 80s, it fucking hurts. Oh, so you're doing that one, not the John Hurt one? Yeah, no. Oh, okay.

No, and I will mention the sci-fi mini series. Yeah. But the one that sticks to the popular imagination, the most is the Lynch film. Yes, it does. And part of what Inspiron Mineda did, this was listening to us talking about. TV series that should have ended differently.

And, you know, John Lynch and David Lynch. David Lynch, so. And Twin Peaks. Yeah. Is, is, yeah. What made me go, you know, Lynch did do, and that was a head trip. Yep, yep.

Okay, I think I have an idea for, yeah, so nice. So that'll be the next phase of your literary education. I like it, I like it. And then in your broader genre education, I gotta do something about Dr. Who, probably something having to do with the fact that Americans could never make it. Oh, I like this. It's it's it's it decidedly British. I like it already. I like it. So yeah

Cool So yeah, but right now I'm reading Dune in preparation to school you on it And I do I will say I highly recommend it. Mm-hmm And I do I will say I highly recommend it It was Visionary for a number of reasons that I don't want to spoil right now and as a space opera It now reads as pretty dated, but it is still a an entertaining read. Okay. So how about you? You know, I don't have anything off the top of my head quite honestly. As far as reading goes, so I would say this, I have started watching Supernatural. Yeah, I saw you posted about that. Yeah, and so it's it's fun. Yeah, it basically is a role-playing game put on TV

It's a hunter campaign. Yeah, yeah, like you said I don't know if you ever played Hunter, but it's no I played witch Hunter Which is which is kind of cool because it's set in the 1600s nice so in America. Okay, and so yeah Yeah, no hunter hunter the reckoning. Okay. Or hunter the vigil. There's a later addition of it is set to same universe as vampire, mage, werewolf. Nice.

So yeah. But yeah, it's a hunter campaign on TV. So that one's fun. I don't know if I would recommend watching it just yet quite honestly. Just, you know if I would recommend watching it just yet, quite honestly. Okay. You know, it is first season jitters. Okay.

You know, there's a little too much exposition of like every time they talk about a thing, it's like they explain it to each other and they both already know it. I'm like, okay guys, like who would be watching this? As a, like, but I get it, like as a casual fan, you do need that kind of exposition, but yeah. It's, yeah. You know, here's what I will recommend. Okay.

Start binging the Winter Soldier and Falcon. Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Because my God, like it is so dense and rich with it basically is taking on the twin ideas of racism and trauma in each character. And it is phenomenal. Okay. And the amount of white privilege that John Walker. I mean that actor deserves all the love in the world for doing such a good job of making you sympathize and hate. Okay. John Walker. I mean, he's doing a great job with him. All right. Really is. So, and there's so much good fan service in that series. Okay. So yeah, I would say watch that.

We're still working our way through a wand division. Oh, fantastic. And I'm, I mean, it's been long enough that I've been spending has already been spoiled for me. I know, I don't know all of the details, but I know, Broad Brush, you know, where it's going, but like I can't wait to get there. And my wife doesn't read the comics.

Yeah, well, she doesn't read nerd stuff on the internet. So she, she isn't exposed to spoilers. So she's just like, okay, wait. Hold on. So that's a different living room. Right, right. Wait. Yeah. How that's a different living room. Right, right. Wait. Yeah.

How is she able to change reality? Yeah. That's literally her power. Oh, that's not even, that's, no, no. Right. Okay. She totally got that. Okay.

But the, the, the, the details of the surrealism. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Where the things, there's like, okay, stop. So hold on. So last episode, shehuh, uh-huh. What were the things? You're just like, okay, stop. So hold on. So last episode, she was pregnant. Right. Now this episode, okay. Right. And, and piecing, you know, and, and, and doing the piecing together. Yeah. I was like, okay, yeah, that's, that's

hanky. And then we got to the point where we jump. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody who hasn't seen it yet. But then the episode where we go outside town. Yes. And everything. And then the meta gets really heavy. Yes. Because I'm rewatching the first two episodes from

like I was watching the first two episodes. They're was watching the first two episodes. They're actually watching it on a TV. Yep. Yeah, like the level of of meta in that series is absolutely amazing. And it is my concerted opinion that the writers, at least so far, were halfway through. The writers have not tripped on anything yet. Nor will they, and they're going to knock you sideways. It has all been very tightly constructed and they did an amazing, because this is the kind of meta

that if you miss something, it's gonna be glaring and it's all gonna fall apart and you're not gonna be able to follow it anymore. You don't wanna follow it anymore because like, no, you just shot it in the foot. It's like a Swiss watch. It's so perfectly put together. So, you know, it's amazing.

Good, I look forward to hearing your review of it when you're done with it. It's gonna pay off. Yeah All right, cool. Well, where can people find you on the social medias? People can find me on social media at EH Blaylock on Twitter and as Mr. Blaylock on Instagram and TikTok and They can find the two of us collectively and they can shout at both of us at once If you think our opinions

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