A Geek History of Time - Episode 113 - Finally Dune Part I

Episode Date: June 26, 2021

I'm not here to poke holes and suspended this belief. Anyway, they see some weird shit. They decide to make a baby. Now, Muckin' Merchant. Who gives a fuck? Oh, Muckin' which is a trickle, you know, baby. You know what it's called. Well, you know, uh, you really like it here. It's kind of nice and uh, it's not as cold as Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or Muckin' or M So yeah sure I think we're gonna settle. If I'm a peasant boy who grabs sword out of a stone.

Yeah. I'm able to open people up. You will, yeah. Anytime I hit them with it, right? Yeah. So my cleave landing will make me a cavalier. Good day, Spree. If system thought it was empty headed,

plubian trash, it trash is really good and gruey. Because cannibalism and murder pull back just a little bit, build walls to keep out the rat heads. And it's a little bit of a ground tool. A thrill and tent doesn't exist. Some people stand up quite a bit, some people stay seeing the white robots. But it just...

This is the Equal Fee. Alright, we're on the tour of the A. I'm at the Baylock. I am now on vacation as a world history and English teacher here in Northern California and I'm looking to find a job closer to home if you know know anybody in the greater Sacramento area and not too much greater by the way but you know anyway if you know anybody looking for anybody with my particular skill set, please do let us know here at the show. But yeah, I don't have a whole lot to report

other than that. Who are you and how are things going? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a local in Northern California high school Latin teacher. I'm not looking for more employment but amongst our our trove of listeners if any of you are local administrators looking to hire a very creative and imaginative slightly stodgy history teacher I think my partner here.

What do you gotta go with stodgy? Because it's true. I don't know what you're talking about. Uh-huh. I am. Thank you for proving it. So, um, oh, that's like my favorite thing on the internet right now is people like, you're proving my point for me. It's like, no, I'm not. You just have no imagination. But no, I'm up here having no imagination and enjoying what I can of my days.

They're pretty good days to enjoy. And so, yeah, I'm really looking forward honestly to taking the night off from teaching somebody else the thing. I can understand that. Yeah. Yeah. I would, you know, it's funny. I was thinking about the last episodes that we did. And I almost feel like I didn't quite hammer home enough the fact that it was all postmodernism all the time in that you had this small underpowered thing taking hold of objective power even though power was subjective. Yeah changing the whole thing in politics, that being Newt Gingrich. And then you also had that paralleled in wrestling, that being ECW. And the idea that your good guys are now assholes is an acceptance of the fact that you're

not going to win otherwise. And so all of these traditions and all of these, what's the word I'm looking for? Conventions are being broken. And here's the part that I think I really missed and kind of flood last time. Okay. When you do that, you have a knock on effect that you couldn't have possibly predicted. And it leads to some really ugly

places. Even though the conventions are there holding people down, even though the conventions are there as a tool of, I'm going to say oppression for lack of a better word right now. Okay. A tool of authority? Yes. And there are bureaucracy. At least you can point to them and everybody's can play by those rules. But the second that somebody doesn't play by those rules, it all goes out the window and it starts to be. Or over the top rope as the case may be. Yes, or off the balcony into a series of chairs. God almighty.

But I think what happens with that is that you end up having the authoritarianism creep in instead of authority. And I think, and that's why the referees were no longer necessary in most of the matches, because the authority inept as it was, and that's the whole referees job is to be inept. And to give you one more obstacle for the face to get over. Yeah. The ineptitude of the referees is no longer an issue because it's whoever has the stop sign. Or the kayak. Or the kayak, you know, and there's a huge problem with that because really all that is is a drift toward whoever holds the truncheon, whoever holds the foscas, is in charge and might makes right and it doesn't matter what these conventions are. It doesn't matter what your

conventions are. But like, you know, the fact that I'm a dick doesn't matter, the fact that I have the power and I know you're relying on this old system, but fuck you, I have the power. and I know you're relying on this old system, but fuck you, I have the power. That, I mean, it all comes back to the erosion of essentially democratic institutions. Yes. Like when you're talking about the intense, so meta, meta doesn't even describe it anymore.

It's like we took the meta and now we're getting meta with that. Yes. oh yeah. When you, on the one hand, is an intellectual exercise that can be very liberating. It can open imaginative vistas. There's all kinds of stuff that can be done when you choose to deconstruct.

Because it is deconstructionist. Like it is immensely deconstructed. Yes, yes. The problem is if you deconstruct without having a framework in place, like that, you're right. Without knowing, okay, look, I'm going to deconstruct this thing

in order to point out to you, the viewer, it's this thing, this lesson I'm going to deconstruct this thing in order to point out to you, the viewer, this lesson I'm trying to teach you, this theme I'm trying to get over. Yeah. If it's just, no, no, we're gonna rip this shit apart. Yeah, it's taking apart the stereo and not mapping out where stuff goes. And just putting it into a thermos, shaking it up,

and then dumping it out. Yeah. And then like, and walking out of the room. And wondering why you can't listen to dire straits anymore. Right. You know, what the fuck? Yes. And so, I think wrestling 100% followed that trajectory as did politics because society

was 100% going that way. And I think that in a world where that happens, you have a drift toward authoritarianism because the only thing that can fill that vacuum is a pack leader. Well, yeah, because when you've done away with all of the institutions that make democracy work, you can't expect democracy to work anymore. Like, that's what it comes down to.

Yeah. And so, you know, if I think that's why we need to be very aware, anytime we hear anybody as a pedagogue, decrying the systems that are maintaining democracy. If somebody is decrying the courts, not we have problems within the system. Right, you mean a demagogue, right? I mean, demagogue.

Okay, you said pedagogue. Pedagogue, frankly, yes, teachers too. Yes, teachers too. Because most of the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, yes teachers to because most of the the The authoritarians started off as teachers. Yeah, a lot of them. Yeah, so but no, I meant Demagogues. Okay, apologies. Yeah, yeah. The Demogorgon. Um, so, so the D&D players and the Stranger Things viewers will catch that reference. Have a Steve Rogers moment. But so we need to pay really close attention. And I think this is the reason you and I, as historians, both went, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up.

Yeah. Well, back up, the moment the Trump campaign got started. Well, the moment the Trump campaign got started. Well, the moment the Trump campaign got started because then it wasn't just covert, not an insensitive hidden, but in a sense of not noticed. It wasn't latent anymore. Yes, it was blatant.

Yes. That he was really genuinely attacking the institution, the press, directly, which isn't an arm of the state, but it is the faith of the state for a reason. Yes, it is the mechanism by which we as citizens know what the fuck our government is doing. Yes. So attacking that institution, attacking the court system, working to subvert

and then dominate the courts. Perverting the legislative system. Yeah. And, and, and all of that. I mean, just the moment he started talking about those things, the way he did, I know both of us were like, I'm, I've seen this, yeah, this rhymes. Yep. And, you know, well, you know, you shouldn't bandy about the word Nazi. Okay, look, when he's cribbing mine cop. Yeah. Like, what, what do you, what do you expect? Like, what do you want me to do?

Now is the time. Like, what comparison am I supposed to make there? Right. Like, and I will, I will go one step further and you're gonna love the twist around that this becomes. Okay. Talk about the swerve. Yeah.

What I have just done has been to make an argument for conservatism. Yeah. Well, okay. You know what I have. And, but it's conservatism, it's, it's conservatism, the actual philosophy, the look out for guys like Robespear conservatism.

It's not, it's not very goldwater. It's not reactionism. No, it's not, it's not American conservatism. Right. Which isn't actually conservative. It's Edmund Burke conservatism. Yes. It's, it's that, and I don't like that.

I've come to this. But I do recognize that you do need a saucer to cool a cup because the the swing happens because somebody co-ops populism I don't think pop populism was a problem, but somebody co-ops populism and attacks the institutions and conservatives Want to keep the Institutions in place real conservatives. Yes genuine conservative conservatives. Yes, they want to keep the institutions in place because they know what that wobble does to social order

Yeah, and I think that's very valuable. So I am arguing in favor of Countouts disqualifications having a ref who has some authority in the ring and not really spending too much time outside of the ring. Yeah, Brett Hart. Yeah, okay. I'm in favor of Brett Hart. Yes.

Yeah. And as much as I love Mick Foley and as wonderful as I think he is, I think he was a part of the thing that enabled the corrosion of the institutions with the rest of the rest. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. And then you can we can go back if you want the the same thing could be said about politics. Although I have no love whatsoever. Nobody involved in that process that you would say. Yeah, so, but anyway, so you know, I love him, but yeah, no, that process that you would say. So, but anyway. So, I love him, but, yeah, no, that does it.

But, yes, what you were talking about with deconstructionism, when you deconstruct something, and there are things, here's the liberal, okay? And the classic, like, the leftist, quite honestly, not the liberal. Maybe I made an argument for liberalism. We'll pretend. I think I would.

I would. I would. I made an argument for this. Yeah. But, the leftist in me will say there are Institutions that absolutely need deconstruction and destruction and it's okay to have that chaos because it leads to freedom Yeah, and that's why it's okay to have matches that Our strap matches. That's why it's okay to have battle royals. That's why it's okay to have

the occasional Texas tornado three-way match. That's why it's okay to have gimmick matches. I'm cool with. But here's the thing. But it's still within the two. To refer to. Going back, I don't remember how many episodes in that series. It is a scripted chaos where everybody knows what the conventions are going to be. So that is liberalism. That is liberalism. I know what I'm doing here. Yeah, no, I think you make a compelling argument. As the token conservative of the two of us, as the token conservative of the two of us, I think it's important for us to understand that we need to preserve those institutions which are safeguarding the common wheel,

those that are doing their job that are that are that are acting as a break on And social order is part of it, but those that are acting as a break on you know Demagoguery. Yes, or are ones that that we need to be very careful about safeguarding we We also, and this is where I'm, I don't know if this is conservative liberal or what this is, but I will agree with you that when we find like in our court system as is, we know that cash bail is fucked up. Yes. We know that that institution within our legal system

it has become a tool of oppression. It is not working toward the common wheel. Right. And so as a conservative, we need to that needs to be changed. Yeah. We need to take that and figure out some other way to accomplish that task. Yes. And we need to have, and this is where I'm gonna go back to being a conservative again, we need to have a plan for, we need to have something to replace.

We can't just walk in with a hammer and go, okay, no, it's fucked up, smash. And now wait for chaos to bring us something new, which I, you know, for some folks of a particularly revolutionary bent, well, you know, that chaos is better than what we have now. Sometimes there can be an argument for that. But when you're talking about a system that's fucked up, Ed, that has been part of something as systematically bad as what has happened with our legal system for the last 400 years, then I think, no, you need to have a better plan because we've already shown that no, no, no, we have the capacity to make this a lot worse.

Yeah. Yeah. have the capacity to make this a lot worse. Yeah, you know, and so smashing shit for the sake of smashing shit is in my opinion, not a good idea. Like I can, I can, I can comfortably feel good about making an argument that, that deconstructing shit socially speaking, just for the sake of deconstructing shit is not not. Okay, so you're making, I would say you're making a conservatives version of the argument in letters from a Birmingham jail. You don't simply object to something because it's inconvenient, you don't simply smash it because you want to. If you're going to smash it, it had better be toward a good. Yeah. And if you're going to oppose stuff, as King would say, from that letter, it needs to be,

you have to be grounded in a moral reasoning. Yes. So, yeah, I think I can, well, I mean, there are plenty of conservatives at March with King. Yeah, oh, yeah. So, but they're also way more who didn't because they saw that changes being a threat to this is yeah Well, you know, and the thing is yeah, and and you know the thing is any being Extreme on either end of the spectrum means you're gonna be getting in the way of of the common good

Yes, and and and I'm not saying that as as I'm not saying that as an argument for the tepid, yeah. Not saying that as an argument for the tepid middle. Right. You know, nobody wants to see a match with Brad Armstrong in it. You just don't. No, he's no. No, fuck that. So, you know, I genuinely, the thing is,

I actually was, I don't remember, in the midst of an internet argument that we were both involved in earlier today, I actually wound up kind of coming to the conclusion that, no, you know what? False moderation. Yes. Is a worse ill than

Extr certainly extremism on on the left probably even extremism on the right false moderation false moderation doesn't commit genocide It's well, but okay it enables it. Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm gonna say committing it is worse than enabling okay fair But yes, I take your point and you're still right along with letters from a burned down. And well yeah, and the thing is, you know, in the circles that we both kind of run around in social media, everybody wants to, you know, tank on moderates. Like just shit on moderates left, right in center.

And I understand why because so many moderates are false moderates their moderate for the sake of of Keeping the Pete like don't scare the horses. Yeah, yeah, well, you know I'm gonna scare the horse cuz this guy is literally hanging to his death. Yeah, so yeah, I think I think we need to scare the horse Yeah, and and the thing is I am as a matter of fact, a moderate. Like, I, my economically, I'm a distributist, which I've talked about a little bit before, but like, it's a third way solution to the problems that are endemic in late-stage capitalism and, you know know industrial society. And and what

it basically amounts to to weigh over simplify it is you you want to have a market where people can can act as their own agent in the market. But you need to make sure that those individuals are protected within that market and you need to make sure that those individuals are protected within that market. And you need to make sure that the individual has the economic power within that to exert their freedom within the market. So, so it's like you're a unionist. Well, yeah. Unions are a central cornerstone of distributist ideology. One of the phrases from distributism is the worker needs to own their tools. I like it. You need to have ownership of the means to make your living. So if you work in a corporate setting, for example, distributists advocate very strongly for employee ownership of corporations.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And that's, which is a co-op, basically. Yeah. It's so, so yeah, I'm a moderate, but the thing is. I like that a co-op is moderation. Yeah. I like that a co-op is moderate. Yeah. Well, because it's not, okay, the state is just going to take ownership of everything and, you know, seize all private property. And, you know, you have ownership of private property, right? Like, you know, everybody who wants to call people leftists in our country, they don't understand what real leftism actually is. Leftism is, no, no, the government, the people, are going to seize the means of production. And it'll be, you know, centralized. And, the government, the people are going to seize the means of production and it'll be centralized and you know, they're different. Well, who are they seizing it from?

Yeah. And how much, how much say do the people actually have? Yeah. And if the people have a tremendous amount of say and you are seizing it from the billionaire class, play on. But what I'm saying, that's what leftism is. I'm not saying, I support this. I don't support this.

I'm saying real genuine leftism would be, no, no, you don't own this anymore and no we're not going to pay you for it. No, no, fuck off. Right. Right. And on the other extreme is economically, is, you know, totalize a fair Hong Kong was, you know, the ideal economic experiment. Right. You know, you don't work, you don't eat.

That's just the way it is. Right. Yeah. With all the talks. Even though we have all the food. Yeah, with all the talks, the ableist, racist, colonialist, everything is bullshit that goes with that.

So, distributism is a solution in the middle of those. So, it's a moderate solution. The thing is, it has a moral fucking center. And if you want to claim you're a moderate as a way to shut other people up when they're making a moral argument about their fucking identity and their right to be people functioning in

society, then you're not a fucking moderate. There's your false moderation. No matter how much you want to try to dress yourself up as being, well, you know, I just think everybody's, you know, I don't want to go too far on either side. No, this is not an issue you can go too far this way on. Yeah, no, I agree. Like the moderate, when it comes to genocide is like, well, can is not an issue you can go too far this way on. Yeah, no, I agree with you. Like the moderate, uh, when it comes to genocide, it's like, well, can you, can you just kill three million? Yeah. And it's like, no, no. So, yeah, no, I, I guess, and like, you know, in any argument that we, that we got

into with this person today, um, having, having this individual making a statement that I compared to a mirror image of the Jedi Council. Well, no, we'll give you the title of woman, but we won't let you in this space. Yeah. Like, fuck you. Either trans women are women or they're not. And if you're trying to say, well, you know, I totally support them identifying as women,

I totally decided to do that, but, you know, all the quotient. Which is kind of a weird lacy fairy libertarian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, quoting. And then quoting a 2015 study that's been disproven or thrown seriously into question at the very least about trans women in sports and being like, well, you know, but they shouldn't be able to compete here.

Right. No, no, you don't get to do this on a case-by-case basis when we're talking about identity. Right. Either they're women, which by the way, they fucking are. Yes. Or they're not. Anything you say that says, well, you know, they're women, but not like this As soon as you I heard this quote today

The second that anybody says but everything they said before that is a lie. Yeah, yes You know or is them them lying. Yeah, which is true. Yeah, so yes as far as professional wrestling goes You don't simply deconstruct it and enjoy the chaos because if you do, you end up with just kind of garbage in and out of a ring and to the point where it lost the audience's interest eventually, like it started to tank. Even though it won the Monday Night Wars for Vince McMahon, this canned version of ECW and shifting toward that, it ultimately, and it killed the competition, it ultimately didn't serve the audiences very well because not because competition was necessary. That wasn't the problem. I will say they lined up on different brands. Don't get me wrong.

It was more that the quality of the wrestling actually went down and now transpose that over to politics and being a dick, okay, well, just because the guy in my, the party that I prefer, just because the guy who is protecting people's rights is, is protecting people's rights, but he's also being a dick. You're going down a very dangerous road. I would point out that Obama used more drones than George Bush, not because he wanted to kill more brown people, but because the technology was available to him throughout his entire presidency. As opposed to halfway through. Halfway through, yeah. You know, and Bush had a couple years

where he wasn't bombing brown people yet. I would also point out that Obama used Facebook and Twitter and used all the flaws inherent therein. And when Trump did it, everybody noticed that it was happening and they were like, well, we can't clamp that down because Obama, after this election, after Trump loses to Hillary, then we're gonna fix it all.

Yeah. And that's the problem with utilizing a kayak in the first match. Yeah, well, because where do you go from there? You go up three tables. Yeah. And then, you know, yes. Well, you know, and what you wind up,

what you wind up having in a teacherly manner Mm-hmm is We had we had we had a we had a new teacher first year teacher a couple of years ago at my site who very very smart guy Fresh out of teacher school, you know New is stuff backward and forward of. And then he got into our classroom, this is science teacher. And he had his first really serious set

of classroom management challenges. He had gone through his student teaching in a very Tony upscale neighborhood at a school with kids who don't present the kind of challenges that kids at my site do more frequently because we have kids who have much more significant issues they're dealing with trauma at home. I mean like all kinds of stuff. Institutional, you've got generational, you've got all kinds of stuff that 100% get in the way of kids learning.

Yeah. And turn them into little fucking dicks. Yeah. Because they're also middle schoolers. Yeah, which, though. Never helps. No. So he got into our classroom and had a series of first relatively minor by standards of anybody more

experienced, relatively minor class, class management issues. And then I don't know why my phone woke up there because of a word that you said about being set of things. So anyway, he had a number of relatively minor challenges that he was not prepared for. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so the issue wound up becoming, after a while, his relationship with the students was one where he would go to nine. Did he need a clear option?

Yeah. He'd go to nine on a scale of up to 10. He'd go to nine immediately. Yep. And what we kept trying to tell him was, okay, no, look, you need some middle. To set back off. Yeah. Because if you're starting at nine,

yes. You don't have anywhere to go. Right, yeah. And I'm not, I don't want to tell anybody, like, you need to change your personality in order to do this job. Because no, you need to, you need to, you need to figure out what your way of doing this is. But also, don't let this job change your personality. Yeah, don't let this job turn you into that guy. And, you know, and so it's the same thing.

If you start at Zany Bonkers, what the fuck? You have nowhere to go. In a performance art, you know, sparkly murder gymnastics. Yes. That cuts you off. Eventually there's a ceiling. You can't, you know, unless you're gonna spend the money

to have Vince McMahon bring in a helicopter to drop you through the arena skylight into the middle of the ring, which- Funny you say that. WCW did that with a guy who you're gonna be talking about tonight, actually. Really? Yeah, sting.

Nice. Nice. Only I'm not actually gonna be talking about sting. Oh, okay. Well, I kind of, he'll probably get mentioned at some point in our conversation, but it's not the focus. Okay. So Yeah, no, if you if you blow the roof off of everything right out the gate Artistically, you're left with nowhere to go right politically and sociologically You're left without a building to do things in. Mm-hmm.

And that's actually even worse. Yes. Because then, the whole, you have eroded the entire structure that allows the social contract. And that's the kicker. Yes. And if you get rid of the social contract, you, again, you've lost your audience. Yeah. And it becomes authoritarianism and just competing authoritarian efforts, regardless of

ideology. Yeah. And it degenerates into tribalism. Yes. Which is pretty much what happened. Like nobody cared how the match was going for John Cena. It was, let's go Cena, Cena sucks. Let's go Cena, Cena sucks. And you had different voices competing with that during the match, regardless of the things that were happening in the ring.

It started to be about the audience, not the match. Yeah. And I think that is, you know, it's more about victory is the greatest morality, not, not morality. Well, and not policy. Yeah. You know, and so yes. So anyway, so like I said, short version, that's basically what happened. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah, no. I appreciate that. And I'm, I mean, we're looking at the clock right now and kind of, oh, well shit, there's half a session.

Half an episode. But, what I think, I think it's important to come back and make that point because I agree. Yeah, I think at the end of all that analysis, I think that's, it's good to, you know, check for understanding at the end, like, yes, to use a teaching buzz phrase. So now onto new business. Yes, as it were.

Let's move the agenda. Yeah. So I have been talking for several episodes now, and I've told everybody, go out've told everybody go out read the book, read the book, do your homework, read the book. So tonight, we're actually, I'm gonna do it. We're gonna talk about Dune. And to preface this conversation,

first thing I wanna ask you, I know, because you've said it before, that you have not read the book. I have not read the book. Okay. And for the purposes of those in our audience who are already familiar with dinner, you're finally getting to it. I just want to make clear.

To tune in next week. Thank you very much for a geek history. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Speaking of being an asshole. No. No. I'm only going, we're going to be spending several episodes. Speaking of being an asshole, no. No. I'm only going, we're gonna be spending several episodes,

even if we had not spent half an hour putting a Coda on the last series. I'm gonna be spending several episodes just talking about the novel, Dune. Okay. Okay. Now for those, for those in in our audience, we're fans, I'm gonna explain this to you now,

because they already know this. There is a series of novels starting with Dune, and then Herbert wrote Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, and Chapter House Dune. So there's this, this, this, a lot of Dune and chapter house Dune. So there's this a lot of Dune series of series of books and the series gets esoteric and deeply philosophical and he goes off at about 19 different directions. Does he lose

himself in it? Like is it? did he have a plan and this was like, you know, you know, I'm thinking Tolkien. He knew what he was doing the whole way. Oh yeah, no, Tolkien, Tolkien was clearly an outline. Right. Did Herbert just kind of, the characters took him where he wanted them? Herbert knew what it is he wanted to say. Did he suffer from not having an editor? And he wanted to say, I think, I don't, I wouldn't say he suffered from not having an editor. I think the things he wanted to say necessitated an awful lot of building out. He took some kernels of some ideas and ran in a very, I'm gonna say 60s counterculture kind of way out to some very significant kind of weird extreme kind of developments. But, and so on in another episode somewhere down the line

I can talk about the series as an aggregate Now so so Herbert wrote the series of books and it's it's this touchstone within the genre It's this incredibly seminal work. He won all kinds of awards for it Sure And and it's been massively influential. I'm going to talk about that later in this series. But, um, he, he died. His son back in the 2000s, got together with Kevin J. Anderson. I'd name I know you recognize being a star wars man. Got together with Kevin J. Anderson, and they wrote a series of prequels. Okay.

House of Trades, House Harkin and House Karina. I didn't read the third one I got through. Trades and Harkin and it kind of stopped. But it was mound, House of Trades and Hound. Nice. House, yes, very welcome. Yeah. And then after that, they wrote another series of novels that were about an event within the universe's history called the Bukley and G.

Hod. Oh boy. That like they said, okay, well all this stuff that dad, you know, kind of hinted at and talked about, we're going to, no, no, we're just going to tell that story. And here. And here it is, we're gonna write it all down. Okay. And then, and I'm trying to remember the order in which they published these things, but they did that. And they also did a sequel trilogy to the Dune series that involved the main characters of the original books, being kind of cloned and kind of resurrected kind of weird xxian play locksy technologies weird anyway and it was called the mountain trilogy yeah very well yeah good job good job really really or the seroco trilogy sandstorms exactly they made a mountain out of yeah so um

and and the thing is I'm going to be kind of unkind. Kevin J. Anderson is a good writer. Is he? Well, okay. I genuinely don't know if he is because I hated all his Star Wars stuff and you know me. Oh, yeah, it's really like garbage. Yeah, it was necessary reading because that's all we fucking had. Yeah, well, I'm giving it to my kids to read just because again, they should know the mythology. Okay, all right. But yeah, it's. You're bringing them up in the face.

I am. Absolutely. But before the great schism. Yeah, the Disney Schism. The great Disney. Disnum. Nice, nice. But yeah, I was massively disappointed by his books that he wrote.

Okay. Even the anthologies that he was a part of. Oh, well. Yeah, the tales from. I honestly, they were weak. Now, I don't know if that's because he's a weak writer or if that's simply because there are some sandboxes, some authors complain.

And there's some sandboxes. Well, here's what I'm gonna say. Yeah. If you didn't like his Star Wars stuff, don't read his doing stuff. Okay. Because it's very clearly Kevin J. Anderson's work. Okay. Um, and I do not generally agree very often with the writers of the Penny Arcade webcomic. Okay. Um, but one of the two of them

is is a huge dune fan. And there's an episode of the web comic where you see his analog in the comic, his character in the comic sitting in an overstuffed armchair in a clearly very Tony study. And he's got a mug of something in his hand and he says,

many of you have written to me to ask what I think about the prequel trilogy being written by Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert. And after long consideration, my opinion of the series is, and in the last, he's phoming at the mouth in the last, in the last frame of the comic, his eyes are red, bugbed out and he's screaming. They are fucking his corpse. Do you understand me? They are fucking his corpse. It got to the point where it was really clearly, everybody loves this series. People are going to keep buying stuff that has this on the cover. So we're going to keep writing these novels and we know we have an audience and we can make back. Right. And it became a money making exercise.

So, anyway, so, so, but that's all the expanded universe stuff of it. The initial novel is what I'm going to be talking about. Okay. And later on, we can talk about the novel versus the movie. Mm-hmm. Because that's kind of the dynamic that got me thinking about doing this. Right. You in the first place was when we were talking about Starship Troopers.

Yeah, yeah. But for now, the focus here primarily is on the one book, because it's the entry way into this universe. Okay. It is the cusp of all of these things happening in science fiction. Okay. It is the seminal work that influenced all this other stuff. Like you could get rid of the rest of the original

Dune trilogy and the memes that we see on the internet all the time anyway, would still be there. Okay, okay. Because when you see IR Dune cat eye I control Spice with the, you know, cat wrapped up in the blanket, like the sausage with the, you know, all the blue eyes. Sure.

That's a reference to the, like if you know the first book, you know what that means. Sure, yeah, yeah. And even if you don't know the first book, you've seen the movie you get. If you've seen the movie, you get it. Yeah.

And even if you haven't read the book or seen the movie, if you've been on the internet long enough, yeah. You know the movie, you get it. Yeah. And even if you haven't read the book or seen the movie, if you've been on the internet long enough, yeah. You know the reference, and somebody has probably said, oh, it's a science fiction novel from back in the 60s about it. Right. You are conversing with it.

The spice and worm. Yeah. You're conversing with the things that are involved. Right. And, and that's why I think it's important to talk about the book, think it's important to talk about the book because it's become such a huge touchstone, not just in the science fiction fandom community,

but in our popular culture. And I mean, a big part of that certainly was the David Lynch movie. Right, that captured everybody's visual imagination. Yes, very much. And everything that probably came after has been a response to that one way or another. And awful largely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, visually certainly. So, so. And isn't there a movie coming out? Yes, there is. And oh my god, I'm so excited for it. I cannot be good in telling you. I can't tell you. Good timing.

Cannot begin to tell you. Like, like the internal squeeing is so loud. I don't know enough about Timothy Schalamet to know what I'm gonna think about his Paula Trades. Okay. But all of the other casting decisions they've made are good. Are amazing.

Okay. So yeah, I'm way stoked. Okay. I'm very excited for it. And visually, the bits of it that we've seen visually, it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a very major departure from the David Lynch vision. And I think it's gonna be closer

in a great many ways to the pictures that Herbert had in his own head. Okay. When he was writing the book, I think it's gonna look a lot more like what Herbert himself was imagined. Well, I'm gonna leave my next question out of it because I'm sure you're gonna get to it,

but I would point out that in the new Dune also Zendaya is gonna be in it. Yes. And I would love to see her not play Smarmi Mary Jane. Yeah. Not that I minded Smarmi Mary Jane. I think to add something to the Spider-Man movies. Yeah, but

And also I noticed that it's gonna you gonna have Dave Batista. Yeah, that's the Beast Raban and Josh Brolin. Yeah And so and still in Scar's guard. Yeah, so that's four people in the MCU. Yeah coming together now and fair and Yeah, yeah, and then yeah in the MCU coming together now in fairness. And I'm in. Yeah. And then. In fairness, Jason Momoa's Dunkin' Idaho, which I also cannot wait to see. And in fairness, all of the MCU is like every other actor now. So yeah, well, yeah, it's become the 1200 pounds of. But it's also Javier Bardem.

Yep. And who has been in, oh God, what was he in that I remembered? It'll come to me in a bit. Okay, but also What do you call it Oscar Isaac? Yeah Star Wars fame. Yeah, so yeah, it has Duke Leito. Yes, not not merely not merely in the film, but as one of the central characters of the early parts of the story. Spoilers, he doesn't make it through the whole thing. I'm going to say the book is 55 years old, so I'm not going to spend there on spoilers anymore. So now I'm going to admit, like from the outset that

I have really been intimidated by this topic. Like when we first got together to talk about yeah topics that we were going to be doing. I remember you two years ago. I specifically said, I'm going to have to do some about doing, but oh God, I don't know how I'm going to get a biting angle. Yep, yep. And, thing is, it's because, just like I said, it's this cultural juggernaut. It's this thing within science fiction that it is one of those works that you can say, well, okay, this was pre-dune and this was post-dune.

Okay. It's in the same category as classics of the genre, like the Lord of the Rings, like the Purne series by Anne McCaffrey, which interestingly is a less than a decade after Dune. The 60s and 70s were a watershed kind of period for science fiction in the genre, especially literary science fiction in the genre. There's a whole lot going on. And you know, it is one of those things that has echoed down through the genre ever since. Okay.

And so, and a big part of the reasoning for that is it was one of the first science fiction novels that really got into really really big ideas. Okay. Science fiction up until the 50s was largely formulaic, and I'm not saying it all was, but I'm saying I'm saying the overwhelming majority of stuff that was getting published in the pulps, the overwhelming majority of stuff that was the genre, was adventure stories with a scientific twist to them that had been, okay, well, you know, I'm gonna teach this, like very early science fiction was, I'm gonna teach this scientific principle,

by putting it into this, this adventure story. Sure. Sure. I mean, in many ways, you're talking- To Douglas in the 20th century. You're talking about making something fit for mass public consumption, typically in an anthology as well. Yeah.

And- In an anthology magazine, a pulp magazine. That ultimately echoes songs on the radio. Yeah. They all had to be basically within two minutes. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and and, and and, and, and, and and, and and and, and and, and and, and and and, and and and, and and, and and and and and, and and and and, and and and and and and and, and and and and, and and and and, and and and and and and and, and and and and and and and, and and and and, and and and and and and and, and and and to radio mass consumption yet. Yeah, and I know that people are going to come at me like in their heads as I say this about so much of science fiction during this time period being formulaic and they're going to be, well, you know, what about Lensman? What about, you know, Highline's other stuff? What about this at the end? I'm going to say, here's the thing, we remember the works that stood out. Mm-hmm. The overwhelming, just like you're talking about about music on the radio, if you were actually to go back and find a recording of 12 hours of popular radio music from the 50s, there'd be so much shit on there that nobody remembered. Yes, because it came, was

consumed, yeah, it was okay, and it was gone in a flash. The stuff that we hear now on oldies stations is the, no, no, this for some reason has residents. This for some reason has staying power. This is exceptional for this one reason or another, you know, and the same and the same is true with literature. You know, the number, the number of books that went out of print and were completely forgotten. The number of pulp magazines that were shredded burned, whatever thrown away in Atlanta. Absolutely. You know, so it's the same kind of thing.

So what we remember is the stuff that's exceptional. And the stuff that we hold up as classics of the genre are even more exceptional. And Dune is that. Okay. And, you know, so number number one it's this big thing and everybody because it's so important everybody has said something about it like literary critics science fiction website science fiction it's become a touchstone. It's become a touchstone. And for a really long time, I was like, I don't know what I can say that a dozen other

people haven't already said. Because it's been analyzed front-left, up, down, you know. Sure. And critique and explained that even analysis of the book's tropes has become full of tropes of its own. Like, okay, well, this person is homing in on the hydraulic empire angle of the spice, and so they're going to be talking about the Middle East and this and the other. Or, well, this person is going to be looking at the white savior trope within it and all this kind of stuff

So so there are there are tropes within the analysis of the tropes and right right um, and so I had to get over the urge to originalism and and just find my own hook on it and and hopefully that's that's going to start to stand out as we're discussing well, and you know, uh not not to stroke you too much here, but you're going to be teaching a seminal work to somebody who has no real context or connection to it. That's in itself going to, you know. Yeah, no, indeed, that's true.

So, and then the second reason this was so intimidating and I've touched on it already, is this book is just so fucking dense. It has layers like a lasagna with every layer packed full of meaty bits and no small amount of cheese. And it takes itself, the whole book takes itself so seriously. Now is that a convention of the time, or is that specific to Herbert?

I think a little of Column A, a little of Column B. Okay. It is the product of planetary romance, which was this, which is the foundation of space opera, which is the foundation of Star Wars, Buckarajers, all that stuff. You know, John Carter of Mars. Sure. Those stories were all done on this, on the sweeping romantic scale,

and the heroes were larger than life, and everything was, you know, the pitch of everything was at 11, and the game was way high, you know. And so it's coming out of that genre. And I think, I think from having recently now re-read it again, I almost get the feeling like Herbert was consciously kind of commenting on it. Okay. But he was also talking about some stuff that was really clear.

He was like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a big fucking deal. And, and so there's, there's, there's this kind of tension between how much is he playing that up for effect and how much of that is, no, no, he is, he is, he is himself taking it that seriously. Okay. He's kind of living in that weird border territory between the two. And in wrestling, we'd call that ribbing on square. taking it that seriously. Okay. He's kind of living in that weird border territory between the two. And in wrestling we'd call that ribbing on the square. You're actually taking it seriously, but if anybody asks you, no, no, no, no, yeah, pretty much, yeah, that's a good way of taking it. So the two urges for me are either to try to match that seriousness which a lot of commentary is done it gets treated as capital S serious capital B business

All kinds of critics like it is it's a lot of a lot of people you know treat it as because I mean it is this very important work within the genre It really is this mark where a lot of stuff kind of crystallized but You know they they they want to talk about it as a scholarly work full of deep thoughts and big ideas. Mm-hmm. Or the other, the other way to go is to mock it to heck and go on for its pomposity and it's, and it's overwrought gravitas.

Um, there's a third path, which is our show, which would be to kind of do both. Yeah, like look at its pomposity as an artifact of the time in which it was done. Yeah, funny you should say that because my next paragraph says, true to the form of this show, I'm going to kind of do both because I think it deserves a buff

because it is, as I've said now repeatedly, it is this important moment in the development of the genre. And it does, he does talk about these really important big philosophical ideas, these ideas about governance, these ideas about the relationship between power, like you're talking about postmodernism, so much meditation on power, so much meditation on power. Okay. So much meditation on power and the nature of power and how absolute power ultimately winds up becoming limiting.

Now you can see that, yeah. Yeah, and this, I mean, just, oh my god. When did he write this? When did this come out? 65, published in 65. He wrote it between 63 to 64. I wonder if he'd seen that episode of Twilight Zone

about the dictator, where the guy is clearly Castro, but not? It was probably, because I mean, he's crap by his, yeah. He probably, what I would venture to guess is, if he did see it, Herbert kind of being the guy that he was, I'm sure he already had those ideas in his head, but he looked at it and went, oh, oh, yes, like that. Yes, you know, because

yeah. And that's a great example of kind of how, how those ideas were all, were floating around in the mass consciousness. And so it's a, it's a very important work in early what is called soft science fiction. It's a massive influence both within science fiction and beyond, even if you, as I mentioned earlier, if you, even if you haven't read the book or seen all or any of the films, you probably know the first line or two

of the litany against fear. I will not fear fear is the mind killer. I know when you say it fears the little death that brings total oblivion. Okay, I know fear I will let it pass through me and over me and through me. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I like it in the space that has left only I will remain. Oh, man, I kind of want to put that in Latin now. You could probably find somebody who's already done it and then you take their translation You've seen reference to references to sandworms or the spice melons. Yeah, yeah any number of other meme-friendly tidbits out of the book right

At the same time it is still to It's overwrought. It's melodramatic and it places. It's a hard read Yeah, it takes effort. Again though, you told me it was in the 60s. So there you go, yeah. Yeah, the characters tell each other whole chapters worth of exposition. Their inner monologues all sound artfully composed. Oh, okay. In his own head, the protagonist sounds like

a Shakespearean protagonist. And all of those big ideas mean that there are lots of lines of print dedicated to heavy philosophizing at the expense of the action and and sometimes of the pacing of the story. Okay. So it deserves a bit of mockery too. Sure. So altogether then it's a great subject for us to get into. And so, like we have done before, I want to start by leaving the book completely behind, going into the history of the world at the time that Herbert was writing it. And I'm going to start actually by talking about Herbert's career. Okay. So, he started publishing stories in pulp magazines in the 40s.

Okay. His earliest works were not science fiction. They were started publishing stories in pulp magazines in the 40s. Okay. His earliest works were not science fiction. They were adventure pulp stories. Okay. And then he got into science fiction in the 50s. I, I, I'm going to make a guess here. Yes. Based on the other authors that you have chosen to highlight from this same era. Yeah. Howard. Yeah. He's just by the way. Yeah. He's the biggest one. Yeah, yeah.

Well, and then prior to that was. When we were talking specifically about the pulps. Yeah, yeah. And then also Starship Troopers guy. Finally. Okay. So, why do they all start with H? First of all?

That's a good quote. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Talk about pattern on the wallpaper. Second of all, I am going to guess that given the, I remember seeing parts of the movie. Okay. Given the focus of conquest, empire, stuff like that. Okay. I'm gonna guess that he was in the Navy. I gotta let that back up. I don't recall the detail. I don't I think he he said he started writing in the 40s so that tells me he if he was in the Navy he would have been done by then. Yeah. Which means he missed the war. Yeah. But I I'm gonna guess that he was a baby Maybe and I'm also gonna guess that because he started what writing adventure pulp first that his childhood was unsettled I'm gonna guess both of those things

Okay, so it's it's kind of spooky He served in the CB's for six months as a photographer. What are CB's? They are the engineering, they're like the Navy's version of the Corps of Engineers. Oh, okay, okay. And so he served as a photographer in the CB's during World War II, got a medical discharge. Wait, during World War II though,

so I was all on his years. Yeah, okay. So he was in during a war. And his childhood was, he ran away from home in 1938 to live with an aunt in Salem, Oregon. So yeah, his home environment was not great due to the Great Depression according to Wikipedia.

Okay, so he was born 1920. So he was notably younger than the other guys that we've talked about. So in 38, he ran away to his aunts, you said? Yes. So that would have made it in 18. Yeah. So, okay.

He graduated from high school in Salem. Or I'm gonna lie to better age in order to get a newspaper job. Oh, yeah. Wait, graduated from high school in Salem, Oregon, light about his age in order, you get a newspaper job. Oh, yeah. Wait, did somebody else we talk about? No. No, okay. Not that I can talk about. Not working for a newspaper, no.

Yeah, I know. Okay, so, okay, I'm, okay. I, I, I'm wrong about, I, I'm right about the branch, but I'm wrong about his time of service. Yes. I would have thought that he didn't see combat combat and or whether whether or not he was in a combat zone as a CB. Well, you said medical discharge. So I assumed but okay. Yeah. But yeah, medical medical discharge could could be wounded could be any

could be injured. Yeah. Through his back out doing something. You know, Okay. So yeah. So he's, he's in a similar stripe in a number of ways with with the other guys. Yeah. With with Highland. He's kind of a portmanteau of both. Cause you know, a little bit unsettled childhood and well, howards, howards childhood was very settled, but very unhappy. Yes. Yes. So good point. You know, there's, but it's, it's, it's, six to one half of the potato potato, but, uh, so it's interesting, though, that you bring up the parallel with Heinlein, because Heinlein is one of his stated biggest influences. He himself said Heinlein's science fiction work was, was a huge influence on his own four A's, early four forays into the genre.

Sure. Also, Pull Anderson and Jack Vance were big names. Okay. You may or may not recognize Jack Vance. I'm sure you don't know Pull Anderson because of the literary sci-fi geek stuff. Vance is an important one. Number one, because Jack Vance, his work, the dying earth, was itself a huge influence on, uh, the imagination of Gary Guy-Gax.

Oh. Okay. And so, and I may have mentioned this in passing in other times, in other episodes, but the whole idea of, as a wizard, I can memorize these spells and cast this many spells before I forget them And I have to study to relearn them. Uh-huh. That is a fancy and it's referred to as fancy and magic because that's how Wizardry worked in the weird eldritch nature of his his dying earth series. Okay Vance is also very notable here specifically within the context of us getting to doon Because he was a planetary romance guy, John Carter of Mars. Okay, okay. Yeah, swashbuckling adventure in space. Right, right. And he was a contemporary of Herbert's and the novel Big Planet, which I can get into later when we actually talk about influences and everything, is clearly a very big influence on Arrakis and Dune. So now Herburtz first published novel, Dragon in the Sea, was originally published as a

serial in a stounding magazine starting in November of 55. Now by this time, the pulps, as we refer to them as the pulps, had died out. The market had essentially trashed. The adventure stories moved into comic books and science fiction became its own thing in in digest magazines and astounding was one of them at the time and then over the course the next several decades the number of digest magazines shrank right until in 2000 there were like five of them left and so dragon in the Sea touched on ideas of conflict over oil.

This is in 55. Well, okay, real quick. Where is Herbert from? Pacific Northwest. Okay, so he's an American. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we did overthrow the Shaw on behalf of England so that BP could continue. Yes.

So, I mean, we installed the shop. Yeah, and so over through most of the, yeah. What, what year was there most of the year? That was 53. Okay. Yeah. All right, so, but how much did most Americans

pay attention to that? But he is a literary fellow, so it could be that he you spent more time reading stuff. You know, William Applelement Williams was writing history not less than, not more than 10 years later. And he was absolutely saying, no, his predatory capitalism using communism as a spokesperson screen. Take a little bit of Iraq, alright. You had an intelligentsia in the country that was capable of digesting that.

Okay. So yeah, it could be. But within the overarching mass consciousness, the understanding of oil as a hydraulic empire, that literally, kind of resource, was not something that was part of like our consciousness as a culture. His experience as a CB, no he said he was a photographer though, although he was a Jason to all the guys who were doing McCann and you know. So it could well be that he understood the importance of well and was like let's pull that out a little more. Yeah, let's extract. Yeah, see this. So yes. Um, and so he started working on Dune in 1959. Okay. Uh, he there was a magazine article that he started doing research for, uh, that was going to be about the Oregon

dunes. Uh, in, in, along inal Oregon, there was a project going on by the USDA because there are these huge sand hills. Okay, I did not know that. In Coastal or I'm trying to remember precisely where. And the thing is, this is this huge amount of loose sand that could potentially present if there's serious wind events or whatever it can turn to, sandstorm be destructive of development and everything, farming and all that stuff. And so the USDA was working on finding a way to stabilize the dunes by introducing poverty grasses. Okay, so kind of a re-tread of what happened in the 1930s to stop all the top

soil from eroding. Yeah, yeah, okay. And so he wound up, this captured his imagination and he wound up gathering way more information than he needed for the article. So the magazine article never got written. I can relate. Because he, yeah, I think. Thank you. But that was the earliest inspiration for Dune. Okay. The portion of that that caught his attention, caught his imagination was the seed, or seedling that turned into,

eventually became Dune. Now, should also be noted somewhere around this time he experimented with Silas Ibn and his psychedelic experiences are another huge theme that we're gonna get to talking about the book. So in analog magazine between November 1963 to February of 1964, Dune World was published as a serial. Then in 1965, the profit of Dune was published between January and May, also in analog science fiction.

The first serial became book one in the eventual novel and the second serial became books two and three. Okay. Okay. The novelized version was finally published by Chilton Books in August 1965 after being rejected by over 20 different science fiction publishers. I love those stories. I was just like it was rejected by all of these and then this one picked it up and then it became this. Yeah. By the way, you know what Shelton is most famous for, right?

Yeah, for like technical manuals, for like the Toyota. Yeah, on-motive manuals. Yeah. Shelton's the Shelton's book for your car. Right. Yeah, anytime I buy a new car, it's the first thing I look up is where do I get the Shelton's manual.

Yeah, yeah, they, you wait. Who? You know, that's one of those details that every time I get reminded of it, I'm like, how did that? Whatever, okay, I move that down. So now to talk about the world in which Herbert wrote the book.

So that's the history of kind of where he came from and how the book came about in his psyche. To talk about what was happening in the world, second deal was in its infancy. And we just talked about him experimenting with Silo Sibon. Leary and Huxley, both encouraged widespread use of LSD as a mind expanding drug. Yes. If I'm remembering the details right, Liri was like, no, everybody needs to do this. Everybody, everybody, expand, have these experiences,

essentially slip the surly bonds of your mental wide way of the perception. Open the doors of perception. Well, that's Huxley, but yeah. Yeah, well yeah. Huxley, I found out in researching this, had a much more elitist view of it. He argued that, no, if you're gonna mess with this stuff,

you need to be probably educated. You need to be, you know, because again, Huxley being an Englishman, Leary being an American, Huxley, there's clearly some class. There's a, well, Huxley, there's clearly some class. There's a, well also Huxley, there is a procedure to staying safe. Learney Haw. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know. This is true. At the point, all right, you know, to be a little more charitable, a Huxley, I suppose. Yeah. And as I mentioned, Herbert himself experimented with Silas Ivan.

I would point out that Jim Morrison of the doors, named as band after the doors of perception, which was a Huxley quote, right? Regularly used imagery having to do with going into a desert. Oh yeah. I do find it interesting that Herbert also going into a desert. Now, never having done LSD and I know I'm going to get all kinds of text messages from all kinds of listeners. You know who you are. But never having done LSD, I do wonder if there's a layer of like the emptiness and vastness of a desert. I think there's a lot of poetic, mystical kind of symbolism that comes from that. So also in isolation, the vastness, the vastness, the isolation of...

Strip down of reality. Yeah, the removal of extraneous, you know, everything. And I think there are multiple kind of angles from which that could be approached. But yeah, so the Cold War at this time, the Eisenhower Doctrine showed up in 1957, which for those unfamiliar with the Eisenhower doctrine because you know I'm kind of talking inside baseball

Octavian as a fellow historian. The Eisenhower doctrine was essentially a corollary to the Monroe doctrine. Monroe doctrine said we're not gonna let you mess around here in in the Americas and the Eisenhower doctrine said but if we have to do something to protect our interests against communist aggression in the Middle East, we're going to intervene in the Middle East if we have to. Right. Essentially. It's funny that it's after the fact. Yeah, I'm simplifying. Yes. You know, but that's basically what it says. And yeah, it's a justification for It's a justification for having installed the Shah.

The Cuban Missile Crisis was in 62. So as we talked about previously, that was this moment where the existence of the entire world was pivoted on a knife edge. Yes. The Gulf of Tonkin incident was in 1964, which is the official air quotes start of the Vietnam War for Americans. Where we actually said, okay, yeah, we are fighting here. We're not just advising.

We're not just advising. No, no, no, we're going to bomb the shit out of you. And then the partial test band treaty, which you remember we mentioned talking about high line, that happened in 63. Okay. Okay. Now, at the same time, that's going on in the Cold War as a corollary to that. Empires are rapidly falling apart.

Yeah, the statistic is always my favorite. Prior to 1945, any colony that stood up to its suzerain, I guess, colonizer lost and after 1945 any that stood up one. Yeah. So, yeah. So the Portuguese colony started to pull away after Goa was annexed by India in 61. This eventually led to a 13-year-long war in Angola, Mozambique, and Guinea-Baso. The French occupation of Algeria ended in 1962. The dirty war.

The dirty war. An abortive coup by a group of French generals who didn't want to see colonial rule end. The French gave up Indochina in the 1950s, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, granting Vietnam. 54. Yes, the NBNFU. NBNFU. Indochina in the 1950s Vietnam Cambodia and Laos granting 54 was DMVN Foo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Foo. The British Commonwealth expanded rapidly in the 1950s and 60s

as essentially the whole empire got cut loose owing to post-war economic realities. Yeah, we just don't have the money to hold on to you anymore. Yeah, there's a. Hi, be free. There is a whole debate in in parliaments where it was beven and then there's a guy named Bevan. British, Irish, StarCross. Yeah, but they were they were they were just a guy with a certain starting with fits and you exactly you know, but he and I forget which one it was, but he

basically said we're not going to because it was America offered a sweet deal, get rid of your empire, and we'll marshal plan the hell out of you. Oh, okay. Okay, yeah. And one of them said, basically I will not let the English empire be sold for the price of a package of cigarettes.

So very English. How very English. So very English. How very upper crust and crust. Yes. that's down Abby level. It really is dialogue right there like do you understand like yeah, yeah, step outside Yeah, of of parliament step outside to building and and look at how your own people are are having to live right now Yeah, yeah, like are you are you related to the Antoinettes?

Like the fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Kenya had the Malmau uprising between 15 to 22 and 56. There was a three-sided civil war in Rhodesia starting in 64 that ran all the way until 1979. Yeah, then.

It lasted long enough that Warren Zeevon wrote a song about it. By the way, it's a good song. Rollin' the Headless Thompson Gunner. Yeah, then it lasted long enough that Warren Zeevon wrote a song about it By the way, it's a good song roll in the headless Thompson Gunner highly recommended. Okay, amazing Okay, it ends with Patty heard heard the burst of Roland Thompson gun and bought it. Okay anyway, so yeah, like yeah Belgium cut the Congo loose without any preparation at all Not only that they unscrewed the light bulbs in all the buildings and took them with them. Yeah, how fucking fancy. It's super petty.

And my favorite part is the speed, like if you ever get a chance, read the speech that Patrice Lemumba delivers when he accepts, you know, because they're like, okay, you need to think, you think King Bedouin and all this kind of stuff. And he's like, the fuck I do.

So, and he just like, just lists all the shit that Congolese have had to deal with. Oh yeah. And he's like, and now it's ours. Yeah. And it's like, not even thank you. Yeah. You're just like, oh man, it's so good.

And the problem was the guy in charge of the UN was from Belgium. So he absolutely let the CIA and everybody do all that they could to fuck Patrice Lamumba over. Yeah. So Lamumba has a special place in my heart. Yeah, no, I can understand. Yeah. Based on just that story. Yeah. You can understand why. But okay, so that's 1960, 61. Yeah. Yeah. Their colony of Rwanda similarly descended into tribal warfare after independence in a cycle that carried on for literally decades. Yes. Now the Middle East is an interesting case here. The Middle East had been cut up into multiple protectorates and mandates

after the First World War. So like they were part of these empires, but on paper They had their own governments Like a territory system for America. Yeah, and by the 50s most of those states were at least nominally independent Mm-hmm, but there had been revolts against colonial powers across the region in the 20s and 30s Which as you pointed out had all lost because pre-World War two, post-World War II. Afghanistan is worth mentioning here because it had been a semi-client kingdom that Britain had never fully conquered, but had gone to war with three times in the 19th century, mostly because the rulers of Afghanistan were consistently a problem for the British Raj in India. Right. And so they kept trying to bring them directly under control and they never

succeeded because fucking Afghanistan. It's Afghanistan. Yeah. Egypt asserted its own power in 56. Yep. By nationalizing the Suez Canal. Which was one of the only times, and if this is what you're about to say, it's one of the only times that the US and the USSR

were on the same side. Yeah. Because they were telling France and Britain, stop it. Not get the fuck off. Yeah. Yeah. And also it's one of those few occasions on which the English and the French,

like willingly, eagerly cooperated on something. Yep, yep. The UK and France backed Israel's invasion of the Sinai as cover to seize the canal and oust the NASA government. The specific event is really important to the book. This is real and you'll see why we're getting into details. We're going to see that in a bit. Across the Middle East, there was this overarching sense of circumstances of Western powers asserting a rulership over populations who largely kind of like restively tolerated them,

but went about their daily business holding them in contempt. Yeah, I mean, this is what happens when you have, well, you have that geography. Yeah. Where it's like, oh, cool, you're the king. I have fun being a king. I'm gonna be over here because I have shit to do.

Yeah, like, you know. I got it, I got it. Oh, no, no, you will buy a to do. Yeah, like, you know, I got it. Oh, no, no, you're gonna be over by a great king. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean straight up, this is where you start to see pan-aribism too. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Now, I'm focusing heavily here, just looking at the cases that I've chosen. I'm focusing heavily here on the ones where violence was involved in the decolonization process. Okay, because there were plenty of places like the British let any number of their colonies leave and join the Commonwealth just like no, no, no. Have your independence partly because we're letting you go because we don't really have a choice. Because of the violence in the other places. Yeah, because they were so busy putting those fires out They're like, you know what? I don't want my nose broken again You know and and I'm busy trying trying to stop the bleeding over here I just don't have the resources right, you know, right. So no, no go go fly be free Join the Commonwealth, you know

Hale the Queen, you know, yeah And and first these violent incidents would have been in the forefront of Herbert's mind because they're the ones, you know, if it leads, it leads is a perennial truth. Sure. And secondly, they tie thematically into the ideas he expresses in the book. Okay. About hydraulic empire, about collapse or maintenance of empires about the nature of power. It's all there. Okay. Now, I want to talk about the state of science fiction in the early 60s.

Okay. But I think, especially owing to the 30 minutes we spent, I'm as guilty, even more guilty in New York. But having done that, I think this is a good pause point. Yeah, I think that's why. And we can pick up from here. Okay. Based on just the bit that I've talked about so far,

or what are your thoughts going into our next? Never having red dune. My thought is I'm going to predict what dune is about. Okay. And again, I saw the movie, like I think the same year I saw Ghostbusters. Okay. So I was like six.

Okay. And it was 1984. Okay, yeah, that makes 1984. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. So I don't remember much of doing except the giant floating vagina. Um, and the guild navigator. Right. Okay. Yeah.

It was like, wait. And, uh, and a few words. I swear I'd remember that. Okay. No way. I do. Yes. Yes. I know what you're talking about.

Uh, but also there's like a needle like someone's. Yeah. By the way, that's a very lynchian adaptation of of Herbert's own stuff. Yeah. And in 1980s. Because lynch, you know, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna blame lynch more than the decade. But yeah. But also there was a needle at Agent Cooper's neck. The gum jibbar. Okay. And I think he had to put his hand in a box, which is really funny, because I grew up,

like I was a little too old to be really laughing at dick in a box, just get it. But it totally, like that goes, yeah, yeah. And I think there was like a little bald girl and then Captain Picard was Paul's Paul sister of St. Alia of the knife sure long story We'll get into that when we talk about my brother bear I remember her saying that yes, yes, and then also Patrick Stewart was in it Which was weird because at that time?

Bernie Haleck I had seen Excalibur. Yeah, I was, oh, he's doing the same thing again. Kind of. Yeah. Similar, very similar. So that's what I remember. I don't really remember much in the way of plot. I know Sting was in it. I know there's a floating fat man. I will kill him.

I will. Oh, my god, you don't remember that is like, peak 80s Sting, that whole moment. I got nothing. Like in interviews about like what was going on in his own head at the time. Okay. Sting has has said get a get a cast in that role in that film. Fucked him up. I bet. I bet because because

That was at this moment where where he had because he was essentially the face of the police right which you know The guy actually formed the police is still bitter about that to this day. Because I can't even remember that guy's name, but I can tell you that Stain was born Gordon Sumner. So, to give you an idea of whose side and that argument I'd take. But, so he was at this point where he was this huge thing

in pop culture. And then, and like he Fell into the secondary Persona okay that was that was no no no no no. No, they're staying and then there's Sting gotcha and and what you see fade Ralph that that's he said that's the second one was going on in my head So anyway, so so needless to say I don't remember much in the way of plot. I'm sure somebody had to go put something somewhere or something. I don't I don't. I don't. I will get into it. So now the

there's the there's the okay here's the bare bones recap of the plot that I'm gonna do and then okay now okay unpack all the other stuff. So having said that here's my guess for what's gonna happen and based on what you told me. Okay. There is going to be an empire that is on its way down. Holding on to power and the people that I'm gonna guess that agent Cooper unites them somehow. Okay.

But this is before Agent Cooper. Oh, I know. I know, but I don't always remember his name, but I remember. I'm a colloquial. Yes. Yes. Agent Cooper without the shellac. I wish that with that total 80s.

Yes. Okay, so columnal glaucom is probably going to unite them somehow. Yeah. And but it's going to be bloody and messy. And if there is a victory, because I remember they talked about wanting to make sequels to this, but if there is a victory, then you're not going to be quite sure that you agreed with all of their tactics. Okay. So that's what I think is going to have. Okay, some more lambiguity.

A little bit, a little bit. Okay. Like, it's clearly bad people that are in charge, but if the people who are coming up are going to be unsettling in some way, people. And given that, he cared a lot about oil, I'm going to say that the spice is going to be a stand-in for the oil. Okay. So, because I remember spice pure unrefined,

which tells me oil. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are lots of parallels in that direction. So, okay. That's what I've got. Okay, so we will revisit this at the beginning next time when we start talking about it. The history of sci-fi.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So, as far asfi. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's actually cool. So, as far as books to read, I've got nothing. Okay. But I will say that I'm working my way through supernatural. Okay. And I just watched the Hotel One where they used every hotel trope. There was like the shining meats, psycho.

Yeah. It was fun. Yeah, no. So that's one of those up to me. That's one of the episodes where the writer's room was clicking on all cylinders. It worked well. All the way.

And even the minutiae really got me. Because like the room that they got was room 237. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that's funny. All right. So that's what I've got. I've got nothing to recommend. What do you got? Okay. I have a history to recommend.

Okay. The greatest night by Thomas Asperg. Okay. It's a biography of William Marshall, who... You'd mentioned him previously. And his rise from a essentially expendable second son of a Norman Warlord during the first English Civil War period between Stephen and Matilda to literally rising as high as somebody could rise in England in the 13th century without actually becoming king. Okay. And it's a fascinating study of his career

and just how he was both very typical of the kind of man he was in that time period and also how he became the archetype for that kind of man in the time in which he lived. He was, he was the cultural touchstone, partly because he lived till long. He was on the battlefield into his 70s, right? Which was, you know, way old for the time period. And just because of that and because of the reputation that he'd garnered over the course

of his career, how he became the archetype that we now, when we in the modern world think of chivalry. Okay. A lot of our ideas are formed by who William Marshall was and what he did. And so it's a very it's a very very easy read without being dumbed down or oversimplified, uh, just very highly recommended, love the book. Okay. Uh, so I recommend that very highly. Cool. Well, where can people find you on social medias? I can be found on the social medias at eHblaloc on Twitter, uh, and on Instagram. I can be found as Mr. Blaloc on the TikTok. Where can they find you? Find me at Do Harmony, two Hs in the middle on Twitter and Instagram. You can find me every Tuesday night on twitch.tv, four slash capital puns. The first Tuesday of every month, we have a pun

tournament. All the rest, we're playing games and having fun and getting things going until we get back to live comedy. I'm the sticky wicket on that one because I have children that I want to make sure safe first. Yeah. And then I also have a show on Fridays on the YouTube. Just type in Marvel Strike Force, excelsior gaming and you'll find 99 problems but a staturent

one. It's a lot of fun. My partner and I, Ian McDonald, also, we play and talk about Marvel Strike Force. It's all its intricacies and things like that. Very cool. So, yeah, that's enough. That's good. Yeah.

So, it is a fair amount. It's a lot. I have other ambitions, but currently this podcast is is really where you should find me Speaking which please you can find the podcast collectively at at Geek history time.com website and at Geek history time On the Twitter on the Twitter. On the Twitter, yeah.

Also, while you're at it, you can find us on, if you just found us back, accident use your Apple podcast finder, you could use Stitcher, you could use Stitcher and Spotify. And then please make sure you subscribe, rate, review, give us the five star that you know we deserve. And yeah, please tell your friends, tell your friends to listen with you and then come up with study questions for them.

Indeed. Yeah, it's really the best thing for a friendship, honestly. It's called having a treatise off. And you need to do that. Yeah, occasionally. Cool. Well, for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock.

And until next time, remember that he who controls a thing can destroy a thing. Wait, no, I got that wrong. He who can destroy a thing controls the thing. We'll get into it. We'll get into it. Oh, just fucking roll. I draw a campfire.

Roll is 20. God damn it. you