A Geek History of Time - Episode 133 - Zombies IX

Episode Date: November 13, 2021

So thank you all for coming to Cocktalk. He has trouble counting change, which is what the hands think. Wait, wait, stop. Yes, but I don't think that Dana Carvey's movie, um, coming out at that same time, was really that big a problem for our country. I still don't know why you're making such a big deal about September 11th, 2001. Fucking hate you. Well, you know, they don need to be anathema, but they are definitely on different aspects.

Oh boy, I have a genetic predisposition against redheads, so. Because? Yeah, because you are one. Right. Yeah, combustion, yeah, we've heard it before. The only time I change a setting is when I take the hair trimmer down to the nether reaches, like that's the only time. Other than that, it's all just a two

I'm joking I use feet after the four gospels. What's the next book of the Bible? Okay, and after that Yeah, okay, and if you look at the 15th chapter of Romans, okay, you will find that it actually mentions the ability to arm yourself That's why it's for the whole thing. This is a geek history of time. Here we come under the greener world. My name is Emma Boyline, I'm a band history and a long history journey. I've been at the middle school level in the African-Calfordia. And I did a chemical lab to report in my personal life other than I think I've found the district and the site I plan to retire from assuming I can get permanent status.

We used to joke with a friend of the show that when she moved from the site she and I met at. She talked about her new site as being Valhalla where everything was shiny and chrome. And I'm going to argue with her, I think I've actually found it. My district administration seems to be taking public health, actually at least somewhat seriously. my co-workers are 90% people that I can, you know, getting into the weeds details about stuff. I'm pretty much sure, like, if I can manage not to fuck this up, I intend to stay there further rest if my career. Fair enough.

Which I know is going to make you sad, and it makes me a little sad because I, but like, you're district is dumpster fire and Like you can't argue with me on that. No, so I just know that we always win still Well, I mean yeah, you're union when you got a time the amount of time and energy you gotta spend fighting shit is also true Yeah kind of exhausted. So anyway, I mean that's that's my I mean, that's that's a very big picture kind of But there you go. Who are you? I'm I'm Damien Harmony. I am a Latin teacher and a drama teacher up here in Northern California And I don't really have anything of note to be perfectly honest. So let me just jump right into what we're talking about last time. All right, that's a change of pace, but here we go. Yeah, I left off last time, I believe, talking

about just getting into the walking dead. So I want to set the scene. It's 2010. And Robert Kirkman had been writing this graphic novel for quite some time. And Robert Kirkman had been writing this graphic novel for quite some time. But yeah, a number of years, yeah. Yes. But AMC, option the rights to do a six episode season, based almost entirely on the original source material at the time. So the first season was six episodes long and it was very, very well received. You follow Rick, who's a sheriff's deputy in Georgia with a troubled marriage and a child who had been shot while on the job and he was in a therapeutic coma.

While in his coma, the world went zombie. He awakens and the hospital has been overrun and abandoned and there's that famous sign on the door. Don't do that open inside. I didn't. Yeah. So. If you're in Millennial,

kind of message there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And do not dead open inside. Nice. Thanks.

Thanks. I sort of was saying it first, but. So he travels through his, sorry. Thanks. So what I was saying at first, but uh, so he travels through his, sorry, the job happens. Uh, he travels through his town and King County to Atlanta, uh, slowly learning with us what happened. So his travel is our travel. He's exploring the world for the first time as a man in a coma. It's very easy. I don't quite want to say a trope, but it is a very easy convention to slip into it. It works really well. Yeah, I think I think I vividly remember watching the first episode. And I was watching it with my best friend, Sean and his wife. And the three of us watching it, he and I are both,

you know, story nerds and genre nerds. And so watching it, we were simultaneous. I mean, we were being entertained just like everybody else watching it, but at the same time, we were looking at it from a very right-earnly kind of point of view. And it was really, really good. Like from a strictly technical, how would you write this kind of, it was amazing. Oh yeah.

It was a great way to take a certain. Yeah, and it managed to, whenever you're doing something that involves a lot of world building, it is really hard to get the ideas of what is the background of the world across without having to do an info dump or having people just like talk shit out. Very true. And the way Kirkman's graphic novel and the way the show did it were just absolutely amazing. And what struck my friend first and then he kind of pointed literally pointed to it.

Like you didn't say anything, but he just pointed. And the fact that at the end of the first episode, Rick shows up in Atlanta wearing a cowboy hat on the back of a horse with a shotgun across his back is so amazingly like you have to, you have to think that the folks in the writers room were like, okay, okay No, look we can actually pull this fucking off Like we can we can totally be that on point and and do it and make it work and And it did and it wasn't like oh of course's shown up on the horse and like the whole cowboy trope, but I'll know they paid for it.

Like they made it work and it was absolutely perfect. Well, and you get that shot. And then shortly thereafter, it's all torn to a sunder. And I mean the horse. So yeah, he's looking for his wife and his son, right? And he finds them with his partner and his best friend. Of course, his partner took care of his wife while he was in the coma.

And so Lori, his wife and Shane, his best friend slash partner, their love of Rick brought them together and they're actually a couple. But as soon as Rick shows up, Lori dumps Shane for her husband and it's all sorts of uncomfortable for her and for Shane and for us. And Rick is blissfully and seemingly unaware. Now the group that they have amassed with them is filled with very dynamic and complex characters right off the bat. There's an abusive husband with his wife and child. There's 13 people at the camp to give her take and among them include people like Glen

Rhee, who's a Korean pizza delivery boy, two semi-estrange sisters Amy, and I forget her name Sharon, I want to say. Rick and his partner, who who as it turns out have very different philosophies as to how things should go T-dog a black man with a strong moral compass Which I feel bad like I can list everyone else in these other ways, but he literally was kind of written that way To just show that you know in a post-eliptic world, your color doesn't matter. Now, later on, they develop more characters. There's a lot more people of color involved in things like that, and they're not just,

oh, this is a black guy with a strong moral compass. Like, they, I mean, right now, there's currently a deaf character. Yeah, you know, and there's all kinds of different things. But, you've got Dale,'s all kinds of different things, but You've got Dale who's the old man who owns the RV. You've got Merle and Darrell who are super racist brothers who are both good at hunting, but really shitty people So that's the group that you start with and if they kill Darrell we riot Yeah, is the is the the one of the monstr modules that's been like for the whole run of the show. Yeah.

I think a character development over the course of the arc of the show is one of the most remarkable bits. Yeah. Because if I'm remembering right, and I've only read the first couple of volumes of the comic Daryl's not in the comic. Yeah, Daryl is an original Creation for the for the TV series. It's interesting that you know So anyway, yeah, sorry. So just, you know, go. Oh, okay, sorry.

So the zombies are a big goddamn deal. They're ubiquitous. They're deadly. The people are still coming to grips with how to survive and they're under constant threat of attack. At one point, there's an argument over whether or not to allow a fire or just embers. The people are are finally forced to clear their camp when it's clear that it's no longer hidden from the undead and Rick takes those who are willing to go back to Atlanta to the CDC. Shane and he disagree over this by the way as Shane has adapted to the new world and thinks that Rick is full hearty for wanting to stay things used to be in fairness Rick just woke up.

When they can't even a poor note like literally got here. Like you've been dealing with this for months and. But I'm going to take leadership. That's the thing they always got me. Now when they get to the CDC they meet a doctor who tells them ultimately that their efforts are fruitless, that there is no cure and there will be no cure. He doesn't actually tell them that when the CDC's backup generator runs out of juice, he doesn't tell them that the whole place is gonna explode until they're sealed in and it's too late. Rick convinces him to let them go actually. is gonna explode until they're sealed in and it's too late. Rick convinces him to let them go actually

before they leave the doctor, Dr. Whisper's to Rick that it's pointless because everyone in the world is actually infected. So when you die, you become a zombie and that's the end of season one. And then it gets picked up. It gets picked up as a show and what seemed to really trip people up and really get them

to like it. Partly is that image of Rick on a horse with a cowboy hat. Because from then on the whole show is a western of just varying different types. The group is itself a group, but it is essentially a stand-in for the lone gunman who comes to town and disrupts that town's oppressive system. They fight against town bullies and deadly shadows at the end of the seasons. Or the group finds a place to hold up and call it the self the homestead, and then they fight off bandits and adjacent bullies of mean people, uh, and bullies who have the means to actually be bullies. Or, the group has to deal with someone within the group, essentially breaking the rules of the group wherever they are.

Do you notice what's largely missing from all of these plots that keep happening over and over again? Um, that would be the zombies. Yeah, they're plot devices, but so rarely is the plot centralized around them. They're vaguely... Well, you know, yeah. No, go ahead. You've finished your thought. They're vaguely dark, poorly dressed, and comparison to the protagonist, background

menaces that can be used by antagonists to deepen the jeopardy to our main characters. Zombies are the Indians of our new westerns. Rick himself is a sheriff's deputy. Has gun will travel? Okay, yeah, that's that's a really wow. Okay. I mean, yeah, I have an an quite taken to heart just just the extent to which that was that was the new paradigm there. I think what's what's interesting to me is what you said early on about the zombies in the first several episodes is they are and they remain a background environmental threat. Yes. But I think it's important to note, I think this is this is different from

Other other films that we've talked about in the genre up to this point In other places where the zombies were a background threat the intensity of their Dangerousness Was less than it is in the walking dead. Yes, I know. Because the walking dead has the advantage of being 10 years old now, 11 years old. So it has changed over time.

And I'm actually going to cover each major plot line as far as that goes. But when you get to the zaniness of a zombie land and when you get to the fact that it's basically once you get past bush, the zombies are no longer the main story of a zombie film. Well, you know, I think what's interesting, and the supplies both for the graphic novel and for, the TV series, the Walking Dead is, to me, less a zombie series than it is a post-apocalypse series where the apocalypse was a zombie apocalypse as opposed to nukes.

You get what I mean? Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's really great. What, what, you know, the author of the Walking Dead is trying to get across to us is, this is what the world's gonna look like after. Mm-hmm. This kind of apocalypse,

this is how we're gonna have to rebuild society. This is how people are gonna respond. Yeah, but I think ultimately by doing that, all that is really happening is essentially that you're saying, okay, right, we found that Westerns were really successful in the 50s and 60s. How do we get back to Westerns?

With all our technology and all of our stuff put together, how do we make it so that there's no social safety net so that technology is no longer valid or helpful other than the very mechanical, easy to repair and easy to maintain, steam-based stuff and animal-based stuff. In other words, Westerns. So zombies will get you there.

All right, I get what you're saying there, but I don't think. Like they literally create stage coaches out of old cars. Oh yeah. Like yeah. It's yeah. I mean, I think, yeah. You know, I think the thing is, that is where it ends up.

That is where it ends up. And I think that's because we're talking about American creators working from a very distinctly American kind of paradigm. Yeah. If that makes sense. No, absolutely. I think and but but if anybody is going to be that aware of it, I think that's the folks who made the TV series. I don't think there was that level of consciousness. I go a better word involves in the at least at the beginning in the

graphic novel. Yeah, and I can't I can't speak to the graphic novel because I'm specifically focused on the the TV and movie media. Yeah, so yeah, moving picture media. Yeah. Yeah. So after season one, like basically this is wagon train plus outlaw comes to town. Right. So after season one, they run into a family farm with qualms about killing the undead. And Rick has to kill his best friend on that family farm. So that's season two is pretty much. Okay. Does he have to kill his best friend on that family farm?

Yeah, actually he ends up having two because it is killer be killed between the two of them. Oh, right. Okay, I'm sorry. You're talking about when his friend is still alive and it turns into a killer be killed. Yes. Yes. No, it's fine. But basically, I mean, we're talking about Little House on the Prairie meets the zombies.

That's a fucked up image. I'm kind of here for it. Yeah. Then there's a season where they're in a prison, which is also paired up with the governor's town. And so it's essentially they come to town as loan gunmen. They set up shop outside of town and they disrupt this corrupt town's way of doing things. When that storyline ends, you get terminus where they literally follow the railroad tracks.

Then they eventually get to Alexandria where Ricks people become the protectors. In other words, we need a new sheriff and a new marshal. The wolves attack Alexandria, wolves, animals, humans acting as... But here's the thing, the wolves are actually humans. They're not zombies, so people gone, but they're people gone native on some level. Oh, well, that's fucked up. Yep. And then you get to hilltop, you get, you get introduced to the kingdom, you get introduced

to Negan's survivors. So again, you've got a very corrupt leader of people, and I mean, you've essentially got the cowboys, right? These are three towns, but then eventually there's a big war and Negan gets not killed. And then there's huge tension over Negan not being killed. And notice again, everything that's missing from this is the zombies. They are a background menace, they are manipulated by those in power to attack those who are trying to remove those in power. They wind up becoming a tool. Yeah. The zombies are like the main threat

as far as a background threat until Rick seems to die. And then they fast forward by six years. And now you see the three towns that are mostly thriving. So there was a peaceful town called Rock Ridge. And then you have, then you have Alphas Horde, which is the most recent stuff, and it's this woman who leads a bunch of other humans who dress in walker skins and act like walkers and walk among the walkers as though they are walkers. So totally turn native and they're leading the walkers to destroy the towns. So again, you know, the real problem is, you know, when people manipulate these groups, there's a lot of brutality, there's heads on pikes, her alpha's daughter goes to live with the town. She slaughters a lot of people during a town fair which again, you know, everybody turn out for the big, you know, big town fair in the middle of the town square. Season 10, there's an uneasy piece with Alpha and her hoard. You can watch this on

Netflix. Season 10, I love season 10's beginning because it literally starts with the town of Oceanside fighting off regular walkers as a matter of as a way to show how normal things are at that point Like they have a drill where they're teaching people how to kill the walkers and they're letting them out in parsed out numbers and they're taking you through these battle tactics and everybody's like, yep, this is totally normal and idyllic, this is the good times. And then shit gets weird. And then the Alpha Story line ends and that brings us to kind of the final season, which

is going to be 24 episodes stretched over the next two years. But what I think is, yeah, it's, you know, Game of Thrones got nothing on them. What I think is interesting to note is that every new season or storyline starts with the towns being peaceful, fighting a clutch of zombies that they have very little trouble against, and that's what counts as peaceful for home status.

Yeah, the natives are a problem, but not that often. So it's a modern western. Now if you don't like the modern western analysis, we could also look at the not so subtle undercurrent of the expendability for the zombies. In general, and they could also represent the homeless. Wow, I don't know which one of those is more problematic. Well, let's dig into the homeless, shall we? Because I've been spending time on the tropiness of the natives being the problem. And we talked about that with our GuyGak episode and there have been a few other times. But let's talk about the homeless for a second because the Indian comparison, the natives comparison

is really, really obvious. And with everything else. But I think there's some meat on this bone as well. So owing to the economic disaster brought about by tax cuts during an endless war, as well as the deregulation of runaway capitalism, and the loss of social services due to compassionate conservative policies as well as the necessary governmental belt tightening when the decision was made to bail out same banks. There were pushing people out of their homes. Homelessness in 29 to 2010 was on the rise. In 2009, there was an estimated 630,277 homeless in America in 2010.

Say that, say that number again. 630,277. Okay. Obviously an estimate. uh... in two thousand ten say that said that number again six hundred thirty thousand two hundred and seventy seven okay obviously an estimate yeah well yeah clearly uh... i i want to i want to quibble a little bit here okay your your focusing on two thousand nine two thousand ten when this show started yeah yeah and i understand why why you're doing that in context of this, but I also want to take

the discussion of this back a little bit further. Because 2019, 2010 is the not cusp, what's the word I'm looking for? It's an inflection point, I don't know. is an inflection point. I don't know. But the beginning of all of this has to be traced back to the policies of the Reagan administration. More than 20 years before, that the Reagan administration cuts funding for all kinds of social services, most notably including mental health services, in a, well, you know, we need to defund, you know, asylum's kind of kind of thinking without Redirecting those funds into other ways to help people who were mentally ill and so I'd up seeing things like you know The movie Prince of Darkness where the zombies are so obviously a

Stand-in for Zitgeist fear of the homeless. Right. So literally all homeless people. Like, I don't disagree with you here, but I do think that there was enough of a social safety net still there that many people were able to,

because remember, welfare reform doesn't come around until Clinton. Granted, you know, and there's a lot of ways that people are still able to get certain services. But by 2009, we're talking more than half a million. Yeah. And, and a direct result of, of what we just saw. Now in 2010, it jumps up to 637,777. And while the number began to dwindle when Obama was an office,

it never dropped below 549,000. In fact, after eight years of decline in 2016, it ticked back up. Now it's still holding below 600,000 as of this recording. Now the thing is the homeless tend not to have access to as many opportunities to wash their clothing and their bodies or dentistry or hair care or health care or exercise or nutrition. There's a lot going on there andies kind of embody a lot of that. And in 2010, the killing of the homeless was at its peak.

Homeless people were doused with gasoline, set on fire, attacked with bottles, metal pipes, baseball bats, sprayed with pepper spray, often for the sport of it. And I'm not saying that the walking dead caused or even led to this, but I am saying that these things were co-derminating at the same time.

Well, you know, and it's worth noting that in any kind of large scale, largely urbanized There has historically been a deep-seated fear of the homeless. The example that's immediately coming to my mind is in Han China. I'm trying to remember which dynasty it is I'm talking about, but in Mongol rule chitose. So we're talking about the, I want to say the Qing dynasty. There was a very pronounced fear of, of beggars and of the homeless within that society, because society because if you don't have a home, if you don't have a family that you were living with that puts you in this position from the view of somebody outside of your circumstances, from the view of somebody with a home with things to lose, when you don't have those connections, there is nothing to limit your behavior. There is nothing to stop you from any number of of actions or things you might do. There was a massive panic in, I want to say the Ming dynasty, there was a huge panic

over soul-stealers. And it was essentially a Chinese witch hunt that was directed at the homeless out of beggars within their society because they were the ones who had nothing to lose. And I mean, I could get all kinds of, nerdy about this because it was a fascinating point of study in my bachelor's degree. But, you know, the underlying idea I'm trying to emphasize is for those of us who are not homeless, people who are homeless reflect number one, one of our greatest fears, which is, you know, losing one's home, which is very primal. But at the same time, there is a subconscious, I don't know if existentialist, the right word, but a very deep threat involved in encountering someone who does not have anything to lose.

I'm going to take that one step further. I'm going to say that there is a almost a pathological hatred of them. And by 2010, that is really being exercised and exercised as well. I mean, bump fights had been all but shut down Officially by 2008, but it still was something in the collective consciousness at the time. Yeah, so having a show that popularizes casual violence against poorly dressed poorly kept dirty visual violence against poorly dressed, poorly kept dirty, formally civilized beings, they're not even human beings, it kind of continues the through line of acceptable violence against a certain group that really got going in Zambieland. And it's okay, in Zambieland there was kind of an on-wee toward them.

They're easy to kill for sport. There's no real hatred of them. But in the walking dead, there's a lot of exploration of the hatred of them because they once were your family members. And so there's not just the fear. There is a pathology against it. Well, there's, there's a remarkable moment in one of, one of the episodes in the first season. I don't remember which episode, but Rick encounters a father and son. And the wife and mother has been zombified.

Yes. And they're all holed up in a house. Yes. And the father is in the second, there's this, this, he's got a sniper rifle and he's looking through the open, he sees her. Yeah.

Yeah, and it's gut wrenching. Mm-hmm. It's absolutely gut wrenching because he's shooting zombies all around her, but he can't bring himself to shoot her. Right. And one could make the argument that that is also

a stand-in for drug addiction. Like, there are a lot of things that we fear. That's potent. That we treat with hatred. Now, that ties back to your talk about Reagan and shutting down the social safety nets because all the treatment centers and stuff, right? Yeah.

Now, I'm not going to go too much more into this particular show other than to point out that it gives us a Western, it gives us a fear of the homeless and even potentially drug users. Attics. Okay. Now, yes, I'm going to jump on this before we move on anything else. Just say this is a huge, just became overnight a huge part of the Zitgeist. Yeah. And it was up there with Game of Thrones as a massive, you know, media hit that became a part of the mass consciousness. Well, and really I think in so doing,

it sucked the oxygen out of the biome of zombie movies ultimately. It became the codifier and the standard setter in a lot of ways and a lot of made for TV zombie films and a lot of zoom coms and a lot of genre bending into zombies came after it, but not much else. There wasn't that much left to do. So it becomes a little bit more just fun consumerism. This show takes the seriousness of zombies

almost entirely away from everything else. In 2012, there began a series of zombie 5K runs. That was the first time I could find evidence of zombie 5K runs. And finally, there was another long awaited resident evil movie, of course, since 2010, called Retribution. Now, that by this point, it's almost entirely about Alice. And I mean, there are zombies in it, but Alice fights her way to the Oval Office, fights the Red Queen, and the military

defends both the Umbrella Corporation and the US government. And yes, the movie was panned, and yes, it made its money back four times over. And there were plenty of zombie films. Because of course it did. Yeah, come on. I mean, like by this time we know what's going to happen. Right. But so there were plenty of zombie films to go around,

but there were none worthy of note until 2013. And that's when World War Z came out. Now, World War Z, a lot of people will have a problem with because the book was so much better, and I would say that these are two things with the same title that are violently different from each other. World War Z was a book that Max Brooks, the son of

Mel Brooks, wrote in 2006. It was a really good book, but it's well beyond our scope here. However, in 2013, the movie came out with Brad Pitt, and it totally wasn't the book because how could it be the book? The book is just really, really cool little vignettes. is just really, really cool little vignettes. This movie grossed over $540 million, making it the single highest grossing zombie movie of all time. Okay, wait, I'm sorry, I'm gonna need you to back up and give me a number again.

It grossed how much? 540 plus. $540 million plus, yeah. Yep. Half a billion dollars. Yep. So that it grossed. Yes. So is that worldwide?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Okay. I don't remember it even actually being reviewed as being that great of film. Have you noticed that the most successful movies keep getting panned? Well, yes, but there's a part of me that rebels against that.

Wow. I don't know what to tell you there. I, well, no. You're the Catholic. But, but, Jen, this, okay, granted. But, holy shit. Half a I did not realize it had made that much money. And it was huge.

It was Brad Pitt in his zombie movie. So yeah, okay. And a big budget behind it, but it grossed over 540 million. Now the zombies hit our protagonist out of the blue in Philadelphia, just out of the blue. Brad Pitt is playing a former UN guy of some sort, who's trying to get his family to safety, and then he's pulled in to trying to figure out and solve this outbreak, so which is a very important shift. There needs to be a stopgap now, not a reversal, but a vaccine.

And he's a UN guy, so it's not a localized story, it's not a national story, it's a worldwide story, it's not just an American problem, but I do like that it starts in Philadelphia. And it's interesting because at the time this movie came out, and we could not have known this, but right wing, leftwing and religious terror was at a combined nadir in 2013. 2006 saw a similar nadir, which was when the book came out, so both times at World War Z came out, there was a nadir in right-wing left-wing and religious terror. And the year after both, it rose dramatically from the right, but not with left or religious groups. Okay, see in my head, I'm trying to, you know, do the analysis there based on my own recollection. Okay, so I'll give you the numbers. Okay.

In 2013, let's see, right wing violence, religious violence and left wing violence, we're all at about five attacks each that year. In 2014, it rose to over 25 in right wing. Religious groups it rose to about 21. In left wing it rose to six. You go to 2015 and 2016 and then it spikes in 2017 at over 50 right wing attacks. Meanwhile, religious is on the decline at that point. It had dropped down to 12 and left wing was back down to four. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Which, you know, excuse me, between you and me, I thought of that as especially surprising, but no, but it is a fun and interesting correlation, though, both times for the book and for the movie, it rose dramatically

afterward. But we weren't seeing that trend until after it happened. Now, interestingly, violent crime also was falling in 2013. Also, the GDP had fallen off a little bit, and by and large, much of what had fallen off the cliff in 2009 had still come back, though. Now, by all measures, 2013 was kind of a chill year in all the ways, which might explain why there was a movie dealing with a problem that sprung up on us think housing collapse and then everyone in the film had to work together listen to an expert work our way through it because that's basically the plot of the movie. It's so somewhat of a race against time but really it's more of a solve the mystery problem for Brad Pitt and a few of his friends around the world. It's more of a solve the mystery problem for Brad Pitt and a few of his friends around the world.

All right. So in 13, we're past the midterm elections. Yes. We're not, no, we're not past the midterm elections. We're past the presidential election. Oh, we're past the presidential election. Okay, so this is the second Obama term. Yes.

I'm trying it. Okay, so 13 is the nadir. Yep. And then we see the spike the following year. We see a giant we see a giant climb. We don't see the spike a spike would be that's the top of it, right? We see a vast climb in right wings specifically. Terrible. Yeah. So I find it interesting that there is this lag time, that Barack Obama won his second election in 2012. Yep.

2013 is a quiet year. 2014 we see the climb and then we see the pinnacle. Yep. In 17, which is after the ascendancy as it were of the right wing demagogue who followed Obama. Yes. The cartoonishly evil worst possible example of what a white person could be. Absolutely. Take that. Shit staying of a human being. Yes. Yeah. And then I'm wondering, I mean, what this brings up for me is, is where is, what is the explanation for the lag time there? Because you would think the people that were being, well, I don't think, okay, so I think you're, you're being a bit presentist. This time around when an election was lost, they immediately stormed and went ape shit.

In 2013, Twitter was not nearly as big. You didn't have the groundwork of right wing hate groups growing and growing and growing and growing and growing and being emboldened and told they're both very fine people and that they should stand back and stand by. You had heavy FBI pressure on crushing those groups. And so I think all those things combined, it takes about a year for them to crawl out from under the roots.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. And yeah, yeah, okay. So, presentism. Yep. Yeah, all the rest. Yeah. Yeah. Now, even elaborate. I get it. Yeah, yeah, all the rest. Yeah. Didn't even elaborate.

I get it. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. In what we'll feel a little too on the nose, the plague in this movie, Causing Zombies, turns out to be a vaccine that turns people, ape shit, cannibalistic, and senseless. Moreover, others begin reacting to this hardship in very selfish ways. So Brad Pitt goes from South Korea to Jerusalem, which is doing some cool shit like we saw in the book. But in the movie, Prayer Songs, which are meant to embolden morale among the living, serve to draw the zombies to destroy the safe zone by way of crowding and climbing.

At this point, Brad Pitt notices that a young boy who has clearly got some sort of a dread disease and an old man who likely does too are completely avoided by the zombies. They part around them. He gets the idea that illnesses are the weakening us that are weakening us may well save us and then he goes off to Cardiff because there's a WHO pathogen storage facility there. It's overrun by zombies of course but Brad Pitt is hella Brad Pitt so he goes off to Cardiff because there's a WHO pathogen storage facility there. It's overrun by zombies of course but Brad Pitt is hella Brad Pitt so he goes and gets them. Also he has a Pepsi. Since the terminally ill aren't a good care here for the virus, the zombies

leave them alone. He brings this knowledge which he had to gamble on Cardiff when he is faced with a bunch of zombies. He brings it to Nova Scotia, and now we can all fight our way back to normal with a Vax and Nation. I'm sure there were some people on the boats who'd rather their immune system fought the zombies or who thought the Vax Nation would roll out too fast, but most folks were pretty happy at this news, and Brad Pitt is back with his family at the end. I swear to God, this is the only happy ending to a zombie film that I can recall in a long time. And it's also a mostly forgettable film. Which is remarkable because it paid so much money.

So did Avatar. Yeah, but Avatar was like so psychedelic that people bitched about reality not being intense enough afterward. And while true, five years later, nobody gave a shit about Avatar. It's become a trope that we just kind of point at. All right. Yeah. But yeah, but you get what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, like, there's there's there's a difference in it. It's amazing that it made so much when when it meant so little. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, that's that's kind of your point. But the point I'm trying to make is like, Avatar, at least has the explanation of being like, holy shit, for the two and a half hours I was there. It was this incredibly

intense experience. Yes. And I don't know if we're of course, the like, matches up with that. of course, the like, matches up with that. I think the the happy ending to a zombie movie bit is worth noting. Yes. Since since we're not talking about the literary aspect of anything and we're not talking about the book world wars. Correct. I think as a film, the idea that there could be a happy ending to a zombie movie. I think this is the bell weather of the end of the genre. Like, walking dead has sucked all the air out of all the things, so this is kind of the swan song as far as zombie movies go. Cause we don't see any that go from there. We and don't get me wrong, I'm about to cover the rest that come come about. Yeah, I was just to say it's not like the genre has died out. No, but it's also

not like it's gone anywhere significant. Okay. And after this, like I said, the zombie movie market seems to have died down more to and again This is the high water mark. I think this is the swan song. I think we high water mark probably was zombie land Yes, this one made more money, but from a Pushing the genre forward kind of thing. I mean aside from zombie strippers. I think it really is zombie land I mean, aside from zombie strippers, I think it really is a zombie hunt. Actually, I take it back. The high water mark is coming and you will know it when I point it out.

Okay. All right. I'm waiting on tender hooks. Okay. Now, I think a lot of why the genre dides down is because the walking dead has sucked all the air out of the room and made it so that you had to basically have two kinds of zombie content. Either super ultra mega gritty as hell or direct to DVD cable channel campiness. You could argue that there's a third category which is comedy but I think that falls more into camp. Now in 2014 we see a bunch more

zombie films like I said but I'm just going to we see a bunch more zombie films, like I said, but I'm just going to focus on a few. First, we have Dead Snow 2, Red vs. Dead. This time, there's zombies for the Nazis and also zombies for the Russian army. Their Norwegians have such a distinctive sense of humor and it really comes through in this movie. And the only person who survived the first movie is back in the second one. And I'm just going to tell you the plot of it because it's so fun. This movie takes place literally right after the first one ends. So he smashed the window. Our main protagonist whose name is thoroughly

forgettable, but actually it's Martin, forgot to return one coin of Nazi gold. And so the commanding Nazi zombie comes after him. And that zombie's hand comes off in the ensuing car chase. So then Martin gets to a car accident, which severed his arm. And then he awakens to find out that the doctors don't believe this Nazi zombie story that doesn't make any sense, which is fair. But then he's also told that they sowed his hand back on. Oh shit. But it's not his hand. It's the zombie Nazi's hand. Oh man. And the hand is murderous and Martin is now on the run because he killed a nurse and an American group of zombie enthusiasts of course come to help him and it turns out that the hand gives him the ability to resurrect fallen zombies and other powers. And the result is that the Nazi zombies come down to town to carry out Nazi

nastiness and Martin has to resurrect the Red Army of the dead to fight them off. Martin ends up winning and the police realize he's not a murderer and then he goes to the graveyard with girlfriend is buried. He digs her up and he resurrects her one last time for one final sex session with her in his car while listening to totally clips of the heart. In other words, this is a perfect masterpiece of cinema. Okay, wait. Okay, we're still not at the the high watermark though. Yeah, I it's about to crest. We're about to hit it. So say what you want. I get that but here it comes Okay, I don't even know where to begin here. So okay I keep using the word okay. Yeah, so and none of this is okay

So the zombie zombie hand has been sewed onto his arm. Yeah, like you do. Like you do. Because the medical staff don't know what this is. Yeah. So spot the newly severed limb of a living individual from the snow-movified hand. But newly severed.

As well, it was newly severed. Yeah, newly severed, but it's been buried under the snow attached to a that just means it's preserved. Yeah. For 40 plus fucking years. Uh-huh. Okay. Anyway, so, so, so, so number one, like I have a problem with that. Number one, but moving on. After everything else involved, he resurrects his girlfriend. Who has been buried in the time from the first, so the first movie. I mean, he's been on the run for a few days. He's been on the run for a few days. He has been on the run for a few days and, and yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there's been time to have that funeral. Yeah, but barely. Yeah. Well, that's why she's still, fuckable. All right. Anyway, moving on. Okay. So, so tell me about that. I want to, because like I don't even want to. Well, this one was a...

I don't know why I started commenting because I knew I was going to come into a place where I just didn't even want to think about it. So anyway, moving on. Oh, and there's a Titanic scene, like, you know, where like the hand goes against the window and it's all steamy, except this time it's total eclipse of the heart. Like it's so good. So good. You and I have very different ideas.

What is good. Well, then you might disagree with me on this next movie then. That's not a party. Okay. Well, so here comes the high water mark of zombie movies. It went straight to DVD and I don't know why. But it came out in 2014 and it's called pro wrestlers versus zombies. Of course, this is the high water park. Now sadly, it was straight to DVD, but thanks be to Kickstarter for making sure that it was in

fact funded. And because we got to see Roddy Piper, Matt Hardy and his girlfriend, who's an excellent wrestler on her own, on her own named Rebi Skye, Kurt Angle and Shane Douglas in a movie with zombies. So here's what happens. Shane Douglas, the franchise, kills a wrestler in the ring with a pile driver. Who was pile driving his wife backstage before the show? Um, that wrestler's brother swears a curse and summons a demon who gives him the power over a horde of zombies as long as the demon gets to eat a woman's heart. Shane, being the

indie wrestler that he is, takes another booking while the brother of the man that he killed has lured other wrestlers to the same venue, which is a prison, and he zombifies them. Various wrestlers, including Kurt Angle, or Zombies, who keep their wrestling abilities. However, Shane, Matt, Jim Duggan, a couple others, and Rebi Skye are still human, which means they become fodder for the Zombies. Shane betrays Jim Duggan after Matt Hardy and Rebiysky meet a grizzly demise, saving himself. He even says, Jabber's die main eventers live. I mean, how classic a heel turn for Shane Douglas is that? Wow. Now Shane does run into... And the show is so genre it hurts. Oh yeah. He does admit to his ex-wife that he meant to kill the wrestler after all, and that he

is fine with everything that's going badly because it was her adultery that caused it all. The wrestler's brother summons Shane's family. Wow, that's a dick. Yeah, well, he's a heal. The wrestler's brother summons Shane's family, whom he turned zombie, and Shane has to kill his family to spare them from this fate. Eventually, Shane is overpowered by more zombies and dies. Roddy Piper realizes that they need to stay in fight and he and a woman named Sarah fight to the

last. She lives, Piper yet again doesn't job and he he survives killing the brother of the wrestler who died in the rank. By the way, this was a trauma production because of course. Now, finally, I just wanted to note that there is a movie called Zombievers that came out in 2014. And that's all that really needs to be said. I know. I'm afraid to ask. Zombievers. Are they actually damn building? Yeah. That's you. Okay. Yeah. All right. Like I said, damn. Okay. Now real quick, I was worried. I would be remiss. I would be remiss if I didn't mention the amount of zombie comic books and books that came out about zombies in the last 20 years.

Star Wars comics had a zombie outbreak that was a bio weapon used by the separatist. And it was unleashed in the colony moon of Ome Dune. Ome Dunn. Oh, Ma Dunn. On some gungans in the comic series in 2003. In 2008, there was another incident in the comics that was in Star Wars called Vector. It was across three different timelines,

very much tied to the old idea of zombies with a soul being trapped inside of a jewel which controlled and created those zombies. Her name was Celeste Morn, and she was the Jedi who kept this evil soul at bay, and she ran into Vader, Luke and Cade Skywalker because those were the main characters and the three main titles at the time. Also in Star Wars there have been Death Troopers, Rip Tide and Red Harvest, all novels from

2009 to 2011. Talk about a short slice, right? Marvel had a zombie miniseries that came out in 0506 as well well as ongoing zombie comic that started in O5 as well? They've even had a recent what if episode that was all zombies. Yeah, well, which was a callback to the series from O5 and O6 and speaking from personal experience the the part of the Marvel zombies series that was the most the part of the Marvel Zombies series that was the most affecting to me was Peter Parker's story. Ah, yeah. In it.

Because all the rest of it was just like, you know, the individuals who became zombified became, you know, a sister, a pathic. Right. But Peter Parker, spoiler alert, as I recall, killed an eight, his, his Aunt May, and his, at this point, was she still his wife? Oh, Mary Jane? Yeah, Mary Jane. I'm trying to remember whether, whether one more day had happened or not. Anyway. I think it had happened by that point. Okay.

But anyway, he winds up killing and eating on May and MJ. Yeah. If I remember right. And he's like tormented about it. Uh-huh. Whereas everybody else that was affected by the zombie plague was basically, you know, just a monster. Right. And that's an interesting commentary on the way the writers view Peter Parker as opposed to everybody else in the MCU. Absolutely. But

opposed to everybody else in the MCU. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. But even with that being the case, I felt like in the comics, it was a little bit, the trope was a little bit tired by that time. Well, did you read it right when it came out? Or did you read it later? Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

Because I didn't read it till later. So now beyond could be that I did read it later. I'm trying to remember. Because I didn't read it till later. So now, beyond. Could be that I did read it until later, and I felt the trope was overdone by that time. That could be presentism on my part. So beyond that trio of zombie movies that I mentioned ending with Zombiverse, zombie movies have been on the way in since 2013.

And I think there's a couple reasons for this. First, the oversaturation of the market. Second, the walking dead dead did it so well that there's really no point in coming up with anything else right now. I mean, think about how many high-end fantasy movies came out after Lord of the Rings, or how many high-end gangster movies came out after Godfather Part II. Not many. And third, by and large, zombie movies ceased to be entertaining because of what was happening

in America as white supremacy continues to convulse against having a black man as president at the time. For instance, in 2013, there were 939 hate groups in America. And then it dropped off a really big amount largely due to the efforts of the FBI, but then it started to rise after 2014 too. So in 2013, there were 939, dropped down to 784 in 2014, went back up to 892 in 2015, 917 in 2016, 954 in 2017, 1,020 in 2018, 940 in 2019, and back down to 838 in 2020. I don't think zombies are exxiting as a subject of 2013

because it's too goddamn real. And I think that this might be the best place to discuss the different theories about zombie movies that people have pushed in prior years, okay? So Vox had a wonderful article in 2016 that scratches at the broader brush reasons place to discuss the different theories about zombie movies that people have pushed in prior years. So, Vox had a wonderful article in 2016 that scratches at the broader brush reasons as to why zombie movies were so popular. In the 1930s, it was fear of a primitive culture and the chaos that it brings.

In the late 40s and 50s, up through Romero, it was Cold War Fear. We've talked about that. It was the fear of annihilation, the fear of absorption into another way of life, the fear of scientists with nefarious motivations, which seemed to be totally independent of Anton Def of the United States' importation of former Nazi scientists, Werner von Braun. Now, yeah. I think the take there was the communist the take there was the the communist government of the Soviet Union was going to be one that was going to take away your agency. Right. You know, I mean, I remember growing up being told that, well, you know, if you if you had grown up in the USSR, you would be told what your job would be. Right. As an adult. As opposed to an America where you get told what your job can't be.

Now Romero Zombies had a lot to do with apocalyptic fears, but now it was what if we did survive? The fear of survival weighed heavily on people, so it wasn't the removal of agency. It was the burden of living past it. And perhaps more... What are we gonna do in the world that follows this one? Yes. And perhaps more damagingly than did the fear of obliteration. And though that's tough to measure, and we didn't execute anyone for espionage

during the Ramero zombie time, it was also not just reflection and release of our fears. It was now a commentary on those fears, because the struggle for civil rights in the US definitely played into it. If you remember the young man, Tom, in Night of the Living Dead, he said, we'd all be better off working together, and then he got ignored, like the youth movement as regarded Vietnam and civil rights. And also remember that the Vietnam War was in full swing in 1968 with the TeteFence of being broadcast into American kitchens in stark clarity. And then in the 80s that fear shifted again.

AIDS was capturing the imagination of Americans no matter how badly the president wanted to ignore it. Ebola was the popular imagination since the 1970s and if we extend that fear into the 90s and 2000s there was the avian flu, SARS, swine flu, all the way from the 90s through the 2000s. The real fear was contagion at this point. And then the most recent years in the mid 2010s or the 2010s, I guess we would call them, survivalists have started really looking to zombie films and games. They see it as a guide to the point where the CDC had a zombie survival guide on its website at one point. In 2013, at the same time as the survivalism craze sweeps through the nation,

a group pops up in Kansas. It's called the Kansas anti-Zombie militia. Now you combine that with the fear of new drugs like bath salts, and really the fear of antifa and BLM protesters, Marxists, cultural Bolsheviks, at all, and the fear of zombies is really just an effort to dehumanize each other and express our fear of the other. Now that's one set of analyses. Okay, here's another. If you look at a chart of zombie movies, you find that in the 30s there were a

total of three of them. In the 40s there were eight of them. In the 50s there were nine of them. In the 60s there were 17 of them. In the 70s there were 28 of them. In the 80s there were 69 of them. Nice. Nice. Nice. In the 90s there were 46 of them. And then in the 2000s there were 172 and in the 2010s, there was projected to be about 176 of them. Just giant leaps. Yeah. So here's the theory, I call it the cracked theory, because that's where I first found it. Zombies stopped representing our fears

and started representing our hatred. We hate them because they are us. They're just us without the things that make us human. Their meatbags, sands, empathy, inspiration, love, and emotion. They're just hunger and unrelenting movement. Which means that the zombies are just avatars for our hunger and our lust. And who we hate becomes that. So whoever we hate becomes that. In the 50s, we hated communists. In the 60s, we hated racism and discord. In the 70s, it was consumerism.

Now it's the other. Because as they said on the episode of After Hours by Cracked, they said, we start with fear, which makes us feel weak, which makes us angry, which turns to hate. Zombies reproduce how we process fear into hate with a low stakes murder at the end. Cracked further analyzes it all as the way that liberals see conservatives, the monolithic mob of consumers who endlessly devour all in their path, brainlessly at that.

And I think that this has merit in the post 9-11 zombies, but their analysis of prior movies is frankly lacking. It's like they haven't written 20,000 words on this topic. So... Going after Cracked area. I'm just kind of highlighting myself there. The post 9-11 zombies are aggressive and brainless, and it's absolutely how Liberals saw Bush's followers as he ignored intelligence briefings.

He blundered into Iraq and he had no exit strategy for Afghanistan or Iraq. He cowboyed his way through to a second election. And I think Cracked has a good point there. But I also think that the drop in popularity of zombie films can be placed pretty well and well on some levels with the second Obama administration, with the rise of survivalists and those separatists and survivalists constant focus on the other during Trump. Their guy had won and yet they still clung to this fear of the archetypical other. Despite, as cracked writers had put it, the nagging doubt that we and they are one and the

same. Because they had a president who validated that in Obama. He dared to be black after all. But their reaction was menacing. It was angry. It was irrational and ultimately it was angry, it was irrational, and ultimately it was cannibalistic. And with Trump, that fear and aggression was given license.

One only has to look at how the insurrection on January 6 happened to see that. The hordes stormed the Capitol building. The Capitol building where they held the majority. You saw how they were dressed and how unrelenting and unwilling to listen they were. You saw how they were willing to damage everything that they saw and everything that they were and how they banged against the windows until those windows gave way and how they just kept pushing and pushing and you heard them screaming hang Mike Pence. So you've got the cannibalism but you've also got the day of the dead,

where they're just banging on the windows to try to get it. Zombie movies aren't necessarily anymore for us to touch that scary part of ourselves. We have the news. We don't need them anymore. And now there is a unifying field theory approach that I want to try to try

out here as well. It's kind of as an overview. Okay. So I'm taking the crack, I'm taking the Weston, I'm taking all these things and trying to come up with the unified theory. Because I think all of them are lacking. Unified theory of zombies. Yes. Here we go. Zombie movies prior to 1968 were about a malevolent intelligence removing someone's agency and making them do their bidding. From the beginning, one could see the impact of fear of revolution, fear of growing fascism, and fear of the other ideology. Okay. By 1968, zombies weren't that anymore. They were now hordes that could not be controlled. Look at the unrest in 68, the fact that our government couldn't be reasoned with, and its singular devotion to defeating

communism, becoming the other to fight the other. By this point, it was a force of nature, and I think that lines up a lot with Romero was showing us about others, and the lines up a lot with the cracked theory. And then with the walking dead, there was a new evolution, however nuanced it may be. The zombies were still an uncontrollable and dangerous horde of others, but as Rick told, was told at the very end of the first season, all of us are infected. When we die, we become a menace. In other words, in 2009, after the banks had collapsed and after the Occupy

Wall Street movement, complete with the homeless costuming, was supplanted by the Tea Party Astroturf movement, which the Koch brothers quickly lost control of. Everyone was capable of becoming a horde. We were no longer agents of change, but agents of chaos, and we were all the other trying desperately only to survive. And it's inevitable, as this system has failed us, we all can lose our agency and become the other. Zombie movies aren't popular because it's no longer fiction. We've seen our loved ones get bitten and rage and consume all in their path to our detriment. And now we live with that as a background menace,

knowing that we're all capable of being the same. Zombies are way more of a mirror than ever before, and while there's still stand-ins for Indians in a western or the homeless or addicts or people of color for many, ultimately it is still a mirror, and one that is not fun. It's depressing to look at what we used to see as each other and see that there isn't really an other anymore. The most compelling argument I think there is for what zombies represent is definitely the one that brings the least comfort. We're done. Wow. So that's my unified zombie theory. Okay.

So building from that that. Yeah. With the last year and a half, two years, under our belt, the end of the Trump administration beginning of the post Trump world, and the actual no shit pandemic that we've been living through. What do you think is the next direction for the genre to evolve in. I think it's gonna collapse. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's gonna collapse in on itself for quite some time.

I think that we'll still see people tapping in. I'm sure Resident Evil will have like five more movies. Well, yeah, yeah, because like you said, it's an ATM. Yeah, exactly. And I do think that people will still try to make these films, but I don't think any will be culturally significant. Okay, yeah, and I don't say yeah, I think it'll collapse in the same way that man in the high castle kind of lost steam. The what if the Nazis won is not compelling when the Nazis are in Charlottesville Let's see actually yeah kind of yeah still here. So it took all the steam out of that that show yeah, and people lost a lot of interest

Yeah, so So then I'm going to rather than asking you well, okay asking you, well, okay, normally doing that I'll do my mutation on it when it gets to me in my turn. But this is the point where we normally say, what is your takeaway? And so my takeaway here is, like I mean, I went into this whole exercise knowing that the cracked argument that you put forward at the end is kind of the thesis statement.

Not for me, but yeah. Well, but you know, that was the kind of the argument that started the whole thing. Yeah. I mean, it's the Josephine Tay of the whole thing. Yeah. And I feel like we glossed over the whole bath salts thing. Yeah. And in discussion of the real world that that for this for this

very brief moment in I don't remember which year it was there was like, no, no, Florida man is really doing this shit like, yeah, this is a thing. Yeah. You know, and the one incident that was all over the internet, all over the news for, you know, two weeks where the one guy in Florida was eating some of the dudes face, you know. He bit out his eyes. Jesus. Yeah. Like, wow.

You know, I kind of feel like we, we, we, on the one hand, I don't want to give that any, any attention because holy crap, that's awful. On the other hand, I feel like we didn't pay enough attention to that because that was a huge thing in the Zit guys. In 2013 though. In 2018. Like, that's when it really came up and, and that's right when you're seeing the final real zombie movie too. Yeah. Like, all of it kind of crested together and I don't know that we would have been interested in bath salts as a problem, had it not been for the popularity of zombie movies.

I think that's a meaningful point. Yeah. I totally agree with you. But I just feel like, you know, we bring nerdy into the real world. I'm like, this is... I nerdery into the real world. I'm like this. I missed that part of the real world. Yeah. Well, I just I feel like we should have hit that with a little bit more of an explanation point there. But, you know, and the idea that, you know, the zombies are the people we hate.

the idea that the zombies are the people we hate, you know, it's a thing. And, you know, I find that interesting. You know, in the final analysis that now we're in this place where we are living through an actual new shit pandemic. Yes. And maybe because of exhaustion from that, we're not gonna see this particular trope having the same impact. Right. Going forward. And so my question for you now is based on what we've been

through in the last 24 months. Uh-huh. Give or take. Yeah. What do you think is going to be having spent the time researching this? What do you think is going to be the next thing that we latch on? Like are we going to go for wear wolves? Like as a as a as a monster or yeah, as a metaphor for, you know, people being taken over by, you know, QAnon.

Are we going to go for vampires as a metaphor for, you and environmental destruction and parasitism or like you know what what what do you think like do you have you have an idea? Yeah I do I think that and that's I think that this this plague that we're living through is also another reason why zombie movies are not going to be culturally significant. Nobody wants to watch a movie reminding us of the reality that we live in right now. Yeah. So that's a big thing there. But in terms of where we go from here,

I do think that we're going to see more cult movies. Mm. I think you're going to see more cult stuff because cults can still hit you remember studios want to hit quadrants now. They don't want to make statements, they want to hit quadrants. So a cult movie will absolutely, to people on the left who have lost family members to QAnon, cult movies make sense. Oh, yeah. But to people on the right who think

that their family has been duped to QAnon folks, they still buy tickets too. So when people are leaning that way, they're going to think that, you know, the cult has taken over them. I also think alien movies are going to be bigger because there is the delusion that we all rallied together to defeat COVID.

We didn't. But I think we'll want to think that about ourselves when this is all over. So you'll see more alien movies, more alien invasion movies, which again, we'll hit the quadrant for people who don't like Haitians living under bridges in Texas. So that's, that's where I think it's going. I hate people. I really don't like it here anymore. I remember, I remember when I did the episode on, on, on V for Vendetta. And I found it by Alan Moore.

And he's like, I don't like it here anymore. And that was in 1984. Yeah. And I'm like, I get you. What are these days? I want to revisit that episode with me actually being here instead of a guest partner. I, you know what, that saves me research. I'm totally down for it.

Oh, okay. So, I don't mind. Because I have feelings. Yeah. And there might be updates that I need to add into that since, you know, we've. That's true, since it's been a little while. Yeah.

So. But anyway, yeah, I think we're gonna see cult movies start to crop up and I think we're gonna see alien movies start to crop up. Okay. I don't know of horror as a genre is going to be as popular. I think, but I also don't know what's gonna happen comedy-wise because being mean is not a seller anymore.

So. Isn't it, no? It's, no, not if you're going for all the quadrants. Oh, okay, well, okay, not if you're going for all the quadrants, but like At the risk of dating us right now Like how much money is Dave Chappelle making? That's not a movie though. That's a that's a comedy special and the

I'm not saying comedy is gonna be dead. Oh, okay. I'm saying comedy movies. I'm having a hard time seeing what the next type is because in the early 2000s it was like really gross out humor and then it became edgy shit and then it became Uncomfortable shit and then it became Challenging your own masculinity shit and now I'm not sure where to go from there So I'll be interested in seeing that. I don't think comedy is gonna go away. But. Well, no, comedy obviously has any thing. Comedy is primal. I don't think that's the way.

But I find it interesting what you said about horror though, because as a genre, I don't think it's going anywhere, either. I think it's just going to be a difference of what it is that we're afraid of. Maybe. And what it is we're trying to exercise by watching these films. I think if order is a genre that remains strong,

I think it'll be horror of the mind within the mind. It'll be a little more dissociative disorder. It'll be isolation type stuff. It'll be that. It will be much more the prison that we keep ourselves in and much less the prison that other people put us in. Okay. I think that'll be powerful.

It's powerful. Yeah, I think those things will be. If horror continues as a popular genre. And of course, there's always retreads of old properties. So, yeah, that's kind of, those are my predictions. Okay. I think all of that's pretty fair. I mean, the only thing I'm going to say is I think there's always a need within society for us to exercise the things that we are afraid of, you know, and throwing them up on a screen and turning them into a story is one of the ways that we do that. And so I think I don't think the genre of horror is going anywhere. I think again, that's kind of the reason I asked you the question

I did about where do you what do you think is going to be the next monster is because I don't think we're gonna stop needing to have a monster. Because we have needed a monster since the paleolithic. Right. And we still do. It's just what is the shape that monster takes? Sure. If that is logical, if that is logical. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. You know, I think I think

the Zid guys always needs to to to to project that somewhere. And yeah, so I don't think the genre of horror is going anywhere, but I think you're totally agree with you. 100% on the idea that zombie films probably are not going to be a thing in the same way for a while. Yeah. I think the undercurrent of them being now an established part of like this is just a subgenre

forever, I think it's going to be a thing, but I don't think they're going to be relevant. Yeah, I agree. Same. Yeah. I, you know, well, you're saying you agree. I agree with you because you made the point. But I think, you know, because we've all spent the last year in a lockdown of one degree or another, because we've all had to be walking around wearing masks and worrying about whether

we've got our immunizations up to date, anything that involves a plague is just not going to be fun for anybody. Right. You know, and so I think, I think it's gonna make it very hard to tell a zombie story that's gonna be a big hit. Yeah. I'm kind of interested to see whether we're gonna see shape, shifter, or werewolf movies.

Like somebody being overtaken by a curse kind of stuff. I could definitely, I could, again, I said cults, I think that that would fall within there. Possession movies maybe. Oh, yeah, well. Well, because we've already done that math any time the faith in the government goes down. Possession movies tend to climb up. So yeah.

Now that'll be interesting to me, because the people right now that have the least amount of faith and the government tend to lean right now, because the active efforts of specific individuals who I'm not going to name, to try to undermine faith in our democratic institutions. Yes. You know, leading up to and then in the wake of the last presidential election.

And so it'll be interesting to see whether like do you think there's a chance we might see like a political divided horror movies like like right wing horror movies that are possession flicks. Uh, that are possession flicks. No, but I think they will be milk toast enough that they will hit all the, again, I think people are, I think the studios are going for quadrant hitters. So I think that a quiet place was a really, really well directed movie that actually has a lot of right wing undertones to it. And I think that hit those quadrants.

I think that hereditary was a very, very thrilling, scary-ass possession movie that absolutely played toward the idea that trauma is a very real and vibrant thing in our lives. So I think it hit those quadrants. I think that's what you end up having is a lot of quadrant hitters. Okay. So, but when we talk about that though, we're talking about the ecosystem of studio films. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. We're living in a world where we're dealing with or we're surrounded by dealing with this little judge metal. We're surrounded by Kickstarter or Patreon funded efforts as well. And I'm wondering if in India horror, we might see like a sub-genre of horror films that are responding to the right-wing idea of, again, possession and distrust in government, if that might be a thing. trust in government, if that might be a thing. Crowdfunding tends to lean left, left and center. So I don't know that you'll see that

lining up along those lines. Okay. So yeah. I'm just, you know, I bring that up because on Facebook, I've seen a number of projects that are by their Patreon or her, you know, crowdfunding of one form or another that have been like, explicitly right wing. And I'm just wondering.

This is going to sound really snobby, but are they art or are they people talking? They're art. Okay. Cool. Like, you know, is it a lecture series or is it an actual thing with a plot? So. Oh, it's an actual thing with a plot. Okay. Like, I mean, it's shitty, but it's a thing with a plot. Like, you know, um, and, and I mean, that gets back to the idea of the democratization of media across the board. Whatever your leanings or whatever your connections are, there's now this ability to find your niche and try to find a way to manipulate the algorithm to get your support to get stuff made.

Right. And like we're still in the very beginning of this kind of age where that's a thing. And so I kind of wonder how we're going to see like genres of all kinds, whether it's fantasy or whatever, you know, diverge. And that kind of way based on, based on the niche audience that somebody's looking for. Yeah, I think also you're underestimating the role of the franchise film to suck all the air out of the room. To pull all of the oxygen. Yeah. Space. Yeah. No, that's true. That's a good point. I am. I am. I'm giving too much credit to to individual artists for their ability to get attention to

their project when we have a largely monolithic corporate structure. Which is again why I keep coming back to, well, we're going to find quadrant hitters, because they have dialed in how to make that money. Oh, yeah, I know they totally have. I think you're right. I think that's a great point. So, anyway. All right. So, got anything for people to read or watch

I'm going to very one more time one final time I'm going to recommend the Kurosagi Corpse Delivery Service Oh, yeah, and alongside that I'm going to recommend the manga male. And without getting into too much detail, that's another Japanese horror manga focused on ghosts and sort of zombies, but it's one in which the main character is a ghost. I don't know if Hunter is the right word, but problem solver, but they both have a very, very profoundly different paradigm from which they view the idea of undead.

And it's a very Asian and it's a very Buddhist and it's well worth reading. It's consistently both of them are very consistently entertaining. And I very highly recommend both of them. They're both published by a dark horse comics here in the United States with the English translations. So I'm going to recommend them very very strongly for anybody who's interested in a different kind of paradigm of horror. So that's that's going to be my reading

recommendation. How about you? I'm going to actually recommend a children's book called Happiness is and then the subtit the subtitles 500 things to be happy about You need to cleanse your palate after these 10 episodes That's that's a meaningful point. Yeah, I I agree with that. I can see that yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna recommend that Yeah, hey, where can people find you on social media? I can be found on social media at eHBlaylock on the Twitter machine. And I can be found as MrBlaylock on the tiki-tok and on

Instagram. We collectively can be found at Geek History Time on Twitter and a Geek History of Time, www.Geek History of Time on the just the internet in general. And where can you be found, sir? Let's see, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at duhharmony, two Hs in the middle. At both of those, you can also find me every first Tuesday of every month. Sling in puns with capital punishment, mild crew on twitch.tv forward slash capital puns. So those are the places you could find us. So in the meantime, you could find our podcast on Stitcher, Spotify, and the Apple Store.

Rate, subscribe, review. As always, give us the five star that you know we deserve. And tell your friends, my goodness, tell your friends. And let us know if you think that we should start doing merch. Prove had wrong. So anyway. What? So for a geek history of of time I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock reacting and shocked that calumny and until next time keep rolling 20s.

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