A Geek History of Time - Episode 136 - Villains Who Aren't; Heroes Who Aren't

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

So first thing foremost, I think being the addition of pant leggings is really when you start to see your heroes get watered down. The ability to go straight man, that one. Which is a good argument for absolute girls. Everybody is going to get behind me though, I love being and support numbers will go through. When you hang out with the hero, it doesn't go well for you. Grandfather took the cob and just slid it right through the bar. That's a good one. Okay.

And that became the dominant way our family did it. Okay. And so, both of my marriages, they were treated to that. Okay, wait, hold on. Yeah, rage, I could. How do you imagine the rubber chicken? My grandmother actually vacuumed in her pearls. Oh my god, I, I could. How do you imagine the love of a chicken? My grandmother actually vacuumed in her pearls. Oh my god, you always make fun of me.

We had the sexual revolution. It might have just been a Canadian standoff. We're gonna go back to 9-11. Do you get over it? Yeah, you don't understand the book, it's a school. Agra has no business being that big. With the cultists when we all win. This is a geek history of time where we connect nerdaries to the re-event. My name is Ed Blola, I'm a Geekist from Geekish, teaching here in New Orleans in California.

And, um, news in my life, my wife and I are house hunting. And you know what's interesting, the experiences that we've had in this show, or the things that we've talked about in this show, have actually informed some of the decisions that I've made regarding my future as a homeowner. One of the most important things is thanks to our discussions of horror films

and the different contexts in which we've talked about them is I'm gonna make sure not to go, you know, dropping my cell phone on a hard surface in the middle of recording. Hey, it was good enough for Hound Dog, all right? I almost did it with Hound dog Yeah, there you go. You also hear it and God, I forget what other song it is but I think it's like yeah, you really got me no it's

So one it's Louis Louis you can hear him drop the drumstick and that's that's a good point So yeah, it's true. Give me shit. Yeah, well, you know, not I'm not unzoo if if if rolls have been reversed like I'm just saying yeah, so in an event though I have determined that that went in if we do wind up Purchasing a new home thanks to the tropes that we've discussed here on the show One of the first things I'm going to do is I'm going to borrow a dog from a friend and I'm going to bring a dog from a friend and I'm going to bring the dog to the home and if the dog refuses to cross the threshold then we're immediately going to be contacting the parish because of course Catholic we're immediately going to be contacting the parish about, you know, getting intervention. Rather than,

oh, hey, you know, that's weird. Sparky doesn't want to come into the house. I wonder what might be going on, like literally every fucking white suburban family and every fucking horror movie ever. Who, you know, the dog freaks out and they chain the dog up out in the yard and then wake up the following morning to find that the dog is dead. And then they just blindly go on like, oh, man, that's really sad. Okay, keep moving everything in. Like, no, like call a priest, smudge, like something, maybe? Like, something right there, you know?

And I know that comics have made hay about the stupidity of white people buying houses in horror movies for quite some time. Eddie Murphy, you know, very, very famously in a routine talked about it. But like, no, after our discussions of horror films and everything else, I've gotten genre savvy enough that I'm not gonna let that happen in my family, for sure. What do you got going on? Well, I'm Damien Harmony.

I'm a Latin and drama teacher up here in Northern California. I don't have these problems because my dog is deaf and blind. Some say that when one sense fails the other's Yeah, no, not true. Turns out they just continue to generate as a group. So don't borrow him because he wouldn't know the threshold. He went sniffing my garbage can thinking it was my leg today.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, but he's still my cuddle, buddy. I still hang out with him on the couch quite often. So, yeah, that's that's pretty much what I've got going on. I'm boring fellow. So, well, yeah, in some aspects than in others, you're not. Don't kink, champ. No, I won't. Pre-production meeting. Yeah, okay, yeah, true. All right. So, what are we doing this week? Well, I figured it was time because Disney is dropping all kinds of content soon and all

kinds of like ads and trailers and stuff like that. And it occurred to me that like that we saw WandaVision. We saw Captain America winner soldier and we saw Loki. Okay. And it seemed to me that you had two that were villains and one who was genuinely a hero. Okay.

And that line blurred for the villains. And the hero was villainized by a certain segment. And so it occurs to me that perhaps we should actually give a good look at what a villain and a hero is and see if we don't have others that could blend over. Okay, all right. I have a few that I think I could probably rant about. Okay. So, you know, one way or the other, villains who aren't any heroes who aren't. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So, uh, you want a Rochambo for it? Best of three. All right. All right. Here we go. Got you. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right.

All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right.

All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All I didn't do anything but rock. Yeah, ever. Rock always wins. So that one time that you did paper. That's the one time that I did paper. But I still end up beating people with, here's the funny thing in both of my marriage with previous, I still only ever did rock.

I haven't done anything but rock since like 1996. And and people know this about me. And it's kind of I do. So he says it's number one. That's weird. Number two. You kind of are faced with a moral decision now knowing that I'm going to throw a rock. Yeah. Well, badly do you want to win? Yeah. And so I just kind of put it on to the other person. It's a weird passive aggressive. Yeah. Passive aggressive. Yeah. And so I just kind of put it on to the other person. It's a weird passive aggressive. That's a remarkable, yeah, passive aggressive. And that's a remarkable level of mind-grooming. You know what I'm saying?

There is so much meta going on because you know, I know, that you're only gonna throw rock. Yep. I know, you know that I know. Mm-hmm. And like, shit, what do I do? Yeah. Yeah. And eventually you just throw paper because what kind of dick wouldn't eventually? Like, right. Like, do you want to give you, you got to give you something? Yeah. Like, yeah. So it kind of reminds me of that, oh God, what was her name? The gal who, was it Marina, a Brahmavic,

a Brahmavic, the one who just sat there? And basically there were like 74 items that she had on a table. And she would just sit there and people could do whatever they wanted with those items to it. Right, yeah, yeah. In 1972.

Yeah. Yeah, so I yeah. In 1972. Yeah. Yeah, so I clearly am on par with her. Kind of, yeah. Yeah. Oh my God, I could set myself up as performance art and just like, I will play Roxas's paper with you, best two out of three. I will only ever throw rock.

It's up to you what you're going to do. And I'll just keep making icon, I will, I fuck you. Well, well, I like it. Just, and you know, I fuck you. Well, well I think you need to write that up as a grant proposal. Not about it. You know what? National now for the battle be my only fans There you go. I'll have two only fans because I was gonna do one called work in hard and it's just me doing you doing household chores around the house Yeah, never anything sexual at all

He's just you doing household chores around the house. Yeah, yeah, never anything sexual at all For certain subset of suburban women like see honey. He can do it. Yeah He's working hard I'm sorry. I'm putting on my charon voice Yeah, yeah, I always imagine charon. I had a student once translate his name is Sharon Okay, and from then on I was like my God, Charon is Karen's sister. She's the one who reserve the park. And so this is the little Tucker's time. You, you're not, your people need to not be here until 11. Yeah. Cause this is our time. And Charon would come off the boat yelling at I.N.S. with this Starbucks and his little lemons. So you don't get to get, no, I've seen your type. Okay. So. So. So. So.

So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So.

So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So.

So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So.

So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. I really wish I could draw. No kidding. Yeah, but no, this is my other only fans, which is just, you wanna play Roxas' paper today. Yeah. And I'll just, there you go. Yeah. Or if there's some sort of like, maybe that'll be like TikTok content for me. There you go.

Where it's just, you wanna come live? Okay, yeah, that's the three. Yeah, that's the three. How bad leave you wanna win today? Yeah. Cause this is all I'm gonna do. And really, it's me pounding my fist into my hand So it looks mildly erotic

Vagley. Yeah, so like I wouldn't say mildly it's vaguely vaguely yeah, it's like yeah, yeah erotica adjacent. Yes Yes, like it's it's there's a parallel there right, but it's subtext. Yeah, like the motions are there Yeah, but no human should do those motions are there. Yeah, but no Cume should do those motions like that. Yeah. Yeah And we're back to kingshame. Right No, I just mean physically there's a lot of chafing that would happen You see how tight my fist is? Yeah, yeah, it's not okay. Yeah, it's that's just not I mean unless you're into that I Again saying no, I would say until the pandemic is over. Yeah, you have a moral responsibility not to

chase yourself to the point of needing to go to the ER. Okay. Okay. Yeah. All right. So throw paper, throw paper, slap it on top. That's fine. Like that's. Wow. All right. So I won. So I'm going to go the rest of us all. Everyone lost. So you're going to go first. Are you going to villainize a hero or... I'm going to... I'm going to... I am going to lionize a villain. Okay.

And I'm going to start with the most unlikely hero that a villain is. And by unlikely hero, I don't mean like, oh yeah, Thanos was right the whole time. No, I mean the guy that you're like, he did nothing important. Okay. And that is Walter Peck. Okay. You remember Walter Peck from Ghostbusters, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If ever there was a man born to public service who was trying to do the right thing and ran into greeting protagonists, it is Walter Peck. He worked for the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, right? The one started by Nixon. Yeah. He wanted to verify that the media stories

about a new private contracting group commonly referred to as the Ghostbusters. And additionally, he was rightly, as it is his purview of his job, concerned with the Ghostbusters possible environmental impact. He said as much. Okay, yeah. They were operating on homemade technology. I mean, they had a colander, right?

Yeah. And that was way beyond the wiring capabilities of the building as they had admitted when they first leased the building. Yes. He wanted to assess the presence of noxious, possibly hazardous waste chemicals created by the Ghostbusters storage facility. Okay. Peck did the courteous thing too. He

sought to gain through professionalism and courtesy, what he could have just demanded by right of the agency. And as soon as he meets with Dr. Peter Venkman, he is immediatelyimed. Yeah speaking of environmental concerns. Yeah, like and peck lays out quite clearly his requests He's very direct very clear There any leads lays out his reasoning for them and the necessity for this and vancman instead of cooperating and Tagonizes peck to the point where peck gives him one last chance before coming back with a court order Yeah, face with no other choice given the pollutive possibilities proposed by the president of the Poltergeist Portability Production Parapanelia Preveirs.

Peck produces a proper cease and desist order promising prompt proprietary pause of the Phantom Prison's power supply on the property. You're very proud of that, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the last time I did something like that is all bees. So I just turn them upside down. Yeah, there you go. Now, on paper, the word Phantom also starts with a piece. Yeah, you the last time I did something like that is all bees. So I just turn them upside down. Yeah, there you go. Now on paper, the word phantom also starts with a pea.

Yeah, credit for that. Yeah, okay. It's half a point. So now he saw the potential risk. He assessed the potential risk and he acted within his means to do so as an official from the eight EPA. Now, I'm not here to say that it went well. It did go badly.

This is absolutely true. But he had no way of knowing that. Venkman was not a reliable narrator. Neither was Egon Spangler. Neither of them said, oh, here's all the regulations that we followed. Here's our license, sure. Nothing like that was posted. Okay, well, hold on now.

Sure, hold on now. Sure. They are both professors. They are both doctorates in parapsychology. Uh-huh. So within their field, within their field, their experts, right? He's a government official who's supposed to be like dealing with scientists, right? I'm going to argue.

Okay. Okay, Vigmund, I can't argue with Vigmund was just a sleaze ball in a prick. Like there's no, like, you know. He's literally slimy. Yeah, literally, quite literally. But, but Spangler, I don't think the issue is a lack of reliability. I think it's a lack of communication ability to the normals.

I'm willing to argue that like if Spangler of communication ability to the normals. I'm going to argue that like if Spangler had not been hampered by his inability to talk to regular people. Okay. He might have, you know, there might have been, there might have been something closer to a meeting of the minds there.

The trouble is, Venkman was the interlocutor. Yes. Between Dickless, I'm sorry, I mean, Pek and the rest of our protagonists. And so, you know, he portrayed Pek as, however, this, you know, Needle Dick jerk. Right. And that was how everybody else then interacted with him.

And then we get to stance, ray, and ray is just one of those kind of people. He banned wagon. Yeah, one, one, he banned wagon. He's a follower of personality. Number one, number two, well, he's the heart of the ghost puzzle. He is, he is. He is. And, and, and the thing is not only is he the heart rather than the heart rather than the head, but he's also one of those kind of guys who's like, don't you, it's like obvious, come on. It's right there. And like, no, you're operating at a doctorate level in parapsychology, nobody else in the room understands

that shit. And again, can't talk to the normals in a very different kind of way. Okay, but here's the thing, two things with that. One, parapsychology does not make you an expert in environmental impact. Granted, but what I'm talking about, I'm talking about when they told him,

if you do this, if you just shut it down, it's gonna be a catastrophe. Let us try to explain why No, but they had their chance and that's the problem is that the the Exactly exactly Handy cap is that vankeman represented the ghost busters yeah, and And and that was the problem because at this point peck is like this is a very

Needed thing to do. He even told Venkman that he'd had his chance and that this was now necessary because he couldn't get through professionalism what he needed to get. Now, Dr. Venkman then goes on to state that he would not be held responsible, which is a really weird take

given that he'd claimed that he didn't have to abide by government requests previously. Like pick one. Okay. Fisher cut bait. Yeah. You know, all right. Now, did Peck take what happened to personally?

Yeah. But was he doing the job that he was hired to do? A job which has helped clean up the water, clean up the streets, and the waste production of our country. Also, absolutely. He is a hero of the most common type. He is the kind that we don't normally think of. He's a bureaucrat in a very important agency designed to keep us safe from capricious and responsible business owners. So I think that he has been much maligned. And again, afterwards,

he absolutely took it very personally, but they kept antagonizing him during a crisis. he absolutely took it very personally, but they kept antagonizing him during a crisis. And I do think that at this point, he has bought into his own narrative by the end, but all the way up until act three, Walter Peck is every bit the hero. I think he's a tragic hero, probably to the level of, I'm going to say Jason and the Argonauts. Okay. All right, well, all right. No, I think there's a compelling argument there. I get what you're saying there. I think he's also hampered narratively by the fact that Ghostbusters was made in A.V. 3.

Yeah, it came out in A.V. 4. So yeah, it's made native. It's the the height of the Reagan era. Yes, libertarian government is not the solution. Right. government is the problem. And I can't do a good Reagan impersonation. Well, yes, but no, yeah, yeah, government is not the solution. Yeah, government is not the solution. Government is the problem. Yeah.

And so simply based on where the zipgeist was, federal government employee is gonna be shorthand for ineffectual, hobbling, self-importance. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, all of everything that is attached to his character, like even when he is trying to get everything through professionalism,

even when he is doing his job the right way, the way he is portrayed is as being anxious and so important. Oh, fissious, yeah, absolutely. You know, and so I think he's kind of boneed just by the role he's supposed to play in the story. Sure.

You know, in the same way that I've, you know, spoken up for, you know, Dumbledore kind of being fucked. Yeah. For the same reasons, it's like, yes, he does some shit that makes him a dick, but like, look at how he falls into the narrative. is like yes, he does some shit that makes him a dick, but like Look at how he falls into the narrative, right? Right. Absolutely. All right. So all right. Who are you going to lionize or

Caron eyes? I'm going to start With possibly the one that is hardest for me to do oh Pantera, no, no, no, um, so I'm the Warhammer 40K guy of the two of us. And I have two heroes from 40K who I'm going to take down a peg or three. And I have one villain who it's going to hurt to do this, but I'm going to have to stand up for him. Magnus the Red. And you're like, I have no idea. So I've got to give some background.

So in the 40K universe, back in the 30th millennium, or 31st millennium, the emperor wound up creating the primarchs. He created 20 demigod level superhumans who were going to be the genetic pattern and the commanders for his space marine legions. They were going to be the leaders of his great crusade to spread out through the galaxy and reconquer, I mean reunite the human race as it had spread out across the stars. Okay.

And in the process of creating them, the forces of chaos swept through his laboratory and picked up the infant primarks and transported them throughout the galaxy. Spread them out onto a whole bunch of different planets all over, all over, everywhere. And it as a way to try to thwart the emperor's efforts. One of those infant primarks was Magnus the Red. Okay. Who is one of the few primarks who is physically clearly a mutant. Most of the primarks, at least when they first

showed up anywhere. You said you're gonna take them down a peg, so I assume this is a hero in the lexicon. No, Magnus the Red is a villain who I'm lionizing. Oh, okay, okay. I'll get there. Half of the primarks, I'll cut some things out. I'll fast forward a little bit. Half of the primarks fell to chaos.

Okay. And essentially it's like the war in heaven from Dante. Okay. The half of the primarks fell to chaos and led their space marine legions in an attempt to overthrow the emperor. All right. Half of them remained loyal. And so the half that fell became the leaders of the chaos space marines who are one of the factions within the game. Magnus the Red is one of the primarchs

who fell to chaos. Okay. And every one of the primarchks who fell is attached to a certain kind of cardinal sin. But half of them is 10 except for the fact that two of them are the unknown primarks that are not spoken of we know nothing about them. Sure. In game that's a way for you to go oh yeah my space marines nobody knows who their primarck is they're just setting for one of the two lost ones. I like this paint scheme. Yeah, and you can do whatever they tell you want to do with it. Cool.

I like that then. I like that. So, and then, anyway, they've built everything up in the floor, and anyway, so there's all kinds of epileptic tree theories about what happened to them. But so, Magnus got deposited as an infant on a planet that had been colonized a couple of thousand years before by humans with elevated psychic potential. Oh, I remember them. And they had gradually over that thousand years, they had built this society where everybody on the planet was at least a little bit psychic.

this society where everybody on the planet was at least a little bit psychic. Some of them were very powerfully psychic. And they had gathered lore from every place they could. And essentially they had like the galaxy's version of the library of Alexandria. And they were all scholar mystics with big brains and wireless big brains wireless technology to each other. Okay, sure. And Magnus developed his own prodigious psychic powers from infancy and he became the most powerful psycher of the primarchs. Okay, so did the rest of them like have it through some other means and he did it through

some sort of primogeniture or did everybody just kind of develop it on their own and all roughly have the same level. You're talking about the primarks? Yeah, yeah, the psychic ones, and their psychic powers, did they all develop? No, in the four of the primars. For the primars. Oh, for the primarks, no.

Magnus is the big psychic. Several of them are like they kind of have the kind of have the mojo and there are some of them who are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, one of them when I knocked down a hero, a pecker too. And so Magnus developed his psychic powers, learned more psychic stuff from the emperor who was the most powerful psycher in the human reaches of the galaxy anywhere.

Okay. And in the course of his psychic studies, he encountered intelligences within the warp. Okay. And this is before anybody knew who Chaos was, except the Emperor. Okay. He encountered intelligences within the warp

and he made a bargain with them to save the lives of his legion because his sons, his his spacemarines were first off a whole bunch of more psychics because they were his right from his genetic template and additionally, whole bunch of them were falling prey to mutations that were destructive. Okay. He made a bargain with this intelligence in the warp that promised that no, no, I'll stabilize your men's your your guys mutations and You know and they can they can build their psychic powers and so his legion became

Warrior magi superhumans, okay, and his planet He helps the people of his planet build it up into this glittering Edifice of knowledge and culture and all of these things Mm-hmm, and then the emperor came along and said Psychic powers sorcery specifically sorcery is dangerous. Okay, so no more of that shit. So don't do the thing don't do the thing don't do the thing that you've been doing and have been successful at doing So don't do that voodoo that you do so well. Oh, I'm not even mad

um And and they're they had they had the council at Nykeia The planet Nykeia. Oh, okay council on the planet Nykeia sure emperor Telling everybody don't do this particular kind of stuff. Anyway, and Magnus argued. Magnus essentially became the leader. So he's Lucifer? Well, sort of.

So you're rehabilitating Lucifer? No. Good for you. Yeah, well, I attend to Jesuituit parish. It's what we do. So but he he said no look look at what I've accomplished Right. Look at what more we could do the sure. Yeah, doesn't know you're you're cutting you're cutting off an arm right like the whole human race Right. Why should we kneel to these humans? Yeah, the emperor nice the emperor listened to him. Uh-huh. Listened in earwax to him. The emperor then heard from a number of other primarchs who were like, no, I grew up on a planet

where it was ruled by psychers and they were terrible and they murdered people and like psychics are bad. Okay. By the way, that same primarch was another one who fell to chaos for different reasons. But anyway, moving on. And so Magnus was in the end, the emperor said, no, sorry, but knock it off. Yeah, I've heard from both sides. Black smoke, not white smoke. Yeah, no, we're done. And the emperor fucked off back to earth to work on whatever secret project it was that he had going on. He wasn't

telling anybody about he's doing hot Emperor shit. Yeah, he's doing hot Emperor shit. I love that. And so Magnus went home to his planet and brooded and meditated and cast his consciousness out into the universe. Basically did exactly what the Emperor told him not to do. Right. Because like, come on man and in the process of doing that he picked up on

psychic vibes and figured out that Horus the the Emperor's chosen son who was now leading the crusade to conquer I mean reunite all of humanity sure was going to turn on him okay and he immediately gathered up all of his psychic might and flung his consciousness across the stars toward earth. And in the process of doing that in order to warn the emperor of what was coming, he shattered incredibly powerful psychic wards that the emperor had put up and created a rift through which demonic entities nearly overran Holy Terra oops and and and totally shattered the Emperor's project sure destroy a whole bunch of stuff caused all kinds of damage and The Emperor then sent were then sent, uh, uh, layman Russ and the sixth legion later to be known as the Space Wolves, okay, Wulkefenderica to, to punish him.

Okay. And, and make sure he understands you violated my orders. And it's, it's the, it's the what did I just say? What did, yeah, what did I just tell you? Yeah, and somewhere along the way, the powers of chaos corrupted the instructions that got sent to the sixth legion, and it got changed from sanction them to, no, no,

sanction them. Capital S, sanction, yes, yeah. And so the space wolves show up on Tisca, the planet of Sorcerers, and they blow the shit out of the place. All of the normal humans, everybody, all the civilians got evacuated off of the planet before the Space Wolves arrive. And Magnus, not wanting to defy his father any further, locked himself up in his tower and said, I'm not going to fight them. And he ordered his legion. You're going to put your weapons down, you're not going to fight them. They're going to show up and we're going to accept our punishment.

Okay. Because he hadn't gotten the memo that the punishment had been changed from. because he hadn't gotten the memo that the punishment had been changed from. We're gonna drag you to Tara and give you a smacking on the behind, dude, no, no, we're gonna kill you all. Well, the space will show up and the thousand sons, Magnus' Legion said, no, we're warriors, we're not doing that, fuck that.

You were right, they're a bunch of fucking hellling barbarians, by the way, literally because it was. Yeah. And so no, we're gonna fight. So they started fighting. So they Lucifer, Lucifer. Yeah. Okay. And then the Space Wolves were winning. Sure. Let me guess, Magnus couldn't stand by and let his people get slaughtered. Couldn't stand by and watch his sons be destroyed. So he's essentially acting morally and knowing that this is going to be a problem. And then he cried out to anyone or anything that would listen. So including demons that were just let to rest. Yes.

To save him and his sons. At which point, layman Russ, he and layman Russ had gotten into a fight. Layman Russ was picking him up to break him over his knee. Oh, been in Batman style. Batman and then Zech, the change of ways, the chaos lord of magic intervened, hold Magnus away,

hold all of the thousand sons who remained away, and left their planet, the planet of sorcerers, as a shard-smoking husk, at which point now Magnus had no choice but to throw in with... George H. W. Bush. Yes. Because the thousand points of light. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Wow. Actually, I had never

thought of that. But had no choice but to throw in with Horace. Oh, okay. Because there was no way, which is the guy who's trying to warn his dad about. He's trying to warn his father about. Right. And so there is, there is a line within the, the 40k fandom that says, Magnus did nothing wrong. That is the tagline. Magnus did nothing wrong. Okay. There is a counter argument, which is normally my thing. No, fuck that.

Magnus did everything wrong. Magnus was a self-important, thought he knew everything, smart, little shit, who didn't understand there was a bigger picture, did I, but for this one time, for this one time, I gotta tell you how much this fucking hurts. Okay, this is pain. Because I gotta say, it sounds like he was not given the information, so I can't hold him responsible for not knowing the information.

And so it seems to me that like, yeah, you kind of have to be a bit of a moral relativist on that. It's, you know what it is? It's what did he know? When did he know it? Yeah. Yeah. No, and there, and on that level, yes, there's a legitimate argument to be made. Could also be said, you know, it was a Ponsan little drama queen, but... Well, and it depends... But all of philosophy if you're a consequentialist then he was clearly in the wrong. Yeah, if you are a Constance kind of person there are moral constants of your an existentialist

You would say no, he he made the best choice and now he's living with the consequences of yeah each time yes Yeah, so now and yeah So anyway, that's that's okay Magnus the red sure villain who Maybe who had a really good point Maybe he had a point maybe he got done dirty. Okay. I like it All right. Well, let me do a hero. You're okay.

And I'm gonna take this hero down a peg. And I'm gonna actually slice the needle real thin here. Not only that's a mangle metaphor. It's a third one, but okay. Yeah. It's a camel. Anyway, you slice it through the needle. Oh, getting back to pillacle reference.

Yeah, all right. So I'm going to go Star Wars. Okay. And I'm going to argue that Anakin Skywalker is a villain. Okay. Okay. Yes. Okay.

But I don't, not for any of the reasons that you think. Mass murder of an entire tribe. Nope, leaving that aside. We're gonna set aside. Mass murder of children. Genes that, yep, set in a side. Like, okay. Yes.

Uh, so episode two, we're gonna go to episode two, okay, where he genocides a Bedouin tribe. Yes. And then goes back to his girlfriend and she's like, Oh, it's okay, which is weird. Okay, so I'm gonna say maybe we could have a conversation at some point about... ...enabling genocide.

Yeah, yeah. But, and I'm also not going to say that he's a villain because of his pogrom against the Jedi. Well, no, because we've heard you go on about that one. But also you don't get to slaughter an entire religious order, even if they had it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they had it coming because they were dumb, not because they deserve to be killed.

Okay. Yeah. Um, play stupid games, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. You know, uh, but I'm going to say that he's not a villain for either of those reasons. I am going to say he's a villain specifically because he steals a bereaved man's droid.

Okay. This is what makes him this. All the other stuff, you're like, okay, but at the same time, he threw the emperor down the shaft so we're eager. Our senior and J-walking, it is that. Yes. Okay. So send weapons guns and money. The

shit is hit the fan. Yeah. So. So it's the J walking that really does it for you. It tips the balance. Yes. Okay. So here's the thing. He because again, he threw the emperor down the shaft, you know, 20 years later while the emperor is torturing his son in front of him. So, you know, fairs fair. later while the emperor is torturing the son of the front of him. So you know, fairs fair. He's zeroed the balance there. But this never got zeroed out. Okay. Speaking as the Catholic, number one, that aid how it works. Anyway, number two, even if you interpret dogma badly, still not how it works. I ended the emperor that he literally put into power. Okay, well, on a poetic level, okay. Anyway, so all of that, everything else zeros out. All of his heroism is zeroed out.

It's one to one all the way across. You killed off an entire religious order that was dedicated to our keeping peace in the galaxy for 20,000 years, but you also killed the one guy. So, you know, fairs fair. Okay. You killed an entire better one tribe, but you also blew up a lot of droids at one point.

Okay. You, you, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you episode two. He goes and finds his mother. Yes. He also has met his stepdad. A man who bought her freedom and then let her live free. You know, he bought her freedom basically and then he began to court her after she had gotten over the trauma of that. Yes. And then they fell in love as older folks often do and they started making a life together and she helped raise his son Oh, and And there was a very good tight knit blended family. Yeah Anakin shows up and I don't even mind the disruption to the family dynamic that he had planned to create

That's fine. He's a teenager. You get you get you get some leeway there. But Anakin shows up goes and rescues his mom from the sand people. Yeah. Who had slaughtered like a whole bunch of the surrounding farmers because there were issues that were being fomented and stuff like that. Okay. Um, and Cleague lost his leg in the process. Yeah. Uh, so Anakin goes and finds his mom his mom, turns out he didn't get

to her in time, that is a bummer, it's really sad. Too bad he didn't learn how to like bring people back to life. Yeah. But it's also too bad that Ray healed a sand worm instead of her friend Poe's arm. But so that happened. Right, yeah, nothing. But so he comes back with her body, which is awesome.

I think it's really good closure for the family. They can truly mourn her now. They have a grave site and stuff like that. He buries her. And again, he's grieving, so I give him a lot of leeway for being a dick. He's a teenager. He's fixed with massive power.

But then when he leaves, he takes C3PO with him. Okay. Now people will argue that C3PO was made by Anakin as a child. However, he left C3PO with his mother, a gift to his mother. Apparently slaves could own property. Fine. Totally fine. Um, some does a Roman thing. Yeah. You know, uh, and Wato was those are Roman things. Yeah. You okay? You know, uh, and Wato was chill enough about it. Yeah. Okay. So, uh,

mom got to take C3PO with her. Yeah. Uh, she is legally married to Cleague. Therefore, when she dies, her property reverts to her husband. Okay. Anakin did not say, he did not even say,

hey, I'm, I made that, I made that I'm gonna take it with me No, they literally just took it on on board the ship and absconded with a droid that speaks the the the binary language of moisture Vaporators which are very necessary When you're moisture farming in Tatooine to the point where Owen was looking for just such a droid 20 years later His family was missing that. So Anakin is 100% a thief. I wonder if that colored relationship that Owen later had with Luke. I would say it colored Owen's idea toward Anakin because oh this guy just stole from my brief dad The one droid that really made our lives a little bit easier right after my stepmom's funeral Like he came and then he took away our stuff like you didn't even say um would it be nice if or whatnot

Okay, and it's not like 3PO served any goddamn purpose For the next movie nice. Yeah, like he literally got his head taken off shortly thereafter. So if you want to argue that a 3PO is a sentient being, then that's a problem too. But either way, this is the thing that makes Anakin a villain. Okay. Grand theft larceny of a droid.

Okay, so auto theft. Yeah. Effective. tomaton theft. Yeah, okay. Okay. I genuinely don't know how to reply. That's how airtight my case is. Okay. And then he gave it if that's the tack you want to take and ultimately he then gave that stolen merchandise Yeah, to a rich woman. I mean good heavens Well, okay very much signaling that he was gonna side with Palpatine in that way Yeah, I think you're reaching there. I don't I don't think that was no I think I think what signals is going to side with Palpatine is all the genocide. The Calisdisregard for...

The Calisdisregard. For Tuscan life. Like, yeah. Yeah, okay. Also, also that. Yeah, also that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, arson, murder, and J-walking.

Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. All right, okay, oh. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. So Anakin, villain. Okay. I, yeah, I think I'm trying to figure out how to, how to state what I want to say here. I think you're, you're, um, embroidering a case that's already pretty well stitched up.

That's a good way to put it in. I think like, yeah, it's kind of, I don't think you need the red accent stitching on the black leather. It's like, when it's already pretty tightly put together. It's like when like, you know,

if William Wallace gives his big speech to everybody and like, oh, and then somebody comes out and goes, and and and let's not forget the important laws about abutment on church grounds. He did that too. Yeah. Yeah. Like, literally nobody gives a shit.

Yeah, it's like, no, let's go into that mall because the zombies can't get to us there. And there's an orange Julius. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I like that one too.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure I lifted that from somewhere. I can't even mind. I'm, yeah, but still pretty good. All right. All right. All right, so my next one. Yes.

Now I'm gonna take a hero down on a peg. Dr. Henry Jones Jr. Jr. Yes, Jr. So when I was a kid I Wanted to be an archaeologist. Okay, and the reason I wanted to be an archaeologist because you were searching for fact not truth Okay, that too okay, yeah, but because I saw Rangers the Lost Ark and all the hot dams he gets yes Yeah as co-eds yeah, and and, and, and, and, and I, I wanted to be Indiana Jones.

Sure. Now, here's the thing. There have been plenty of other people. Plenty of other people. Yeah. Who have written far more complete, far more inside baseball, explanations of why exactly he is a terrible archaeologist. Oh yeah, yeah.

Like all of the stuff he doesn't do... He doesn't make a grid for anything. Doesn't make a grid for anything, doesn't document anything. Anything, like anywhere. But I will give him a full pass on dumping over that thing to dive back under the petroleum so he doesn't catch fire I'm I'm cool with that. Okay. You saved your life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and any any kind of of Descuration committed in in the process of actually saving his own life. Yes. I Think we can we can be a little bit lenient with yeah, but but here's the thing

Indiana Jones is not only a bad archaeologist. He is a hero because he punches Nazis. Yes. And that's that's like I can't take that away from him. Right. Right. However, he's also kind of that shitty moderate liberal Who is like no, no the Nazis are bad guys but Have you noticed how much stuff he does that involves Exoticizing non-white cultures The very opening of the first film. Like the iconic, this is how we get to know who this guy is. Is him by himself without any academic support,

without anybody else there, without a native interpreter, without consulting with the locals. He's climbing into, I don't know, is it a temple complex? Is it a tomb? Like we don't even know. There's this idol. Right. Now it's an idol. Yes. We hear it repeated, throw me the idol. I'll throw you the whip. Right. Right. So an idol indicates it's a holy object. Yes. It is a sacred object to a group of people. Also, it appears to be made out of solid gold.

So there's monetary issues there. Sure. So he is in the process of sneaking past a native tribe somewhere in the Amazon right right in order to steal a golden idol that he's going to take and put in a museum somewhere yeah that's oh because because remember his refrain yeah it belongs in a museum. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's in a temple. Yeah, it belongs there. There they appear to be actively using it since they try to shoot you full of fucking arrows. Yep. Also, it has still extant and very active security measures. Yeah. You know, I mean, nobody, yeah, nobody like and we can't even try to argue well, you know, it'll be it'll be safe

Under the watchful eyes of Indiana State University's museum like whatever the fuck it is he works for never like did we find out what university He actually works for is he at Yale? I mean, yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, but but so he's got to be near Washington DC. Yeah, yeah. Okay, but but so all the same. What museum is it? He's put this in and honest to God in 1930, whichever year it is the movie supposed to take place in. In that because it's before 39. Oh, he was at university to Chicago. Okay, university. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. Because if you zoom in on the post, yeah, okay. So watch brothers. Yeah. So here's the thing. Mm-hmm. Is the University of Chicago in 1938, 37? Mm-hmm. Going to have the ability to keep that idle somehow safer than the giant set of traps you nearly got killed by in order to plunder it from the natives.

You had to un-mute. Kill you on the way out. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Yeah. So, yes, he punches Nazis. Points for punching Nazis. He's still a colonizer.

Yeah, you're absolutely, I I was gonna say he sounds British. Yeah. You're such children, we need this tool. Just like that, yes. Um, you know. Oh, actually, I'm sorry, I did some more looking. He taught at Marshall College in Bedford, Connecticut and Barnett College in Fairfield, New York, both fictional.

Yeah. Okay, so it wasn't University of Chicago. Maybe he did his grab work there or something. But still. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're point out. Yeah. Neither one of those sounds like a place that is going to have. That's true. He's not going in the Smithsonian. Right. And even that, you still don't get to. Still don't get to other people's property. Yeah. Sacred object. I'm gonna say sacred object. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And then at the beginning of last crusade, he winds up as a kid.

Warning somebody who did it basically. Who's basically doing the same thing. He's doing later on. The difference is they're doing it because they're actually on a no shit treasure hunt and they're gonna sell whatever it is to a private collector. Which I'm sorry, Indiana Jones still gets a retainer fee

from Marcus Brody. Yeah. He says and my normal, you know, my normal fee. My normal retainer. Right. So it's not different. Yeah, you're, oh, I am 100% I'm on board. Yeah, university or a museum like no, dude.

All you've done is legitimize it a little, but not even. Yeah, I mean, too. Now admittedly again, movies are relics of the 80s. We're living in an era where, you know, we recognize. You shouldn't do that shit. You're wallpaper of Colonyl, colonialism. Yeah, but movies are our eternal. So I don't mind the meaning

of different things to different people. So yes, and yet you're 100% right. He is a hero who in his spare time is a fucking villain. Yeah. Yeah. Who's a shitty tomb robber? Yeah, he really is. I'm sold.

And that hurt. Yeah. That was painful for me. I'm sold. I'm so, and that hurt. Yeah. That was painful for me. I'm so, I'm so, I do like that you didn't even, just like I did with my very clear argument about why Anakin is truly a villain. Because of the auto theft. Yeah, not because of the genocide or the irony of that.

You didn't bring up the fact that he slept with Marion before she was of age to consent or, or, or, or, or. Or, or, or, you didn't bring up the fact that he slept with Marion before she was of age to consent, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, yeah, no. No. So, okay. I'm taking a more political point of his villain, like him being a sleazebag. Right.

Like, yeah, I mean, that's certainly his, yeah. That's also a factor. It would be like being, like, yeah, I mean, that's also true. Yeah, that's also a factor. It would be like being like, and I'm also gonna say to figure out the slip with Marion before age of consent, you'd have to do the math, which when we're talking about, well, she literally says I was a child.

Oh, yes, she does that. And he says, you knew what you were doing. And it's like, ah, okay. Buddy. Yeah, no, okay, never mind. All right, do you want me to heroize a villain or villainize a hero? What you do, you man. Okay, let's see, I've done Walter Peck, I have done Anakin.

I am gonna turn another hero into a villain. All right. This is less of villain and more just nowhere near the God that everybody thinks he is. Okay. Okay. I'm not knocking a hero down a peg. We're not in God now.

Yeah. So, Starfleet's worst engineer without a doubt Montgomery Christopher Jorgensen Scott serial number SE19754. Oh, that's going to come up. That's going gonna come up. That's gonna come up. Oh, okay. Okay. So he might be on the right side of things,

but nothing about what he does shows anything other than a man who's constantly putting out fires on a very poorly built ship. Okay. And he's either doing that, or he's so dreadfully incompetent that he thinks it's the best ship that there is. To the point where, and he's still terrible at its upkeep.

It's never in good working order. To the point where he actually starts a fist fight when somebody questions the quality of the enterprise. Right, okay, no, no, you're for it then. They didn't, they didn't question it. Yeah, they called it what it was. Oh, it should be all the way as garbage. That shit was falling apart every five seconds.

Oh, all right, no, you know what? Kirk was demanding 150% of the efficiency. All he does. And that's all he does. Right. That's incompetent command. That's neon scutty. Okay, here's the thing.

What else does he do besides cooks more out of the engines to go faster? What else does the fucking script give him the opportunity to do? No, you can't do that, because Indiana Jones, because of the script, stole a golden idol. Right, fine.

All right, so he may be entertaining. I'm not saying he's not, but he's rarely honest with the captain about the ship's capabilities. Or he is so incredibly incompetent that he's thoroughly unaware as to his capabilities. Yeah, we know canonically, we know canonically, sadly. Yeah, I can't counter that one because he said as much to Jordi. Yes.

Yeah. And even then, I still think that he's gaslighting himself quite honestly. I think he's a stone cold moron. I really do. I think he's outkicked his coverage. He has no idea how to do the thing that he's supposed to do now. Outkicked his coverage. My brother, when he was in the army, he sprinted the mile. And that put him in a certain bracket.

Yeah. That he had to stay within now. Oh, yeah. Done his absolute best. And now suddenly that pushes him up instead of doing what he normally could do and actually work toward improvement. Yeah. You know, and I think that Scott, he's tested really well on one him up instead of doing what he normally could do and actually work toward improvement. Yeah.

And I think that Scottie's tested really well on one test. Like he took the Asvab and just happened to get all the right questions. Yeah. And they're like, all right, you're an engineer and he's like, oh, shit. Also, if the ship is so poorly or well in his mind designed, then why is your chief engineer working half of his time in the transporter room? You can't tell me it's a manpower issue.

There are over 400 people on that ship and there's almost always another technician in there to go, boop. Surely he's able as an administrator to put people on that shift. But no, he's the transporter chief most of the time. Meanwhile, he can't get the shit to do anything. So without a doubt, he is one of the most fun characters in Star Trek.

But on a ship that depends on fragile crystal instructors for faster than life travel, I want competence. And he has none. life travel, I want competence. And he has none. So he is guilty and confident. I'm not even a tracker. And I fucking hate you right now. Wow. Oh, are you prepared for what you're trying to your feed? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, I've had to go dark before. Because I'm not even, like I said, like I said, I'm like, I wasn't even like my main fandom

and I'm like, I'm best. Yeah. I can't really argue any of the points that you bring up, but man am I angry about it. God. That's why I usually make people angry is because I'm right. And I know I'm right. And I know that you know I'm right

Well take someone down or raise up raise up a whore So or pull down heaven Yeah, okay, so I'm now I'm gonna again Mm-hmm sympathy for a devil sure Lord's soft You get it. You're getting these names well dragon lance. Oh, haven't gotten there yet. Okay, all right or or no Don't think we've got there. Okay. No, you're in you're in the first book. So yeah, you haven't met him yet You Lord's soft by the way, mm-hmm is

within the history of D way. Mm-hmm is Within the history of D&D. Mm-hmm. And important character because he is the first named Death Knight Okay, now death knight of course is a specific undead Creature, okay, introduced in the fiend folio Which has its own interesting history. But the death knight is, and it essentially is a anti-paladin version of a lich.

There's the easiest way to describe it. They are the fallen souls, or the reanimated corpses of a fallen paladin. Okay. And so Lord Sof is this truly terrifying villain later on in the in the Dragon Lance trilogy, but you're still in the first book, right? Yeah, yeah.

Okay. We barely got across the first bit of war. Okay, so yeah, no, you you haven't you haven't met him yet. But he shows I want to say shows up in book two. And you learn his backstory. Okay, and he is he is mostly the dragon Mm-hmm in a in a trope sense. Okay, the dragon high lord KTR the commander of the blue dragon army is kind of the big bad to his sense. Okay. The Dragon Highlord Ketiarra, the commander of the Blue Dragon Army, is kind of the big bad to his dragon. Okay. And he is this terrifying presence who, you know, was looming and scary and even Tasselhoff says that he felt kind of funny

when he encountered Soth. Okay. And within the game, of course, because the novels are based on, you know, the canonical playing of the modules, right, a death knight has an aura of fear that it can inflict. Which like, and that strikes you to your core. Yeah, yeah. It's a parallel, I'm trying to remember what the effect was within the game

But it's essentially right you're you're paralyzed for around or two right by soft core by nice Nice not even mad So now the thing is of course within the setting of dragon lands sure Um, if you're gonna be a paladin mm-hmm in first edition AD&D in Dragon Lance, there weren't any paladins There were knights of salamnia. Okay. Soft was was a Knight of salamnia a fallen yeah right before the cataclysm. Oh, okay Because again undead so right right centuries old by the time of the events of the books. His backstory is he was one of the pinnacles of the Order of the Rose, the highest of the three orders of the

Knights of Slamnian, Knights of the Crown, Knights of the Sword, Knights of the Rose. And he is referred to as the Lord of the Black Rose, his epithet once he becomes a death night. And so he was the epitome of nightly chivalry. He was the guy that everybody in the nighthood wanted to be. Sure. He was born to incredible wealth. He was the exemplar. He was the exemplar and the night exemplar. Yeah, nice Again still, obviously this evening not even Matt, but His his circumstances were of course being as he was Essentially a Duke. Yeah, a very very powerful nobleman in addition to one of the commanders in this nightly order. As a nobleman, he was betrothed in a political marriage. Okay. Sure. And he fell and the short of his story is he was sent out as the cataclysm was about

to happen. Yeah. Now, I don't want to spoil too much. I don't know how much they've gotten into exactly how the cataclysm happened. Yes. Barely anything. Well, they flesh it out in other series. Sure, sure.

In Dragonlands, basically the King Priest Vistar as the Pope, essentially, of the gods of good. Okay. Prior to the cataclysm, essentially became so powerful that he called on the gods. He made evil illegal. Okay, and essentially. And then he called on the gods because he was such a powerful. He was, you know, 25th 30th something level cleric in game terms. He called upon the gods to remove evil from the world. I read comic books that doesn't go well. Never goes never goes well. So he

essentially created the cataclysm right and you know the fiery mountain fell out of heaven. Sure. But I meant well. Let's see this tar yeah. Well soft. Mm-hmm. Was sent out on a mission. So he's responsible for the Warren Beatty and Dennis Hopper. No, Dustin Hoffman movie. Ishtar. That's his fault. We can blame him for that too. Yeah.

Because somebody has to take the fault. And he made a battlefield of their earth. So I can lay that. Yeah, we can, yeah, totally we can blame for that. Yeah. So did his armor sparkle was, can we pin glitter on him as well? No. Okay. Was he chubby at all? Can we pin jiggly on him? Ooh. Might be pronounced jeely. I don't know. It's jeely. Okay. And now I'm kind of pissed. Like, good day, sir. So, but by this time, the Knights of Salamia had become

essentially the military arm of the King Priest's army. Okay. Or of the church. And so, Soth got sent out on a mission prior to the cataclysm happening. It kind of fixed what's going on. It kind of fix what's going on. It kind of fix what's going on. And there's kind of it's intimated that if he hadn't failed morally in this clutch moment, there might have somehow

been a chance that the that the cataclysm might have been avoided. But it's not ever it's not ever explicitly stated that like his failure was one of the critical moments to it happening, but it's like hinted at. But he wasn't up to the task. He didn't meet the challenge because he got sent out on this mission and partway through it, he found out that his secret affair and the half-elven love child he'd had with his other woman were going to become public knowledge and when it did because he had committed adultery and

violated the measure, have you heard much about the oath of measure? So, Sturm, you have met, spends an awful lot of time worrying about the oath and the measure. Okay. The oath, Eszalara S. Al-Maitz, my honor is my life. That is the core thing of what it is to be in the United of Selamia. The measure is all of the rules that the Knights wrote over centuries in order to say this is how you live according to the oath. Okay, yeah, yeah.

And one of the things, kind of like the Jedi got ossified and lost sight of what they were supposed to be doing. Sure. Part of the story of the Knights of Selamina is they lost sight of the oath and started paying too much attention to the measure. They thought they were the cure and they didn't meet up to what they needed to do.

Yeah, that's what happens with Selamina. Cured meat. Ah! Okay, that's what happens with salami cured meat Okay, that hurts so in any event by the time of the cataclysm Mm-hmm the measure was way more important than than the oath Pharisees essentially yeah I was gonna say in metaces said you see okay. I've had it pointed out to me by Jewish acquaintance that the Pharisees, theologically or actually the ancestors of modern-day Judaism, and the ones we should be as non-Jews looking at

as when we say Pharisees what we mean spiritually is more sadacies than fairacies. Well, okay, okay. I just, the legalism of the Pharisees, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. And so the Sadducees, their thing was they didn't believe in bodily resurrection, so they were sad, you see. Nice. So anyway, he knew that because he had violated the measure in that way, he was gonna get kicked out of the knighthood. His lands were gonna get taken away from him. His whole, you know, like everything was gonna be destroyed.

Sure. And so he turned around. This is the second character. Yeah, he turned around and he headed home. Uh-huh. And in a Essentially what what I believe was a Kind of murder suicide thing because he was in a position where he realized

There's no getting out of this. No getting out of this. He Killed killed his wife Killed his lover. Oh And then the cataclysm happened, and killed him. So he's got two really fucked up stains on his soul. Yeah. So his soul was so badly damned that he came back as a death night. Now this doesn't make him a hero. Right.

But it also makes him kind of more of a tragic figure. Okay. Because again, based on the circumstances he was surrounded by, there was no way, there was no getting out of the situation. And in his culture, he He was yeah, I understand yeah like like Oh, we are gonna talk about the pre-production meeting. Okay. Yeah Corrier ainess No the Shakespeare play. Oh, yeah, yeah, that one's not

About a pound of flesh Talk about a pound of flesh. It's just... Oh, dear. So, but, you know, he, he, like, like a Roman in similar circumstances. Yeah. Like, suicide is the only way out of this. Sure. You know, it's the murder part that I am taking issue with. The murder part says the guy who brushed that aside on Anakin.

Yes. come on. Hypocrite much like I'm not saying those things didn't exist. I'm just saying what pushed him over. Yes. Okay, and what I'm saying here is, you know, his child as a half-elf prior to the cataclysm, and after it ever would have been an outcast, would have been terrible. Yeah, terrible. I you know, whatever You know, the villagers would have probably burned his Elvis wife, you know, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

You know, he the the sun could have only like worked on a beach or something like far away from people, you know Yeah, well cuz David Tasselhoff No Kendrick Okay, yeah, yeah,elhoff. No, Kender. Okay, yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right. Sorry, return to Kender. Yeah, okay. So, so in any event, Sure.

Lord, Lord, Soth is portrayed in the books as this terrifying medicine. Oh my God, you know, demonic kind of figure. And he is. Yeah, they're not wrong, but, but, not without figure. And he is. Yeah, they're not wrong, but, but, not without cause. Not without cause. Okay. And when you look at his story in its own context,

it might be a stretch to say he's a tragic figure, but he becomes more an object lesson in the price of obsession Because there's an element of jealousy to hell Part of part of his his what he found out. There's there's kind of a fellow yeah, because he yeah heard that you know His his lover was cheating on him right might have been part of what was going on. So in any event. Yeah, okay. That's my, my, my not really defense, but my explanation.

Sure. Explication. There you go. You know, soft. All right. Well, we've got time for one more. So if you don't mind, I'll take the stage on this one Which means this will be an ongoing every once in a while episode because I have several

That's that you had a big one list. Yeah, I also true But that I haven't even gotten to tonight But let's see do do you want a cartoon or a live-action movie character? Let's go with a cartoon. Okay. All right. Because we've done several live-action. That's true. Let's hit an animated one.

Okay. So can you name me the most productive and ambitious advisor to an emperor? Most productive and ambitious advisor to an emperor. To an emperor. Starscream? No, he didn't. He's a magnetron. No, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, No, I get that, but he in what way was Starscream productive. And vicious. Well, I subductive and ambitious. You got that both. Oh, never mind. Yeah. How about I don't know. Let's see if you can. Hey, Eesma. Ah, okay. Eesma. Okay. You cannot name anyone more productive and ambitious. That combination could have taken that empire places. She's it, dude. She sees Kuzko for the self-absorbed and deleterious to his own people,

brat that he is. If you look in the very beginning, Kuzko is seen having a man bodily hurled out of the top of a very tall palace, simply because he was in the way during a small bit of a dance that he was dancing mostly for himself. Yeah. He did that.

That's capriciousness on a level. That's the wackest bonkers. Yes. Crazy. Yes. Kusko also claimed imminent domain where it wasn't needed to apply. I mean, he was going to completely, he wanted Pocch's land, a peasant, simply because it would work for a summer, spoiling himself pool property.

And there was a hill right next to it that was just as valid that nobody lived on. We know because at the end of the movie movie he decided to use that. So he was really ready to displace people like I don't know the person who built Dodger Stadium in LA. Okay. Kusko is also an incompetent at best leader. At worst he's malicious and capricious as well as thoroughly inexperienced. Okay. Further, Esma is old as hell and scary beyond all reason. And she, she inspires loyalty though. Despite this, she inspires loyalty in those who work for her witness, Krunk, who could have.

She's scary as hell. Well, he's not ever afraid of her. That's a good point. He is thoroughly loyal to her. That's true. Yeah. I think that maybe says more about Crunk than about Isma. You know, he could have his...

I am too. But I would say that he could do whatever he want. He could write his own ticket. He is a very handsome fellow. He is a very well-apportioned fellow. And he's clearly very capable at most things. He could cook. He can scout, he can carry shit, he can be a porter, he can do all kinds, he can sneak,

he can come up with his own theme music while he sneaks. Like all these things. And yet she is compelling enough as a leader for him to be loyal to her. It's also true that she advised Kusko since forever and his family, it's heavily implied that she advised his family forever. And by extension, on some levels, she helped raise him. And when Kusko fires her without cause with no explanation as to who would take her place and continue

to advise him. So she wasn't even going to train her replacement. She decided, okay, it is time to take matters into our own hands. He's clearly not a competent leader for our people. I need to remove him quickly and take over because this is going off the rails. It's not about her wanting to rule just out of spite. She clearly sees that he's turned into a poor ruler and for the sake of everyone, even peasants like Pacha, she's clearly going to be the better ruler.

Now you're staring at me as scantz. Are we really sure her motives are anything like that, Pure? Well, I would say this. She doesn't want, well, she's merciful and practical when it comes to killing him. Okay. She wants fast-acting poison. She does, at one point, let her anger get a hold of her,

but then Cronk says, you could just save on the postage and squash him, she's like, never mind, let's just poison him, call it good. And the poison would have worked if it wasn't watered down with plant water, and it's like, never mind, let's just poison them, call it good. And the poison would have worked if it wasn't watered down with plant water, and it would have been painless. And she certainly had the option of turning him into a flea and then crushing him, for instance.

But instead, she issued that in favor of leaving his corpse intact, which would allow the people to mourn his passing, participate in a meaningful ceremony, and then move on. And she had big plans for her takeover too. So this isn't Caprice, this is improvement. And she was quick on it too. Well, he ain't getting any debtor, and then let's go.

You know, yes, we've had our moment, we've got an empire to run. Here we go. When she realizes he isn't dead, she also recognizes the instability that this would cause and represent to the empire. And so she seeks to finish the job. She takes no joy in this, by the way. You can't say that she doesn't follow through. Okay. Her failure is notwithstanding. Okay. She tried to take over during a very unstable executive leadership. She invoked the 25th Amendment and did her goddamn job. And your interpretation of this is not in any way been colored by the last five years of our life in this republic.

I'm not going to say that it hasn't been accelerated. Um, but I think my point still stands. Yeah, she is much more capable leader than he is. And yeah, you have to kill him. Yeah, true. Mm-hmm. Can't say that last five years haven't had the effect. But she does have to kill him. That's true. Okay. But I mean, honestly, what's the lifespan of most emperors and most empires anyway? Okay, we mean yeah, we're taking mean, yeah, I mean, there are gonna be a very few

whom we know and study because they're the exceptional ones. Yeah. Ramsey's, Uthman, very few whom we know and study because they're the exceptional ones. Yeah. Ramsey's, Uthman, Augustus. Augustus. No, what's his name? Not Nerva, the guy came after him. Trajan. Trajan.

Oh yeah. You know, and you can name, you know, Tokugawa. Yeah. You know, Meiji. Meiji, well, yeah, we talked about Meiji because he was the first one to become a figurehead. Right. So, I mean, but also he helped transition to the modern era. And his line is still alive. So, it rose a belt, and honestly. Yeah, fair. So anyway, that's my argument for why she's in fact a hero. Okay.

Yeah, she's a tragic hero. She even, I mean, she puts herself in physical risk. She gets beaten like a pinata at one point. And then when she gets turned into a cat, she still stays around as a cat. That's true. Like, she still stays around. As a cat. That's true. Like she still does the job. Yeah. So, yeah.

All right. Fair enough. So that's it for this episode. We will revisit this because there are others who deserve another look. Do you have any on your list that you want to give people a peek behind the curtain on, or do you want to let it test her?

Right now, I do want to bring up the God Emperor of humanity from Warhammer 40,000 is a dickbag. Okay. Terrible father. Okay. Terrible father. And yeah, just not nearly the super decision maker, hypercompetent dude that, you know, his fanboys would have you believe.

And in the moments I have before the inquisition find me and put a bolt through my brain, I'm also going to sadly have to admit that Lehman Russ is not the heroic good guy figure that me and a lot of his other fanboys would like to characterize him as being. Okay, that's fair. God, that hurt to say. So painful. Any of my 40k friends who've listened to me rant about this knows that that was a huge thing for me to say, but like who else do you have that you might want to get us a taste of? A little preview. I've not touched marvel yet. There's a couple characters in marvel. I will just leave it at that. I will say Brigadier General Francis X Hummel will be examined. Okay.

Admiral Ozzel. The architect, Iceman, Jack Shepherd, Rick Grimes, Jenny. Okay. Yeah. Like I said, there's a couple from Marvel. Also might do a bit of a look into read Richards. Also from Marvel, obviously. Yeah. Okay. And then I'm interested which way that's going to be true, we've said a lot of stuff for the Reed Ridge or Cooperative. Yeah, oh, he's a fucking villain. Okay.

All right, sure. And then also the bad guy from the Incredibles. Okay, oh, Syndrome. Yeah, okay. So I think he's much more of a democratizing revolutionary than people give him credit for. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. So, but in the meantime, what's your reading? Well, I'm not actually reading it yet, but it is on my need to find it list. And now I have to find it. Well, while you're doing that, I'm reading Tribe by Sebastian Younger. It's about soldiers when they return. And what they face. It's been recommended to me like a number of times when studying traumas of people.

And I'm starting in on that. So yeah, it's really good so far, harrowing. He's written a few other things that have been really good. Sebastian Younger is a really good author. Okay. Does it fairly short books too, but he does a really good job of it. Okay.

Very cool. What you got. All right, so I found it. What I am very, very interested in picking up and having a read of is the dawn of everything, a new history of humanity by David Graber, and now I'm going to pop up by David Graber and David Wengro. And we have forever portrayed our earliest ancestors as being very primitive in childlike

Depending on your political Aspirations and how you want to try to use them. We say they're either free and equal innocence or that they were you know nature red and tooth and claw you know violent and thuggish and When grow and graber Talk about the historiography of how those theories emerged and then they look at the archeological record and the very earliest historical record

to point out places where no, no, we made choices. Humanity made decisions that led to agricultural societies being higher-age. You know, and so it is a deconstruction and a reframing of how the world got the way it is. And so I'm really interested in seeing what it is that they have to say in that argument. Because of course right now that I'm really interested in seeing what it is that they have to say in that argument. Because of course, right now that I'm teaching sixth grade curriculum at the very beginning of the year, the agricultural revolution is part of what we're teaching. And that is, you know, I mean, the historiography we're teaching of it is straight out of the 19th century that, you know, we are ancestors settled to get

a more reliable food supply, more stable kind of situation. And so naturally because you have more people, you need to have bureaucracy, you need to have leadership, you need to have government, you need to have government and you have this that. The other thing and essentially, Graber and Wenger are saying, no, we chose to do it that way. We have an alternate set of bits of evidence if we want to look at, you know, native cultures who were agricultural and didn't do that the same way. And then they look at the way 19th century thinkers looked at those cultures. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I'm really looking forward to it. I like it. Cool. Well, where can people find you on the social medias? I can be found on the socials medias as a EH Blalock on Twitter and Instagram. And I can be found at Mr. Blalock on the Tiki Talk.

How about you? You can find me on Insta and Twitter at duh harmony, two H's in the middle, and you can find me on the first Tuesday of every month doing capital puns, capital punishment on twitch.tv-sash-capital-puns. And more importantly, by the time this puns, capital punishment on Twitch.tv forward slash capital puns. And more importantly, by the time this airs, I think you'll have time to go out and get yourself a ticket because capital punishment is coming back live on January 14th to Luna's.

You have to be vaccinated. You have to show proof of vaccination. $10 a ticket. Come on down. Shout stuff out, help us spin that wheel. It has been damn near two years. So. Very cool. Yes. So, anyway, I'm stoked, I'm excited.

Where can they find this podcast and us collectively? Collectively, the two of us can be shouted at if you want to come at Damien about his slander against Montgomery Scott. You can find us at Geek History Time on Twitter and we can be found at agheakhistoryoftime.com and also the website, not the website, the podcast, of course, can be found on the Apple podcast app, Twitter and Spotify. And when you find us there, please hit the subscribe button and please give us the five star review that you know we've earned.

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