A Geek History of Time - Episode 141 - Cleansing TV By Banning Soap Part II

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

Wow, you're gonna like this. Oh, no, I'm not because there is no god damn middle. This is not unlike ancient Rome by the way Not so much the family circus Yeah I want to create self-sustaining farms and you got into crystals. I know. Okay. I understand that and you got into Crystal City. I know! Okay, I understand that. But yeah, I'm reading Livy, who is a shitty historian. Because Irrigan is.

Others say that because Laurentia's body was common to all the shepherds around, she was called a she-wolf, which is a Latin term for horror. You were audible, lassies. It was just most of it was you slamming the table. As the Romanists at the table, well, duh. Yeah. Obviously, it's so fucked up. Right. You know, it's your original form.

It's a fuck of a lot. You have a sword rat. 1.0-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1- This is a geek history of time where we connect nursery to the new world. I'm Damien Harmony having gotten a lot of practice since Ed Laylock has not been here. He bought a house, he gets to take the time off to make it livable. But I have gotten better at giving his introduction. I am a Latin teacher and a drama teacher up here in Northern California. I have spent the better part of this year

trying to teach kids drama while wearing masks and who didn't sign up for the class. So I spent my break recuperating, not exercising enough and drinking way too much milk. That's my story. With me yet again is our special guest, Amanda Lanham. Amanda, who are you? Tell us what you're doing.

Well, I am a former academic and yoga instructor, current yoga instructor, former academic, um, who has spent most of this past week, um, hanging with family, really, just getting prepared for Christmas, my nieces or home from college, because I have nieces that are in college, which is, you know, just in case you didn't think you were old. Yeah, yeah, definitely old. Actually, that was before we were recording this podcast, I went over to my sister's house and I was telling her that that's what I was doing, that I was going to go be on your podcast and that after she remembered soap Show and she's like oh, yeah, I love that show and I'm like yeah, so my friend was really excited when he found out that I used to watch it Because he had this podcast coming up and and like you know because obviously he was having trouble finding I think people that were big fans of it because and I kind of like trailed off just like because you're old like Yeah, that's it. Yes. Yes.

Thank you, sister. So, well, cool. Well, shout out to your sister. Hope she enjoys these episodes. I assume that, you know, she'll listen to what her baby sister does. Maybe she thinks I'm a big dork. So, you know, I don't see why that would stop anybody from.

Judgy bitch. Oh, okay. that would stop anybody from Judgy bitch. Oh, okay cool. Well sister Juddy bitch. Glad you're listening. Yeah. Yeah. If she watches she's performed a miracle This is only an auto medium, but I'm looking at you right now. It's visual for me. This is true. This is true and my deepest condolences Actually, let me try covering the camera and seeing what that does. Oh, cool. Now I just have a geek history of time logo. Damn, right. And then I'm back.

All right. So last, when last we spoke, when we spake, we just got into the soap memo, and we got into the efforts to essentially remove it from the air before it aired. Those efforts were ultimately a failure, but they did bring a lot of social, economic, and moral pressure to bear, which is kind of the thesis of what I was going to talk about in general. And as per my usual context, context, history, history, history,

thesis comes in the second episode. So there's a reason I don't write TV. So soap does finally premiere in 1977. But when it does, it is preceded by a disclaimer that viewer discretion was advised. This disclaimer would be read by Rod Roddy, the voice that you hear at the beginning of every single episode. Okay. The one that does the. This is the story of two sisters, Jessica Tade and Mary Campbell. That guy. For the entire first season, he would read the disclaimer. After that, people

seemed to know what they were getting into and so it was phased out. Okay. Now, critically, soap was largely appreciated. It still is ranked in the top 100 of TV shows ever. Yes. And fairly recently, like 2007, it was voted that. Mm-hmm. And I think there's a difference between critical and commercial success, ultimately.

For instance, there are a lot of things that are critical successes that have then gone on to become cult favorites that were not commercial successes. And we don't remember them as such. We don't remember them for the commercial failures that they were. For instance, best example I have is Buster Keaton's the general. He directed that.

He co-directed it in 1927. It was his magnum opus. It did not do well commercially. And it had a big budget for the time. It was like 1.5 million and it only made like 2.3 million. As a result, I believe as MGM, they basically put huge controls on him and the kinds of movies he could make. Because of how it did at the time, which makes sense, it's the studio system, that's how it goes. The kicker is, though, is that it's one of the most famous silent films of

all time. It's considered a classic. It is the one that you show if you're not going to do anything by Charlie Chaplin. It's and Chaplin and Keaton had very different aesthetics, very different approaches. But it is it is a vital piece of of cinema mastery quite honestly The missing send that he uses when he is chopping the wood going past the Union Army You know where the actions going to different directions. I mean just the the amount of choreography that the scenes took It's really quite well done critically didn't do much So like stuff like that.

And I'd say so kind of falls into that category. And it's definitely become a cult classic. Yeah. Well, it kind of reminds me of like in the more TV realm of like arrest a development that when it when that show aired. Yeah. It had three seasons on network TV. And it had like super critical acclaim and cults kind of following Mm-hmm, but just commercially they couldn't get their feet underneath them and then

Many year in the so this show gets canceled and then many years brought back on Netflix because There's so many more mediums now for people to yeah It's a democratized platform in a lot of ways. And now you don't have to capture match numbers to be considered successful. Right. Actually, it's interesting, because there's another TV show that had,

is it a portion of Delarassi? Is that a name? Yeah, there's another show that has her on it called Better Off Ted. Oh, I love that show. Me too. Also only three seasons. Yeah, there's another show that has her on it called better off Ted. Oh, I love that show me too. Also only three season. Yeah, totally. Jesus Ed and I should do an episode about shows that only lasted three seasons because I was also thinking Titus. Right around that time. Yeah. Well, interestingly, they're fine. find your footing or you don't. That's like your and the five year mark is the magic number for syndication rights. So for the artist to make what Jim Ross of the W formerly of the WWF, then WWE previously the WCW previously the

NWA previously been an ionic. The guy has been doing it for a long time. Now he's in AEW. Anyway, what Jim Ross has always said is he calls it a mailbox money. And so for artists to get that mailbox money, they got to get to syndication, which means you need to get to, I believe five seasons. I think you need to get over a hundred episodes. It gets paid in that syndication deal. That is it the writers at the producer, the, all of the above. I'll get a little... Yeah, they kind of get...

So, a syndication, as I understand it, and Geek Timers feel free to jump in and correct me. As I understand it, if you, Amanda, have sold me a show, and it gets to five seasons, there's often a clause in there about like, okay, when we syndicate it, it's going to be for this amount of money for this many years of syndication, for every year that, you know, and then you can renegotiate it because your name is still tied to it

or your image is still being used for it. And the result is you get X percentage of that syndication right. So as I recall, it's been a while since I've studied syndication rights of TV shows, you know. But you have studied syndication rights of TV shows at some point. I'm not going to deny that I did go down several rabbit holes. And remember, I do all of this without wine. So the go on. When you said that you would drink or you had had too much of something during the quarantine, I'm like, yeah, that's the wine. That's the wine for me. It was milk for me.

I really. I mean, just a slightly different way. So yours is probably healthier for you. Um, actually, they did. Especially if you're lactose intolerant. Yeah, that's true. That too. They did a thing in the 1940s where we rationed milk and cheese and the amount of heart attacks and health-related diseases went down.

We actually have the data. But we don't learn. No. I mean, cheese is really good. That's so good. It goes really well with wine. No, I mean, cheese is really good. That's so good. So it goes really well with wine. Right? I've heard.

Next time we hang out, you have the wine and the cheese, and I'll just have the cheese. And yeah. Yeah. I'm a fan. I have to be in the equitable exchange. Nope. Nope.

I remember teaching that in my economics classes. So. So yes. There in my economics classes. So. So yes, life lessons here. Exactly. So soap was largely appreciated critically. There was plenty of moral objections, many of which were unfounded or based on what they thought was true based on a newsweek thing. I can sympathize.

But for the most part, it was. And the thing that they've gotten worse since then. But for the most part, it was recognized for what it was. It was Clever. Clever. Ooh. And think of what I would be like with wine. Yeah, it was Clever.

And scathing. So it's clever and scathing of soap operas, which is what it set out to do. That's that's the fun part. I'm accomplished. Exactly. Exactly. So interestingly soap got a lot of preemptive hate from conservatives and liberals alike for its depiction of an openly gay character. Now from conservatives, it was the objection that homosexuality is a sin and therefore not fit for TV. However, from the international, no, from the international gay, sorry, the screen skipped. I have this on an iPad and like, if you touch it, it brings down like the heading.

From the international union of Gay Athletes. The fact that Billy's crystal's character, Jody Dallas, was in love with the quarterback for the NFL, who was himself still closeted, represented a nod to the idea that one should stay closeted. Which they've got a point, right? And at the same, it's kind of, I hesitate to make this argument,

but when people were criticizing gangster rap in late 80s, early 90s, because that's when they found out about it, it has existed at least since 85, I believe. But when they were criticizing gangster rap, they said, look, you are, you're glorifying shooting people and killing people and so on like that. You're singing about that and you're giving a voice. And I think that there is an argument, a nuanced argument that can be made

along those lines. However, you do need to listen to the response of no, we're telling you what's going on in our lives. Sure. Yeah. And I would fire back with yes, but you're making money off of this image that you were depicting. You get to, that's fine, but let's actually look at the effect as well. And we could certainly sit down and have that conversation. I think that one's just so complicated to you because for a lot of those kids, it feels like there's two ways out of their life and it's sports or it's rap. Right.

You know, yeah, it's, it's, I'm not saying that it's a cogent and slam down argument. I am saying though that I can see the well-meaning intention behind saying, whoa, hang on a second, you know. And same thing with this, I think that the the International Union of Gay Athletes does have a point that if you depict a gay, specifically gay man's relationship with another man and that other man is in the closet, you are in fact endorsing closeted lifestyles. I could also see the argument coming back of like, this is our fucking reality. I could also see the argument coming back of like this is our fucking reality. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's only been fairly recent that we've had an openly gay NFL player. Right.

And he still got a mountain of shit for sure. Yeah. I remember having that conversation with my father when I was a kid, and he's like, there's no gay football players, and I just laughed. So like just statistically, that's impossible. Right, right. Just because math, that's 44 guys on a team. There are, oh God, I forgot how many teams,

but four teams for division. So that's, yeah, over time. Like, like, there's been some gay football players. Yes, yes. Well, same thing with the openly gay basketball player at the tail end of his career, and he waited until the tail end of his career,

and the amount of people are like, you know, it's, I swear until there is going to be someone who is gay who is an athlete, who is a top tier athlete in one of the three main sports. It's got to become mainstreamed. Right. There's this weird thing because people will do all of the mental gymnastics they can to find reasons to object to their homosexuality without objecting to their homosexuality. They do the same thing with activism.

I don't want to equate these two things, but they do act the same. The rubber band response to both is similar. It's along the same vein. It's Colin Kaepernick. He doesn't have a job because he was a system quarterback and someone figured out his system. And if you really look at it that way and I'm like, okay, let's go look at stats right now and and I pulled up stats and I was like he's not the best but he's also not the worst he's literally in the middle.

And all these other guys got contracts ahead of him. So what the actual shit what could the difference be? You know, and but there's that all one thing, but it's also not not. Well, and I'm sorry, I think it is all one thing. I think his activism is what kept him black balls. Well, yeah, yeah, but but people who are willing to contort themselves into these arguments. You know, saying, oh, well, here's here's five reasons why it's not because of his activism. And it's like, no, no, you're carrying water for a plantation owner. And I don't know why you're doing that. So, but, okay, so the international union of gay athletes pointed out quite rightly, hey, you're depicting a character whose lover is in the closet. And that is kind of promoting

closeted lifestyles. Funny enough to the actor or the guy that plays Billy Crystal's football player boyfriend is an Olympic athlete. No kidding. Yeah, I learned this earlier today. Oh wow. He was like a I want to say it like marathon runner. I was gonna say it wasn't like a decaf wow. He was like a, I wanna say it like marathon runner. I was gonna say it wasn't like a de-cathlon. He was like a middle distance to long distance runner. Yeah. I didn't know he was in the Olympics for it. I just, I knew that he was.

He was. Yeah. So the National Gate Task Force, they said they objective preemptively as well, because they said having an openly gay character on TV being largely comedic is also its own problem. And Billy Crystal is point of this out too. He said I kind of felt dirty playing that character because I would hear people get laughing about shit that's not supposed to be funny and we were playing that for laughs. Yeah. And yeah, there's, you know, there's,

there's a lot of hate to be made there. I think that that is a much more in-depth talk, honestly. If you ever wanna get back into academia, this is where you go. Like I think that's a talk worthy of having. I don't feel particularly qualified enough to have it all the way out, but I do wanted to give voice that there were some legit objections from groups about a thing that they were concerned about. The problem that I have with it is that it was sight unseen.

And that's where I struggle quite a bit. And I don't think that their objections are unwarranted either. I think they're valid objections. But again, when you make an objection, you have to listen to the response. And when you make a response, you have to listen to the objection. I think that both things need to happen. Now, Jody Dallas is often credited as being the first openly gay character on TV. He was not, not on American TV, not in international TV.

There had actually been an openly gay character who was a regular character in Australia on a soap opera in 1972, five years earlier, called Number 96. That was the name of the the so Bob. In November of 72, an ABC TV movie called That Certain Summer aired featuring Hal Holbrook as a gay man living in the stable same gender couple. He was also the first gay parent played on network TV. Yeah, it is. Uh, and it's Martin Sheen, uh, that is his, his life partner. Uh, and Martin Sheen got asked if he'd thought that, uh, at the time, uh, that his portrayal of how Holbrook's life partner would hurt his career. Uh, he later said, well, I robbed banks and kidnapped children and raped women and murdered

people. And now he's going to play a gay guy. And that was like a career-ender. Now that's him saying it after, like many years after, and he's got gravitas at that point. But I really love that quote of, and it reminds me of that line from Laramie Project, where, you know, it's like,

you didn't mind when I played Hamlet but oh no you didn't mind when I played McBeth but you minded when I played this gay character adjuster moral compass accordingly. Now one could make the case that the character that Steve and the character Steve and all in the family, a friend of Archies, was the first gay character on network TV, could make that argument, but he's a single episode character. Same you could make that same argument in 1974 on mash, single character, single episode character again. So there's a couple, single episode characters. There's a character named Peter Panemoff from the

corner bar from ABC and he proceeded Jody Dallas by about five years. But actually he was called by Rich Wondell, the president of the gay activist alliance and early advocacy group at the time. He was called quote, the worst stereotype of a gay person I've ever seen. He was called quote, the worst stereotype of a gay person I've ever seen. So there are a lot of gay, not a lot. There were several gay characters that existed on TV prior to Jody Dallas. Threes Company was certainly setting an example that was a legitimate cause for concern for gay advocacy groups. Jack Tripper pretended to be gay and that was a crucial piece of the writing and the whole premise of the show. It's right there in the very first episode.

Because at the time, here's what's wild, you couldn't have a single man living with two single women in an apartment. And so the work around for that was Janice says, oh, I just told the ropers that Jack was gay. So now he has to pretend to be gay. And so that was used to commit effect all the time playing into all the gay stereotypes. Think of all the looks that Mr. and Mrs. Rooper would give to Jack. The way he'd have to play it up,

the fact that Jack had a cousin who, a cousin in scare quotes who was from Texas, who was a manly man. You know, that that whole episode, Mr. Furley and all of his reactions to Jack being gay. Now they never kicked him out of the apartment for $75 a month. But it was clear like he was playing gay, you know, and that was the humor of it. So as far as I think, just a little bit later too in the 80s with like bosom buddies. I was thinking the same. Yeah.

Where they transvestitism specifically. Yeah. Yeah. They dressed as women and kind of like had to live a second life as women so that they could get some kind of discount on housing because they probably lived in New York and that's what you do. Yeah, yeah, it was a fun thing that you mentioned about that. So back in the 80s, landlords had way fucking more power than they ever should have. And in the 80s, it was still kind of a holdover. For instance,

my mom could not get certain apartments because she was a single mom with a kid. Me. There was certain apartments. She just don't even bother to apply. You're not of our right. That was in San Francisco in the 80s. Right. So you had that. You had in the 80s, you again, you still had like unmarried families or unmarried couples couldn't live together. That was true up through the 90s, actually. I remember a friend of mine, they had to get a co-signer because she and her boyfriend

were living together. Really? In the 90s? Yeah, in the 90s, is it? I was with my boyfriend in the 90s. Yeah, this was in conquer. I mean, late 90s. Yeah, I've been like 98 Yeah, this is around the same time Now I think that there might have been a good financial argument. You could make a

Very young couple in their early 20s living together one of them they could easily break up one of them could leave and we don't want to get left You know having to go through an eviction process. So get a co-signer, you know, so I, okay, okay. I mean, there's a good argument to be said about getting an 18 year old to get a co-signer regardless of who they're living with. Yeah, and I think if you make, yeah, if you make that argument that way, but if they had both been males or if they had both been females, I don't know if that would have been an argument that would have been brought up.

I was also thinking in buzzing buddies. So you had that, you also have in the 80s and because this is, you know, the podcasts that I do all the time, pro wrestling. You had the character Adriana Donas in the mid 80s and into the late 80s. And he was a very fat, gross looking man. And he wore like these faded pink tights and he wore a mumu. And he had a little talk show called The Flower Shop and he was very, very, very, very effeminate and he pushed the homophobia button really hard. Of course he was villain. So you had, which is really kind of interesting because one of the head bookers of the WWF at the

time was Pat Patterson, whose gainess was the worst kept secret in wrestling, like everyone knew, and everyone pretended not to know, like it was this weird thing, and he's doing the booking, and yet this is the best they can get for, you know, this is what they do with gay characters. So just wild. So in the 70s. And really only fairly recent in our lifetime that homosexual characters on television has become normalized. Like, yeah, even back when

Will and Grace had their first go around, like that was novel. Yeah, it was. I mean, I remember when I was in junior college. I was out reading almost. Yeah, I remember I was in junior college. The Ellen show. Yeah, you know, when I had that that, it's interesting to see when like the ways in which popular

culture can influence society in that way because I feel like as soon as you had people who represented a kind of homosexuality that maybe you could be comfortable with, like it gives you these entry points. Yeah. And to, and to seeing, yeah. I mean, I think in some ways the, the people who were against having gay representation on TV were actually correct about what gay representation on TV did.

What it would do. It brought gay people into your living room every week. Yeah, but I'd like seeing like art drive society. Yes, society driving art. I do too unless it's pro wrestling, um, in which case it's, it's, oh, and there are a mountain of episodes that I've done about that. Uh, but it's, uh, but yeah, I, I mean, I find it fascinating that it's basically it is a normalizing impact.

You know, you had the same thing with racism too. I mean, Archie Bunker getting kissed by Sammy Davis, Jr. and Archie Bunker having to constantly be confronted as the racist that he is. Bill Cosby had some very valid objections to that because he's like Archie never grew, but you know at the same time, you know, Carol O'Connor absolutely was very glad to put that stuff on the air. You know, and Carol O'Connor was not Archie, you know. So I mean, yeah, having representation matters a whole hell of a lot and having normalized representation matters even more, which is what Jody was. Jody Jody Dallas was a positive fully formed recurring main storyline gay character. he was one of the first. Now an interesting side note though in in its fourth season the Jefferson's had an episode called Once a Friend. Now this would have

been October of 1977. Okay. The beginning of this show, right? It was an episode that dealt with an openly transgender character who refused to be defined as anything but her authentically expressed self. She is no longer Eddie, she is now Edie. Now the backstory is that I always want to say Thomas Jefferson. No, George Jefferson. He even did an episode where he like dressed up like Thomas Jefferson and claimed white heritage and stuff. It was pretty, it was fun and subversive. But George Jefferson was in the Navy and he, he and his friend Eddie were, you know, just pussy slayers when they were in the Navy and like his buddies in from town. Now, George is with Weezy now, so he's calmed down some, but it's going to throw back a couple of bruises, his buddy. We live their

old glory days verbally, not in actuality. And he goes expecting to meet Eddie. Eddie meets Eddie. And so you can imagine the farcical aspects of this, the you know mistake and identities, the this, the that, the other, the humor more really comes from, did I say we see, yeah we see, because her real name, her full name was Louise. Hence the we see, it comes from we see we see, thinking that George is having an affair with a woman and using the, I'm meeting an old friend from the Navy as an excuse. When in fact, the friend that he is meeting from the Navy is now a woman.

So that, you know, it's your standard sitcom, Three Levels of Ridiculous that frankly would take three minutes to explain. If we all just communicated with each other like this, the result real quick. But, so we need it to take 23 minutes. Exactly. And we need people to immediately jump to conclusions about life partners that they've known their entire lives. But it's interesting where they go with it.

And what I found interesting about it also is that you're talking about two black men, well, one black woman and one black man now, because it's eating not Eddie. And there's this, okay, but you'll still be Eddie to me kind of vibe that George is trying to put across and E.D. is like, no, this is who I am. And what I find fascinating there is this, there is an unwillingness to compromise on your declared identity when you have actually declared your identity. And what I find is interesting about that is that we saw roots on TV in the 1970s. And there's a scene where they're whipping him

and telling him to take his name and he keeps saying Quintakinte. And then he finally says Toby because I mean, it's a fucking weapon. It's torturous pain. Yeah. You're going to break eventually. And then he runs away several times, gets his foot cut off and all kinds of stuff. But like that refusal to identify as anything other than your authentic self,

specifically from a black character, I found that especially interesting because of the 1970s, it's you have the switching from colored to black and to Afro-American. And oh, you must have called me Roy because I know you didn't say boy. And like I refuse to take your identity that you're as writer. And there is, there is a newly emerging black identity that is. Yeah. And I think that having a transgender character, specifically a black transgender character, refusing to compromise on his identity, I find that fascinating. I don't think you would have seen that in a white character.

I think you would have seen a little bit more, I'm gonna use the word reconciliation between the two worlds in that character if she were white. And so I think there's a very specific vibe going on there. And you know, there's, you know, like what we did in our episodes about zombies, you know, George Romero accidentally started up a whole bunch of race issues. Well, he didn't start up a race issues.

He started a critique of race issues almost entirely by accident. He just casted the best actor that he thought could do the role, but the character who was the main character in neither living dead was black. And suddenly, everything has weight to it that it probably wouldn't have if he just casted, you know, a gauky redhead or something. You maybe wanna go back and watch the zombie or the zombie episode.

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, there's 10 of them, Dive-In. Fuck. I was broken after those. There's a reason I did a Wilhelm scream episode, which I still maintain as a good one. But so you have this comedy of errors happening in 1977 in October on the Jefferson's. Now it doesn't reach the friends level of gay and trans panic because man, I was watching

friends the first season and every other joke was key panic. Oh my God. I have that same experience too, because that show in so many ways has aged really well. Like the humor has really held up. Except. Yes. It's like a real big caveat there.

Like, and then it doesn't seem like it was that long ago, because it was in our lifetime. There's only 10 years ago, right? Yeah, that thing's... Perpetually only 10 years ago. It's always only 10 years ago, no matter what age I am. Yep, yep. Years ago.

But we really have a society come a very long way in a very short period of time and you get to kind of experience it when you re-watch those shows and you realize like how out of tone that is now. And you're like, oh thank God. Yeah, and I'm at least doing something better. Yeah, we're growing in some ways.

And again, I think that growth through art, through nightly television is a really important growth. Yeah. So yeah, so I mean, here you've got this character in the late 1970s, who is transgender, who seems to have had gender confirmation surgery, who refused to be defined other than her own identity, and she didn't compromise.

And I just, I think that's really interesting that that comes out. Soap is getting all the fire. But that comes out in the same year that soap gets started. So yeah, soap was definitely groundbreaking in the 1970s and its inclusion of a fully formed not played for gay panic laughs, gay main character of a TV series. And culturally, it makes a lot of sense at the time, given the burgeoning inclusion of queer characters, queer issues, queer tropes in the 1970s. However, it also makes sense,

given the backlash, the queer community was seeing prior to Reagan getting into office. Now, once Reagan gets into office, it's a goddamn, unmitigated disaster. This is what happens when you put somebody who frankly is known for image management more than he's known for governance. Like, I mean, thank God we learned from that.

We never did it again. But could you imagine if we'd done something that what kind of a religious human rights? Right. What kind of human rights violations we would have or like, you know, think if there was like another plague that happened, you know, and they did nothing about it.

And so you have an entire vulnerable population and then you might have made it and made it seem like it was a xenophobic kind of issue. Yeah, I mean, thank God we didn't do that. Narrowly escaped. Exactly. Oh, man, those emails must have been really bad. So there were several people who were chomping at the bit to make sure that queer equality and queer representation was not allowed on the air. By 1977, not just on the air everywhere, by 1977, a bevy of the same people who would make up the moral majority a few years later, and bring in an actor into

office to defeat a deacon in a Southern Baptist congregation incumbent president were lining up to oppose all the things that were gay. Jesse Helms, Jerry Falwell, Anita Bryant, all of them jumped in. By 1977, nearly 40 major cities had ordinances on the books to stop harassing gay folks. That's fucking progress. Anita Bryant had a friend who was married to her Anita's a talent agent named Ruth Shack. Ruth Shack was the Metro Dade County Commissioner. She proposed a similar ordinance in Miami-Dade County. It was suggested in December of 76 and her husband's client, her husband's client Anita Bryant, a former Miss America, a current pop singer and endorser of oranges, an endorser of Tupperware and an endorser of Coca-Cola

took issue with an ordinance in a city that she didn't live in that her talent agents wife was endorsing. Now spun up by her church, Anita Bryant began in earnest trying to undo what she saw her friend doing, giving gay folks protection from discrimination. Anita Bryant claimed as it was coming to a city council vote that quote, the ordinance condoned immorality

and discriminates against my children's rights to grow up in a healthy, decent community. The ordinance passed. And this became the lightning rod that led to Reagan's staunch support from a large swath of Americans. This moment, I think, created what I think was on many levels, a grift. On many other levels, there were severely sincere folks who thought that that Gays having protection from persecution would lead to the ruination of America and anger, really, really anger white Jesus to the point where he might not rapture them. But ultimately, this really does feel like a very standard grift to me. Anita Bryant helped to start the organization called Save Our Children.

And like most grips, it's stupid. Because as soon as they started to save our children, they got sued by saved the children in June of 1977. Because saved the children was a charitable group in Connecticut that lost donation money as due to Anita Bryant's use of the same name in her book that she published that year. As well as this organization's attack on people. So yeah, Anita Bryant definitely made sure that she was going to write a book that year

too. And I'm not going to name it here because fuck her. But rest assured, the previously innocuous ordinance that was finally reversing some of the injustices done against a marginalized community became the lightning rod for those who had centered themselves and their virtues in the public square. The second that anyone gets less oppressed than they had been during these people's formative years. Just like you said, you know, we grew up with friends. We grew up with, we grew up with, we grew up in the 80s too. So we grew up with, you know, a lot of

80s TV shows as well. Twilight Zone, you and I were both made weird by that. So, but that sets our idea normal. Full of formed humans that we are. Exactly. But that sets our idea normal. So if your idea of normal is the gay is getting oppressed, then man, that's rough to have to see them not get as oppressed, I guess.

And this isn't even an issue of like equality feels like a compression when you're privileged type stuff. No, this is, we used to codify there are apartheid status. Those were the good old days. Like, so the Save Our Children campaign paid for local commercial spots during the Orange Bull parade. Now, the Orange Bull is the second oldest bull game in the United States. Anita Bryant was the host that year. What's that? It just curious is the Rose Bowl the oldest? Yes. Yeah. It goes rose orange and then I think sugar and cotton are pretty close which can we just point out that all these bowl games are happening

on fields that are owned by white people where black people do a majority of the physical labor. And they're named after the same thing for which black people were kidnapped and brought over to the United States and the same locations made to work in fields for the benefit of. So you think it's problematic. A little bit, a little bit. Yeah. That's why I was cool when they changed it

to like the festival and the nacho bowl. That's our branding. Yeah, I'm like, okay, good. Good. Let's not be okay with it being that obvious, although then it's more insidious. But okay, so on January 1st, Anita Bryant, on January 1st, 1977,ap doesn't air until September.

January 1, 1977, a Neadebrien is hosting the Orange Bowl parade, and on that same day, her book comes out. So all of this is even predating the March pre-release of soap, right? And there were commercials that were bought during the parade. Now, 1977 is only a few years removed from Heidi preempting the Super Bowl on TV. So, you know, sports is still kind of like, oh, yeah, that's also on kind of thing.

It's not the national religion just yet. Now, those commercials showed this, I want to say it was in the 1980s. religion. I want to say it was in the 1980s. So I know that it really got stepped up when the Niners were winning. So 89 was a really big one. I got stepped up in my life. I just wasn't sure if that was like everybody's life. Yeah, well, and I don't know because I mean, I was huge Niners fanliving in Florida. So, but yeah, and so all of this, like I said, predates. So, so the commercials, they show the SF Pride Parades

most outlandish displays, the leather daddies, the drag queens, the men kissing, the topless women. And then it accused Miami Queer Folk of trying to turn Miami into San Francisco, a veritable quote, hotbed of homosexuality. Sounds like fun. They also ran a full page. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It is Miami. They also ran a full page ad in the Miami Herald, swearing up and down that Gays would lead

to child prostitution, teachers and students having sex, the G gaze being in the boy scouts and the girl scouts. Oh, no Either they knew that that was already going on and they were trying to capitalize on the panic of the people who didn't Weird thing to like Yeah, yeah Or they were just to our children right Well, and they even made the argument that you know Gay people don't have kids because they're gay so they have to teach other people to gay get to our children. Right. Well, and they even made the argument that, you know, gay people don't have kids because they're gay, so they have to teach other people to gay. That's

like, that's how they procreate. Right. Like basically like OSIRIS, you know? Yes. So sprinkle a little bit of a mirror. Yeah. you know, it's not getting to what a tomb had to do. So it's another tab on my browser. But at the bottom was the tagline quote, are all homosexuals nice? There is no human right to corrupt our children. That was run in a fucking newspaper. And centered in this fight is Grifter extraordinaire Anita Bryant. I'm gonna call her a grifter. I think she

is a true grifter. I think she believed her own bullshit, but I think ultimately it was a grift. And the shit that she said was the reddest of red meat to the Florida and national grifters using righteous indignation as part of their grift. Here's some quotes from her. Quote, what these people really want hidden behind obscure legal phrases is the legal right to propose to our children that theirs is an acceptable, alternate way of life. I will lead such a crusade to stop it as this country has not seen before. Now, in all fairness, she is partly right. Other grifters had come and gone, but her efforts definitely stuck and

led to all sorts of legislative restrictions. She had the stain power. As she did, I like that that sound like stain power as well, because she is a fucking stain on Florida. I mean, Jesus. The bar is so so. So low. And it's like Florida just completely misses the irony of the fact that their state is shaped like a penis too. Like they just, God damn it. It would be like if Michigan went off on like corporal punishment. It looks like a hand. But anyway, Florida then banned gay adoption that same year based largely on arguments

that she made imagining panic into existence about child molestation. She said, quote, as a mother, I know that homosexuals cannot biologically reproduce children. Therefore, they must recruit our children. I hope to hell that she didn't have any gay children, because that would have been awful for them. Like, oh my God.

Yeah. Yeah. And that brought up the adoption ban, and it came into being as a fucking result There's a pretty straight line to draw here too. She had a book to sell a moral outrage to gin up about people being less targeted And the public grew to meet that call Quote if the gays are granted rights next we'll have to give rights to prostitutes and the people who sleep with St. Bernard's and to nail by Yes, yes, you have to give human rights to prostitutes and to people who sleep with St. Bernard's and to nail biders. Yes, yes. You have to give human rights to all the humans.

Right. But then she goes, and then she does this weird like, step one, step what? Like, she, like, But that's always, it's always, there's always slippery slope kind of argument and that kind of thing.

Straight to B.C.ality. Yeah. Right. But okay, so I've seen that before, right? But then to scoop out of B.C and go and also nail-biteers She's casting a really wide net Just remember Damien you can't logic with crazy. This is true. This is true And apparently crazy doesn't go in ascending order either or she genuinely thinks that nail biting is far worse than fucking a St. Bernard Or in fairness getting fucked by a St. Bernard

I wonder if it's breed specific. I hope so I Hope that there's like, where's the St. Bernard versus the Chihuahua in this. I was thinking doxin, you know, but there already looks like a fleshlight. So yeah, let's just call it what it is. Yeah. Badger dog. You know, so do you, this is the same boiler plate shit through this night through 1977 from her and her her supporters Um, now come back to soap and let's recall that internal memo together in order to treat Jody as a gay character His portrayal must at all times be handled without limbristed actions The relationship between Jody and the football player should be handled in such a manner that explicitly or in that explicit or intimate aspects of homosexuality are avoided entirely.

There was a lot of social capital spent on keeping gay representation off of TV, and it definitely led to an effort within the network to do so. Luckily for us, soap largely ignored those suggestions as often happens when network sensors. Now, here's a fun fact about Grifter Anita Bryant. In 1980, she softens her stance.

It might have been the pie in the face in October of 1977. Have you seen a video of her getting pied in the face? No, I have not. She's one of the first people to be politically pied. And I love it. Beautiful. Although, and, and she has a quip. Now, it is a hom and she has a quip.

Now it is a homophobic fucked up quip, but it's not unclever either. She does say, well, of course it was a fruit pie. Oh, points, I need points. All right. I can't say it's not funny. Right, you know, it shouldn't be, but. I'm being recorded, and I was laughed out loud. I couldn't say it's not funny. Right. You know, it shouldn't be. But I'm being recorded and I was laughed out loud. I couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, she's still an asshole.

Um, it might have also been that her marriage was abusive and she was castigated by the same apples are frequently funny though. So that's true. That's very true. Uh, so, so it could have been the pie three years later in 80. She softens her, her stance. Or it could have been the pie three years later in 80, she softens her stance, or it could have been the fact that her marriage was actually pretty awful and abusive and she was castigated by the same institution as whom she courted seeking, she courted because she sought a divorce. She said in 1980, and fucking conservatives, until it applies to them, they can't see through and fucking conservatives, until it applies to them, they can't see through to like another person. And I do mean conservatives.

And the empathy is not part of the platform. No, no. And you know what, I would actually, this is where Ed would go on for a little bit and rightly so, that conservatives actually are pretty chill about what you do in your own bedroom, long as it's too consenting adults. It's people who put on the cloak of conservatism

for their own grift. And I'll go with that. But she says, quote, I'm more inclined to say, live and let live about gay people. See, progress. And then she says, just don't flaut it or try to legalize it.

Oh. Okay. So. And then she says, just don't flaut it or try to legalize it. Oh, okay. So, you're so hopeful. So, so, uh, kept scrolling. After all, in 1977, she took her stance, quote, not out of homophobia, but out of love for them. But sometimes I think about like, what would it be like if this person was alive now and had a Twitter account? I think we see that with JK Rowling. Yeah. You know, it's yeah. checks. Yep. Now she did get protection in West Virginia. in Virginia because Gays and West Virginia were coming for really hard.

But she got protection from a little group you might, might recognize as the KKK. So she got new fans, I guess. Anyway, so the Bryant campaign successes nationwide and the effort to repeal legal protections against discrimination against gay folk are startling and really prophetic, actually, because active voters who wanted to hurt a marginalized group turned out in droves. They were energized by a charismatic figurehead. The liberal majority, and it is a majority, who didn't think such discrimination should exist ultimately didn't get out to vote because they didn't care enough. Polls after the fact in Eugene, Oregon, for instance, really highlight this failure of liberals to protect a marginalized group because their own apathy

stood stronger in the face of oppressive exuberance than their willingness to actually take care of the groups that need protection. Basically, they didn't apply to them so they didn't show up. So here I am, you know, dissing conservatives or faux conservatives for like, well, if it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't matter. Liberals were just as bad at this. There's a, uh, probably lots of people are aware of Brunei Brown, an author who, uh, she's a researcher who focuses on shame and vulnerability. But she, in one of her books talks about how it's one thing to have values. It's another thing to live in your values. You can profess your values or you can enact them day to day.

And that just reminds me of that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's, there's, there's your liberal values, but not showing up in them, not showing up to. Yeah, I mean, it's it's performative. Yeah, it's the it's the people who, you know, they take up insta picture or they'll they'll post a black screen once and see I did something and it's like, did you even shop at a black phone business? Like, you know, one of my favorite pictures is there's these gals. And I have to I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did.

I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did.

I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did.

I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. of like some sort of center divider kind of thing. And they're posing and taking a picture of themselves. And standing below them on the street level is a black woman with a sign and it's something like white women put Trump in power. Or something like that, I forget exactly what's on the sign, but what I found, yeah, I know. But what I found so striking about the picture

was the fact that these white women Yeah, I know. But what I found so striking about the picture was the fact that these white women had to have elevated themselves to stand up there. And they're taking a picture, whereas this black woman is there on the ground, and she's actually actively participating, not just in... Right for symbolism. Yes.

It's a fun one. So remember, Brian's book and efforts in Miami stepped into the spotlight in January 77. The prescreening is not going to happen until March and conservatives ignored the actual facts of the show and pushed hard to get it banned from TV before it ever made the air. These two things I think are intrinsically linked and the show's success gave another occultural touchstone for the campaigns of what would later become the moral majority to point to and strengthen their base. So I'm going to talk a little bit of

the moral majority. Are you aware of this group? Oh yeah. Okay. So Jerry Falwell and Paul Wyrich started the moral majority in June of 1979. Now by this point, soap was on Thursdays at 9.30. Now remember, it was broadly a parody of soap operas. So the amount of ridiculous plot points and plot lines was manifestly a part of the show. Right. Interestingly, right as the moral majority was starting up, soap was winding up its exorcism plot line,

as well as dealing with the cult, the UFOs, and its final season, or not in its final season, it's a season finale. In season three, yeah. Yeah, season three is around the time the show's gonna go off the rails, you know? Yes. Like, but again, is it really off the rails

when it's parodying shows that went off the fucking rails, you know? You know, it's yeah. Yeah, can't really tell exactly which direction the influence is flowing. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And which I don't know the thing that you pretend is the thing that you become too. So so in season three, December 27th, 1980. Okay, so the election has happened. Inorguration has not. Jody has to deal with the anti gay housing issues, having to pretend that the baby is his own daughter, and not that he's a single gay man raising a child.

His being gay is clearly at the center of his problem. And there's a wonderful interaction that he has with the social worker. And at one point she even says, are you practicing homosexual? He says, no, I don't have to practice him very good at it. Which is played for enormous laps. And it's a good line.

It's a very good line. And she's a black social worker. Yeah, she's a black social worker. At one point she says, you're looking very pale. And he says, so were you. Yeah, she's a black social worker at one point. She says, you're looking very pale. And she says, so are you. You know, so like there's a lot of shit going on. There's a lot packed into that scene.

But and she's a social worker. And she's assessing the health of the child because it's living with a gay. Now, a few episodes later, that I know it's so weird. We're born basically. Right. Yeah. Now Now a few episodes later, Jody is giving real relationship advice to Billy. He is a fully rounded person with a

love life with advice to give with perspective that others take into account. And his status as a queer person is central to his identity as a character, but it is not the soul defining feature. And nor is it really played for last by the time the moral majority gets off the ground. So they're a little late to the party. And in many ways, this helps them to make their argument because they're like, look, they're sneaking it in on you. At this time, more and more of the continued criticism centers on Jodi more than anything else in the show. And there was far less concern over their excreating of the rich anymore, which was a thing in the beginning. Like they made too much fun of the rich.

It's like, oh, however, there was also some shade that was thrown over the way that they lampooned anti-communist activities, marital infidelity, sexuality in general, both the unfaithful kind and the faithful kind. They lampooned anything. Yeah. As one of the $8 fell in love with a priest. Now, by the end of the series, the decline in ratings was measurable. Soap had started at 13th and had gone down to 25th.

Actually, I think it started at 14th, jumped up to 13th and then dropped down to 25th in two years. Now, it's still one of the top 25 shows. That's not awful. No. But during the 1980-81 season, soap dropped to 46th. It was not renewed. it left the cliffhanger as an actual cliffhanger.

Now the network cited low ratings as its reason. And this makes plenty of sense from the corporate network perspective, absolutely. But why those ratings dropped is worth a few looks. So first, I'm gonna say it wasn't the writing. The whole point of the show was to be over the top. Now, having said that, I am going to say it could be a layer of fatigue that sets in that you normally see with parody. Think of any movie that's a parody. They're all on the short

side. Right. They're all a series of really good bits strung together by a loose plot and Almost none of them end with any kind of coherent ending worthy of the rest of the movie Yeah, I think that's a fatigue that happens with parody get smart is a good example At a different struggle to think of like very many good examples of TV shows specifically Yeah, like like in movies, I could think of a bunch of them, but like Mel Brooks. Right. But name a Mel Brooks movie that has a good ending. No, yeah. It's all pretty unresolved. Yep. Because there's no there there. Yeah. I mean, the plot is never the point. Right. The plot carries you through from bit to bit. And then in the same way that this show starts with like a Bible where it's like a

deep dive into all the characters, but not necessarily the details of what's going to happen to those characters. Like even in its conceptualization, the show wasn't about the plot, the plot was circumstantial exactly I mean she even said it was a modular plot you can use it around as you saw fit and she'd like that Yeah, that's that's the framework that she wanted to play in yeah, what she gets to that's great But it also means that your show is gonna have a time limit Yeah, you then you also don't you don't have like the big metanerative that Yeah, because you then you also don't you don't have like the big meta narrative that keeps people invested and I watched lost all the way to the end. It wasn't for the quality. It was for the plot.

It was good. There was a strike because the studios refused to pay writers for DVD rights. And that killed it like it. That was second season and third season. Same thing with heroes, but I watched them all the way the end because of the plot, not because it was bit strung together. At a different time in place in our culture, there was a TV show called Get Smart. Now, it lasted five seasons, and that's only one more than soap did But it was a very different country from 1965 to 1970 than it was from 77 to 82 Police squad came out in 82 and it lasted just a few episodes. I want to say six episodes

When a parody doesn't grow into something else It seems to have a shelf life of around four to five years quite honestly But I also think ultimately that the culture shifted out from under soap It doesn't grow into something else. It seems to have a shelf life of around four to five years, quite honestly. But I also think ultimately that the culture shifted out from undersoap. Here's an example. Dallas and the dukes of hazard were rated numbers one and two in 1981. Both were beyond their pilot season.

Both were settling into their grooves culturally. Magnum PI was number 14 in its pilot and in its pilot season. And I bring that up because that's where soap entered in too close for comfort was number 15. That later became the Ted night show. You might remember it was set in San Francisco. So I love the Ted night show. Yeah. With Oh God, what was his name?

Not Joey Susu. I think he was in it too though, but there's another guy in it. The one who was gay. Now I'll come up with it later. Facts of life came in at 26 and it was in its sophomore season. So we are now starting to see Charlotte raise's breasts, you know, the jiggly. We don't want to get away from that. No, Kenya though. They're jiggly. Yes.

Bless her for it. Now, these several shows be speak a lot about American culture when it comes to television. Dallas and the dukes of hazard were very white, very heteronormative and southern. Now, there are different kinds of southern, but they were southern. One was just a soap opera, asked as soap, and the other one was

pretty zany and broad based in its humor. So they both had aspects of what soap was doing, but neither was subversive. But on like opposite side of the spectrum. And you could say that Dukes of Hazard was technically subversive because they're just the good old boys been in trouble with the losses the day they were born. But they're clearly, you know, yeah, exactly, but the law is really the problem in that one. And I don't think Dukes of Hazard, you could say is really all that subversiveaves to be perfectly honest, because it's playing to that borderlander

mentality. But really, both of them are affirming Reaganism as its growing in 1980 and 81, and the shift rightward that happened as a result. And I think it's that shift, the victory of the same people who were against soap on a cultural level, that that was the end. The abrupt end of soap was because Ronald Reagan got inaugurated in January of 1981, January 20th. April 20th soap goes off the air and never comes back. With Reagan comes the new era and the networks reacted. There was so much more action on TV, all of a sudden, fall guy, Magnum PI, Hillstreet Blue, Strike Force,

Duke's of Hazard, Simon and Simon, TJ Hooker, March of 1982. More rich people too, Dallas, Heart to Heart, Dynasty, Facts of Life, Nots Landing, Falconcrest, Fantasy Island, way less subversion. Those that were subversive were absolutely fading out of a very crowded week. The Jefferson's is on its way out. Alice

is on its way down. WKRP is all but gone. Reagan was categorically quiet on the upcoming AIDS crisis too. He sl who are working for the community. He's got a lot of work to do with the community. He's got a lot of work to do with the community. He's got a lot of work to do with the community.

He's got a lot of work to do with the community. He's got a lot of work to do with the community. He's got a lot of work to do with the community. I mean, whoo, pussy magnet. And he focused instead on this idea of American patriotism and optimism for the middle and upper classes. And he came into office during an election in which only 52% of the electorate came out, which was the lowest amount of people who voted since 1948. Wow.

But, Tel Avangelis were definitely on the rise after Reagan came in. Sure. Until scandals brought them lower in the mid 1980s anyway. It might have had to do it. The fact that the FCC was being allowed to take money for religious broadcast for the first time, which opens up the for profit profits in earnest. That reads much better than it looks because profits is spelled different than anyone. But it might have had to do with the advent of cable television and national second-tier networks like TBS, stuff like that. Either way, the shift in television didn't auger well for soap. And the people who deposed it on a cultural level were now in power making the rules. Anthony Thymopoulos was in charge of ABC during the show's tenure. And he had a very

hard line stance on quick cancellations of shows that required attention. He didn't like a show that he had to pay attention to. Now, I don't mean mentally as in like, oh, this is a very engaging show. I mean, where he had to actually step in and mediate things and stuff like that. He also had a really hard stance on stars and being tough on them with their contracts. I'm trying to remember if it was him that got rid of Valerie Harper and turned it into the Hogan family. That might have been Lewis Erlich who came after him. But there was somebody else, it might have been somebody else that he just negotiated real

hardball with and basically forced them out. After him, Lewis Erlich took over and by 1983, the move toward more detective shows on ABC was in, and shows with Shetland Blackmen. Shetland Blackmen. Yeah, Webster and different strokes. Short black guys. There's this interesting thing, Shetland. It is interesting to me that you had two shows at the same time.

I mean, there's some overlap where you have a short black man who is telling the truth in a comedic way, but his physical stature is short. And you wonder like, if there was some world in which those two ideas developed independent of each other, like, if there was some world in which those two ideas developed independent of each other, like, you know, pissed off for those showrunners. They're like, you mother fucker. Like, another, how the hell? But also the fact that you've, you've got this, you know, charismatic sarcastic tells it like it is black person telling you things, but he's also short. I think that that physical stature aspect. It could because it's very easy to discount short people like you don't expect a lot. So you've automatically lowered your expectations. Right. And then he has this spunky little personality and so right. So so it's kind of written off is like

well that's spunky you know and yeah yeah but it's it's like a very like trying to create that dichotomy that tension between like I think it also small package big personality yeah but I also think it makes them sexless ultimately um and and it takes away the verility of their observations. Newters them on some level. So, but anyway, so the results of this was that people, how to put this, people learned their lessons from soap. People who oppose soap learned their lessons from it. And they were definitely made part of the standard playbook now, these lessons that they learned. Moral grifters who sought to control as much as they could knew, here's what we can use as our bogeymen. And they made normal their values. They normalized their values so that much of their efforts was much more about reinforcing those values

that are now entrenched and hunting down more and more obscure bogeymen, too. And the results were manifest. The desire for subversive shows, parody, or otherwise, was backburner or muted until after Reagan left office. It wouldn't be until the scandals of the mid 1980s and their fallouts, for instance, Iran Contra, and the extreme rightward shift of things that occurred throughout the Reagan's two terms, then until anyone, you know, it's not until that that anyone finds commercial success

confronting the culture with comedy for anything more than a very special episode. And with whole and complete depiction of marginalized folks. Roseanne starts in 1989. And look how that ended. Yeah, well, and that's a whole another episode that I really do want to explore because. Yeah, you probably said it so much. Oh, it's the tragedy of the contrarian. And also fuck her because she's an adult, she's responsible for her own shit. But in 89, she's incredibly subversive. Uh-huh.

Putting poor people on TV. Yes. Having people, yeah, I mean. I love what's to see that. But that's after Reagan's leaves office. Now, except for the Golden Girls, which definitely in 1985, I want to say Golden Girls got started. And it definitely was subversive, but

it was subversive because with old ladies, it was layered in. And all four characters were very strong and the show as a result was able to speak very plainly on several topics while still steeping it in humor. So with the exception of the Golden Girls, pretty much the cancellation of soap meant that those who had opposed soap had found the playbook that worked. Now, they just have to replicate it. And they kept replicating it and they normalized their shit. So the point where you don't even bother anymore with the exception of the Golden Girls, and keep bringing them up, because they're like the standout.

Yeah. Well, guess, guess, guess what the the fun connection there is. No, what? what you know who created the golden girls Susan Harris really Yeah, and remember yeah, and she had written for be Arthur for mod She's kind of badass huh, she's a badass dude like she really is So that's that's pretty much where the story of soap ends. I mean, it did end and the right did win and the tactics that they learned

in trying to get rid of soap were the tactics that they employed to make it so that another show like that would never happen. And so that they could elect all kinds of terrible people to enact their, their hypocrisies. So. So, I want you to dick bags.

Yes, yes. So aside from a bunch of dick bags and that powdery look on your face, have you gleaned anything? Yes, I have. I have. Do tell. Gleaned anything? Yes, I have. I've do tell Gleaned quite a bit about

I know we talked about in the first episode Got a little bit more of like the Susan Harris biography and like understanding her as a person and starting to understand the social movements that we're going into it, but in this episode I feel like I really understood the connection specifically to Reagan and these very specific pivots in culture and the reaction that often happens when people get uncomfortable. Yeah. And they got uncomfortable over a modicum of reversal of oppression. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there you go. That's uh. But I also learned that the same person that made soap made golden girls and I'm pretty excited about that. Yeah. And that gives me a trajectory because obviously I'm not a quitter.

So I started watching soap in preparation for us chatting. So I'm clearly gonna have to watch it through the the end. And now I know what my next steps are gonna be. And I just made this mental connection that the actor that plays Mary's husband, Bert. Yep. Bert Campbell. Yes. That he goes on to start an empty nest, which is a spin off of golden girls,

which is, it's just awful circle from your right now. Oh, yeah, yeah. So you're going to go to, well, an empty nest is like the next year of my life. So empty nest is unfortunately the next year of my life. Empty nest is unfortunately the safe cousin of the golden girls. Yeah, it is nowhere near as it does have. It's got like the the subversive infrastructure and it doesn't do anything with it. Yeah, it's just kind of like, I don't know, it's the gold retriever of shoes. Like it's just like, oh funny.

It's like it. That's good because it's cuddly. Well, and that's the dog in that. Yes, yes. That's like the perfect dog for that. Yeah. You know, it just works. Because like the two sisters living with them, and I mean, you've got all kinds of like

reversal of fortune issues that come up and you've got the one sister. Yeah, they're not, they don't dig into it. It's just like, incidental. Right. Maybe that's the point. Like, maybe that's how you actually normalize things is you don't call attention to it. You just make it part of the scenery. Yeah, I just, no fault the voices were so recent.

Like, you know, they normalize it in the same way that full house normalized moms dying. I don't think that that's a good normalization. I think that's a, you use it as a plot device to make it go. Sure. You know, and I think that you could have fleshed a lot of that stuff out, had those characters because it's not like they don't date, too. You know, they do. Right. And you could have had those characters do that. Oh, and Joey Sus is in that one.

It just wasn't the story that they were right. Just in telling, I guess. Yeah, it's just the story they were interested in telling was really milk toast too. Yeah, it was vanilla for sure. Yeah, I dated a gal who she would have the TV on and there's a channel up here. That is, I don't know what the station is, but she got network TV. And I'd come over for, you know, coffee in the morning before I'd go off to work. And that show would be on. It was that show. It was like spin city.

And I was always bummed because it would be like coming up next is night court. I'm like, Goddamn it. Can they switch it? It would really work better in my schedule. Yeah. But like, so she and I would, you know, we'd watch part of an episode and I'd ask her all kinds of questions. She grew up watching the show. But yeah, it was, I was struck by how harmless the show was. I guess I just want a little bit more jabby in the i.e. kind of, you know. So, but yeah, you could you could absolutely go from, well, and that's the 1980s effect, ultimately, of Golden Girl or of soap to Golden Girls. So soap, it's in your face. Golden girls, we did some clever writing. You still have to deal with it.

And then we can the refractory period is. Yeah. Yes. So yeah. Well, cool. Uh, dude, thank you so much for for doing this with. This is so fun. I'm so glad. Fun. Cool. If I if I have stuff that deals with ancient art and stuff, we'll have you back on or that. Hey, we might have to make the Batman the animated. Oh, yes, absolutely. You have a lot of research to do for.

I'll have to do the heavy lifting on that. So, you know, so, it's definitely listening audience. Please don't expect that anytime soon. But when you do, remember, she's even more an academic than I. So it'll be super geeky. Yeah. Oh, that'll be cool. It'll be good to take a take a hour off. So just pass the mic buddy. Yeah. I'll just throw it a few Batman puns. It'll be good. Yeah. So all right. So is there any books that you would want to recommend to us this time around? So, you know, I've been reading lately is the Haunting of Hill House, which has fairly recently been, so the original novels like from the 60s by an author Shirley Jackson, and Netflix did a, Jackson and Netflix did a like a mini series or a limited series and it became super popular and that's how I found it. I my niece and my sister were like you

got a walk taunting in Hill House and it was really really well done and horror but in a way that's really clever so then I wanted to of course read the source material so then of course the read the source material. So then I'll read the book. So, and the book is totally different from the Netflix series, but in kind of a really cool way that just expands the lore kind of. So, would you say that, like, because I read,

I of course watched the most perfect movie ever, Princess Bride, and then I read the book, and they're very different, and they're both perfect. Is it kind of like that? Like you don't have to say well the book was better or worse but they're different. They're not even competing with each other. They're just like they both have the same house in it and the characters do some different things and they both and even totally they're totally different. Like the showrunner for hunting of Hill House has a really different story that he's trying to tell than what Shirley Jackson was trying to tell.

They almost use the same universe to tell it. So it's good stuff. Nice. Classic, classic. I like it. I like it. Well, I'm reading a book by Doug Douglas Wolk called All of the Marvels. I got it from a birthday.

And it's essentially somebody doing two Marvel comics, what I have done to Twilight Zone, Batman, zombie movies. I mean, it is right up my alley. That sounds like your perfect book. Yeah, I really, you know, I'm really enjoying it. The side, what do you call that? The dust jacket. Side to explanation says.

Sign. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's the part that inner flap. That's flap, yeah. Yeah, it just, it sounds dirty. He read all 27,000 plus comics that make up Marvel universe from Alpha Flight to Omega, the unknown, and then he made it make sense, seeing into the ever expanding story in its parts as a whole and seeing through it as a prism through which we view the landscape of the American culture.

Like, sounds like fun. And it is. I'm really enjoying it. I'll have to actually get the name of that from you. Because my ex-husband is a big Marvel fan. And when he started going through the Marvel comics, like, he made a spreadsheet to try to keep up with all the different timelines and the stories that interlapped.

And like, it was a wrap. Like, if you geek out on spreadsheets and Marvel comics, it was a thing to behold. Very cool. Cool. Well, working for people finding you on the social media. Well, you can find me on Instagram at Amanda Lanham yoga and, um, Lanham L.A. And H.A. I'm silent H. Okay, cool. And is there anything you want people to follow anything that you've got coming up that you want to plug? Nothing super specific, but I tend to post through my social media both my teaching schedule. So if you're here in the San Francisco East

Bay and you want to come take a yoga class with me. I like to kind of weave some elements of storytelling into my yoga classes, so it's good times. And then follow me on Instagram. I also do some singing. So I post some things there as well. Very nice. Pauli Glott. I'm Damien Harmony. You can find me at Doh Harmony on Insta and Twitter, two Hs in the middle. You can also follow my partner who should be back soon at EH Blalock on the Twitter, at Mr. Blalock on the, what do you call that? The TikTok. The TikTok. That's what the kids call it. That's what the kids call it. And you can also find both of us, That's what the kids call it. And you can also find both of us corporately

at Geek History Time, both on Twitter and Geek History Time.com. So hit us up there. You can also find this podcast. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe. Rate, review, give us the five stars that we earned. Look at the talent that I'm pulling in to be on this show. Give us that five star review, tell people how much you like it, share it with your friends.

If you don't like it, shut up. But you can find us on the Apple Podcast, you can find us on Stitcher, on Spotify. It's just all kinds of good fun. So you can find us there. You can find me, finally, at Luna's in Sacramento, on January 14th, as well as on February 4th and March 4th, a sling and puns because capital punishment has come back live.

So I think this will release just before that. So you need to save up about a buck 50 a day until January 14th. So you can have the $10 to get in and you need to bring proof of vaccination. Proof of three shots is preferred, but you at least need proof of your double Vax. That way we can keep people safe and keep doing this. So well, Amanda Lanham, thank you so much for joining us today for a key history of time. I'm Damien Harmony.

And as Ed Blaylock would currently say, always roll a 20. I actually doesn't say that he says something different. I, you know, Ed, come back. God damn. And as Ed Blaylock would currently say, always roll a 20. I actually doesn't say that he says something different. I, you know, Ed, come back. God damn it.