A Geek History of Time - Episode 144 - V for Vendetta Redux Part II

Episode Date: February 5, 2022

BELLS Blow in her face and she'll follow you anywhere. You are destroying the Constitution of the United States may God have mercy on your souls. Good day. Yes. It's a very sad word. We could be saying that we just elected the right white man to power. That's creepy but that's in a different category of creepy. Zizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizuzizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz There's a plan of what fucking truth that matters, trying to get it. Like with most episodes I can bring him back to wrestling. Right, well he's got other people who work for him who also do things.

And they can use mutate, kill and size into smaller worlds after all. Fuck you. I still don't give a shit about getting fake property in a fantasy game. 1.5-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1- This is a geek history of time. Where we connect nursery to the real world, the funny is that low-aka in the world's history and English teacher at the middle school level here in Northern California. And in big, nerd news for me, I participated in the Kickstarter campaign for the Restoration Games project for the Return to Dark Tower. And that was in 2019. And since then, we've entered into a pandemic that still has not

abated. And that led to even more complications to the process that with Kickstarter usually takes some time. And so it was just earlier today in January of 2022, that the game actually showed up at a friend's house, having made it across the Pacific from its manufacturer in China. And I am ridiculously excited to hopefully get my hands on it later this weekend. It got delivered to my friends place

because at the time of the Kickstarter, timing being what it is with Kickstarter campaigns, I didn't have the cash lying around to pledge, but I knew I was going to get the money. And so I put the call out for anybody to put the money down for me and I'd pay them back. And my friend Brian Hay, who is a listener of the show, many, many, many thanks to you, sir, for that. And it's exciting for me because the original Dark Terragame was something I coveted so badly when I was about 10 years old. And so for me this

is one of those wonderful. Hey, you know what? I'm a grown-up and I have my own money and within certain limits I can do what I want with it. Kind of moments for me. So that's what I have going on. And at some point when it's safe again to have multiple people in the same room at once, we're going to have to spend a couple of episodes talking about games, just like board games doing stuff, because I think that'll be a lot of fun. So anyway, that's what I've got going on. Who are you and what's happening there? Well, I'm Damien Harmonia, I'm a Latin and drama teacher

up here in Northern California. We actually just recently got a escape room game, a Star Wars escape room game. Okay. And the kids and I barely escaped off and did not escape the next mission. We were smugglers captured by the Imperials. We did not escape the next mission in time because we made every goddamned error you could make and that carries within a one minute penalty. Oh, sans penalties, we actually would have had two minutes to spare. Okay.

Yeah, I'm hoping that when we tried to escape from Jakku this coming weekend that we might stand a chance. All right. So that's what I've got going on. Very cool. Yeah. Now, when last we spoke about this,

we had just finished off the comic book version of V for Vendetta. Yes. And while interesting and fun and a fun episode in its own right, whether it's with a comic book writer or with yourself, the real meat on the bone for me was comparing that to the movies because they both went off of the same source material in very different places and times. Yes. So about a generation of heart too. So give it to you. Yeah, pretty close. Yeah.

So Let's talk about the V for Vindetta movie. Have you seen you. Yeah, pretty close. Yeah. So let's talk about the V for Vindetta movie. Have you seen it? Oh, I have. Yes. Okay. Wonderful. Now, when I went and saw it, it was at the dome theaters, they when they existed, and I literally walked there. Yeah. Okay. It was back when I was, if not newly married, newly moved into the apartments over there. And my wife at the time worked nights, so I would treat some movies from time to time. So, one of the movies I did that, another one was collateral, which, yeah. But, but yeah, okay, V for a vendetta. All right.

So Hugo Weaving V. Yes. And I'm forgetting this first name, Natalie Portman, of course, as Oh my God, Evie. And in a remarkable Oh, I'm going to get that turn again to the stomach casting. Stephen Fry, I'm just going to mention Stephen Fry as he is kind of boss. Interesting because of course in our in the episode, talking about Sherlock Holmes, of course, Hugh Laurie, Portrait House as an interpretation of Holmes,

and Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry kind of got famous in Britain together in their sketch comedy show, A Bit of Fry and Laurie. So in my own head, they're always interlinked because that was nice. Yeah. So anyway, sorry, massive tangent. But yeah, Yeah, so anyway, sorry, massive tangent, but yeah, remarkable cast. Yeah, just, just, yeah. Yeah. And directed by the Wukowski siblings. Oh, crap, I had forgotten that detail. Like big deal.

You know, remarkably enough, for the Wukowski's, it's a pretty straightforward flick. Like you look at, you look at V for Vendetta. You look at Speed Racer. You look at the Matrix movies. And V for Vendetta feels in some ways like the most conventional narrative, if you get what I'm saying. Yeah, no, I can't.

I mean, Speed Racer, for example, is just like a candy coated acid trip visually. The matrix movies, the original matrix trilogy movies are really heavy meta reality. What does reality even mean? kind of kind of stuff. And Vifur Vendetta is as we established is this Robinhood, yeah, and where it's Robinhood as a revenge story. Yeah.

Like, you know, although Vifur Vendetta is a person who was medically made one way by an establishment and was not given full agency over that choice and who then wore a mask through a large portion of his life thereafter. Okay, yeah. Okay. Good point. Yeah, all right. So the history of the comic,

turning into the movie is actually kind of a sad history from the artist's perspective. Alan Moore maintains that DC all but stole the rights to his favorite properties, V for Vendetta and the Watchman. And it was their treatment of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen that sououred him entirely. Oh yeah. By the time V for Vendetta was in production, he had specifically asked DC to take his name off of those properties. Yes. And basically he was pissed and thinks that he was duped. And he said,

quote, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was the reason why I decided to take my name off of all subsequent films. Yep, he goes on. Yeah, a lot of things which had to do with League made me decide I really wanted nothing to do with the American film industry in any way, shape or form, which is why I asked DC if I could possibly have my name taken off of the films and the money redistributed.

This went fine with Constantine film. This was because my name was never going to be I was never going to go on the Constantine film in the first place because that had gone so well. I distributed the money amongst the other artists and my name hadn't been on the film and I was completely happy. I assumed when the DC when DC then sent me the paperwork so I could sign my money over to David Lloyd on the V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V for a V and that's completely dishonest and was saying the complete opposite. So I felt I had to at that point exercise my judge, my, sorry, exercise my right to completely sever myself from DC comics if assuming that they weren't able to just get a simple retraction, nothing humiliating, just a simple retraction

apology and a clarification that would have said, we regret that due to a misunderstanding blah, blah, blah, that would have been all. DC told me they were really trying hard to get that. I kind of got the idea that in fact they probably were just hoping, were just hoping if they stalled long enough, it wouldn't blow or it would blow over. And there wouldn't be anything I was able to do about it. After a few weeks, it turned out they hadn't been trying to get any apology or attraction or at least not very hard. They certainly weren't able to offer one or they weren't able to offer one that was anything like what I'd asked for.

At this point, I said that it's, I said that's it. I'm not working for DC again. And I also still want my name off this film. If they don't take my name off this film, I will be taking my name off the books because it means that much to me to sever my connection with the whole painful business. There's more. Wow. The way I've left it is,

all right, DC can take my name off of V for Vendetta and stop paying me the money. And if that doesn't happen, take my name off of all the books and stop paying me the money. So no telling where this happen, take my name off of all the books and stop paying me the money. So no telling where this one could run to, I mean, believe me, I would be completely happy if my name came off of everything I do not own. I'm not expecting DC Comics to be shamed by my asking

to have my name taken off the work. I don't think anyone's going to be shamed. So yeah, you know, on some levels, like I really liked that he was like, yeah, take my money and give it to someone else. So he had to give it to David Lloyd. He illustrated it. I thought that was pretty rad. On other levels, it's like either, either make a better deal upfront, man, or like don't

do. Well, he learned, you know, I do want to say like, well, you shouldn't have done it in the first place, but he learned from you. But like, there's a lot of bitterness there. And he does seem like the kind of guy who has these wonderful toys who gets mad if you play with them the wrong way. It's interesting. He has these wonderful toys. He kind of gets mad if you play with them the wrong way. But he also has in other interviews, he's referred to, and I don't remember whether he's the one who's actually done a derp, he's made a reference to another writer, and I'm blanking on

he's made a reference to another writer, and I'm blanking on how the whole quote goes. But he says, effectively, I think he's talking about another writer, and I don't remember who it was. Somebody asks this other writer, how do you feel about people ruining your books when they make them into movies? And he takes this journalist or whatever it is

into his library and says, my books are all there upon the shelf. They haven't been ruined. They're right there. That's been my thing when we remember Star Wars. And I'm wondering, and now I'm wondering if I'm attributing to Alan Moore, a quote from Neil Gaiman.

That might be, because you remember when when I when Star Wars sold to Disney and then Disney canceled all the books as canon. Yeah, they're no longer canon. Everybody, everybody knew me. I mean, everybody who knows me knows that I have like all the Star Wars books pre that sale. Yeah. And everybody who knew me came to me, Damien, what do you think? And I'm like, what do you mean? What do we think? Disney bought the thing and now they're not canon? I'm like, they didn't come to my house and burn them. I'm good. I'm good. I'm okay. I'm interested in what Disney does quite honestly, because yeah, fucking I'd love for anybody else to not have to go through planet of twilight.

Don't get me start on the crystal star, you know, like I'd be fine if Disney cherry picked and took like, you know, maybe there's a male and a female who are connected through the forest who end up having to fight to the end. Maybe maybe maybe the male is, uh, is turns to the dark side and acts like his grandfather and starts to take the wrong lessons. Oh, yeah, you know, maybe that'd be kind of cool. See what they can do with it. Maybe there's a blue skin Sherlock Holmesy and kind of villain with with red eyes. Maybe they can do something with that.

Yeah. So yeah, yeah. with with red eyes, maybe they can do something with that. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. You know, I don't know. I'm not there. I've not created anything so precious that if it sold and people completely bastardized it,

I, I have been upset by it yet. And maybe I would be. But yeah. So V for Vendetta was acquired by DC and it had a number of pressings since the mid 1980s. Yeah. I 2006 DC had sold over 500,000 copies of V for Vendetta. And it's way better than more than like I said, it was not a successful comic commercially. Now, the Wukowski siblings were interested since the mid 90s and after the Matrix blew up, they had the capital to get their way. The Warner Brothers, option the movie and the Wukowski Sibs, modernized the script and then Americanized the script.

Yeah, more than like that, I mean, no. To him, the movie ceased to be about the extreme ideologies of anarchism and fascism and England specifically, and it became an American version that lacked the satirical content that he purposely explored, which shock Americans do British satire poorly. Yeah. More stated that the story. Now, so just keep in mind, DC bought V for vendetta from more and then they farmed it out to the Wukowski's to transfer it to another medium. So it's a third step or it's a second step away from the original artist and it is intent. More stated that the story, quote, has been turned into a bush era parable

by people too timid to set a political satire in their own country. It's a thwarted and frustrated and largely impudent American liberal fantasy of someone with American liberal values standing up against the state run by neo conservatives, which is not what the comic V for Mendeza was about. It was about fascism. It was about anarchy. I think his point. I think he is stating his point in a kind of a get off my lawn kind of way. But I mean, that doesn't invalidate his point, but he kind of comes across a little bit like a crank.

Yeah, he really does. Which he kind of is. I mean, he's also in other interviews in more recent years. Him and Frank Miller have both kind of in different ways. They've both wound up at the cranky old man, you know, shake a fist at cloud. Right. You know, kind of kind of realm. I think there is definitely something valid in what he's saying there. But here's the thing. I think anytime you create something that somebody else adapts,

like there's gonna be, but other people are gonna view it through different prism. Yep. Other people are going to pick up on and latch onto other parts of it or other aspects of it. And I mean, certainly our sensibilities in the United States And I mean, certainly our sensibilities in the United States as a mass culture are more blunt for lack of a better word. That's kind of the term that comes across.

We don't tend to go for subtlety. Yeah, well, we're also much younger in the country. And well, yeah, it is that too. It's part of the reason. But, and so, like, I mean, the moment the movie got made by Americans, well, yeah, it's gonna get Americanized. Like, there's no way to prevent that. Like, I mean, you can use certainly as a creator of work,

can have an opinion about how somebody else has adapted it. But I don't know. I understand his bitterness about the way the business worked out. But I think his bitterness about the way the business worked out, colors, his statements and his perception of what the Wakowski's did with the story. Yeah, I mean, I think he's right. The movie, despite being set in England, is not about England. And he is right that it avoids all kinds of shit that's really important, like the racism, the white supremacy, the ethnocate bullshit of the ruling party's fascism. It even leaves out the fascism, and alludes to it not so subtly, but I think ultimately

he gets kind of purity testy here. I'd leave out the kind of, I think he gets the testy, and I think it bothers me, I mean, I understand where it comes from, but it bothers me when I hear anybody to the left of liberals being so condescending when they use the term liberal. Like from the right, I know that, you know, the Republican party in the United States has has campaigned successfully to turn the word liberal into a slur. Yeah, but they don't in the public in the public consciousness. Yeah, I know. That's kind of what I'm saying. And the thing is it, it like I take it for granted coming from the right.

It like I take it for granted coming from the right, but when it's coming from the left, I don't know, just for me like on an entirely different level and ask somebody who doesn't identify as a liberal, it still bugs me because... Liberals have done a good job of casting themselves as your reasonable middle and I would say that leftists are, and we're seeing it bear out quite honestly, the leftists are not wrong about liberals. They would rather lose to fascists than they would lose to the left.

And they would rather lose to fascists than they would turn leftward. Like we're seeing that time and again, Jimmy Carter just wrote me an op-ed just the other day. And Jimmy Carter's brilliant man, brilliant, brilliant man and has, oh my God, the biggest heart. He wrote an op-ed, I think, in the New York Times just the other day.

And he said, the real problem is that we're also divided. We need to just come together, which I've never, like, the reason we're also divided is kind of the thing you should probably talk about there Jimmy and he doesn't really and he even said you know we're like on the precipice of losing democracy like he gets started but then he goes center like a good liberal. And I think leftists have a legitimate gripe. They've seen generations and generations of using leftist talking points and then abandoning them as soon as he get into power to court the right even though the right keeps pulling sideways. So yeah, you know, and at the same time, I don't disagree with you because I think that the left can sometimes

get caught up in its purity test stuff and it's hatred of liberals for betraying their principles over and over again and running to the center. Thinking that the center is always, it's thinking that moderation is an ideology instead of a temperament. But at the same time, if a liberal retelling a V for vendetta popularizes the idea that you should stand up to fascism, even if it's a watered down version of what Alan Moore did, it's still in reaching a mainstream audience and bringing some of those ideas not in their pierced form, but he is bringing some of those ideas to people who would not have seen it. And in fact, you know, the movie led to people buying the comic book. So now people are going back to the source material and they are reading Alan Moore's work

and they've done that only after they saw the movie. And since the comic is from two decades earlier, it's obviously going to be a snapshot. Yeah. It's definitely a relic of 1980s England, which is not going to appeal to people in a massive way, but now that you have given them a palette setter, not so much a cleanser, but a palette setter, now they're able to understand better the source material when they read it. And you've gotten their attention to get them to do the deeper reading. Right. So I think that's all good stuff.

And I think he missed the forest for the trees reading. Right. So I think that's all good stuff. And I think he missed the force for the trees there. I think he has a legit gripe as a leftist about liberals. I also think that he got too precious about it was a certain place in time. And that's all it is, you know, and that you should stick to that. Because then that's that's limiting it and keeping it from reaching people. Like, and ultimately, leftists didn't really need to hear that message as much as the liberals did. So I'm kind of cool with it. Yeah. Yeah. The movie is a lot of fun and I'm easily entertained, but like, it's from an ideological perspective. I think Alan Moore, again, it's one of those, he's so right and he gets it so wrong still.

And I'm okay with that. David Lloyd, his co-creator on V for Vendetta, he liked the movie. He said, quote, it's a terrific film. The most extraordinary thing about it for me was seeing the scenes that I'd worked on and crafted from maximum effect in the book, translated to the film with the same degree of care and effect. The transformation scene between Natalie Portman and Hugo Weaving is just great. If you happen to be one of those people who admires the original so much that changes to it will automatically turn you off, then you may dislike the film. But if you enjoyed the original and can accept an adaptation that is different to its source material but equally as powerful, then you'll be as impressed as I was with it. He's clearly not as stuck to the purity of the art, given

the importance of the message and given the evolution of the art. Well, and given the evolution of the world since then, I mean. Also true. Yeah. Now, given my, this movie came out 15 years ago, 16 years ago because we're old. Um, I would also point out that David Lloyd, yeah, I would also point out that David Lloyd wants people to go see the movie because he makes more money from it. So nothing wrong with that. Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah.

So, but I do want to do Sherry interest. And yeah, you know, I do want to check out what more got right though, despite his purity testing and despite all that, from the time that he wrote and published V for vendetta and its resurgence with DC and with the movies a lot of the world had changed. Alan Moore's warning against fascism and nuclear war seemed quaint by the early 2000s largely due to the war on terror. Everpression he called out in the upcoming generation who would see the aforemented on screen. He called it out and which he thoroughly dissociates himself from, obviously, said, quote, they think they're growing up under the threat of Islamic jihad.

They're in fact growing up under the threat of nuclear winter, just like we were. But if you dig deeper, he's actually not far from the mark. Quote, I was saying back in 1981 or whenever it was, I was setting this in the absurdly far future period of 1997, where Britain would be run by computer centralized right wing government. And to show what they really were, to show what they really were, a nasty right wing government, the easiest and quickest shorthand was to put monitor cameras on every street corner. In 1997, in England, I believe it first began in the town of Kingsland, and they had monitor camera saturation where you could track somebody from one end of the town to the other without them

ever going off camera. And when this was successful, they shipped it into every town in the British Isles. So yes, there are monitor cameras everywhere. Yep. It's fairly obvious. It's what I would do if I were going to start a fascist political state. So I assume that it's what any would do. It's like terrorism. If you're talking about people here being more frightened of dying in a G-Hod, No offense, but that is perhaps more of an American perception than a global one. You have to remember that over here, there were teenagers being taken out of cellar bars and separate carrier bags all through the 70s and 80s because of the war in Northern Ireland, which in that case, the IRA were largely being supported by donations from America. That was why I was a bit worried when George

Bush said he was going to attack people who supported terrorism. I thought, oh my God, Chicago is going to be declared a rogue state and they're going to hunt down Teddy Kennedy and people like that. Uh-huh. So now the movie departs strongly from the comic in that it generalizes fascism into a series of images.

It mentioned Islam maybe twice and often in the same breath as queer folk. Nothing about white nationalism, nothing about hyper militarism. And it actually kind of doesn't have to because those things are done via montage or they're ignored. Yeah. The focus of the movie becomes V. It becomes his quest to write a wrong to save England and by extension Western culture from itself. He fights against the specific cruelties and hypocrisies of those in power in the movie and he punishes them for their transgressions. He also tortures Evie into her existential choice and she grows from all of it.

into her existential choice and she grows from all of it. So I want to take a second while we're talking about, we're talking about EV here. Oh, okay. And specifically about that. Okay. And, and well, okay, are we going, and maybe maybe later would be a better time to do it, but I, the perception specifically of V as a heroic figure by fan boys, bugs the shit out of me.

And, and so are we gonna, are we gonna get into that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And we are gonna get into the existential stuff with EV. So, okay. Don't think that I've said only that about it. I'm going to leave it. But, okay, said that, feel free to, you know, at least give the abstract version of your

shit being bugged out of you. The thing that consistently pisses me off and it came up in an internet conversation, I don't know, just a couple of weeks ago, on one of those alignment chart memes, somebody had put a V on an alignment chart, chaotic, neutral. And I looked at that, and went, okay, well, Alan Moore had him, you know, being the avatar of anarchism. So, makes sense to me. And some, you know, screaming fanboy in the comments said, well, you know, Vio had to be chaotic, good. And like, he tortured a, I mean, in the comics, I mean, in the comics, essentially a teenage girl into nearly a psychotic break, maybe not even nearly a psychotic break.

I mean, tortured to the point of mental collapse. And like, there's no way, like, no, no, he's not, he's not a hero in that good aligned, you know, daring, do hero kind of sense. He is an agent of, like at best, he's an agent of chaos. It's entirely possible. You could argue, you know, he's motivated by revenge, which is what we talked about when we talked about the comic book. Right. You know, so, I mean, you could potentially argue that he might even fall under chaotic evil depending on the way you want to interpret it, because of the length to which he's willing

to go. Yeah. And, and the, I mean, if you're willing to call Batman. Yeah, I hear lawful evil. Then you you'd have a hard time backtracking from calling Batman lawful evil and calling be anything but chaotic evil. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I yeah, I agree. I agree with that take. And you know, the, I think the biggest failing from a, from a storytelling standpoint of the film is, mentioned the movie focuses on him instead of being about Anglund and about the political ideas that focus on him. And by doing that, it makes it way too easy for people who don't pay attention

or don't think about what they're watching, to get all rar-a about him uncritically. Right. And have it turn into hero worship kind of situation. And that just, it just gets under my skin, it pisses me off. So. Well, and then if you take Evie, look at Evie,

in many ways, she's the avatar, not he, of the national character of England. Oh, yeah. The difference is that his chaos is a means to an end. It's not chaos just for its own sake. This is true. And it's not the means to an end, but it's a means to end and it's no longer about the freedom and the destruction necessary with anarchism, which is used to destroy fascism. The movie is about

mass action. It's about peaceful protests and it's about how we were all cout into submission and therefore we must all band together in protest and in peaceful confrontation. That's where more is 100% right. This is a liberal fantasy of what he had in mind because he was much more focused on the generalized riots in the streets. Not so much the everybody wearing the mask at the end. And the movie ends with 250,000 people storming the government and soldiers standing down and just letting them pass peaceably. Despite all of the indoctrination, all of the everything that would be involved. Oh, okay. I was going gonna say, yeah, I mean, yes, also that, but honestly, they weren't indoctrinated so much

as they were counted into submission, just kind of like, you know, go long to get along. But the head investigator, whose name I keep forgetting, well, it's Prothrow, but the actor, but he has this wonderful monologue of like, you know, they're like, well, what'll happen next? He says, what usually happens when people without guns run into people with guns? Like he's narrating it the way it's supposed to happen.

And then it doesn't happen that way. Yeah. Very liberal fantasy. The only time I've ever seen that happen is when it's the grandmothers in Argentina saying, where's my kids to the police? So yeah, 250,000 people storm the government, soldiers stand down, they pass peaceably, then everybody removes their guy, Fox masks,

and we see that V is all of us. The disease is cured. Yay. We gave everybody a Pepsi, and Kendall Jenner was there. So, yeah, it's, it's, so I mean, there's meat on the bone for his, his complaint. Again, we can be dig him to task for being cranky and, and a bit precious, but he is, he is right. Now, whether or not we think that that is a good development

is the question. I say that it is a good development because it popularizes his message overall. Yes, it waters it down. Others would say, no, it's the purity of the message that counts. And that's, you know, that is literally a valid disagreement. But that is something to-

That is something to- That is something to- Yeah. that is that is something to. Yeah, that is that is one of those points that can be, okay, we'll agree to disagree. Yeah, exactly. I tend to agree with you in the broad sense. I think I think it is disappointing to me that I feel like that ending being kind of paddling and being as you said a liberal fantasy. I feel like we don't need wish fulfillment in these kinds of stories as a culture. We need to take responsibility. We need to be willing to recognize that there are consequences, that there are sacrifices that need to be made

and that things aren't just going to magically get fixed. Because you had one march. Because you had one march. There's a great meme going around that I saw a while back that says, if your plan involves on everyone just anything, yeah, it's not going to work because everyone is not going to just. Right. If everyone would just fill in the blank, that's never going to happen.

You can't base any kind of expectation, social expectation, movement, anything on that. True. And I kind of feel like this ending, and the first time I saw the movie, it didn't bug me, but later, later viewing, it bucks me, densely, is like, well, and everyone just, you know, got out and marched and the summary everyone just, you know, got out and marched.

And the culture is just, you know, decided that it was morally wrong to shoot people. And, you know, this like 2006, though, you have to keep in mind, it is not 2022. It's 2006. That's true. This would be a very different movie getting made now. Exactly. In the wake of exactly looks around at everything. Yeah. So here's his speech in the TV from the TV on the movie. And he's calling folks out, and then he asks them to join him. He didn't ask them to join him in the comic. That's a really stark difference. But here's his quotes from the movie. So it's good evening, London.

Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of the everyday routine, the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as the next blow, or as much as any blow. But in the spirit of commemoration, where upon important events of the past,

usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle are celebrated with a nice holiday. I thought we could mark this November the fifth day that is sadly no longer remembered by taking some of the time out of our daylight lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who did not want us to speak. I suspect even now orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why?

Because while the truncion may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth, and the truth is there is something terribly wrong with this country. Isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and impression. And where, once you have the freedom to object, to think and to speak as you see, saw fit, you now have the sensors and the symptoms systems of surveillance, coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who is to blame? Well, certainly there are those who are more responsible than others and they will be held accountable. or worse your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who is to blame?

Well, certainly there are those who are more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable. But again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only to look in a mirror. I know why you did it. You, I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease.

There are a myriad of problems, which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. If you're got the best the best of you and in your panic you turn to the now high chancellor Adam Sutler. He promised you order he promised you peace and all he demanded in return was your silent obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence last night. I destroyed the old Bailey building to remind of the old Bailey to remind this country what it has forgotten. More than 400 years ago, a great citizen wished to embed the 5th of November in forever in our memory.

His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words. They are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, it's the crimes of this government remain unknown to you, then I would suggest that you allow the 5 fifth of November to pass as unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek, as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never ever be forgotten. Now as a Catholic, I'm sure you have something to say about Guy Fox. Oh boy, do I have some things to say about that Fox? Yeah, me too. Fucking Guy Fox. And the other 10,

by the way, it ain't just. Yeah, but he's the one that captured the popular imagination because he was the one they actually caught, like trying to actually blow the building up. So, and again, it's one of those, it's clear that people don't know their fucking history. How much love there is for Guy Fox. Well, okay, I don't genuinely know, and it would be something I'd like to hear from, perhaps any of our listeners who are in the United Kingdom.

I don't think in the United Kingdom that there is love for a guy, Fox. I think people in the United Kingdom have a profoundly different view of him than V describes. Simply because, of course, it was Parliament, which was the voice of the people, the representative government of the people of England, that he was trying to destroy with enough gunpowder to blow chunks of the people of England that he was trying to destroy with, you know, enough gunpowder to blow chunks of the building half a mile. Right.

By the way, by the way, car-sized chunks, because he and his co-conspirators didn't understand the power of the explosives they were using. the power of the explosives they were using. So he wasn't even really a competent terrorist, but what what I mean fundamentally is so egregiously teeth grindingly wrong about that characterization is that he and his co-conspirators were a bunch of fucking bigots. And I think in Britain, the way Guy Fox gets taught, that's, they understand that. Now, I'm going to argue that for a very, very long time, Guy Fox night, the 5th of November, was a profoundly anti-Catholic in general holiday. So the commemoration of the whole thing may have been skewed maybe a little

too far in the other direction. I'm going to say that as the Catholic and disabled, of course. to say that as the Catholic and disabled, of course. But I don't think in England, he's held up as some kind of folk hero. Yeah, no, it's much more fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First off, it's Bonfire night. Yeah. Second off, it's largely, it's, Bonfire night is very similar to our, in terms of, yeah, I would say it's similar to our July 4th. In terms of ways.

It's an excuse to get together with your neighbors. For them, it's a Toffee Apple and a bunch of fireworks. For us, it's way too goddamn much meat and a bunch of fireworks. Yes. Like there are some people who are like, you know, hey, this matters to me on a patriotic level, et cetera, et cetera. But by and large, it's-

Nowadays, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that seems to be the read on Bon Fire Night for most folks over there. And it should be noted at the founding of our own country or at the time of the founding of the United States. Bonfire night was celebrated by the colonies.

The colonies. Celebrated Bonfire night. And yes. And many of their pageants were profoundly anti-catholic. Uh, Massive, oddly, well, not oddly at the time, not oddly at all. Massachusetts was apparently particularly virulently so, which, you know, based on the demographics of modern Boston, might shocks some people, but this is before all the Irish got transported there. Exactly. So, it's a different time period, historicities of thing. But, you know, the entire reason, it had nothing to do with liberty.

The plot was to install, to try to install a Catholic monarch on the throne and undo everything that the stewards up to that point had done in favor of religious tolerance. Right. So, it's the world turned upside down. It's this bizarre, fun house mirror kind of distortion of the historical record when Guy Fox gets characterized that way. And so I think anybody who has heard lots of people who have heard the name Guy Fox here in the United States has this a historical connection to it. And they hear what V says and they're like, Oh, this is an English thing

Okay, well, you know, he was this folk hero like no, he was a religious fucking terrorist Well, I think our understanding of guy Fox and bonfire night first off. We don't we don't call it bonfire night But our understand and people will just post stupid shit online on November 5th But our understanding of it is kind of akin to our understanding of Cinco de Mayo and St. Patrick's Day. OK. OK, I can see that. I am going to.

There's a fetishizing. Yeah, there's definitely a fetish. Yeah, OK. OK, I can totally agree with that. And I'm going to understand of what it actually means. Like the only thing is the one that we don't actually drink on, which is kind of funny, because we usually use other people's holidays as a chance. As it is, it's used to get shit faced. Yeah.

And we didn't with this one, which is I'm going to, I'm going to say that in certain parts of the country, St. Patrick's Day might be better understood than Sinko Tamiya or Bodfire Knight. I'm gonna say, you know. But by and large, but by and large. But by and large. Like I said about it, the way you look at the way it's marketed, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, if you look at the way it's marketed

and if you look at, well, I mean, for the, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, if you look at the way it's marketed and if you look at, you know, mainstream, Pradi America, yeah, right. Yes, no. So, yeah. Now, at this time, Natalie Portman's and Hugo Weaving stars were rising. So it made sense to cast the both of them. Yes. They'd both shown tremendous range and other things. But the casting that I consider to be a bit of stunt casting is John Hurt. He plays Adam Sutler, who in the comic book was called Adam Susan. The fascist dictator whose face appears on an enormous screen overpowering and overwhelming the other characters in the audience. What's interesting there is that John Hurt played Winston Smith in 1984, a man who was crushed by the totalitarian

government of his time. And now he's disembodied head avatar of a totalitarian government. And that parallel did not go unnoticed by movie critics. Ebert said that he looked like the embodiment of Big Brother. Now the film itself was very successful. It made $132 million box office, and this is back in the days when DVD sales were a big part of how they would budget and project how much money they'd make. It made another 58 million in DVD sales. Oh, wow.

132 plus 100 plus, I'm sorry, 132 plus 58 is $190 million. Yeah. I'm sorry, 132 plus 58 is 190 million dollars. Yeah. Not a single cent of which did Alan Moore accept. Yes. Hugo weaving who played V in the movie, discussed the overall disparity between graphic novel and the movie. He said, quote, Alan Moore was writing about something which happened some time ago. It was a response to the living to living in That's right, Britain. This is a response to the living, to living in Thatchwright, Britain.

This is a response to the world in which we live today. So I think that the film and the graphic novel are two separate entities. Now again, he wants people to go see the movie. He also doesn't, which means he's kind of cutting to the middle. Like, hey, he did something great there. We're doing something great here. You should come see it, but Alan Moore is a good man.

And while the film was commercially successful, it was critiqued rather universally as not going far enough and being pureil in its approach. In the Atlantic, V from Indedis climatic destruction of architecture is vapid. Quote, in detonating Westminster, the Wikowski's in McTeeague, go at once too far and not far enough, too far, and expecting us to applaud the senseless destruction of one of the historical cathedrals of democracy, and that far enough in hesitating

to make the point by blowing up the White House or the Capitol dome, the true targets of their juvenile political ire. Their film is a bank shot against Bush simultaneously radical and cowardly. In the end, it's not clear which characteristic is the most embarrassing. Yeah, well, that's the Atlantic, which is a Republican rag. I would say that it is a conservative leaning really well done intellectual thing. But yeah, I don't necessarily, I don't think that you, I actually think that there's very good reasons why it needed to stay in England,

and I'm going to get to them soon. But I don't think that making it about being anti-America would have made it as commercially accessible, and therefore wouldn't have gotten the message out. and therefore wouldn't have gotten the message out. Yeah, no, I thoroughly agree with that. I'm mostly talking about their kind of dismissive tone of it in that way that it's like, well, you know, I mean, come on, you're calling Bush a fascist, like, come on. Come on.

He's, no, you're being over dramatic, you know, in that way that conservatives in this country did. Right. Every year until 2016. Right. And then they were categorically silent. And then they just shut up because like they couldn't keep that up anymore. So a major difference between the two, as you can probably see, is that the comic is set in Britain 1997 post-nuclear war. There's a totalitarian ethno state that has been legally elected to power. The main tension is between an anarchist shaking people and the government shaking them both up and giving a second option to fascism. These are done directly. They're not done subtly. In the movie, it's England, again, but in 2020, which means we're two years past.

Yes. But really, the setting is less important and frankly, less specific. It is, however, call out to the Patriot Act, lots of cameras, as Mocha said. Hmm. Oh, yeah explicitly. And there is a not insignificant abundance of references to black bags similar to the ones that were used at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. In fact, several parallels are shown visually and usually in a montage atmosphere between Gitmo and what the Norse fire government also legally elected had set up. There's more of a call out in the movie against citizen complacency too, all of which is

done through images, nothing actually direct. Sometimes though, the impact of a film can be iconic even if it's not critically acclaimed, and that brings me to the Fox, Fox masks used in the movie. David Lloyd stated quote, the guy Fox mask has now become a common brand and the convenient placard to use in protest against tyranny. And I'm happy with people using it. It seems quite unique. An icon of popular culture being used this way. Again, he seems to be wanting to make people happy and say, fairly milk toast middle thanks. Now, it could just be that he is milk toast and middle too. V for Mandela has been seen by many political groups as an allegory of oppression by its own

government. Libertarians and anarchists have used it to promote their beliefs. Libertarians and anarchists have used it to promote their beliefs. Interesting, libertarians do it, but then again they try to appropriate everything. More also thought that American audiences missed the mark with the mask. He said, quote, and also, they're making way too much of this guy fox thing. Guy fox was not a freedom fighter. He was a religious fanatic. I was just using Guy Fox as a symbol without really any references to the historical Guy Fox. It was the bonfire night Guy Fox that I was referencing with that at the same time easily available Guy Fox masks. Although weirdly, say we started doing

V for Vendetta in 1980, something like that. Up until that point, every November, you'd be able to find fireworks, and you'd be able to guy a by guy Fox mask, even in the shops. And like you said, Fox definitely wasn't a hero. Quote, and more didn't see him as such either. He said, quote, I don't want to say he's the hero anymore than I really want to say he's the villain.

He's a force. It's funny with fascism or anarchy, yes, that they are the two poles of politics, but neither of them are actually strictly speaking of political system. Fascism is a kind of weird mystical system and anarchy is an attempt to move beyond the need to be a politic and the need to manipulate large masses of people. So I tend to think v is pretty much an allegorical force and idea given human form. And obviously I have a lot of sympathy

with some of this basic ideas, but I think that killing people is wrong. I think he both sized it there quite honestly. Oh, he did, he totally did. The thing is he, he's he's a generate of his generation. He is a kind of ivory tower leftist. Yes. And he wants to he wants to be radical, but he doesn't want to interrupt T. radical, but he doesn't want to interrupt T. Mm-hmm. Just go ahead and put it. And his and his his policy ideas and his, you know, values are very profoundly left. But, you know, he's not

he's not committed to radical action. Or, you know, he's committed to backing radical action, like not everybody has to be out there doing the thing. True. A lot of support for it, but for as loud as he is about it. Um, and again, there's also a need for propagandists, but yeah. Now the mask did become an icon and it was not the icon that it set out to be as so often happens with icons. Anonymous and the Occupy Movement and Project or a larger conspiracy of assholes who wanted to blow up illegally and democratically for the time of elected government. I don't know why that hit me like it did, but conspiracy of assholes just like, there you go. Yeah. And they wanted to do this because they didn't like that their religion wasn't supreme.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But the other groups that were mentioned who adopted it, they were all about the opposite, adoptive the guy Fox mask. Some of them adopted the anarchism that the comic promoted V is having. And as the economy began to tank, the mask starts showing up more and more were activists and activists coalesced, especially in Occupy Wall Street movement, as well as Arab Spring a few years after that. Now by this point, the Guy Fox image, specifically the one from V from V for vendetta, was seen as a signal to popular protest. It was used throughout the early 2010s, internationally getting made getting made illegal in

a number of countries, even Canada banned its presence in a riot or otherwise unruly mob action. And as recently as October of 2019, the Hong Kong protesters started using them in protest against the government's anti-mask laws. Oh wow. So which other countries outlawed them? So there's Canada. I know that, like I said, Hong Kong has... Hong Kong has just banned masks. Yeah. Yeah. So, any time you see France on strike, you'll see some Guy Fox masks. Yeah.

Anytime you see England protesting something the United States does, you'll see a few Guy Fox masks. Okay. There were several at the Capitol. So, boy. Yeah. But the best example that I liked was from July of 2019, when nearly 100 anti-vaxxers went to Comic Con in San Diego. Now these aren't the anti-COVID anti-vaxxers.

These are the OG anti-vaxxers. Oh yeah, the don't get vaccinated for the measles or chickenpox or tea dapper. Yeah. Yeah. They went to Comic Con and wearing Fox masks to protest vaccines, because, you know, what we know about Comic Con is that it is the healthiest place

on Earth. Yeah. I'm sorry, as somebody who's a bendissating or Comic Con, a number of times, that is, that's literally, that's literally laughable. Like, like, like, is a thing to say, my asthma of con crud. Like, like, yeah, I, okay. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. No, it's fine. Oh, God. be for a vaccine. Oh, oh, oh, fuck really? Yeah, here's what these fuck with said. They said, quote, good evening, San Diego, allow me first to apologize

for this interruption. We need to discuss the state of ignorance in this nation and across this globe. Your government scientific and medical community has failed you. They have failed. have failed you are no you are the problem. If you want to talk about ignorance, look in a fucking mirror. Let's see, they have failed to inform you of the very basic truths of vaccines. Oh, I love when people come down. No, they haven't. They have exploded your fear and your ignorance. and this has made it easy for them to strengthen vaccine mandates and eliminate exemptions that have been in place for decades. No, that's actually what you're trying to do. This is the beginning of the end of your ignorance activists right now are flooding the area with easy to digest truths about the vaccines. Armed with science so big your messages so cracked

Science so big and messages so short a rapid glance and the information is absorbed You're literally you're literally telling us how stupid your manifesto is and and that you're just here for the propaganda Yeah, it's success is not the merits of its fucking case. It's that it's short and easy to remember. We shall continue education to demonstration until every man, woman and child has appropriate knowledge of vaccine program. Your government, your media cannot stop our words of truth. Words will always retain their power. That power will enlighten society, giving them the ability to make informed decisions, and the conviction to finally fight to retain their human rights.

Tell me, you failed government and high school biology without telling me you failed government and high school biology without telling me you failed government and high school biology. He goes on. Oh must he? If we do not fight now then there will be nothing left to fight for. Boy was he wrong. This was Comic Con of 2019. Yeah, I know. The last one of the before times. Yeah, and if I recall correctly, Comic Con happens in the mid-summer. Yes, yeah, or early summer, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

July, honest. Yeah. And I think that this is where everyone in this room, I pray you realize how important you are in this historical moment. Moment, we will never be stronger than we are right now. Sadly, you're wrong.

We will never be healthier than we are right now. He was right. You might have been right there. You got, you got one for, I don't know how many. Our children are looking like this, a generation of children. As we've said on the doctor's television show that this is the first generation of children that will not live to be as old as their parents They're right for the wrong reasons for the wrong for the wrong reasons. Yes. Are we going to stand? Are we going to sit down and take it like he couldn't like what fucking improv gamer you playing?

like what fucking improv gamer you playing? Neil, are we gonna Neil sit, stand, who's, wait, if I'm standing, then you have to, come on, no, the time out, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or are we going to stand up and say, this is a historic moment that my forefathers, those from, who does he start with? Oh God. Guy Fox. No, Jefferson. Oh Jesus Christ. All the way to who does he end with? I don't know Roosevelt Martin Luther King. Oh, fuck you.

The moments where people stood up and something inside of them said, I'm going to stand for freedom and I'm going to stand for it now. That is in our DNA. Oh, oh, oh, God. It is pumping through me and I pray that you feel it pumping through you because we must look back.

Okay, so he's having such a good while. Wow. Yeah. Our grandchildren must look back. Okay, so he's having our grandchildren will look back and thank us for having stood up one more time and been the generation that said, quote, we the people of the United States of America stood for freedom, stand for freedom. We will die for freedom today. Well, yeah. Yeah, we will die. You got you got that one. Yeah, we will die because of your concept of freedom. You got that one right. Headbutted the point. And accidentally missed it.

Yeah, how much do you want to bet that behind the guy Fox mask, this guy's complexion was the same fucking color of white. Like the, I was thinking really big actually, but yeah, well, yeah, okay, but the, the extent of privilege, Oh, yeah, involved in, in everything about that rant. Well, that's a preparation. I know, I know.

I, well, no, no, the level of privilege involves the anti-vaccine has changed because I mean it's all it's always been that way but but the the level of privilege involved in number one appropriating an anti-fascist speech to use it against a public health to use it against a public health order is staggering. Then the arrogance, the incredible arrogance to put Jefferson and Martin Luther King in the same breath is like and that you're the Arab parent to the Arab and the and the you're the Arab parent to their common fight which how it just shows you don't know anything about Jefferson like for one thing because yeah um brutally ingenious shitty human being. Um, but, but like, um, Jefferson lived through

multiple disease outbreaks and, and, and was in favor of quarantine and, and, and the population, the word back in, inoxiation, I think it was, It was inoculation. I think they said inoculation, I know Benjamin Franklin, I think used the word vaccination. When he talked about his son dying of smallpox and wishing he had been able to vaccinate him. Yeah. Like, no, the founding fathers were not anti-vax. Don't appropriate them for your stupid ignorant blinker'd cause. And to then like, oh my god, the caucasity to to rope Martin Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And to this is like, do you understand that that he and the other people, the other black people working for

their civil rights, they had dogs sicked on them. They were shot with water cannons. And you're trying to say that you're following in their footsteps with this when you're standing here in a fucking comic book mask in front of a comic book convention and you're trying to argue that this is some kind of civil disobedience action. Like who the fuck are you? Like I don't even know. Oh my God. It's called a very oldation, by the way. Very oldation. Oh, very oldation.

There you go. Yeah. But like, yeah. Ugh. So yeah, some people take the possibly way too seriously. A reporter said that, did I ever tell you about it down in celebration 2015, my brother and I were there there and there was one of those assholes with the megaphone and the giant sign about, you know,

Bernie Hennel, blah blah blah. Yeah, did I have that? No, he and I got pictures with the guy. Nice. Yeah, I went up to him like, dude, can I get your picture? He's like, oh, yeah, absolutely. I said, dude, your commitment to being an asshole, amazing, awesome, amazing cost.

That's not what I want. Oh, goals right there. Hashtag. Hashtag goals. So there was a reporter who was reporting on these people and he said that, quote, a disturbing number of them really do view themselves as a harried freedom fighters defending their children against a totalitarian menace. This is especially worrisome given that I've been seeing more and more in

situation of violence as in this post by anti-vaxxer Larry Cook. In it, by the way, it shows there's a tweet of how a glock works. And these are the same folks who dressed up like Star Wars characters and tried the same shit at Disneyland, which is where an outbreak of measles originated from about six years ago. Quote, coupled with the not-infrequent violent rhetoric of the anti-vaccine movement, seeing how much anti-vaccine

is identified with rebels, heroes, and terrorists fighting despotic regimes or even a dark lord and how they act out those fantasies by cosplaying star wars characters and a character like V worries me and I don't think my concern is unreasonable. Now that was in 2019. Now both the right and the left whack jobs are adopting the symbol as their own. However, a left wing whack job is far less dangerous than a right wing whack job as history has shown us. Yes. Because, of course, they're adopting that symbol because symbols are precisely the thing

that view is striking out against the start with. So why not miss the point that fucking big? Yep. When V for Vendetta came out in comic book form, it was a British comic written about a specifically British sensibility. Alan Moore and David Lloyd saw eventual anarchism as an anecdote to creeping fascism in the face of apathy.

When DC optioned it to a movie with the Warner Brothers in 2006, it was a movie that was about the American War and Terror and the effects of militarism on a civilian society. The changing of the words as meanings figured in much more heavily than did the message of anarchism this time around. And currently that same change is a very important theme in the movie, as is the presence of the camps and the anti-queer emphasis of the fascists in charge of the movie.

Further, the comic book itself is coming back into vogue. According to writer Emily Asher Perrin on TOR, quote, Veefer Vendetta is a film that has managed to grow more poignant over time rather than less, which is an achievement in its own right. She wrote an article a little bit after the Orlando Night Club shooting of 2016. She pointed out a number of things

that the film did right, specifically by taking away its specific Britishness and universalizing some of the overarching themes. So basically, she's like, no, Alan Moore is dead fucking wrong. This movie is really good, specifically because it stopped doing what he wanted it to do. Yeah. She said, quote, the director, James McTig was a quick and interview is to point out that while society, they, while this society they depicted had much in common with the certain American institutions, they were meant to serve as analogs for anywhere with similar practices. He stated explicitly that while the audience might see Fox News in the North Fire Party news stations, BTN, it could easily be Sky News over in the UK or any other numbers of similarly like

minded venues. Or the Russian state run. Yeah, yeah, the Chinese state run media. Yeah, yeah. She also points out how queer centric and queer friendly the film actually is, which in hindsight makes it even more sense given who the Wukowski subs are. Yep. Quote, the Wukowski script is focused even more on the struggle of the queer population

under the Norse fire party, which was starting to see and film like this even 10 years ago, and still is today for being frank. To be fair, giving an audience a crash course in anarchy and how it should oppose fascism, in a story where no one is a definitive hero would have been a tolerator for two hour film. And this to me is what weaving and loyade both got right and more got wrong, even though you know, loyade and weaving also had moneyed interests. The movie had to stray from its original source material so that it would make sense. What a movie does in two hours, a comic book literally has years to unfold, and sacrifices

of content have to be made to maintain tone, and sometimes the universe lies the ideas behind the content in the first place. That's a fair assessment. Yeah. Yeah. Now, even the existential crisis that V creates for EV is less ambiguous in the movie. And it has to be. And it's less a problem now than it was in 2006 because we don't have time to be nice.

We don't have time to dither. We have decisions to make about our national identity because there are midterms coming up. And there's another election coming up. And we just had the pooched anniversary. We have to decide how we're going to live out our personal identity. And if we need to create a crucible to burn away

the bullshit exterior, then the quicker the better, because people are literally gunning for us. Quote, Evie is unable to live honestly to achieve any amount of personal freedom to break away from the painful past. The entire film is about how fear numbs us and how it turns us against one another, how it leads to despair and self-inslavement. That the Waikowski Sibs are transpholk,

does not escape the author's notice either. Nor does it go without analysis of the film. I have a quote here, but it looks like you wanted to say something. No, no, no, I'm just worrying with something here that you can't see on camera. So the possibility of trans themes in No, I'm just worrying with something here that you can't see on camera. It's okay. So the possibility of trans themes in V for vendetta are born out of,

a born out clearly in EVs and V's respective transformations. For EV, a harrowing physical or a deal where she is repeatedly told that she's insignificant and alone leads to an evaluation of consciousness. She comes out the other side of completely different person later later telling V that she ran into an old co-worker who had looked her in the eye and couldn't recognize her. On V's side when Evie tries to remove his mask, he tells her that the flesh underneath the mask, the body that he possesses is not truly him. While this speaks to V's desire to move beyond mortal man and embody an idea, it is also true that his body is something that was taken from him, brutalized and used by the people at

Lark Hill. Having had his physical form reduced to the status of experiment, be no longer identified with his body. More importantly, once he expresses this, even never attempts to remove his mask again, respecting his right to appear as he wishes to be seen. attempts to remove his mask again, respecting his right to appear as he wishes to be seen. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

She wrote that after the Orlando shooting. Yeah. And at that time, the most alarming thing about Donald Trump wasn't that he had won the presidency or fomented an insurrection. But it was that he was actively campaigning based on hate. Quote, I think about the candidate for president who used Orlando as a reason to say, I told you so, to turn us against each other, to feel more powerful, to empower others who feel the same way.

And I think about this film, and the erasure of the victims at Lark Hill, locked up for any difference that then made any difference that made them a threat to the state, two foreign, two brown, two opinionated, two queer. Then I think about the fact that my partner was followed down the street a few days after the shooting by a man who was shouting all about evil lesbians and how on godly people should burn and fires.

I think about the rainbow wristband film is for Americans and for everyone. And the fact that it still didn't contain the themes of the original graphic novel. And I dare you to tell me that it doesn't add her today, that we don't need it, that we shouldn't remember it and learn from it. We need these reminders at this exact moment in time. Do not let your leaders make you afraid of your neighbors.

Do not be complacent in the demonization of others during an action. Do not let your fear of the other of the past of being seen, dictate your actions. Find your voice, act on behalf of those with less power than you, fight. And above all, love. Love your neighbors and your strangers and people who are different from you in every conceivable way. Love, art, and mystery, and ideas. Remember that is the only true triumphant response to hate. So for her, Veefer and Deda, what she was what she called,

a visceral reminder of my own revelation. All wrapped up in a tale about a man wearing a Guy Fox mask who wanted a government, wanted governments to be afraid of their people, who wanted revenge on anyone who would dare hurt others for being different. A tale of a woman who was reborn with a new capacity for love of lack of, for love and a lack of fear. And that was just six years ago. Now, we could add on to that the fact that the camps for kids hasn't been

closed down yet. Yeah. You could add on to that the constant gaslighting over formally agreed upon definitions occurred for the fucking four years. Yep. And that certain powers that were grabbed haven't been given back. Add on to that the Muslim ban that occurred. Add on to that all sorts of totalitarian tendencies that continue. Yeah. And suddenly everything that more was warning us against, everything that he was writing about has become much more prescient. Finally, actually before I get to this final point, was there more that you wanted to add or ask or push on that? I think that the

pre-science involved in the queerness of the film is an interesting note. Because in the comic, LGBT people are rounded up with, you know, as the author that you quoted said, with anybody who was too different. Right. And the very clearly racial fascist, you know, like conformity is everything. And if you don't physically conform and ideologically conform, we're, we in the United States as a dominant culture, the dominant culture of the United States, but is what I mean by that, because

phrasing. But as the, you know, the dominant culture here had moved to a place where in response to the jingoism and the knee jerk racism of the nation's response to 9-11, there could be a tangential mention of Muslims as a victim group. And they could be much more overt about talking about queer folk as a victim group. Oh, yeah. And they could be much more overt about talking about queer folk as a victim group of the government with with Stephen Fry's And then, however, we don't get the anti-black racism of the Norse fire movement or trade. We don't see that. We don't see the anti-foreigner in general racism,

the white supremacy to nutshell at all, the white supremacy of the Norse fire movement is alluded to without ever being acknowledged directly, which I mean you've already pointed out, but I think it's interesting that our awareness as a dominant culture had gotten to a point where there were some of those things that could be directly dealt with even if only for a moment. And then there were other parts that, you know, we're not going to say that out loud. Right. And I think if the film we're going to be made again today. Oh yeah, definitely be hit of thing focus. All of that would be different. Yes. I mean, the the in 2006, we were trying

very hard to still be polite about it. Yeah. And then I mean, that's that's before Eric Garner was killed. This before Ferguson's before a lot of stuff. Yeah. And then you had a massive convulsion of violence against black people by the police. And yeah. And on and on and on. And it seems to have only escalated. So yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I think because it is very much a zeitgeisty film, whatever you would plug into what was the bother at that time on an existential level, not just like. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting that that is something that makes the film. Like if you and I were to sit down and watch it now, it would be remarkably dated. Yes.

Yes. Which is kind of a weakness. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And yet, that's our freaking button butter in here. Yeah, well, this is true. So, you know, there we go. Now, here's a fun fact about the guy Fox masks, right?

For this. Yeah. They're trademarked by Warner Brothers, which is only a time Warner, because of course they are. Right. I mean, you know, come on. Time Warner is one of the largest media conglomerates in the world, very powerful, and every single mask that is sold means that the licensing fee goes to time Warner. Now originally, it was adopted by anonymous to protect their identities and protest the Church of Scientology, specifically that. But it morphed from there as symbols often do.

Quote, it had a chilling effect. There were literally thousands of people standing silently in front of the Church of Scientology wearing the same guy Fox mask, uh, said a woman named Miss Coleman. The photos and the videos that appeared news from protests cemented the mask as a symbol of anonymous. Mm-hm. Quote, with the help of anonymous, the mask has become one of the most popular disguises. And in a small way has added to the $28 billion in revenue

that Time Warner accumulated last year. I think this is written in this article came from 2019. It was the top selling mask on Amazon.com. Yeah, it was such a hot item that people were selling it have only recently learned what its popularity actually stems from. We sell over 100,000 of these masks a year and it's by far the best selling mask that we sell said Howard beige, the executive vice president of Ruby's costume. Okay, sorry, sorry, his last name is actually beige. Yes. I know. Every once in a while you run into a last name you're like wow okay okay okay then yeah right In comparison we usually only sell 5,000 or so of our masks the vendetta mask which sells for about six dollars at many retailers is made in Mexico or China Mr. Bayes said So I have I have a song suddenly showing up in my head.

How do you afford your rock and roll lifestyle? Yeah. You know, and how long will the workers keep building him new ones as long as their Soda cans are red, white, and blue ones. Yep. You know, your chaos won't convert them. Your self-destruction doesn't hurt them like I also think no shelter here by raging against the machine too.

Okay. Yeah. Good one. Good one. Yeah. But yeah, I just love that, you know, after all of a sudden done, the very people they're protesting and the ones that are selling them their masks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For the for the for the identity, uh, identify for the, uh, occupy movement to have a doubt that mask is like, yeah, whoops. Yeah. Yeah. That's a slip up,

guys. Yeah. That's not that's what I would have loved if they'd use sting masks. Oh, there you go. That would have been cool. Yeah. But anyway, so yeah, V from Adeta was 100% overblown for the time that it was in. And that's what made it perfect for the time that it was in. Both in the comic form, in the 80s in Britain, and in the movie form, in the 20 Outs in America. And that is that.

So what have you gleaned? I think what I'm going to carry away from this is the remarkable specificity of time and place that so very much affected like the central thrust of the two works. Yeah. Like, I don't think the original comic could have come out of a different era than Thatcher's Britain. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't I like I don't I don't think I don't think in Late 20s Germany you could have seen that even though Right, you know, you had similar political elements. I don't I don't think you could have seen that I think you're right I think because there wasn't the same level of apathy in 20s Germany And then for the movie, I don't think you would have seen that movie get made if there hadn't been the Patriot Act.

Yeah, no, I agree completely. Just because like the people who were starting to have a reaction to the Patriot Act, that's what this movie was. That's what this movie codified. And without that real world event happening, there would not have been a need for this film. But there was one. And I mean, earlier, I complained about the, you know, as you said, liberal fantasy, kind of kind of nature of the resolution of the ending. But again, when this movie was made, that was the version of that message that people who were upset about

the state of our democracy needed on an emotional level, needed to see. And I think part of the reason I'm disappointed in that ending now is because of what I've lived through since. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, so there's, there's some presentism in my reaction. Well, I think that presentism is, is perfectly acceptable with movies like this because a movie likely from indata, a comic book like V for Vendetta, we're both specifically reacting to a thing that they opposed at that time. That is a success and a failure. Yeah, it just is. You know,

commercially, clearly it's got legs, but they're short. Ethically, you could get a lot more out of it. Funny. Ethically, you could get a lot more out of it. But, you know, at the end of the day, both of these, you know, pieces of media are specifically set against a certain time and place ideology. Yeah. So cool. Hey, are you reading anything? Right now I am not fair enough right now. I'm your hips still. Yeah, and and you know boxes. We don't we don't talk about the office because just the other rooms we've cleared out but the office still So we're working on that so I have not been able to do

much reading right now. Sadly, how about you? Yeah, actually, I'm going to recommend incidents in the life of a slave girl by Harriet Jacobs. Okay. And it is harrowing. It is hard at times harrowing, it is hard at times, painful to read, but it's really, really necessary reading. I strongly recommend reading that. That should be on people's list for the first half of this year. So yeah, working people find you on social media. I can be found on social media at EH Blaylock on the Twitter and EH Blalock on the Instagram. And I'm on the Tiki Tox as Mr. Blalock, where sir can you be found? You know, if you stick to duh harmony, both on Insta and Twitter, two Hs in the middle, then you'll find me. I would say that we have a live show coming up, but

I'm not quite sure when this episode is going to drop. And we canceled the January show as people probably have figured out by now, because it's just not safe. And I'm not going to be a part of that. So, yeah, you said where they could find this collectively. Yeah. I have not said where they can find this collectively, yeah? I have not said where they could find this collectively because I wanted to ask you where you could be found individually first. Yeah, yeah. But we can collectively be found online

at geekhistorytime.com. And at geek history time on the Twitter. So there we go. And also you can find this podcast on Stitcher, Spotify, and the Apple Store. Please subscribe. It costs you nothing. And please rate us and review us. Give us five stars. You know, we deserve and put something pithy in your in your review. I read them all. And finally, of course, tell at least three friends that's still seven fewer friends that you could affect with COVID. So you're doing a double service that way. So please tell about three friends. Yeah. And tell them to enjoy the buffet. So

there you go. Yeah. All right. Well, for key history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s. I'm Keke Kistri if time, I'm Beaming Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock and until next time, keep rolling 20s.