A Geek History of Time - Episode 191 - In a Perfect World Punk Wouldn't Exist Part I

Episode Date: December 31, 2022

You know, Stalin and the Nazis were these welfare state types. One of us is a stand-up comic. Can you tell what it is? Ladies and gentlemen, everyone, brick. Um. But the problem. Oh my god. That's like, I could use that to teach the whole world. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 1.5-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1- This is a history of time where we connect currently to the real world.

My name is head play lot here in the real history of history famous teacher at middle school level here in Northern California. And I had the wonderful fun getting to take my four and a half year old son to a dentist's appointment for the first time since the start of COVID today. And I have to say I have very mixed emotions about the entire thing. He did great. He was a total trooper through the whole thing. He never got anxious or apprehensive during the entire thing. He was fine with the dental hygienist, the dental assistant, you know, examining his mouth and doing all that stuff.

So he did great. It's simultaneously I feel like a failure as a parent because we found out he has the beginnings of four cavities and so we're going to have to double down on the rushing regimen and because we've been dealing, we've been brushing his teeth like every night like it's it's a thing where we've been very good about it and then we find out he has four cavities and personally I didn't develop any cavities until I was an adult I I was blessed with very strong enamel and so he apparently did not inherit that particular trait. And so this is like, wait, he's foreign,

he already has cavities. Oh my God. Oh my God, I'm a failure as a father. I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm wrestling with that. How are you doing? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a high school Latin and US history teacher

up here in Northern California. And I'm Damien Harmony, I'm a high school Latin and US history teacher up here in Northern California. And I'm doing fine. I have children who have at least one of them has had cavities and it's just the bad genetics of having my mouth in their mom's face. Like when you have that much crammed into that little, you're going to have stuff on top of each other and that's a great place for bacteria. So I'm not I'm not don't feel too terribly bad about that. And besides, he gets two sets of teeth. The next said he can be better with. Yeah, I'll take that. the family harmony is fully vaxed, fully boosted as hard as we can. Just in time for RSV to start making its way through all the populations.

God, I love it. That's good times. What a time to be a virus. So, but yeah, we are fully vaxed and boosted. And I'm, I'm quite happy about that. I can breathe a little bit easier about that.

We can even see some family members who don't necessarily vaccinate. And I will be less worried about giving them anything that could kill them. So. Okay, well, that's good. Yeah. So, you know, what we have a guest tonight because there are a few topics that we know next to nothing about. This is true. And I don't feel like doing all that research instead. I call upon people who already know the stuff. Okay, wait, wait, I'm sorry. Stop. You, sir, Mr. 32 pages on, on V you, you don't pages on V 32 pages on Ace of Base. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're right. Yeah, I should, I should remember that. Yeah, Mr. 100 pages of quote notes unquote, a hundred V, you don't want to do that research.

Okay. Well, I don't know where to start on that. Okay, see, that's fair. That's fair. All right, cool. So yeah, by all means, what are we gonna learn about tonight and introduce our guest? Yeah, Jason, actually, what are we going to learn about tonight and introduce our guest? Yeah, Jason, actually, why don't you introduce yourself as best you like and tell us about yourself.

I'm Jason. I am a somewhat of a comedian and a voice actor and a handyman and a brewer and a baker and a candlestick maker. So a Renaissance man. I didn't say it. But you didn't deny it. There we go. So all right, sounds good to me. I'll throw a liturant Renaissance man.

Nice. So Jason, you just a position there. Yeah, yeah, you're in a juxtaposition there. Yeah, that is. So, you know a lot about a thing that we know very little about. And so, you were gracious enough to come on here. And you're going to teach us about punk music, is that correct? Yeah. So, yeah, there's a lot to dive into.

There's a lot of specific genre and some more prominent than others, but yeah, yeah, I know quite a bit about that thing. I spent way too much of my youth being into that. All right. I'm really excited about this. This is going to be cool. Yeah. I know next to nothing about punk because I've never cared that much about music in general. And I know that Ed knows next, nothing about punk because he's a square. Okay, yes, yes, that's fair. That's fair, I'm saying.

Cool. So you have two no-nothings who only know about the history. So. Well, I think I'm trying to a good starting point that everyone probably knows about is like Iggy Pop, right? We are all aware of Iggy Pop, right? He was on Star Trek. Yeah.

He was one of the guys that was hunting down Quark and his band of Ferengi, as I recall. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for the Dominion and Deep Space. Okay, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. He did other stuff. Also a musician, yeah. Yeah, guy in the 70s.

I had a group called Iggy and the Stooges. And arguably actually 1969 was when they put out their breakout album, Raw Power. Okay. And it was kind of before punk rock, but this was a time when pop music of any kind, whether it was rock or easy listening or jazz was dominated by popular produced artists

from corporate record labels. And then guys like Iggy Pop came out in the New York City scene, kind of in the rock and roll scene and just kind of did whatever the fuck they wanted musically. And the whole hippie movement was kind of coming to a wind down and nothing was replacing it. Right. And people like Iggy Pop and, you know, like the sex pistols kind of copied him to, we're just angry and pissed off as a reaction to this hippie culture that they saw as complacent and boring, you know, kind of bourgeois too,

right? Yeah. Just, yeah. And middle class kids who were just dipping their toe in and then they can go get the corporate job. And when you see like, you had bands like Iggy and the Stooges or MC5 in the late 60s and in the 70s, kind of started that spirit of punk rock. And then in the same time in England in the late 70s, you had the economy was in the shitter. And all the young people were pissed off and angry and half of them were destitute or or did crime for a living. And so you had this guy who was a fashion

designer named Malcolm McLaren who was he was trying to combine avant-garde art with fashion and he combined like try to make bondage gear street streetwear. And so he kind of pioneered the punk look. Okay, and we're talking like suspenders or that kind of stripped down look or like like wearing leather bondage cuffs as as clothing you would wear outside. Oh, okay. No, or like skin type plaid pants with straps on them and belts with studs and rings and, you know, spikes and all that kind of stuff. That was all considered sexual fetish gear at the time. Now, then, you said in England? Yeah, in London.

Okay. This guy Malcolm McLaren was running a shop called Sex, and they sold Sex fetish gear as streetwear. That was like his fashion statement. Okay. And he tried to take advantage of like kind of the economy and the youth rebellion going on at the time and formed a band to try to promote his wear. And that was the sex pistols. So the sex pistols were

formed to advertise fashion. Yes. Okay. Okay. See. But now the now on top of this, however, Johnny Rotten was a real person. Malcolm McLaren found him and was like, you, I'm going to put you in this thing I'm doing. Same with, you know, all the guys in the sex pills were rough street ruffians and kids he found. Uh-huh. That he either hired to work for him or he, you know, he, he basically formed the first boy band out of real street kids he found. And Johnny Rotten was a street man. I guess that was exactly. And he took this guy and was like, you know, he, he basically formed the first boy band out of real street kids he found. And Johnny Rotten was a street man. I guess that was exactly. And he took this guy and was like, I can give you a life, basically,

where my sex gear and play in a band. Okay, we're going to need to rewind a few things there. Ed, you know, okay, so hold on. So the sex pistols were a boy band with rabies. Basically, yeah, basically, yeah, what you're saying. Absolutely. My entire worldview just completely got blown up. A like fashion East of found a young street and

artist and was like, I can make some money off of you. And he was like, deal. Okay. So I want to go back to the destitution of the 70s in England because that seems as good a place to start as any You you have the OPEC oil Embargos you've got the oil crisis of 72 73 and at this point you have if I recall correctly Edward Heath and Harold Wilson trade terms Wilson is a labor party, heath is the conservative

and then Wilson comes back and then it's James Callahan who is labor party as well. So you've got this switch through. And it's not working for you. Yeah, it keeps, well, because nothing's working because the entire planet's economy was in the shitter. There's, you know, everybody was suffering. And so are you four years years they're turning over the pillow. Pretty much. And, and, you know, the, the oil issues are a big part of that. But there's

also, you know, this is, this is when this is fully unionized England to at this point. Yes, this is, this is pre-fature. So the unions haven't been, the unions haven't been destroyed yet. This is this is pre-fature. So the unions haven't been the unions haven't been destroyed yet. Right. Um, and so there are very large systemic changes happening to the economy worldwide. Mm-hmm. That nobody has figured out how to adjust for. 70s England was very de-kenzy and like you could pictures of people from the 70s there with dirt on their faces and shit.

Right. Which families and shit. It's fucking wild. Yeah, the squatting was big then. You know, you also had Jamaican independence happens in 62 and Basically from 48 to 71 you see the wind rush generation. They're named after the ship that brought over like 500 kids in 48 or 47 but like within that period of time, you have 500,000 West Indies immigrants of former colonies moving to London for work and all kinds of things. Many of whom did not come necessarily legally, but very few of whom see this is where England's different, very few of whom were kicked out either,

but they were shoved into, you know, tenement housing and public housing and things like that. very few of whom were kicked out either, but they were shoved into, you know, tenement housing and public housing and things like that. And there was a lot of complaints about, you know, they're stressing the NIH and stuff like that. So by the 70s, you have the kids of these people have come of age. They're 16, 17 years old and can't find jobs for the most part. I think this is also Jason Jason, help me out here.

Is this also the time where you start to see like the first skinheads popping up? In England, absolutely. Especially there was a far right, as much as there was a far left movement that was kind of associated with the punk world. There was also kind of interlaced with the punk world. The far right saw the same opportunities and poverty

for recruitment. Sure. And so in the the punk world, the far right saw the same opportunities and poverty for recruitment. Sure. And so in the punk rock world, yeah, you saw some of the skinhead movement coming up, which was also kind of a split movement, because there's a skinhead movement that's a very working class left leaning oriented movement. And then there's the side of it you hear more about that's like a far right neo-Nazi movement, right? But both of those were prominent at the time. But yeah, the far right movement had attempted to infiltrate the punk scene like early on. They kind of they grew together in a kind of a sad way. Okay. Yeah, because I remember I remember reading I forget what it was, but I don't remember the source, but it was essentially

a left-leaning skinhead in England, criticizing the hippies and saying how impracted, no wonder they're such a pain in the ass, basically, they don't know how to work because their hair would get caught in the machines. And then he like rubs his head. And he's like, you know, we do the work here basically. It was kind of cool. And like he's standing there.

And there's at least two young black men with him and a couple other white guys who are like Swadehead skinhead, you know, that very, very short. Yeah. Original skinheads was like a co like a co founded co racial movement. Yeah. Basically when from England's conquering, combining, you know, the culture of Jamaica and the culture of English street rock. Right. You ended up with this basically the skinhead movement. Yeah, there was a, if I remember what I read a while ago, there was a, kind of a reggae influencer involvement in part of that culture. Yeah. Absolutely. Scott, any, you ask any skinhead over over 40. They love, they love old reggae and Scott music.

That's like the roots of the skinhead culture. That's why any real skinhead is, the real skinheads aren't Nazis. Their real skinheads are black guys. Right. We're going to go far back enough. Okay. So you've got civil unrest starting up too. You've got more people doing street demonstrations, you've got the flipping and flopping politically going on, real destabilizing, like making way for old iron pants or self maggy thatcher going on in the background, but musically so you've got avant-garde fascinista exploiting young street anarchists. I'm not going to get over it. Musically, they were trying to copy groups like Iggy Pop and MC5 and the Ramones who came out way before the Sex Pistols. But the Ramones weren't a political group, you know, but New York had sort of a punk scene before it was called punk.

Okay. And what was that in reaction to or? Okay, but the remones weren't a political group, you know, but New York had sort of a punk scene before it was called punk Okay, and what was that in reaction to or I think kind of the same economic world turn You know, there was just this youth culture with no direction people who were you know come in 17 18 years old And we're already aware they had no hope of a future. Okay, you know, they could look at the world and just see what the fuck You know, they you know squatting was big in New York at the time. Yeah. And you know, down in the Bowery of this music scene formed around this bar called CBGB. CBGB. Okay. Yeah. Country blues, country blue grass and blues is what it stands for, I believe. Okay. They ended

up becoming a punk venue. It was a bar that this business inventor named Hilly, Hilly, Hilly Crystal, like Billy Crystal with an age, Hilly Crystal. He bought it because he just wanted to own a bar. He had some inheritance. And then the locals, it was like a heroin neighborhood and weird people wandered in. And finally, local punks started being like,

can we play here? You know weirdo musicians and he was like fine, whatever we'll get anything going sure and it became eventually grew into becoming like the home of punk rock in America was this bar called CBGB's in the Bowery in New York. And they had bands like television started there. The Ramones, Iggy and the Stooges. A lot of like early pre-punk bands that formed kind of the sound for the sex pistols kind of created the look and attitude that became what we kind of moderately know as punk. And a lot of black leather, the lots of metal on things.

Yeah, yeah, like like the remones all wore leather jackets and jeans. You know, that was their thing. But the Sex Pistols All-Wort, like, you know, Johnny Rotten-Wort, like, mismatched plaid and died his hair and spiked it up. And like, you know, the UK kind of invented that plaid and spiky hair look thing that you see. Okay. Green Mohawks, all that stuff, that originated

over the pond. Okay. So it sounds like there's a parallel going on here though. Basically somebody who's looking to make money finds young people who are looking to. I can't quite pin down what they're looking to. I can tell you what they're looking to do. Please, they want to elaborate music, but they don't have a way to learn music proper or to play music proper. So they scrap together what gear they can and copy the music they love as best they can. And it turned into its own original form of music called the punk rock. Okay. Very DIY. Yeah, it was very, it was just these kids of this lost generation in a shitty economic time

that wanted nothing more than to play music like, you know, the crazy famous hippie rockers that came before them, they saw, you know, Hendrix, Sabbath, all this shit, and they were like, man, I can't, I don't know how to do nothing, but I can steal a guitar maybe. And you know, some of these kids got together and gotten a squat house and started playing music together. And that's kind of how you get these punk bands. And then, you know, Malcolm McLaren put one together, you know, with his money and his store and an attempt to be like, I can make this youth culture, this rock and roll rebellion against rock and roll capitalism big. That feels very much like spright in the 90s.

Yeah, the taste of a new generation. Like I was just this one guy. And he considers himself an anarchist the whole time. You know, he was never like, I'm capitalizing in his mind. He was always like, I have the means to help build this thing. I'm platforming. Yeah, he was that was his view on it. Even though he was clearly anyone who worked under him any of the bands he managed, you're like, he ruined us.

The New York dolls are a band that he ruined who were big in New York. Okay. They're drag queen band that played kind of rock and roll early pre punk rock kind of music. And their whole thing was they all dressed like scuzzy women, like not passing drag queens, like they looked like dudes and dresses and makeup and they were rugged as fuck, you know, they were just like, Hey, what's up? How's it going? You know, and, uh, and, you know, but they did their best to look like ladies. And it was a cool thing they did. And he came over from the UK to do fashion shit and saw one of their shows and started managing them and got them to

all dress in like tight red leather and pose as Chinese communists at the time and basically like tank to their like tanked them put out a record with that theme. Then he took some of the fashion he saw and guys like Richard Hell and Iggy Pop from the USA and took it back to the UK and that's kind of when he founded the sex pistols. So he he was going to invest in anarchism. Yes, in order to overcome in order to defeat capitalism in rock and roll. He was going to invest in it. Yeah, in order in order to to create something that would then make him more money that he could then invest. It gets even more fucked up than that. Once the sex pistols got so controversial purposefully destroyed the band in a grandiose way. How do you mean? He um, he sent them. They were banned banned they became banned in England. It wasn't

allowed for them to play anymore after at the Queen Silver Jubilee. Malcolm rented a river boat that went by booking Ham Palace and the sex pistols played their hit God save the Queen as they sailed by on the boat. And everyone was arrested. It was a big to do. And so after that happened they were banned in the UK by the Queen herself, was like, that band is done here. If they play anywhere, it's a crime. And that's the name of an album, right? God save the Queen. Yeah, it was the name of a like a seven-inch record they put out. No, we had that band in the UK, isn't that? That's the name of a Sex Pistols album. Okay, yeah, yeah. There might be a band called that, but that's the name of one of theirols album. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There might be a band called that But that's the name of one of their albums got you and one of their songs and

After that they were banned from playing anywhere in England So they had to go to the US and do a tour there I mean because they were falling apart from drugs and crazy bullshit They fired all their good musicians and favor of people who looked cool. That's how Sid Vicious ended up in the band He couldn't play he's not on the record. They had a different bass player. I forget his name because I'm a dumb dick, but he was the best musician in the band. He was the only one who could play. I forgot his name like everybody else. Paul, Paul something, but he was fucking good. And they kicked him out because he was too into like the Beatles and shit.

And they got Sid Vicious who couldn't play but looked real cool. So slamming on a bass guitar with it turned off on stage. Okay, so the couple of things here, one Sid Vicious is also the name of a pro wrestler who looked really good. Yeah, he looked really good. Couldn't wrestle for a fuck. Like that's a that's a great parallel. Really. Yeah.

And he would regularly get injured just in time for like softball season because he loved playing softball. Like, like he, wow. I mean, but he looks like the prototypical wrestler, like just pecs. Like a truck just. Yeah, Jesus Christ.

I remember saying vicious. Yeah. Oh, I bet because like you're interested in punk too, would have like, yeah, as a kid, I was like, there was like, I was like, wait, what? Yeah. Yeah. And at one point he was said justice,

like, and then he went back to being said vicious. And then psycho said, but not with a P. It was S.Y.C.H.O. And then I get creative. Yeah. It was just, was he a 90s wrestler? Yeah, very much so. Yeah, okay.

All right, that's all. The moment you said, oh yeah, psycho, but not with a pee, like obviously. Gorgeous, like golden locks that are curly as hell, like blonde, fro, mullet. Like it's just, wow. Yeah, all right. All right, so there's Samson.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. So there's Samson. Yeah. Yeah. So there's the obligatory wrestling tie into whatever the topic is. Okay. So I'm still swimming immense to see of detail here. So he ruins bands. Actually, do me a favor. Can you unpack what a street anarchist is? You'd mention that a couple times. Well, I think it depends like the early punk scene in London had a lot of weirdos. It would be a easier way to describe them. Johnny Rotten at the time was like a street anarchist, okay, which is just, you know, his family were squatters. When he was young, he was a dickhead now, but when he was young, he said he didn't see a toothbrush, touch his teeth when he was living with his family.

He only, the only time he saw a toothbrush was in his dad cleaned his boots, growing up. Ed, don't feel bad. His name was Johnny Rotten because his teeth were green and rotten in different colors. Oh, god damn. That's why they called him Johnny Rotten

because his teeth were so fucking gnarly. Oh, god damn. That's why they called him Johnny Rotten because his teeth were so fucking gnarly. Oh my god. By English standards too. Like that. His teeth were literally green. If you could find an old color close up of Johnny Rotten's mouth, there are greens but like mold growing in his mouth.

It's wild. Oh god. He was a straight up streeter, a chin who stole and thieved and lied and like, you know know his family lived in an abandoned tenement building you know. Wow that's okay. Malcolm McLaren caught Johnny stealing clothes in his shop. And he was like you want these you want these shoes Johnny? Come audition for this band I'm putting together and that's how that's how Johnny Rotten became Johnny Rotten. How old was he?

19. I think 19 at the time they started. Yeah. So what you're saying is there's a special place at hell for Malcolm McLaren. Probably yeah, maybe Johnny Rotten now too, but he's got a lot of changes spot out. Yeah, yeah, he's gone through a lot of changes. Yeah. No, he's got a lot of changes. He's got a lot of changes. Yeah, he's got through a lot of changes. Yeah. Okay, so that happens,

but there's a thing that I'm noticing here that seems to be a through line. Young men who are also very much admiring the old music and wanting to emulate it, or at least they're wanting to emulate it. I don't know if they're admiring it, but it doesn't seem like a, well, we're gonna do something bigger, better,

and greater than you did. It's, we wanna learn to play this music, but we don't know how. Yeah, and if you think about it too, at the same time, you've got like, avant-garde art and datasm, and like, iconoclast, like a lot of iconoclast stuff,

surging up in the art scene with Warhol and all that stuff Mm-hmm. So music punk was kind of the musical answer to that too, I think it was You know kind of like well, this is music too. How about that go fuck yourself Okay, you know, it was this the same thing war hall or you know all those artists in that time. We're doing sure they did that with music um and Then the sex pistols did an American tour and imploded from, you know, Sid Vicious's drug problems and Johnny Rotten's ego and all that should, they just imploded. And that was the end of the Sex Pistols. They did an American tour. They were a band for, I think, like 18 months. That's it. Yeah. The Sex Pistols were a band for less than two years. That at least one record.

The Sex Pistols were a band for less than two years. That at least one record. And then what they did spark was a bunch of other bands that took that seriously, the concepts. And so then you've got these bands that are actual practicing anarchists sometimes living in communes, a group called Crask on a started, what's called the anarchoo-Punk movement. Uh-huh.

And they founded a commune and they started their own record label. They were the first band to like, just we like, we're gonna call the factory and press our own records. We'll just figure out what it cost. And they basically took the principles of anarchism and some of the early philosophy from the 1800s

of guys like Bakunin and Nash Yev and actual anarchist thinkers. And we're like, what if the sex pistols meant it? Basically, what's what happened? They didn't. Yeah, they knew that they did. Eventually the sex pistols were kind of exposed is like mostly an assembled joke, even though some of the guys were serious

about it for a short time or whatever. And then, but it inspired people to create a real scene like that. And then you had a growing network of bands that said, we won't play corporate venues. We're gonna, you know, we'll rent VFW halls and we'll rent this place or that place and we'll have our own shows and we'll pay the bands and you can stay at our house and

That's kind of how the punk scene as you know it now developed. Okay. It was then you know that spread across the USA almost at the same time The US had the punk sound first Uh-huh. I think the UK developed the more political side of the mindset because I think that actual poverty there was worse Which is interesting because they had more of a social safety net than we had to yeah side of the mindset because I think that actual poverty there was worse. Which is interesting because they had more of a social safety net than we had too. It's harder to ignore in England what's going on though? Where's an America? You can certainly be like, oh, that's those. That's over the tree. That's over there. Yeah. Yeah. I think part of the difference was the number of people, the percentage

of the population in the UK that was living in publicly funded, you know, because of the post-war consensus. Yes. You know, the, the number of people who were living in council, tenements and, you know, council blocks much bigger. Yeah. Was much, much bigger. As a punk scene, all their early participants was those, right, the kids.

Yeah. Even in these, those kids from those people living in those shitholes growing up. And when the sex pistols came up, they actually was a group called the Bromley contingent, which was from their area. And that air and it was like a group of like 50 punks that were like the original like first punk rock group that was like people feared them. You know, there is like, you know, certain parts of London

where you're like, oh, don't go down there, the punks, they'll harass you, they're acting weird over there. They drink in the street, they don't care. And that's kind of where the whole concept, when you see like 80s movies, you know, like a crew of like 15 punks and they laugh. Like, yeah, and that's which played. Yeah. There's something in the typical old bloom and like fishburner are part of it. Yeah. The first guy's terminator kills or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, that's kind of inspired by that whole scene, the, the

Bromley contingent, like the first group of punk rockers kind of inspired that whole scene. And then you saw that everywhere in the 80s, there were actual groups of punk gangs, right? And like in the Bowery in the 80s and Scotland and Ireland and England in the 80s, and even into the 90s. So, okay, so the Ed,

is this what we talk about like trope codifier Like the sound came from America, but the ones who actually made it a thing Or the the the image came from the sex principles sound came from America, but then people started actually taking it seriously The image is also kind of cohesive in a way too because you've got like the look of the Ramones You know they ripped jeans and leather jackets. Uh-huh. And then you've got the look of like Johnny Rotten or English punk rockers is like, you know, a tight plaid pants and a ripped T shirt that's just like a rag with four holes in

it and a bright green hair. And like, uh, but that's like, that was weird. But that's like, uh, you know, that's those two fashions didn't really, I think that UK style is more well-known and recognizable as punk. More iconic. When you see a guy dressed like a Ramon, you're just like, that guy's a rocker. Right?

Yeah. You know, you see a guy dressed like Johnny Rotten, you're like, that's a punk right there. That dude is a punk. That's the guy that Derserk was asking in turn his music down on the bus. Yeah. I think that they kind of collide too. You see people kind of, I think it's a mixture of both. That is kind of what the current punk look is.

Okay. Okay, so that's, I mean, we're in the 70s still. Like that. You must definitely define the sound as it kind of existed originally, because definitely like Igi and the stuages and the MC5 and like early punk rock was like late the reaction to hippie music you know and the late songs you had those bands coming out they were hard rock that were kind of more aggressive like you know like Igi I want to be your dog and

shit like that you know yeah yeah yeah that shit was the reaction and that kind of defined the sound of punk because even then they were rude and they had the attitude and you know, they weren't love and flower and peace, even the velvet underground. I think is considered like early proto punk, you know, they were, they were dark and kind of mean as compared to like they came as a reaction to the flower power and kind of bashed into it ahead of their time. Also, like, I mean, the Beatles were really big on being silly, and the stones were really big on being high.

And so, and so were the grateful dead, like, punk was kind of against the grandioseness of that rock and roll culture too, like, especially hair metal, I think, what you could describe as the enemy music in rock and roll of punk rock. Oh, you know, it's all about how you, it's all about, you know, your hair and your makeup and your look. And punk is obviously guilty of having a look. Sure. But I think that's, it's not supposed to be too invested in.

I think self-consciously as steer. Like if you see an ad for someone looking for a musician for a hair metal band, the look is part of the list of requirements. Right. You see an ad for someone looking for a musician for a hair metal band. The look is part of the list of requirements. You see an ad for someone looking for a musician for a punk band, it's like, can you handle 12 beers? All right, sorry. You're welcome.

You hang. That's what we need now. That's 30K. Right, you know. Now, you know, we bring up the poverty with poverty normally comes a fair degree of, I'm gonna say mild violence, like, you know, we bring up the poverty with poverty normally comes a fair degree of, I'm going to say mild violence, like, you know, I'll knock you down kind of violence in all forms. Yeah.

I think the lack of the lack of resources kind of just teaches you to be kind of, you keep your, you keep your feathers up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you see a larger degree of, because I'm thinking of like, my dad, my dad was born in 43. I always get the number wrong. I think it was born in 43. And so like he was there for the summer of love in San Francisco, mostly for the drugs. And he would go and see a lot of bands.

And so he was there and he saw the changes. And he told me about people who, you know, because I was, you know, I grew up listening to, you know, hard rock heavy metal. And so we'd see stage diving. And my dad said, oh, that's not stage diving. Stage diving was when people would jump in, jump into the crowd kicking the whole way. Now, is that, that could have just been a band that he saw and it etched into his brain. Or was that kind of a part of it, like the diving off the stage, the... Well, I think one of the cool things about punk, a physical violence in kind of a random

way, like the stage diving and all that, I think is a part of it. And I think the individual can intend to be violent or not. It just depends on the individual. Sure. But yeah, for sure. I think one of the cool things about punk rock is it was the first time that like, the people going to see the bands looked like the people in the bands.

And the bands didn't care if some guy jumped on stage and threw a beer at him, you know, the guy in the band would spit back in the guy's face and keep on playing. Tom. And he wouldn't do that shit, you know. Yeah, I face and keep on playing. Tom. He wouldn't do that shit. You know, you know, you got to see Rod Stewart. Rod Stewart ain't going to do that shit. Rod Stewart's going to stop the show.

Yeah. You know, go back and play on his trains. That's kind of what defined punk rocket that era too was that that whole site of like rock stars being above and better on a pedestal. Mm-hmm. People in the bands at that time were like, fuck all that. If you know the words, get a parents sing with me. You know, like let's throw beer at each other.

You know, like it's like using footage of a punk rock show from the 80s, right? Or at least in a movie, right? Like it's kind of this spirit of, there's almost like a happy dickishness to it. Like flipping off an old school punk band is like clapping. Yeah, that's not, I'm not bullshitting you. Okay.

And between songs everyone's like, yeah. you know, and that's just like a joyful rudeness is the best way I can describe it. Okay. It's totally tolerated at punk shows. Now, some bands don't want you to throw a can of beer at the singer that that's irritating to anybody. But they're sort of like every band kind of has their line. Yeah. and everybody kind of knows it with that group There's a band called the legendary Shaq shakers They're singer would put a fan on a stool facing the crowd and reached out his pants and rip out pubes and throw it into the fan And people would spit on him and throw shit at him and it's just like That's their show

That's their line. And you know, so that's kind of punk rock introduced that spirit to rock and roll was like, we're not elevated gods. We're just right down here with you. We just happen to be up here entertaining you at the moment. Sure. And so punk rock kind of drew a line in the sand against that whole elevated rock star persona. So do you think that do you think, yeah, fuck us kind of attitude you're describing? The puck is, is, yeah, the punkishness of it. No, it's a puckishness. Oh, puckishness.

Yeah, it feels very puck. Yeah. Do you think that's tied to the anarchism of it? Like the actual philosophical anarchism that's there? I think that's just gravity. I think anarchism and the nature of punk and the economic rebellion that it sprung out of are just kind of some punks found anarch,

some punks went to college and we're like, oh, this is us. In this're like, oh, this is us. In this book for 1897, this is us. Okay. I think that's kind of what happened. So on a less, on a less maybe pretentious note, it kind of sounds like there's it's a really big thing in Australia. And I think it's also a thing in working class, British culture is the idea of calling somebody a tall poppy as an insult.

Never heard that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, in Australia, if you look at somebody and say, well, Roy, then you're, I'm not even gonna try the accent. What, if you look at it and say, Oh, yeah, yeah. You're really a tall poppy, aren't you?

You're basically saying your pretentious fuck wit, aren't you? Okay. I love fuck with. That's one of my favorite European colloquialisms, fuck wit, fuck wit. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Fuck with that. Yeah.

Yeah. That's good. But it's like, it's not offensive to any group, but it's also a great way to call someone a fucking idiot. yeah, right? Yeah so but but I I get the sense From what you're describing that it's like In group like everybody on stage and everybody off stage is

Enforcing the don't anybody start thinking you're all that in a bag of chips because is enforcing the, don't anybody start thinking you're all that in a bag of chips. Cause, no, like fuck that, that's not who we are. That's not how, you know, that is not the cultural norm here. That's sort of what, almost inevitably destroyed the original power of the punk community when it was actually kind of politically threatening and it's A-Day, was that it was so insular. Eventually people had their factions

and they were like, oh, you're still wearing leather. None of us eat meat anymore. And, you know, and like things started to become factional and people were more punk than this person and trying to define what punk is. And then it became so insular and like self sustaining in a bad way. It just ate itself. And that's why punk is a former shadow of what it, you know, was in, and it's, and it's

salad days. Sure. Okay. So as I understand it, we're in the 70s. The sex pistols have imploded others are taking it seriously and saying, okay, let's actually, let's actually, let's actually do this. Yeah.

And so that gets us what to the late 70s? I mean, probably late 70s, yeah, late 70s, you've got bands like Crass and subhumans at the UK, which are very hard line, kind of left political bands. And then in America, you've got the same thing with groups like MDC, which stands for millions of dead cops. And like the dead Kennedys would be probably a more example. A lot of people would know.

Right. In their early days, we're considered a part of the anarcho punk movement. Okay. When they were still the live Kennedys. Yeah, yeah. Before all the deaths. Right.

What a great band name to have at that time. Yeah. Like, like, God, just like to play a Ted Kennedy benefit would be great. Yeah, they're down almost round. Like, or to, like, oh my God, did they ever do a show where they like, they emptied out a swimming pool and they played there?

Like, that would just be like, he said, look what almost happened. At that time, at the same time, there was a band from Orange County called Age and Orange in the early 80s, which was pissed off a lot of veterans of about fighting you at a bar age. Right. They were in Vietnam. Yeah. Yeah.

See, you've named like a bunch of bands and I have to confess, I've heard of like three of them. Like, review the podcast. Yeah, I will. I mean, we've got a list going. So, okay, so, and then. And then on top of that, punk, you still also got artists like Blondie. And, you know, artists that are considered part of the more,

because punk was obviously co-opted by pop music, like any music that can sell, that can make a buck is. And not to say I hate any of that music, you know. But you got artists like Blondie and the police and the cars and stuff that kind of self-proclaimed the punk mantle. And kind of did have, you know, they were a little countercultural

But obviously we're just weird pop stars really okay. Yeah, you know, Cindy Lopper like you know They weren't really countercultural. They were just pop stars that scared your mom a little bit right Okay, all right, so I mean that kind of gets you into the 80s where like yeah, yeah Okay. That kind of gets you into the 80s where it like, yeah, yeah, you get thatcher and Reagan there to conservative revolutions. And this is kind of what I was wondering was that like in the 70s, you still see attempts at leftism in international politics as well as just, you know, the UK and in America, you still see hints at it.

I'm not saying, I mean, you still have the bombing campaigns of the groups that I talked about when we talked about V, all those women who ran the bombing campaigns were, they bombed Congress once. But you have like this, this ebbing away of direct action leftists and you've got liberals kind of co-opting and grabbing that up. You've got Jimmy Carter. You've got what's his name, James Callahan, who's a labor party leader and he's not much of anything. And this is where hardcore comes in. Okay.

So they are rubber banding against Reagan and that, you're that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. At the same time, you've got in the 80s, you get the bands like Crasse kind of come to an end, subhumans are still around doing their thing. Some of those bands are still around and pretty good for old guys. Are they still punk or are they just? Oh, yeah, subhumans are like one of my favorite bands.

Their singer still lives the life of an artist punk rocker. That's what he's going to do. In the UK, it's easier. Tenement housing is a little more legal. And it's not as shit-holy if you actually care to take care of your own space. The subhumans are still a real deal punk band. One of a few from the original anarchist punk band. Who one of you from the original like anarchist punk era? Hey Ed, do you remember the window tax? Oh, yeah. Oh, you're looking at your brand new subhuman's t-shirt. Very cool. Ed, do you remember the window tax? Do you remember when that was? Am I a century off? Where? Yeah. Basically, if you owned a

building, a tenement building, they in order to get you pay your taxes, enough taxes, you know, they said per windows that you have in your building. And so they bricked up a whole bunch of families single windows. Yeah, it's just fucking awful. That's the wrong century. That's industrial revolution. I feel like literally the kids in. Yeah.

I feel like English greed is more direct invisible. Well, it's because it's because in England, they're able to point to a rigid class system. It was actually codified centuries. And so they can just say, well, no, we're just better than you are. So fuck you. Um, so they so culturally they can, they can just say, well, no, we're just better than you are. So fuck you. Um, so they so culturally they can they can get away with being that way. Don't you hear all my letter T's more English than you? Yeah.

All right. So, uh, please distinguish for me the the the hardcore punk versus the, uh, the stuff that came before. Well, in the early 80s, you had the beginnings of metal. Okay. And like good punk rockers do, they just want to play the music they heard when they were 12. So you've got these kids in the early 80s that are here in bands like Sabbath and some bands that were kind of like the beginnings of thrash metal that was a bit faster than any other rock and roll. So then you get bands like a minor threat or even the dead Kennedys were kind of considered a hardcore band, Black Flag.

So it's kind of when punk started to sound a little more metal. You started to get those songs with the drums like no effects right because like a later a melodic hardcore punk band and so That's kind of obviously still political the turmoil of the time was sort of the focus of a lot of the music sure Okay, and also you had a lot of a lot of right wing religious right censorship in the 80s Yeah, you know, parent organization and shit like that forming. And yeah, Nancy Reagan, Tipper Gore, do it there.

Need a Bryant to some extent. I mean, she didn't just focus on gay people. It's probably Tipper most famously. Yeah. Yeah. And so punk rock kind of has that to lash out against too. Okay. Even though I think more famous artists caught the brunt of it, twisted sister and NWA and

shit like that. Because they were noticed obviously because they're huge. Frank Zappa. I have a lot to say about that. Punk rock had that to be mad about. And the religious right, the kind of oppression of that and suburbia was kind of becoming a concept in the 80s or attempting to, you know, reganomics and middle class suburbia was attempting to form as the

environment was attempting to destroy it. And how do you mean the economic environment? Oh, they were trying to form this middle class utopia of coldest acts in neighborhoods, mostly fully unaware is that the next 10 years of economy would disassemble that and turn a lot of it into dirt lots and boarded up houses. Right. Because it's not like they didn't have suburbs prior to that. But remember that place you had to play baseball when you were a kid in your neighborhood in the middle of it. It's because your neighborhood was almost failing. And you have that empty plot of hand that they couldn't develop for any reason whatsoever. That was the peak of development. And there was that one spot that that was right before your sim city fails and you think

it's working. Right. We all had a great place to play baseball in the 80s. Yeah. Yeah. I had a building behind where I lived. So I lived in San Francisco. This is before all these neighborhoods got gentrified too. They didn't replace the street signs after a while.

They're like, fuck it. People are just going to keep stealing them. And so you would tell directions by the sex worker on the street. Like that's what you turn left at Leopard'skin. And but why I literally lived in this one area. And they're Victorian houses that got turned into flats. So three story flats. So you rent the entire floor. And which was

fairly working middle class. My dad had a city job. The building behind my house, the fence was almost completely collapsed under the weight of whatever the fuck bush it was there and it made this really cool like little alcova you could go hide in and stuff. Um, and the building behind my house was an abandoned collapsing building that we would regularly go in and like find linoleum and rip it out. Um, so if I die at 70 it's because I was a break dancer at six, because I will have gotten asbestos poisoning. Because of massive thelio. My, yes, but like, we didn't have it a band in lot. We just had a crumbling building that we could like, I mean, it looked like something out of stalling grad, practically. Like you, yeah, walk up to the second floor, based on my God, like, yeah, you know, bad intentions and alcohol bottles. Like it was. Yeah, my the suburban, the part of the suburban

neighborhood I grew up in was it built at the, at the early part of that, of that wave. So I actually had to go to a friends part of the neighborhood to have the really great place to play baseball because he actually ironically, he lived in a bigger, more expensive house than my family did. And it was in his neighborhood where they had the lot you're describing.

It was like, oh, so this is, this is where the wave has stopped. Right. And it's crash down. So yeah. We all had cool, and all the band in space is to play and hang out in our youth. We did. We're amazing.

But now as I'm older, I'm like, oh, that was, that was what got missed at the peak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was an omen of what was to come. Yeah. That was the Harbinger era.

Like, absolutely right. We all had our own little Detroits to play in. Yeah, we were growing up. Well, so we had in my neighborhood, on one side of like, you got the street, and then on one side, you had a bunch of Palestinian kids, and on the other side, you had a bunch of Irish kids, and a few African-American families as well.

And one of the games that we would play is throwing rocks at each other. Well, yeah, like you used to play like. We used to throw dirt, like hard dirt cloths. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We had clay up north in Ohio. Yeah, we would like clay balls were game. But if it was a fucking rock, you're a dick,

you're out, go home, we're gonna kick your ass. Right. Hard cloths of clay game. No, we had like little, like rocks straight up, like looks like crumbled bricks, hardcore, just chuck it in. But we would always grab the, the, the trash can lids. So if you guys hit that's on you, you're not quick enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can tell who grew up in a more urbanized environment. Well, you can tell because of like when my dad would get a raise, we'd move again.

Like, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But okay. So the hardcore movement, um, he says it's, it's borrowing a little bit from metal because metals coming in, um, you know, it kind of gets heavier punk rock gets heavier at that point. Does it get more self consciously political? Like, yes and no, both yes and no.

Okay. Punk developed his self-conscious roots kind of in the late 70s in the UK too with bands like Cras. We had like, you know, a Commune and started community centers and put on shows and stuff. But the 80s definitely found it more widely becoming kind of self-conscious and political but also you found punk bands that were more widely becoming kind of self-conscious and political, but also you found punk bands that were more widely

kind of offensive for the sake of it because the religious right was huge. Yeah, and easy to poke. When you look back on it now that same scene is very offensive to liberal sensibilities in a modern way. Like there's a band called the mentors that describe themselves as rape rock. Oh, dear. And they play in their their purpose is to be offensive. Okay. And in the 80s and the 90s somewhat to they were widely understood as satire attempted to get under your skin, right? Okay. But now, even if you explain that it's that, it's not okay to say those things, you know. So arguably maybe it was never, right? At the time, the punks, even like woke punks, you know, at the time where like this is funny. Sure. You know, they're just trying to piss people off.

Right. But they can't, they can't play anywhere now. and I don't feel bad for them. But there was as much of that kind of shit as there was also very aware. Political punk, they were like record labels started for the sole purpose of like feeding homeless youth and all their shows would go to and record pressings would go like BIO is called better youth organization, I think. I want to say it started in New York or DC, maybe. But it was all like hardcore punk bands and the records that were put out and they funded like youth centers and like try to help get kids off drug. Straight edge became a movement with the hardcore punk scene. Okay. That's where like the term got coined by the band minor threat and like their fans. That's called themselves straight edge.

Is that Henry Rollins and them? No, that's black flag. But Henry Rollins and Ian McKay, Ian McKay, they've been tight buddies their whole careers as punk rockers, gotcha. Am I mixing up Ian McKay with the guy from Fugazino? No, same guy. Okay, it is the same guy.

He said something, minor threat was his original punk band that was a part of the hardcore scene in the 80s. Gotcha. He said something that I relaxed it was, if you band that was a part of the hardcore scene in the 80s. Gotcha. He said something that I relicked, it was if you always go to where things are, everywhere that you come from, it's gonna suck. It was something along those lines.

So in other words, stay where you are and make it better. Make it good. Yeah. So that's kind of one of the ethos of punk rock too, is like some kind of dead shitty cities often have the best underground punk seeds.

That's it. It's just a thing. Like you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll be like a semi famous punk band, you know, that'll make a couple grand on a good show on Merch and the door or whatever in a big city. And they'll be like, Oh, yeah, but we always play bump fuck central Montana. And I like, why? Like because it's a house show with like 400 people. They buy all our shit, you know, they set everything on fire and then we go home in the morning.

Okay, it's the best show of the tour, you know. Okay, so you have, yeah, because Henry Rohn's is he does the speaking tour now like he's yeah, yeah, he kind of evolved. I mean, he's obviously like a punk icon in his own right, but he he evolved to do other things like he gets no money from black flag. Mm-hmm. The guy Deskadina, their main guitarist, screwed everybody else in the band out of any rights to the music and the perpetuity. So everyone else who is in black flag is like a working class, Schmell, except for Henry Rollins, who made his own way as an intellectual like being a speaker and stuff and Des, who tours as black flag, which is basically him playing guitar in a cover band. Okay. Yeah.

All right. Okay. So there was I remember in the 90s and I think it obviously had antecedents earlier, there was a movement in art called the obscenity movement. And then it dovetailed perfectly with like the early internet because you could get like those weird like it's obviously computer graphics because it's a shiny orb and it would turn into a dick. It was rendered pictures of obviously computerized dicks and stuff like that.

And it sounds like there's some footprints that lead back. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think punk takes a lot of roots from the art community. I think it even be fair to say that the art community often makes the first move. Oh, but I think like I don't know how the I'm not I'm not involved in the art community. Sure, but I think pushing sensibilities is always a part of what makes, you know, groundbreaking art. And I think this is a particularly strange time to be pushing sensibilities, because sensibilities are kind of king in a way. Can you unpack that a bit? I know that's more presentest,

but we can get back to the punk in a second. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. People and what upsets them or makes them happier, very foreground of our identities and how we live relative to each other now Or so then I think anytime I can remember. Uh-huh. I'm not to say that it's better good But I think there's a dominant paradigm. Yeah, whether it's an over correction or not or a correction or whatever it is I think hindsight will will better tell us what

What are attitudes now mean in as the whole of the society. I think we might be in a phase of over correction, just a little bit, but not a hurtful one. I think reality kind of has a left-leaning bias. Yeah, I would agree. I don't want you to agree. I think of the guys that I grew up with. It'd be great if this corrects back to a place where things are funny again. Mm-hmm.

But we all respect and love each other. That would be like a happy medium, but we're not there. Yeah. Yeah, because there's too many dipshits out there actually being cruel. Yeah. Yeah. And then like hiding it with what? It's just jokes.

I'll just be a foot like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. I think you seem like you mean it. It was a passionate joke you told and no one laughed. Right. Right. And then you blamed people for being too woe. Like it seems like that was the whole point. Yeah. People had shared and they were joking. If people had shared, you would have just been like, let's go. Right. Yeah. I had friends growing up that Doc Martin's were kind of the thing. Now at one point in my life, I lived in Walnut Creek. And so, like, that sounds nice. I don't know. Nuts are expensive. Yeah.

You could actually, this is the story I've told before, but I think you'll appreciate this. You could tell what wave of Asian immigration we had coming to America based on who owned the donut shop. Because it was always a family of the most recent Asian immigrant group. So like the same shop changed, changed hands. Yeah. And it was, it was real interesting. Like when I got there, it was Vietnamese. And by the time I left, it was la ocean. Like it was just kind of working its way down that peninsula. to me and by the time I left it was lay ocean. Like it was just kind of working its way down that peninsula. Yeah, it's when I first moved to Sacramento. I was I was always I took note of the the high Asian population there. I mentioned it one time. I might have been hanging out with Daniel

Humbanger. We can believe his name if we need to. No, that's fine. But I was like, there's a lot of Asian people in stack. Have you ever noticed that? And he was like, yeah, look at all these railroad tracks. And I was like, oh, yeah, that historically tracks. That's fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

That is exactly. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, the jokes on my district that I teach history now. You know, so there's a lot of explaining Sacramento itself to the kids. All those railroad tracks in northern California and the Asian popular. Yeah. Oh, oh, dumb question. Yeah How come there's so many really good potato farms around here? Oh, George Sheema got it. Yeah, a lot of black people in Kentucky. Yeah

I wonder Yeah, actually a lot of my students wonder. Yeah. Actually, a lot of my students, they're, they're black and they're, their grandparents are from Richmond and they're always very, very interested in finding out why their grandparents are from Richmond. Because I'll talk about the war years and stuff like that. And it was one of the four main port cities for building shit. So, but okay, so back to what was it? The 80s, they're deliberately trying to offend people and at the same time their politics is more than just that. And it does still seem very street level. It's not, it doesn't sound like it's, we're going to change the system from within. It's, we're helping the people who need the help. And the 80s also punk somewhat splinters,

you know, and see those into different camps a little bit. So you've got some people that are, yeah, just offensive rockers, carrying the punk moniker, because they're rude and loud and they look weird. And some of them take it to the point of actually being in their real life personalities, where no one will book the band,

because they're too wild and shit. And then you've got other bands that, you know, they'll only play it if there's not a major corporation involved in the venue. And all the benefits go to coal miners. And no one wears leather at the show. And you know, like it gets. Right, right.

Yeah. So some bands lean real far left and like punk kind of went in several different directions. But at the same time, always away from the norm, I think was like the general. That's the big one. Always away from whatever was supposed to be fine or acceptable or the problem, depending on your angle on. Right.

Right. Okay. So, anti-conventional. Definitely. That's kind of, I think that's the thread that runs through it. You know, all the all the genres of punk and offshoots of it being unconventional. Mm-hmm. And yeah, just anti social almost. Yeah. Okay. No, it's this one except for us. Everyone's fucked up but us. Yeah. If you're in the group, you get it. And if you're not fuck you then. So is this where you see an influx into the the ultra right stuff, though?

Like because I'm just thinking that the 80s was a big time. Yeah. For on the USA. Uh-huh. For the influx of fascist politics and punk rock. And you see some bands come like, bands and groups rising up. Like in the 80ss you had groups like the

national socialist movement and different KKK groups, the NSM, but there they were far right, you know, different groups like that coming up in the 80s and they saw a punk happening and they would go recruit. So you'd see so you see you're disaffected your white. Yeah. And in the 80s, the US punk scene was a mishmash. It was like a melting pot. So you'd see some kid with a swastika carved in his forehead, next to some kid, and an anarchy t-shirt watching a show completely ignoring each other. You know, unless somebody said something stupid.

It was a weird, strange melting pot, especially in like New York City. The hardcore scene, you'd have anarchists and fascists and like the same venues and just kind of, you know, that thing where two people eyeball each other, like just stay the fuck away from me and it's tense. Did did okay, so they. I was gonna say did either of them mean it, but it sounds like they did. I was gonna say did either of them mean it, but it sounds like they did. Yeah, the fascist generally, in kind of the mid 80s to late 80s, the fascists basically got forcibly removed from the world of punk. Like beat now. Yeah, okay. And I would say more in the mid 80s, because there was a lot of violence, punk got a reputation for being rapy and, you know, and out of control drug

e. And that's kind of why straight edge came up. There were kids who would come to show. They see a drunk guy harassing a girl. They beat, they beat his teeth out of his skull. Right. And they say, don't drink kids, you know, and that was kind of where that ethos came from. And some people took it to extremes and got it like kind of fascistly in their own right with it. Pure, yeah. Yeah. but that's again, the splintering in punk rock kinda came out of that too, because then there were people who were like, but you can't tell me not to drink beer.

This is punk rock. Right, yeah. So, you know, and so people developed kinda, there was a lot of ethos building at that time. Oh, interesting. And the 80s, especially in the American punk rock scene, for sure. Okay. And was that fairly universal? I mean, we have a mutual friend, Keith Lowell-Gensen, Sacramento comic author, who wrote punching Nazis and other good ideas.

And I've read it and it's largely an exploration of the punk scene in Sacramento. It's largely an exploration of the punk scene in Sacramento. That seems to be like the main vehicle through it. And, you know, and it's him telling jokes and telling stories because he loves telling stories. But, based on that and other accounts of people in the Sacramento area, the ultra-right shit hung on deeper in Sacramento specifically, than other places. And I know you didn't move to sack at that time.

Yeah, I've heard stories. Yeah. I know a guy who would probably prefer, I didn't mention his name, but he's kind of a big anti-fascist organizer, fighter guy from Sacramento. You probably know who I'm talking about. Because he has his own fight club. He

goes to all the events and he's big in the punk scene back in the day. He came up in Sacramento. He's a little older than I am. And he was talking about how he was, he was tell stories about how they used to beat the shit out of fascists and there were big fights back in the 90s and early 90s in the punk scene in Sacramento. that there was like a far right problem, huge, which was largely confronted, like the punk scene kind of cleansed itself. Sure. I guess in different areas at different times, the far right generally lost their foothold. I think it was in the nature of the whole movement, even though it's lurched and grown and slowed

at different times. I think far right ideology has a weak foothold, even if it gains one in that kind of scenario. Yeah, it does tend to be very front oriented, and so there's not much behind it. Yeah. You know, in the studies of fascism that I've done for Jesus for my career, but also for other episodes of this podcast, they're very front oriented. They're very much, if you don't stand up to them, they'll just keep taking territory. But if you stand up to them for a sustained period of time, they'll do one of two things. One, they'll fold.

Two, they'll accelerate and escalate to the point where people start dying and then the justice system has to get involved instead of just letting them do it, which a lot of them, in the Sacramento scene, a lot of them went away for about 10 years on explosives, charges, guns, charges, and stuff like that. And then the rest became cops up in Roseville and Rancho. Yeah, move to a place where nobody knew them. and stuff like that. And then the rest became cops up in like Roseville and Rancho. Yeah.

Move to a place where nobody knew him. And Citrusites grabbed a little authority they could have. Yep. Now they've got sticks they can do it. Now they, yeah. Yeah, kind of to that same point, a friend of mine who was in the area in that same time period has stories from when he was in high school of hanging out with sharps non racist anti racist skinheads and finding himself in a couple of situations where

if anybody had batted an eyelash the wrong way it would have gotten very violent instantly. Sharps are usually they're reputed for not thinking twice about like the Nazi doesn't have to start shit. Right. I see a guy with a swastik attached to a group of sharps. Like shit. His teeth are forfeit. Yeah. I there was one story of a guy was sitting at the the light rail station. And you know, ding and the doors open. And there And there was a guy who was there who was, you know, a Nazi skinhead type, not doing anything, just waiting to get on the trends. And somebody comes flying out and dex him and just starts beating the shit out of him. It's two bald guys are beating the shit out of each other.

I'm going to get around to you now. Could you imagine being like a root skinhead who's into racial unity and reggae and some dickhead who says he's a part of your group is out there hailing Hitler? I would probably be violent on site too if some dude was out there like being like, I'm a skinhead, Hitler's great and I'd be like, dude, should die. Oh, you picked yourself. I'm just okay. I'm going to keep hitting until the bad idea is leaving.

It's even worse when they say they're you. You know, when they're like, oh, part of this group, right? And I believe this thing clearly, you're not. It's like there are Nazi punk bands. Few and far between, but they exist as a group called screwdriver. That's an A.M. I know. Yeah, screwdriver with a K. Yeah. They make Nazi punk rock music.

But they came up and they came up in the Ace of Base episode. Yep. Yeah. There, there was a lot of Nazi synth bands in Scandinavia in the 90s. It was just the fruit drivers like, uh, It was weird. So just the fruit drivers like that. Like the fruit drivers like bouncy rock and roll punk rock. Yeah. It's terrible awful, terrible Nazi music. Yeah. Jeez.

Oh, I was. Lots of people say their first album is okay. It was before they went full Nazi and it was all just like, working class and glued like rock and roll. Sure. Sure. But then I guess their singer slipped off or slipped and hit his head on a rock or something and or maybe it was always there and he was just like all right, we got our first album in yeah, let's go full blast. Yeah, yeah, we're legitimate now.

Yeah, we got a record deal. They're going to pay for the second one too. Fuck it. for the second one too, fuck it. So was the name Susie Sue came up in my mind? Was she part of that or was she a difference? She was kind of part of the original contingent of punk rockers with like the sex pistols in the clash and that kind of early punk movement. Susie and the banshee's came up in that. If you find old footage, old interviews of like Johnny Rotten on Bill Grundy,

on TV, the old London TV host, and when they're interviewing the sex pistols when they're first coming up and offending people, Susie Sue is there in the background, like they invited a group of punks onto the show to be a spectacle. And they basically interviewed the sex pistols but had like a background at and punks behind them.

And Suzy Sue is there, Adam Ant is there. It's interesting, if you look at it, it's called the Bill Grundy interview with the sex pistols. And a bunch of classic punk rockers that became more like pop icons are also there, just hanging out, it's famous because Bill Grundy, he's like this shitty creepy old man. Sounds like you want that name.

Says something, he's, Su shitty creepy old man. Sounds like he was in that name. Says something. He's so Susan. Susan, Susan looks at him and goes, I've always wanted to meet you, Mr. Grundy, like kind of snidely. And he goes, well, perhaps we can meet after the show. And then that's when the thing goes off the rails and the sex pistols are like, you dirty old fucking bastard, which is like the first time someone's cursed on English TV. Right.

And it was live. So like, he's there like you dirty fucking bastard blah, blah, blah. And that's how the sex pistols. That's where the term the filth and the fury came from. Okay. And their career because the next day after that interview on TV, Bill Grundy lost his job as a TV host and some newspaper article made that the title of the, the whole story. Wow. All right. Yeah. I was, we got back to the late 70s. That was because you said

Susie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I was I was interested. You mentioned Adam and because I remember him from the 80s. Oh, yeah. But he was he was a part of the original punk like it all. The original punk scene. Like he was the original band was called Adam in his package. Okay. And, uh, yeah, pro post scene. And, uh, they were kind of a part of the original London punk Ron crew. Okay.

The reason I bring up Susie Sue is because, uh, there are pictures of her with the Shwastika. I can tell you all about that. Please do. Malcolm McLaren, the guy who founded the sex of the boy band entrepreneur, fashionista, anarchist, weirdo, whatever. He was all about offending people, pushing sensibilities. He was the one who pushed Johnny rotten to wear that swastika with the word destroy written over it t-shirt with Mickey Mouse crucified on it and pink. Okay.

The whole idea was Vivian Westwood designed the shirt. She's a famous designer still to this day. You probably recognize the name a little bit. Yeah. It kind of in a helping vent punk fashion. Recognize Vivian Westwood. Yeah. Avalon guard fashion was her thing.

Okay. Her original idea was that crucifying a pink Mickey Mouse with a pink swastika would be offensive to fascists and Nazis because it was demasculating because it was pink and Mickey and and anyway it wasn't received as it was supposed to be but it was still offensive as shit Johnny Rottenworth a shirt and then the punk movement Malcolm McLaren decided swastika is what we're gonna do to piss off the normies. And so he would hand out swastika arm bands to bands he represented,

which included the sex pistols Suzy Suzy. He was kind of a promoter of the London punk scene. Okay. Like their unofficial look at us. Here's our stuff guy. So he would get the guys in the bands to wear swastika's. He would print them crazy clothes and shit like that with swastikas on it to kind of

piss people off. Right. It was actually a big it all ended at a punk festival that the clash said everyone can use our gear. All you bands come play. It's the rock against racism tour. I think it was a Malcolm McLaren went and handed out swastik arm bands to the sex pistols and all his other people and Adam and Susie Sue. And the clash at the end of their set went, I see Malcolm handing out all this swastika bullshit. Fascists are trying to infiltrate the punk movement. If you wear it, you can't use our gear tonight. And that was the end of swastika's being used in the punk movement. Like at that festival, the clash nipped it in the bud. Nice.

Nice. They were like fascists are trying to join our movement. You're not making it easier. Stop it. You can't use our gear. If you wear it on stage and all the bands were like, well, we don't we don't have gear. Right. They took them off. Like, what are we going to do? There's a lot of like first hand accounts of people who like kept track of like Suzy's two put one on immediately. Johnny Rotten was like, fuck this. And like I like talking about who was like, Oh, sure. And who was like, I don't know. I like it's there's it's kind of a point of controversy to be talked

about in the early punk movement. Cool. Huh. So you've mentioned the clash. And I've heard differing opinions on whether the clash are really punk or not. I think they kind of evolved into I think they sold out. I think they're the first example of a band that started out as like kind of a legitimate part of the punk movement. Okay.

And EMI records came in and was like, Hey, the clash. We really like that rock of the casbock. Can you do more of that? Kind of like what happened, the casbock. And you do more of that. Kinda like what happened to the music voice. I think actually rock, the casbock was after. But yeah, they became marketable and they kinda got bought. Okay. That was sort of, the band Crasse actually has a song about the clash called White Punks on Hope.

And the opening lyric is the, said they said that we were trash, but the name is Crasnott Clash. Started some beef in the early punk community because Crasn played the rock against racism tour. And when the clashes manager came to pay them because the clash organized it, Crasn said, keep the money for the cause.

And the guy ran the tour, said, well, this is the cause. And they were like, well, that's fucked up. We're just a bunch of white guys in a park playing music about how we're not racist. And then we go home. And so crafts started beef with the clash. Uh-huh. As because crafts is arguably the most legitimate anarcho punk band ever. Yeah. As far as like lifestyle goes. Okay. They live in a commune. The guy who founded crafts still lives in the fucking same place.. They live in a commune. The guy who founded Crafts still lives in the fucking same place. He still lives in the commune. You can go sleep on the yard there if you want.

She's Penny Rim-Bod. He's. I've heard that name. Yeah. Okay. He tried to be an anarchist poet in his youth and his brother called him a dime store rim-bod. And so he's like, he took the name penny rim bod. Nice. There's, there's something extra clever about that though. Like, you know, dime store. No, no, penny. Like, rockers have the coolest band guy names ever. Yeah. Ever. Like bar none, Richard Hell. Like, it's, it's, it's not super creative, but shit. Yeah, it works. Yeah. Like, imagine being named dick blood. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, you'd want to change that to Ricky steamboat. But I was in a punk band with a drum machine,

watched that we named Mani fractured, which had some double layers to it. I like that. I like that. That's cool. All right, so the 80s, you see an infiltration, but then you said by the 90s, they pretty much have beaten it out. By the, yeah, by the late 80s, there was, that was it. And punk kind of had sort of a down swings sort of,

it was pretty much dead in the late 80s. There was, you know, it was just kind of a small underground, not a lot of stuff. And then the early 90s saw a revival. Now both what you would call crust punk, crust punk, crust punk and pop punk came up at the same time, which we're kind of polar opposites, almost reactionaries to each other. Okay. So pop punk is when you start seeing bands like green day no effects and offspring right green day

Yeah, liquid 82 Yeah on the opposite of that scale you have crust punk which are bands that are lesser known lesser sort of like nausea Which is when punk took the metal edge and then went? But what if we couldn't afford the studio and we recorded on a place called tape recorder in a squat? I don't know if you ever had a guy in a spiky leather jacket tell you this album rules and then you're like, I can't hear any instruments. That was probably a crust punk album.

Like one of the qualities of crust punk is like a lot of those bands just recorded in their squat houses. When Puck went pop, uh, a reactionary movement to that kind of went, well, we're gonna go, we're gonna go as opposite, we're gonna make this as unlistenable as possible on purpose and make it fully message oriented. Okay. All right. Is that where you get bands like consolidated? I'm not familiar with them. Oh, okay. I'll kick you over a video of them. It's, again, growing up, eating donuts and Walnut Creek,

they came on the radio, you know, had one hit song, and then their whole album is very, very fun. Yes. They have great proofs talking for them. Oh, kid, there's a band called Filth that, they kind of of they kind of Almost what's the word I'm looking for They're a great example of they exemplify almost like the 90s crust punk era

They kind of helped form it kind of more more screaming Tone vocals Like thrash metal, but you don't care if you're in any key. Okay. I'm with the vocals, you know, just rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap. You know, right. That kind of came as the opposite of pop punk. And then you had bands kind of in the middle.

You had really political bands that had very acceptable sounds to your average kid, like anti-flag. Or like that's one we probably were probably getting into stuff. Like you've probably heard of anti-flag. I have heard of them. I had a friend who was in a band. So he had a lot of musical. And they could be compared to like, you know, a blink 182 or something, but they're very political.

You know, they put out their records on their own label. I mean, they donate, yeah, bad religion. You know, they donate a lot of their money to good causes and leftist stuff. But they're also, yeah, a lot of people know who they are. They kind of have some pop sensibility to their music, but still obviously kind of punk. A lot of hardcore punks hate on that music, because you know, they call them sellouts, you know, but I think without that music, you wouldn't have people getting introduced into the more political and like hard-edge punk stuff if there weren't your bad religions and your anti-flags and your offspring and green day. Those bands, you know, those are the first punk bands you hear.

You dip your toes in that stuff and then you're, you know, some other kids, easy in a green day shirt who's a little older than you and goes, oh, you think you like punk rock? Let me show you something. Right. Instead of name, name your favorite five. Yeah. Like where they give me.

It feels very similar. Ed, I don't tell me if this sounds familiar to you. Oh, oh, so you like the MCU? Have you ever read any of the comics? Like kind of, you know, yeah, you're supposed to be like, Oh, you like this movie? Let me give you, I have a graphic novel you should check out. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. That's how you do it. Right. That's what people wonder why they're scenes are so small. They're like, nobody's into punk rock or nobody's into comic books. It's like, because you're all dicks. Yeah. You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, of 18 year olds that are like halfway into what you

like, don't be a dick. Be like, let me show you some cool shit. Right. Today, you get to learn something. Yeah. I sort of got a teenage kid tells me he likes that TV show preacher. I'm going to give him all nine graphic novels. I'm going to go stay right here at this grocery store.

I'm going to go get you a stack of books. Hold on. I love you. I'll be right back. Well, my favorite is always like, how come no girls like it? I'm going to go get you a stack of books. Hold on. I love you. I'll be right back. Well, my favorite is always like, how come no girls like it? It's like, well, the last five who said they liked it,

you gave a pop quiz to like, what do you expect? Like, so what caused it to crash and burn in the late 80s? Was that just the influence of metal and hip hop taking, taking like sucking out all the wind. I think also prosperity, somewhat. Okay. The late 80s kind of, I think we kind of came out of some of the, some of the worst early effects of ergonomics. Yeah. And saw some of the prosperity politics we came into. And I want to say Clinton, but I think that was 90s. Yeah, um, Clinton's 92. But we kind of saw the rise of like that whole prosperity, economic policy. That I think kind of when people are happy, there's less punk rock.

And I think like from 1988 to maybe 1992, like that four, five year block, people were generally just like, these are pretty cool. The bush ears. It was easy to ignore racism. Right. And white people were at all the white people could get jobs and afford their rent. Yeah. That period, you know, the shithole of the 70s ended, the 80s sucked, but things were getting better.

Mm-hmm. And the early 90s were arguably the most prosperous time for working class white people in American history. Very true. Mid-early 90s, I the most prosperous time for working class white people in American history. Very true. Mid-early 90s, I think. Oh, yeah. Like we've done a number of episodes on things that touch on stuff like that because with that prosperity comes the need for culture war for the right to have any say whatsoever because it's the economy stupid, you know, because you had the clintonian and the the Tony Blair kind of like, you know, centrist liberals who are like, no, no, no, why people you got it? We're going to just beat up on black people from time to time.

And by and large, just stay quiet. They're tough. We've made them tough. They have taken right, you know, yeah, but okay. So so it's not's so it's a prosperity It's not so much the musical influences sucking the air out of the middle I think I think I think discontent breeds punk. I think in an ideal world punk rock doesn't exist I think the discontent of society is a part of what what makes it like the punk is actually Australia is

Experiencing almost a punk renaissance right now really we go Australian punk. You'll find a bunch of artists coming up. Amel and the sniffers is a big one right now. They just did a US tour. Okay. Great band. They toured with Bob Villain, which is a group I really love. There's a group called the Chats. But yeah, Australia is having a punk renaissance right now. That's pretty cool. All right. Um, the UK is kind of having They have their own grime hip-hop scene. Right. Okay. That British rap that American people generally hate and think is corny Yeah, um, that's combining with Anarcho punk and they're sampling old anarchist punk rock songs. Yeah, like making political hip-hop now. It's pretty cool Oh, all right, but anyway I'm kind of getting into that shit now. It's pretty cool. Oh, all right.

But anyway, I'm kind of getting into that shit. Now it's interesting. It's almost like the new wave of England's version of what's happening to their version of punk rock. Right. Yeah, I noticed, I noticed about six, seven years ago that there were a lot more Pakistani children of immigrants, usually born, born in the UK, but Pakistani hip-hop artists coming out of England. And I was like, well, that's that's interesting because you know, hell of a parallel. Yeah, not exactly, but it's it's I'm not going to say it's one but it's there. Yeah, like, I mean, the P word, you don't say that in England. Right.

I don't say it. Yeah. So you don't,, you don't shorten that word like it. No, I thought about it. I was like, I don't think I'll even say it. I think I'll call it the P word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In case, in case an English person listens to this. Okay. Well, we're big across the pond. We're number 111. I could probably run through the neighborhood yelling it here. Yeah, everybody be like, what is what? Yeah. Yeah. So talking about the political aspect of punk makes me wonder about, because now I'm trying to remember when the band really got started, but rage against the machine is overtly political. They're first all in 92, their first major, 92. Okay. So we haven't quite gotten to their arrival on the scene, but are they?

We have. Okay. Well, yeah, we kind of have. Yeah, I feel comfortable saying rage against the machine was never considered a punk band. Yeah. Okay. Not to say that they weren't taken seriously as a political force in their own kind of way. But I think they made no quams about being like a mainstream rock and roll act. Okay. You know, they made no they didn't deny it. They didn't, you know, they made certain statements

against corporations and things like that. But you sure shit didn't see them not playing, you know, clear channel radio fest. That's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Whatever company was, I forget what company was running that in 1994, but yeah. Yeah, you know, so they were, they would do things.

I think they were. I think you'd be pressed to find, you could find some punks who would begrudgingly admit they liked rage against the machine. Can you, can you, can you want to go that for me? I don't like like, what is it about the punk identity that would keep them from admitting to liking? There's a certain, there's a certain chip on the shoulder of the punk identity about authenticity.

You know, and if you're making political music for financial gain, then I think you're immediately kind of taken out of the suspect. Yeah, you're immediately sus in the world of punk rock. Okay. Being successful at being yourself, you know, if your punk rock band is wildly offensive and cool and political or whatever

and you just make it as that, there's no shame in that. But if you're just, if you're a band and your goal is to get famous and make a shitload of money as an icon, then you're immediately removed from the part that none of punk. There's nothing wrong, I think, with being successful. Those some would probably argue there is. I think that's just not a very much, I think they're all 15. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't understand that everyone makes a living.

And if you can do it, telling the government to fuck itself in a band, good on you. Yeah. There's a habit that I have is anytime we, there a group of teachers and I we will on occasion send each other things that are subversive to the district's goals. I always make sure we send them in for district mail. So that the district is delivering them to us, which I always like. So, okay, so they come back in the 90s. Now, this is kind of alongside the Grunge movement then too, isn't it? Yeah, for sure. I think the revival of punk also came kind of on the heels of the Grunge movement, but also Nirvana and like bands from their area and genre were considered kind of a part

of the punk scene, you know, in their time and place. Okay. Nirvana, the Melvins, you know, kind of from the same area and scene. We're all kind of considered punk rock bands by a lot of people. They got labeled grunge by like the media, you know, and TV, you know, whoever someone uttered that word. Sure. Because it was, it was being treated as a reaction to heavy metal.

I remember people talking about like, this is the end of Metallica. Yeah. You know, for sure. Grunge kind of had one at some, it's a similar, at least Nirvana, similar punk ethos that like, you know, that the flagrant hair and fashion and the look and the extravagance and, you know, the groupies and all that was bullshit, you know, Kurt Cobain wanted to make music. Right. And you know, Nirvana was definitely, I don't think purposefully, but just by Kurt being an artist first and foremost was a reaction against hair metal for sure. I would consider Nirvana a punk band, but that's probably a very narrow opinion of that of my own. But I mean, there's definitely some Nirvana songs that fit the mold sonically and lyrically.

They just kind of obviously they broke out and got huge. And that was one of the things Kurt definitely struggled with in his own personal life. And his corporate magazine is still suck. Yeah, he didn't like being a big rock star, you know, right? Yeah, he had some issues with it morally. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, I could definitely see them being identified as such like that. That makes yeah a fair amount of sense. You know, just given given the table that you've laid for us. Okay. So here we are in the early 90s now. you know, just given given the table that you've laid for us. Okay. So here we are in the early 90s now It's still I mean in England. It's still the John major years, right? So it's still just a fucking continuation of that your stuff, but yeah, and then you've got you've got bands in the 80s too

That punk also took on more of its metal edge in the UK. Mm-hmm slightly different, but you've got bands like the exploited Which were a little more metal and kind of arguably to this day associated with fascism in a weird way, like they're controversial to this day and the punk scene, the band, the exploited, because they've been known to play the same show as a white power band like a big festival or something or to be friends with certain people who are questionable, but they never really own up to it. And a lot of the older punk rockers and the anarchist scene vouch for them. So there's like a weird, a weird thing like with that band.

There's a lot of people are like, yeah, people like fuck these guys and some people are like, no, no, no, they're cool. Right. They're swing. Their singer has like a swastik a tattoo on his arm, but he got it in like 1978, you know, back when punk was blah, blah, blah, blah. And so there's a lot of controversy around the exploited. Yeah, there's a fair amount of explanation needed kind of. He's also a reputed moron. They're singer. Oh, Oh watch it watch an interview of Wadi Buchan from the exploited and you'll be He's so Scottish and drunk that you can't understand 90% of what he says and 90% is not an exaggeration. You'll watch it and be like I heard kind I'm not gonna cut. Alright. Alright.

Well, being, being Scottish and drunk, that word is inevitable. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like literally, it's just sounds like it sounds like there's like, fucking any news for any of these consul, like, you see how many fucking stabs him? Like, sir, this is Wendy's. So, okay. So, we're in the 90s punk is coming back. Um, but like you said,

it's pop or it's, uh, crust. Right. A crust kind of the 90s had a revival of the squatting scene in the US too. There was a lot of urban decay in the 90s in like middle cities. So you saw kind of a revival of the anarchist punk scene in the US because of that. So there were a lot of disenfranchised, angry youth leaning far left squatting in abandoned buildings. Right. We're able to get a hold of some musical equipment. Yeah. I mean, that's how you've bands like nausea is one of the most famous of that era. Okay. Because they were like reputably, reputably squatters legitimately through most of their whole musical career produced records, you know, participated in social justice events and gave

money to things and stayed homeless, despite making, you know, a couple thousand from a benefit, they'd give all the money, you know, to the miners or whatever. Right., and go back to their Huffle and shoot some dope. Okay. Yeah. The bottery is unfortunately also tightly linked with the world of punk rock. And unfortunately in that it's bad image wise. Unfortunately in that it's inherently like a zero sum game by the end. It's potential limiting. For like what I personally think like the punk movement was or could be capable of. I think a lot of that was potentially limited by unfortunately the

other things that come with being poverty and disenfranchised youth is drug use and escapism. Right. Yeah. That makes that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so and then Green Day hits it really fucking big. Yeah, there's arguably a big four of pop punk. Okay. You've got Green Day, the offspring, no effects and Blink 182, all released breakout albums in 1994, I won't say. Yeah. Yeah. And all those albums got huge. At the time, offspring's album Smash was the most successful, possibly to this day, independent album ever released. Okay. My mom liked them.

No effects is up there too. Okay. As one of the most successful, like fully independent bands ever. But those four albums came out the same year. There are pop punk albums, but they made punk kinda cool again. You know, if you were a high schooler in the mid 90s, there were punk rockers in your high school again. You know,

yeah. And you know, there was a guy with a blue mohawk somewhere. And we had cowboys and goths. Okay. It was, I mean, it was Wallen Creek. So whatever. Yeah. No, I take it back. There was one kid who absolutely, because that was the, the, the age of the skull cap hair. And one of them would do the mohawk out of his skull cap. So yeah, that was the one. But the 90s kind of had a punk revival. And then in reaction to that, I would say to use a not nice word, the purists, yeah, of

punk rock created kind of, you know, that scene got bigger as well. So you had street punk became big, which was sort of a combination of like, oil music, which is like, tough guy street rock and roll from England. Right. And an American punk rock. So it was a little more mid tempo sing songy.

Of course, a gang of uncles that's like, we are the punk's, nobody likes us. You know, it's the course to a song or something? And you know, that shit got real big in the 90s. And yeah, that was it. It was called street punk. And I thought it kind of sucked, honestly, but I liked crust punk, but I thought street punk sucked.

But I'd me. So, okay, I started interrupting you, but this I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here.

I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here.

I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here of the music, like the beat of it, something you can bounce. Sure. You can pogo to it. Well, right. Right. It's kind of bouncy, rock and roll music. Um, is that oil is that kind of at that tempo? You can pogo to oil music. Okay. And this is also contemporaneous with the rave movement, right? At the same

time, I mean, yeah, the rave movement movements pretty old. So, right, arguably, yeah. But I guess being called raves. Yeah, it's kind of in a similar, a similar time. People renting out warehouses in Oakland and San Francisco. Yeah, having illegal drugs parties, you got to meet a guy in a van who will give you the address the day before. Yeah. They had an episode of nine and two and I'll about it.

So, it's 55. Right. Yeah. I remember they had the episode where like the rich kids in 902 and O so all the kids go to a rave and like they had to do an exchange. Like I have, I want to exchange an egg is you have to tell a guy at a liquor store. And of course they go to the wrong fucking place. You know, yeah. Yeah. And then of course it's terrible. And somebody slips, you know, the main character, Jason Priestess character like Somali or something. Yeah. Lisa's been

revisiting 902.0. So I've been by proxy watching some of it. Oh, I'm sorry. And their woke episodes are the worst attempt. Like if you made their episodes about like, wokeness and racism today, people would be like, you're canceled. This is the worst thing. This is the worst attempt. Oh, you're tone deaf, shit, ever. Yeah. We're that rich, like family go where they go after that episode. Tell me that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so they did have to move away. Yeah. Yeah. I think our sending a haul interviewing Luke Perry, obviously who's still alive at the time interviewing Luke Perry and asking like, Hey, you all had a black

family. Where'd they go? He's like, they're on vacation. Which, you know, rich rich neighborhood that actually works. Yeah. Yeah. I could see I could see that very Luke Perry answered you like, they're on vacation. Yeah, I'm not missing a Yeah, yeah, kind of sarcastic, but you can tell yeah, yeah, so all right, so so yeah, uh,

Oh, a music you said it's like street tough punk like yeah, basically a lot of skinheads aligned with the The oil music movement. Oh, skinheads are arguably the jocks of the punk world. Um, someone of them would punch me in the head for saying that, but what's that proof? I always like the, you know, well, I'm gonna kick your ass. Okay, then I'll have to say it with a black eye. Like, you're not gonna change my mind because you're stronger or better fighter than me. Yeah. So, yeah, I kind of introduced that same kind of poverty street culture, but like the toughness is just machismo. It was macho rock and roll for men basically. Oh, okay. Um, kind of loosely aligned with punk, because it was very anti-social, you know,

drinkin, fighting, partyin, and, you know, fuck the coppers, that there was all kind of aligned with that music. So it was punk adjacent. Okay. But also there were a lot of a lot of people in the more left far left side of punk that did not like oi music. It had like beef with the scene and the whole concept. Okay. It was just it was just male machismo and it kind of violent and not very inclusive. Okay. Working class pride to the point of ignorance, you know. Hardhat rioters. Yeah. That kind of and like, you know, just to the point where you're like, you're, you're, we're glad you're working class and you don't take any shit, but you don't have to act like a tough idiot all the time. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

He was just asking for directions. He did not want to fight. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's going on the mid 90s. So you've got this huge explosion the big four like you said um, and and so they're making a big showing that it's commercially viable giving people a pathway to getting back into punk when it was almost on its you know on on its deathbed. That's when you saw warped war coming up and like there the first couple years of the 90s like that revival of those four bands put out that record Warped Shore came up. All of these other bands that sounded like them kind of came up under them. Yeah, and you've got there's you know you could probably name a hundred pop punk bands if you sat down with a pencil. And a topic once on on capital punishment. And I barely hung on like I was clearly losing.

I was gonna lose and then the timer hit and I'm like, oh, thank God, like I was just reaching into my brain for pop punk. Like, and I don't have it. Yeah, and I don't like much music. So for me to be able to do that, like that was that was something. So okay, so you got Warped Tour, you got Lollapalooza, you got, and there's a lot of like it and then oh god, damn, you have a woodstock, don't you? Yeah. Yeah. So, so because of this, you've got this kind

of revival, it's based on pop punk. But because of that, you know, people found pathways into other, you know, more political left-leaning punk that was kind of dead at the time. Okay. And then you got people who got really into that and revived it. And then, and then you get into a whole new movement of, of kind of, that's where crust punk really takes hold and becomes a thing. And then, you know, they're squatting, they're making music, and then it goes to a whole nother level, because the economy goes to shit.

All these properties get bought up, right? You can't really even stay in a band and buildings much anymore in cities, even if you want to. So then you get into what's called folk punk, which is a whole new genre where these kids start hopping trains, and they're playing acoustic instruments.

So you find groups of punk rockers on the corner in New Orleans, playing a washboard, a stand-up base made with a barrel and a rubber band, and you know an acoustic guitar that's cobbled together. And that kind of starts a whole new era of like the punk world that began kind of in the mid-90s. That's actually probably a good logical place for us to break off here is just how I planned it well done. All right. I do have a question for you. I hear this phrase all the time that so punk rock. What does that mean? I think that's just like. I think that's just part of the lexicon, you know, it's just kind of like calling something gangster. Okay. I think it means the same thing. Okay. I think it's just like that's against convention and very cool.

You know, you succeeded despite not having it. Yeah. Okay. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic.

Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authentic. Authent those. Yeah. Yeah. The key history time equivalent of is that is fucked up, but it's not wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

That's much rock, man. Cool. Yeah. What have you gleaned from this so far? A painting of Margaret Thatcher's brain pants spilled against the pavement. That's punk rock. Yeah, that is. That's it.

It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It might be pretty wrong, but it's also right. It's punk rock. Yeah, that is. That's it. That is. Yeah, yeah. It's fucking up. It's not wrong, but it's also right. It's all right. Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah. I'm okay with it. Oddly.

Yeah. Um, what I've, what I've gleaned, I'm still getting over the fact that the sex pistols were a boy band with rabies. Yeah. That's like that's the ongoing thread is lack of convention and kind of being offensive, but good punks have a reason for it. You know, it's not just like, oh, that's rude. And it smells bad. That's, you know, it's like, oh, that route. And it really made me think though. That's, I think where the spirit of good punk lies. Yeah. Okay. So, um, so that's yours. Yeah. That's, that's mine. I'm, I'm, I'm still,

I'm, I'm gone by that. I'm not going to stop being a blown away. You could probably Google sex pistols boy band and find articles with those exact like words. Like, okay. All right. Tons of, there's, I'm sure there's think pieces. Sure. I love it. All right. Well, Ed, what are you reading? I am first off still taking some of my rereading time to I hate saying work on, but that's the verb that comes out. Two gun witch by friend of the show Bishop O'Connell. Okay. But I also got a recommendation from a coworker, uh, fellow teacher, a renegade history of the United States.

I've been wrecked out of that as well. Yeah. And uh, it is, it is a history, um, you know, uh, Howard's in, wrote a people's history of the United States. Right. Um, Thaddeus Russell, uh, has written, uh, Howard's in wrote a people's history of the United States. Right. Thaddeus Russell has written the history of the United States for the people that historians don't like to talk about.

Okay. So, the losers. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's about how- It's about how- It's about how- But like in the historical records, so- Yeah, yeah, in historical sense.

Because they tend to pick on them. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but the, the drinkers, the sex workers, the people on the fringes of society, uh, who, when they win, uh, American history gets better for everybody. Right. Everyone controls Bukowski. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Everyone controls Bukowski. Yeah. Yes. You know, I can actually say, fuck that guy in the ass and feel okay about saying it, given his denotization of sodomy. Yeah. I respect his work as a look into the mind of a shitty old man who's a terrible person, but I don't respect him as a human being. Yeah. That's a meaningful place to draw the line. I think I think I can respect that. So yeah, but it's it's like my co-worker, what she mentioned was talking about

interestingly enough for this podcast, the City of Philadelphia, which has been important for a lot of the history we've talked about. Specifically the ECW franchise, which is the punk rock of professional wrestling. Yeah, and on multiple levels. A lot of ways. Actually, yeah, we're, yeah. So, rock is extremely opposed to the new world order. So, so is the ECO ties into wrestling. Yeah, they came up with the BW the blue world order. Yeah, yeah.

So anyway, yeah, I recommend that highly for anybody who's who's so inclined. How about you? I'm going to recommend spider-getting, Edges spider-getting. It's a collection of Spider-Geddon 1-4 and Superior Octopus number one. It's a graphic novel about Spider-Punk. So Spider-Punk is, I think, hobby brown, hobby brown. And in his universe, it turns out the Spider-Geddon didn't fix everything. So he has to go back. And he is a punk rocker who is a web warrior. So I believe I've seen fan art of spider punk before. Yeah, like web slinging with a mohawk

on his costume. Yeah, he's got like a denim jacket with the sleeves cut off. Yeah, denim best. And yeah, he's got that. So that's that's what I'm going to recommend to folks. How about yourself, Jason? What are you going to recommend for folks? Since I was revisiting it today for this podcast, the day the country died, a history of anarcho punk, 1980 to 1984, the heyday of the movement by Ian Glassberg. It's really good. It's basically sectioned off by band and region. And it kind of covers like the politics and how everybody intertwined and the causes and who was who and how it all happened. And it's not a it's not a fucking around book. No, that's that's got quite a history in it. There's there's some heft to that. Yeah. And look, it's not large print for glasses for a dead fucking book.

Holy cow. I'm over here recommending a comic book. But there's endless pictures of guys who look like characters in Mad Max in this book, which I enjoy. Oh, natural. You know what? We haven't done it. I've said, you know, Mad Max, I I'm gonna have to look into that. Oh.

The 80s anarchist look was very apocalyptic themed. Yeah, the anarcho-monk look, very mad Maxi. But it's inexpensive to achieve both on film and in person. Yeah, so. How'd you get that cool leather jacket like that? Oh, I've had it for 40 years. Yeah. My aunt left it out in the rain and acid rains a thing now. And it's cold.

And I'm poor. I've had to patch it not for style. There's a cool rib jeans. Where can I get some? We can't have mine. They're my only jeans. Right. Literally the only pants I own. I'm lending these to my brother. He's working tomorrow. That's the thus the authenticity argument comes back into play sure. Yeah Cool. All right. Let's see Ed work and people find you if they care to on so I can be found on Tiktok as Mr. underscore Blalock TikTok as Mr. underscore Blalock. For the time being, I can be found on Twitter as EH Blalock. We collectively are on Twitter as Geek History Time.

We are online on the World Wide Web at www.GeekHistoryTime.com. And of course, you're listening to us. So you have found us either on our website or on Stitcher or the Apple Podcast app. I had to thank for a second there. It's been a long day. Wherever you've found us, please take a moment

to subscribe and give us the five star rating that you know we deserve. And how about you, Mr. Harmony? Where can you be found? You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Harmony, two Hs in the middle. You can also find me. Let's see, this will come out. I think you're going to be there in time to see the the December 2nd show. So if you go to Luna's with 10 bucks and a vaccine card that is properly filled out, you can get in to see capital punishment on December 2nd. And if you go to Luna's with 10 bucks and a vaccine card that is properly filled out, you can get in to see capital punishment on December 2nd. And if you miss that one or if

this comes out after that, then also January 6th at Luna's same thing, we are going to have a gathering of our own that is going to be far more positive than January 6th has historically been. So miss capital punishment. Oh, God, we miss having you. So let me know if you're ever up in our neck of the woods. So I had always a good time. Yeah. I threw a match one time, but I did it very gracefully and nobody could tell. That's true. That's true. I thought you were terrible. It was. Yeah. You were there. I had another show. I remember, listen, man, I'm going to throw this thing. I got to go. Is there a place anybody who wants to find you can find you? I know that you did an interview a while back that was pretty compelling. I don't know if you wanted that whole size. Oh, on that soft white underbelly channel. I don't think it's for free on YouTube. I think

you took me and put me on the paid section of his website. So you can't see that for free now. You got to pay like two bucks, but I'm on there on Soft White Underbelly. I have an interview on his website, Dirt the Anarchist. And I'm on Instagram as Dr. Dirt with a K and Doctor because it wasn't taken yet. And that's it. I don't post a lot. I'm going to divorce myself, I think, from social media soon and move to the desert. So smart man. Cool. Well, Jason, thank you so much for being

here. We're going to definitely get you back for another episode because you left us with my finger there. But thanks for joining us. And for Geek history of time. I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Laylock. And until next time, God save the Queen.