A Geek History of Time - Episode 226 - Hulk Hogan Media-Made Media Murderer part V

Episode Date: August 26, 2023

Okay, so there's there there are two possibilities going on here. One, you're you're bringing up a term that I have never heard before. The the other possibility is that this is a term I've heard before, but it involves a language that uses pronunciation that's different from Latin it, and so you have no idea how to say it properly. An intensely 80s post apocalyptic schlock film. Oh, and schlong film. You know, it's been over 20 years, but spoilers. Oh, okay, so the resident Catholic thinking about that we're going for low earth orbit there is no rational here. Leave it on me after and you know I will. They mean it is two o'clock in the fucking morning. I don't think you can

get very much more homosexual panic than that. No which I don't know if that's better. I mean you guys are Catholics you tell me. I'm just kind of excited that like you and producer George Will have something to talk about that basically just means that I can show up and get fed 1.0-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5- This is a history of time. Where we connect Nougatory to the real world. My name is Ed Laylock. I'm a world history and English teacher here in Northern California at the middle school level. And today I had the fun,

fun. Well, you was the word fun of trying to put together a garage sale or not put together. My wife did all the planning, but we tried to carry out a garage sale. And a couple of things, when you actually spread all of your like shit, you need to get rid of out on your front lawn for the whole world to see, inevitably you wind up looking at it going, where did all of this come from? Like how did I wind up accumulating this many,

like barnacles on the ship of my life? Like what, what the hell? Number one, number two, then strangers show up and try to haggle with you over over the amount of money they want to pay for. The shit you don't need. And and that is a really weird release to inhabit because on the one hand, like the logical part of my brain,

every literally every time it happened, every time somebody tried to haggle, the part of my brain was like, you know, I really don't care. I you're doing me a favor by getting rid of it. But like I don't want to just I don't want to just let it go without without getting something for it. Um, and, and then there was another part of my brain that was like, how very dare you, sir? How very dare you? Those are a dollar

a piece. Yeah, I'm not letting you get that for 50 cents fuck you my my stuff. My stuff is not trash, sir Never mind the fact that I'm trying to get rid of it like It was it was it's a bizarre experience on a number of levels And then we we had to we had to pack it all in and bring it in because We actually got the threat of rain in the afternoon kind of kind of out of nowhere, which is weird enough based on where we live. So yeah, it's It's been a very long day and an emotionally very weird one for me. So how about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a US history teacher up here in

Northern California. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. Like on one hand, you're down to one prep. So like, that's the devil's bargain. Just like, yeah, you're gonna do this. Fine. I prep one. like, yeah, you're gonna do this? Fine. I prep one. No, so that's been, I mean, I've been, I don't know, I've been putting ice chips on Latin's mouth for the last year and a half. So now that, you know, we've seen the flat line.

It's a bleak. That's a bleak fucking. I don't know what to tell you. Hey, yeah, I know, I know, I know. But wow. Yeah. So I am a US history teacher, no longer Latin. Latin is gone.

It is another dead language, again. So there's that. And yet in this season, there is also rebirth as of this recording, which I got a feeling people aren't going to hear until August. But as of this recording, which I got a feeling people aren't going to hear until August, but as of this recording, um, my daughter is now 11. I have nobody in the house who's aad you can count on just two hands. Uh, and so for for her 11th birthday, uh, her brother knocked it out of the park again. Last year, he got her the perfect gift, I forget what it is now.

This year he also got her the perfect gift. So like the cool shit that I got her, very cool shit, very cool thing. But he got her essentially a red dragon's head that you mount on the wall and the eyes are LEDs that change color. And so she has come downstairs to tell me several times already today because we mounted it today. She came downstairs to tell me, I jump scared myself again.

Perfect. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it was rad. It was rad. So yeah, that's all the news is fit to print that doesn't involve legal action. So I may need to bug you for the information about where your son found that. Oh sure. Or research for a friend. Uh-huh. Certainly not for the wall of my own office. No, certainly not. No, not at all. I don't see a perfect spot for it right there under the rafter. Yeah. So neither do I. We have a guest with us yet again, because we are not done with this topic. And this topic is not done with us.

Please welcome back to the show soon to be in like six years from now. Dr. Andrew Sutherland, now just known as Andrew Sutherland. Andrew, welcome back. Hi there. Hey, it's a long time no see, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. So what's been happening with me? First, let me introduce myself again. My name is Andrew Sutherland. I am a going into my second year of my PhD program where I St.R.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S.S. And I haven't been physically fit for a while. I felt sore Friday. I felt sore again, but it was fine. My parents came into town and that was a delight.

We got to visit. I showed them around campus where I go to school and they were just very impressed with it all. And then Saturday came around. I was walking my dog once I came home. My back just locked up. I had a massive muscle spasm. Oh, shit.

Yeah, it was my, you could grab my muscle and it was just a solid chunk. And so, yeah. So I could move, but it was incredibly painful. Was this was this lower back, middle back? Lower back, yeah. Lower back, you could feel the pain, mostly on my right side, lower back,

and it would ran down my leg. Well, so I had it for a bit. I could, yeah, yeah, and I could, I went through the day in pain, my parents had a story. Yeah, yeah, and I could I went through the day in pain. My parents were helping me someday morning rolled around and I couldn't get out of bed without like falling to the ground. Luckily, thing, I guess, where instead of like having a bedroom, I made the living room my bedroom and made my bedroom my living room in my apartment. And so I unlocked the door and just waited for my parents to help me. And they took me to the doctor and I got some good pain meds and some steroids, muscle relaxers and stuff like that. And as of, I wanna say Wednesdays when I got felt much better,

where I didn't need to brace myself against the wall, that picked myself up. Wow. So to the audience, drink more water and stretch before you do physical activities. Yeah, specifically, good pleasure. Those him lecturers were absolutely help a lot,

do lunges and lean into the hip part of the lunch. Yeah, my advice. But the overall story is that the overall story is that I am incredibly grateful to my parents who came down to visit and they were excited to or campus and I I felt bad because of the situation, but they have the best time still they their favorite thing to do is help their kids. So that was a plus, you know, it an early, it was an early present for your dad. Well, it was his birthday. Oh, well, there you go. It was his birthday that Sunday. So I can go into more detail, but I don't want to traumatize you like I traumatized my parents there. Sure. Sure. Yeah, it turns out I, I had seasonal back issues. Apparently that's a thing when you get to our age, and to the point where I had to call the security card over to drive me to my car one day, coming home from work. Yeah. I think that there is a differential,

and I do not mean in any way to minimize what you went through because it was the worst thing for you. Oh, no, it was bad. But there is a differential for parents. Like, it doesn't matter that you bet your back hurts. Like you. Oh, you have to walk hunched over. Oh, no, completely. I, here you go. I, you are getting out of bed fully agree with that. I fully agree with that. So I'm, I'm glad for you. That you don't have to muscle through that and, and wreck all the other muscles in the area because they're trying to pull the weight of your leg. Yeah, that's the arc. That's the arc of trouble you get into when you have to keep your head down in power through. But you know, it is funny that you mentioned steroids.

Ah, a silly. I know where we're going. Oh, we're going to talk about Dr. George Zahorian tonight. Oh, see, I thought we were going to, I thought we were going to be talking about baseball. No, no, um, no, I'm talking about a legitimate. I'm out of it. I'm out of it. Professional wrestling. Oh, so, oh, man. It's that I. Wrestling doesn't have any cheating in it. I'll put it that way. Whereas baseball has a lot of cheating and people aren't supposed to throw the game.

Okay, that's fair. Wow. Yeah. Wouldn't we, wouldn't we consider a screw job cheating? Yes. Yes, we would. Yeah, we would have to. We would have to with that being said, screw jobs are notable because they are, they are the deviation from the norm.

Yeah, where is it basically if you get caught cheating, it's one of those like, well, you know, you got caught. It's okay to keep trying, you know, because they keep trying. So, uh, well, so Dr. George Zahorian, who is an osteopath specializing in urology in the 1980s, was originally the main state athletic commission appointed ringside physician. So there's a state appointed athletic commission ringside physician in Pennsylvania. He's the main guy. And he is, because you remember wrestling is K-fame. So you have, you have ringside physicians.

You have an athletic commission where people have to register as wrestlers and pay for their wrestling license and pay for their manager's license as well. Like this is all you have to do this and wrestling has to pay certain taxes, et cetera, et cetera for their live events. There's all kinds of bureaucracy that go into athletic things. And since they're pretending to be true, since they're K-faving it, okay, pay your fucking toll. So you have to have these people. Okay, so hold on. Okay, sorry. Sorry. In the midst of all of that talking about K-fabe, he's an osteopath who specializes in urology urology. So so he's a a bladder and and and and

Dick doctor. Mm-hmm. Who is an osteopath even mad about that. That's that's a good one. Well, but but like osteopathy is defined as a pseudo scientific. Yes, yes it is. So, so like, like you you mentioned, so he's a you're out. The first thing was, you know, you'reologist, I'm like, wait, hold on. He's a ringside doctor. Yes. And he's, and he's not even, uh, what is it? What are the, what are the actual carpenters that work on, to work on broken bones? Um, Caron Carpenters, surgeon. Or thank you. Thank you. It's not even, he's not even orthopedics.

He's, right. He's a, He's a urologist. Yes. And he's not even like a medical, he's an osteopath. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not the first time that we... Like how, how many layers do K-Fabe go through? He's a K-Fabe doctor. Well, no, he isn't actual MD. He's not like Dr. D David Schultz.

Okay. Um, he is an actual doctor who does osteopathy. Um, this is not the first time pencil. Oh, this might, this is not the only time I'll put it that way. That Pennsylvania has put out a MD who went to osteopathy to make lots and lots of money. You might remember one of them ran for Senate last year in Pennsylvania. Yeah. I had forgotten he was an osteopath. Yeah. Well, I mean, he's a cardiologist. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He's a practicing cardiologist who also tells women that their vaginas are self-cleaning ovens. Yep. Yeah. And I will say, like, he is actually a phenomenal cardiologist. He just, he dives into pseudoscience stuff.

Yes. Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm so, I think it's so funny. You brought up the urologist. Sure. My grandfather was in orthopedic surgeon, and his best friend was a urologist, and I'm not lying about this, but his name was Richard Tapper. I just picture the Vermont trees where you put the thing in to get the maple syrup out going into someone's penis. I think you got the vow. Like, um, man, okay, well, that's he never got the joke. That's the funniest part.

How do you not get that joke? No one earth like me. I mean, again, if you're a doctor wing, the first thing you tell people is, oh, there's a whole part of the hospital named after me. Nice. Yeah. My family's from Buffalo. Like, yeah. Most of them are poultry farmers. Like, you know, you just, yeah, my, my, my mother, uh, first job that she had on her own after after leaving her parents house she was a medical transcriptionist. One of the doctors that that she did transcription for was a podat I trust named Dr. Crutchett. Oh wow. So Dr. Oz just to bring it back to Pennsylvania. Dr. Oz, his front is really good cardiology. That's his front for the illegitimate

osteopathy that he does. Dr. George Zahorian was a urologist who was an osteopath. And as early as 1984, he is the main guy who goes to all of the shows. Now, one of the best places to film, if you're in the WWF is it Hershey Pennsylvania. So he's always at those shows. It's just a really good venue for that. What used to be Arco Arena, those are two both really good venues for filming things. So back then, like I said, wrestlers and managers kept KFA by obtaining their licenses. And that means that the promoters would obey athletic commissions in each state to keep K-Fave as well.

The lengths that people went to keep K-Fave is just goddamn ridiculous. We've talked about this before where some people would just grunt pseudo-russian for three years and you know like some people would K-Fave their family. Just it was, yeah, it happened a lot. So, Zahorian was gobsmacked by the wrestlers, which absolutely would impair his judgment. He said, quote, I could not believe that I was sitting in an exam room or sitting at the ring of individuals

that I had admired for years at home and examining these men and being able to talk to them and actually know that they were human beings, that these men were doing a job. The amazing thing that I didn't know was I was growing up when I was growing up was what type of job these men were doing, what the entertainment was, but also that these men were human and these men did hurt and these men did get hurt. And it was amazing what they could do and what they could go through. So he is just star struck. And so I kind of like, I can see how A lead to be lead to see for him. And he very quickly would blur those lines between patient doctor into something far more easily manipulated.

Quote, over the years, these individuals were more than my patients. I considered these men part of my family. I'm going to break in right there. Anytime anybody says that something is family, they're either in recovery. They have chosen not to be around their regular family. They're their their their consign guineaillith family. Or they're trying to stop people from unionizing, or they have a very unhealthy connection to somebody, or they're part of a car ring and their best friends with Vin Diesel. Right. There you go. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And nothing's more important than that. Okay. Back to his quote, I considered these men part of my family. They were so misunderstood. People would make fun of these men.

People would look at them as freaks men from side shows. These individuals were human beings. These individuals lived. They breathed. They had a job to do and their job was entertainment. They had nobody to go to talk to. I love these men. And to this day, I love those men because as the years went on, I was able to find

out what these men were doing. And this is all from testimony from a trial that I haven't gotten to yet. So early on, Zahorian finds that many of these wrestlers were illiterate because they're carnies. It's territory system stuff. It's, I mean, you know, it's kind of like stand-up comedy. People are like, oh my God, I hung out with a few comics and they're really broken. I had no idea. It's like, really? You think that urge is healthy? Like, um, and yeah, he said that they were illiterate and that they actually had no idea what to do with their body. They could make it look beefy.

They could make things look real in the ring. And he said, quote, one man came in to me and showed me a bottle. Doc, can you get this for me? I looked at the bottle, I read the label, I said, what's that label say? For veterinarian use, I said, you see your form there?

You didn't sign it, sign your form. And he put an X. I said, can you write? He says no. I said, can you write? He says no. I said, can you read? He says no. Do you know that this is for veterinarian use? Where did you get that? So, people literally taking horsepills, like, yeah. So from there, oh, go on, Andrew, you're gonna say? I mean, I went to school in a fairly rural area and I knew people who couldn't get to

like a large pharmacy or like a large hospital. So their next best choice was the Trinarian. And as long as you're doing it appropriately, it's it could be fine. You'd also save money on it. But I'm also just thinking about like the other contracts that these guys had to sign from Vince McMahon like. Yeah, like, yeah. Yeah, and like what other things are you sacrificing

in that because you don't know how to read or understand legal mumbo jumbo. Right. You can have a genius for pro wrestling and not know the business end of it for yourself. Exactly. So from there, the Hawaiian begins to prescribe and sell and then mostly just sell antibiotic steroids or antibiotic steroids. Also, opioids also assorted downers to the wrestlers in order to, as he put it,

educate them and take care of these men that he saw as family. Yeah. Again, he was star struck, he was gobsmacked, he saw himself as being able to help them, and he absolutely lost all objectivity right off the bat. And also, he can, you know what, these men that he admires, they admire him for getting them what they need.

And then he can tell himself that he's doing it to keep them safe. Okay, so, just a backtrack. Sure. Anabolic steroids. Opioids. Okay, so just a backtrack. Sure. Annabelle steroids, opioids. Okay, so the steroids make sense because I mean, for fact, say, look at these guys, right? Like, um, and, and just for recovery time and whatever else, that's, that's a huge thing.

Um, and then the opioids make sense because Jesus Christ shits got a hurt. And sometimes, I mean, you're on the road, you need to get asleep. Okay. Etc. See, that's what I was going to get to you is the downers, one getting to sleep. Okay. But also steroids can have, as a side effect, they can have a kind of mania inducing, you know, stimulant characteristic.

So it's like we give you these, we're not giving you these as gopils, but they turn into gopils. Sure, and don't forget the massive amounts of cocaine that everybody was using at that time. Of course, yeah. And it is, yeah. Because it's still late 80s at this point.

Early 80s. Early 80s. Oh, yeah. I rewound. We're rewound a little bit. Yeah. So, yeah, even more so. Yeah.

I mean, you take a bump in the ring. You do a bump in the locker room. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then, and then so, so these guys are just are, yeah. Yeah, okay. And then so these guys are just are drugged up in every conceivable direction. Yeah, and remember, there's no off-season for wrestling,

right? There's no detox time. If you're off, you're not getting paid. So if you're off, you're either going to another territory and working there, you're going overseas and working So if you're off you're either going to another territory and working there. You're going overseas and working a short stint there or you're so injured that you are not drawing any money. And back then it's not like there's any kind of union as we talked about last time. So my favorite email Christmas. Go on. So my first question is, is he getting, how is he getting paid?

Is it like you're working for us? Are you getting paid per prescription? Side money. Yeah. Side money. Yeah. He's getting paid. He's getting paid by the state of the United Commission

to be there. And then while he's there, he's got bags and bags of stuff. OK. So because this is all his testimony from the court case you're going to talk about later. Yes. Are there other testimonies? Matter of fact, there are. Okay. Okay. My favorite wrestler, Brett Hart, greatest wrestler of all time, Bester is. Yes, there was the Bester. We'll agree. He wrote in his memoir that on September 8th, 1985, quote, I was lined up waiting for doctors, a Horean again. One by one, I watched damn near everybody

come out of the Zahorians room with grocery bags full of drugs, even Vince. It often happened that wrestlers brought so many drugs that they couldn't carry them in their suitcases and had to ship them home. No one heated the warning signs though I tried really hard to be moderate. So, okay, rad. Yeah. Grocery bags. Yeah. Okay. So here's my thoughts. I'm speechless. Like, no, just gross, like I'm trying to imagine the number of bottles of pills that you need to be carrying in order to need a fucking grocery bag. Like, okay, yeah, Andrew, go please. So

osteopathy and I would also throw in homeopathy. It kind of gives off a little bit of vibes in certain ways of snake oil salesmen, in certain ways, yeah. Yeah, and so I'm incredibly skeptical about like how his testimony, a doctor's aorian testimony is coming out because like in that sense, he is working with the performers. He could be also presenting himself as a performer.

So we can get that extra side money while also during that trial, for being presented as ways like I had to do this. I'm the victim too. Yeah. Oh, he's he's speaking on not on his defense in this particular case, but how he does in this case will help guide what happens to him when his trial comes up. Perfect, awesome. So all I'm just thinking is like, image management, which we'll talk about a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. So he's absolutely doing that. And that's why I pulled in Vince McMahon or not Vince Brett, Brett Hart's memoir as well. And again, Brett Hart, he wrote a memoir. It doesn't mean that it's a completely verifiable like the Marshall report or something like that. Like it's, it's, you know, it, it is also colored, you know, he's looking through, well,

literally pink colored glasses. But so, you know, minimizing his thing as well as inclined as I am to believe him because he is my favorite. There is also a everybody's lost but me vibe going through the 565 pages of his memoir. Yeah. Now on November 1st that year, so you remember Brett said that September 8th, 1985, he saw this. And it was not an uncommon thing. On November 1st of that year, 30-year-old quick draw, Rick McGraw, who was kind of a jobber to the stars, he recently wrestled Roddy Piper. He died of a heart attack. 30. 30? 30. Yep.

Hurt recalled that earlier that year in January, he had seen that quote, quick draw came out of Zahorian's room carrying his own personal pharmacy. Viles of steroids and an assortment of small boxes containing volume per cassette, Halcyon, speed and his much loved placidils or placidils. He could have used a grocery cart. Art then goes on and said, like everyone else in the line, I handed him some crisp $100 bills and stocked up on 20 vials of testosterone, 20 decadrederabolin, and four bottles of gonadotropin to keep my balls from shrinking, along with several boxes of halcyon so I could sleep and a cache of needles.

That's Bret Hart. If you remember, he's kind of on the smaller side compared to the monsters and behemoths of the early 80s. Yeah. The gonadotropin part is the, like, so, so, like, they knew what the side effects were of the stuff they were using. They were taking drugs specifically to deal with the side effects of this. Like the extent to which that is just a fucked up culture. Yeah. Now this is, this is an 84 85 when they're playing the smaller towns, Hershey and Alan town. Yeah. When the show gets more successful in 86 and 87, fewer of those shows are coming through these places. So the result is that

Zahorian is now shipping them to them via FedEx. And this is what's going to land him in trouble. Okay. And by the way, it is placidil. placidil. Okay. I looked up. Yeah. Short acting sedative and hypnotic drug use to treat insomnia. Well, and again, yeah. So the next part gets a little confusing because the trial started years after these quotes, but a lot of what was happening was happening all at once.

Pennsylvania passed something called the Professional Wrestling Active 1989. And this was to help modernize the laws and regulations surrounding professional wrestling. Other states had similar laws that were outdated as well as they had treated wrestling as though it was a legitimate sport, which promoters gladly played along with, despite the restrictions that it imposed. It was still worth keeping Kaifat. They often would just pass the cost and blame onto the wrestlers anyway, because at their heart, most promoters were carning chiefs. Now having read through the act, I can see why Vince McMahon admitted that pro wrestling wasn't a pure competition that it was sports based entertainment and New Jersey. This got him out from under regulatory bodies and having to pay the various state athletic commission. So that's money in his pocket. So K-fabe for the fans, no K-fabe for the law.

came favoured for the law. So Pennsylvania is amongst a bunch of states that start passing relaxing the regulations because Vince McMahon early on is like, we're sports entertainment, we're not a actual sport, we're not, and he essentially compares them to the Harlem Globetrotters, which I am not a huge fan of Vince McMahon, but I actually agree with that argument. Because the Harlem Globetrotters, they will have gimmicks that they do during their game, but they are also playing a legitimate competitive game four minutes at a time in that as well. So to the point where the senators have actually won twice, but, but, you know, in general,

like we all agree that Harlem Globetrotters, you know who's going to win, you know, it's all for entertainment and stuff like that. It's sports entertainment, though, right? So I agree with that, and I think that you shouldn't, you shouldn't be regulating the Harlem Globe Trotters the same way that you would regulate the NBA. I do tend to agree with that as well. I'm also a big fan of legalizing gambling though, but you have to regulate it. So that leads us to Anita Scales. She is the Titan Sports Director of Compliance and Regulations, which means Titan Sports says grown because they have a director of compliance and regulations.

She was the one that was tasked with hiring quote, people to assist in the writing of the portions of the bill or lobbying that would have affected our business. Now, I still want to believe that Mr Smith can go to Washington, but like people are admitting straight up, like, yeah, we wrote a legislation, and it's like, what the fuck are the legislators for? Yeah, so this essentially means that it's her job to hire the ringside physician per the new acts regulations, and it's a matter of, you don't wanna be considered a sport? Fine, hire your own doctors to oversee it,

those are still gonna be required. You just won't get to go considered a sport? Fine, hire your own doctors to oversee it. Those are still going to be required. You just won't get to go through a state athletic commission now. So she does, right? And she specifically wanted to freeze Zahorian out because, quote, I had heard rumors about him dating back to when he was, when I was working in Greenwich or Greenwich.

Now, a month later, Zahorian starts trying to get back into the loop and she testifies in a trial, quote, he made a number of calls. I got very irritated and started to document them. So I need to point out here again that Anita Scales is the employee of the man who is trying to avoid being found guilty, but also she's testifying for the prosecution. So her testimony needs to be taken with that in mind.

So I think it's called a hostile witness. I could be mixing up terms here. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So she's testifying against her boss, but well, it may or may not be a hostile witness. Okay. A hostile witness, uh, if she was called as a witness by the prosecution, which she would, okay, and if, if she was combative or refusing to provide

information, then the, the rules of questioning are different when when an attorney turns to the judge and said, you know, I'm basically a host of what you get to uncover. Yeah, you get to make them so not so much in this case. I can't speak to that. Yeah. So it also though and having said all that, it does fit with what Zahorian had said about being so star struck. He thought that Hershey, Pennsylvania was his town

and that doing business there without him was a slap in his face given what he thought that he had done for the boys for so many years. So Zahorian goes above Scales's head and appeals to Pat Patterson, who teamed up with Chief J Strongbow, also known as Joe Scarpa because he's playing a native American. He must be Italian.

Pat Patterson and he basically pressure Scales to put Zahorian in play again. Now Scarpa, a man of questionable ethics on a good day, according to scales, quote, said the boys need their candies. I said they could get their damn candies somewhere else. So then yeah, like, is there is there no? I mean, obviously I already know the answer, but I kind of have to say there's no, there's no concern for their actual welfare. No, no, like gone with them. You run them out It's it's all about the bank shittans. Yeah, and now what have you done for me? What are you going to do for me?

Okay, okay, and and for a guy like Scarpa who who had been a ring a ring who had been a wrestler usually Yeah, very popular this is. This is a case of, hey, I did my time. I, you know, when I was in it, this is how we did it. This is just the way the game has played. Yep. Not, I want to make it better for the next generation that comes through. Yeah. Got it.

Again, because think about who goes into these carny jobs. So, people who can't read. Exactly. Now, she goes, scales, sees that that's happening. Here's that from Strongbo, Scarpa, and she goes to two wrestling experts within the company that she trusted. Tony Garea and Gorilla Monsun. Tony G Grier had been a very popular Italian wrestler in the 1970s. He is also a questionable ethics to be perfectly honest. He kind of does shitty things to independent shows. And Gorilla Monsoon beloved by most has a stake or had a stake in the old WWF. And I think he was given a guaranteed job once Vince

bought out his dad and his son, Joey Morella, was a referee. In fact, was the referee for WrestleMania three between Andre and Hogan. His son later dies in a car accident on the road because that's the job. So Guerrilla Monsoun and Tony Guerrilla do not want to take that much of a stand, although they are both against the Horean. And according to scales, Monsoun said, quote, there was no room in the business for people like that, speaking of the Horean. But then he also said, well, kid, I guess you're between a rock and a hard place. speaking of Zahorian, but then he also said, well, kid, I guess you're between a rock and a hard place. So acknowledging that it's bad and not doing much about it, not wanting to get involved. I will grant you a grill them on soon. At that time, son had not yet died. So he's not racked with grief, but he is old. And I can understand wanting to just let your tomatoes grow,

but still, if you think somebody's a piece of shit, it's kind of that, you know, well, let's not just, let's just make sure we don't sit her next to her uncle at Thanksgiving. It's like, no, don't invite your uncle to Thanksgiving. Yeah, it's a hidden stair situation. Yeah. So,

so when the show finally does make it back to Hershey Renee Goulet, another former wrestler who from another territory from the Grand Prix territory in Montreal, he actually if you ever watch old old WF wrestling, there's a guy with like straw colored hair and it looks, I mean, just the worst fucking haircut. It's just all straight and thin. That's Renee Goulet. Um, but anyway, he asked her why there were two physicians at the show, which of course was a shock to scales, because she'd already hired one. But the Horean had come in unannounced at the request of Pat Patterson and Arnold Scotland. Arnold Scotland famously was the one who threw in the towel for Bob Backland against the Iron Sheik, may he rest in power. But also Arnold Scotland was a piece of shit, according to most people who ran into him, who were fans. He had been a manager and prior to that, he'd been a wrestler. He also played pinnacle with Andre a lot. So,

take that for what it is. According to scales, she then goes straight to Linda McMahon expressing her concern and her reasoning and when and what she thought were her duties, scales as duties. Linda McMahon then said, quote, you do what Pat says. Now later in an internal memo, Linda to Linda McMahon, Pat Patterson was backtracking on having Zahorian there owing to the mounting investigation in Pennsylvania.

You were going to say something and I'm going to quote from the actual memo. Oh, no, go ahead and quote before I say anything because I want to hear that. All right. From that memo, quote, I spoke to Vince about the hear that. All right, from that memo. Yeah. Quote. I spoke to Vince about the fact that the state of Pennsylvania is probably going to launch an investigation into the use of an all of all illegal drugs, including steroids. An officer from the State Department mentioned Jack Krill, one of our attorneys, at a recent fundraiser, that his office would be conducting these investigations at the same time as he

told Krill that perhaps it was a bad idea to mention it to him because Krill's firm represents the WWF. In addition, this fellow mentioned that he was aware of Dr. Zahorian and his relationship with the WWF. Although you and I discussed before about continuing to have Zahorian at our live events as the doctor on call, I think that is now not a good idea. Vince agreed and would like for you to call Zahorian to tell him not to come to any more of

our events and to also clue him in on any action that the Justice Department is thinking of taking. On December 26th, the State Athletic Commission is having a small meet and greet session with some of our talent, and I would definitely not want to Now he's, he is trying to make it sound like, well, you know, we talked about him being there. Yeah. In this neutral, like it could have been her saying, right, she wanted him, like completely eliminating any, any indication that he was the one who had said, no, no, keep him there.

The boys need their candies. The boys need their candy. It goes from the boys need their candies too. Oh, doctors are a horean. No, fuck him. Yeah, like weight pro, like, yeah. Okay, you know, and what strikes me in all of that is she went to Linda McMahon and Linda told her to do what Pat says. Pat says.

Yeah. Now Pat does not even have a dotted line, like a line of authority over her in the organ chart. Over who? The scales, scales. Right. He's like talent guy. Yeah, he's a talent guy.

There's no, there's no over, well, I mean, there's kind of overlappin' their departments, but there's not, there's not supposed to be any kind of overlappin' their department. She's supposed to be a legal shrink, right? Right. And, and this is scales a woman going to another woman in the organization and being told by that woman, oh yeah, I know what, what that guy told you to do. Like one of the things that immediately jumps out at me is the Like one of the things that immediately jumps out at me is the Peyton sexism. Yes

Go on is like Fuck like why why do you even have this person working for you? Mm-hmm if you're not going to listen to them Yeah, like so that you can say that you have a department of doing that. Yeah, they're right tokenism for the win. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's really it. I'm like, I mean, Pat Patterson, if I recall, he does, like you said, he's mostly talent, but he has that excellent, a great relationship with Vince. So like, yeah, and Linda.

So it's not really about the positions. In that case, it's about the relationships you have. Yes. Quick question. What year is this, friend? Okay. So I'm quoting a trial from, I want to say 90. But this is about things that happened from 85 and 86 and 87. happened from 85 and 86 and 87. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that law has been established yet. Let's see the one where they they classify wrestling as more entertainment rather than a sport. Yeah, that's not till 89. Okay. Okay. So these are things that are happening

because the trials not about that lobbying broken or anything. The trial is about because Ana ball steroids get made illegal right around that time. And then they're like going back and going, whoa, we need to actually crack down on this shit. And because the audience is sending them through the frickin' mail, we got a pretty solid case there.

Yeah. So. No, I was just trying to figure out the timeline and everything because I felt like we were bouncing around a bit. Yeah. And I'm sorry for that. Like there's no way that I'm good. You know, four years later, they're talking about this. And it's like that trial that they're talking about is seminal, but at the same time, the shit they're talking about, you know, is back away. Now, interestingly, Jack Krill, who is their lawyer, who is representing

because Krill's firm is the one that represents WWF. Do you know who seconded him as Attorney so that Jack Krill and his second, who seconded him to be the attorney for the WWF? I think I know. Yeah. Honestly, Ed's got to be something like Ernie Giuliani. No, no, but you're let me ask closer. Yeah, go for it. Did this person try to run for president? He did. It's Rick Santorum. It is Rick Santorum. Yep. Oh shit. No, no, no, I was wanting to say that when you got that law, like, oh, you want to know

who helped form that law? Think about Santorum. It's in Santorum. Yeah. Like, like eventually had a side effect of sexual intercourse named after him Rick Santorum. Yes. Yeah. Yep. So I was waiting for this. I wanted to know how Ed would react because I knew somehow we were going to be talking about this.

Yeah. because I knew somehow we were going to be talking about this. Yeah. Because when you brought up that law, I knew Rick Santorum was part of it. Yeah. But I wanted, I was hoping Ed didn't. And I'm so happy because it's shocked. That... That fucker.

Really? Yes. Yep. I swear to God, fucking... only the Republican Party does this shit. We're like all the K-fabe just leads into them. Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. I don't want to fuck. Uh-huh.

Residential also ran. Uh-huh. Raced into work. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just I'm going to throw this out there. Yeah. This just goes to show that at their core, so many Republicans are deeply, deeply unserious people. Yeah. Well, they're, they're grifters and carnivores. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Okay. And so they get attracted to that work. Oh, God, I'll flip in mighty. I wow. I okay. Like, okay. Yeah, I should pencilvania. I shouldn't like Giuliani. But yeah, yeah, no, I get thinking Giuliani

because he's a Vinal curve. But yeah, so that's some of the nicest shit anybody said about I know right? Like years. Yeah, he's a Vinal curve. Is that all? No, that's just yeah, well, yeah, but yeah, because the podcast isn't about him this time. So I'll just spare him those words. Yeah, true. All right. So Patterson went on to Warren Zahorian about the upcoming investigation. and went on to Warren Zahorian about the upcoming investigation, like you do, and according to Zahorian's testimony, Patterson asked him to call from a pay phone instead of his own office, because that's totally normal and okay. Quote. That seems legit.

I mean, that's what we all do. Yeah, naturally. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it literally was a set piece in the movie Goodfellas talking about how like paranoid Paulie was, but yeah. So quote, he stated he wanted me to call him from a pay phone. I returned to the hospital, called him from the hospital pay phone.

And during that phone conversation, he had told me that there was an investigation going on of Titan sports. That representatives from Titan or that representatives from Titan sports had been in Washington DC for part of this for some type of a meeting and that a meeting that at that meeting, it was made known to them of the investigation of Titan Sports that my name was brought up, that it was necessary, my name was brought up that I was being investigated. Because of this investigation, that he and Mr. McMahon felt that it was necessary for me to find all information that I had in my presence pertaining to the restless, whether it be their records, telephone numbers, addresses, and destroy the information immediately. They did not want me to have any records whatsoever

of the records, and I was very concerned about this. He said that it may be something that is very minor, but we'd better be careful. And I told him, okay, he then said, look, once this is over, then we will get together and we can continue with our relationship. And that was the end of our conversation of the conversation with him. So totally above board, everything's cool. Okay, so wait. Yeah. So that whole set of statements there that was the Horry and saying about his conversation with Pat Patterson. Okay, the Pat Patterson

said calling from pay phone, we got to talk about this. And then they have that conversation. And like he's giving all of that testimony that like Pat Patterson said, we got to destroy, literally destroy evidence. Yes. Like, on a growth he's saying,

Pat Patterson told me to destroy evidence. Yes. Like, did he, did he get a deal of some kind? I don't know that there was a deal because he gets a lengthy sentence. Well, yeah, because he just admitted and in, you know, under oath testimony that like, oh, yeah, no, I talked to him and he said, yeah, yeah, no, we got to destroy all that. And, you know, like, I want to know who was his life. Like, um, why? I wonder if this was actually the better advice that his lawyer gave him too. Like,

I mean, in a way, could be, I mean, like, hey, I was just taking orders. Right. I was told by my, I'm trying to try to try to get, try to get leniency. And also, hey, I wasn't trying to influence anybody anything. I was told by my try to try to try to get try to get leniency and also hey I wasn't trying to influence anybody anything. I just filled orders. So yes, you've got Yeah, and I shouldn't have done that and I'm sorry But don't think that I bled over out of my lane. That's Pat over there. He did that Yeah, and that kind of goes back to somebody else painting somebody else is the mastermind Yeah, and that kind of goes back to somebody else, painting somebody else is the mastermind.

Yeah, exactly. That goes back, yeah, that goes back all the way to what we were talking about, like the snake oil salesman, right? Mentality is like, I am here to provide a service. Yes. In this case, it's my bosses who are telling me what I need to do. Right. I'm going to put the main manager.

Exactly. Yeah. Right. I'm going to put the main factor. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So eventually one of the guys that Zahorian was dealing to flipped and wore a wire and I couldn't figure out who it was. This then meant that prosecutors would get Zahorian to flip and testify against McMahon in exchange for leniency and tests in sensing. So yes.

Okay. There was. There we go. I had a hard time remembering that because the fucker got 10 years. Like how is that lenient? Well, it's think of the number of counts. Well, and the 10 years got community down to three.

Now that I think about it. And he got to, and he didn't get defraught. He got to keep his fucking license. Are you kidding? No, dead serious. That was part of the deal. So 10 down to three, maybe he was facing 10 and then he only got three. That might have been it. Um, but then yeah, he gets to keep his license. Uh huh.

Damn Pennsylvania. Well, they're trying to get they're trying to go up the train, you know, well, yeah, no, I get, they're trying to go up the train. Well, yeah, no, I get that they're trying to go after the bigger fish, but like grocery bags. I know. Yeah. I know. And like, okay, the sheer think of the amount of liver damage. We're talking about aggregate for like all of these guys. aggregate for like all of these guys. You know, kind of sort of a segue, but I, a while back, I was looking for workout program to do that I can do independently. And one of the ones I found was and I didn't wind up buying it, but I was entranced by the commercials for a while was DDP yoga, Diamond Dallas page. Oh, yeah, yeah. That has actually a lot of people swear by it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah. And one of his, one of his testimonials is from Jake, Jake the snake. Oh, okay. Yeah. Who, who, like, the amount of damage that man, all of them really, but especially that man suffered.

And like you can tell so much of the, you know, joint trouble and the brain trouble and like everything else going on with these guys is the amount of cannibalic steroids and all of the other ship. They were pumping into their bodies Well, and Jake is one of the best examples of the worst like yeah Like if you want to like name three people who've been most damaged by wrestling Jake is always in the top three Yeah, yeah, I can believe that yeah, but you know even even taking into account that he's one of the top three most badly worked over by it,

just imagine like all of those guys, none of them got away scot-free. No. You know, and just the amount of damage that this osteopath fucking dick doctor inflicted on these people. Like, I mean, I understand when I go for the bigger fish, but like, no, this, this pin has a lot more to answer for. And not only that, like you said, he was originally up for 10 years, they cut it down to three.

That is more than generous. They should have still taken away his license. Granted, he did osteopathy, which most likely means if you took his license, he would just go ahead and print off a certificate and say he's still certified. But still, like, that's a credible bullshit there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Wow. So yeah, he gets that. There was even a picture of Zahorian McMahon and Hulk Hogan on Zahorians wall. Of course, of course. Hogan had been on the side. No, but I mean, it's okay. You got them literally arm and arm with you. Hogan had been on the cover of the sports illustrated in April of 85, if you recall, just about a month after the first WrestleMania. So Hogan is a nationally known media star. So when things got hot for the WWF following this Pennsylvania trial in 1991, shortly after

WrestleMania eight in 1992, as a federal case was being built, Hulk Hogan takes a leave of absence from the company. This is why Sid Vicious and let's see was it Sid Vicious? It was I think it was yeah Sid Vicious and Papa Shongo attack Hulk Hogan and Hulk Hogan needs to be saved by the ultimate warrior. And all those things like all of that happens to allow Hogan to leave. And the warrior steps back in. Yeah, so Hogan takes a leave of absence in 92. Now, after only three hours of deliberation, the jury found doctors are wearing guilty of selling steroids to wrestlers who are not his legitimate patients. guilty of selling steroids to wrestlers who were not his legitimate patients. But despite the disgrace doctor taking the fall, Vince McMahon and the WWF also did not emerge on

scathe. On the last day, the lawyer for doctors of the Horeans stated, quote, Vince McMahon and Hulk Hogan brought their, bought their steroids from doctors of Horean. Like straight up set it. And this is when Vince Vincent Hogan had to speak to the media. And remember, most of this is focused on Hogan. So that's all that to get to this. So Hogan did come out on in 1991 on our, on our Cineo Hall a second time. This time with no WWF gear on. And he called the media liars, including our Cineo. And he tried to run the interview similar to what he's been able to do previously. More soft spoken, stronger voice, but still soft spoken.

Arsenio tried to ask several questions, and Hogan just ran over him. And again, this is on a nightly national young audience television talk show. Hogan brought out a picture of himself and his little league team showing how big he was as a kid as evidence of him not being on steroids now. So you look how tall I was. Which means nothing. And honesty. Yeah. I mean, you know, no. But he says, quote, the things I am not is that I'm not a steroid abuser and I do not use steroids. Hogan said that out loud on TV. I watched the interview. He then said that he wasn't like Lyle Alzato.

He mentioned that he had used steroids to avoid surgery when he won the championship. Hogan refused to confirm or deny this. Aorian was his doctor for that time. Hogan refused to confirm or deny this, a Horean was his doctor for that time. He did get in, he did get in his promo about training, saying your prayers, eating your vitamins and believing in himself just before the commercial. It's just fucking unbelievable. Like how, how well, and it's wild

because Hogan comes off looking terrible for this too. He really does. because Hogan comes off looking terrible for this too. He really does. And a lot of people said, you know what? You could have said was yes, I did, found that it was bad for my body and I stopped about two, three years ago. And I'm really sorry. And that could have been it,

but instead after the commercial break, Arsenio straight up asks him who else was on steroids and Hogan dodges and then he promotes Vince McMahon as having a new drug policy. And he mentioned that WWE was, he mentions WWE in the first person plural. He says we, I and the WWE F and Vince McMahon, we. And he dragged, he then drags Mike Tyson specifically boxing baseball basketball and football

Like saying how how gasped up all of them are and then He drags superstar Billy Graham and Bruno Sam Martino is being hypocrites that they had made so much money and they had obviously nobody gets that strong just working out and he's absolutely right about a superstar Billy Graham. He was one of the first ones to successfully build a career on steroids. Billy Graham admitted that for plenty of years after that. And he he drags the two of them calls them hypocrites. And then he finished with like a PSA for the kids to stay away from class three drugs, which oddly specific. A little bit. Yeah. And then quote, WWF and Hulk Hogan were a bunch of leaders, not a bunch of followers.

WF and Hulk Hogan were a bunch of leaders, not a bunch of followers. Okay, there was. Yeah. And then our sinew asked Hulk what he thought of the doctors prescribing the drugs, calling them pushers and Hulk tried to straddle the fence. And he refused to actually call the drug, the drug doctors dealers. And then incidentally in his own autobiography later, Hulk Hogan would cite this appearance and the lying that he did here as the biggest regret of his life, which is weird considering we still haven't touched on post-Amania.

So then because it's 1992, guess who he compares himself to? Bill Clinton. You're close. Jesus Thomas. Claren't. You're a black man in front of me. I'm going to think about another black man like. Because people, because people accuse Clarence Thomas of smoking pot in college possibly. So he's saying, yeah, I'm a little like Clarence Thomas, you know, when they accused him of smoking pot in college, this statement does not air well in age well in any way. No. It didn't it didn't it didn't do well in the present of in its own Yeah, contemporaneously. Yeah. Yeah. No. Hogan then said on national. He then said on national TV that since he was a

patient of Dr. Zahorians, he was painted as being a part of the same scandal. And then he went on to claim that the federal judge said that Hogan didn't have to testify because there's no evidence that he was a part of it. In truth, the WWF lawyer at the time, Jerry McDivitt busted his ass to make sure that Hogan got excused from testifying so that while the WWF and Vince McMahon may burn to the ground, a very real concern for Vince McMahon. McMahon was so convinced and so concerned that he brought in Jerry Jarrett to run the

WWF. And in case he had to go to jail, MacDivitt felt that while all that may happen, Hogan would have been protected by doctor patient relationship with doctors of Horyan since he consulted with doctors of Horyan about various medical issues involving him and his wife having children. So he shielded him talking about fertility. Yeah. And again, I'm pointing out there are some things that you need to hear here that I want you to put pins in. Number one, he compared himself to a black man specifically. He compared himself to a black man specifically. Yeah. Number two, his penis is not being directly mentioned here, but how he plans to use it

to produce sperm and release that sperm inside of his wife's vagina is definitely a thing that we need to remind ourselves of later. And then this idea of confidentiality. Again, absolutely, you do get doctor patient confidentiality, but I don't think that that's not actionable. It's not quite how it works. No. So yeah, he's got a doctor patient relationship because he's he and his wife are trying to have kids. So McDivitt refraises it and says to the judge that the government has no compelling reason

to do this to Hulk Hogan, because it would compromise Hulk Hogan's medical privacy rights to have to get on a witness stand and explain why he did what he did. It would just serve to victimize somebody who had not committed any crimes. And this worked. Hogan did not have to crimes. And this worked.

Hogan did not have to testify much to the sugar and others who saw what was really happening like sports columnist Phil Mushnik of the New York Post. Now I will say this, I cannot stand Phil Mushnik of the New York Post. He is a piece of shit allegedly. The stuff that he wrote about Brian Pilman's death, the way that he, I mean, he's fucking from the New York Post. But in this instance, he was 100% right. He said that Hulk Hogan was dismissed from testifying because it might be injurious to

his career. Quote, well, it should be injurious to his career if he was on drugs. If his whole persona was, say, your prayers, take your vitamins, kids, how do you get dismissed from testifying because it might hurt you to tell the truth? Now at one point, McDivitt was asked why Hogan got to get away with not testifying when Ronald Reagan himself had to testify about Oliver North. McDivitt's response, well, maybe Reagan had the wrong lawyer. Wow. Erigan much.

Lawyerly much like, you know, you know, you know what you're saying is unassailable. So go for it, I guess. So from April 92 through January 93, Hulk Hogan was not officially a part of the WWF. Now, he'd get royalties and things like that. He made no appearance with them, which tells me that that Marvel contract should have ended. But I guess because there were likeness rights and because there were video games and stuff like that, he was still involved with the business. So it carried on. Now, the trial was argued in 1994. McMahon had been indicted in 1992. This shit takes forever. And by 1994,

Hulk Hogan is no longer with the WF at all, having retired and then having come back to professional wrestling for Ted Turner's WCW. Now because of this rivalry that Turner attempted, but largely failed at, to get, he also had attempted to get CNN to carry full coverage of the trial, but also failed at that, which I just love that Ted Turner is like, fuck Vince McMahon. I want to have a wrestling promotion go against him. And also, I want CNN to do wall to wall coverage of this trial. And he couldn't quite get it.

And this, yeah, going. And this is 1994. 94, yes. Okay, I just want to make the point. At this time, I am alive. Oh, hey, hey, a new infant has entered the chat. I was born in 93. I just wanted to make that point. That was your ed graduated from high school. Oh, boy. Yep. So, yep. In another universe where Ed didn't play as much Warhammer 40K and had sex as a teenager. Um, he could

have been your dad. No, he wouldn't ask. Well, could have. No. Yeah, I wasn't really into 40, like I didn't play 40K that much back then anyway, it would have been D and D and Cyberpunk anyway. I like that. That's the correction. Yeah. well, yeah, we all know. My, the joke that my well, if I have is, you know, if we had met in, when we were both in high school, she would not have had any time for me at all. I would not have gotten the time of day out of her like, no, you're such a nerd. Yeah. Well, there you go. See, my partner and I think she would have been exactly the gal I would have crushed on in high school. Just based on the wardrobe, she told me she wore my long skirt boots,

you know, comfy top t-shirt usually. Yeah, I'm sold. I'm a premium, bohemian kind of sorted. And the gals who would like all drive the same boxy volvos. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would like to thank my partner and I, if we were in high school together, we would a, we would be a thing. I would like to think that.

I also think she's way more popular than me. And I was that weird, I was that weird middle ground between band kid and high school wrestler. So yeah. Yeah, I just, you know, I was a misfit and those folks were enough close to the margins that they gave me the time of day. Others, other former paramores, no.

We have no business with me. So McMahon gets indicted. The trial happens, Turner tries and fails to get it on CNN all the time. The trial saw Hulk Hogan as a witness for the prosecution in exchange for immunity. Oh. And it was largely a nothing burger, the prosecution, and I think the prosecution overreach, they alleged that McMahon was in charge of distribution

of illegal steroids to W.F. wrestlers. They also charged that he had required wrestlers to take steroids while they were in the WWF. Hogan testified that just like he'd said, that while he had taken steroids previously under his own prescription for the medical purposes, as mentioned on our Cineo Hall in 91, and that he had received them from Zahorian with his fan mail and paychecks. Interesting, which absolutely goes against what he had said on our sinneo haul. He said, McMahon had never asked him to take any nor had he bought any on on Hogan's behalf. Hogan on the stand said, quote, we were Jim buddies. We were friends.

Sometimes I had extra steroids and I gave them to Vince. Sometimes Vince had extra steroids. I gave them to Vince. Sometimes Vince had extra steroids. He gave them to me. Therefore, no conspiracy. And what was funny was that Hogan's testimony actually made it possible for Vince to be found innocent. And because he basically said, Oh, yeah, we took them, you know, that wasn't a crime when we were doing that, though. And there was no conspiracy. We just shared them. Nobody was trying to do anything he never told me I had to on the biggest guy in the whole company, et cetera.

And that, that leaves the door open for Vince to be innocent, but Vince doesn't see it that way. And he was furious at Hulk Hogan because Hogan had testified against him. That doesn't even sit like, okay, yeah. I am not an attorney. I have some legal training. Sure. I took parallel legal courses based on what I understand. I don't get what the prosecution was trying to use that testimony to prove.

Like okay, yeah, they took the drugs, but the charge isn't that they took the drugs. The charge is there's a conspiracy. You don't put somebody on the stand. You haven't already rehearsed Right, so here's what I think is is what's happening for the prosecution I think you've got some overzealous US attorneys. I also think that they are kind of blinded by K-Fab Yeah, I think kind of my thought too that blurring of reality I think kind of my thought too, that blurring of reality blinds them and they think it's one thing and it turns out the rest are can just walk and I want us to remember this for when the Gawker trial happens.

Hulk Hogan is not the same guy as the guy who takes the stand. Terrible a it takes that stand yeah, and I think that they have trouble distinguishing between the two because wrestling is that one business where that's really kind of hard to distinguish and they do that shit on purpose. I think it's those carney kfab roots. So yeah yeah, but it also I also think like because the prosecution was trying to show that Vince man was trying was trying to encourage his wrestlers to do that. I think they completely neglected like the process of how he does it. He doesn't, if I recall, he doesn't really tell people to do it, but there's this culture where it's expected. Like, so is this established culture like Vince likes his wrestlers big. Well, and

the WWF had been a big man's territory since Bruno Samaritino days, right? Yeah. And a monster factory too. So you've got that, but also you've got Vince would come to meetings straight from the gym. That's gross. So Yeah, but also I feel like he didn't shower. He just showed up sweaty and gross. No, I would imagine he did shower because he, I mean, you know, he's got those suits he likes to wear. But again, he's coming right from the gym. It's known that he's coming right from the gym. Yeah. So there's that culture of like, you know, you got to get bigger and be fear. But also, he would have his lieutenants tell guys who were trying to break into the

WWF like, you know what, if you could get your shoulders to look a little bit bigger, we could really use you on TV, you know, and then they'd go and they'd spend four or five months working on their shoulder caps. Vince would never say that, but his lieutenants would. And that was, I mean, it's how mafia does it get, you know, I didn't say that. No, just because, oh, I think they took it wrong. And there's so many guys, so many guys who say,

oh, Vince promised me this, this, and this. And then, you know, didn't deliver. And it's like, did he promise you that? Or did he say, I could see you as champion someday? And it's a possible deniability. So this kind of goes back to something. We talked about a few episodes ago with Whole Colgan being like a populist leader in the way he presents himself.

They're one of my favorite things is there's a researcher from Texas A&M who research which is a presidential rhetoric and of course we have to compare populism with Trump. One of his strategies is called a pair of lipsees and what that strategy basically is saying is like I'm not saying but I'm just saying, I'm not saying this, but I've heard other people say this. Right. So that's kind of what his underlings are basically doing. I'm not saying you have to do steroids, but you kind of need to get bigger.

Yeah, or I'm not saying that Vince likes him big, but when's the last time he's saying small champion. Exactly. So it is, and that's just layers. Again, you asked how deep are the layers of K-Fave? Deep enough to keep you out of jail. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and the more, the more of these details that you get into, the more I feel like the DOJ needs to just like slap a rico suit on the home McMahon family. Like, that's one of the reasons why mobsters like, oh my God. That's one of the reasons why the WWF and any territory that Bill Watts ran were never a part of the NWA because the National Reg Wrestling Association or was it the Alliance?

Fuck, I forget what book it was. It was Alliance? Yeah, there's, so there's two NWA's. There's one which is with all the territories saved for two. And then there's another one that is a different group with it was way less powerful.. Anyway, I'm just gonna see the end of the way and people can look it up. But it almost got slapped with a Rico statute early on, but they were able to point to, well, Vince McMahon over in New York. He's not part of us, Vince McMahon senior. And Bill Watts, he's not part of us. And the federal government, you just kicked the dirt and walked away.

You know, like, damn it. So, yeah, again, Carnage shit, right? Mafia shit. I don't want to say it's exactly in the Mafia, because we all know the Mafia doesn't exist. That's just a movie convention through the purposes of this podcast. But it's definitely some carnage shit where you get away with all kinds of things.

Now, the other problem is, aside from Hulk Hogan, the only wrestler who testified for the prosecution was a guy named Nails. I've forgotten his real name, but he played the Norseman in AWA. And you probably don't remember him, but he came out as a convict who had been beaten by the big boss man. And he had one of those voice modulators that made his voice lower over the PA system.

And he beat the shit out of the big boss man, got a lot of heat on himself, turned big boss man face. Um, and basically was an escaped convict was or was an ex con and he was going to take his justice back. Um, nails, uh, had reportedly beaten the shit out of Vince McMahon in his office at a show for shorting him pay on the show. Um, and so he was considered nails was considered an unreliable and hostile witness and contradicted himself on the stand. Vince McMahon's defense against all of this was a non-defense. He stated that he took steroids prior to 1991, but when they became illegal,

he didn't. And the jury came back after 16 hours of deliberation with a not guilty verdict. Evan Patrick Wachwells. Thank you. Yeah, that's nails. A big blonde dude, probably six six, yeah. So this trial was Stephanie McMahon's 9-11, evidently. I say that because after 9-11, everybody was allowed to say what they felt in their heart.

And Justin Bradshaw-Layfield, at the time, just Justin Bradshaw, talked all about we're going to get our revenge. Other people talked about compassion. Stephanie McMahon goes on for two minutes about how her dad had been accused of steroids in the 1990s. And this feels very similar to that. It is weird. That's really weird. It's yeah. So, but, um, let's make this tragedy about me and my family.

Right. Have a deal. Well, because, because the McPans are a bunch of narcissists. Yeah, like the whole goddamn family are. Yeah. Yeah. When the most normal member of that family is the guy who jumps off of like 25 foot cages. Yeah, that's Shane. Like he might be the most normal of them all. So back to 92 93, Hulk Hogan avoided most public scrutiny through his selective and careful picks of absence and interviews.

He comes back in February of 93 to help Brutus beefcake. Brutus beefcake had actually suffered a legit, horrifying accident with a jet ski the previous year, where a woman sailed through the air and her knees caved in his face. Oh. Oh. Oh, man. Oh.

It's awful. He had to have his whole face reconstructed with lots of metal. Yeah. To the point where Bobby Heenan on an interview show, you know, they interviewed him and asked him how he's doing. He's like, I'm doing great. And Bobby Heenan pulled out some refrigerator magnets

and put them on his face. It was so long. Bobby Heenan. Oh my God. Oh my God. Honestly, yeah. Honestly, I think that's the most appropriate reaction we should do. I know, I know. It is certainly the most wrestling reaction there is.

So, you know, what's his face? Bruce Bukayk is wrestling with a mask to protect his still healing face. And the tag team of money ink took issue with that. Money ink is, of course, Ted D. Biosi, the million dollar man, and Irwin R. Shister, IRS, who literally comes to the ring wearing cheater glasses, a suit and tie and wrestles in in what it was called suspenders, a tie and a button down shirt, and yeah, cuts a promo on the entire audience being tax cheats every year. Anyway, they took issue with his wearing a mask. So they go to smash his face again with their attache case after having ripped off the mask. And even their manager, Jimmy the mouth of the South Heart, who is basically the James

Madison of professional wrestling, he even objects to this and turns him face and then Hulk Hogan comes back and chases them off and it sets off a tag team match on WrestleMania 9 between money ink and Hogan and beef cake. It was it was largely nothing burger. What was that? Okay, so this was WrestleMania nine. Yes, so Caesar's palace. Caesar's palace. How? Whole Hogan goes on like sabbatical 94. WrestleMania nine is 95. No, no, no, Hogan goes on sabbatical 92, 93. 92, 93.

WrestleMania 9 is April of 93. Okay, okay. April 93. I am not born yet. Oh, okay. Maybe this is what caused you to be conceived. Can we not? Okay.

Not apply that. No, not so much. My parents have told me and I hate it. They were like, well, we were, we could have finished building a snowman or, and I'm like, stop. We're having fun. Oh, what? Stop. That's the gravy. Oh, I did. Oh, Oh, oh. So damn it.

I don't recommend this if you actually have the goal of getting laid, but sometimes a fun thing to do is to describe with perfect candor biologically what's happening as your dirty talk and just be like, you know, the blood vessels in my penis are beginning to engorge. And the blood is starting to rush back and forth there quicker than anywhere else. I know for a goddamn fact, I would end bad with a black guy. My girlfriend would not be out. She's like, stop it. Your growth is. That's fine. Anyway, I'm just kind of soft pedaling you guys so that when we do spend an entire episode talking about Hulk Hogan's penis, you're not going to be so thoroughly off your cookies. So no, we still will be.

It's just it wasn't because I didn't try. Okay. Fair. Fair. So, so he's taking that back to one of our previous episodes. Yeah. I'm thinking back to one of our previous episodes where you brought up the comics. Yes. And now I'm thinking like, are you going to do that with penis?

Just send us a message with an image of his dick. No, no, no. Surprise. You know, the stills of him with bubble the love sponges wife. Yeah. Spirity camp. It's good times. There are things that you should be grateful that

I've looked at so you don't have to Ed. Um, I regularly am. I just want to say, um, yeah, good. The amount of the amount of time you've spent watching 90 sit comms, so I don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. Just waiting to get to my 10 part series on small wonder. So oh boy. And nobody patched it. Phil has been. So any. So it's a dog shit of a match. It really is. It doesn't go particularly well. Hulk Hogan actually has it looks like a busted orbit. And there is no verifiable story as to how that happened. Some say it was a boating accident the day before, others say Randy Savage punched him out because Savage was having marital troubles with Miss Elizabeth and Hogan and his wife Linda were advising Miss Elizabeth on what to do. That's actually

a true thing that happened. So some say that Randy punched him out. Some say it was a, there's like four different stories floating around. None of which I've been able to verify in any way, but he has a enormous like his eyes super bloody. He talks up the main event, which is between Brett the Hitman Heart, who has been champion, yeah, who's been champion for quite some time.

And Yoko Zuna, who is a Japanese sumo wrestler who weighs over 500 pounds. And matter of fact, Yokosuna is actually a Samoan wrestler who is billed as a Japanese wrestler because in a world where Italians can be indigenous peoples, this makes sense. So he talks it up and he actually uses the the the racial slur for Japanese Americans when he's talking about it. He's like his Bret Hart going to win or is it going to be that? And it just he flies through like real quick, but you're like, whoa. I think I have a screen cap of that somewhere. Anyway, so Hogan gets himself insinuated to go on last at WrestleMania nine

after Bret Hart loses to Yoko Zuna, losing the title because Mr. Fuji throws sand in his eyes or salt in his eyes. And then Hogan comes out to help Brett. Fuji challenges Hogan to a match immediately. He beats Yokozuna one, two, three in the middle of the ring and becomes a champion one last time. I think it's his fifth championship.

Yokozuna's champion for literally two minutes. This is considered the worst wrestling match of WrestleMania history. Period, not just for nine. And this, this was supposed to be a huge bump for the WWF going overseas to tour for a while in Europe. But the irony was that at the time, Rhett Hart was the biggest draw in Europe that the WWF had. The double irony here is that Hulk Hogan didn't go on that tour and ended up dropping the belt to Yokoh Zuna. Then he went to a different European tour and then he let WWF promote Mr. Nanny before

leaving the company for good, which really just means for nine years. And then he went and did a couple shows in Japan, and then he was done beyond doing those. It's very weird, but I would point out that he made sure that he went on last. He became the champion instead of the favorite champion that everybody had at that time, took the shine off of him,

and gave the belt back to the guy who'd beat in the champion, and then left the company. Like really kind of screwed over Bret Hart in a lot of ways. What's his relationship with Bret Hart? Bret is usually pretty bitter against most people. Okay. Bret takes wrestling very, very seriously and I mean this was money to him too. But Bret definitely carries a grudge about that. I get the feeling that

Hogan never really considers Brett. That's what I asked. I feel bad for you. I don't think about you at all. Yeah. Like that kind of yeah. Yeah. I mean, in many ways, like Bret Hart has been frequently screwed over by the WWF and WWE. Yeah, I didn't see he wasn't bitter without cause. Yeah, no, no. Like we got the Montreal screw job and his own brother in many ways too, rest his soul. But like, WCW fucked him over, got, yeah, like push Goldberg to the point where Brett got his career ended.

Yeah, it's all like, you know, they talk about family curses and obviously the Von Erick's are far more cursed than anyone else, but like the hearts are pretty high up there too. Yeah, you know, so I mean one of their brothers died of a flesh eating bacteria. Brett had this incredible career and it ends with just like a debilitating concussion followed by a stroke and yeah, then Owen dies, you know, or Owen dies first and then Brett gets his career ended and you know, the screwdriver and all that. I mean, it, it, and then half the guys who married into that family get killed or die. So it's yeah. And this I want to know because a lot of it a lot of it. WWE's scripted and stuff like

that was that planned that he would just whole coldogan would come in and win that within a few minutes. That belt and then just. Hogan went and convinced Vince McMahon that this would be good for business. Probably like two days before Mania started. So the plan wasn't that. And Hogan actually, I think he says it in his autobiography where he basically swung for a home run and he was surprised to get a contact. He, you know, he was like, okay, cool. That worked out a pretty good deal for me because champion back then meant you got paid top of the card money. Yeah. And so he, he basically, he was a little surprised that his ask was answered. And again, there's no discussion of how he considers Brett.

Yeah. And to be right off the bat, this is like, okay, he's probably telling fans that like, hey, I just want to go in and then I'll give the belt right back. Yeah, basically saying like, hey, I want to end my career as a champion. Well, and let me do the tour for his career. Yeah, let me definitely, but yeah, let me do the tour for you as champion. I think that'll be a bigger draw for everyone. You don't want it to, you know, be anyone else. Yeah, and Vince still stuck on Hulk Mania and, you know, yeah, this seems like a good idea. And remember, this is before the 94 testimony. This is 93. Yep. So and then Hogan ends up like everything that and that's what's so confusing about it. Everything that Hogan like advertised the dads to Vince ends up not coming to pass.

Which is just odd. So and again, they took Brett with them overseas and Brett wasn't the champion and Brett was the biggest draw they had internationally. So it's very weird. It is. So yeah, Hulk Hogan's done with wrestling as it seems in 1994 by the summer of 1994. And in all honesty, it really did seem like he was done. He was moving on to TV and movies. like I said, Mr. Nanny, which came out just after WrestleMania 9. So that makes sense. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't do well. It cost roughly $10 million to make and only made back $6 million. This was, interestingly, the first movie that he made as Terry Hulk Hogan. So he's blending theater and reality a bit now. Remember he was Hulk Hogan.

Okay. Yeah. No. He's starting to, he's starting to, in a lot of ways, he wants to maintain his audience from WWE, right? It's Hulk Hogan. And but he wants to start to separate himself in a way, kind of like what Dwayne the rock Johnson did. Precisely. Yeah. And what we're seeing now in some ways with John Cena. Yeah, I mean, the thing is John Cena never really had a short nickname, you know, he was the doctor of thug economics, but I think that was just an honorary degree. That was, that was an honorary degree. Yeah, that's close. It's the same way you can become doctor of thug economics the same way you can get into homeopathy and just for office

certificate. Exactly. I mean, I am myself a minister in three different churches for very similar very similar qualifications as being a functional doctor and or a osteophenath and or, you know, what do you call it? Essential oil salesman if I wanted to be stag oil. Yeah. Yeah. So after that, Hulk Hogan is filming a TV series for syndicated television called Thunder and Paradise as Terry Hulk Hogan. I remember this very much because the production value was Baywatch level. So just that level of cheese that's just kind of put into the film stock. It filmed in Florida near Orlando's Disney World and by extension Hulk Hoganogans Tampa home. Tampa to Orlando as I think a couple hour drive. It's a simple show about former Navy Seals driving a boat around and solving crimes.

So like if Baywatch aesthetic had a dumb love child with Navy Seals the movie, you'd have this. It is to Baywatch nights what tractor pulls are to professional wrestling. Just trying to give you a feel of for how it goes. It started as a, Ed is really confused as to which ones were. That's, that's a, that's a tortured analogy. Like, I, I kind of get where you're going with it, but, That's that's a that's a tortured analogy like I Kind of get where you're going with it, but That's a high effort that's a high effort analogy. Yeah

It started as a direct to TV or direct to DVD film But then they got a season that went from March to November presumably trying trying to pick up on that sweet, sweet 1994 stoner, late wake up demographic. Because at this time you didn't have law and order or ER or charmed to run in that 10-to-noon spot on TNT. So, this is the place where Hulk Hogan is on set that and he meets Rick Flair. According to some, according to others, he met with Gene Ocarland. Although Rick Flair says it was him, Eric Bischoff says it was Rick Flair. So I'm kind of inclined to say it was Rick Flair. Anyway, Rick Flair approaches Hulk Hogan about working for the WCW.

Here's what Rick Flair is doing in Florida. WCW is now, I think, being run at this point by Eric Bischoff. And Eric Bischoff was looking for ways to cut costs. So they stopped doing live shows everywhere. And they just went to, because Disney said, why don't you film here? We'll let people watch for free. We won't charge you for renting the place. So built-in audience, you can film over the course of two weeks, you can film three months worth of content. Let's do it. So that's why they're there. That's why Flair shows up on set. So Flair sets up the interview that brings Hulk Hogan and Eric Bishoff together

and Hulk Hogan was back in wrestling, not just collecting royalties on all the VHS cassettes that Titan was selling. Thunder and Paradise was also a vehicle to get a quick payday and SAG cards for wrestlers. Here's a list of the people who were on the Thunder and Paradise, which only lasted like less than 24 episodes. Jimmy Hart, Brutus Beefcake, Jim Knight Hart, Giant Gonzalez, Sting, Typhoon, or Tugboat,

depending on where you want to call them, or the Shockmaster, if you prefer. They all got spots on the show. It's also at this time that Hulk Hogan testified against Finsok Man and the trial that went nowhere and did even less. So it's June of 1994. Go ahead, Andrew. No, nothing, I have enough evidence. Wrap my brain around what's going on. Sure.

So now it's June of 94. Hogan goes to WCW, which is a market that he's never been in before. Right? And he had come back as Hulk Hogan this time to a song called American Made, which if you remember what he first came out to was real American, right? American made feels like the Hydrox version of I am a real American. Yeah. Hydrox came out first. Yes, but it's flavor tastes like it's pretending to be Oreo. Bear. Yeah. But all right. Yeah. Like, I mean, if I told you to go lick Adam's shin and then go lick Eve's shin, you'd be like, well, Eve is clearly the one whose shin I want to keep licking.

And somebody's like, oh, well, you know, Eve was made from Adam. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Same thing. There. So, uh, anyway, um, Hogan's looking to remake all the magic that he'd made before. So he doesn't change very much. Still the red and the blue. Or I'm sorry, the red in the yellow, still the American things. He brings in Mr. T right away. He brings in a lot of celebrities, actually. He brings in Shaquille O'Neal, and he recorded training vignettes with George Foreman, all of this in 1994. So think about the star power here, first off,

that he brings with him to WCW. But also think about the fact that he's using three black athletes and celebrities in 1994 and an Atlanta-based company that had just two years earlier gotten rid of a man named Cowboy Bill Watts at the urging of Hank Aaron, because Bill Watts made racially insensitive remarks about a restaurant owner's right to discriminate based on color in Atlanta. So in some ways, Hogan is being used to scrub clean champion, Ron Simmons, just two years earlier.

And so this is part of that. This is also getting, I mean, Chiquillo Neal was enormous at this time, right? This is 94. He'd been driving. He's still enormous. Well, true. Yeah. But like, he captured everybody's imagination at that time.

He was bringing, yanking down backboards. They changed basketball for him, like every team had three centers on it now, who would just their job was to foul the shit out of Shaq every night. He is huge in the American mindset in 1994. Just really good upstart shit. And he's right there in Orlando Because he's part of the Orlando magic right? Yeah George Foreman is having his comeback You know he ends up being champion He also has the George Foreman grill Which I don't know if I talk about this later, but Hulk Hogan claims that because he didn't answer the phone The grill people decided to call George Foreman next.

It's Hulk Hogan. I mean, you got to take him with a salt like, but you remember how big that fucking grill was as far as the public imagination? Again, yeah, you might not, Andrew, but I know I still know it. Oh, okay, you might not, Andrew, but I know I still know it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like it's it's so embedded into our cultural zeitgeist. Right. You think of like a grill. You might think George Foreman associated with it.

That's true. That's very true. So he's bringing three black athletes to Atlanta based company in Florida for a lot of the summer. And he's bringing the red and the yellow and he's bringing the Americana all to this southern rastlin company that Ted Turner owns. And because he's bringing all of these celebrities to WCW

and since Ted Turner has such deep pockets, Ted Turner doesn't mind the cost. And this is later going to lead to Kevin Green of the Green Bay Packers. And then like three other teams, Dennis Rodman, Carl Malone, while they're actually dueling it out on the basketball court, then they're dueling it out in the wrestling ring. Brings in Jay Leno, brings in so many celebrities, all who are there to do business with Hulk Hogan. And since Ted Turner was putting WCW on national TV, this means that even more mainstream appeal and presence for Hulk Hogan again.

So yet again, he's coming in and he's writing this rising wave and getting everybody to recognize him and his brand. Now, as I said, um, oh, you know what? Actually, I think this might be a better a good place to end because, uh, we're gonna turn Hulk Hogan bad guy next. No, wait, we're gonna we're gonna turn him bad guy. Yeah, well, we're gonna we're gonna see him, uh him go from the red and the yellow to the white and the black and we'll revisit the NWO ever so many. Yeah, no, actually, I think this is a really good place to end it. Okay, Hulk Hogan is brought in all this attention for two years for from 94 until 96 because it's at Bash of the Beach in June of 96 that he turns bad guy. Okay. But so for two years, he's bringing all kinds of celebrity power.

He is bringing all kinds of mainstream legitimacy to WCW and making them seem like they actually are a viable second company to the WWF. And it's on his back that this is doing, but also this is when you know, the greatest sin happens, post-omania, but at the same time, like all these things are happening, he is getting rich and his image is getting out there. So yeah. All right. So that's where we'll stop for this episode. What have you fell as gleaned? Ed will start with you. Okay. It is becoming more obvious as we go along. as we go along, how Hogan is rising to the crow's nest, and then jumping off the ship as it sinks. Oh, yes. You know, he's making sure he gets his own out of it, and then he's moving on. And there's all, all like, he is, he is Teflon for whatever reason because people think that, people think they need to protect him

for their own interests or because they, they somehow think that I can't imagine anybody feeling like they owe him anything because that he he uses people up and and discard them. But but there is this there's the sense that like well you know he is so synonymous with the business that we need to protect him because if he goes down, we're all fucked. And the parasite always takes the host. Yeah. And when and like when we started this whole journey, I was like, okay, well, you know, how how conscious is this? Is this just like, you know, he's changed the gardener and like, you know, right, he has this, it has all this luck. And the longer it goes on, the harder it is for me to hold on to that opinion. Like, no, he knows how he went, whether it's whether it's a conscious scheming, okay, look, this is like, I've got this mastermind long arc thing going on. Or if it's just he has an intuitive genius for reading the

tea leaves. You know, like I'm in this position right now, I want to stay in this position on top. You know, the momentum is moving this direction. That's the way I need to shift, right? And I think it's, I think it's more of the latter. I still don't see him as like a mastermind. Right. But I do think there is a definite, there is an awareness of, okay, the best direction for me to go

is gonna be this way. Yeah, it feels like he's not the one pulling the fire alarm, but he's the guy who loots all the desks when the fire alarm gets pulled. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way to look at it. You know, that is really good. Yeah. I say, yeah, I like that.

Yeah. You know, and he's, yeah, just I never thought of him, like I never thought of him as being a dummy, but I never, I never quite realized the extent to which, no, he actually has meaningful like savvy that he has that he has leveraged. Yeah, that narcissistic stuff. This throughout this entire arc. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the leveraged. Yeah, that narcissistic stuff. This throughout this entire arc.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that's the right time. Yeah, like, oh, hey, I need to, I need to, you know, get my ass out of here because, you know, the good, the good doctor is going down and Vince might be going down with him. So,

tutels, you know, yep. You know, and consistently managing a frame things in a way that he, he doesn't wind up. He, he, he manages to hurt himself like in that RC interview. It's like, oh my God, dude, what the fuck? But he never manages to come off looking like the bad guy. No. Yeah. Even when he kind of is. You know, even when, you know, well, you know, I just figured I'd go ask for this and, you know, hey, you agreed to it. What are you going to do? Like, dude, you just, you just fucked over, you know, a dedicated professional in your field, like one of your colleagues for

over many years. Well, you know, this is a business. And, yeah, and, and, and part of it might be because of his own narcissism and him not not understanding the hurt that's involved there because of because of just disconnect and a morality or a you know lack of empathy, but it's it's yeah, yeah, no, it you said you said a moment ago, we're going to we're going to turn him into the bad guy. I'm like, it's kind of already there. Well, it's becoming it's becoming ever more complicated, not to see him that way. Well, for me, yeah, yeah, for me. How to say. Listening to other people who like talk about whole cold and our podcast room, they talk about him. A lot of times it seems like they would talk about him like he's an idiot.

But yeah, but coming from this, he is very media savvy. He knows how to present his image. So I'm just going to dive in the communication study stuff. Yeah. Image is the way we want others to perceive us. And we go through different types of behavioral adjustments through identity management. And these things could be influenced by ourselves and others.

So thinking about like a job interview, for example, you're being influenced by the job on how you want to present yourself. We also manage multiple images, how we interact with our family, how we interact with our friends, how we interact with other people. But it's also very complex and it ultimately comes about with these ABCs of communication, appearance, behavior, and communication. But we also have this idea known as face, coined by Irving Goughman. It's basically our desired public image,

or a certain way that we want others to see and think of us. And we work to maintain that image. Hulk Hulgan, he is very aware of who his audience is at different points in time it seems like. And so he goes about with face works, the behaviors we use to project our desired image. On our serial haul show, his audience is much more younger. He is presenting, he is going on more defensive because he wants to maintain that younger audience. So he is trying to present himself in certain ways. That's where I was really interested when he said the statement, eat your, what did he say? Take your vitamins

and say your nightly prayers. Right. That is taking that's trying to appeal to certain types of like values or certain types of like positive values people might see and he's trying to present his image in that way while also saying like the media is lying about this. Right. And remember he is going on there as nominally as whole Kogan, but he's being Terry Balea. And at the same time, the train, say, or prayers, each of vitamins, I believe yourself, those are called the four demands. That Hulk Hogan has been saying since 1985 when he started selling chili vitamins. So he's using a slogan. Okay. I don't think we talked about that part. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Or it popped up in a prior episode. But yeah. So those, but he's still pulling on those, those, those aspects of Americana while also playing, I am a real American coming down to the ring. And by the time he's on our Cineo in 91, he has already done the, I'm an American fighting the Iraqi sympathizer thing too. So or 92 rather. So like there is, and you know, you talk about face and that kind of thing. And I think how much more turned up to 11 is it when it comes to K-Fabe, especially?

So there are three components to face. We call them face needs. These are the components for a desirable image, autonomy, which is all about feeling like you're avoiding being opposed by, upon by others, competence, others respect or acknowledge our abilities and intellect, as well as fellowship, being liked and accepted. And so what we're seeing a lot of is him playing to those in a lot of ways. But the other thing, yeah, another thing,

because I have to relate them to Trump in many ways. You made the point, his entrance music was, I'm a real American, as well as, I love the other thing. The values, he promoted. The three demands that then turned into four demands. Two of the rhetorical styles that Trump always uses is ad-popular, which is the idea of like treating popularity as a value. So those values in many ways are being presented

in a popular way. But the other thing that Trump loves to do is using the rhetoric of American exceptionalism. We can do no wrong. We are amazing. And he's playing to that too with his persona as well as his entrance music. But going back to the idea of face needs and how he adapts to his audience, think about comparing him on Arseneol Hall where he's constantly rejecting that he's ever used steroids and then going on to the trial where he admits he used steroids before they were illegal. Who is his audience? Ario Hall is a younger demographic. Right. He can be a little bit more aggressive.

He can be more defensive. Who's watching the trial? Yeah, a judge. Someone who could sentence you to perjury. Well, on TV. Oh, remember, it's not making it because Ted Turner didn't get the right to do it. Was it still aired? It is still public record.

And I mean, I've watched parts of the testimony and it's still being reported on. So he's got media exposure for it. Absolutely. Yeah. Including not going to be shown on the nightly news. But it's not going to be his fan base who's going to be watching it. They're not going to be the ones who are going to seek it out. He's focusing more on like who is his primary audience and he presents himself in that way. And then when it comes to that trial, he's still trying to maintain his sense of

autonomy and competence in a lot of ways as well as his fellowship. I'm friends with Vince. I'm friends with Vince. I am knowledgeable about this, but I have autonomy. I would, this, these pills, these supplements weren't pushed on me, or Vince didn't push it on me. I use them too. So, he's still maintaining this type of image that is still in many ways his control. Irving Goughman argues that life is like a performance. What we're seeing a lot of is Hulk Hogan, Terry Baleia. Terry Baleia.

What's going on here, me? Very different, very different guy. I realize one such ad-bale. I said, Bradshaw. Terry Baleia is constantly presenting an image. He's constantly performing. Who is Terry Baleia is constantly presenting an image. He's constantly performing. Who is Terry Baleia? Who is he really? I'm sorry, but after you said that, I pictured Terry Bradshaw and, you know, a red and yellow muscle shirt with the handlebar mustache and... Of course. Yeah.

I need somebody to Photoshop that now because... Yeah. So... Anyway, sorry. Yeah. He's very good at maintaining his image and presenting a certain type of face because the other big thing you made the point about, when he left, they didn't really have the audience because Hulk Holgan technically is WWF. He's crafted his image and you can't separate the two. Hell, Hulkomania, WrestleMania.

Yeah. Like they're interconnected. Oh yeah. So the point where again, this is a major storyline in WrestleMania 19 between him and Vince. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't disagree with you at all on this. Like where goes Hogan, goes to WWF. For a long time. Yeah, and then the thing that also interests me is as well as with the WCW, where they're trying to create a certain type of image that were more inclusive and more accepting of other performers. While kind of in many ways, imitating what WWF did to start promoting themselves,

like they're getting these big name celebrities to help associate the WCW, like what WWF did. Absolutely. Like the first mania was and the war to settle the score and the brawl to end it all, all of those had a lot of celebrity appearances. So absolutely. Yeah. And that's, you know, I think that's one of the reasons that Hulk Hogan gets stale and needs to turn heel in WCW. And we talked about this all the way back to episode five was that the

culture of WCW wrestling of a Southern based company is not the same culture as WWF wrestling in Northern based culture. And because those cultures are different, it called for Hulk Hogan to do something different. And that that genius that he has for media, that savvy that he has for understanding media, which again is very, as you said, it's very Trumpian, because Barack Obama was also very populist in a lot of ways, but not in the ways that Hogan and Trump were.

But yeah, that savvy that he has allowed him to extend his career and make money hand over fist for those years, the amount of money that he was contracted to be paid by WCW and by Ted Turner, which were two separate sources of income for him. Um, we'll get into that later. It's amazing. He got a, like, if he showed up on a pay-per-view, he'd make $250,000. Just for appearing. And there was one pay-per-view where that was basically their gait,

their live gait was about $250,000. And he showed up with no advertisement whatsoever, which is like, why are you doing that? You just zeroed out your live monies, but they had a different business model than was the norm. So they were like, no, but that controversy creates cash that gets people interested in what might happen next time So they're gonna you know, it was a TV company and all this is all kinds of wild, but you're right. It's his his

acumen for media is He can be an idiot with all the other things. I don't think he is, but he could be and he's still really good with media stuff Similar to Trump Trump has a genius for this. Yeah, stable genius. Yeah, very good. Very stable with all the best words. Exactly. He has all the best words, which also make me also realize a little bit more

where his image comes about, where when he compared himself to Clarence Thomas, he was trying to create a sense of sympathy through that type of image management. I don't think it went, you may have pointed, didn't go well, and I completely would agree, but that's what he's trying to do. I think he also tries to figure out different types of life.

With that in mind, I think he takes consciousness of what's happening outside of the wrestling sphere and tries to pull it in in many ways. So we can associate it himself with other things to get his image to spread outside of that wrestling sphere. Yeah. And the thing about that is those that we saw early in his WWF career, at least, with the exception of playing

Thunderlips, he then dove into the WWF and pretty much only worked for them and with them and was highly concentrated. I mean, there was that one TV show that did not go well. And then, and then once he leaves the WF, then he starts to kind of branch out. But then once he gets into WCW, he mostly only does like a few movies here and there. And there ones where the production he can work around his wrestling schedule. So he stays very concentrated in the wrestling, despite the kind of, you know, filtering out that he does in between wrestling. But yeah. Yeah. So well, cool. Since I got you here, what are you

recommending people read or take in or imbibe? So after my back at a little bit better, I decided to go and celebrate. And I went to see a movie that I don't know, maybe you all heard of it, it's not really that big or popular right now, it's Spider-Man. Uh, uh, it was a, yeah, it's across the Spider-Verse. It's so good. It's so good.

Yup. It's literally just art. It's just art. I think there's a reason why those movies have been so successful. That the it's first one across the spider bird or inch into the spider versus into the spider. Yes, and this one should be across the spider. Yeah, and the next one is the long and winding spider verse, I think. Um, but, but I think one of the reasons they're so successful is because, uh,

comic books are inherently a illustrated medium. So animation is a really easy branch over. I also really like generally the plot in this way because in a lot of ways, it's kind of basically calling out the audience who rejected Miles Morales as like, oh, you're not really spider-man. Yes, yes, like oh, you're not really Spider-Man and There's basically saying no anyone can be Mm-hmm enjoy our story Yeah, yeah, I would agree All right Ed, what about you?

Well, I'm going to make a complete departure and recommend Reading actually reading not watching the films, but reading the fellowship of the ring. I am in the process of reading it to my son. And he's a little young for it. So his attention waxes and wanes, but it's what we're reading for story time in the evenings before his bedtime.

And Peter Jackson made what I think is the best possible adaptation of the book to film. Having said that, there are an awful lot of things that got left on the script writing floor. There are multiple chapters of the book that you don't see any of. The movie obliterates significant portions of the Hobbits journey to Rivendale. Largely because it would be very hard to make Tom Bommadill

a an easy character to to deal with on film. But by eliminating Tom Bommadill there are several major events that are very powerful on the page. Tolkien doesn't get enough credit for being able to write scary shit in my opinion. And I strongly recommend reading the fellowship of the ring in order to I recommend reading the fellowship of the ring in order to experience that story in its original, in its original format with all of those parts intact. Oh, awesome. So that's now having having said all of that what did you got they mean what are you recommending for oh? I'm actually gonna say I'm also gonna recommend a film

I'm and it's called the wrestler came out and I think 2008 to make your work one It does a really good job of depicting the The drug scenes that we discussed tonight And you can get a real feel for just how immersed all of that was into, and it's a fictional movie, and it has drawn rave reviews and awful reviews from professional wrestlers. And usually the ones who were retired are like,

yeah, this shit was dead on, and the ones who still are looking to stay hired are a little less charitable toward it. But it is some really good acting. It gets into the aspects of masculinity and just body mortgaging and comparing to sex work, even, that I think a lot of discussions of wrestling

don't get into. I think Mickey Rourke did a really good job of being very vulnerable for those kinds of things. So it's a fantastic movie. It will depress you. So have ice cream on hand afterwards. Perfect. Perfect.

No. Good news. Yeah. Yeah. No. Good. Yeah. So cool. Well, let's see, by the end of this recording, I think the best place you could probably find me would be on, I'm going to say September 8th for capital punishment at Luna's in Sacramento and maybe October 6th. So that's where you can find me. Ed, is there anywhere you want to be found? Well, not right now. Soon, but not right now. Okay. Cool. And how about yourself, their Andrew, where would you like to be found if it all?

Well, for the most part, I would like to be found on TikTok. You can follow me on TikTok at prof.suds. If this is coming out around September, you might, because I know how popular this podcast is, there's a high chance, one of my students might be listening. So do your homework. Thank you. Thank. Cool. Well, you know, Andrew, thank you again for joining us for this descent. It's my pleasure as we get closer and closer to Holkogin's penis. Um, so inch by inch, right.

I wish you'd stop saying that. I really do. Oh, God. What you're going to do when these 24 inch, anyway, so bad damn it. So for a geek history of time. The fact that it's plural is what bothers me there. For a geek history of time, Andrew, thank you so much for joining us. I'm Damien Harmonic.

And I'm Ed Blaylock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s.