A Geek History of Time - Episode 240 - On-Screen Hatfield & McCoy Depictions Part I

Episode Date: December 2, 2023

I'm saying that we were getting to the movies. Yeah, and I'm only going to get into a few of them. Because there were way too many for me to really be interested in telling you this clone version or this clone version in the early studio system. It's a good metric to know in a story art. Where should I be? Or there's beast. I should step over here.

Uh, yeah. At some point, at some point, I'm going to have to sit down with you like and force you, like pump you full of coffee and be like, no, okay, look. And are swiftly and brutally put down by the minute men who use bayonets to get their point across. Well done there. I'm good, Aimean. And I'm also glad that I got your name right this time.

I apologize for that one TikTok video. Men of this generation wound up serving a whole lot of them as a percentage of the population because of the war, because of a whole lot of other stuff. Oh yeah. And actually in his case it was pre-war, but, but you know, I was joking. Did he seriously join the American Navy? He did. Fuck it. 1.5-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1- This is a Geekis Reimtime. Where we connect, and order each other real world.

My name is Ed Laylock, World History and English Teacher teacher at the sixth grade level here in Northern California. And just in the past week or so, as we record this, with the caveat that this is being recorded, I have now been to my own my own back to school night as a teacher and my first back to school night as a parent. Oh wow and and so now now I have I have I have seen things from the other side of the looking glass as it were And I will say one of the major differences between my own experience as a teacher and my experience as a parent is and of course my experience as a parent is colored by my experience as a teacher.

So this is probably not entirely typical. But I know that I wound up carrying a whole different set of expectations into the classroom than my wife did when we were meeting with the kindergarten teacher. She came away just very, very happy and secure knowing that, you know, okay, you know, his teacher is going to take care of him. He's going to be okay. I came out of it thinking, all right, I like the way she's got the room laid out. It looks orderly and she sounds like the kind who sets boundaries and doesn't let you get out of hand. So, okay, this is going to be great. Very different kind of emphasis we were looking for.

Also, when you like me make the decision to send your kids to a parochial school because, you know, it's a religious thing. We got booze at back to school night as parents. And like introducing Ed and his wife and people went boo. No, no, no, no, we got we got we got alcohol like leftover communion. No, no, no, like wavily crackers and a lot of much better, much better quality than that. No, no, nice. See, because there's there's fundraising that they need to do.

And it's always a church is hurting for money. Yeah. Well, it's long story, but it's not. It just has a long and story history. Yeah, it's a short story. Yeah. If anybody needs reminder, there was an episode on the Popes and John Cena. So yes. Yes.

Yes. Okay. And, yeah. And, and by the way, no, you know what? I haven't had enough beer yet to do it. And I don't want to have to go to confession. I was going to make a remark about Benedict, but I won't. Anyway, yeah. So lubricating the audience before you hit them up for a contribution to the capital fund is always helpful. Yeah, always helpful. I know. I know.

I know. I'm not supposed to talk during this time and then you talk about the Catholic church moving people up consciously. I'm not consciously trying to kill you. I'm not saying there might not be part of my subconscious that isn't trying to work that angle, But yeah. So anyway, we have now been through that as parents and I got to see what the other side of that equation looks like. So it's a whole new world. How about you? What have you got to go on? Well, I'm Damien Harmony and I am a US history teacher here in Northern California.

And since we've already dated this show, I will say that after 1,313 days, my house now has somebody suffering from COVID in it. We have managed to avoid it for this long. I don't consider it to be like so much a streak broken as we did a good job of playing good enough defense and they finally got one on us, right? So yeah, my hope is that it's just a field goal. So it's just my daughter currently. We are insanely masking in the house.

She is staying in her room. I told her I said, honestly honestly just pretend like I gave you the right to do whatever you wanted today and you decided to stay in your room reading. And by and large, she's been pretty good about it. Which for your daughter is a realistic kind of. Oh, it is. It is. I will not see her for two or three hours. And I'll be like, hey, would you been reading? Like, oh, you know, worn piece. Oh, okay, have fun. So it's how it goes. But yeah, so my child, one child has it. I'm trying to keep myself and the other child from having it.

We all wear masks while we are all conscious. Once it is bedtime, I turn off the air conditioning and everybody closes their doors. Yeah, the doors. What's that? I was just saying what you were saying. Everybody shuts their doors. Yeah. Everybody shuts their doors and then they can unmask. It's honestly, is it still a risk? Yes, but we are not circulating the air through room to room as much. And it's one of those, okay, you got to live too. So, yeah. And by and large, her first night was her worst night.

She's been getting better since then. I'm very hopeful that tomorrow or the next day, she will test negative. We will see. I'm keeping her home at least until that negative test comes, maybe plus a day. So I will look at what the protocols are now. Yeah. I'm very grateful that she's as Vaxed as can be. So is my son. So am I. Uh, and I'm, I'm very hopeful that we can all dodge that bullet. I will point out that as of this recording as people heard as kid has a back to school night. He has himself done a back to school night.

And therefore, we know that that's beginning of school times. Within a week of school, my child has contracted COVID during a time that the pandemic is over. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I already have two students who are out, going to COVID, like specifically for COVID, I have, I want to say at least one other who's out for unspecified illness reasons. So yeah, no, I mean, it's coming.'s, it's, it's coming. I'm, I'm already looking at like when, when, when is the best time for me to get stuck again? Like, I want, I want, I want the next booster, please. Right. Please, sir. Can I have some more? Yeah. I'm like, jamming my mind. I don't care. Like, you know, the other thing is I'm a little stymied by the fact that we are seeming to have like seasonal boosters for a disease that is not a seasonal disease. It is a wave-based disease. We know when the waves are going to be. They're going to be when kids go back to school.

They're going to be when kids get back from winter break. Like, can we please start having them around that time. Let's get ahead of that. So I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm not FDA worker and stuff like that, but yeah. Anyway, that's how things are here on more cheery fare. You're taking tonight. I have a beer in front of me. Yes. Should I get another one? Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. Hit all the beers because we are going to talk tonight about Hatfields and McCoy's history channels.

Last great prophecy. Oh, all right. All right. I've been you've been talking about this one off air. Yeah. For a while. And I've been I've been excited about this. So yeah. All right. Hat Hatfield and the McCoy's,

like if I remember my history as given to me by Warner Brothers in the 1940s and early 1950s, one of the groups had generally very dark hair, we're kind of satirized looking, the other group were all red hats, right? Right, yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, and yeah, and in otherwise, aside from the hair color, they all looked identical. And none of them, none of them were shoes. Oh, and we're going to get into that because really what

I'm talking about is on screen depictions of this feud and that has changed over time. So, okay. You know, it's a short episode where I only cover over a hundred years of cinema history. Oh, so we might be able to get through this one in like four episodes. Thinking seven, but yeah, no, hey, okay, wait. It's 48 pages. I don't know. Seven was Hulk. Like, come on now. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, let's see. Let's see. All right. All right. So in late May of 2012, the history channel provided watchers with a three part dramatization of an historical event, which was nice because it was a return to doing history stuff. Yeah. And it

didn't involve extraterrestrials at all, which was like, like, such a spiritual staff to me, like, oh my God. Yeah. And in a few episodes from now, I'll actually dig into that deeper. But for right now, it's a vice to say, one, two, it featured the brilliant acting of Kevin Costner who was taking his first steps into becoming the grizzled grumpy patriarch who does bad things to do what he thinks is right. Yeah. A role he seemed born to play far more than the baseball guy. And the late great Bill Paxton, who played an aged burnout who was unforgiving and

unyielding in his love of God. Powers Booth and Tom Baringer also rounded out the cast, bringing some of their best performances to bear. And holy shit does Jenna Malone eat up the scenery with her scorn. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, that was the, um, when, when my wife and I were first dating, we, we got together in like a year after that came out. Uh-huh. And we sat down and, and watched that together. And as like one of the first kind of, you know, sit down, you know, hanging out watching a movie, things that we did.

And I remember being really impressed with the performances that everybody, like everybody, there was not a clinker in the bunch. It was really well-acted. Yeah. Really well-acted, really well acted. Yeah. So here's some real quick historical facts that are going to anchor us. And then what I'm going to do is I'm going to kind of be fading in and out with those through the movies and such. Okay. So the Hatfield McCoy feud could be seen as stretching from 1863 all the way to 1891. Those are the dates of the first and final deaths of the feud. Okay. If you wanted to narrow it down to the really intense stuff, you could say that went from 1878 to 1891. Okay. You could

eat. So the last, the last 13 years were when it was really at its highest pitch. Yeah, and you could even narrow that to like 1881 to 1891. You could narrow into a 10 year period, but clearly shit is happening. It's starting in 1878. Okay. So yeah, question. But before we, before we get into the, the specific, like, okay, no, this, this is largely recognized as the first event in the feud itself.

Are we at some point then going to talk at all about the larger context in which these two families were operating as, you know, Scott's Irish immigrants on the, okay, I just want to make, because there's a whole lot of, we're transplanting Highland Scott's Irish immigrants on the okay, I just want to make because there's there's a whole lot of we're we're Transplanning highland Scott's culture onto the North American continent kind of shit go on and it's more Scott's Irish too So it's that that's true and are that's true with lots of feuds. Okay. All right. Just making sure all right. Oh, yeah Yeah, so okay, go on. No, no, go ahead. Just that's part of what I'm so amped about. So, yes, let's do it. Let's go.

It's good to have a hobby. Yeah. So, let's see. The suffices a shit's going on for a while. The Hatfields lived on the West Virginia side of the Tug Fork River, which itself was a part of the Big Sandy River. The McCoys lived on the Kentucky side of the Tug Fork River, which itself was a part of the big sandy river. The McCoy's lived on the Kentucky side of the same river.

So this feud was definitely an interstate feud and it infinitely paralleled in the eight parts of the Civil War and all sorts of tabloid fuel for most folks, which itself provided justification for those who sought to keep up this image of backwards folks for their own game. Okay. Okay.

Now, since movies were a thing, there have been numerous depictions of the Hatfields and the McCoy's feud, starting in November of 1923, Buster Keaton directed and started a movie called Our Hospitality. And it centered the feud in his story. Now it's Buster Keaton. So it's lots of slapstick, lots of gags, lots of people falling in pratfalls and stuff. And also unfortunate period racism. Well, because Buster Keaton, like, well, not only Buster Keaton, yeah, because studio system was true. True. Yeah. But it's been forever since I've seen it,

but I, so, so what, what that means is I ended up drawing on reviews at the time and other sources to recall the details, but it is a completely a historical film in a way that Hollywood clearly delights in doing things like this. Buster Keaton plays a character named William McKay. Yeah, okay, who's fallen in love with Natalie Talmadge's Virginia Canfield. Okay. Yeah. Now this is preceded by the two patriots. Okay.

John McKay and James Canfield, who start the movie off practically by double murdering each other because they had a duel in 1810 and they successfully shot each other to death. Eden's character shows up in 1830 and he ends up meeting Talmadge's character. I believe it a train station. So there's again, all kinds of historical shit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So so he meets her character and he soon love blooms between them through a series of train misadventures. And and William, young William McKay has largely been ignorant of the family feuds. And so when they both get to their destination, young Willie innocently asked Virginia's brother and father where

the McKay estate is because he's come to claim the property. They being can fields offer to show him and plan to murder him the way, but they can't find a gun along the way in order to shoot Willie before he ends up wandering off getting lost. And he finds the Macay estate, which is just a run down home and important detail for later analyses. After finding this disappointing fact out, Willie runs into Virginia again, who ignorant of her brothers and her father's plans to murder Willie invites him to dinner, which Willie of course happily accepts because I'm stunned by this woman's beauty. Yeah.

Now, Willie is at dinner and overhears this argument between the father and the brothers about why they can't kill Willie because he's a guest of quote our hospitality. Right. Right. So again, it's that southern culture being fetishized too, right? Meanwhile, a person comes to dinner that night as well and it's raining so badly that both the person and Willie are invited to stay the night at the canfield house because our hospitality. The next morning willy kisses Virginia, which further inflames the father and brothers to murder willy yet another reason, and we're going to get into what that's paralleling to your standard buster keyton chasing soos in which buster keyton has to dress in a dress for part of it. That's a drag show. Buster Keaton has to dress in a dress for part of it. That's a drag show.

And actually this place, this chase takes place over water and in the rapids. And this actually almost kills Buster Keaton. So we have almost another, there's like, you could honestly, you should count the ones where it's almost not, or where it's not almost a snuff film of Buster Keaton. Yeah, I think you'll only count you'll count fewer numbers, you know. Yeah, it'll be a shorter list by far. Yeah, those will be the exception. And yeah, so the cable that Buster Keaton was supposed to have attached to him to keep him in place for the shot snapped and he got carried down through the rapids and he got bruised and bashed around, but he did manage to grab a branch long enough that the crew could could get to him and rescue him.

That's harrowing. Wow. Just All right. And also, Buster Keaton had to have first aid for all the water he had in his lungs. the water he had in his lungs. So he gets away for the time. And then the next day, the chasing sews again, and the canfield search high and low for William McKay. And he ends up back in the house with Virginia. They find him embracing Virginia. And right is there about to kill him. The person asks, would you like to kiss the bride?

All right. Father Canfield gives up murder, blesses the marriage and his sons lay down their guns. The punchline at the end is that the many guns that McCay lays out, because he also lays out his guns, those are all the guns that he'd stolen from their gun cabinet the night before, having overheard things, right?. So, there's so much that this gets wrong, which is fine, it's a Buster Keaton movie. It's a movie that's based on the story of what happened, right? And I would even just say inspired by, with the Hatfields and McCoys,

it was the son of the patriarch of the Hatfields who fell for the daughter of the McCoy patriarch, John C. Hatfield, son of Anderson Devil Ants Hatfield, entered into a relationship with Rosanna McCoy. And this was amid a whole bunch of other troubles that were ongoing between the families by this point. There had been 13 years of quiet and bad blood simmering between the families

once these two hooked up. Since the attack, it's real fun. There was an attack on Moe's Christian Klein, who was a friend of devil ants Hatfields. Mm hmm. Okay, devil ants took exception to this attack and vowed revenge. In 1863, a group of Confederate home guards kills a man named William Francis as he was leaving his house. William Francis had led the attack on Moe's Christian climb and and actually devilance took credit for this attack. William Francis himself had led the Pike County home guards in Kentucky which had led the attack on Moe's climb. Okay. Okay. Yeah. You're going to need to draw. So just real quick.

This is this is Confederate shooting confederates. No. Okay. Yeah. Which side which side is not the graybacks? Pike County home guards in Kentucky. Okay. Yeah. I think they were unionists. Okay. Yeah, I think they were unionists. Okay. We're called correctly. Okay. Okay. All right. So devilance had served in the Virginia. Remember Virginia was Virginia until I believe 1823 when they were like when you went fuck all y'all. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think they regretted that decision ever since like, you know, economically. Yeah. Well, yeah. economic play didn't do many favors. It's true. So devilance had served the Virginia state line as a lieutenant of the cavalry, which kept him largely in the area at first.

So you join up and then you're policing your home. You can almost, like, you could almost, like, go home for dinner on the weekends, kind of thing. Yeah. like you could almost like go home for dinner on the weekends kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so he was protecting the Kentucky Virginia border from 1861, right after he married Levi C. Chaffin until 1863, when the Virginia state line, uh, cavalry was disbanded. Okay.

After that, devil ants went on up to serve as a private in the newly commissioned infantry battalion, getting promoted all the way up to Captain pretty quickly. Well, yeah, because it was fairly common for officers to be elected by its regiments. So if he was somebody with status back home, he wasn't going to stay a private very long time. And again, his unit, which was company B of the 45th Virginia battalion stayed close to home, patrolling and doing guerilla warfare against Union soldiers in the area. Yeah, because this is Western Virginia and Eastern Kentucky. So it's fairly northish. Yeah.

And you have a lot of people who joined either side. This is that gray area. Yeah, it's a little differently a border definitely a border territory. Yes So at some point in 1863 he kills two union trackers, which I guess are scouts, okay? Okay, but in 1864 there was a deeply involved personal feud going on between a few folks There was a deeply involved personal feud going on between a few folks. In addition to all of this, okay, so he does this. He then, if I recall correctly, he gets out in 1863 as well. He musters out. Okay. He and his uncle Jim, Uncle Jim Vance, if I recall correctly.

So devil ants and Uncle Jim Vance started the Logan Wildcats, which was a guerrilla militia doing work on behalf of the Confederacy, but not officially recognized as such. Yeah, there were a lot of those, especially in border territories. There were pull-out of those organizations, yeah. Now, there's a guy named Asa or Asa, I've heard both. So I'm going to say Asa, Harmon McCoy. And he was the younger brother of Randolph, O'Rannell McCoy, who, and he was a union soldier. Now, here's the thing.

O'Rannell joined the Confederacy. Okay. So, Asa broke his leg in 1864 and that Christmas, so late 1864, he was home on furlough. Shortly after arriving home, despite his family's warnings not to come around, on account of the fact that he was a union loyalist, he was met by the Logan Wildcats and duly threatened Now Harmon had waited for two years So everybody else is joining up in 61 He waited for two years before picking sides and then he went and joined the side that most of his family was against and most of his neighbors were against

By joining the union almost everybody around him was Confederate sympathizer or Confederate joined. Yeah. Harmon, uh, Asah Harman had been a member of the same division that had been led by William Francis and had wounded Moe's Christian climb, the Pike County Homeguards. Okay. Okay. So within 13 days of returning home, some say he was discharged from the army, others say he was furloughed. Asaharman Makoy was killed in a cave that he was hiding in near his home. Okay. Now, you remember who had sworn vengeance? Revenge. Yeah. Right. But they'd also already killed William Francis, who had been As racist leader in the Pike County Home Guards.

Right. Okay. Devilance claimed credit for that one, but there is some question and multiple sources disagree as to Devilance's involvement here. Some say it was, some say he would have, but he was homesick, others, which actually happened quite a lot with him.

And others, and it's because he had long issues because if you live where it's wet, you, you, you could, that kind of happens. Yeah. Okay. Um, and, you know, back then, even with long issues, you're still a freaking Superman. If you make it to 30. Um, so others say it was while he was present, but he didn't pull the trigger. A lot of sources point back to Uncle Jim Vance being the one who committed the murder because he's kind of the cruelest of the family. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's a distinction. It really is. And since he and devilans were both part of the same self appointed militia against someone who was on the union side's border guard, the sense of localized vengeance was somewhat institutionalized along kinship and friendship lines as well as local loyalty lines, right? Yeah, all right. So you've got union versus Confederate loyalties. They honestly are less tied to the issues of maintaining slavery or keeping a union together and they're more tied to local loyalties like I'd mentioned, right? So yeah. Well, yeah. There's a really compelling parallel

that comes to mind for me in where many of these folks trace their ancestor back to. There was a whole region in Northern England, Southern Scotland where whole clans of families who to this day claim, claim, at least in the United States, it's a big deal, there's a whole organization based on it that they are reaver families. And the border revers basically turn the border zone

between England and Scotland into kind of a lawless wilderness for a couple of centuries. And anytime the kings of England and Scotland decided to declare war on one another, there would be a reordering of which families were English and which families were Scottish, mostly based on, oh well, you know, this time they're fighting for the English. So we're sculling forever. Right. And their loyalty wasn't really to any idea of nationality. It wasn't really to either monarch. It was to their own territorial interests as a family. It's an opportunity to seize land and kill off members of our competing neighbors. Well, and I'd like to dial that part in.

It was also more of like which side will let me hurt the people I don't like? Yeah. Yeah. Because the law is not a legitimate thing. The law will just come and take your land from you. Yeah. So you're not fighting to uphold the law so much as you might be fighting on the side of the law because that helps you kill that man over there that stole half a cow from you. Yeah. So, 20 years ago. 20 years ago, 30 years ago, yeah.

So now, a lot of sources that I'd found pointed to that same narrative that Asa Harman, McCoy, it had a so, so they point to Jim Vance being the killer, but they also point to the idea that asa to the, I don't want to say ideas so much as fact, but I don't want to say fact because there was not enough verifiable sources that the, the disputable fact. Right. That Aisa Harmon McCoy himself had a former slave who was bringing him food. Okay. Again, when you joined the union, you didn't join because you were against slavery. You joined because you wanted to keep the union together. Yeah. Or you joined because, man, fuck those guys over there. This, let me show you. Yeah. Yeah. What I find funny though is, I hadn't realized that the rest of the McCoy's had been confederates. Yes. I had thought it had been

most, but most. I had thought it was a more clear cut. You know, the McCoy's were on this side of the border and they were, you know, unionist and the, yeah. So, so this guy, this guy chose the size that was the side that was just a big fuck you to literally everybody. Most, yeah. Yeah. And yet, when he gets killed, that's going to activate the vengeance bone in most of the McCoy's who were pissed at him for joining in the first place. But yeah, well, family trumps that. Well, we we're the ones who get to kill him for doing that. Not you. Yeah. Like that's our fucking job, right? He dishonored the family. It's our job to punish him for it. Not yours. Right. Yeah. Nobody picks on my brother, but me. Right. And this, you know, I am inclined to believe the sources that I found that said the Asaharman had held people in slavery

or held at least one person's slavery because he's from Kentucky, like most of the Makois were. And that is a slave union state. It's one of the forced slave states that's left out of the emancipation proclamation, whereas most of the Hatfields were from Virginia and then eventually West Virginia, a slave Confederate state. Yeah. So the immediate thing that comes to mind is the indication that he had held people in bondage,

at least one person in bondage. At least, at least a person, he had held people in bondage, at least one person at least at least a person. He had held someone in bondage. He had owned another human being. Is an interesting point for me because part of the narrative that's always been put forth is that these were not wealthy families. Right. So I'm interested to find out what we're going to get to find out about. Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. There's there's all kinds of fun property shit that's going to come up. Oh, boy, I'm gonna get confusing. All right. So whatever happened, there was no investigation into Asah Harmon McCoy's death. And this is where the bad blood began. But this was 1863. Okay. Nothing is going to happen violence-wise between these two families for quite some time.

So we're going to fast forward a little bit. In the mid-1870s, Devil Ants Hatfield was expanding his timber operations, and this was actually kind of interesting. He was a bit of an exception to the rule. So mid 1870s the Civil War is over and a whole lot of Eastern sions of wealthy families had served as officers in the Civil War and they had gone through that territory and been like, wow! Papa would love this timber. This is all old timber. Okay. Yeah. And so a lot of industrialists were like, we need it for fuel and a lot of industrialists were like, we need it for building shit. And this means that timber is going to be

a big deal. So he's one of the very few people in that area, from that area, who is actually expanding timber operations. Most of them are going to be big timber from out east. Okay. Oh, okay. All right. And North East and North. Yes. Yes. All right. Because the ones that were from the southeast, they, they, their money was burned up. They're fortunate. Their fortunes had been raised. Something happened. Yeah. And And antitrust tank or something. Yeah. So Sherman, Sherman had happened. They can die mad. Um, and they did. Uh, yeah. So, uh, like I said, they'd mostly served there. The, the, the sons had mostly served there. And

we're like, you know, they went back with like tails of of holy shit. There's more wood than you could possibly imagine. So they said about buying up the timber rights in the area and shipping these beautiful forests north and east to help the booming housing market in the later half of the 19th century and early part of the 20th century. Double ants, like I said, was one of the very few folks who lived in the area who actually profited from the timber. And despite being a lifelong illiterate, he had a shrewd mind for such things. And he sought to expand his timber operations. This, you know, goes back to my idea that we should take the word genius and turn it back

into a noun. He had an agenius for this stuff. He was illiterate and that did not matter because he had a mind for these kinds of things. Yeah. In fact, many have actually cited the dispute. I'm about to try to untangle as the real cause of the feud. And it involves devilance and a cousin of Randolph McCoy, Perry Klein.

Okay. Okay. So most of the sources that I found are definitely Hatfield Centrics. Some of this is because they seem to be the relative victors in the fight. And they had more documentation. Yeah. And frankly, they just had more documentation put out there. Now, I want to spend some time discussing why people will continue to dispute facts, despite them not being written down clearly, or despite the facts being written down

clearly and the evidence of being irrefutable in some instances, but I'm not going to get to that just yet. I'm going to talk to you about Perry Klein. And to talk about Perry Klein, I've got to talk about Peter Klein. Peter Klein was raised by his German immigrant parents, both from the Palatine area in Germany in the Reading area of Pennsylvania. So Peter Cline's parents were from Palatine in Germany, I believe it's in Prussia, and Peter Cline settled, or his German immigrant parents settled in the Redding area of Pennsylvania. You might know Redding because of the monopoly board. Right, right. We all are reading. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So I can do every day. All right. Now Peter is a bit of an asconious in that we don't actually know if he migrated with his parents or if he was born once they got there. So just like the, you know, the son of I Nias, who knows, but the point is that he's there now, right?

Yeah. Now, he was definitely raised by German immigrants, and their last name was Klein, K L E I N, right, which later gets turned to C L I N E. To make it look more anglicized. I think also spelling wasn't as codified. Yeah. Yeah. So, hey, what's your name? Client. Okay, I'll put that on the deed. Does that look right? Sure. Fuck, I don't care. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, he Peter Klein was living with his

German immigrant parents in Pennsylvania since at least 1760. So before the country was a country. His father was a shoemaker and a snuffseller. Now Peter married Elizabeth in the mid 1770s, which means their first child was born in 1777 or 1778. Peter actually fought in the Revolutionary War, according to his pension application. He applied for a postwar pension. And after he served, he migrated to Virginia sometime by 1786, settling in what was then known as the New River Settlement, which is in the western half of the state near what's sort of like the Panhandle of Virginia.

Okay. Yeah. And this makes sense because if you're landed, you just stay in your land. If you're not, then you move further west, right? Yeah. Now from there, in 1811, Peter Klein's family migrated to the Tug River area, which is on the border between Kentucky and Virginia. And this seems to have been an attempt to just live closer to a lot of his own children that had moved across the river. Okay.

Now, for our purposes, the fourth of Peter Klein's nine children was a man named Jacob Klein. His nickname was Rich Jake. He's the important issue of Peter and Elizabeth Klein. And if you're connecting names, yes, the friend of Dava Lance Hanfield's name was Mos Christian Klein. Right. He was born of this family. Now the first child of Peter and Elizabeth was a guy named Michael Klein, who was the father of Mos Christian Klein. Okay. Okay. Older brother of Rich Jake. Right. Okay. He had Mos Christian as a son. Okay. Okay. Older brother of Rich Jake. Right. Okay.

He had Mohs Christian as a son. Okay. You'll recall that devil ants probably killed William Francis in revenge for the Pike County Home Guards attack on Mohs Christian client, right? Yeah. And then find this connection fascinating, and I hope you do too in a minute. So back to Rich Jake, the fourth child, right? Right.

The uncle of Mohs Christian client. Yes. He's the fourth child, right? Right. The uncle of most Christian client. Yes. Um, he's the fourth son of Peter and Elizabeth. He's the brother, uh, to most Christian clients. Father Michael. Yeah. Making him the uncle of devil. Anses, revengeed friend. Or revenge, which led to a string of events that killed Asa Harmon McCoy, the younger brother of Randolph McCoy. Right. Okay. Now, if your mind is swimming now, just wait until I get to Rich Jake's will. Rich Jake was a veteran of the war of 1812. And he was named Rich Jake because he was much better at being rich than most people in that area. Yeah, okay. He owned several thousand. It's kind of setting a low bar, but it is.

It is. But, you know, he did it the way that everybody out east had done it. He claimed this land first kind of thing. He surveyed it and called it good. Okay. And he owned several thousand acres along the Tug River. He also enslaved people, leaving the three that he held in slavery. He held three.

He left them upon his death to two of his children to do with his day soft fit. Should the enslaved people quote, refuse to labor and become wasteful or likely to destroy the effects of my personal estate. They then again should the what now? Should the two should the three enslaved people refuse to labor and become wasteful or and likely to destroy the effects of my personal estate, you do whatever the fuck you want to them, right? Now, he also left a provision for what to do to these enslaved people or what to do with the money's gained from selling these enslaved people as well. Okay. Okay. So Rich Jake, slave people as well. Okay. Okay. So Rich Jake, brother of Michael, uncle of most Christian. Yeah. Rich Janks, he had nine children. Everybody has so many fucking people. Well,

well, I'm glad you said these people because that's going to feed into what we're talking about. Okay. What amazes me is that so many of these kids live. Like, you know, the old, the old thing is like, oh, well, you had like 13 kids. So three of them would live. Most of them lived. Okay. Which I found interesting. Yeah. So his, his nine and final child was his youngest son, Perry A Klein. Okay. That name. Yeah. This familiar. Okay, that Perry a client has a land dispute later on with devil lands handfield. Hatfield. Okay. Okay. Client being a cousin of most Christian client, a first cousin. Okay. Because his daddy and most Christians daddy were brothers. Yeah, okay. So Hatfield is going to end up having a land dispute with one cousin and going and killing a fucker to revenge another.

Just another one. Yeah. Oh my God. All right. Gets more fun. So in the will. And it's interesting because Perry's name is spelled both Perry like the the fruit like this tastes kind of Perry. Um, and also the normal spelling of a person's name. All right. Um, I spent the better part of a morning parsing between these two names trying to figure out if in fact there are two different people. Uh, but there's no record of any son besides Perry, whose name is that similar. So yeah, okay. Pretty sure it's. All right, yeah. So in the will of Rich Jake Klein, who died in 1858, he left land to all of his children. His third child was Elizabeth Klein. She was married to Thompson Henderson Hatfield.

Okay, and this is how the connection to that field. Who is the son of Joe Sayy? Be Hatfield, who himself is the brother of Valentine Wall Hatfield, who is the son of Joe say B Hatfield who himself is the brother of Valentine wall Hatfield who is himself the father of F for him Prader Hatfield or big F for short, and he is the father William Anderson Hatfield better known as devilance Hatfield. Okay, okay, hold the fuck on. Wait a minute. Yeah. the fuck on, wait a minute. Yeah. So what you're telling me here is the clients

are related to the Hatfields. To the Hatfields. Yes. And they're also. Traumarage. Well, yeah. And also, they're going to end up her related to the maquise.

They're related to the maquise. Yes. So the, okay. So, okay, well, we, there's your problem. Yeah, oh, there's others. Yeah, but here's the thing, it is really easy for us to slip into what's wrong with these fucking people, right?

There's this narrative that has just been infused in us. Yeah. In such a way that like, I don't know, anti-trans jokes were funny to everybody who watched Friends. Okay. You know, like it just were funny to everybody who watched friends. Okay. You know, like it just was so much a part of the soup that you couldn't get. You know, it's like when you find out that there's corn syrup and everything, you're like, what the fuck?

What the hell? So this, these people kind of vibe, like, you know, similar to when we talked about, honestly, when we talked about the eugenics movement and how we were all rooting for the wrong side in the movie idiocracy, right? How we were all pre-exposed toward that. To toward, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, Devilands Hatfield.

Mighty. Okay. Is brother to Valentine David Hatfield, also nicknamed Walt. Ellison Hatfield, and Elias Prader Hatfield, also known as Good Lias, not to be confused with his uncle on a different side, Bad Lias. Okay, I'm sorry, but if a family like the Hatfields, Nick names you bad anybody, you're mad bad and dangerous to know. Well, he's called devil ants.

Yeah. And there was also a preacher ants. Apparently they're like Romans. They only have four names. Yeah. Anderson is one of them. You know, when they're when they're when when when all your kids literally man to actually just like be like, okay, we'll name the next boy that lives, John, you know, it's like he lived. What else are we going to come up with? Fuck yeah. I mean, that's that's part of it, but there's also culturally.

Mm-hmm. A very big deal about, you know, there are certain names that that are in the family because of the number of people who've already been named that. Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's so. Anyway, I mean, my son carries names of. You know, it's so, anyway. I mean, my son carries names of like three of the grandfather's that he has.

There you go. My daughter carries a name of her aunt as well as two women throughout history that I admire. Yeah. So, yeah. Now, Jiminy Crippance. Witness to Rich Jake's will was a guy named Charles Mounce.

Charles Mounce was also related to Rich Jake by his mother, Rich Jake's sister, Margaret Mounce, Nay Klein. Charles Mounce is the father of Andrew Jackson mounts. Okay. Andrew Jackson mounts is the father of Levi C. Chaffin, who is the wife of Devilands Hatfield. He's also so prominent families. So what we're saying here is prominent families intermarry like like yeah, incessently. Yeah.

Okay. Mary like a lot like yeah, incessantly. Yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. And he's also the father of devil or of Daniel mounts. Daniel mounts was the husband to Harriet mounts. Nay Hatfield. Harriet mounts Nay Hatfield was the mother to Ellison cotton top mounts and sister to Floyd Hatfield. Ellison cotton top mounts was the illegitimate son of Harriet Hatfield and Ellison Hatfield. Ellison Cotton Topmounds was the illegitimate son of Harriet Hatfield and Ellison Hatfield, her first cousin. Ellison Hatfield was the younger brother to Devilance Hatfield. There's some like a Roman, you know, what gents are you part of kind of shit going on here? The next sentence that I have for you is no shit. This is Julio Claudian, but with way more kids, which is part of the story that

will matter more later. Albalonga and Rome didn't have it this bad. That's the next sentence. So yes, we've been doing this long enough that I'm already on that wave, like, like immediately. Yeah. It is wild. So like, part of me is this long enough that I'm already on that wave like like immediately. Yeah. It is wild. So like part of me is like who we fudent with. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, do I need to get a float chart or like how will we? It gets so wild. So Rich Jake has a will and in his will, he left to his daughter, Elizabeth Hatfield, the wife of

the aforementioned Thomas and Henderson Hatfield, he left her a bunch of land. As well as he left some land to his daughter, Martha McCoy. She's named Martha McCoy because she's married to Wait a minute. Yeah. Wait a minute. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Hold on. Yeah. All right.

All right. All right. I like. I need to get a T cup. Sure. Okay. All right. Go on.

Additionally, Rich Jake's will left land to all his children, including this, this phrase, quote, I give to my son's Perry and Jacob Klein, because of course he had a kid named Jacob, attract of land in Logan County on Tug River, bounded as follows to wit beginning at two maples about one quarter of a mile above the mouth of grapevine creek, vents out to the top of the ridge, vents which the top of the ridge to the river at the lower end of my land on said tug river, including all the land I hold on the river with said lines upgrade fine, all I hold on said Creek, including below said lines to Perry and Jacob Klein in

Jacob Klein in copaskiannary to them and their heirs forever, which means that this guy owned land on the Virginia side of the tug, and he gives a bunch of it to Perry, as well as others. Yeah. Okay. And quote, I give to my son, Perry H. Klein, which is interesting. I'm just going to break out here. His, his middle initial was a Klein, which is interesting. I'm just gonna break out here. His middle initial was a Klein, which he, like later hands up, changing it again, but an H and an A looked very similar. It took me a little while to Uncle Tangel. I'm like, wait a minute, is this the same pair? Yes, it is.

It is. Okay. So I give to my son Perry H. Klein, attractive land on tug river in Logan County and state of Virginia, bounded as follows, to wit beginning at two maple standing about one quarter of a mile above the mouth of the grapevine creek, then it's running up the river, including all the land I hold on the river up to Jackson, mounts line to him and his heirs forever. So there's a fellow on the other side of your property named Jackson mounts.

Okay. Now, so there's so so so so there's a lot of land on the top river that Perry has. Yeah. And and so to kind of parse that out, it sounds like the property below two pines was shared with his brother, the property above two pines was given directly to Perry by himself. Well, not two pines, two maples. Two maples, I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Yeah, I know. That's actually an important distinction. It really is. But yeah, but from from from landmark south is is oh held between the two of them right landmark north it's just just Perry okay right ten four now this will was carried out in April of 1858 as records seem to indicate that rich jake died in march of that year and that's the thing is like it's hard to hunt down death certificates in the 1850s um well mean, it would be hard to hunt them down anywhere, but in that part of the country, particularly, yes. So here's where it gets fun. Perry at the time

was a 12 year old, and he is now orphaned when his father dies because his mother died four years after Perry was born. Oh, shit. This meant that his land would be his when he came of age. And it was held in conservatorship by one of his other relatives. Until then, there's some trespassing that's in the air. According to a deposition in 1898, so I'm fast forwarding to get to this information, that, that which by the way, this deposition includes the testimony of one cell Kirk McCoy, who is the son of David of Samuel David McCoy, who himself was the brother of Daniel, effort McCoy, the father of Randolph, old Randolph McCoy. In other words,

cell Kirk and Randolph were first cousins. So in this deposition that cell Kirk gives after he'd been captured and imprisoned for life for his role in the feud, he stated that devil ants hatfield had been trespassing on what was left to Perry Klein as early as 1861. Okay. Now what does hatfield doing there? Logging. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. When the war had ended, ants went back to trespassing and cutting timber down in the great fine area of Perry Clients and inherited lands. However, Hadfield swore that he was timbering the space that he had claimed to due to a survey that his own father had made. However, that survey was never able to be produced. OK. According to manual, not manual, Mary Daniels, who is Perry's niece, fire relation to the Mounts family, at some point, after the Civil War, Hatfield had moved into possession on the Great Vine Creek,

and the clients couldn't get him out. And this led to a mediation meeting at the mouth of the grapevine creek. And according to Daniels, Hatfield attempted to use a gun to mediate. So he basically picked it. Yeah. All right. And again, after the Civil War, okay. So in 1858, Perry Klein is 12 right call correctly. Okay. So that means after the Civil War that's had seven years. Yeah. Yeah. Barely a man. Yeah. So having this patriarch of another family, grizzled veteran, like you didn't even have to have the gun in his hand just you know doing the move pulling his jacket back to reveal the big iron on his hip would be an opportunity pretty intimidating. Yeah. So there was an agreement that got drawn up between Hatfield and the

clients, but it appears from the records and the court decisions that only Perry Klein agreed to sell his half interest in the grapevine Creek tract in 1869. Okay. And so this older brother property, right. This is the property shares with his older brothers. This is south of two maples. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. Trying to get to geography right in my head. Sure. Now, such a sale or trade would not be possible if client had not had claimed to the land. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So by that claim and buy that sale. Devilans Hatfield is admitting that Perry Klein in fact had claimed to this land. Now the agreement required Devilans Hatfield

to pay Perry Klein $500 for this tract of land. Okay. Which is not an in not not a small amount of money. No, no, it's not. However, it appears that Hatfield never paid the full amount as evidenced by the later 1877 deed. Now, around 1871 or 1872, Hatfield and Perry Klein seemed to enter into a second agreement over the land this time to trade lands. As is discussed in the West Virginia Supreme Court case, that states, quote, in 1870 or 1871, Perry Clayne, Perry Klein traded all the lands devised to him by his father to one Anderson Hatfield, devilans, or lands on the other

side of the tug river in Pike County, Kentucky, and said Hat Hatfield who had been cutting timber as a trespasser and building cabins on said grapevine creek, claiming some sort of title under a survey made by his father left grapevine creek and moved to the Cline Old Home, Old Home place where he lived until 1888 when he and his sons sold all the lands that they had to pressure or to the appellants and moved away. So literally it's a landswap. So Perry Klein is like, you know what? Fuck, I don't need the tug river land.

Why don't you give me your land that's across the river. I'll stay over here in Kentucky with the rest of the McCoy's and you can have the lands over there. Okay. And Hatfield's like cool and moved into the house that Perry Klein had built and lived on, right? So he now has a domicile. Yeah.

And then in 1888, the Hatfields sell it and they move elsewhere. Okay. Okay. And I believe they sell it back to Perry Klein or not necessarily Perry Klein, but somebody related to it. Okay. But you have another Klein. Yeah. Now it is unknown what possible threats or additional pressure

Hatfield exerted upon Perry Klein who at this point is like pretty young, if any in fairness. But there is a serious question as to why Perry made the trade as it appears extremely favorable to devil hands Hatfield. Perry gave Hatfield all of the lands that he inherited from his father, Rich Jake, which included both the half-interest in the grapevine tree Creek Tract and his full interest in the old home place tract for some land across the Tug River in Pike County that was allegedly worth about 1900.

And soon after the trade, Devilance moved into the Klein homestead where several of the Klein's ancestors had been buried. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Along this land was also another spot of land that was owned by one Alexander Mounts, who was related by his mother Margaret Mounts, who was the sister to Rich Jake, making Alexander an older,

first cousin to Perry Klein. And it was called the Mount Branch. Okay. Alexander Mounts had given timber rights to Taylor Greene as well as to some of the Klein family. However, Debel Ants had surveyed his new land, and during his 1872 survey, Hatfield came upon the lines

who were cutting timber on the Mounts branch and ordered them off of his property, except that it wasn't his property. They were cutting timber on the Mounts branch. Right. But Hatfields like, no, this is mine. And in May of 1872, Hatfield actually filed an injunction in the Logan County Court against the Mounts, against County Court against the mounts, against green, against Jacob Klein, Jr.

And against Perry Klein alleging that they were trespassing, trespassing, and that they had caused damages on his land. And in his deposition, Devalant's claimed that the Mount Branch was actually part of the Klein lands. However, Jacob Klein, brother of Perry Klein, testified that on the day of his survey, devil ants claimed the Mounts branch area through adverse possession, in other words, I have a gun. This delayed the recording of the trade of land that had been so favorable to devil ants and it's so so averse to Perry Klein, so that that trade was now delayed and therefore possibly disputable. And the trade

between Hatfield and client had already been made in 1872, and it was clear from multiple witnesses testimony from a court case called Ellison versus Torpen, as well as the decision from West Virginia Supreme Court itself. And it mentioned that trade had already occurred in 1870 or 1871. This all leads to Logan County ordering an official surveying of the land for obvious reasons, like, all right, all right, fine. Let's literally say we're going to, yeah. Okay. Now this led to a deed signed between the Hatfields and Klein in 1876. Okay. Okay. All of this continued and dragged on during the entire feud and the murders. Okay.

So everything's happening in this feud. All of this stuff is happening during that. Okay. So, for instance, on, yeah, go on. So, so at the same time, there is, there is a back and forth murder spree going on. They are also dressing up in their best clothes, showing up in court to argue this shit in front of a judge. Yeah. A judge in one county that might favor one group or a judge in another county, another county that might favor the, yeah, the,

the dichotomy there is is remarkable. Okay. Well, and this gets into my admitted prejudice toward the borderland or culture. And I think this is largely just a rejection of my own like family heritage. Okay. A the cost again, you know, I was very clear when I talked about the eugenics thing of like why we are so inclined to think of well, those dumb robes because we've come so further. I think this is part of that for me, but the idea that the truth is merely but a tool to be used when convenient and to be ignored when convenient. I have a hard time giving any kind of respect to that. convenient. I have a hard time giving any kind of respect to that.

Okay. Yeah. So, and they're doing that like handover fist all the time. Yeah. Especially devilance hat field, it seems. Yeah. Hat field seems to be doing it a lot more. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now, it could be that I also focused on that because most in most stories, hat fields are considered kind of the protagonists. And to leave this kind of colors that. So I, you know, we've been some selection bias.

But on May 1st, 1875, Perry Klein, who by this point had permanently relocated to Pikeville in Kentucky, he sold the tug river Pike County land that he had purchased in 1872 to Jim Vance senior. in 1872. To Jim Vance Sr. the man who most people believed killed his brother-in-law, Asaharman McCoy during the war. Okay. Uncle Jim Vance was supposed to pay Perry Klein $1,200 in three installments of $400 each. Klein received the first installment, but Vance didn't pay the second installment. So on May 8th, 1876, Perry Klein was forced to file a lawsuit against Jim Vance because between the time that Vance had purchased the land from Perry Klein, or because, yeah, between that time Vance purchased it. He also resold it to a William Daniels. The guy who

Klein had bought it from in the first place, and he resold it to him $1,500. And Daniels still owed Vance at least $800 for the property. So Vance was awaiting that to pay for Klein for his final two installments. So Perry Klein kind of has good cause to wonder if he's ever going to see his remaining payments from Vance should Daniel finalize his payment to Vance for the land that he bought from Vance who'd bought it from Klein who'd bought it from Daniels. Wow. Okay. So clearly, Devil Lance Hatfield and Perry Klein had a lot of problems between the two of them and Klein had a lot of good reason to dislike devilance had field. Perry Klein's brother Jacob Jr. had been the one to tell Mary Daniels that devilance was trying to take the client lands land that had been in the family since 19 or since 1819

said that he was trying to take it quote by the muzzle of a gun. said that he was trying to take it quote by the muzzle of a gun. Now for for Klein devil ance's false pretenses regarding Hatfield's father his father's never proven survey was a constant agitation along the borders over on the borders and over those of the Klein lands and the survey stunt in 1872 and the claims of adverse possession over the Mounts property. All of this leads to dislike and possible hatred of devilance hat failed on the part of Perry Klein. Okay. His hatred of devilance must have fully developed by at least 1874. Now in an unrelated lawsuit in Scott County of Virginia, Perry changed his name from Perry

Anderson Klein to Perry F Klein, because it seems like he didn't want the name Anderson attached to him because devilance have field. Okay. I can understand that. Okay. Yeah. Now, a second reason for Klein's disdain toward Hatfield, likely reached back to the Civil War, despite Cline barely being alive for it,

Cline's immediate family and the mounts and his cousins who lived just up river and around the Peter Creek area were all unionists in Kentucky, whereas Devilance was a Confederate from Virginia. And Devilance had led several raids against the pro-union residents of the Peter Creek community.

The family of clients future wife Martha Adkins also staunchly unionist. So several additionally several several parries close relations were killed by confederate raiders under devilans ands hatfield. Asa Harmon McCoy, his brother-in-law, Charlie Nounts, his first cousin, Asbury Hurley and his son Fleming Hurley, also first cousins, and Moe's Klein, one of the slaves that helped to raise Perry. Okay. Which is all kinds of twisted for someone who hated confederates for their attacks on unionists is like, well, yeah, but again, it gets to hurting

the people you want to hurt as opposed to any other cause being a thing. So yeah, it's especially odd since he was willed three enslaved persons, one of whom continued to live with him and his family as a servant long after slavery had been abolished. And he's the unionist like, yeah, there's all kinds of fucked up going on there Yeah, now fast forward to 1878 Because I was talking to you about John C. and Rosanna So we need to get to the hog trial and to the murders that get to this Romeo and Juliet couple right so Hogs back then weren't something that you would pen up. It wouldn't make any goddamn sense. There's too many hills.

They could just jump over the bottom of it, right? So instead, you let them run free. They fatten up off the land. And then when you need them, you capture one for food or for trade. You could put a bunch of food into one place and then pen them in there and then slaughter one, right? Because the land is obviously too steep for it.

And this is how big farming works in this area. So if you want to avoid mix ups, which were kind of frequent, those who owned hogs would notch their ears with special patterns. So as to keep track of who's was who's. Okay. Okay. So three stripes up the side of the left one. Those are all so and so's, right? Two holes in the tip of the right one. Those are all so and so's. And I don't know. Right.

A fog, a fattened up hog could easily feed a family for weeks or months during the winter. And you could sell so much of that for other supplies to also family fed, right? Well, it matters a lot. Yeah. And I mean, you know, we're talking about an animal that, you know, if it's been out there for a couple of years and has been feeding well, that's going to be a 400 pound plus easily, a 400 pound plus animal. Yeah, definitely. You know, so yeah All kinds of wealth tied up in that right So Floyd Hatfield was the cousin to devilance Hatfield and he was also more dissonally related to Randolph McCoy Well, because I mean in in this kind of, in this kind of region, everybody's related

to everybody else, somehow. Yes. Like, yes. Yeah. All right. So through Floyd, they're both related to each other in the same way that my brother Bowie and my brother Aaron could be considered related, like they're both half brothers to me. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. So here's where the story gets liviesque. Some say that Randolph McCoy tracked a hog to Floyd Hatfield's house and confronted him about the notch that was clearly Randolph's notch, right? And Floyd Floyd denied it. That's not your notch. That's my notch. Others say that the pig wandered on to Floyd Hatfield's land, and so he claimed it, stating that people get each other's hogs all the time, so what's the big fucking deal? Which is a valid argument, you know, and Randolph disagreed with that. So whatever

the case, hog theft was a big deal in the area because of how close to the margin of hunger folks lived on and how many of the kids kept surviving. Yeah. So it couldn't just be a let it go issue or a, oh, you're probably right. You know, a couple, couple, a couple of summers ago, I probably had one of yours, you know, others say that Floyd Hatfield swore that it was his notch and it was indistinguishable for Randolph's. So impossible to know. But this does lead to a trial in the winter of 1878 before the justice of the peace.

Who's who what's the justice of peace is last name? preacher and hatfield. So that coming right now this is Anderson C. Hatfield. The son of George Washington Hatfield who was cousin to devil and catfields grandfather. This makes them second cousins though some reports have them as first cousins meaning that their fathers were brothers. But I want to say as their grandfathers were brothers like I'm pretty sure that makes them second cousin. It's chic. It's tricky. Yeah. Well, it's, it's second cousins in their may or may not be

a removed in the middle there somewhere. Well, removed is usually a generation different to. Yeah. Along the same generation. They're in same generation. Okay. Yeah. And when they generation 13 kids, the same generation could mean that you're actually older than one of your uncles. Oh, easily. Yeah. Because if you're the first child of the first son and, you know, your uncle is, yeah, it just, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

So, all right. So they're probably second cousins. Yeah. All right. Either way, pre-trends, named so because he was more of a pleasant disposition than his cousin devilance, which I just love is like, well, you're not, you're not as as much as an asshole. Yeah. So, yeah. So he was the justice of the piece of for the hog trial of the century in Kentucky.

Now, this is largely a McCoy area, but I think I've shown that there's a ton of intermingling between the two clans. Yeah. The jury was split six Hatfields and six McCoys. Okay. So which tells me you're going to get a hung jury every time. Yeah. But one of the McCoys on the jury, Cell Kirk McCoy, was persuaded by the sworn testimony of William state. William state was a relative of both clans, but he had two brothers-in-law who were Hatfields. And he, William state, and claimed to see Floyd Hatfield notch the hog in question making it his. The jury therefore

voted seven to five in favor of Floyd Hatfield. Not sure that's how Jerry's work, but that's how this one worked. Well, and so was this a criminal trial? Was was the on trial for theft or was that the same trial? No, he was on trial for theft. Okay, so it was a varsity, larceny trial. Now given that it was preacher and cat field as the justice of the piece, the questionable testimony by a hat field and the McCoy who turned was a known ally of the Hatfields. Many McCoy's, including Old Randall McCoy, saw this as an infuriating injustice.

And the thing was stolen animals were a very common problem, especially in this area. And there had been accusations and recriminations previous to this between the two families and also holy shit. How can you talk between the two families and also Holy shit. What how can you talk between the two families? So the trial isn't so much of a Holy shit. Why the hell did that escalate as it was more of a natural culmination of unsatisfactory events along both. Yeah. Simmering, simmering tensions for God knows how long.

Yeah. Right. So that's 1878. Now you remember the record cases up through 1876 between Klein and Hatfield, right? Right. Okay. So 1878, you have the hog trial. Yeah.

Now, this is all to get you to Rosanna and John C. McCoy. Okay. So, in June of 1880, Bill State in Turns Up Dead, the one who had given the English testimony. Yeah. Okay. Neff used a Randall McCoy, uh, named Paris and Big Sam McCoy, were accused of murdering Bill Staten. Now, uh, Paris and Big Sam, also known as squirrel hunt in Sam McCoy,

they were hunting and Bill Staten ran into them and he ended up killed with his body left in the woods. Paris McCoy was tried within a month of the deed and found not guilty. Squirrel Hunt and Sam evaded capture for two years until 1882. But when the law finally caught up to him, Big Sam McCoy, also known as Squirrel Hunt and Sam McCoy, I love that he got two nicknames. He ended up found not guilty by a Hatfield pick jury

because it was deemed an issue of self-defense. So even the Hatfields were like, it was probably self-defense. Gil Staten's a little unstable. Oddly, McCoy testimony from both Kentucky and West Virginia actually went against Paris in Big Sam McCoy. So McCoy's were testifying against the killers of Bill state and despite the fact, and a a Hatfield jury found them innocent on account of it was,

well, not innocent, but not guilty on account of the fact that it was considered self defense. not guilty on account of the fact that it was considered self defense. Wow. All right. Now, Valentine, wall hat field was the, uh, is a brother of, of devilance on, he was the president of the county court in Logan County. Okay. So you had the preacher hat field preacher ants had field over in Pike County and Kentucky. Now you got wall hat field in Logan County. Now many have said that double aunt specifically asked his older brother to just go easy on them. A coin brothers for the murder of Bill state and as he thought that that would help ease the tensions between the family between the families letting devil ants focus on logging instead.

Regardless though, that didn't seem to squash the growing problems. Okay. Now, Skrull Hunt and Sam McCoy kept a pretty detailed account of what had happened, and he seemed to be there for most of the brutal parts on the whole feud, and he was the only one to write it all down as a mebwar afterwards. And in this mebwar, if you can find it, because I could not for less than $300. But in this cow. Yeah, well, it's one of those it's out of print kind of things. So if you can find it, Sam talked about how Ellison Hatfield and his family were always good to Sam and his family. And he also blamed them a coise for the feud. And yet,

he's the one who killed Bill state in which absolutely escalated tensions between the two families. So part of that is self-serving. Yes, it's a memoir. So take the assault like it deserves. Yeah. Now finally, on to the love story. John C. Halffield, whose real name is Johnson Hatfield, he's the oldest son of William Anderson Hatfield, devil answer, and Levisa or Levisa, chief in Hatfield, he entered into a relationship with Rosanna McCoy, the daughter of Randall McCoy and Sarah Sally McCoy. Okay. Nay McCoy, because Randall and Sarah were in fact first cousins as their dads were brothers. Okay. This is not entirely uncommon given the isolation of the area, given the clandest

lack of trust of outsiders and given inheritance issues. Yeah, well, inheritance issues and just the fucking size of families. Yes. Like when you when you have nine siblings, mm-hmm on each side of that equation, maybe it doesn't feel quite so. Yeah. Yeah. Now because of this, and because names were apparently at a shortage in this area. Ha.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. I mean, we just we we ran out of them. Yeah, we don't have enough names. Okay. Yeah, because of this issue. Both Sarah call her Sally and Randolph call him Randall. Um, both of them being first cousins,

they both had brothers named Aisa Harmon McCoy. Asa Harmon McCoy. Bullshit. Nope, dead fucking serious. Now, Randall's brother was the one that was killed by the Logan Wildcats. Sarah's brother was the one that was not. However, half of the records that I found blended the two because why the fuck would you assume

that there would be multiple people named Asa Harmon McCoy? Name the awesome Asa Harmon McCoy. Yeah. Anyway, Rosanne was the daughter of Randall and Sally McCoy. She was the ninth out of 16 kids. And as far as I could tell, all the kids lived to adulthood. Now, some of them didn't live much into adulthood due to the feud. 16?

16. No twins either. 16. Yeah. 16 16 no twins either 16 yeah Like mm-hmm I Mean in in in in our era Mm-hmm our era of somebody has three. I'm like what's matter with you? Oh, I don't think I Don't necessarily think what's what's matter with you, but I look at the woman in question.

I'm like, how did you keep doing that? I have a friend who has four kids. I'm stunned that they did that on purpose. And I try really hard not to sound like an asshole about it, but I'm like, like willingly went into, you know, because she's still married to her husband too. So I'm like, you both willingly went into what I felt into. Yeah.

Yeah. You're outnumbered by double. What? What the hell? Yeah. No, what always gets me is when my wife got pregnant, it was miserable. Like she was in physical pain because of, you know, hormone changes and what that did to her joints and like, pregnancy beat her the hell up. I don't want to tell too many tales out of school, but yeah, my ex wife pregnant with my son,

similar to what you're talking about, like, oh my god. Second child, the body was used to and ready for it. Okay. So it could just be like, you know, it's, well where where I was going to go with that is that by contrast, my sister in law, they have they have three. And for a while, we were wondering whether they were going to go for a fourth. And she like she she glowed. She got the glow. She she like because of the way her body responded to everything and the way her hormones balanced out. She was like happy to the climate high tide. Right. And, and there was no, there was no like, oh god, do I want to go through that again? It wasn't an issue. So like I have to look at, you know, Mrs. McCoy here and be like, you must have had What's like they had got your exception back then?

Well, that's that's that is of course also an issue and the other the other thing that really surprises me though Is that she managed to survive through 16 of them in that day and age Mm-hmm, you know Because that was that was the reason why women had a lower life expectancy than men Because they died during the last one. Yeah, like normal. Like, yeah, so I probably had a younger sister that died with mom, you know, that's like. Now, that's and that's a thing that I found to be true about all the families in this area.

Most of them had most of their kids survived. There may have been one or two children that died before they reached the age of maturity, but very few. Now it could also be- What the hell wasn't in the water? Right, well, and it could also be that you just didn't report the ones that- That's also certainly- That is a possibility.

Oh, I could. But still to have 16 and like. If you also not report for like or poor more. Yeah, like oh my God. Yeah. So she is the what I say, ninth out of 16 kids. And as far as I can tell, like I said, all of them live to adulthood. Rosanna and Johnson entered into a relationship on election day of 1880,

which saw her going to live with the Hatfields in West Virginia while all this other stuff was going on. There's all this bad blood going on. You know, you've got the murder of Bill State and you've got the hog farm, you've got the hog trial, all this shit. And so she goes and lives with the Hatfields in West Virginia. And she ends up coming back to Kentucky after Johnson started seeing other women. And it's kind of an on and off again relationship. I, you know, it's kind of, I think they had true chemistry and couldn't quit each other, even though they weren't good for each other. And Johnson is very auxurious.

Nice use of that term. Thank you. Now, yeah. Okay. of that term. Thank you. Um, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It showed up and then disappeared. So, right. The most comprehensive source I have for the narrative of their relationship came from

Latham's quarterly, which is take this all with a grain of salt because it's more of a literary magazine, but it does deal in some history. But I had access to family accounts, a generation removed, but that website had since disappeared by the time I got to writing. The two lost track of time well into the night apparently. And Johncy took her home with him because it would be safer that way than to show up at McCoy's house with your daughter, right? Yeah, that would, that would be a really way than to show up at McCoy's house with your daughter, right? Yeah. That would do a really good way to wind up very dead, very fast.

Yeah. Now Rosanna slept upstairs with his sisters. And then the next morning, young love bloomed and they declared their love for one another, including the desire to marry. And this led to Randall McCoy disowning his daughter and devil ants refusing to allow the marriage because he said, I don't want to defy another man, even if that other man has disowned his daughter, I'm not about to defy another man in this area regarding his own daughter.

Okay. There's, I mean, there's a sense of propriety there, which is interesting considering devilance. Hatfield did not give a fuck about propriety when it came to land. Well, one is a business thing and the other one is personal. So like I can understand somebody, somebody having a very, a very, well, pronounced, I don't want to say strong, but a definite, personal code of ethics, right, that would make a distinction between those two spheres, like business is like war and whatever has to happen there has to happen there. But like, this is a matter of honor, because we're talking about an honor culture

here. And I'm not going to, I don't want to, I don't want the trouble that would be associated with that. And that seems to be, you know his his motivation is now his wife, Levi C Levi C Levi C Levi C um, she also refused because she didn't trust that their marriage would last because she knew her son. Um, yeah, and she thought ahead to actually what a child born of both of these kids who were actually adults would face being rejected by both clients. Yeah. Oh, were they? Uh, I believe, let's see, Rosanna died at 30 and John C was 28 when she died.

And she only died a couple years after that. So I think he was 26. She was 28 when they met. Really? They were that old. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of things she managed to make it that long without getting married off in this time and place. Like of people. Okay. Alright, I can see that. Yeah. I mean, well, I know, I have

acceptable people, because you know, starting to feud with others and. Yeah, right, there is that. Yeah. My my perception, and this is of course shaped by all of everything you're going to be talking about, about, you know, media media portrayals, my perception of this had been that they were, you know, 17 and 19 right or something like that. But she was younger of the two. Yeah, but holy shit. Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. So Levi C was like, yeah, if you have a child and neither clan wants you, y'all are going to starve. And given that vice, he didn't trust John C to stay the course, that meant that Rosanna would be alienated from her family with a child to feed and no male to bring in income. with a child to feed and no male to bring in income. So, Visee didn't turn Rosanna out and she and Johnson seem to enjoy the winter together

for a while. So she didn't kick her out. They kept her there, but no one are going to let you marry. All right. However, three of Rosanna's brothers, Tolbert, Famer, and Calvin, best as I could figure, found the two of them together, and then they arrested John C on an outstanding bootlegging warrant, which go to the Indy 500 and hand out tickets while you're at it. Yeah.

They were trying to take him to Pikeville, Kentucky to be charged. However, Rosanna rode to the Hatfields home and warned devil ants about what was going to happen. The result was that the Hatfields surrounded the McCoy brothers and they rescued John C. before he could be taken to Pikeville for that warrant. Okay. John C. and Rosanna continued to live with the Hatfields and Rosanna announced her pregnancy to them.

But the Hatfields again forbade the marriage certain that their permission would then provoke the McCoys. Yeah. So the result was that yeah. Like she's pregnant now. So at this point, provoking them like we don't want to do that because that it provoked the McCoys. That horse is already like like the barn door has been left open. That horse is already galloping at top speed. Yeah, that horse has sailed like To make cement for brilliantly Picture train is already out of the barns The horse and a little dinghy, you know, right?

I've got him like wasting the mizzo mast Yeah, he's way gone. Yeah, way gone. His friend Hans is just keeping time, you know, yeah. He's a clever one. A little, a little late for that, man. Yeah.

Like, okay. So yeah, pregnant Rosanna goes to live with her Aunt Betty in Stringtown, Kentucky, which is even further west and north into Kentucky. Now, this was west and north into Kentucky. Now, this was a common thing back then. It was a common thing up through the 50s. A pregnant girl would go live with an aunt somewhere, right? Yeah. And so she had the baby out of wedlock there in 1881. Now, while on again, off again, it's unclear what the relationship was. And I've seen competing claims all around. But what is for sure was that John C. and Nancy McCoy Rosanna's, uh, Rosanna's cousin and the daughter of Aissa Harmon McCoy, the one who had been murdered. Oh, oh, oh, my God. Really? John C. gets married to her in May of 1881. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. So not only can, can, can John see, not keep it in his

pants. Right. He seems to have a fetish for going after women that are literally going to get him and other members of his family killed. Yes. Like that, that is, that is, that is a thing for him. Yeah. And now he's 28, 29 in 1881, kind of depends on, you know, what record you believe. Nancy was just 16. Oh, shit. As if this couldn't get any uglier or worse. Okay.

So he's almost 30. Yeah. And his wife, when he actually like puts puts a ring on. Uh-huh. Is is a teenager. Yeah. Now that that age distance wasn't too uncommon at that time or for a while thereafter. Yeah. My grandpa was 23 and my grandma was 15 and I'm pretty sure they married when she was 16. Um, they'd go gone to have three children and, well, my grandma and grandpa went on to have three children. So did Nancy and Johnson through 1886.

Now, just real quick, Nancy is 16 in 1881, which means she was born in 1864. Right. Her father was killed in 1864. Right. Her father was killed in 1863, which means her father impregnated her mother and then died. Yes. Yeah. We, we, we, that's what happened. Like there happened like there's there I couldn't find any evidence of of Martha taking up with anyone else. Okay, all right, at least right not right around that time. So so her her her mother was pregnant with her when her father died. Yes, okay. Now her father was murdered. Yes, by the family of demands she went on to marry. Yes. OK.

Yeah. All right. Now, whether Nancy first agreed to be a go between for Johnson and Rosanna, and then he found comfort in her arms, or whether she sought him out in a plot, in a sinister revenge plot over the long haul, or something in between, I have no idea. It certainly is the popular myth that she was laying such a plot.

But I find it dubious, partly because she's 16, partly because, while bad feelings do tend to run deep and long with these two families, there's very little well thought out plotting that happens. They're not schemers. Right. Well, the seven months I would say was a scheme. Well, okay, yeah, but he's the only one. Yeah, and I would say was a scheme. Well, okay. Yeah. But he's the only one. Yeah. And I would say Perry Klein was good at pair. Well, living up to his name, parrying some of those schemes. Yeah. But there's no evidence that Nancy is

this Machiavellian. I'm honey trapping. No, he absolutely is way not like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And so when things get brutal, it's usually a very quick escalation or an attack of opportunity. It's not some slow burning plot. It's, oh, I ran into him and I stabbed him or, yeah, they chased him. Yeah, this isn't Lady Macbeth. Right. I mean, think about it. When when Famer Calvin and Tolbert found Johnson, they weren't hunting for him. They ran across him and they were like, Oh, shit, there's a warrant out for him. Let's get him. Yeah, it's like that, right?

Attacks of opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Secondly, because if you claimed that a 16 year old girl whose father died before she was ex-Udaro would not only be able to swear revenge Hannibal style at such a young age, but also be able to play a long game starting by marrying her cousin's baby daddy Paramore, that's pretty fucking ludicrous to the point of misogyny. Uh, yeah.

Yeah. Now, regardless, Nancy and Johnson are married in May of 1881. There is a marriage license for that his baby with Rosanna was born in February of 1881. So his baby was born and then February March April May three months later he marries Nancy. Now, I have no idea how much access he had to string ville Kentucky at that point. She's living further west than most of the McCoy's and he'd have to ride through that territory, which is not impossible, but certainly more difficult for him. And he would need to be able to parlay with his on again off again, whom he didn't marry and who was living with her older aunt, whose opinions on the matter may have differed from Rosanna's and John Cs. Yeah.

And where else would Rosanna go if she was turned out here? So even if she did want to see John C and her aunt disagree, it's not like she had the power to say, let him in. Yeah. And it's not like John C's family wanted her back. And John C himself seems to have been a bit of the burr under the saddle for his own parents. So could it be that he just gave up and struck up an easy and accessible relationship with a young and impressionable Nancy McCoy?

That's a reasonable set of assumptions. Mm-hmm. Now, by May of 1882, so a year after he's married to her cousin, his daughter Sarah Sally McCoy will die of the measles. Okay. Now, this is not where the feud ends, but I do want to take a few minutes to discuss why this particular part of the story, this ill-fated Star Cross lovers tale sees the imagination of people enough to be a popular movie in November of 1923. Okay. In March of 1923, Oklahoma signed a bill outlawing the teaching of evolution. And this was the first law of its type. And as you recall,

the 1920s were a time when science took hit after hit largely due to its abuse and misuse by eugenicists. Yes. In April of 1923, Warner Brothers incorporated as one of the first big studios in Hollywood. In May, the KKK kept pushing its limits. This time, defying a law that required its members to its membership roles to be published. Okay. Now, that's kind of a clannish thing to do, right? It's very secretive. And given the popularity of the KKK during this time of eugenics,

as well as the progressive movement, it's entirely conceivable that there was an undercurrent of tacit support of secretive behavior, again, kind of wetting the wick of us versus them thinking, right? In August of 1923, Warren G. Harding, an eminently corrupt president who could fuck like crazy. He, Warren G. Harding fucked. He was like, he had like secret areas to fucking.

Like there was a grandfather, you remember like in the TV show Webster where he could like go into the grandfather clock and his secret passage. Yeah. Harding had one of those in a house that he lived in for fucking. Um, so I didn't mean. Yeah.

Uh, so Warren G Harding, uh, he died in office. Now this sort of puts forth the idea that every generation or so America is going to lose a president because he died in 23. McKinley dies in 01,1, Garfield in 1881, Lincoln in 1865, somebody tried to kill Andrew Jackson in 1830, something. So this is kind of a thing. Now, it's not wholly destabilizing, but it is troublesome nonetheless. In October of 1923, Disney becomes a thing. A few years prior, we saw the Palmer raids and two years prior to this in August through September,

America saw the Battle of Blair Mountain. Yeah, okay. Now, I think I'm going to stop us there because that's a really good place to pick up on the next episode is the battle Okay, yeah, so I will I promise in the next episode I'll get back to the busher Keaton movie But so there you go so far Holy shit, whatcha thinking? just the

the Just the extent to which lots of people in this country have held onto ideas, mentalities, paradigms, whatever you want to say it, that they brought with them from the old world or literal generations You know, because because so much of this stuff is You know very clearly carried over from you know the Scott's Irish and and And culture like I would always there all of their stuff was was you know How all of that worked and it's I mean it's the same it's the same mentality. It's same It's the same culture. It's the same brand of machismo Yeah, and and just the, I wonder how much of it is that they came over here and found

themselves in very similar conditions that led to those things being perpetuated culturally. Yeah, I mean, because the people who moved in in this area were one in two generations away from the immigrants who came over here. Okay. So your McCoy's, your Hatfield, your Clines, your Mounds's, all of them were a couple generations removed. It wasn't just they came over from York and set up camp in Kentucky. That's not how they came over East Coast and set up camp in Kentucky. That's not how they came over East Coast

and ended up in like Western Pennsylvania. That's the furthest west most of them ended up. And then another generation later, they moved further west. Yeah. So yeah, I, you know, it's not just a, they recreated what they were going through. It's the, you know, they ended up finding themselves

in it again. Yeah. That's some of that might be due to the family values that were passed down at the table. Yeah. But, but yeah. So, and then, yeah, just on a, on an individual, uh, individual historical figure, uh, uh, level, the, the eldest son of, of the, of the Hat Hatfields just like you really have a type don't you do like that type is dangerous for you right. I mean I understand your choices might be kind of limited and okay maybe maybe the McCoy curls are just hot but really. maybe the McCoy curls are just hot, but really? Mm-hmm. Like, wow, talk about an inductive learner.

Uh, and we know this isn't gonna end well anyway. So yeah, that's, yeah. So that's kind of my takeaway. It's just holy crap, dude. Well, anything that you want to recommend to people? Not at the moment. I don't have a whole lot going on to be recommending. I will say that if you are listening to us,

you've found us somewhere already, whether that's on Spotify, the Apple podcast app, or on our website, which is www.gaykhistorytime.com. Wherever you have found us, please take the time to subscribe, give us the five-star review that you know Damien has earned with his sometimes sometimes quite painful research. And yeah, I don't have any place. I particularly want to be found right now. What about you? Well, I think I'm gonna recommend a book, but other than that, I'm gonna be fine.

Sorry, sorry. Sorry, yeah. Okay. That's all right. We've only been doing this for 240 episodes. Yeah. No, I'm gonna recommend the devil is here in these hills, West Virginia's coal miners and their battle for freedom because that'll be good reading for next week. Uh, when we really get into it.

Uh, but other than that, yeah, I don't need to be found right now. My show's on hiatus. Um, I'm going to start tracking when these shows will release because then I could be like, oh, go see our show now at this new venue. But yeah, it's going gonna be a bit before that. So, yeah, just go back and check out some of our older episodes. Honestly, here's a fun one. Go back to episode 46 where we actually talk about COVID

for the first time. Hey, see what we got right. See what we got wrong. There's, yeah, one of those lists will be a lot longer than the other one. You know, I had listened to it recently. Proud of our ability to use history to guide us actually. Okay, the rest of the country would have, but you know, I thought you were talking about we as a society, but No, no, no, no, you're a bus. Okay. All right. All right. Yeah. Cool. Anyway, well for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Laylock and until the next time keep rolling 20s.

Yeah, cool. Anyway, well for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Laylock and until the next time, keep rolling 20s.