A Geek History of Time - Episode 268 - The First Screwjob in Wrestling Part I

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Okay, so there's there there are two possibilities going on here. One you're bringing up a term that I have never heard before. The other possibility is that this is a term I've heard before, but it involves a language that uses pronunciation That's different from Latin it and so you have no idea how to say it properly an intensely 80s post-apocalyptic Schlock film and schlong film, you know, it's been over 20 years, but spoilers Okay, so so the resident Catholic thinking about that. We're going for low Earth orbit. There is no rational. Blame it on me after.

And you know I will. They mean it is two o'clock in the fucking morning. Where I am. I don't think you can get very much more homosexual panic than that. No. Which I don't know if that's better. I mean you guys are Catholics. You tell me. I'm just kind of excited that like you and producer George will have something to talk about

That basically just means that I can show up and get fed I'm going to go to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history and English teacher here in Northern California and you are? I'm Damian Harmony. I am a US history teacher up here in Northern California at the high school level And tonight I want to talk to you about screw jobs Hey now, you know Well, never mind I was gonna protest but we have a we already have a warning on our podcast You know rating so all right, let's set the way back machine to

November of 1997 okay, okay, Brett Hart Arguably the best wrestler of his generation Technical genius who could paint such stories on that canvas and I always loved that it's called a canvas Hmm. Um, he was taking on his kayfabe but also shoot nemesis Shawn Michaels Okay, so just for people to know k-fabe is the pretended reality Mm-hmm. What's happening out there you suspend your disbelief to believe it. Yeah, and then shoot is stuff that really happens Yeah, shoot shoot is no. No, we're really actually going to be

Wrestling. Yeah, this is this is really going to be an athletic competition here I'm really gonna try to you know or just I'm gonna punch you Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna full-on punch you in the goddamn face And so there's no difference between a working punch and a shoot punch to okay working punch is meant to look real Meant to convey emotion to the audience a shoot punches I'm gonna black in your eye. I'm gonna hit you yeah, so so Or I'm sure you're probably gonna say this, but I'm curious. Why why were these two? shoot nemesis

There was a lot that was going on um so essentially From from everything I've looked at, they worked themselves into a shoot. Oh, the kayfabe became the genuine reality. Yeah. Oh, wow. All right. So now Shawn Michaels is a once in a generation performer. He, at this time, he was ascendant. He was, I think, 33, 34 years old. He was ascendant. He was I think 33 34 years old. He was an incredible worker And an enormous pain in the ass to work with by all who knew him at the time He was essentially pure talent, but

Intolerable to work with by most people's accounts They would say I had the best matches with him and I couldn't fucking stand him like it was like that What what made him such a pain in the ass? drug problem, uh attitude problem, uh chip on his shoulder. He was a littler guy in a big man's world and um, he was an incredible performer And in in pro wrestling, I mean it is You are collaborating out there. you're cooperating out there, you're giving them your body to tell a story and you are trusting them. And at the same time, you two are kind of competing on some level to get yourselves

over. So it's this weird amalgam. Bush Cole kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. Now, Brett was a second generation talent His dad stewheart was a promoter and had been a pro wrestler since the 1940s And Brett understood the business of pro wrestling and its traditions better than almost anyone else in the companies that existed at the time

Like he came up in it. He was one of 12 siblings or 13 siblings All of whom were either wrestlers or married to wrestlers Wow. Yeah, talk about the family business Exactly You know, there's there's a movie that came out recently about the von erichs Yeah, and talk about a family that was cursed The Hart family also feels kind of cursed if you look through their history. Well, I mean, and I don't want this to sound dismissive, because I sincerely don't mean it

that way. But when you look at wrestling as a business, as an art, if that's what the family does, it would be really hard for that not to be that kind of situation. I mean, it's incredibly physically demanding. Right. It's psychologically demanding. And on top of the just the psychologically demanding, hey, I've got to go out there and perform

and I've got to keep track of, you know, my, my cues and all that. Um, it's also psychologically demanding on, on a, a level that like anybody who isn't in professional theater can't understand because you're operating on two levels of reality at once. And not only that, but you are physically being battered. Like it's so much worse than theater and pro sports. Because pro sports, you have an off season. Theater, you're not getting your ass kicked. That's true.

Wrestling has neither, it has both of those things. You were expected to be on the road. And they say that it's it's the Cashing creative is what drives people toward a place or away from a place and it's the miles That that keeps you from going on So yeah, Brett was actually leaving the WWF at the time for the WCW in December of 97. He'd signed a contract. There's actually so much going on around that. There's a wonderful documentary that came out at the time called

Wrestling with Shadows that details a lot of this. He'd already worked. So Vince McMahon at the time did not give guaranteed contracts. That was not his economic model. That's not how he was building things. WCW... We talked about the details of that before, but yeah. WCW did give guaranteed contracts. So Vince always said, I don't give contracts, I give opportunities. So the only guarantee you ever got with... I know, I know. We're all family here. Um, so There's so many things that like Capitalist gaslighting. Oh my god that phrase Wow, but um, so how to put this

He would give a guaranteed contract of 10 days per year. You were guaranteed to get to work 10 days at $150 a day. That's all the guarantee. Everything after that was discretionary and based on how well you were doing. And that was the model, which is, I guess, fine if you're working- $1500 a year. Right. And that's fine if you are working with independent contractors who get to go work wherever they want. But in order to work with him as an independent contractor. You couldn't work anywhere else It just it's it's it's the most again. It's kayfabe like it's the most kayfabe contracts that there were

Jake Roberts actually famously said kayfabe only worked on the boys in that it kept us all poor is what he was talking about so by by boys in that it kept us all poor is what he was talking about. So by Survivor Series, which is in 97, Brett had already worked his contracted dates with WWF by late November. And so he didn't have to show up to Survivor Series by contract. He didn't have to. But to Survivor Series by contract. He didn't have to. But he grew up in the business. This is how you do business. And he was finishing out the storyline between himself and Sean. And he couldn't stand Sean. And yet he's doing good business with him. Yeah, as a stand-up guy, he couldn't

walk away from it. Right. This is not how you do things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was still champion. So he could have just walked away with the belt and called it good. Now, in wrestling, when you are leaving a federation or a company, you tend to put other people over on your way out.

This gives you a revenge storyline if you ever come back, but also you want to leave the, it's camping, you want to leave it better than you thought, than you found it, right? So you're supposed to put people over, you're supposed to drop the belt on your way out, right? That's, if you're the champion, that's how it goes. But Sean had been such an asshole and had been so disrespectful to Brett. And again, there was a lot of back and forth between them,

but Sean straight, like Brett went to him at one point before Survivor Series and said, hey, I just want you to know, whatever's happened between us, you can always trust me to take care of you in the ring and you can always trust me to put you over. And Sean was not champion at the time, Brett was. Sean straight up said to him, I appreciate that,

but I wouldn't do the same for you. And Brett was like, man, fuck this guy. I'm not putting this fucker over at all. Yeah, I mean, again, like Sean was on so many uppers and he was on so many downers at the same time. Like he was cycling. And you know, there's a lot of body pain that comes with this job,

right, and this is before Sean fucked up his back, by the way, he doesn't fuck up his back till like January of the next year, and he needs to take four years off. Like he is running amok, he's just, all the pressure, all the immaturity, all of the lack of self-esteem being exploded out, all this stuff. And so he had been that disrespectful to Bret, he had been that disrespectful to the business and everyone else that he

actually told Bret that he's just never gonna job to Bret. So thank you, but I'm not doing that for you. And so Survivor Series is gonna be up in Montreal. There had been a storyline going where Brett and the other Canadian wrestlers were good guys everywhere but America. Right. And in Canada, oh my God, Canada loves the Hart Foundation. They love Brett Hart. And he's not even from Montreal, he's from Calgary,

but like Montreal- But he's a Canuck. Right, and Montreal fucking loves Canadian wrestlers like in the 80s when Hulk Hogan had gone up to Montreal To wrestle Dino Bravo who was definitely a bad guy Right Hogan got booed at at the pinnacle of Hogan's career Yeah, because that guy's our guy fuck you he's our guy at the pinnacle of Hogan's career. He gets booed because Dino Bravo. Yeah, because that guy's our guy.

Fuck you, he's our guy. Right, and Montreal, because K-Fabe. Yeah, to this day, Montreal still booes Sean out of the building. Oh, shit. Oh yeah. So, they're in Montreal for a Survivor Series.

Brett doesn't want to drop the belt to Sean for any number of reasons for a shoot. Like he legit doesn't, he's like, I will drop it to anyone else. And they're like, you can't choose who you're dropping it to. And actually he kind of could. He had something in his contract about reasonable creative control in the last 30 days.

But you get into litigation. Vince has a lot of lawyers. He's used them to threaten people before and since. And Sean genuinely, so the way that it used to be is if you don't wanna drop it, we're gonna put you against the guy who's gonna make you drop it. Sean didn't have the technical skills that Brett had.

So Sean couldn't go into business for himself and get Brett to drop it. Brett would have protected himself no problem. Sean was a better performer. Brett was a better wrestler. And the result was a different podcast than this one tonight though, because I'm not actually going to discuss the Montreal Screwdrop. I'm not going to discuss the story that captured my imagination and that I've read about and listened to countless interviews, takes, retellings, people who were there and people who were adjacent to it. I'm actually not going to talk to you tonight about the Montreal Screwdrop of 1987.

What the fuck, Brett? What the fuck? Like, all that, and no. No. Well, you know how I normally start a podcast where I tell you something way back in the past, and then I really, I went the other way. Okay. Because tonight I'm gonna talk to you about what was very likely the first screw job

in modern professional wrestling history. Oh, all right. Frank Gotch versus George Hackenschmidt in their return match in early September of 1911 at Comiskey Park in Chicago. Wow. Okay. So this is literally historically a deep cut. Yes. It's also a really deep cut on this podcast. Yes. because I recognize both of those names from from Lost cause and professional wrestling narrative. Yes, which is back in episodes five through nine. Thank you I was like episode four Alright cool. So yeah, Frank Frank

Frank gotch and gotch and Hackenschmidt. I remember the last time so I could remember which first Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt. And Hackenschmidt. I remember the last name so I could remember which first name I think. Alright. I'm going to start by saying that wrestling is fake. Okay. I don't know if you know that. I don't know if you know that I know that. You've made it pretty clear. Okay.

Like anybody who has listened to the Hulk Hogan episodes knows that Yeah. who who has listened to the whole Kogan episodes knows that you know we we recognize that that kayfabe is a virtual reality yes wrestling is an entirely meta construct yes yeah just like hamlet is fake yes we know that polonius is going to do the job to hamlet early on to set up the blow off at the end wherein laertes jobs out to Hamlet as well, but takes him out as well in a double countout. I love and hate that you managed to take possibly the seminal work of modern Psychological fiction mm-hmm and so accurately describe it using carny terms. Yep While we're at it Romeo and Juliet is also fake we know that Mercutio is just there to get Tybalt over so that Romeo is fighting up from the bottom against Tybalt and

Every time we see it We know that Romeo and Juliet will both do the job in their last man standing match where it'll end up in a double disqualification. Fuck you. Don't get me started on the promo that Mark Antony cuts on Brutus and Cassius either. That's a total fucking work and I think it's even scripted. The blinking. It's the blinking for me is you you I don't know if you just destroyed one half of my teaching career

or if you just enabled me to to completely shift the paradigm mm-hmm I'm going to use when I finally get the opportunity to teach Shakespeare cuz like I don't get to do it to sixth graders But oh my gosh I can tell you what matches to show the kids in advance of watching these things too Like there there are certain matches where like if they watch that match they will understand Shakespeare better Yeah Like if they watch that match, they will understand Shakespeare better. Yeah. And I'm sorry, but now now I can't I can't help but but picture. I can't help but picture. I come not to bury Caesar, come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

The cream of the crop gets stabbed from the top. Yeah, as Brutus is an honorable man. Like I can't. I could just see Viola as Hulk Hogan. Well, let me tell you something, brother. See, because in Twelfth Night, they're brother and sister. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Oh my God. No, no.

Iago's, Iago's whole scene shouting up to Desdemona's father. Yes is is is a work. All right. Now work is a promo is totally a promo Fuck yeah Oh, yeah, my have my brain be brussels. Yeah. Yeah, my brain has been broken now, baby Let me tell you this is spot. I see before me Yeah, my brain has been broken now. Baby. Let me tell you this is spot. I see before me Is this a bionic dagger I see in my hand yes Out damn spot. Yep. Yeah

So here's the thing it's it's not the contrivance and it's not even the planned endings that make wrestling such a fascination for me It's the morality plays that are told a hundred times over in different ways each time, but in the same way each time. That's what really catches me. It's a passion play. Yes, and given that the whole profession is geared toward a work by its very nature, professional wrestling is the biggest lie that's employed to tell the deepest truths to us, professional wrestling is the biggest lie that's employed to tell the deepest truths to us. And that's the point. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Shit. All right. It's it's contrived to look like a sport, but it's not a sport. And Roland. Oh, God, it's a French name. Umthes? Barthes? Barthes?

Barthes? Okay, B-A-R-T-H-E-S? Yes. I'm gonna say it's Barthes. There you go, roll on Barthes. Because the E-S, you drop the S and the E is pronounced. Of course, you know, like you do. Because, yeah.

He wrote a book in 1957 called Mythologies, and he stated that wrestling quote the virtue of all in wrestling is that it is the spectacle of excess Here we find the grand eloquence, which we which must have been that of ancient theaters and We know this is me talking now We know that the history of Greek theater was that it was a religious event me talking now, we know that the history of Greek theater was that it was a religious event meant to bring the communities together in a shared experience and release an orgy of faith, if you will. And I will, because they were worshiping the Dionysian phallus

with Apollonian devotion with Titanic landscape in the background. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like they were playing in front of various volcanoes oh Yeah, and and the or a picture show well. Yeah, it genuinely yeah, which is a whole other topic Yes But but the or a stea. Yeah, the most famous of the place cycles that that have survived down to us the most famous of the of the place cycles that have survived down to us, winds up being an explanation for how one of the temples in Athens is dedicated to the kindly ones who are a group of, you know, kind of also ran fertility goddesses. Right. And the story in the explaining, the mythic explanation of it in that in that myth cycle is no no they were originally the Furies

Mm-hmm, but you know through the and the and the large truth that gets told in that cycle is of the move away from an eye for an eye justice toward the idea of Well, okay. No, you have to take into account that Orestes was stuck in an impossible situation. Right. And so, so we have to have not vengeance, but justice.

And we have to ask the question, is this just? And so it's an entirely made up story that gets at a critically important truth for the development of society. Well, and I'll go you one further. It is a Dionysian enjoyment of it, of reenacting an Apollonian ideal. Ideal, yeah. So it's that tension point. I mean, they're literally marching through the streets worshiping giant cocks, too Yeah, like there are statues of the Dionysian phallus, right? That's there. It's for fucking that's what a penis is there for for them Right. Yes, and at the same time you follow the lines you do the thing we do the ceremony. That's very Apollonian

So intensely so yeah, and and therefore the release that is had is even greater for Dionysian and, and it fertilizes us as a society. It keeps us going. Yeah. And, and just as a side note, because we're, we're talking about wrestling and, and the spectacle of it all, good word, you know, and the, and the way that, you know, the example that always occurs to me is wrestlers secreting razor blades in order to bleed for dramatic effect and to get that catharsis from the crowd. The, the Furies in the Oristea were, of course, everybody wore masks, but the masks that the Furies, the furies were, were apparently so horrific and their costumes were so, so bleak and they had long stringing

ribbons for, you know, to simulate the snakes and their hair. That apparently when they performed one portion of the play in which the chorus came out and danced wildly as the fururies. It was such a horrific scene that children wept and pregnant women miscarried. Yeah. And like if that isn't the same kind of over the top. Exactly. Presentation that you know.

And it's over top in that spot. Yes. Like nowhere top in that spot like yes nowhere else in that spot and because you get to experience it in that contained it's that's the whole contrived thing yeah Bartay goes on to explain the difference between real wrestling and fake wrestling by the way quote wrestling is not a sport it is a spectacle and it is no more ignoble to attend a wrestled performance of suffering than a performance of the sorrows of Arnulf and Andromach. Okay, yeah.

Now, Andromach is a Frenchification of Andromache. Right. Andromache was a play by Euripides centering on Hector's widow Andromache. She was made slave to Achilles' son, Neo Ptolemus, after her own infant son, Schemandrius, nicknamed Asteanax. After he was thrown from the walls of Troy to his death after he was discovered hidden in his father's own tomb.

So now there's some debate as to whether Neo Ptolemus did the throwing or Odysseus did depending on the source because there's good sources. The argument for Odysseus doing it makes some sense to me given how pissed off Poseidon was at him. Poseidon being the god of cities and Troy just fell and Andromache could could, you know, ask him to curse. Yeah. So then again, though, I've read other versions where Neo Ptolemaeus Ptolemus, sorry, beat Priam to death in Hector's tomb using little Asteonix's body as a club, which.

My God, he's got a child. It's not directly mentioned in the Iliad at all. It's predicted only once in the last book of Homer's work, actually, and that's the source material for the French play. Okay. However, there are a number of what if episodes that others have written that Asteonix was actually replaced by a body double

that he'd actually survived. So, yeah. Okay. So now you could have a tag team of mass wrestlers and you don't know who's tagged in. Right. Now many of these sources are early European middle-age attempts, middle- Ages attempts to legitimize their state

by linking it back to the fall of Troy. Ostionax is, according to some, the founder of Corsica and Sardinia, if he had lived. If he's been killed, he can't be that founder. The one that I found first was that he was the progenitor of the Merovingian dynasty, having made his way west like all the other fucking Trojan has-beens had done and settling in wherever the fuck. OK. There are so many, our place was the other place founded

by lost Trojan stories in Europe, that it's like people claiming Cherokee princess heritage in America. Well, OK. So I had a historiographical question about that. Sure. Those stories about, oh hey, you know, we were founded by, you know, an exiled Trojan noble prince, whatever. How how far after, now I'm forgetting the

Roman story. Aeneas. Yeah, Aeneas. Yeah. How long after the Aeneid do we see these ideas coming up, like, with the Merovingians and with all of them? Is this a couple of centuries? I assume this is post them having had contact with Rome. Yes.

The one that I found was the Chronicle, the chronicle of Fredegar, which was a Burgundian seventh century chronicle. Okay. Only named for Fredegar about a thousand years later. Right. Like so. Yeah. It was written in the six hundreds. Yeah. Um, and then a thousand years later, they're like, Oh, that's Fredegar's. Right. Yeah. Well, because that's how shit happened back then. And, one asteonics who was really scum andrus Changed his name to bronchus like you do like yeah, like you do. Yeah, obviously Okay, so this is this is all way post Germans meeting Romans. Yeah, I mean it's not having not as close to the event to say writing 80 years after

Okay, you heard it from a guy who had written it down 40 years after something happened. Yeah. All right. And in book two of Fredegar's chronicle, the authors of the chronicle, and I'm going to say authors, the authors of the chronicle of Fredegar establish that the ancient eventual legitimacy of Charlemagne comes back from this. Well, yeah, because the farther back you can point, the longer the dynasty is,

the longer the dynasty is, the more legitimate. Yeah, I mean, that's- And I mean, Virgil literally did this with Augustus, so it's really not ridiculous so much as it is homage. Yeah. So anyway, this is not the greatest Trojan Trojan source story ever written. This is a tribute. Right. So we can fast forward to the French play by Jean Racine.

It's called Andromach, right? And it's about Ostionix's mama based on the Euripidean play Andromache. And they're tragedies of a mother grieving and asking the sea god, in this instance it was Thetis, for protection. Her life sucks. Hermione is a bitch to her. And eventually, Neo-Petalamus is killed by Orestes, speaking of which. Oh, hey.

To whom Hermione, the daughter of Menelaus, was originally betrothed. In the French version, it's roughly the same, but it's focused more on the Tom loves Sally, who loves Jim, who loves June, who loves Tom aspects of it. It's this round robin. Yeah. Yeah. Love dodecahedron.

Yeah. Orestes is hot for Hermione She herself is hot for Neil Ptolemy who is also called purists who is in turn hot for andromachy or andromach Who herself is devoted to Hector's memory and trying desperately to keep osteonics alive Okay add to this that in French Add to this, in the French version, that there's also a debate over what to do with Ostionics. Pyrrhus, who is usually called Neopetalmais, is told to kill the child, but he loves Andromach, so he doesn't want to. But meanwhile, Orestes hopes that Pyrrhus, please never, Neopetalamanes is my grandfather's name, will refuse to kill the child so that

Hermione will no longer be betrothed to Pyrrhus and then get betrothed back to Orestes and then travel home to a Greek place with him. Right. Pyrrhus refuses at first to kill the child, hoping that that will seal the deal with Andromach, but she rejects him and then Pyrrhus does what any good Greek would do, he threatens to turn Ostionix over to the Greeks to be killed. Yeah, well, having been teaching Ancient Greece for several weeks now in my classes, that's actually what a Greek probably would have done.

Right. Now, this is all a French retelling of it in the 1600s and the 1500s. Yeah. Meanwhile, Orestes chats up Hermione, convincing her to leave with him if Pyrrhus will allow it, since Pyrrhus isn't really hot for Hermione anyway. However, Pyrrhus, without much warning or motivation, announces to Orestes that he has decided to marry Hermione and he will give Ostionyx to Orestes as a weird consolation prize. It's not really clear. There's no championship belts involved, so I don't quite understand this feud. So it's difficult for you to follow. A little bit, a little bit.

That's the nice thing about a championship belt. Anyway, Orestes is super pissed off over having lost Hermione for good since she's getting married to Pyrrhus, and Jermach in turn, seeing that she's going to lose her son, begs Hermione to convince Pyrrhus to spare Ostianix. However, Hermione, clearly the long burn heel, refuses for no reasons given. Now she's been written as super bitchy and high on herself, but there's still no logic to it. Pyrrhus then tells Hermione that he'll gladly reverse his decision if Andromach will marry him, just like Cain did with Leta and Matt Hardy, because that's not fucked up at all.

No, not at all. Now, Andromach evidently has qualms about this and doesn't decide right away. However, she does figure it out. She'll marry him, Pyrrhus, to save her son and then commit suicide as soon as the wedding's over. Aha! Well, there you go. This way she stays faithful to Hector by not being despoiled by another man and her son won't be killed because he is now the legitimate son of Pyrrhus. Okay, all right. So, of course, now Hermione is insulted and pissed off in a way that only a woman written by a Greek playwright then

modernized by a 17th century Playwright could be so she turns to her formerly betrothed And sets Orestes up to avenge her massive rejection and insults by Pyrrhus by killing Pyrrhus Which of course I don't have to tell you is like when mr Fuji found the powers of pain and use them to get revenge on demolition for leaving him right right yeah 100% yeah clear clear parallel there. Yeah. Less face pain in this play though.

Which is saying something. Right. Now of course Hermione has troubles with this after all. She is the Elizabeth to Pyrrhus' macho man. So she feels bad for sickening Orestes on him. However, before she can reverse the effort, Orestes shows up and announces that Pyrrhus is dead. However, because it's not a good play

unless there's another swerve, it was not at Orestes' hand. Orestes' fellow Greeks were pissed when Pyrrhus went and recognized Asteonix as the king of Troy, and that's what got him killed, so now he's kicked out of the stable. Hermione cuts a promo on Orestes and runs off to kill herself on Pyrrhus's body. Orestes loses it and curtain. Wow. Yeah. Andromach changed French tragedy from melodrama to tragedy

about love. Central to the whole thing is everyone's passion for each other and it's one of the few French tragedies to never really lose steam over time Yeah, except that ending is It's a bit over swerve kind of shit like like narratively. That's that's a crap ending But that's not the point of the play the point of the play. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I understand that but you know it's like criticizing blazing saddles or Money Python the holy grail for having a shit ending it's like well, okay number one they ran out of money number two They are ideas number three. Okay, it's about the bits Yeah, right. Yeah. All right

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Bartey references this as well as the frustrations of Moliere's Arnolf, the protagonist in the School for Wives. He is a venal old man who grooms a gal from the age of four until 17 when he'll marry her. So it's essentially like predicting Grover Cleveland, only to have all of his schemes fall apart at the very end, thank goodness for her. We have between those two, the tragic face and the frustrated heel. Tragedy and humbling, two very important aspects of the story that is told in the squared circle. So that's Andromache and Arnauf.

Now he says, now Barthé says, quote, "'Thus the function of the wrestler is not to win. "'It is to go exactly through the motions "'which are expected of him. "'Wrestling offers excessive gestures "'exploited to the limits of their meaning. "'In wrestling, a man who is down is exaggeratedly so "'and completely fills the eyes of the spectators

with the intolerable spectacle of his powerlessness. So once again, we use the word spectacle that you brought up. Yeah. That's professional wrestling. Now, Barthe is saying this in the 1950s. This is after wrestling has become a TV thing. Yeah, yeah. But I think that this quote by Barthé is what we're going to spring forward from to understand what is going to happen by 1911.

Now, what happens when the audience is set to go on that journey and the players, wrestlers and the managers and the referees and even the bookers are set to give them that journey. to give them that journey and then it goes other than they'd agreed upon. What happens? How does something that is so contrived end up being something so very real and yet maintain these the very thin scrim of pretense in front of an audience paying to see this play out in a way that may be and often should be unexpected but is still wholly understood as necessarily so? That's what fascinates me about a screw job. Okay. expected but is still wholly understood as necessarily so. That's what fascinates me about a screw job. Okay. And tonight and probably a few more nights,

no again, we're gonna talk about screw jobs. Specifically, I'm just gonna focus on this one, but this will be a long running series. I will from time to time dip into, you know, here's three more episodes about a screw job in 1922. You know that's okay. Yeah. Yeah So that's what gets me about a screw job though. It's um we the audience know what's supposed to happen and it's supposed to come off spontaneous and Yeah, the wrestlers know what's supposed to happen and their job is to make

it look spontaneous. Right. And the bookers have booked it to happen in such a way that makes us want to come back to watch what's going to happen next because look how spontaneous it was. And the referee is there to keep up the order against which the hero will struggle and the villain will hide behind spontaneously. And yet, yeah, the, the referee is the symbolic Apollonian figure. Oh, he's the, he is the incompetent state. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Straight up. Like, okay. Yeah. There you go. You know, the ineffective vice principal yes yeah but here's the thing all of these things are supposed to look spontaneous and then

when somebody decides to go off script and it's not that every single move is planned out or anything like that yeah yeah it depends on the rest of the story and the times the story beats are scripted and if somebody goes I'm not gonna take the narrative in that direction exactly then it is truly spontaneous and it is truly a problem and the only way the whole Organization right and the only way to make the audience want to come back is to find some way to make this spontaneity Look like it was the spontaneity that they were paying to see the whole time and still

Expected result right? We met that to happen weird, right? Yeah There's there's this Remarkable Like there's it turns into a situation where there are multiple layers of meta narrative. Mm-hmm like at being a wrestling fan, you and you know, other guests that we've had on the show who've been wrestling, wrestling folks, you all know what the tropes are. You all know, like in any given situation, okay, there's like three different ways the story, the story tree can go. Right.

Right. We're, we're in this place here and we've seen this narrative spot here, you know, X number of times before and we know the lore. And so, so the question for the audience isn't, oh my God, what's going to happen next? That is, that is the way the question is phrased, but what the question actually is is which story branch are we gonna see happen this time? How, you know. It feels like you're riding a roller coaster.

Yeah. You can see where the rails are gonna go, and you're still scared as you go. Yeah. You still feel like it's the first time, even though it's the 50th. Yeah. It's wild. So the first screw job that I found, uh, was after wrestling largely stopped

being the maybe real, maybe not for most big shows. So there's this thing that happens where wrestling was, professional wrestling was a traveling carnival based occupation. Which means in many ways it was always a work as I discussed I think in episodes 5 through 11 somewhere around there. That is what sells tickets is drama. What brings people back next time is the belief that something might change next time. So you have to leave them thinking that there's a chance, right?

Yeah. But at the same time, you have to have the ability to legitimately beat the toughest guys in every town that you stop at. You have to be able to shoot. Right. In order to work. In order to make it literally work. Right. So you have to have people who can put on a show but who can also legitimately win and sometimes you only focus on the winning. Other times you can do both and sometimes you can plant a guy in the audience to make

it look like your traveling champion could get beat by anyone, raise the stakes and then have him legit beat people after. You could work them in or you could shoot them into a work or you could work them into a shoot. Anyhow, by 1911, professional wrestling was in its adolescence. And there was clearly a ton of spectacle as Barthé had later lauded in 1957. Because this sold tickets, because this drove interest, and it brought in plenty of opportunity to turn a shoot into a careful work if done right. So let's talk about George Hackenschmidt. He was born in 1878 in Estonia,

which Estonia is one of the Iron Curtain countries eventually You know, there's a let's I almost want to have the area Latvia Estonia Lithuania Lithuania Yeah, so and it goes in alphabetical order, which is nice but yeah but His parents were entirely mundane as folks go but his mother's father was evidently really beefy. And evidently from the very beginning, George Hackenschmidt was super interested in physicality, taking full advantage of everything

that was offered at his school. And according to various biographers, Hackenschmidt was able to awe his teachers by lifting a small horse. Wow. Yeah. And now in that area, there were a lot of ponies. Like to get through the pre-op at Marrish's you needed ponies. They had wider feet. They had smaller body

mass. But so lifting a small horse was a thing he could do. And two different accounts said that he could put 200 pounds above his head. Or one account said he could put 276 above his head one-handed. Okay. Now, at my heaviest, I was 276. Gee, many Christmas. He could lift a pandemic-sized Damien above his head with one hand. Wow. Yeah.

That's kind of terrifying. Boy, that's kind of terrifying boy. Howdy So after high school George Hackenschmidt went to find work in the Lausman factory maintaining his amateur love of sport on the side He went many he won many cycling competitions for the revel or reval athletic and cycling club Until the colder months settled in and then he would turn to weights. So he's all about physical. Evidently he's one of the early adopters

and popularizers of the bench press as well as the inventor of the hack squat. Really? Yeah, well, hack squat, hack Schmidt. Now for folks that don't know what the hack squat is, is if you put the barbell behind you, okay, at your ankles, you reach down, you grab the barbell and you stand up. So it's not a deadlift because you're not going from 90 to 180, you're dipping down, squatting and pulling it up behind you. Evidently that was his thing. So in 1896 George Hackensmith wowed onlookers at the Revelle Athletic and Cycling Club

festival with a one-armed shoulder press. So basically you got the weight at your arm yep and you just push it straight up he started at 145 pounds and did that 12 times. At my maximum at my peak when I was lifting weights five days a week in college at 22 okay I never put more than 170 up 175 up with two hands yeah Now upper body strength has never been my strength. I was a lower body guy, but still, he's putting up 145 12 times and he worked his way up to 198 three times one handed and he did 214 once. Yeah, that's like there there are there are guys that could audition to play the Hulk on Muscle Beach who who can't do that. Right. Like that's yeah, my gosh. Okay.

And in his book, and he's written, I think, close to a dozen books in almost as many languages, but he wrote a book called The Way to Live, which I read all the way. George Hackenschmidt detailed how he wowed the crowd. He said, quote, with one hand lifting weight slowly from the ground by the strength of biceps, I raised a weight of 125 pounds with the right hand and of 119 pounds with the left. Okay. Now, later that year, Hackenschmidt, so 1896, later that year, George Hackenschmidt met

a traveling wrestler named George Lurich, L-U-R-I-C-H. Met him in Raval. We now know that town is Tallinn now, Tallinn, Estonia. And from Hackenschmidt's own essay in Praise of Lurich, he said, quote, I was more than mighty pleased to get such a chance to wrestle Lurik, and I was determined to do my very utmost. The first bout must have been a surprise to him, for it lasted more than an hour.

I defended myself for all I was worth, and Lurik was unable to get me from a standing position to my knees. The second affair was again by no means to his liking, though he managed to get the decision of the judges in spite of prolonged protestations from the audience. I might tell you these two bouts surprised me as much as they did Lurik, for, rightly or wrongly, I got the impression that I was distinctly the stronger man naturally this encouraged me to pay more attention to wrestling so an hour of wrestling strength against strength my god so without getting too personal yeah um what's the period of time you like for fucking?

Right? Because this goes to anybody. Full body workout, all the muscles engaged. Right, like, right. And fucking is a lot of fun. Big fan of fucking over here. Oh yeah, oh. One of my favorite towns in Austria, right? Yes.

And also sex is pretty rad. I recommend people give it a shot. Yeah. For an hour some people will be like, dude, tap me out. I'm done after 20. And that's one of the best feeling things there is. Yeah. This dude wrestled another guy strength for strength trying to keep from being driven to his knees, which by the way, that's Congress of the cow. And he, for an hour, they... Wow! Number one, I can only imagine that, I mean, obviously they're both in peak physical condition. And I can't imagine either of them was over 40.

Oh, no, no. This is Hackenschmitt's in his 20s. Yeah. I'm even thinking of Lurik. Lurik, I think, was in his 30s. Like, Lurik was a bit older than Hackenschmitt. Okay. But because, you know, at my current age, my joints start to tell me, you know, it's time to tap out. Like, you know, it starts to click, you know? Yeah, yeah. The spirit is willing, but the joints are borderline arthritic. Like, you know, I really want to keep going but it's just not no it's not feasible. Yeah Yeah, when I I wrestled my freshman year of high school, huh? Not professional of course style. It was Greco-Roman, you know, right style stuff, but our

our conditioning all of the training that we did Was based on the idea that a bout or one round of a bout was gonna last nine minutes. There you go. It was we are gonna we are going to do stair climbers and you know run you at you know top speed to get your heart rate up and keep your heart rate up and you need to keep your heart rate up and maintain for nine minutes. Maximum effort for nine minutes. Yeah. And let me tell you as a 14 year old with all of the energy in the world, that was miserable, right?

So I can't even imagine an hour. Yeah. Now other accounts other than Hackenschmidt's actually have him realizing that he can't beat Lurik and that Lurik may have actually been stronger than Hackenschmidt was, which makes sense. A guy in his 30s will probably be more powerful than a guy in his 20s if only because his technique will be better. But also, you're close to max horsepower when you hit 30.

But the result was predictably the same. The traveling wrestler saw something in this local fellow whom everyone knew and asked him to join him. Now according to Hackenschmidt he could easily get Lurik to his knees but he couldn't figure out any way to throw the guy. He spent the night figuring something out and Lurik was shocked the next day when Hackenschmidt figured out how to throw Lurik forcing him to his shoulders. Quote, I treated him to it twice then still on our knees Lurik asked me to swear never to use this hold on any occasion whenever or wherever we met in

competition. I am convinced that these defeats were the cause of his refusing to wrestle with me in later years. Oh. Now this could be Hackenschmidt doing puffery. Well, yeah. But also his is the only clear source on the meeting. So I kind of I'm stuck with just, you know, a the opposite of dearth of sources. Yeah. In February of 1897, George Hackenschmidt met another wrestler.

Lord Jesus. Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Wla Pylanszyski? Pylanszyski? P-Y-T-L? Pytlanszyski? Pytlanszynski. Okay. This was another European wrestler, Polish, obviously, from what, intense match order that caused Lurik to leave town immediately in shame. Wow, really? Yeah. Because, I mean, you make your money based on being undefeatable, right? Right, yeah, yeah.

These are all guys that are shooting against each other. Yeah. Lurik and Hackenschmidt would not cross paths for another three years when Hackenschmidt finally traveled to a place called Chemnitz and found Lurk trading on the idea that he'd actually defeated the now famous Hackenschmidt in a number of unofficial matches in Raval.

Okay. So he's, I think, I think Chemnitz is in Germany proper. Um, and Hackenschmidt gets there and he finds that Lurich has been like, I'm, you've all heard of Hackenschmidt. I defeated him when no one knew who he was. And you know, come and see me and buy tickets and shit like that. So Hackenschmidt challenged Lurich to an impromptu match.

He's like, Hey, quote, as a rule, I had no great to an impromptu match. He's like, hey, quote, as a rule, I had no great liking for impromptu challenges, yet in view of Lurk's continuous and brazen puffing, I could not refrain from challenging him to a match. Oh wow, so. The show's up. I, yeah. You know, you've been saying you beat me?

Let's do it again. Heard he was talking shit. Right, it's a Gwen Stefani moment. Yeah. So, I found a newspaper from September 21st, 1900. The... Oh God, why did I do this episode? So many names. The Algemein Zeitung, specifically.

Algemein? Al... Algemein? Algemein Zeitung specifically. Algemein? Algemein? Algemein? It's got the like the state of Maine, but Algem in front of it. Algemein Zeitung. Algemein? Algemein? Yeah, that. That. Sure. Okay. So specifically was the issue. Lurik turned down the challenge, citing complicating reasons to the crowd's loud dismay. Yeah. Yeah, complicating reasons like, you a bitch.

I can hear the commentary. And of course, this is 19 what now? 1900. Yeah. So it would, I mean, they wouldn't have said it that way, but like that's what it meant right well Here's what it actually said here's here's what the newspaper said quote Cries of come out shame swindle were quickly heard mingled with whistling and catcalls enough to make one's flesh creep all this was directed against the

against the invincible Hare Lurik, who we are informed has caused similar scandals in other towns such as Elberfeld where the competitors in the international wrestling contests were unfortunately prevented by the terms of their engagements from exposing the Russian in the manner adopted on Wednesday. Even the management of the Mosella Seal, this is the club that Lurk had been featuring at, failed to persuade Lurk to meet Hackenschmidt. Presumably, Lurk would not be allowed to appear again

until he had wrestled with Herr Hackenschmidt, who is ready to meet him on any evening. Even the reporters are cutting a promo. Like, he's waiting for a man like when I wait for you man When I say that professional wrestling has always been this way. I mean it has always been this way That's that's that's 1900s era right whenever you want man, uh-huh I'm right here. Yeah Here's what Hackenschmidt had to say about the whole thing.

Quote, that had followed his defeat by Ilasinski, I suspect that his action was due to an innate mental instability such as underlies some men's makeup. Fellows with a distinct though hidden inferiority complex can at times prove to be brilliantly courageous and persevering as Lurik on more than one occasion was. In Hamburg, he was an absolute champion, really excelling in wrestling and winning

every one of his matches in faultless style. Wow. That's a remarkable way of... I made that bitch ass leave. Yeah. And he's a badass. Y'all saw he was a badass in Hamburg. He was badass, but it was me. I made the badass at Hamburg bitch out Wow when I say that professional wrestling has always been this way this way, I mean it has always been this way

Now Like okay, so so there's a question that I have though is sure modernly Mm-hmm that behavior is chicken shit heel territory. 110% chicken shit heel territory. Yes. This is why you have cage matches. Yeah. So that the heel can't just run out. Can't just flee. Yeah. But within the context of where the state of the sport was in 1900 when when all of this was going on. Was that. Potentially a kayfabe.

Or was that really like, oh, shit, he's here. I'm I can't, you know, like there's no way there's there is literally no winning this like he's he's I know he's gonna beat me if I get beaten I'm fucked If I leave I'm fucked, but if I leave I'm at least gonna be fucked without like joint damage and bruising You know what I mean? I do when an actor cries on stage. Are they really crying? Okay, good point. It's it's that's point. When I say that wrestling has always been this way. I mean that wrestling has always been this way. Whether it was a work or a shoot, and honestly the result doesn't matter.

You know, in terms of it being a work or a shoot, I'm gonna assume that this was all shoot stuff. People who were working would later on be like, that's gonna fucking make money. Well yeah, okay now lurk story ends rather sadly He was in st. Petersburg and southern Russia with another professional wrestler named Alexander aberg With whom he performed in the u.s. From 1913 to 1917, which is a really good time to not be in Europe Yeah in fact

Lurk was Frank gotch's last opponent ever and lost to him in Kansas City. Oh, really? Mm hmm. So he and Alexander Aberg come through Russia to Tallinn, Estonia, where they performed in a wrestling tournament that got called off due to the advance of German troops. Hard subject to change. Clearly. And from there, they fled to St. Petersburg and remained in the region because that's a safe place to go

when the Russian civil war broke out into the area. Yeah, that's not, it's not great. It gets worse because Aburg and Lurik end up stranded in Armavir and were unable to flee across the Black Sea. And unfortunately, the fighting had reached that town and the winter was warm. And that means an outbreak of typhus and no medical aid. Aburgh and Lurik both contracted it and would die within a month of each other. And they actually end up being buried in the same grave together.

Wow. Yeah. Now back to Hackenschmidt. Yeah. You get the feeling that this guy knew how good he was, but more importantly, he got that wrestling wasn't his main moneymaker. His words were his main moneymaker. You talk him into the building. Right, right. His words, which were then backed up by feats of strength, but it's his words, right?

It's his bard levels. Yes. I now want to create that character. Half bard, half champion fighter. Half monk? Oh champion fighter. Now while in England touring the Catch is Catch Can tournaments, which is different than Greco-Roman tournaments. Right, right, right. Hackenschmidt was managed by a guy named C.B. Cochran, who was a vaudeville actor turned producer who was also a press representative for a flea circus, a medicine show, a rodeo,

as well as many boxing and wrestling shows, actual theater, a fountain pen salesman at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, and the hype man for the Russian lion, George Hackenschmidt. So, so what we're saying is this this guy is is died in the wall, Carney. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes Okay, Wilson Phillips called and said you know what keep the name

We'll rename her something else. We're fine. Yeah. Okay. Yeah now together CB Cochran and and George Hackenschmidt the Russian lion revitalized the wrestling world in England, creating the music hall wrestling boom that served as the model for the US professional wrestling in the early 20th century. Okay. Now, it was around this time, so we're talking the early 1900s, that Teddy Roosevelt famously quote quipped, if I wasn't president of the United States, I would like to be George Hackenschmidt.

Okay, I remember that quote. Yeah. Now in his book, The Way to Live, Hackenschmidt detailed that after he'd beaten a guy named Antonio Pieri, who was known as the terrible Greek, and he'd beaten him twice, Pieri, quote, set himself to work to unearth a wrestler who could beat me. And before very long, he introduced to the British public a Turk named Ahmed Madrali, a man of gigantic strength, who boomed in every possible manner as being a better man than myself. Now, according to Hackenschmidt, Madrali continued to dog him for a while until Hackenschmidt answered the challenge at the Olympia in London.

This was a very common thing. Now wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, I mean Greco-Roman, right? So you're right there in Greece, right across from Greece is Turkey. There's a huge tradition in Iran, in Iraq, and in Turkey, and Anatolia, all that shit. You've got so much wrestling there, so much grappling. In fact, one of the coaches for the American Olympic team in 1952, I think it was 52, was a man named Cosgrove Pallawi.

You might know him as the Iron Sheik. Yeah. He was a coach from Iran. A, and, and a, and a, no kidding, okay, no, Olympic. Yeah. Olympic level shoot wrestler. Yeah. Wow. And by the way, I think he was a bodyguard for the Shaw at one point. Well, you said his last name is Pallavi? Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. Well, that's, that's the Shaw's last name too. Oh, I might've mixed them up then. Okay. All right. Yeah. I, I can, I can find the Iron Sheik's last name too. Oh, I might have mixed them up then. Okay. All right Yeah, I can I can find the iron sheik's last name later or you can look it up

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know how common the last name was or it's entirely possibly might have been a you know Distant right of the family, but yeah, but anyway, George Hackenschmidt said quote Um a huge audience had assembled when the Turk entered the ring with Antonio Pieri whilst I was accompanied by Koch Jacobus Koch and he had wrestled all over Europe and were fond friends as it seems Okay Hacken and and this is pretty normal like you you again. You've got guys that you wrestle You've got guys that you're better than you've got guys that are better than you you run The circuit some nights you win some nights you lose Hackenschmidt never fucking lost, but there you go So

What okay? So yeah, they were fine friends, so he was there with Koch as it oh um is a Hussein Cosgro all of a Siri. That's all okayaziri. I mixed it up with Pallavi, yeah. Yeah, all right. All right, so Hackenschmidt said, quote, the contest as will be remembered was a very brief one. As on Madrali making a move for my waist, I dashed in and lifting him off his feet,

threw him onto his shoulders. Unfortunately, he fell on his arm and as this was dislocated, he was unable to continue the contest. But luckily was able to begin wrestling again three months later. The bout lasted a total of two minutes. Oh, so you're going to send somebody to take me out, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Two minutes later.

Bam. I don't think so. What I love here is he does take the time because he's a baby face. He takes the time in his book to say, luckily for him, he was able to get back to work right away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Crisis averted. Like, you can't help but think, oh, what a nice guy.

But also, like, Fieri was like, and we've seen this. We've seen wrestlers in the modern era take out a bounty on a wrestler and be like, $10,000 to whoever can injure him by the time of war games and shit like that. We've seen that or like, I can't beat you, but I know someone who can and then they hit the music and shit like that, right?

We've seen this. And then for you to just like, I mean, this is Iron Man versus the rock guy, or not Iron Man, I'm sorry, Thor versus the rock guy in the second Thor movie, where he just goes up and just smashes him. Yeah. Yeah.

So two minutes later, he shows his, and again, oh my God, they got the terrible Turk, which there were like 50 terrible Turks, by the way God, they got the terrible Turk, which there were like 50 terrible Turks by the way, but they got the terrible Turk and he's here and he's going, Oh my God, he's, he's spitting nails and like, it's over in two minutes. Like just like Tyson level shit. You know? Yeah.

And, and on the one hand, I kind of have to wonder if engagement might not have been disappointed by that because on like you win because you know this this is this is the legend you're sending after me and right now come on give me a real challenge if you're gonna make all these claims but by the same token how much more money how much more? Tension would there be yep if if you had actually been able to make the fight last longer Well, and I think this is one of those instances of people were paying to see him dominate. They were not paying to see the Okay, all right So it was on this tour in England the catches catch can Catch Can tour, that Hackenschmidt really started leaning into the work part of his shoots though.

Under the tutelage of CB Cochran, he started to let his opponents stretch the matches on for a little bit. He would start to liven things up. He would use more spectacular rather than sound efforts. He'd make a big show about going around the guy and failing and succeeding and failing again and then finally I'm gonna throw the guy He his supreme food, right? Yeah

His supreme confidence worked in his favor Hackenschmidt would let a local competitor last the 10 minutes Like if you can last for 10 minutes for George George Hackensmith, you can get $25 he would let him last that long and get the purse and Then be like it's really good. Why don't you come back on Friday? Let's make a real go of it He still beat the guy, you know, yeah didn't defeat him in 10 minutes, right? Yeah, and then the guy comes back on Friday It's just like now

we've gotten people's money twice nice right yeah and people have told their friends it hurts this is a guy that might beat the Russian lion oh my god we didn't think he had a chance yeah we should all go down there yeah let's have a good old time yeah the only time he got pushed hard to win fast was when he would feel that he was going against an equal. So it makes sense that he beat the terrible Turk, that particular terrible Turk. Right away. Right away. And the problem was that's so rare that Hackenschmidt begins to slow it down, and he slows down in his ability to adapt to people as well.

So he's still shooting, but it's a bit of a work. It's one of those, you go up the stairs in your combat boots, you come down the stairs in your slippers, right? Right, yeah, yeah. So he's starting to be lulled into security by his own capabilities. Now according to biographer David Gentle, quote,

George Hackenschmidt was the epitome of calm, self-assurance, and inner peace, with full awareness of his own capabilities, and thus, like all masters of combat, found no need for machoism or outward aggression. His tactic to win was skill and speed, born of confidence in his own ability and fighting prowess. So, he is the most skilled guy.

You go there to see the technical, sound, strong capabilities. And he was known to be a really nice guy. He was also known to be incredibly educated. He sounds like it. Yeah. He sounds like it. Yeah, he was at once as home with gardening philosophy book writing and professional wrestling like He's the samurai who gardens, right? Yeah, he sounds almost like Doc Savage

Doc's oh yeah proto proto superhero right old figure like you know he's he's the greatest He's the greatest wrestler in the world you know has this amazing superhuman You know or peak fit peak human physicality right their capability And you know he's also fluent in you know ten languages, and you know right is a board certified neurosurgeon like you know Could be the Doc Savage was kind of based on George Hackenschmidt could be yeah I'd have to look at the timeline on it but yeah I mean it kind of sounds like there there might have that might have planted the idea right now Hackenschmidt loved the theory of fitness and he made a good amount of money off of selling postcards of

himself posing and various books now in05, George Hackenschmidt defeated Tom Jenkins for the second time in three years, this time at Madison Square Garden. Oh wow. Yeah, now it was after this bout that he, George Hackenschmidt, was declared the world champion at wrestling, and it is this titling, this claim in 1905, that the NWA took its legacy from

So when you hear about the NWA championship and how it's over 100 years old This is why he defeated Jenkins and that made him champion Hackenschmidt had already been declared the Greco-Roman world champion in 1902 after defeating Tom Cannon in London So in some ways this unifies the Greco-Roman and the Catches Catch Can titles, which were entirely made up, but it's one of those like, nobody can beat you, right? Now, unfortunately, the various promotions claim

different lineages to this title, and so it's a fairly non-linear history. For instance, the NWA title that I'm referring to, the thing that would become that was vacated from 1913 to 1914 and a lot of this episode's topic is actually going to specifically revolve around the title changes that come before that. Anyway, we have the actual champion established by his defeat of Tom Jenkins, who'd later be a good friend of George Hackenschmidt's and Would tour with him around the grounds of West Point where Jenkins was the wrestling coach when they were old

He took him on a tour. He's really cool Now I'm gonna throw a couple pictures into the chat for you, so I'm gonna pause this here So having looked at that picture of George Hackenschmidt what jumps out at you? The lats on that guy. Yes. Like he looks like a cartoon representation of a strongman. Yeah he looks like a Lee Field drawing almost. Yeah, um He's got better feet than that but um Just just like like clearly I mean I can look at it and I can see where Siegel and Schuster had the visual

Inspiration for Superman right? Yeah that classic old Chiseled yeah, yeah and and and the width of the man's shoulders It's kind of freakish. You could park a bus on like I don't like Yeah, you know lengthwise. Yeah And and there's not really a good cue in that photo of how tall he was I want to say he was my mind and his height was. I do have the tail of the tape later on when they. What? Yeah. Yeah.

I think it was like five. Nine. Yeah. Oh, OK. I'm even more impressed because. Jiminy Christmas, right? Like looking at the way that guy's built and expected you to say well He's like you know six four no. He's five nine, but yeah cuz Frank gosh was 511 like neither of these guys was over six feet That's insane yeah, and and the other thing is there's no way This it's a good thing. He was making money the way he was doing all this because there's no way that guy could buy Any clothes off the rack?

You know you go you go into a man's haberdasher you're like yeah, I need I need you know three shirts And I need a I need a suit suit jacket You know they give you one and the moment he puts it on just like he doesn't try to button it and Chris Farley's it You know, just yeah, just just pulls it pulls it around his shoulders and the back seams go out, right? My god. Yeah, so Tom Jenkins ends up so he was a professional wrestler He ends up being the the wrestling coach for West Point and later on in life Jenkins invites Hackenschmidt out and he just gives him

a tour of West Point like they were good pals. All right. Anyway from 1905 to 1908 George Hackenschmidt put up his title against all comers sticking mostly to catch his catch can wrestling having adopted it as his preferred style to when he was younger and preferred Greco-Roman. Catch is what made the money. It's what sold out the music halls, et cetera. Now, just-

Is that just because of the wider variation in moves? Yes. It's not just you and me wrestling at our waists and trying to topple each other, which is its own- Yeah. That's its own drama. But catch, you could be lighter, taking on a heavier dude. Okay. And the outcome was still in question.

Okay. Honestly, catch is easier to work. That makes sense. Right. That makes a lot of sense. And I'm, and I'm put in mind when you say that I'm put in mind of the the the moment in Music Man, where the mayor of the town is reminiscing of you know, it'll be more dramatic than the

classic moment in the wrestling match between and I don't remember the two names. Sure. where they where they locked arms and stood there motionless for two hours And and I mean obviously it's played for laughs, but you know also No, that's that's actually that's a meaningful fucking thing like Having wrestled that's no no That's that's a real matchup right there And also that's a shoot

Yeah, there's no way there's you know, they're not working that that's that's for real. Yeah, yeah, by the way The line was I looked it up because it pinged my memory a bit. Yeah, it make it into the podcast. But now it will. The mayor has a line and it says I haven't seen the Iowans this spellbound since Frank gotch and strangular Lewis laid on the mat for two and a half hours without moving a muscle. Right. Now, that's quite something given what's coming. Okay. Yeah. Now, in 1908, there is an up and coming American wrestler who is becoming undeniably a possible threat to George Hackenschmidt's reign. From Hackenschmidt's book, he said, quote,

I then sailed to America to fulfill my contract to wrestle Frank Gotch Prior to the contest itself. I fulfilled the Knights engagement at the Grand Central Palace in New York meeting Neil Olsen a quick little wrestler who called himself young Hackenschmidt and Steg Miller whom I took with me to America. He then goes on to detail a bunch of his defeats and meetings including America. He then goes on to detail a bunch of his defeats and meetings, including President Roosevelt in the White House and a match with a guy named Gus Schoenlein, S-C-H-O with the umlaut, N-L-E-I-N. So Schoenlein. Schoenlein? Sure.

Schoenlein? Sure. Okay. Whom Hackenschmidt erroneously called America. He was actually called Americus. Okay. And then he says quote, from here I went straight to Chicago to get ready for Gotch. So his book makes no mention of the match other than to say he'd already said stuff about it and others have too, so there's no point in going over it, the match with Gotch.

However, in the very next paragraph, Hackenschmidt mentioned going back to England to prep for a match with Stanislaus Zabisco in June of 1908 and feeling so much pain in his right knee that he had to put off the match until it got treated. Oh, wow. Now, Frank Gotch was born in 1877 in Iowa. He was born to unremarkable German immigrant farming parents and took to wrestling in his teens, gaining a reputation for being able to best anyone in the area.

He would adopt the toe hold as his signature move. And given the tremendous amount of possible things that this meant, the best I could figure was that it was actually some sort of an ankle lock where you bend the toes against the ankle. Ooh. The postcards that I found and the manual that he wrote on how to wrestle kind of backed that up.

And it's basically essentially an ankle lock behind a modified figure four using the arms. And I'm gonna pause here to show you what I have found to be that. All right so now that you've seen the the final picture especially that's the ideal position where you've basically got the guy stacked up on his own shoulders right yeah and as you see you're bending the toe to go against the ankle and you've modified the arm the your arms into his legs So you're also putting pressure on his knee

Yeah, well just the illustrations that I gave you by the way come from Frank gotch's own manual. Oh Well 108 holds by Frank gotch or so I forget my god. Yeah Wow Why don't you just why don't you just oil check a guy? Like looking looking at this hold I'm like, you know, I don't know what you wanted like on the one hand I know which one would be worse, but look at these pictures. There's a part of me. That's like I I don't know man, right like That's that's a remarkable way to get pain compliance. And by the way, if the other guy resists the wrong way, there's I can see three joints that are going to get fucked.

Yeah. Like without even looking too close. The knee is the thing that really gets damaged because it can it's a hinge. Whereas the ankles at least a ball. So yeah, now- And the torsion that'd be put on that is- Right. And by the way, you're starting to notice with catch,

you can have submissions, whereas with Greco, it was throwing people and getting them on their shoulders. Now you have two possible endings. You could have a pin or a submission. Which by the way, in today's professional wrestling, these are the two ways that you can get a championship to exchange hands. Right.

If you get disqualified or counted out, they lose, but they don't lose the title. Now that's a later addition to the rules to give heels a better way or to yeah to protect your heel basically. Now Frank Gotch's first professional bout was a victory against a guy named Marshall Green in his own hometown, which is in Iowa. I don't remember the actual town in Iowa. Gotch then went on to wrestle others, holding his own against the semi-anonymous

American heavyweight champion, Dan McLeod, at one point. Now, Dan McLeod had just won the championship, the American Championship, in 1897, from a guy named Farmer Burns. You might remember him. I do remember that name. Farmer Burns. You might remember him. I do remember that name. Farmer Burns was one of the last real carny wrestling champions in America,

and McCloud took that championship off of him. Okay. McCloud was awaiting a train in Laverne, Iowa, at a picnic. He and Gotch had an impromptu match for about two hours, which ended with gotch being defeated. Oh wow. After he lost, only then did McLeod let gotch know who he actually was, or after gotch had been defeated.

McLeod let him know, by the way, I'm the American heavyweight champion. Yeah. That's my train gotta go. Thanks a lot kid Wow two hours again big fan of sex love fucking Yeah, and imagine going that long. Yeah in my younger days I can but I'm not in my younger. No, no No, the two would later meet in a place called Somer Park in Montreal. Yeah. Now, according to the St. John Daly son, in advance of their official match that night, in

December 22, 1905, this is the one in Somer Park. According to the St. John Daly son, quote, This pair met once before at a small town near Des Moines, Iowa, where Gotch was attending a picnic. McCloud was passing through and had to wait over a few hours to catch a train. Gotch was there, pointed out to Dan as the best wrestler in the whole country. Dan said he was an amateur himself, and he would gladly have a go with their champion. He, being McCloud, put up $400 as a side bet and the friends of Gotch soon covered the bet. The men went at it right away, Dan being in a hurry

to catch his train. They simply wrestled on the ground, dressed in their long trousers. Dan said his name was McMillan. He found Gotch one of the hardest propositions he was ever up against, and it took him over an hour to get the fall out of him. Now that's from a newspaper in 1905, ahead of their match in Montreal. So puffery, sure. Good drama, sure. This is not the first

time. And even McCloud said that this guy is tough Now, Gotch would lose to some of the best, including, at the age of 21, to Farmer Burns himself. But he continued to grow as a wrestler and an attraction. In fact, Gotch so impressed Farmer Burns that Burns took him in and trained Gotch to the level of ability that he had when he met Hackenschmidt. Okay. Gotch traveled with Burns and a man named Oli Marsh up to the Yukon territory, wrestling under the name Frank Kennedy, where wrestling was a big deal up there.

And evidently, Gotch, now called Kennedy, and Marsh worked several matches in addition to Gotch making a name for himself by legitimately beating the locals that the worked matches grew and grew and raised the stakes on the gambling pots. Gotch called Kennedy is going through and beating all their local guys and then he's struggling against this guy Oli Marsh and it comes to a no contest. No contest and pretty soon people are like wow that's the guy who beat the guys over here and beat the lumberjacks over there and did that yeah and then you know

the victories traded by March and gosh back and forth were Were enough that when he had had enough success there Frank gotch came back down to Iowa with $30,000 in prize money. Woof! 30, okay, hold on. That's $30,000 in 19, oh what now? 19 oh something money. And the calculators only go back to 1913,

but a 1913 or a inflation calculator But a 1913 or a inflation calculator would put $30,000 in 1913 monies at roughly, yeah, let's see, 1913. And now money, that's $939,000. Sweet Jiminy Christmas. It comes back almost a millionaire. in now money that's nine hundred and thirty nine thousand dollars sweet Jiminy Christmas almost a millionaire my god yeah so gotch then sets out to challenge the best that he could and he challenged Tom Jenkins right okay at that time who was the American heavyweight champion, Tom Jenkins was a man who only had one eye.

Okay. And he had traded the title back and forth with McLeod a couple times each. So the American heavyweight champion was Jenkins, then it was McLeod, then it was Jenkins, then it was McLeod. Jenkins beat Gotch in their first match in 1903, but he came back to beat him for the title in 1904. Gotch did, came back. Yeah, yeah. What's interesting to note here is that a lot of folks cried fake on the tradebacks with Gotch. So, Jenkins beats Gotch, Gotch beats Jenkins. A lot of people are calling this fake. And Gotch had to answer it in the press after their match in Cleveland.

And he reassured the press that since he'd won, how could he be throwing fights? How can you say I'm a fake when I won? Right. And it also helped to sell the match as legitimate because Gotch was a dirty motherfucker who dug at Jenkins's only eye as hard as he could. Um... But he... Yeah. Now, interestingly, Jenkins' loss to McCloud was due to the fact that

the leather strap that was protecting a wound in his leg, which had been injured by blood poisoning from being damaged further in the match, um, so he's got a leather strap around his, again, consider what the medicine is at the time. Yeah, medical technology today. You've got a wound in your leg, you've got blood poisoning, clearly it's only in your leg. So we're going to put a leather strap around the wound so that it doesn't open up like if you get thrown. That strap had buckles that started digging into the wound to the point where the manager for Jenkins threw in the towel

because he was afraid that there would be more blood poisoning in that wound. Okay. Now again, as a pro wrestling fan, having your manager throw in the towel is a great way for you to end strong and still lose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And at the same time, all of this fits with what was true at the time too. So as I'm fond of pointing out, they didn't realize that Ether didn't exist in the air until 1927. Right. Now, according to the Chicago Tribune on December 26, 1902, quote, he, Jenkins, had wrestled 20 minutes in the third bout when he told McLeod the condition he was in and offered to quit and call the match a draw or to go on wrestling. McLeod insisted on continuing, but Jenkins' manager refused to let the big fellow go on and forfeited the match.

Okay. When I say that professional wrestling has always been this way. Professional wrestling has always been this way. Has always been this way. Now this made the Jenkins and McLeod's return match that much bigger because it was, you see the extenuating circumstances. The New York Times reposted or reported this on April 4th, 1903 that in Buffalo, New York quote, Tom Jenkins of Cleveland regained the wrestling championship tonight. Back then tonight was written with a hyphen by defeating Dan McLeod in two straight falls. Time, one hour, 17 minutes, and then 14 minutes, 30 seconds. Wow.

Now again, you and I both like fucking. Imagine having to come back for a second round, or imagine getting to come back for a second round. Yeah. After an hour and 17 minutes. Yeah. My hips hurt just thinking about it. I'm not going to lie. Now, this wasn't going to be the last of the times that they met. It's just that the cloud didn't defeat Jenkins for the title thereafter.

And they had return matches in multiple towns, including at Madison Square Garden. And then in Bellingham, Washington, Gotch got his match against Jenkins. According to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer on January 24th, 1904, quote, the coming contest between Tom Jenkins of Cleveland, champion Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestler of America, and Frank Gotch of Humboldt, Iowa, that's where he's from Humboldt, will be the greatest event of its kind ever held on the Pacific coast. They meet in this city at Beck's Theater, January 27 for $1,000 a side and $2,000 purse, all of which is going to the winner. The match will be Catches Catch Can, two best in three falls, and pin falls to count.

The coming match will not only decide who is champion of America, but the championship of the Anglo-Saxon race, according to the articles of agreement. I love that that's written in there. Wow. Jenkins has never been defeated by a white man. Wow. The article then goes on to detail the Turks who have actually beaten Jenkins and I guess since McLeod is Scottish it doesn't count. I don't get it but okay. Probably because he's Gaelic enough. But the article details their first meeting and Jenkins's defeat of Gotch and that seems to be Gotch's trajectory. Fighting up to the level, then

getting beat, and then coming back again and again. And honestly in terms of wrestling his trajectory is not dissimilar from Chris Benoit. Keep challenging the top talent, keep losing, keep working your way back and keep getting a ton of respect for your work ethic and improvement as you go Now from that same article It says quote returning from there and there is they're talking about the Klondike and Yukon All right Gotch after a number of other matches issued a challenge to wrestle any man in America. His challenge was accepted by Tom Jenkins, and the match took place at Cleveland, February

26, 1903. Jenkins won after two hours and 30 minutes of the fiercest wrestling ever seen in America. Since that time, Gotch has steadily improved. Wow. Okay. Again, like thinking back to when I was like 17 to 30. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Now I found no article detailing gotch's win three days later on January 27th, 1904. But in October, gotch handedly beat McLeod in two straight falls. And then in March of 1905, Jenkins won again against Gotch.

So there's this like three-way dance going on, trading it back and forth. Now a little more than a year later, in 1906, Frank Gotch worked his way back up again. And after defeating another guy who used Hackenschmidt's name. Who? Yes.

Like first and last. Yeah. It was confusing. It was not the Hackenschmidt. It was like this guy who was like called little Hackenschmidt, which I told you about before, but then there was, it wasn't George Hackenschmidt. It was like Ron Hacken, no George Hackenschmidt it was like Ron Hacken no Charles Hackenschmidt that's what it was and he was billing himself

as George Hackenschmidt's Swedish cousin oh my god I want to I want to go back to the whole oh sure never been beaten by a white man except for that Scotsman Yeah, well, you know it is it's just remarkable Because on one hand it's like well, you know, we're talking about Anglo-saxons and clearly he's a gale, right? But then you know gotchas descended from Germans Yeah, all these other guys who are Swedes and it's like well, but again, that's the Saxon part you see so But what okay?

One okay, so it's not just not huns. Yeah Okay waving hand wave all time your racism. Okay, whatever. All right So okay Charles Hackenschmidt who had defeated Farmer Burns in December of 1905 is now the guy that Dodge has beaten in 1906 and Like I said, he's the Swedish cousin to the Russian lion and 12 days Hackenschmidt's elder other promoters had Charles Hackenschmidt listed as the younger brother to George Hackenschmidt Charles Hackenschmidt listed as the younger brother to George Hackenschmidt. But this is not the same guy as Neil Olson who was billed as little Hackenschmidt. The thing is, this was the second time in a month that Gotch has defeated Charles Hackenschmidt.

Okay. Now, so what we're seeing here is like Hackenschmitt is clearly the name. Yes. And so that's the that's the comparison you want to make. That's the that's the claim to greatness that you want to. OK, yeah, I beat the proximal claim to greatness. You know, it's like, yeah, because the papers you might just read. Gosh, defeats Hackenschmitt and two straight falls. Yeah. And, you might just read, Gosh Defeats Hackenschmitt in Two Straight Falls. Yeah.

And, you know, yeah. Yeah. OK. Now, in WCW in the 1980s, 90s, early 90s, there was a guy who wrestled as Randy Hogan. I, you know, somehow I knew right around now There was gonna be like we're right in that in that point in the episode where we're gonna have to have a Hulk Hogan reference Yes, is Randy Hogan

Randy Hogan oh my god. I will between episodes. I will I will show you a picture of Randy Hogan It is hilarious. It is sure it is the wish version of Randy Hogan. It is hilarious. It is the Wish version of Hulk Hogan. It's not even a half Hogan. It's a quarter Hogan. Is it Wish or is it the Teemu version? It is the Hulk Hogan what Tooby is to Netflix. Oh, shit. Okay. Wow. Okay. So, um, the best thing I could figure, because I did some digging on Charles Hackenschmidt is that Charles Hackenschmidt was actually a wrestler who wrestled as John Berg in Canada. And then he wrestled as young Hackenschmidt and Charles Hackenschmidt in the U S. Um, and there was absolutely nothing that the OG Hackenschmitt would say about this guy. Like there was, I found nothing, no reference to.

He wasn't even on his radar. Right. And I think like there is some of that, like, you know, it's, it's, there wasn't there like some sort of writer who like Hemingway went up to and said, Hey, we were both in the war. He's like, no, you go sit over there with the children. We actually fought in it or something like that. Like there was something. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like that kind of was, but yeah. So holy crap. Yeah. When I say that professional wrestling has always been this way, I mean that it has always been this way. I sense a theme developing. this way. I sense a theme developing. So, Berg had evidently developed a reputation as never wrestling to avoid losing and never being in a fixed match and lasted until about 1922.

So, he would lose, but it's because he was always going for the win, not Wrestling Safe. And he was never in a fixed match. The fact that that is said about him at that time tells us a lot. A whole lot, yeah. Now he'd had matches against many of the more important fixtures in that part of wrestling's history, but mostly he ended up being a regional light heavyweight champion at varying times He even traded matches with a guy named Fred Beale Beale has two L's in it. He will come in later Alright now in November of 1906 Frank gotch wrestled Leo Pardello who evidently used quote rough tactics

As opposed to all that kid glove shit right you know digging out the rest of the eye that a fucker has yeah yeah um rough tactics included punching Frank gotch pulling out some of Frank gotch's hair and enraging Frank gotch you know I'd get kind of pissed off if you tried to pull my hair out. Yeah, like I feel like there's some redundancy there Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now Frank gotch broke his leg using the toe hold. Oh Really fucker, yeah Dominance and now and now we enter the find around it find out phase of the evenings activities. Yes Now speaking of Fred Beale, Fred Beale had defeated Frank Gotch in an upset in New

Orleans for the American Heavyweight Championship, possibly knocking Gotch out during the match after an attempted throw saw them both leave the ring. Oh, shit. Gotch was said to have hit his head on a ring post and ended up losing the match. Then Beale lost the title back to Gotch in the same month in December of 1906 in Kansas City, Missouri. Pretty impressive that Gotch would be up and back in business like that after what must have been a monstrous concussion.

I would point out that Mick Foley was thrown off the hell on the cell. That's true. Separated his shoulder. They brought out a stretcher. He then climbed back to the top of the hell on the cell, got thrown through the hell on the cell, had a chair land on his head as he hit the ring. Yeah. He was out for three minutes and then got up, got back into the match, ended up being driven into a whole body full of thumb tacks.

Yeah, like I don't Yeah, there's there's there's some there's some level of healing factor or like like subcutaneous adamantium some musculature like I don't know what but He's maybe he just has a higher than normal percentage of Neanderthal genetics Could be could be that he didn't have the body that everyone else had so he had more cushion like There's something to that, you know, but my god. Yeah, so you're like wow in one month He came back. I'm like motherfucker dude back in three minutes like Granted all right. Sorry. I need to I need to remember that I'm talking about, you know, literary murder gymnastics and back

up a second. Right. Okay. Never mind. Common sense. Like, you know, yeah. Yeah. So that needs to go out the window.

All right. This leads to a return match between Beal and Gotch in April of 1907 and Gotch dominated the shit out of Beal there. And I'm not actually saying that any of this was a work, but boy what a story it was. I'll tell you, I give credit to Beal for showing up again after getting your leg broken like that. I feel like that was a message No, no, that was Leo Pardella who got his leg broke. Okay. All right. All right. That was a New York wrestler Beal had again won in a freak upset in New Orleans and Then lost the next month in December and then four months later

the next month in December and then four months later, she meant Christmas. Got dominated. And so here's the thing about story, right? Yeah. You've got Gotch who's up and coming. Beal got one over on him. Oh my God. You know, here's the return match.

Oh, Gotch definitely beat him. You know what though? Maybe that wasn't a fluke. Maybe they need one more. And in April they met and Gotch is absolutely established as a top dog there. And that gets Gotch over and puts him onto the next feud. This is good story. I'm not saying any of it's a work, but now in November of 1907, Frank Gotch is very vocal

in newspaper about a guy named Joe Rogers. Because Joe Rogers is a pro wrestler from America who went over to England to take on George Hackenschmidt. And I grabbed most of the...and so Joe Roger, who the fuck is this guy? Okay, so in 1997, leading up to Survivor Series, there was a wrestler who got an upset victory over Bret Hart. Hart was the champion. His name was the Patriot, Del Wilkes.

Okay. He's got a mask with an eagle on it. He shows up with the American flag. Hart hates America this time. And the Patriot gets an upset victory over him. And the result is, I think it leads to a championship match. Oh wow. And you know, Michaels is is dutifully pissed about this like how is the Patriot getting a match over me you know it's and it's so yeah yeah yeah story right so here's what here's here's um

Gotch being very pissed that Joe Rogers of all people Joe fucking Rogers are you kidding me he's going over there he's's gonna take on the Russian lion? You know who should be going over there. You know who should come here to fight me. You know, it's that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So the Los Angeles Herald quotes him on November 19th of 1907, and it's,

do you just tell me what Frank Gotch, what his motivation is here, quote. Okay. What right has Tom O'Rourke of New York to take a man like Rogers, a man I can throw 10 times in an hour, to England to represent this country in a match for the world's championship, said Gotch today. Why, there are several wrestlers here who can beat Rogers. Fred Beal of Marshfield, Wisconsin would make him look like a second-rater. I don't mind the man going over to get money,

but let him go to his class and not pose as a champion of America where he has nowhere near it. I have tried hard to get a match with Hackenschmidt for the last two years, but have not succeeded, and the only conclusion to be reached is that he is afraid. The Kansas City Convention Hall people offered Hackenschmidt $5,000 cash for five exhibition matches and a purse of $10,000 to wrestle me for the title, the same to be split any way he wished. Winner take all, 75 and 25, or 50 and 50, but he declined all propositions on the pretext of having theatrical engagements. That was two years ago, and he still claims to be champion, although he refuses to wrestle but he declined all propositions on the pretext of having theatrical engagements. That was two years ago, and he still claims to be champion,

although he refuses to wrestle for the title. He was offered $10,000 cash to make the trip here, and he could have had $15,000 if he'd won. That is pretty high, and more than he can make in England at the same length of time. He is a faint-hearted, in my opinion opinion and not a good champion. Wow. Wow. Like there's there's a gauntlet being thrown there. Like there is a you're too. Yeah. Yeah. The guy that I kicked his ass would have been this guy who's going over there. Yeah. You know, it's good that he's getting money. But come on. But come on. He shouldn't be going over there claiming to be in the same league. Right. I really like the the opening line. You know, I can throw him 10 times in an hour. Right. It's like, wow. Um, and then, and then the, the, the receipts, the, you know,

the Kansas city people offered him all this dough and we could divide it. Anyway, you want 75, 25, you want 50, 50, you want 25, 10, you know, everyone knows start out with the 50% chance. Exactly. Steiner math. Yeah. Which I can't even I can't even try to do the rest of the bit. I know that's exactly where that's going. Oh, yeah. But, you know, just just that is that is a a promo in an era before before television is like proto promo. Yeah.

So so I have a question about that, though, that comes up now. Sure. So so this this whole interview that got you is giving is in what paper? This is in the Los Angeles Herald. OK, so he's given he's saying this to the L.A. Herald and in the L.A. Herald, he talks about, OK, about okay the Kansas City you know exhibition hall people offered him all this money two years ago and he talks about you know this guy in this part of the country and this guy in this part of the country. Names where they're from too. Yeah yeah yeah. Now my

understanding of the business at this point in history was that it was that it was still very regional But this is giving me this this kind of sense that no no this this is a like gotch is a national figure yeah, and You know you don't quite have carved out territories yet actually yeah, okay? You've got promoters who book an area from time to time or they've got good deals you don't have the territory system just yet okay okay so we're in it we're in a free yes territory era okay yeah okay so that okay that kind of answers answers the question I had there about that,

because he's really talking about this on a national stage, and he's talking about being the American champion. Right. And, okay, yeah. And he's very, very, very pointedly calling the old man out. Like like it doesn't get any more direct than that. Right and they're roughly the same age they're within a year or two of each other too. So when I say that professional wrestling has always been this way I mean it has always been this way. Right. So you have Frank Gotch losing, then winning, then getting

upset, then dominating the man who upset him, then breaking a man's leg for daring to be brutal, then going off on poor Joe Rogers who just needs to make a living. And he literally says, you know, right, you got to make a living. I don't I, you know, dude's got to make a living. I don't blame him for that, but like, come on, go sit. As you said a minute ago, go sit with the children. The children, yeah.

Kids' table's over there. Yeah, it's astounding to me. And again, it's this, there's so much going on in that promo. Again, he's naming the places that people have been from. He's driving up local interest because this is him being quoted in the LA Herald, but that doesn't mean he's in LA cutting this bus or he's on the train talking to press. And now they're going to go. The guys from Wisconsin are going to be, well, we got mentioned and you know, the guys from New York, you know, and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, there's

a remarkable level. There's a remarkable level of, you know, era appropriate and media savvy. Yes. You know, because one of the major like stunning and kind of almost grim takeaways from talking about Hulk Hogan was the remarkable genius that Terry Bollea had, as still to an extent, in being able to always turn the narratives in a direction of his own benefit. And knowing, okay, this is being able to consciously or subconsciously notice this is the moment. And I'm seeing that from Gotch here. Oh, huge. In a little bit less, you know, okay, fuck those guys, I'm getting mine. Right. Kind of way.

Because, you know, Hulk Hogan. Doesn't this sound a little like Rocky V? You gotta dog him. You gotta chase him. You gotta chase him. You gotta, like he's telling Tommy to call out Rocky a bunch, right? Yeah, yeah. So, now Rodgers wasn't just going over to England

to fight Hackenschmidt, by the way. He was one of four very strong new wrestlers whom Hackenschmidt, Hackenschmidt said, the four of you guys should have a tournament to see who gets to fight me. So he's ascended to that level of like kind of being a promo. Untouchable, you know. Yeah.

And so here are the four guys, a guy named Constant LeMarine, Joe Rogers Ivan Padumby and Stanislas Zabisco not Wadaslaw Zabisco Stanislas Zabisco they were brothers okay all four had publicly challenged him and since Hackenschmidt was having trouble with his knee in 1907 he was like I need to beg off a little and he had a very cunning manager in Cochrane and because and this has you got to prove which one of you is worthy to take on the Russian lion and it had this has to be some sort of fucking work so they had a tournament to find out who would fight him. And Zbysko and Podubny wrestled to a DQ victory for Zbysko. Rogers ended up getting sepsis, so that means that that match just doesn't happen. So Hackenschmidt

schedules himself to take on Zbysko, which you may remember is when his knee started acting up again. Zbysko was already known to have fixed matches as early as 1906. Okay. So in January, Frank Gotch has trouble against a guy, Americas, you remember Schoenlein? Schoenlein. Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

Only getting one fall on him in the allotted time before going on to dominate Hjalmar Lundin later on that month in convincing fashion, toe holding him the first fall and hammerlocking him in the second. Now there would often be a stipulation saying, I will get three falls on this guy and the first two in the first 20 minutes. Oh, wow. And you know, or whatever the step you gave. Yeah. And so, gotch defeated and dominated America's but America's didn't fall twice in the allotted time. So it's kind of it's ruled. I don't think it's ruled a loss for gotch, but neither is it's not a definitive victory. Exactly. Okay. Which of course could set drives up

drama match. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So but then he goes on to just beat the brakes off this other guy. Right? Yeah. So also in January, both Hackenschmidt and Rogers were both healthy enough finally. This is January of 08, if I recall. They're both healthy enough finally, yeah, January of 08. They're both healthy enough finally for their match. So he's already beaten Stanislaw Zabisco. Now Joe Rogers is done with sepsis. Hackenschmitt's knee is okay still, and they're healthy enough. And according to the Alexandria Gazette and the Virginia Advisor on January 30th, 1908, George Hackenschmitt, the Russian lion, easily defeated Joe Rogers, the American, before an enormous audience in Oxford Music Hall today for the World's Catches Catch Can Championship.

Rogers stood no chance for a moment. Hackenschmidt took the first and second falls, apparently with scarcely an effort, and was declared the winner. Okay, because the audience was there to watch a domination. So Hackenschmidt just dominated the American. Right. Gotch just dominated the American. Right. Gotch just dominated a guy. Yeah. Which means that Hackenschmidt

and Gotch are now booked to wrestle in Chicago on April 3, 1908. Hey, and as I say that out loud, it occurs to me that WrestleMania is always occur late March, early April. Because when you say wrestling, professional wrestling has always been this way. Yeah. You mean it's always been this way. Yeah. Okay. Now, uh, I think, uh, in preparation for the bout, gotch ginning up drama for that bout,

takes another bout with Jalmard London again. But this time he says, I'm gonna wrestle with Greco-Roman rules, you know, like what Hackenschmidt's good at. Hackenschmidt had been so dominant in that style that he switched over to catch just so dominant in that style that he switched over to catch just so that he could have a bit of a struggle. And London dominated the shit out of Gotch even

throwing him once under Greco-Roman rules. Now who's gonna win? Right? Right, right, right, right. Then Gotch goes on to take on Rogers in March, claiming, well, I'm gonna throw the Rogers five times in an hour, or we can call it a defeat. Okay. Now he manages to throw Rogers twice, but not five. So now he's lost against the guy

that Hackenschmidt had beaten so easily and he lost in a style that Hackenschmidt's good at Yeah, this is all I like now it could have been a shoe like but it feels very working You know, yeah, I I definitely see the way the the you know Storyline is going here for sure. This is right. You're ginning up. You're ginning up tension like the you know storyline is going here for sure this is right you're ginning up you're ginning up tension like you know yeah and and the thing is is like it is hard to beat a man who refuses to engage if this stipulation is that you get the bigger purse if he can't throw you in five five times in an hour you're gonna play a defensive game you're gonna make the most boring

wrestling match you can make to keep your ass from getting thrown. Oh yeah, no you're gonna dance around. Right. Dance around the ring like that. That makes sense. Yeah. And having been beaten so easily by Hackenschmidt I could see Joe Rogers doing his goddamn-diss to make sure not to get embarrassed again too. Well yeah. This could be a shoot. That makes sense, true. This could absolutely be a shoot. Yeah. So, yeah, this could be a shoot. This could absolutely be a shoot. Yeah. So, Rogers goes to the ropes a lot, which makes you have to break your hold. Yeah.

And ultimately he actually ends up almost throwing gotch once. According to the Washington Herald, quote, Rogers outweighed Gotch by 40 or 50 pounds and adopted stalling tactics from the outset. He was on the defensive all the time and frequently edged off the mat when Gotch had him in difficulties. 10 minutes after the men began wrestling again, Gotch got his noted toehold

and Rogers, fearing that his ankle would be broken, allowed the fall. Gotch showed superiority throughout, but Rogers managed to stall out time. Okay. So Gotch lost the stipulation, but looked really dominant. So if you're keeping score, we are a month before their famed first bout, and Frank Gotch looks all sorts of defeatable. Hackenschmidt looks completely undefeatable. Everyone who's given Gotch trouble has been no trouble for Hackenschmidt, and another guy with Hackenschmidt's

name has beaten Gotch's mentor, but then lost in decided fashion to Gotch himself. Gotch can't win his stipulation about a guy he ran down last year in the paper, but he obviously also dominated the guy. Right. When I say that professional wrestling has always been this way, I mean it has always been this way. Now the Salt Lake Herald said on March 15th, 1908, quote, Frank Gotch is coming in for considerable criticism over his recent match with Joe Rogers in which he failed to throw Rogers five times in an hour as he had agreed to do. Rogers left America and went to England to wrestle Hackenschmidt and he claimed that the

American Championship as a matter of fact or any claim the American Championship. As a matter of fact Rogers is nothing better than a third-rater and Gotch offered to throw him five times in an hour. This he failed to do although Gotch's friends thought he could do so without trouble. One of the excuses offered by Gotch's friends is that the Iowa farmer allowed Rogers to stay in in order to throw Hackenschmidt off. Others are so unkind as to say Gotch allowed him to stay to get another match. So we are three weeks from the big pay-per-view. Our challenger is struggling and he's been kind of healing it up the whole time. But our champion who's so far been untouchable by all concerned has had an easier time of

things and also that's kind of a heels purview normally. Now he's coming to America not an American so he's gonna be a heel in America but a hero worldwide. Right right right okay. And then in Boston on March 19, 1908 George Hackenschmidt headlined at the Armory AA. According to the Gazette the following day the quote, world's champion wrestler proved conclusively at the Armory AA last night that he is the master of the men who now hold the positions very near to the top flight in the wrestling world. In quick succession this performer tossed John Pirelli at a catch-as-catch can, then handled Alvery, the 265 pound French wrestler, like a sack of meal,

and after toying with him for three minutes, slammed him to the canvas for a fall. With a few minutes rest, Hack then called for as many more victims as he could be secured. Emil Stegmiller, a 215 pound German, took the chance and put up a pretty and exciting bout with the champion. But it was plain to all that Hack had the whip hand and that he could pin his opponent at any time he cared to. Nevertheless, the bout afforded a good opportunity for Hack to display his marvelous all-around ability and agility. So, a week away from the match, like, oh, well, it's the 19th, the match is on the third. So we're talking two weeks away. Yeah. He's just, okay, bring in more people, bring in more people, bringing in while God is struggling. Right? Right. Yeah. Now this particular show also saw George and Bob Kelly, who were two little people wrestlers,

which is the first time I've read about them in this era. But they also clearly weren't the first of their kind at that time. They wrestled to a five minute draw. And another preliminary match on this card ended in nine minutes. Can you guess how it ended? Disqual? Toehold. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh uh that you might see Frank Gotch put on in April right now in an interview on March 29th heading into the bout Joe Rogers was interviewed. The Deseret, so

this is in Utah, reported that quote Rogers concedes that the Russian lion was entitled to all the honors of the occasion and believes him the greatest wrestler in the world. The rest of the article goes on to detail how masterfully Rogers was handled and how effortlessly Hackenschmidt manipulated his body and seeking victory and how much strength Hackenschmidt displayed and Since Rogers said that he had suffered from rheumatism going into the bout his manhandling was somewhat excused So okay talk about talking up this bout right yeah Yeah, and all of that puffing up and puffing up Hackenschmidt like in a huge way

Yeah, yes And all of that leads into the Chicago bout between Gotch and Hackenschmidt at the Dexter Park Pavilion. The gate for that match was over $87,000, which was a record at the time. Holy cow. Yeah. And I think we talked about $30,000 before $87,000 in 19 well it's gotta be 1913 monies was $2.7 million dollars. Shaming Christmas. And that's where I want to leave it because in the next episode we're going

to talk about the match itself. Okay. And remember this is the first match this is not the screw job match. Okay, remember this is the first match. This is not the screw job match Holy cow all right, so is there anything that you've gleaned? Besides well The tagline for this for this miniseries, you know when I say professional wrestling it's always been this way dot dot dot I think I think what I find Remarkable mm-hmm and And this is this is obviously you know with kind of a presentist lens mm-hmm, but the amount of The only word that comes to mind is legitimate press coverage that

all of these guys are getting from newspapers and you know, well from newspapers because we don't have the other media. Yeah, but but the amount of the amount of of like no no I am a I am a reporter with You know the Deseret or right la examiner or whatever There is much more of a Cultural level of sport legitimacy mm-hmm Being given to it in the media. Yeah. Of course we're, you know, I'm saying this in an era where, you know, Vince McMahon and WWE have literally come out and said, no, no, this is sports

entertainment and it's not. And now it's being covered on ESPN. That's what's wild is that we've actually come full circle. That legitimate media is covering professional wrestling. Now it's being covered on ESPN. That's what's wild is that we've actually come full circle. That legitimate media is now covering professional wrestling. Not as though it's pro wrestling, but it is still being covered by sports organizations, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, a whole bunch of newspapers will talk about these kinds of things.

Okay. Yeah. papers will talk about these kinds of things. Okay, yeah, but I know the one you know when when you know the WWF, you know that at the beginning of the whole Hogan era, it was it was very different. You didn't hear this stuff being talked about by quote unquote legitimate sports writers because right. It's not you know, that's because of an incident that happens at Madison Square Garden in the 1930s specifically they stop yeah

okay and that's a different screw job that I'm not covering in this episode or okay but it will come in so okay yeah but yeah I just I find it I find it interesting you know and and the explicit statement that, well, you know, and he's never he's never fixed a match. Right. You know. And so we're we're already we already see

kayfabe and we already see the nascent kind of beginnings of the understanding by the audience that, you know, that this this is this is a show Right, you know At this point, I think they're still lying to the audience on purpose not with a wink and a nod of we all yeah I think in many ways they are conning the audience much more Okay, well, yeah, it kind of makes sense. Yeah

so but you know um I don't think I don't think the the level of popular meta understandings of media existed necessarily for them and be able to lie with a wink and a nod right you know the the advanced knowledge that Roland Barthe says the audience has in the 1950s is not something that the audience has in the 1900s. Hundreds. Yeah. Yeah.

And just because of the nature of the media, I think that's part of it is there aren't the same number of media outlets. There aren't the same number of media outlets There aren't the same number of media period right, right, you know, we don't even have radio yet, let alone television And so the newspapers are kind of it. Mm-hmm So Yeah, but it's it's it's fascinating to me That we're already talking about, you you know this this sounds like a work You know and and you have shooters who worked and workers who shot yeah, and and

the way all of these events kind of line up Like in a modern area. Well, era, you know, obviously, you know, the company has figured out this is this is a storyline we figured out, you know, where we want to pay off to be etc. Like we've talked about in other episodes. What I what I find remarkable about this is the overarching organization didn't exist yet. Correct. And so we can see an overarching narrative developing here. Mm hmm. But the question then is, OK, so we're promoters talking to each other via telegraph, you know, to cooperate on this stuff, or was this just the kind of nascent understanding by the performers?

Well, we'll actually get into some of that in I think the next episode up in Seattle. So hold that question. But I will. Is there anything you're going to recommend for folks to read Yeah, I don't this evening I don't have anything to recommend I Yeah, I How about you? Yeah, I'm gonna recommend Ballyhoo the roughhousers con artists and wild men who invented professional wrestling by John Langmead Fantastic book. There's a couple great chapters about the very things that I'm talking about. I drew on it somewhat heavily for some of the parts, but surprisingly, actually,

most of the newspaper quotes I found just, I dug deep on the newspapers. But as far as the narrative goes and as far as some of the work stuff goes, and you'll see in subsequent episodes, comes from that book, and it's very accessible. It's a good book. All right, very cool. Where can they find us? We can be found on the Apple podcast app,

the Amazon podcast app, and on Spotify. Think about it for a minute. And also of course on our website at www.geekhistoryoftime.com and where can you be found sir because I'm a shadow, I remain a shadow in the warp. June 7th, July 5th and August 2nd you can find me at the Comedy Spot in Sacramento. Look saccomedyspot.com and find capital punishment on Friday nights. The first Friday of every month at 9 p.m. Come on down, spin that wheel and see how we pun.

So alright cool. Well for A Geek History of, I am Damian Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock, and until next time, keep rolling 20s. For all two hours.