A Geek History of Time - Episode 302 - Shogun Way Back Then, Then, and Now Part V

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Okay, so there's there there are two possibilities going on here. One you're bringing up a term that I have never heard before. The other possibility is that this is a term I've heard before, but it involves a language that uses pronunciation That's different from Latin it and so you have no idea how to say it properly. It's an intensely 80s post-apocalyptic Schlock film. Oh and schlong film. You know, it's been over 20 years, but spoilers. Oh Okay, so so the resident Catholic thinking about that. We're going for low Earth orbit. There is no rational. Blame it on me after.

And you know I will. They mean it is two o'clock in the fucking morning. Where I am. I don't think you can get very much more homosexual panic than that. No. Which I don't know if that's better. I mean you guys are Catholics. You tell me. I'm just kind of excited that like you and producer George will have something to talk about

That basically just means that I can show up and get fed This is a Geek History of Time, where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California and my seventh grade classes this week started participating in a simulation exercise that I haven't done in about four years, partly because this is the first time since starting at my new site that I've had more than one seventh grade class to teach. Because I was doing like last year, it was all sixth grade. And prior to that, the

last time I taught any seventh grade was the very first year I was, I was at my current site. And, um, I kind of had to rebuild it from scratch because all, all of my stuff from, from my old site got, got lost. Um, and I, I am having way more fun than I've had in a while. The kids are having an absolute blast. And yeah, it's just been there've been a couple of days where it's been really good to have my job, which is a nice change of pace. You know, and I was, I was concerned because I've got, I've got some personalities, especially in my second to last class of the day, I've got some personalities just that are not ready for prime time like maturity level is not there for seventh grade and

I had to kind of You know repeatedly let them know look any one of you can ruin this for literally everybody Don't be the one that does it and they've actually done a really good job I I have I have been I've been pleasantly surprised by how well they have risen to the occasion. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's been going well. I'm going to finish it up probably on Monday. And I'm looking forward to doing The Road Vikings, which is one of the last phases of the game is like, I get to use a funny voice, which I mean, let's be honest, that's like 50% of my favorite part of doing this

job. And they're going to get to figure out about, you know, how you get Normans. Vade, you're going to give us land. So if we don't fight you, yes Yes, if you wanna get Normans, that's how you get Normans. So that's what I'm up to. How about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a US history teacher at the high school level up here in Northern California. And I got a two for one for you.

First of all, I have come to the end of my line of what I know how to do and I'm starting to experiment with it and it's probably all gonna go badly, but a friend will be coming over next week to help me get over that hump. What I'm referring to is of course 3D printing. I got a 3D printer and I have printed out the pieces.

I have yet to glue them together because the glue is coming tomorrow. For one of the, I believe it's an ATTE, the Republic tanks, the six-leggers. Nice. Okay. And I've basically been able to do proof of concept through the printer lab app and stuff like that. So now my next step is to grab an STL file from a third party, drag it in, and the kicker is like how to set up the supports in such a way that it makes sense, right?

Because those always come with that. So that's where I think I'm gonna run to the end of my rope. But my kids saw it for the first time today, everything I was doing, and I printed out just a small boat of my rope, but my kids saw it for the first time today, everything I was doing, and I printed out just a small boat for my daughter, and she watched the whole thing printing. Now, what my kids don't know is that I'm going to start printing out the innards of the far

star for Darksaber, or for Darkstrider. And I'm going to start printing their scenery and shit. And that means behind me, you'll end up seeing a whole lot more scenery, probably. Yeah. Yeah. The one the one warning as speaking as a wargamer. Yeah. Scenery. Siri winds up winds up being one of those things that it's like you start doing it and it's really cool and then it like eats up all of your available

space right so yeah so yeah so and then the the other thing yeah that I wanted to share was no it got lost in the sands of time god dang it like I got all excited about that there was something else I was gonna tell you that was cool around here or that we were doing Oh, I remember now. Yes, and I'm not editing this out because I want people to see what a baffling moron I can be I played hooky last week Because I needed it Yeah, okay.

I kept having to field questions from adults, questions such as, well, what does geography have to do with religion anyway? I'm like, have you not seen the news for the last year? Like, what's the top story? Well, you know, part of that is they have a blinkered understanding of what exactly all is involved in geography. Right. Which leads me to the next point, which is by asking such a question, you have disqualified

yourself from ever asking me about my curriculum again or offering any meaningful critique. Please show yourself to the back seat. And I'm fine with that, but they never do that They think you know their ignorance equals my expertise The other one I got was can't you teach history more neutrally? And and and the part about that that pisses me off is every time I've talked about the shit I'm doing your you you turn that on me. Yes. Can't you just teach that neutral, right? I hate you so goddamn much, which is the joke because yeah history by its very nature is look at the evidence

What does it tell you make a claim prove it with the evidence that is not neutral? That's literally the make a claim is not neutral So so my brother and I were bouncing back and forth different Examples of historical neutrality, which I think I read too. I don't remember if I read them on the show or not. But so I played hooky as a result because I was like, I need to not be the smartest person in the room for a bit. It is overwhelming. You know, it's a problem. Leanne has it dinner with you guys all the time. But it is it is over. I'm not going to try to argue.

There you go. It's like, you know. Well, hey, you know what? I have proof. She married you. Clearly, she's the smarter of the two. Okay. All right.

But what do you call it? So I played hooky and I did the most Damien on brand thing you could do. I went to eugenics conference so So and Yeah, so it was a conference discussing the history of eugenics in this area. It was not a pro eugenics conference No, but it was really neat number one. It was on my alma mater number two the students who were giving a presentation I Must say I was kind of wincing through and

I was like it just it didn't have that much mustard on it, you know Yeah, and then the Q&A session happened and they came alive. And I was like, oh, this is just about being good at presenting right now. Because every question people ask, they fire back with very knowledgeable answers, backup answers, all kinds of stuff. They knew their fucking shit. It was awesome. I was so proud for them, so happy for them.

So the only thing, the only thing that happened, it was essentially like they were a bit nervous to get off the starting block. I'm like, that's fixable, that you're gonna, but their research was solid as shit. And so I met a few folk, I discussed things with former mentors of mine, and just had a wonderful time

not being the smartest person in the room, and just learning what other people had researched. oh my god. I miss school like when I retire I'm just gonna go back to school and you just take whatever goddamn classes. I want to take So fun anyway, that's that's that's me Yeah, I would love to be doing that right now if I didn't also have a full-time job I had to be holding down. Well, that's what I said when I retire. Yeah. Yeah, I know Because yeah, my my masters is kicking my ass right now. But yeah, yeah So yeah, no, I totally understand very cool. Yeah

So when last we spoke you finally finished teaching me the history of all of Japan in terms of up to the era Tokugawa Shogunate, I'm sorry. Yeah up until the Tokyo was showing it. Yeah so To to backtrack slightly just you lay the groundwork to to then lead move ahead Hideyoshi has has by 1597 or so managed to basically become the number one shitkicker in all of Japan has subjugated, has subjugated enough of the island that everybody else pretty much has to do what he

says because he has enough power to force them if they don't. Right. So anybody who isn't directly under his, uh, uh, rule doesn't really have very much choice. Right. And he's sent expeditions to Korea because they won't let him march through Korea to go against the Chinese, which is really what he wants to do. And so he he knows that his own health is failing. So he calls together a council of five, five Daimyo. And it's it's Ieyasu Mm-hmm and four other major Daimyo, okay, it tells them you're gonna act as regents to my five-year-old son He Diori you're gonna be the regents to my heir so a better organized version of what Alexander did on his deathbed a Much better organized in the same way Yeah, yeah, the same way that I'm a better organized version of an amoeba

Yes, yeah magnitudes better There's a lot of extra steps, but yeah Like the difference in degree is such that it's straining the difference of kind. Yeah. Like, wow. So of these five, Ieyasu, because as I'd said before, Ieyasu was the second most powerful man in the country. So of these five guys, he's obviously the most powerful of them.

And so they'll be in charge of these areas. So they'll be like and like and and these areas are they are they just districts or do they have The there there's there's towns scattered of course all over Japan like burglars kind of thing kind of so These are five guys burger Meisters Nice nice Kind of so these are five guys burger Meisters nice nice And and so the idea is they're they're gonna be they're gonna be the ruling council when went because he knows he knows the Reaper is coming for him, you know, his health is failing rapidly and

Again as a reminder, there's there's a source that tells us and it's admittedly a pro-Tokugawa source, but it kind of makes sense because Hideyoshi was no dummy. He met with two of his most powerful personal retainers. O'Reilly Hidyoshi did? Yeah, Hideyoshi met with two of his most powerful personal retainers and told them... These were not of the five? This is not anybody on the council of elders This is this is his personal vassals sure okay, and he told them

When I'm gone toku go is gonna be unstoppable And for the sake of our clan that's EA's family Well, I was gonna say is this a brag or like a holy shit heads up This is this is okay look oh shit for the sake of my son, okay, and for the sake of the the Toyotomi clan you need to ally with Tokugawa Cuz they're cuz they're they're gonna be they're gonna be a freight train like when I'm not gonna be able to stand in there Nobody's gonna be able to stand in his way

Cuz just cuz he's seeing the momentum or Seeing the momentum and he has now for six or seven years now Ieyasu has been there in At Osaka Castle Okay, which was kind of Hideyoshi's headquarters. He's been at Osaka running things as one of the Daimyo that was kept behind that was not sent to Korea because number

one, you're a genius at logistics. This is one of the things you're really good at. We need somebody managing this. Also, I don't want you going there and earning any more prestige as a warlord. So you're either gonna get really good at logistics and you're gonna be a problem for me, or you're gonna get really good at, like a whole army remote from me, loyal to you, and you're gonna give them land

and you're gonna be a problem for me. Yeah, so. In some ways this is very like Lenin dying and saying, look out for Stalin. Very much. You know? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And so, so, and he knew, basically he understood that he was going to be the smartest man in the room, like in, in terms of being able to play two moves ahead of everybody else. And so he, he advised his, his highest level retainers. He said, when I'm gone, you need, you need to stick

to this guy because otherwise there's going to be a threat to, to the family. And so, uh, this state of affairs where we have a council of five daimyo ruling Japan Ostensibly in the name of the heir because Hideyoshi then died in 1598 and The the council of regents You said in 1598. Yeah, okay, so 1598 Sing it just I'm just this is interesting because this lines up with Elizabethan shit, too Yeah, it really like this. There's a lot going there's a lot of parallel stuff happening. Yeah, I want to know what the trade winds were Well, but no honestly remember when we had professor van on he talked about how like there there there were big belchings of dust into the

air by Krakatoa, I forget, but various volcanoes and shit, and that does have an effect. We know that because of something that happened in the Pacific, Stradivarius violins were especially sonorous, stuff like that. I am wondering what's going on where? Yeah, have these shifts in power because you went from the tutors to the stewards and now you're gonna have this regency But we all know the end of the story Ieyasu is gonna be the one in charge. Yeah. Yeah, so Okay, so And and the when when Hideyoshi, they called the armies back from Korea. They were like, we're not we're not going to keep you over there. We've we've spent a whole lot of resources spent a whole lot of time come home. And this is the state of affairs that we see at the beginning of the Shogun, the beginning of the novel

at the beginning of both series is that we have this council of five Daimyo, each of whom kind of has their own agenda, but they are sworn to serve Hidiori the heir. the air and two years go by, we get into 1600, which is the date in which Shogun takes place, the year in which Shogun takes place. And the show portrays Toranaga, who is Tokugawa Ieyasu's fictional counterpart. Sure. They portray him in a very precarious position Which is which is not not how it was He he was he was he was not holding all of the cards, but he had a very strong hand Do you think this was the author of Shogun? kind of seeing it through the lens of British

history because I mean again he's writing about the same time and so you know parallels are parallels you know like George Lucas wrote about the Viet Cong as Ewoks. Do you think that there was some Britishizing lensing there? Or is this just that's what makes for a better story for what he was trying to hang together? It's a little column A and a little column B. Because he wanted to give Blackthorn, his, his version of Williams, more, more of a role in, in the intrigue and in what wound up happening. Number one, and number two, it's, it's, it's just a more, it's a more compelling story when, when the guy who winds up being the one on top isn't? foreordained like you know and and

You know At the beginning of 1600 Ea also was in a very strong position, but he was not free to act unilaterally right position but he was not free to act unilaterally. Right. He still had to tread carefully. Yeah, he did still have to kind of watch his step and be careful about how boldly he chose to move. That was something he had to be careful about.

It's kind of, it was his to lose. Kinda, yeah. Yeah. And he had to make sure he didn't's kind of, it was his to lose. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he, he had to, he had to make sure he didn't fuck it up in the home stretch. Right. Right. So now historically, um, Hideyoshi's Castellan, one of his, one of his high

ranking nobles, but clearly not one of the ones he told ally with, with Ieyasu. A guy named Ishida Mitsunari. Okay. And this is a totally new name. He hasn't been relevant to our story until now. Right. He took on the mantle of essentially he became the leader of the anti Tokugawa faction.

Okay. So everybody who was everybody else who looked at it and went, okay, look Tokugawa is the you know 900 pound gorilla Right you know we we need to we need to band together You know to stop him and Mitsunari kind of took on took on the mantle of leadership of them Now this post the death of Hideyoshi. Yes. Yes, this is during the Regency. This is during the Regency Okay now in the series Ishiido is the fictional character that is the parallel to Ishida Mitsunari. Lord Ishido is a power, he's this Machiavellian

spider-like mastermind controlling this web of everything who has managed in the story, he's managed to maneuver Torunaga into a precarious position. He's managed to maneuver things so that the other four members of the council are kind of a raid against Torunaga and it's a Isshido has has gotten them to do this because he has essentially assuaged their their Christian tendencies. I'm going to get into the Christian aspect of this. I was gonna say wasn't there a banning of all the Christians or was it just the Jesuits or something like that? Like around this time too?

In 1590. Well, I'm gonna get to the details. I'm sorry to jump ahead, go, yeah, yeah. There was a really weird kind of Romanesque relationship to Christianity. Like officially, this is bad, they're enemies of the state, but if you have high enough rank or like, you know, he or she likes you enough He's gonna overlook the fact that you've secretly figured out how to include a cross in your family crest without it being obvious

Sure, like yeah, so I'll get to it. So just real quick Well, you said Romanesque when I taught Latin one of my favorite jokes that students came up with organically on their own Was they wrote, they read about something in their world history class that was Romanesque. And one of them literally looked at it and said, Romans and what? Because if you put a quay at the end of a word, it means and that thing. So Romanes. Quay. By the way, Romanes isn't really the thing, it's Romani.

But Romanes, quay, Romanes isn't really the thing. It's Romani, but Romanesque, Romanesque. And they were like legit angry at like Romans and what? Like just frustrated like go on. And they brought that to me and I was yeah, I was so confused. And then I spelled that out. I'm like, oh my god, you're brilliantly funny and you didn't even mean it. Yeah. Anyway, so Yeah, so they they are like the Romans and yeah so And and In historically speaking Mitsunari wasn't wasn't even one of the regents. He was not on the council

He was not that powerful. Okay Directly, he did not hold that kind of direct power his power was all influence and him being the guy that was Kind of stirring the pot and kind of making sure everybody was still remembering. Oh, yeah. No Tokugawa We don't trust that guy fuck that guy, right? Yeah and furthermore the sense I get of Mitsunari as Right. Yeah. And furthermore,

the sense I get of Mitsunari as an individual is he comes across as being kind of a prick. You kind of have to be at that level. Well, I mean, yes, yes. But like, but he seemed to revel in it or not really that he reveled. It was like you you have to be. Ambitious and willing to willing to hurt other people. Right. But he was like, especially he he he rubbed people the wrong way.

OK, OK. You know, it's not just that he was ambitious and a warlord which right by its definition You're kind of a prick, but like he he So he wound up getting himself a wrong foot like right from the get-go as soon as people started coming back from Korea Mm-hmm he got himself on the wrong foot With a bunch of daimyo who might have been sympathetic to him who were like neutral who had been you know hardcore Followers and retainers of Hideyoshi And and who were kind of like, you know Tokugawa. Yeah, I don't know. I hardly know the guy, you know, right Right and and Mitsunari might have been able to bring them over to his side

but in 1599 a group of seven of them Actually tried to kidnap Mitsunari and kill him. Oh Because he had One of his jobs in the government, you know back in Japan while they had been in Korea was he he had been Transcribing reports from generals that were in Korea for like giving essentially digests of what was going on to Hideyoshi. And these guys got

home and they found out what he had been saying about them. And they accused him of falsifying reports and making making making them look bad in order to Either elevate himself or or lessen them So you know they wouldn't look so great by comparison to him if that makes sense Say that again. I'm trying to make sure I have so so he was he was in Japan And he was he was trans Japan and he was he was transcribing reports. Right. So these generals were sending reports home right. It's an Ari was shading things to make them look less successful. Okay. So when they ask like they were lies, it's

because they wasted supplies. Yeah, they they fucked up. Right. Or if they ask for directions on what do we do next, it's because they are unable to figure out the next steps. Yeah, they're vacillating or they. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so they were they were furious when they'd found this out and and these are seven men with Thousands of their own soldiers Under them because this is still a feudal system, right? So this is this is a sizable kind of amount of military force that he has managed to alienate Well, what's really funny is mitsunari?

fled into Ieyasu's territory funny is Mitsunari fled into Ieyasu's territory. Okay. And it was Ieyasu who went out to meet these guys when they when they came riding up and went, all right, hey, hey, hey, all right, look, right. Let's not be hasty here. Sure. Let's everybody arbitrate, you know, and he acted as the arbitrator, uh, between

them to, to find, you know, a resolution to the whole situation. And in doing that, he won these seven guys over to his own side. So the council of five, they've just been end-rounded by the regent? So Mitsunari is the kid? No, Mitsunari is a functionary. He is a nobleman, he is a lord. He is a daimyo, but he doesn't have the rank of the members that run the council. Hideyori is the kid? Hideyori on the council. Oh, I'm sorry. Hideyori is the kid. Hideyori is the heir.

Oh, yeah. So, so Mitsunari is part of the... Ishida Mitsunari. He's part of the mechanism that is going to keep this Regency going. And because he doesn't play well with others, he fucks up. And he pisses off the, not the five, who were also trying to keep this going. He pisses off the seven who are in Korea Yeah, who were and have now come home, right? So and which is like Okay, so and then so the five were kind of supposed to counterbalance them

But because he fucks up then he runs to the one person that the five were supposed to stand against Well, no kids just took a guy was one of one of the five. Remember, oh, Tokugawa is a part of the council. Oh, I misunderstood that. I thought, yeah, no. Five other guys and then stand against him. Oh, he named he because because he knew he was like knew what he was doing and was going to run the country and OK. So this is how Tokugawa's consolidates power to himself.

Yeah. Okay. I thought this was just kind of an ironic, like it just fell in his lap yet again, kind of thing. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no essentially could have wound up in the anti-tokugawa camp if Ishida had had not fucked this up as it was They joined Ieyasu's side at least in part just because Mitsunari was a dick, right? Right, you know Which might actually have been part of the reason why Ieyasu didn't take direct action against him. Because again, Ieyasu and the five members of the council have all the rank.

They have the official authority. Mitsunari is again a daimyo, but they could order him around. And Tokugawa could have probably found a way to get the other four members of the council to go like, okay, no, like we all know Mitsunari is a dick. We got to like, we got to do something. He's a pain in the ass, but he didn't. And part of the reason might've been again, his talent for dealing with people. He may have recognized, look, if anybody else takes over on the opposition side, they might be more successful than he is.

Like they might be a more effective leader because Mitsunari pisses people off and the people who are allied with him are allied not because they're loyal to him, but because they don't like me if they got somebody over there who everybody was actually loyal to Then that could be a real like there could be a real problem there Right. So this kind of this predates Montesquieu, but like he could have drawn on this as an example Yes Okay. Yeah, okay This kind of this predates Montesquieu, but like he could have drawn on this as an example Yes Okay, yeah, okay and

At one point several several vassals of Hideyoshi's who were not in on the memo about ally with Tokugawa Did actually try to assassinate Ieyasu in 1599. Oh Mitsunari. Yeah, this is one the regency is one year old then. Yeah, the child's not one years old, right? You know, the child by this time would be five or six. Okay. Okay. Mitsunari wasn't implicated. Okay. He apparently was not was not behind it or, you know, he may have known

about it, but there was no evidence to prove he was the one behind it. One of the other regents was That dyno Offered up his own mother as a hostage said okay. Look this is my people there's my people who did this and I can tell that it looks like I'm the one you know, they're people I'm responsible for him sure so like I'm gonna I'm gonna as as you know pledge That I'm not gonna get up to any hinky shit here. You know I'm gonna send my mother to you as

a hostage right and I'm Asu punished all the perpetrators all of the perpetrators remarkably lightly Mm-hmm like he dispossessed a couple of them lowered the rank of several of them Moved a couple of them to different parts of the country, but like he only killed or only had executed three or four people who were you know directly Involved in you know, we're gonna break in and fucking kill him like they they got killed

But all the other people that were implicated their punishment was a was remarkably light and Because of his mercy Yeah, I was gonna say he turned mercy into a weapon. Yeah, yeah, any of them wound up on his side, right? Okay, okay So eventually over the over the next call it 18 months or so sure the daimyo of Japan all wound up divided into two factions the eastern faction Which is which is Tokugawa and the Western faction?

Ieyasu like I already said at the head of the East Mitsunari at the head of the West. Okay as in the show Several of the other regions were on the Western side Okay, but during the Korean campaign and in the two years after Hideyoshi's death Ieyasu had been shucking and jiving behind the scenes Ieyasu had been shucking and jiving behind the scenes to make all kinds of alliances with a whole bunch of other people and cement his own position. So is he setting himself up for a coup or is he setting himself up to take over when somebody else makes a move and kills the kid We may never know for sure okay in in the show the statement that gets made by Torinaga is He's doing this for the sake of stability for when, because somebody else, Ishido,

is going at some point to make a move, and he needs to be in a position to be able to survive and protect the realm from chaos. Okay, so that sounds really cool and really nice, but that also doesn't sound as avaricious, I don't know if that's a word, as everybody has proven to be so far. Nobody seems to be-

Grasping would be the word I'd use. Say again? Grasping would be the word I'd use, yeah. Because no one seems to be like, I am aiming for stability. It's, I am trying to stabilize my own power, sure. I am trying to take more, yes. yeah, I am trying to take more yes, and Maybe stability is a side effect of that, but that does not seem like the goal to anyone so that sounds like what it licensed to me

Am I correct on that um? Yeah so so and and What's really neat about the way? Especially the newer version of the mini-series does it. Like in, in, it shows up in the book pretty clearly in the first mini-series. It's it's. I'm not sure if I'd say it's soft peddled or if they kind of, kind of slip a little

bit on the landing, but they fucking nail it in the last couple of episodes of the new miniseries that mask slips Okay intentionally like like Toran Aga Basically comes around and says I'm going to be the Shogun Right this is this is you know, all of this has been to plan. Right. And, you know, it was, it was touch and go there for a while. You know, they had us in the first half, I'm not gonna lie, but, you know, all this has been to plan and, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm

gonna be the Shogun. Yeah, see, that's what gets me is that the, I'm gonna be the Shogun. Yeah, see, that's what gets me is that the, I'm gonna be the Shogun even feels a little too far in advance of any kind of real plan someone could have because you have so many moving parts. It's, how do I get on top of this moment? And yes, Shogun sounds nice. Yes, that would make it safer for me. But I've got these four crises in front of me that I have, you know Like it still sounds a little too. I'm gonna say Mary Sue a

little bit a little bit and and there's You know part of it is that after the Shogunate got established The only sources that were really available were the official sources Okay, yeah, which were to were the official sources. Okay. Yeah. Which were Tokugawa sources. So there's, there's that. And he's writing with that in mind.

And of course, destiny. Yeah. And, and Jesus, baby Jesus wants. Yeah. Or, or, you know, the Buddha or what have you. Sure. You know, um, and, and all of that is, is an issue. I think by the time he had managed to make it to this stage of the game, by the time

it was him on one side and Ishida Mitsunari on the other side. Like all I have to do is deal with Mitsunari and you know, the chumps that are following him. Right. And I will be, I, at that point, I'm I'm there like that. That's, that's check and mate. Right. And I'm, and I'm there. And again, you know, and then the game gets very different because then it becomes holding onto my power. Right. And staying there. Yeah, it's very different to seek it,

to fight for it, to grasp it, than it is to defend it. To hold it and maintain it, yeah. So. Does he, by any chance, because he knows the Regency and stuff like that, so he's got to act with like, I mean unless he's in open conflict with everyone, and it doesn't sound like he is, he's got to act, because he's part of the five, like you said, he's got to act with the idea of like, I'm trying to keep this Regency going, which is fine when the kid's a kid, but like,

does he make any moves to bring that kid under his sway more than the other four? Is there like marriages that happen? I mean, the kids like five or six, so I doubt it, but are there retro those or no. I actually need to brush up a little bit on the details of that part of the actual history. Okay. Because the thing is, Ieyasu didn't have the necessary in within the Toyotomi clan. Okay, to be able to manipulate who Hideo was going to be betrothed to. Okay. He had enough power that he and the regents could certainly strongly suggest. Sure. But he Yoshi's mother. It's like it's he or his grandmother is the is the is the figure and I don't remember, you know, what which which side you know, it's whether it's the kids maternal or paternal grand. Sure, sure. So but yeah, she she was the one in the elders of the Toyotomi clan were the ones that were in the position to

make that final decision. And even the regents had to be very delicate if they started, you know, being too pushy in the internal clan business like that. Yeah so most of what Ieyasu was doing was he was marrying off sons of his Two daughters of other powerful time you marrying daughters of his off to other powerful time you know He got grandkids at this point. Yeah, he probably does yeah Yeah, yeah, he did And yeah, so he's got you know know, grandchildren being married off to vassals and what have you. So he's kind of spreading from the center, not building up to the center.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's he's he's networking very intensely. He's making alliances with figures like Dottie Massamune, who was a huge, very influential, very powerful, legendary warrior, who was an important vassal of Hideyoshi. And he's bringing the Date clan kind of into the fold, allying with them, making nice with them. Dimeo farther north, he's making deals with, and he's solidifying the relationships that he's already been building with what used to be the Hojo and Taked, as his, as, you know, and so, um, in the show, Lord Ishido is a much more savvy politician than his real life counterpart was. Okay. And at the start of the show, he's got Toranaga trapped in Osaka castle, you know, and, and if Toranaga trapped in Osaka Castle, you know, and and if Toranaga leaves, that's going to

be interpreted as a sign of intending to start a war. Oh, wow. And and like, and the pieces aren't in place for that to for Toranaga to be ready for that yet, okay, so the other three regents in the show are supporting Ishido And Toronaga is portrayed as essentially being like a fox at Bay, okay? He's Wiley. He's cunning He's he there's there's always he's waiting for his spot. Yeah, he's he's trying to find He's trying to find where create a move right? He's he's trying to find he's trying to find or create a move, right? now the other three regents on the show in in the story is

Ishido and Toran naga and there are three others and all of the other three regents are Christians and In the show in the show, right in in history I want to say two of the majority of The of the Regents were not historically it's either one of them or two of them were were Christian And that brings us to I need to talk about the church in the Portuguese Okay so the I need to talk about the church in the Portuguese Okay so the

The Portuguese arrived in Japan. I mentioned this way long ago. They showed up in 1543, right? the context then was that they had introduced guns to Japan and You know as as I mentioned before that had really a seismic impact on the way the Sengoku Jedi was fought from that point forward. If I recall within 20 years, they had everything going. Yeah. Yeah. And now Portugal claimed a monopoly on European trade with Japan Thanks to a papacy brokered agreement of 1494 the Treaty of Tordesillas and Its follow-up the Treaty of Zaragoza which was signed in 1529

Based on the way those two treaties split the world up Spain got the Americas and Portugal got Africa and Asia Right, there's the line of demarcation. Yeah, and Spain got the Americas and Portugal got Africa and Asia. Right, there's the line of demarcation. Yeah, and there was a small piece of South America that became Brazil that was Portuguese. I do remember how, like now that you've mentioned the rest of the fucking world and where it divides from. I remember in my US history class, my teacher was very Catholic but he's very much an historian and he says, if you want to ever find out how much power someone has, and he draws a line. He's like, from here this way is all Portuguese,

from there this way it's all Spanish. He's like, notice how little land there is this way. And he I guess didn't know that that included Africa and Asia, or the Portuguese. It's a very America centric point of view, you know? Yeah. So, okay. Okay. So yeah, and and part of that was when when that agreement got made, that was in large part kind of an acknowledgement of what already was the shape of things. Because by 1494, Portugal had established trade outposts and colonies all over Africa because they had been the ones going around

the Horn of Africa to get to India Right for forever and they were the ones who had made it Goa Yeah, and and and then meanwhile the Spanish had landed in in you know, the They had the Spanish main they had the Caribbean. Yeah, they had they had the Caribbean They had you know that that whole region And so the church went alright. Well, this makes it easy

This side right here's here's what is this way you're clearly focused that way stop fighting. Yeah, we're done Yeah, knock it off and and then in in 1594 they had to go. Okay. Well, yes, I mean we already already knew the planet was a sphere, so now we've got to determine where the other line is. The other line is going to go right here. Well, it's nice to know they were much smarter than many of us. Yeah. So... And so Japan, China, India, and Africa were all Portuguese, while all of the Americas were Spanish territory. Right. Portuguese merchant missions were led by a royally licensed captain general.

So if you got in nice with the king, you could get, you could kind of purchase the title of captain general, okay, and They would leave Portugal and they would go down around the Horn of Africa because that was the way the Portuguese did it Go around the Horn of Africa And along the way picking picking stuff up doing trading along the way Get to China and they would load on Chinese silk Get to China and they would load on Chinese silk which they would then carry to Japan and

They would sell Chinese silk to the Japanese in exchange for Japanese silver Which they then carried back to China To purchase more silks to carry home, okay Okay, and this this made up the bulk of their trade with the Japanese. They also traded European luxury goods. Interestingly, they brought European made rapiers and other swords to Japan. And they brought a number of Japanese swords back to Europe

and what I find fascinating about that as a sword guy and a HEMA nerd sure is Both cultures treated the other cultures weapons as objects of art They they were they were curiosities weapons is objects of art. They were they were curiosities. Now, the Japanese, interestingly, the Japanese did look at the helmets and the armor that Europeans wore. And you can actually see

there were many Daimyo who would buy conquistador breastplates. Oh, wow. From the Portuguese because, because they were, they were supposedly more bullet resistant. They would buy Portuguese breastplates and, and attach a Japanese style attachments onto. So you'd have the, the Sode shoulder guards that would be laced, you know, the armor makers would drill holes in the shoulders of this European breastplate and then attach Japanese style shoulder plates and fittings for Japanese armor sleeves. And then they would have the

Kusazuri, which are the very distinctive kind of thigh protection that you see growing in thigh protection plates or lamellae that hung down from this thing. There's actually a very famous suit of armor that was worn by, it might've been Date Masamune. I don't remember off the top of my head. That actually they had also taken a Morian, you know, a Spanish Morian style helmet and added a side and neck protection, the very distinctive Kabuto style stuff to it. And so that's armor they did that with. But European swords, like Japanese, and if you have swords like Japanese and if you have Japanese swordsmanship does not involve very much in the way of thrusting because if you look at a katana it's a curved weapon and a thrust just isn't gonna be the way you're gonna you're

gonna use that right it's it's a slashing weapon whereas a rapier was developed for poke poke specifically as a pokey pokey weapon and vice versa so so when when katana and Tachi and what have you got taken to Europe it was like look at how beautiful the fittings on this thing are this so artistic look at all this and look at the beautiful patterning in the steel on the blade yes to wonderful work of art, but like, I'm never going to fight with it. You know, there was, there was no, there was no backing and for, there was no trade back and forth in martial techniques, which I find interesting, but there, there was this like, Oh, look at this beautiful artifact of this exotic culture.

So yeah, you know. I think there's something that's going on there though, because it does not take as much talent to wear armor as it does to effectively use a sword. I'm not saying it takes no talent. I am saying though that it's a much more passive talent. Move around in it, get a feel for it, okay, off you go. I am curious though about the bullet stopping stopping thing and I guess it makes sense because

Bullets were not going at a very high speed yet. Yeah, and they were balls mostly and so Spherical soft lead. Yeah, and those would ping off of a lot of Steel rest plates if you were If you were at sufficient range, there was a non-zero chance that it was gonna glance off. Right, whereas, I mean, there was this wonderful documentary that I saw on History Channel, so that tells you how long ago it was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a documentary on History Channel. And it was about the literal arms race between armor and weapons. So people started with padded armor, right? Just clothing that's very thick. Swords went right through it, axes went right through it. So then they developed stuff that would stop slashing.

Chainmail I believe does that pretty well. Then they had to come up with like, well, how do we get through that? Oh, let's start piercing through that. And you got to get pretty good at piercing. But then they're like, oh, projectiles can get really fast force multiplier, I believe you call them. And so then, okay, well, how do you stop that now? Oh, well, now we've got, you know, this, and it would just, you know, we're going to use scale armor, we're going to use this lamb alarm. And now it's harder. And then it's like, okay, well, what are we gonna use for that? Oh, we're gonna bludgeon the shit out of you now. Oh, okay. Now we're gonna use like steel plate armor

Yeah, right now everybody's carrying a war hammer, right? So yeah, and so now you're you're stuck in it, but at least you know, you're gonna break bones But you maybe not die, but then they're like, oh, here's crossbow bolts. They're gonna go right fucking through you they're like, oh, here's crossbow bolts. They're gonna go right fucking through you in that armor. And sure enough, and so then it was like, and then it's okay, we'll layer it, and on and on. And then it gets to the point where the armor is stopping everything,

and then they come up with bullets, and the bullets go right through that steel, because it does. And what the person brought up, as they said, you know, the irony is that one of the things that we found with Kevlar, why it works so well, is because it's literally just layers, which means if they'd gone back to quilted armor,

but instead they're like, fuck the armor, just walk around in khakis. It was- Well, yeah, they went back to what you see. Yeah, what you see then is is Cavaliers wearing a helmet, but I buff coat. Yeah. Yeah, essentially leather armor. Yeah Yeah, so it's just it was just kind of interesting how how it went, you know, yeah No, it's it's it's a it's a fascinating kind of level of development, right?

So so anyway kind of level of development. Right. So, so anyway, one of the other things, yeah, the Portuguese, one of the other things that early on in the Portuguese trade, they also bought enslaved Japanese people. Well, they're the Portuguese and the 1500s. So yeah, kind of that was actually one of my one of my notes But I mean the end and these were usually folks who had been captured in warfare, but as the Sengoku Jedi went on They also purchased people that were being sold by their families due to hunger, right?

In 1571 King Sebastian of Portugal outlawed the practice. And he may have been motivated by the fear that the slave trade was damaging or could be damaging to proselytization efforts in Japan, Christian missionary. Sure. efforts in Japan Christian Christian missionary sure So speaking of proselytizing At the same time that the Portuguese were making a full pile of money from the Japan trade They were also providing ships and other support for the Jesuits Society of Jesus okay to talk about the Jesuits real quick we have to talk about the counter-reformation Mm-hmm Now I'm not quick. Give me give me dates here for them being in Japan

The Jesuits yes Like for the period time that you're talking about or like 1543 Forward they were there from from the jump as soon as the point when when the Portuguese arrived they had Jesuit Missionaries on board their ships, okay So to talk about the counter-reformation I have to mention that on October 31st at 1517 a German troublemaker and in Martin Luther Who was angry at church policies, nailed an open letter to the door of the cathedral in the town of Vittenberg.

Yeah, he tweeted. Basically, yeah. And there has been a whole lot of emoting that has gone on in the history of this act of, you know, my God, he went up and he nailed this thing up to the door of the cathedral. It actually in a pre social media era, that was actually a common practice was like, Hey, I have these points of theology. I want somebody to debate with me about, and that's just what you did. Right. Yeah. It's bulletin board. Yeah. Yeah. So he, he nailed 95 theses, uh, to the, to the door. Um, and that act, um, kicked off a century and a half of religious conflict that indirectly led to the founding of European settlement in North America and over several generations of bloody warfare across the European continent. But for right now,

we need to just talk about how the church responded to it. Luther's ideas caught on in Europe with a population that was frustrated by centuries of church privileges and corruption within the institution of the church and a theology that as it was expressed by the church, really created rather than giving people a lot of comfort, had turned into a theology that for some people was a source of constant anxiety. the big difference between Catholic and Protestant teaching about salvation is Martin Luther and then Calvin after him basically taught you are never ever going to be worthy of salvation. There is no work you can do that will make you worthy. There is no way you are flawed. God is perfect. The only way that you can be saved is through the direct intercession of God in the form of grace. And you can achieve grace through faith. You reach up to God just by believing,

and God reaches down with grace to usher you into his presence, and that is salvation. Right. Now, I would point out, there had previously been a schism in the church, because you had East and West, you had, well, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox. Yes. So there had been a prior disagreement. There had been. Yeah. But it wasn't over these things. It was over a couple of different issues.

People like to make a big deal about icons. What it really wound up being about was the idea of papal supremacy. Right. And in the Eastern Orthodox, in the Orthodox world, the answer was, no, you're a bishop. We're all bishops. I don't answer to you. You're not the boss of me. Right. Peter or no Peter, you're no. Fuck off. I excommunicate you. And the Pope said, that's off. I actually hate you. And the Pope said, that's fine. I actually communicate you asshole. And on Easter, I think it was like during the year, there was also some disagreement over the calculation of when Easter was supposed to happen. That was like, but, but that's all, that's all in the weeds.

Stuff. The real, like the, the thing that fueled the anger that led to the two of them throwing the official finger at one another Was the idea of papal papal supremacy? Yeah, because there's this idea of like first among equals or no It's a hierarchy like rome is the center in and yeah Yes, or but that had also in many ways galvanized europe of yeah, not those people Yeah, and so that made more acceptable. The the we're going to market by worrying you about your soul.

Yeah. But like the next couple of hundred years, because like what you want to be like those assholes. Yeah. All right. Come on now. You know, you you want to fight the Turks? Shut up. Like it's. Yeah. And and and what you what you just said there about worrying about the state of your soul, cause you know, what I just described a second ago was

the, the answer Luther gave to the problem that had been created by the church, essentially saying you need to do works. And, and you need to go on pilgrimage. You need to do works. And, and you need to go on pilgrimage, you need to tithe, you need to there's, there's this laundry list of stuff that you needed to do. And if you put a foot wrong, too bad, so sad. Well, it'll cost you like there's always a way back because God has grace, but we've got the price sheet. has grace, but we've got the price sheet. Yeah.

Yes. And, and what's, what's, what's interesting is Luther was one of these people who was intensely wracked by terrible, terrible guilt and, and like self loathing like if you if you read his description of himself it's wow I think he was pretty concerned with the soul of his father specifically too if I was he was he was because his father his father had been yeah his father had been a very a very worldly very greedy very grasping grasping, very controlling kind of guy. And so, yeah, Luther was worried about the soul of his dad. And he was also worried about himself.

And he would have been, he was largely fine with the idea, doing penance and, you know, you've got to work your way back into God's good graces. What, what disgusted him was the way that had been turned into a financial arrangement. Yeah, I think it was the, if I recall correctly, it was kind of like the, the assembly line model of like gazing upon the finger bone of some saint or some shit that like threw him over the edge. That was already paid. Let's go. Let's go. Like, yeah, that was, that was one of one of a, one of a list of things that he saw when he visited Rome that made him, that just shocked him to his core. Well, they were talking to him him a priest. He's not even a layman. Like

a layman, I think he would have been fine, like seeing layman treated that way, but he's a fucking priest. Yeah. He's like, yo, I'm taking this shit serious. Quit treating me like I'm some rube. Yeah. Yeah. There's that. And then what really finally sent him over the edge, of course, was the sale of indulgences because people had, you know, the pope had said, okay, we need to raise money because I have bankrupted the church with my lavish lifestyle. Isn't he the one that was like, just to prove God's grace, he would like have gold in place settings, he'd eat dinner on like the Tiber River and then he would just throw it into

the river afterwards. That sounds like him. Yeah, there was a pope who did that but the best part was, because you know I like a grifter and I'm already predisposed, but like he had a net under the water and it would catch it off. Oh yeah, oh yeah. You've got to admit. No, that's yeah. You can't even be shitty the right way. Yeah. But anyway, yeah.

Like the dude like again, and it was again in the name of look, how good God is. And, and it's honestly, it, it's prosperity gospel 500 years earlier. It's it's kind of actually what's, what's funny is it's kind of, actually what's, what's funny is it's kind of almost a mirror image of prosperity gospel is prosperity gospel heresy is based on the idea that, um, if you are one of the elect, if, if God, if you, if you do the right thing, God will reward you in this life, right? As well as the next and indulgences were you can use the rewards you've

earned in this life to save yourself some trouble in the next one. Right. And, and I was thinking more along the lines of it's obvious that God's grace is available to all of you because of the prosperity I have. I am therefore a living icon of the thing that you seek. That's why your tithing needs to come to me because that shows your faith in a God who allows this to be. Like it's that indirect. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's

an that's an indirect second or third order kind of thinking take on it. That's that's not anything that anybody would have would have been claiming, but you're not wrong. Right. Yeah. That way it becomes a background pattern to what's going on? Yeah, and so anyway You know Martin Luther basically points out, you know At one point he literally says in in a crowded room full of his own followers that the papacy is swimming and shit Right. I love I love pointing out when we get to the Reformation and left pointing out that oh, yeah Luther had a potty mouth like Luther When we get to the Reformation, I love pointing out that, oh yeah, Luther had a potty mouth. Like Luther, any Lutherans in the room, yeah, something you need to know about your man, he swore like a sailor.

Well, and he was German, right? So it's even better. Yeah, because if you've ever heard German, German swear words, like a stream of German invective, it's yeah, it's one of those languages. It's great to swear in English being Germanic is actually really honestly another one. That's one of our strengths, I think. Yeah. So, so a whole lot of people flocked to this Protestantism because they were protesting against the institution of the church. Right.

And the church responded by actually reforming some policies like the next pope after the one that so scandalized Luther. The next pope came in and was like, okay look we can't admit it publicly But he does make some important points, right? and so there were there were significant reforms that got made there was you know a lot of like none of the direct theology got changed but the tone of it and the and the emphasis

Got changed significantly and then in order to counter the threat of Light from the church by people becoming Protestants the church began engaging in widespread missionary activity the church began engaging in widespread missionary activity, which wasn't really anything that the Catholic Church, the Western Christian Church, had had to do since,

you know, the fall of the Roman Empire, basically. Right. And one of the missionary orders that wound up being most favored by the papacy was the Jesuit order, Society of Jesus. The founder of the order, St. Ignatius of Loyola, had been a soldier before becoming a priest. And so the character of the order has still to this day, still has a very quasi military kind of character. The members take on the mantle of being soldiers for Christ and colloquially they're often

referred to as God's Marines. And wherever they went, Jesuits worked to try to build relationships with the upper and ruling classes in society because they believe that one of the ways to affect widespread conversion was to get people in leadership positions to convert, and then they would then bring that they ignored evangelization among common people. They preached to whoever would listen, but they gained a reputation for being diplomats and for working within the courts of like, and I mean, like a royal courts, not necessarily law courts, but working within the, the holes of power, wherever it was that they went. And Franciscans and Dominicans also showed up in Japan and also worked to try to gain converts. But the Jesuit mission was the most heavily financed and was the strongest one.

They succeeded most dramatically in the southern end of the country Getting several daimyo of Kyushu to convert and bring their vassals with them Okay He did he didn't trust him Didn't like him and he tried to suppress Christianity Notably he ordered the arrest and crucifixion of the 26 martyrs of Japan in January of 1597. The 26 martyrs are have been canonized by the church as saints. They have a saint's day. But as a collective, like as well.

Yeah, as they have a saint's day as a collective, they have been canonized individually. But individually still with like the, these are the guys from the 26th. Yes, yes. Okay, it's like Barry Windham is not in the Hall of Fame. Barry Windham is in the Hall of Fame because he's part of the Four Horsemen. Yeah. Yeah. He's in the Hall of Fame. Barry Windham's in the Hall of Fame. But he's in the Hall of Fame as part of the Four Horsemen. Yeah. Yeah. He's in the Hall of Fame. Barry Winnum's in the Hall of Fame. Yeah. But he's in the Hall of Fame as part of the Four Horsemen.

Right. Okay. So same idea there. So did, now did the Japanese just love irony or like, was there a misunderstanding of what martyrdom meant? Because crucifying Christians, again, like game, recognize game here. I love it. Not as a general policy. I don't want people thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, if you're going to, if you're going to do this, let's, you know, if you're going to be brutal and like suppress Christianity in the 1500s, fuck yeah, you should be crucifying them. Like, especially, especially if it's the priests like yeah

Don't fuck up the laypeople. You know me but like They didn't know any better. Um, but like if you are like driving these guys out short of poisoning all the bakeries. Um this is definitely the second best way to do it like just Definitely the second best way to do it like just Okay, why is it a gold bakery's that I know I yeah Like so was this So was this a love of irony or was this no? misunderstanding of Japanese know the Japanese within within Japanese society

Feudal Japanese society crucifixion was was an established Method of execution for or committing certain crimes Did they do it like I'm sorry? This is gonna sound so bad, but yeah, did they do it like, I'm sorry, this is going to sound so bad, but did they do it horizontally instead of vertically? Because the writing goes the other way. The writing's vertical and not horizontal. So no, no. Okay. They, they, um, they, my understanding is it did not involve the Japanese method did not involve nails. You were lashed up onto the cross because it takes a lot longer, but it was a cross. Yeah. Wasn't like an X.

It was, it was, it was a cross. You know, they're there. The Jehovah's witnesses try to insist that, you know, Jesus wasn't actually crucified on a cross, the museum was up on a post. No, we, we know from contemporary, you know, accounts that, no, no, they were actually on crosses, um, and you know, brutalized and publicly humiliated in the whole nine yards, which is really why you use crucifixion as a public method of execution is for humiliation.

Yeah. It's spectacle violence. Yeah. Yeah, well, and it's miserable to suffocate to death. Yes. Like that's awful. Because when you notice you're suffocating, you try to hold yourself up,

and eventually you just get so exhausted. That you can't do that anymore. You can't, and that's where it really, I mean, that's where you die, but that's where it's really fucking awful. You've already had three days of like straining all your muscles. Yeah.

But okay, so you said they flogged them while they were up there? Did they? They, I don't remember all of the specific details, but they were brutalized and then crucified, and it was an awful, awful death. And they clung to their faith and in the face of it and are recognized by the church as martyrs

sure and I'm sorry I have to ask this question yeah um and I don't mean it as disrespectfully as it's going to sound okay okay I'll keep that in mind. Yeah as disrespectfully you're right right sound. Yeah, um glib sure Irreverent of course yes respectful no yeah, all right, okay? How to put um Were there any trappings of Jesus's crucifixion visited upon them as well was there there a stab to the side? Was there a crown shoved on them? No. Okay, because you already said there was no nailing. So I was just like, is there any part of,

the reason I ask is because I got kicked out of class when I was a senior in high school for laughing at the way that I think it was Peter got crucified upside down. Yeah. And because, and I got kicked out because I laughed my ass off and could not stop because I visualized it. And the way I visualized it was like, I am not worthy.

No, you cannot crucify me like this. In other words, he was in, in my mind, he was like, I can't be crucified that way. You know, you're going to have to kill me a different way. And they're like, right, no problem. Upside down, Zease. And, and, and, and picturing the look of shocked bullshit. that way you know you're gonna have to kill me a different way and they're like right no problem upside down Z's and And and picturing the look of shot like bullshit Well, yeah, and just wait up right that's me, but you're probably wondering how I got how I got here. Yeah, oh So okay, I'm wondering if there was any

Because Romans were really petty that way Yeah, well Romans have you as you've said the Romans were the biftan of world empires. Yes. Yeah, they were petty that way. But the Japanese did not do any kind of like stabbing violence or crown violence. Yeah. See, the thing is, the thing is, the Romans were petty enough to like to question to like question people but okay so I need you to tell me what exactly you you think God has to say like I want to know the details and then I'm going to mock you for that like I'm gonna I'm gonna

pick that as the way because petty and yeah and and that's and that's just so intensely Roman is like oh yeah no I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to very specifically and very meticulously mock you point for point for point for point on this while you're dying in misery right the Japanese just did not give enough of a shit okay Okay, yeah. Okay. Like, it was it was this is a religion that is that is contrary to our cultural traditions. This is a religion that places this this figure, you know, above the worldly authorities to whom you should be owing your highest loyalty, like, you know, and and like, we're just not going to have any of it. Fuck you. We're, we're going to kill you. And that was it. They did learn enough to institute a religious test when, when Christianity was being actively

suppressed, if they were suspicious that somebody was a Christian, they actually mass produced little bronze plaques with the image of Christ crucified on them, and they would fling the plaque on the ground and they would say step on it. And And they would say step on it And Anybody who refused to step on it got pulled out of line and sent off to to imprisonment. Oh wow

But that was that was essentially the extent of it like they didn't they didn't care about what Christian doctrine was they didn't like no Right your you identify as being this deviant thing and you know, right? That's the proof, you know, yeah, I mean that sounds very Pliny using the the ten commandments as a checklist. Yeah. Yeah Yeah so So all right martyrs 26 martyrs 26 41 Ronan. Martyrs. 21 Ronin. Yeah. 88 lines, about 44 women. Women, yeah. Nope, I'm sorry, they didn't use nails, so that can't work.

No, there you go. Yeah, in a way, not entirely unlike... Francisco was a Jesuit. He's the one that put it up. Not wrong. Yeah. The policy kind of waxed and waned. Like you know, much like the way it happened with the Romans, it was like it depends who the emperor is and like you know how hard over they are about this whole persecuting

Christians thing. There are periods of time in Roman history where it's like well on the books it's illegal, but we don't have the time or the energy to give a shit. Like we're not actively hunting people down. Like well on the books, it's illegal, but we don't have the time or the energy to give a shit like right We're not we're not actively hunting people down and then there were you know, there was Julian the apostate It was like no, I'm gonna find him. We're gonna kill him We're going back to classical Roman values because you and me gallally. Yeah Yeah Just Yeah So just Was some of the like relaxing like okay

They've been frightened off enough that they hide in the shadows and that's enough for us. I Think so. Okay, because otherwise you're looking at your eradication and that takes a lot of energy that takes so much work. Yeah and so after he took power Ieyasu eventually outlawed the practice for Christianity by the Japanese in 1613. Now that's an important distinction by the Japanese. Yes, yes, and he specifically kicked the Catholic, Spanish, and Portuguese out of the country But he allowed the dutch to stay in nagasaki Because they weren't interested in converts

They only wanted money Oh, wow when the dutch showed up in japan, right? Yeah, so it was like, okay. I like you guys I can deal with you guys. Yeah You you don't care about saving anybody's soul You just want to prove that you're gonna get into heaven by getting rich, right? If that's what works for you, that's fine But I'm only going to let you be in this one part of the country where I can Surround you with my secret police and know like every time every member of your mission takes a shit

was Nagasaki where the the previous Christians had been killed or? Nagasaki, Nagasaki is in the south of the country. It's where most of the most of the foreign trade had taken place. OK, so it's not in the shadow of you fuckers get out of line you see those crosses there they could be yeah No, it's not that no, okay. It wasn't it wasn't that it was just this is there's there's an island at the middle of the Bay of Nagasaki That we can keep you on. Oh

Wow, so they're they're on an island there. They're on an island. Okay, they can you know, they you know, limited, you know, the people in charge of the mission can get a boat to get, you know, onto the mainland to make deals and do whatever they have to do. Most of the time it's the Japanese going out to their island. Sure. Like, it turns out being one of the people sent on the Dutch mission to Japan, like if you were part of that trade delegation It was actually kind of a bummer

Yeah, like unless you have a real love of foreign cuisine and I mean a foreign because you're Dutch, you know, yeah and and you're like, I mean I Can't see first sons being like no no, no, no, I'm going. Yeah, no, no. Yeah. Second sons are like, could I just not fuck? I'll join the priesthood. No, son, y'all.

And actually, depending on circumstances, I might not even have to stick to that. But yeah, can I just go join the church? Yeah. Right. So, okay, so. Shitty duty. Yeah, but we're getting ahead of ourselves there in the, in the series. The Jesuits have an important role because they are, they are the, uh, they, they have ingratiated themselves to Ishido and three of the members of the council who are Christians.

And they are important to the story because one of the things that the Jesuits were very, very good and very professional about and gained a reputation for was they would study the languages of the people they were working to proselytize. They would develop dictionaries and then send those dictionaries back to Portugal to train more priests. So when a, when a Jesuit showed up on mission, he at least already knew enough to carry on a very basic conversation with whoever he was going to be talking to. talking to. And they were very scholarly. And so it wouldn't just be, you know, Portuguese and you know, Japanese, it would be, you know, Portuguese, you know, Latin, because 1500s and you're a priest. Right. And you probably know English and you likely know French as well. You know, you're you're these these these men would be multiple polyglots. There's a reason why schools are still like very highly regarded

amongst the parochial schools. Yes. Yeah. And and so in the story, we have two very important Jesuit figures. We have Father Alvito, who is a rank-and-file Jesuit soldier of God priest, and we have Father Delacqua. Okay. And Father Delacqua is actually based on a historical figure. Delacqua is based on the Jesuit father visitor. That was his title. Father visitor. Okay. Alessandro Vali. No, who is an Italian born Jesuit who was actually in Japan in 1600. It was one of several couple of year long visits he made

to Japan. He was responsible not only for the Portuguese, not Portuguese, the Jesuit rather mission in Japan. He was responsible for the Jesuit mission in East Asia. So Japan, China, the Philippines, Mughal Empire. Yeah. Yeah. Because I want to say and I want to say India. Akbar's kicking around in the Mughal Empire in like the 1540s, I wanna say, or 15, or sorry, 1540s? Yes, or 1450s. Anyway, like, wait, the Jesuits started, yeah, yeah, 1540s, I wanna say, 1540s.

And he really loved having a couple Jesuits in his court. Oh, yeah, because they they were they were very smooth. Yeah, very educated. And well, you know, he loved talking religion with folks too. Like that was his I mean, he ended up creating his own. Yeah. You know, but it's read himself into heresy if you will yeah but is in ee a la he I think it was called yeah but which by the way you used you you very expertly use that line read himself in heresy yeah that's

something other orders in the Catholic Church like to accuse the Jesuits of doing damn book learning yeah friend friend of the show Sean grew up attending parochial schools his parents are are devout Catholics and and around about the age of 13 after attending Jesuit schools for a number of years

he became a pagan yeah and to this day his mother i have heard her i have been in the room when she has said Damn it. Why did we send you to Chesimates? Like Hello, you know, yeah, so yeah, okay, but like yeah, that's so there is there's an East Asia thing Yeah, okay, and so so Where do I missed I lost his name again

Valignano Delacqua yeah yeah Delacqua is the fictional character the historical figure Valignano was was a big cheese you know is a very very important figure and and my favorite thing about this guy about Valignano is he actually wrote a dissertation like for training purposes mapping the Jesuit hierarchy right on to Zen Buddhist monastery hierarchy oh as a way for Jesuits to understand the enemy Wow Okay, because he he Needed the Zen Buddhists

Like he he wrote in in in florid Scorching term huming you can feel the rage coming off the pages you read it Wow you know because because he looked at the goal of Zen Buddhism Which is extinction, right? and and was just he was convinced it was absolutely inspired by Satan and it like you know

so yeah, he had he had this utter contempt but he was like we can map there so you understand who you're dealing with you know this is this is how their hierarchy works you know mapped onto how our hierarchy works like this is the kind of thing that Jesuits did for their missionary work right I'm sorry I just love the idea of thing that Jesuits did for their missionary work, right? I'm sorry. I just love the idea of Satan being a Zen Buddhist, or just being like super chill. Super chill. Now, what you also need to remember is Japanese Zen Buddhism is often not super chill.

Right. Like, it's, it's, it's well and and you know, as we've said before, one of the defining characteristics of Japanese culture is there is no half-assing anything. There is this there's this underlying level of valuing absolute commitment. Right right to anything and everything and and what that can sometimes lead to is some remarkable dogmatism Yeah, which you know Recognize well, you know the thing is but you know, like my dogmatism is in the service of a good cause your dogmatism Is just backward and like satanic. So some Jesuit Mickey Avalon shit

Yeah just backward and like satanic. So some Jesuit Mickey Avalon shit. My dick. Yeah. You know. So when when Balin Yano arrived in Japan, he castigated just absolutely excoriated that's what I'm looking for, he excoriated his predecessor in the position because he looked at the way things were being done in the mission in Japan. And he called out the way that many members of the mission held racist and disparaging attitude toward the Japanese and even toward Japanese converts, toward Japanese customs. And he said, we can't have this attitude and expect to win people over. This is bad marketing.

It's bad. It's bad marketing. Yeah. And so he's this fascinating figure who is, you know, a thousand percent entirely devout in that medieval European, you know, Christ is the singular way and the light and you know. I'm a fisher of souls. Yeah, yeah, and you know at the same time as dogmatic as he was there, he's also looking at like

this is inhumane, this is not cool, you can't treat people this way like Wow, anyway now is he that way because he sees their value as people or because it gets in the way of the mission Yes, okay, I mean fuck I'll take it in that in that time that's that's like being Abolitionist in the 1800s in America. Like, oh, you're still racist, but you're a step below. Yeah, yeah. Now in a case of one of the things in the series actually gets right historically, when William Adams, who is our Blackthorn, our historical person that Blackthorn is based

on, when William Adams arrived in Japan, he was shipwrecked, that's also correct. The Jesuits who were called to act as interpreters because, hey, it's one of these weird gaijin round-eye barbarians, we're going to have to go get our, you know, religious round-eye barbarians to talk to him. Right. They, of course, immediately figured out he was an Englishman, and they did historically immediately tell the authorities, Ieyasu among them, that this guy's a pirate. He needs to be executed. And that's, and that's a, that's a big plot

point in the series is, um, one of the things Blackthorn is, is immediately worried about is, Oh God, have they found my, have they found mine and the captain journals? Because the journals and the ship's logs talk how they raided Portuguese shipping on the way there and That made them pirates and according to Basically everybody's law at the time didn't matter where you were Pirates get hanged Right and and you know and as a matter of fact the Japanese had gotten a hold of their journals and they had handed them over To their round-eye barbarians to, hey, what does this say?

Right. And the Jesuits came back and went, yeah, they're pirates. Kill them. Right. Yeah, yeah. And the conversation between Adams and Ieyasu in which in the series there's this really really dramatic moment at the end of episode, it's either episode two or three, and I'm going off the episodes of the new series, not the mini series. not through a Jesuit but through Lady Mariko because Adams speaks Portuguese. He knows the language of his enemy. So he speaks in Portuguese. Mario Mariko translates from Portuguese to Japanese because she's learned it because she's a

Christian. So anyway, he explains through Lady Mariko, he says, yes, I'm a Christian. No, I'm not the same as them. Right. There's more than we're, we are, we both are Christians, but we're different. They are my enemies. And by the way, uh, he draws, he draws. Yeah. And by the way, he draws, he draws, yeah. Jesus preached love and peace and it's like, no, they're my enemies. They're Christians just like me.

But they're not like me. And Jesus is like, you know. Importantly different. Good Samaritan, like, yeah. Can't we all just get along? Yeah. So, and then what he does is, uh, he uses their, their, their audience. His, his interview is taking place in the middle of a, of a stone garden, a Zen stone

garden. And, you know, he asks if we can stand up and he says, I have something I have to show his lordship. And he takes a stick and he draws, he says, this is you guys in Japan and this is my homeland in England and this is the Americas. And I sailed all the way down here and around the corner and I came this way and the Portuguese go this other direction from their home and they come by the other direction. And what you need to understand is they believe that they have a right to control this place because they've divided the whole world up between them and another enemy of mine, the Spanish. And he basically explains the Treaty of Tordesillas of 1494. And that's the moment in the book and in the series, that's the moment when Toranaga is like, oh

this is way bigger than I thought this was and This guy is gonna be useful Because I can get stuff out of him without having a deal with the Jesuits with the Jesuits, right Now what's what's not quite so historically accurate is the level of desperation depicted in the show for Delacqua to get Blackthorn eliminated. Historically, the Jesuits were like, they're pirates. They've committed these crimes. The law says they've got to be killed. They've got to be executed.

And, and like the, the, uh, captain general and the Jesuits were like, this is a wrinkle in our plans, but this is one guy and we've been here for 50 plus years. Right. You know, they were, they were not, it wasn't like, Oh my God, this is going to bring down our entire house of cards. You know, right. It's not hubris, but it's, it's, it's not being alarmist. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and so in, in real life, uh, he, Ieyasu's position was, was less precarious than in the show. And so when Ieyasu basically said, nah, this, Igiristo, which is the Japanese way of saying Englishman, this Igiristo is pretty cool and he's potentially useful.

So he's going to ignore the fact he's a pirate. The Jesuits don't come up again anywhere in Adam's story. In the show, the Jesuits actually wind up working against Toranaga specifically because of Blackthorn. And Toranaga in a moment of and Torunaga in a moment of Fox-like brilliance outwits them. And it's a moment where Blackthorn has been working to get close to Torunaga because Torunaga is the one who's most likely to be able to protect him. And then they get into the situation where, you know, the Jesuits are working with the other regents, you know, and Toranaga basically says, you know what, that's fine. The Englishman isn't with me anymore. But you know, if you want

what you need, because the captain of the black ship is like, I need the letter to leave. I need permission to leave. And Torunaga is the one who can do that. He says, yeah, I'll give you permission to leave. And you can deal with all these other folks, including Blackthorn, however you want to, but I gotta get out of here. And that's this moment early on in the show where, you know, the balance between

Blackthorn and Torunaga is is teased out more. And Blackthorn realizes that he has to play things more more cajoling than he has been. Anyway, there's really dramatic sequence of, you know, Blackthorn having won over the crew members of one of the Japanese ships because he knows what he's doing as a pilot and all of this. Right. So anyway, but historically, you know, Adams was kind of a non entity. Like he was an annoyance to the to the Jesuits.

Sure, sure. But he wasn't this like existential threat Right because they I mean they History is not So deterministic it's not yeah edible so They missed the play because there's no play to catch Yeah, also like

because there's no play to catch. Yeah. And also like, what in history would have shown them that they need to worry about a single guy who shows up shipwrecked, who like, dude's a fucking pirate, what's he gonna know? Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. But you have heard of me. So, and then in the novel and the series, the other kind of Christian figure that's

important for analysis for us here is Lady Mariko becomes the love interest for Blackthorn. And she has a, the character has a real life counterpart in history, a Christian noble woman named Hosokawa Gracia. Gracia was her baptized Christian, Christianized, baptized name. Gracia was related, you're going to recognize this name, I think, she was related to Akechi Mitsuhide. And he's the one who assassinated Oda Nobunaga right okay So you know you have family lineage stuff going on right? She was she was married to an ally of Ieyasu in the same way that Mariko is married to a vassal of Torinaga Okay now historically she never met Adams. There was never any relationship between the two of them and

Hosokawa, Gracia's death Parallels but does not match Mariko's death in the series which by the way spoiler alert Mariko dies In Shogun alert, Mariko dies. In Shogun, she has gotten inside Osaka Castle, which is kind of Ishido's center of control. And it's where he's holding all kinds of people hostage, but it's this weird like, no, no, they are my guests. I'm not holding them hostage, but like he's totally holding them hostage and She tries to leave like

Toranaga sends her orders and says I need you to come to me Okay, is he he has escaped the castle and and is doing his thing And he sends orders to her and he says I need you to come to me Mm-hmm, and she thing. And he sends orders to her and he says, I need you to come to me. And she gathers up the Toronaga retainers that are still there in the castle and she starts leaving. And there's this remarkable sequence of her marching out of the castle with all these retainers and it turns into a fight. She winds up picking up a naginata, which was traditionally a weapon that was taught to samurai noble women.

And she does some ass kicking of her own with a naginata, but she and the men with her are outnumbered. There is no way they're gonna be able to escape and the whole thing has kind of been a gesture anyway She retreats to her chambers and that night commits seppuku Because she has failed her lord. So she has to do that. Okay, and her suicide lays bare the artifice of Ishida's position and And essentially it becomes it's now everybody can look at and go Ishida is really trying to is really trying to make a move

He's really trying to maintain all this control and he's trying to grab power for himself by holding these people hostage which then Creates space for Torinaga to make his move Okay, okay it's this it's this relationship between you know the the kayfabe of you know these these I'm maintaining the face of

You know this this civility and this and this you know Mannered kind of you know situation when in fact right, you know I am now now now the raw power of the equation has been laid bare which then gives Toran Aga You know freedom to move mm-hmm to simplify because it's complicated now historically To simplify because it's complicated Now historically Grasset didn't die by suicide Because her father confessor

Advised her that it was a mortal sin Which according to Catholic doctrine it is one right now She was caught in a position of being held prisoner by Ishida Mitsunari in Osaka Castle now Mitsunari and Ieyasu had been had been gathering their their power and all of this and Mitsunari Surrounded Osaka Castle not because it was any center of his power but because

under Hideyoshi, Osaka Castle had been the center of the government effectively. And so a lot of the families of high ranking Daimyo were there. So he surrounds Osaka in order to ipso facto hold all of these people hostage and, and create a situation where he can, he can send emissaries to Daimyo who might be sitting on the fence and go, Hey, just so you understand, I'm in control of Osaka. Right. Your mom's there. Your wife's there. Right. Air is there. Like, you know, who do you want to support? Right. Um, and so, uh, when Mitsunari soldiers moved to seize, uh, Hosokawa Gracia and her retainers in their

mansion within the complex of Osaka Castle. Her household retainers, one of her household retainers killed her, set the mansion on fire and then committed seppuku himself. So he's not a Christian. So he's not a Christian. Not a big deal. Yeah. The fact that he killed her on her behalf is technically not suicide. So so so here's the thing. Japanese sources a generation later, and then after that sources quoting those sources said, yes, you know, lady, lady Hosokawa, you know, ordered or, you know, she'd been told by her

father confessor, she could not take her own life. So she ordered this retainer to to kill her, you know, to to save the honor of the family and you know, prevent her being used as a hostage the thing is That's a very Japanese way of Lionizing osaka, agressia Okay, because to the to the Japanese frame of reference the well, I can't kill myself, but I have to die. Right.

So you do it right. Right. Doesn't take into account the nuance of the Christian position, which is if you tell someone else to kill you, that's the same thing. So she probably did not actually tell one of her, one her her retainers to do it her husband did There are sources contemporary to events that say that Gracia's husband Tadoki Had given had given orders to the household retainers that if her honor is ever threatened meaning if there's likelihood that she's gonna be captured and assaulted

Killer Spare her spare her having that happen to her. She's not gonna kill herself I know I'm gonna kill herself right right I mean like she should but she's not gonna do it so to spare her that Kill her and so that's probably what that was. Okay. Okay and so Just as a side note suicide is still a mortal sin in Catholicism, but the church recognizes that significant mental health issues Reduce one's responsibility for it and it is explicitly stated in the catechism that

through the mystery of the grace of God, salvation is still possible. We don't know the mechanism how, but you know, God's grace is infinite and you know, which is very comforting to know, you know, in the face of knowing anybody who has who has done that. So it's nice to see that they're more lenient about mental health issues than yeah, like, well, you know, our understanding. Yeah. Um, our, our understanding like in society, our scientific understanding of, of conditions like depression or, you know, uh, schizophrenia or any of the conditions that might lead one, you know, psychotic episode, whatever, that might lead one into acting out suicidal ideations, you know, our understanding of that informs what, what, what the church teaches. The church is often very slow on catching

up to those things. But they also don't go backward as quickly. Like, you know, very true. We, you know, when, when we we as a society come up with like, okay Well, we have decided that we're going to not destroy The ozone layer and we're gonna work with a whole bunch of other countries to fix what we fucked up. Yeah. Yeah, and now we're like Regulations shmegulation It's like no we have a working model here. Like at least like the Catholic Church. Yes, they they fucked with Galileo, but like now they're like, no, he was right.

That's on us. Yeah. Yeah. And they're not going to reverse from that. No. Which is nice. Yeah. So I think this is this is a good place to to kind of stop because. Sure. Next, I'm going to I'm going to wrap this all up by talking about kind of the relationship between the original Series the original miniseries and the most recent series And then talk about you know why why is it that we had this thing in?

1979 1980 and why do we have it again in 2023? What's going on that brings us back? Yeah, I'm sure you do, and you're probably right. It starts with an R and ends with an ump, and there's two words in between. So. Ah, yeah, okay. And there's two words in between. Both shows came at the end of a single term Democratic president.

Yeah, yeah, so no, I'm excited to find out that's cool. Yeah. So what is your takeaway? At this point? Um, with us now finally entering, no kidding. I really mean it. The home stretch. Yeah. Just how vastly different the cultural expectations are in feudal Japan than obviously now. Like again, I come at it from, I studied Rome. So that's my lens. And suicide was a thing.

Suicide was absolutely an expected thing, but it was like, that's how they let you out of it, not that's your fucking duty. It's you're going to die. You know that. Do you want to do it your way and we'll take care of your family or do you want to do it our way and we'll dispossess your entire line? And that's very different than like, hey, mom mom you have a duty to murder yourself Like yeah, you know or hey 18 year old son of mine I'm worried that you're going to grow up and be more powerful. You should kill yourself and the son being like Damn. All right. Yeah, like I'm just like what like that's that is a whole different conception of suicide that alone

Really kind of was gobsmacking for the last three episodes I also, I really There's something I enjoy about the fact that I enjoy about the fact that the capital of life and politics in Japan keeps changing from place to place. It's not just Edo, which now is Tokyo. It's not just Osaka. It's not just like, like there's multiple loci of this stuff because it's generating

like London has been fucking London forever to take another island culture. London has been it for a long ass time. Yeah, I mean that's been like the capital ever since William came across. Yeah. You know, even before that, quite honestly, but like, you know, that's where they set up power,

you know, and it's like, whereas Japan was like, nah, it's gonna move with who the powerful people are. Yeah. And there's something really interesting about that to me. So those are a couple of my takeaways. So I, yeah. Yeah, all right. Cool, cool. Yeah. Are you recommending anything book wise? Or movie wise or show wise? This time around I am going to, I'm gonna one more time, I'm going to recommend if you haven't already done it, find either on Hulu or I think you can get it through Disney Plus.

Find the 2023 Shogun series and really give it a watch because it is really, really well done. All of the performances in it are amazing the writing is excellent and Like there is not a single character in that there are characters in the show You're gonna look at and gonna be like I fucking hate that guy But nobody in this version of it nobody comes across as a mustache twirling villain Nice like even even Isshido who gets close Has

clear Rational motivations is not just evil for the sake of being evil right you know And it's it's Yeah Yeah, I cannot I cannot recommend it highly enough. So definitely go check that out. How about you? I'm gonna recommend a book called the Bible told them so how Southern evangelicals fought to preserve white supremacy by J Russell Hawkins But the Bible didn't

Speaking as a fellow theist No, no, I need you But yeah, no, it sounds like a fascinating study it's probably gonna make me incandescently angry but yeah yeah fascinating study so cool all right yeah cool your shadow in the warp where can they find us we collectively can be found on our website at wubba wubba wubba dot geek history time dot com where you will find the archive of all of our episodes all 280. I don't know what by now. And we're in the 300s easy now. You can go through that archive, find a topic that catches your interest, and start wherever you like, bounce around, see how the production values and my ability to not slap the table have gotten better since we started. And we can also of course be found on Spotify, on

the Apple podcast app and on the Amazon podcast app. And wherever it is that you have found us, please do take the time to give us a five star rating and hit the subscribe button to give us that support. We very much appreciate it. How about you? Where can you be found, sir? I am with the crew of Capital Punishment. Let's see, on February 7th, March 7th, and April 4th and May 2nd.

First Friday of each of those months at the Comedy Spot in Sacramento at 9 p.m. You should come by, check it out if you're in the local area if not go online so you can stream it we always love our streaming audience as well and so yeah you should definitely make a trip out to see that it is one of the long it is the longest running contiguous pun tournament show in the world and honestly we've been doing just some kick ass stuff with it so come check it out it's a lot of fun. Very cool. Yeah well

for a Geek History of Time I am Damian Harmony and I'm Ed Blaylock and until next time...