A Geek History of Time - Episode 303 - Shogun Way Back Then, Then, and Now Part VI

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

Item one, hit the grocery store. Item two, laundry. Item three, over through capitalism. You know, for somebody who taught Latin, your inability to pronounce French like hurts. Damn. Look at you getting to the end of my stuff. Mother fucker. But seriously, I do think that this bucolic, luxurious live your weird fucking dreams kind of life is something worth noting. Because of course he had. I got into an argument essentially with

with some folks as to whether or not punching Nazis is something you should do. And they're like, no, then you're just as bad as the Nazis. I was like, the Nazis committed genocide. I'm talking about breaking noses. Drink scotch and eat strychnine. All right. You can't leave that lying there. Luxury poultry. Yes. Yes.

Fancy chickens. Yes. Fancy chicken. Pet pet fancy chickens. Pet fancy chickens. Pet Fancy Chickens? Pet Fancy Chickens. ["Pet Fancy Chickens Theme"] This is a Geek History of Time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. And the biggest thing, one of the brightest spots in my week this week was I just got in the mail a new pair of gauntlets for fencing. I just recently, I think I've

mentioned here that I just recently restarted going to longsword lessons. And I had been for years fencing with a pair of clamshell gauntlets, which are exactly what it says on the tin. They're big plastic clamshell looking things and they're very, very protective, but they're also very clumsy to work with. And there are moves with the long sword cuts and that kind of thing that I just was never able to do because of the nature of those gauntlets. And so getting back into it, I got a financial windfall in that I got a raise and I got some retro pay. And so several hundred dollars of that I put toward buying a pair of actual articulated individual finger gauntlets for fencing.

And I thought they were really zoomy and really cool and they were going to be awesome. And then they got here and they were actually even better in real life than I thought they would be. I put them on and I feel like Darth Vader. Like, like they're black plastic, they're shiny, the lighting is this brilliant crimson red and like I literally feel like it like I could force choke a bitch. Like it's it's amazing. And yeah I know before anybody wants to you know tweet at me or whatever yes I know Vader doesn't wear plate gauntlets I don't care these are amazing and I cannot wait to go to fencing practice this week because holy shit they're just so cool

so anyway that's that's my big thing that's what I'm nerding out about how about you well I'm Damian Harmony I'm a US history teacher up here in Northern California at the high school level. And I kind of am just grinding away doing what I normally do. My kids are downstairs. They know I'm going to go up and record. And so I'm just kind of kicking around for like 10 minutes,

just being weird, dancing, singing songs to tunes that they know, but making different lyrics up on the spot, being like to the point where I will start singing something and I'll just hear my son from the other room go, shut up! And then I just keep going and he keeps yelling it so that I can get the lyrics out, it's so cool. And then I turn to you know, keep going and he keeps yelling it so that it's so cool Um, and then I turned to my daughter and she looks at me. She's like I really want you to go upstairs and record now

So I'm living my best life. I guess I don't know. I I love so much that that your son's response is totally like in range for like what you'd expect from somebody his age. Yes. And your daughter's response is so much a parent talking to a kid. I really need you to go in your other room right now. Yeah.

So I need you to go lie down. Yeah. So it's nice. It's nice. Ah. Yeah. That's great dad vibe right there. Oh my god.

I absolutely love it. I just, you know... You're killing it, man. You're killing it. I gotta get back up on stage and do like dad core jokes. Like not even like with puns. Just tell stories about what an asshole I am to my kids Yeah, and how much they secretly love it. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah, and they'll never admit it, of course, but yeah

No, that's brilliant. And I just kind of held his gaze until he starts laughing and he even said trying really hard not to laugh And you just give him that look the the the meme of Jackolson from anger management just grinning madly and nodding. Uh-huh. Yeah, I know. Yep, yep. Yeah, do it. So. Yeah.

Perfect. Alright, so last time we finished off by talking about lady... Lady in red? No. Um. Hahaha. What was her name? Lady Josso Cala Gracia. Yes. The real life inspiration for Lady Mariko.

Yes. In Shogun, yes. Yes, and how she likely did not commit seppuku. Yes. Because, because she didn't. And but at the same time, Honor demanded that she die and so he ordered One of his agents to do it. Yeah, her husband basically told his retainers within within the mansion the service the household servants

Was more than household servants his his retainers one of his one of his samurai who was there He said, you know if it comes to it you you need to do it because she won't because loopy Christian So like right because she had converted yes. Yes Constantine's wife exactly basically Only kind of reversed, but yeah And so yeah, that's that's okay. That's where we left off So I believe what I had said at the end of the episode was that I was prepared to talk about a comparison of the two series and then what brings us into the modern era with it. And the two series are different in a number of ways

There are a lot of details that kind of carry over between the two But I would hope so you well yes The thing is if one of them certainly pulls out like a vibro sword yeah, that would call foul Yeah, you know yeah, you know it's funny I was actually having a conversation with with another parent earlier today while while my son was playing with one of his friends and you know talking about historical accuracy as a thing like when when I went to see a night's tale mm-hmm I sat down in the theater and in the first 10 seconds all the peasants

Were starting to sing we will rock you. Yeah, and you see the king like even thumping. Yeah, even kind of Local noble kind of something along and you see like there's even like the gal next to him the lady waiting She's kind of doing the hip kind of shimmy. Yeah. Yeah, and and the thing is like Friends of mine who are not history people who know I am history teacher sure Expected me to be like, oh my god, that movie is so bad And I said no no you need to understand that was a brilliant move because for somebody like me they started doing that and I Immediately went oh

Okay. yeah, I Can I can throw all of that I could crumple all of my concern about historical detail up into like a tinfoil ball and fling It away, and I don't need to worry about it now And and I loved I loved it like oh Well and just a brilliance of the fact that they're playing Queen. Yeah, I mean Yeah on a pun level. It. I mean, it's... Yeah, on a pun level, it's like you don't get any better than that. Right.

Yeah. Whereas the opposite effect of that is in Gladiator, Ridley Scott wants this really serious historical epic. And he's got all the grime on everybody. And it's not Mud played for laughs, like, Oh, there was a King went by. How do you know he wasn't covered in shit? You know, it's not, it's not satire is like, no, it's grimy and it's dirty and it's real on whatever. And like in the first 30 seconds of that movie, I was already like, okay,

you fucked up because he has Roman legionaries using longbows. Well, and- In a massed formation and catapults and like- And using a ditch with pitch, a pitch ditch, if you will. Yeah, yes. And they're using it to light fires. Yes. I actually, okay, so I love that movie.

I enjoy it quite a bit. It's, the costuming is is, there's nothing about it that's within that time, but that being said, what do you call that, the director's commentary on the DVD, you hear his full hubris in action, and I think that's worthwhile, because he says, well, were you there? Like, cause he points out that somebody told him that they wouldn't have lit their

arrows there that way. He said, well, were you there? As though that was a win. And it's just like, okay, okay. Yeah. You direct movies. You are not an historian and that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's, there's Yeah, and there's... That one I'm just like, okay, this one's a fairy. They're both fairy tales. Okay, fine. But it pissed me off. Where is it? A knight's tale? I was like, no, this is... Because you saw them stick their tongue into their cheek. Yeah

Okay, tongue cheek, and then they hit play on the animation Yeah, and there you go and yeah, so no there's there's nothing. There's no problems like that between between the two miniseries, but What what is different? Between them would have been cool though if like the Englishmen that you're following was just kind of humming I think I'm turning Japanese See I would pay I would pay money I would just like have and just have it be that little scene where he's a You know

Yeah, like yeah, my kids and I we watch this this TV series called Mysteries of Aravos. Okay. And the person who does the voice for like our main character is the same guy that does the voice for Sokka from Avatar, the last Airbender. Okay, yeah, yeah. And recently he sees these weapons, he's like, oh a boomerang that looks interesting and All of us got it You know, it would be like along those and it's just a real quick

Like it is a tiny moment of one episode in a multi season thing So I would love him to be like walking up to a door just kind of humming that jaunty tune and then the action starts Or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So but the the 1979 1980 mini series was condensed. And so they're there for for consumption by an American audience, uh-huh, there were changes in emphasis and there were Some sequences out of the novel that were that were left out Uh, and and what wound up happening narratively? Was that it's very much John Blackthorn's story, which is true in the novel as well, but the novel is very much a historical novel of Japan.

And Blackthorn is our viewpoint character. And to an extent he's our protagonist, but so are Torinaga and Mariko and the other Japanese characters. It's a more ensemble piece, as one way of kind of describing it. Okay, sure. And the 1980 mini-series very much made it Blackthorn's story, it was condensed. There was a lot more focus on Blackthorn's scenes and there were a lot fewer scenes of the Japanese characters interacting with each other without Blackthorn around.

Okay. And this was because, well, you know, we're making this as a mini series for, you know, American television. And when it got turned into a theater release film, cinematic release film for the Japanese audience, this was a disaster. It was Japanese audiences just absolutely panned it because for them, of course in Japan, uh, films about this time period and about the Edo period immediately after it are a huge part of their popular culture and have been for forever. Right. Their version of Westerns. Yes, very much. That was, that's yeah. And,

and so, uh, what for American audiences was this you know new exotic you know kind of kind of genre to be introduced to for them is a gold hat you know the thing that the thing that was new was hey we're gonna we're gonna introduce you know this this Gaijin character or these Gaijin multiple Gaijin characters which you know you see in period pieces when they're important, but to a Japanese audience, they're much less crucial to the story, obviously. And so that emphasis was off-putting and it got panned, it did very poorly commercially in Japan and kind of disappeared. pudding and you know it got it got panned it did very poorly commercially

in Japan and kind of disappeared and so the new series had had a couple of things that they could do because of the nature of what they were doing so the the 7980 mini series was like six hours six or seven hours total over three nights over three nights, okay, and the new series is nine hours long it's it's nine nine or ten episodes and And it's a complete series or is it's a season two we so That depends on who you ask the the actor playing Lord Toran Aga on

In more than one interview has said no. I'd really like to Tell the rest of this story. Oh Okay, of of you know Toran Aga Tokugawa, and what happens after the end of season one, which I'm going to get to later. But the producers and the writers and everybody who said, no, this is Clavel's novel. We adapted Clavel's novels. There isn't a sequel to Clavel's novel. So, you know, so like there's backing and forthing

about how likely we are. I want there to be another season just because everybody who acted in this one was just so fucking good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That like, you know, and of course, like anybody who's listened to our podcast knows, oh, hey, it's feudal Japanese media.

Ed's gonna, this is like catnip for Ed, you know. Right, right. Like, yeah, obviously I want a season two. But it really is just that good. But because they had more, because it's Hulu, Netflix, being behind this, they were able to work with a bigger budget and stretch the story out and include more of the not explicitly, hey, here's Blackthorn again in this scene kind of things.

And so we see there's much more of an emphasis on the Japanese story, like the story of Torunaga and Ishido having their clash of wills and politics and Yabu being in the middle and trying to play both sides against the middle and eventually getting caught. Spoilers, he dies in the last episode. Torunaga cuts his head off. Well, he commits seppuku and Torunaga cuts his head off. Well, he commits seppuku and Toronaga cuts his head off anyway. He cuts his head off, yeah. Yeah. Because Toronaga figures out that, you know, he's been a backstabbing asshole the whole time. But also, at the same time, especially when I mentioned Yabu specifically,

what's important to note is, in the original series, there was, there was so much more exotification. Like I said a minute ago that like for American audiences, this was this whole new exotic thing. Sure. And there was a lot of exotification and kind of fetishization of Japanese culture that went on.

And one of the things that happened was in the original mini-series, Lord Yabu is a hideous-like and just an unreconstructed through and through villain. Just sadist and a Just ugly look kids. Here's the bad guy. Yeah. Yeah and and he essentially stands in for all of the All of the all of what what to Westerners would be the barbaric and ugly aspect of feudal Japanese culture, right? Basically, right the reason they needed a strong leader to come in Kind of yeah, yeah, and

So in in the new series Yabu does all of the same things uh-huh notably in in one of the earliest episodes as a, as a punishment or the insolence that, uh, the, the Englishmen show when they're, when they're rescued and they're, you know, shouting and swearing at everybody and they don't show proper deference to, to the samurai that, that are there. Uh, Yabu orders that one of them be executed by being boiled alive. Which head first or feet first, because one's more cruel than the other feet feet first and and he's restrained and he's restrained in the cauldron

as the fire is built underneath him. Oh, dear. Yeah, it's yeah. And the thing is, in the original series, it's yeah, and the thing is um in the original series it's Portrayed as this like thing that he gets off on listening to the screams In the newer series so they romanized him yes, they did yes Bring in the brass bull yeah Yeah, my nipple clamps. Yeah.

And the feathers. Yeah. Oh, you went full Nero. Okay. Never go full Nero. It's just, even if you're Nero, don't go full Nero. Yeah. That was what brought Nero down.

But. Yeah, sure. That's what brought him down. That's what did. Okay. Yeah. Not a member of his own Praetorian Guard. No. Not the whole structure that they had put in place. No. No. No. No. So, um, in, in the book and in the newer series, I mean, it's still hideous and awful, but Yabu isn't just a, you know, hideous, semi-mindless kind of sadist. He, he has this, this obsession with the moment of death and listening for how this person in this situation

is going to face that moment of extinction. And so that's what he's so that's that's what he's Listening for that's what he's looking for and I mean it's still monstrous It was sadist, but now he's an intellectual sadist. He's an intellectual sadist and in the newer series. There's there's a sequence That is included that was shortened or left out in the original series, where we see that Yabu is awful, but he has the virtues that would be himself in mortal danger. And when Blackthorn rescues him, there is a moment of genuine recognition and respect between them because they recognize each other's

courage. And he is a more rounded character and we see him better within the context of his position he's not just a Backstabbing asshole. He is an ambitious man anytime when looking out for one's own interests was Kind of what you had to do, right? It was the coin of the realm. Yeah, and You know he contrasts with the other retainers of Torinaga who are dedicated to Torinaga and who are loyal to Torinaga, but he's not villainized for that to the same

extent. He pays for it in the end. Like I said, he winds up, you know, committing seppuku. But he's not, he's not a mustache twirling villain for it. Ishido is kind of the closest thing we have in the new series to a mustache twirling villain. And he is even he's not just entirely a snidely whiplash. You know, it's, it's he, he sees that this is his opportunity to, you know, gain what Toranaga has effectively. And, and you know, he's, he's playing the game.

He's, he's, you know, we're going to go for it. And you know, Toranaga is the underdog at the beginning of the series, but he's, and he is still portrayed right up until like the last episode. There's a wonderful moment at the end, and I don't want to spoil it where he goes from being the, I am, I am just carrying on the policy of the Taiko and I'm protecting the Taiko's air. And we need to survive and we need stability, yada yada. And then without giving too much away, there's a moment where we see Tokugawa in him and, no, I'm going to be the Shogun.

Right. You know, at kind of at the last minute, we get that realization and it's incredibly acted and it's a wonderful moment. And we get it more clearly and more, more it hits better, I think in the new series, because we haven't spent the whole time following, uh, Blackthorn around. We've seen all of the interactions and all of the relationships between all of the other characters in a much

more rounded way. And in a way that, you know, it's still feudal Japan and it's still kind of a head trip for a modern American to try to, you know, navigate those social circumstances, you know, and the mores and the norms of that culture, but we recognize better. I think that those are cultural norms and it's not fetishized nearly as much. Um, make sense given how we've shifted. Yeah. Like, I mean, you know, in the late, and if, if I'm stepping on your, your toes here, let me know. But in the late and if I'm stepping on your your toes here, let me know but in the late 1970s we'd gone through the

the the movements toward America starting to look to the Pacific as a threat again Economically and then the 80s that shit really kicked in But like in the 70s there were still the there were those rumblings already yeah, so in order to not make it so like to get this interesting idea across like I could just see the Network execs and the directors going like man. We're really showing a nuanced version of Japan With the first Shogun.

Yeah. And for that time it likely was in American. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and the way that they, that they crafted it as a collaboration between American and Japanese studios, you know, I mean, it was was it was an effort at the time definitely but I think Popular culture in the United States then you know the the idea that you would have a protagonist that was not a

straight white guy, right you know was was The the default was unthinkingly the default. And now here in 2024, we've, we have entered into an era. Yeah, you have sensitivity writers, like you have editors who look for that specific thing. There's intimacy coaches. There's all, and intimacy coaches aren't just for sex scenes, it's for all kinds of things, and there's so much more attention given toward telling a more robust story,

but also doing so in a way that is, and I'm, you know, it's cynical of them on many levels, they don't want the smoke, but at the same time, you know, they are producing art that is more sensitive and representative of the cultures that they're depicting. I mean, I just think about the movie Prey and also the TV series Echo. Both were done with a good deal of input From the tribes that were being depicted echo certainly the Choctaw nation

was consulted quite a bit on them and I believe in prey I Don't want to say it was Comanche, but But I might have been but there was no horses. I don't I don't remember I will look that up I have to look it up, but yeah, but anyway they were consulted and they were You know they were acknowledged. Yeah, so yeah, so it would make sense that yeah this time around They're you know way different about it. Yeah and so the the overall story, I think, winds up having greater depth and greater emotional

heft because it's not just the John Blackthorne show to nearly the same extent. And of course, with the actors they have in the cast, yeah, I know I keep, I keep going on about how well performed the whole thing is, but it's, it's, um, the, yeah, the depth and the, and the genuine humanity of all of the characters involved is much more on display. Yeah. And, you know, and, and so, yeah, it just, it just, it winds up in that way. It winds up being a much more well-rounded story. And there's one scene in the new series that is left out that I think is also really important kind of for the reasons that

you just mentioned. In the novel and in the original mini series, there is a point at which Blackthorn, he's been made a hatamoto by Torunaga, which is like samurai rank, even though he's not a samurai. He's been given rank as a householder of Torunaga's clan, and he's been given a stipend and all of that and Torunaga makes a decision basically makes a decree and Blackthorn Threatened seppuku And is about to commit seppuku. Oh wow, okay, which which for those of

folks in the audience not not which for those of folks in the audience, not, not, uh, familiar with this particular wrinkle of that. So seppuku was not only something that would happen when your Lord said, you have embarrassed me, you have shamed me, you know, I think you betrayed me, whatever, or when you were defeated in battle. Seppuku was something that retainers would do as a symbol of protest. I am, I am loyal to you. I am dedicated to you. And because I want the best for you as my liege lord, I am not going to follow your order

because it's going to be counter to your interest or it's it's it's a bad call whatever and So I cannot disobey you But I cannot obey you it's and so my protest resigning in protest, but you but extreme like yes But Japanese so like a thousand percent commitment right right? And and so that's that's what this is. And, you know, it's a moment where we, as the reader, or the viewer in the case of the original mini series, kind of see that, okay, Blackthorn has figured out the culture.

Mm-hmm. Like this is the moment where we're like, okay, Blackthorn has, he hasn't gone native, but he now he understands what the stakes are and who it is he's dealing with. Right. And in, in this series, the writers and the producers looked at it and they went, we don't based on some of the other, some of the other choices we've made in ways that this story is flowing.

That's not earned. And that's, that's a very sensitive thing. And in, cause just like originally the new mini series is also available in Japan. And they were like to a Japanese audience, this isn't, the word that comes to mind is sensitive, but this is going to come across as kind of a cheap shot or this, because this is not sufficiently earned, this isn't that that We think needs to be in this story and And so they eliminated they you know altered that part of the narrative mm-hmm Do you well real quick? Do you think that?

That alteration is also do so just making sure that I get this yeah in the original he threatens and this one he does not correct Do you think that there is some sensitivity given toward the idea that? Kind of like you know they want to avoid comparisons to Kevin Costner speaking only in sue after a while You know that kind of thing yeah, I don't want to say you went full native, but like I mean that is kind of the trope That's well. Yeah with him going seppuku Yeah Yeah, well there's there's there's that I think I think a better comparison would be to you know Tom Cruise You know best thing here. You keep Sonata with a with a wooden sword within

Within three moves like you know after six months of training After six months of training, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's on it's on that same kind of level Oh, it's it's yeah, we don't we don't want like in the novel It's really clear that it's not a mighty whitey moment, right? Right in the original miniseries. It's Yeah, so clear that it's not a mighty, mighty moment. And they were looking at that like, you know, we, we don't have the advantage of, of the written page, you know, make to make all of the, all of the mental math.

Sure. Clear here. So let's just not do that. Sure. Yeah. And, um, I think the way in this series that that gets resolved also leaves a little bit more room for Blackthorn to spend a little bit of time being spend a little bit of time being, um, being a pawn, you know, in, in a way that, um, kind of empowers the Japanese characters in the story a little bit more, you know, because this is ultimately their story, not really his,

if that makes sense. Yeah. And you know, so, um, just in general, the, um, the pacing of the newer series is more, I don't want to say leisurely, but it's, it's, it, it it it progresses at a more Realistic kind of pace everything in the first miniseries is jammed together And you don't really get the sense of the amount of time passing that actually passes Over the course of the story where you do in the newer miniseries Okay, newer series. It's a limited series Feel like it's all over one weekend. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, um, and so it's, it's, yeah, it, there, there is the, the change in the medium because, you know, originally it was, it was broadcast and not, not bingeable. You know, um, I think made it easier in many ways for them to be truer to the book and more respectful or more mindful perhaps of the cultural context and the actual history behind the story. And so as much as I absolutely love aspects of the original mini series, series. Sure. You know, John Rice Davies, for example, plays the Spanish pilot Rodriguez in the original series. And of course he's, he's just fun to watch no matter what. And, you know, and so, you know, I, I did their, their aspects of the originals that are great, you know, Chamberlain, the actor who plays Blackthorn in the original series has a couple of really good moments. And of course, Toshiro Mifune as Torinaga doesn't get nearly enough screen time, but

he's great. And there are a couple of awesome bad ass moments with him. But in the newer series, because of the amount of time that they have, more characters get those kind of moments. And you know the the just overall I am a I am a an even bigger fan of the newer series Than of the original miniseries, especially now that I'm you know pushing 50 and I have enough life experience to look at the original series and kind of cringe like oh Yeah, you went there. Oh, okay. Well again, you know

Presentist kind of things though like a little bit. Yeah, or it's time Versus now now we can look back and judge the times Yes, you know and I'm down for that but separating it out from its time seems Yeah, you know like a little unfair that being, like you would hope that the new series would reflect the culture of its time now. Yeah, and it does. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Which which segues very neatly into the other kind of principle question

that we because it's what we do here, we kind of have to look at is so why why, why did this series get revisited in 2023, you know, after over 40 years from, from the original mini series? And so, because, you know, we've mentioned Shogun as a background thing in episodes we've talked about, about the late 1970s, the early eighties and, you know, we've mentioned Shogun as a background thing in episodes we've talked about about the late 1970s, the early eighties and you know, the interaction between American and Japanese culture. And, you know, of course, like you already brought up, you know, at that time we had this weird, um, love, hate, fear, obsessive fetishization kind of thing going on with

Japan because we had defeated them in World War II and then for decades afterward, everything cheap was made in Japan. And then suddenly in the 1970s, they started selling more cars than we did. Right. And like, wait, what the fuck? Right. And that what the fuck moment turned into all of a sudden

in science fiction series after science fiction series after any kind of allegorical anything, science fiction series after science fiction series after You know Any kind of allegorical anything you started seeing bad guys showing up looking Japanese Yeah, the Empire the Yakuza became a mainstay in Contemporary 80s movies as far as guys go Yes, and we in the 90s. Yeah. And we had a glut of ninja movies. Yep. Here in the states, which which way way a lot of them, you know, focused heavily

on mighty whitey. You know, we have, you know, an American guy or an Englishman who's like, you know, a better ninja than the Japanese are, which is its own thing. And the whole exotification and all of the tropes associated with the ninja as a metaphor for how we viewed the Japanese as sneaky and very, very highly skilled, but they don't face you head on, you know, and at the same time you have the guards and warriors of the Draco empire on Buck Rogers wearing samurai styled helmets and sci-fi looking clearly Japanese inspired armor. You know, um, and don't forget Darth Vader yes yes helmet Darth Vader's helmet

is a Kabuto yes there's like that's that's it and so you know there's there's that kind of weird obsession going on in 79 into 80 and Shogun is the call it the Hollywood. Hey, let's, let's, let's bring some, bring some nuance, you know, expose people to what, what the history is of this, you know, with this historical novel kind of thing. Right. And so that's, that's kind of where that was rooted at that time. Well, now we're in the 2020s and Japan hasn't really been in our headlines for 30 years. You know, you, you, you, news stories about Japan are below the fold on the front page because, you know, they're, they're one one of our they're our biggest trading partner. They're a strategic partner in the Pacific, you know, but like that's boring

You know, yeah well in the fires that were stoked in the 80s the anti-japanese fires that were stoked in the 80s led to murder Yeah, like it led to them and they couldn't even racism right right they The fuckers who killed the young man in Detroit. I want to say he was Chinese Yeah, like it but it was because of an anti-japan Japanese sentiment like yeah, so I think that like once that had happened like we kind of seen the nadir of that kind of thinking. Yeah. And probably, I'm thinking, I don't know, this is just me theorizing, American auto manufacturer had kind of figured its shit out

and adapted to Toyota and Nissan and Datsun, well Datsun became Nissan. Became Nissan, yeah. But to those like sales models so you know the sedan was no longer a land yacht and so now there was more competition that was able yeah you know yeah and then yeah you're right Japan kind of fell off in terms of and in many ways it fell off because the cold war was over yeah that's a big part of it. Um, also it's worth noting that, you know,

you and I and our generation was the first generation that got exposed as we talked about in other episodes to do anime. Right. And in, in a very meaningful way in the ensuing 30 years, there were a lot of aspects of Japanese popular culture that became parts of maybe not totally mainstream US popular culture, but widely, widely consumed. Right.

US popular culture. And, you know, there are people who, you know, use weeb as a pejorative, talking about anime fans, and there are negative stereotypes of people who still have that fetishization obsession with Japanese culture and all that kind of stuff. But there's a much bigger audience. I have students of mine who too. All the time. And you know, I've actually, I have a copy, you know, right here. There's manga that I'm collecting specifically for the library in my classroom. For, you know, okay, if you're done with your work

early, you can, you know, grab a book off my shelf and read. Right. And I've got manga on that shelf because kids read it. Yeah, you know and and there's there's been a normalization and a mainstreaming it's like a better word of Like our relationship with Japanese culture. Yeah, like I don't think very many Americans really have a Genuinely nuanced understanding of Japanese culture, but like it's not, it's not, it's not demonized and it's not as alien as, as it was. Right. So I'm like, okay, all right. But that, that doesn't explain why we'd have this mini series. Well,

the other thing that you have to take into account is historically speaking here in the United States, our relationship to Japan Has seesawed At least at least our relationship in our own heads as a culture to Japan has seesawed with our relationship to China and When we have been friendly with Japan like say prior to World War two

At the time of the Russo Japanese war We were very favorable with Japan We looked on Japan as being the guys in the east that were modernizing rapidly and look look how they stood up to the russians and did all this stuff and Like yay, Japan broad brush. You're right. You have the gentleman's agreement gentle woman's agreement But yeah, but just underneath that there was a tremendous amount of Japan's Ambassadors going what the fuck are you doing? Like not at all. You don't get to ban our people from your schools fuck. Oh, yeah. No the racism

Yeah, I'm not I'm not saying there wasn't racism Right. I'm talking about our perception of our attitude Okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah They were they were the civilized Asians. Yes Meanwhile, yes at that time the Chinese were backward and they were barbaric

That time the Chinese were backward and they were barbaric the barbaric Yeah in California here we have a large Like we like any any historian worth their salt who teaches at a secondary level. Yeah We will reckon with the anti Chinese and the anti Japanese sentiment and the nuances between the two Yes, and the and the intensity like when when anti-Chinese racism was at its most heightened anti-Japanese sentiment tended to be less. Yes. And vice versa. Yes. When when the Japanese were the enemy the Chinese were suddenly, hey you know they're the they're the friendly age they're the ones we want to help out. Right. We literally canceled the Anti-Exclusion Act in 43 because we're at war with Japan.

Yes. Yeah. So so the question is, so, OK, Ed, if that's the case, then what was going on with China during this time period? And I'm so glad you asked Yeah because by 2023 so so in 1979 1980 Our relationship with China was

We kind of almost didn't have one. Yeah, Nixon had opened up a little Yeah, yeah, we had been very anti very very anti China for yeah since the Korean War and Nixon had kind of opened opened up relations with China and You know China was this gigantic Nation with a whole lot of people but not a whole lot of people, but not a whole lot of, you know, not a whole lot of pull. Right.

Like a better word, because, you know, they were, they were struggling to try to catch up still aren't a lot of heads of economy. Yeah. You know, they had, I don't have notes here in front of me about, you know, when the great leap forward had been, but you you know that it was within a generation of the Great Leap Forward and you know the massive famines and starvation everything that happened because of that they Were they were struggling to kind of get their shit together to paint with a very broad brush And so we didn't we didn't really perceive like our popular culture didn't really perceive the Chinese, right? Okay. Yeah

They weren't like like I was talking about, you know with with the Japanese nowadays in our in newspapers media Headlines about Japan are always below the fold, right? It was it was the same way then with China We I think and this is me speaking from my experiences as a Gen X er my the first time I really thought really hard about China at all was when I was in the ninth grade and in June ten Tiananmen Square happened. And that was this moment of, oh, you know, the youth of China are, you know, standing up, they're calling for democracy and yay, and all of that. And that ended the way that ended. And then,

you know, we collectively, I think, as a culture, let China kind of fall back off of our radar. But then slowly over the decades, decade and a half or so, China adopted policies of, you know what, we deserve to be a world power. We have been one before and we will be one again. And as they started to pursue that, we collectively started to get more and more worried about it. On an economic level, right now in the 2020s, China has replaced Japan as the economic antagonist in our collective consciousness.

And that's because labor is much cheaper in China than it is here. And the Chinese government pursues policies that are aggressive about creating an export-based economy. And they're going to make that export-based economy create growth for them if they have to kill everybody to do it, to oversimplify. And so they have, they have become the second largest economy in the world, still behind us, but gaining. And they have then used that economic growth to also make themselves into a or to try to work toward becoming a near peer militarily with us the United States So in

2013 they began So in 2013 they began Sending it. No, I was saying in 2013. Uh-huh. Yeah in 2013 they began the Belt and Road initiative and This is hundreds of billions of dollars that they've spent in the developing world Giving out loans and just spending money themselves on building infrastructure in third world countries in Africa, in South Asia, in a lot of it in Africa, in order to basically create trading relationships and to grease the wheels of trading relationships with developing nations where they're getting raw materials from. In order to more efficiently fuel their own industry and to create, uh, you know,

relationships to essentially put other, other nations in the position of seeing them as benefactors, uh, to be more cynical about it, to put these developing nations in their debt, you know, um, in, in order to, you know, expand their influence in this way. Right. Which was the hue and cry of basically the G7 that they were doing all that. And it's like, number one, you're projecting.

Number two, probably. Number three, someone else should get a shot because you have underdeveloped Africa for 200 years. And you're stealing all their shit. Including their light bulbs. Hi Belgium, how you doing? Yeah. I remember our episode about the Smurfs. I'm not gonna forget that shit. By the way, somebody pointed out to me that if you watch Wakanda with the perspective of the Belgians Yeah, it and and what's what's happening in the Congo vis-a-vis?

The the very rare metals that are coming out of there for all the things we need. It's a whole nother The whole nother level like fuck. Oh, wow. Yeah, but anyway, um, but like the World Bank Literally put other nations in debt Yeah to the g7 forever. So, you know, it's one of the it's I always love confession by accusation, yeah, and you know the The the contrarian in me is like, okay, let's pretend that they are doing that Maybe this time Africa will get something out of it instead of everyone getting something out of Africa Yeah, and and you know, certainly there there are plenty of folks from the global south who were like, okay

So it's their turn like right? Fuck you, right? Um, and and you know, that's that's legitimate point of view and it's like well You you just don't like them doing it because they're they're China. They're getting the scoop. No. Yeah, they're not You know one one and two, you know There they're not part of your you know, northern European nations club. So yeah, yeah You know and that's again, um, perfectly valid interpretation of it, but certainly within our

zeitgeist here in the United States, you know, it's, it's an Oh shit yellow peril kind of thing. Right. You know, and China has used, um, a lot of their, their newly built, historically speaking, newly built wealth in working on trying to become a near peer to us here in the United States and militarily specifically. And so they've done a number of things that lots of American and British and Northern European NATO type military analysts have shouted a lot about. They've been building military bases in the South China Sea and claiming greater and greater

territory there, claiming these are Chinese territorial waters. When international agreements clearly state, no, they're not. These are international waters. They're not Chinese territory. And there have been instances of warships from China and name some other country, United States, Australia, Great Britain, France, having these very tense encounters where the Chinese are saying, no, no, this is our territory. And the navies of multiple other nations going, no, no, freedom of navigation, fuck off, has become a thing.

And this is part of just kind of generally more aggressive stance globally. Xi Jinping specifically, this has been in large part his baby as leader of the Chinese Communist Party. So there were not only in the South China Sea, but they've also done this in the Indian Ocean. there's just this huge campaign of construction, often hiring Indian and other South Asian workers to do these projects, which is just an interesting wrinkle because again, it's another kind of like them throwing money in the direction of other parts of Asia as a way of, of, you know, increasing their influence and, and, you know, doing this. And as of 2024,

they have two aircraft carriers active. Right. They have a third one undergoing sea trials and a fourth nuclear powered one possibly under construction. Possibly. We don't we don't know for sure but we know there's been planning and stuff has been And what's important about that is aircraft carriers are, and even we, as the ones who do this, acknowledge that we have aircraft carriers as a force projection mechanism. An aircraft carrier for the United States, an aircraft carrier is a way to get a military force of third or fourth generation aircraft, fighters, jets, into striking range

of another country anywhere in the world. and for us to have enough aircraft there to overwhelm 75 or 80% of the world's air forces, I'm not going to go so far as to say 90, I'm probably underestimating, but I don't want to sound like, you know, Mr, you know, rah rah America swinging Dick guy. But we do have enough firepower on a Nimitz class aircraft carrier supercarrier to flatten a Country yeah to in 24 hours. Yeah, and we've got 11 of those things Well, they're not all class. They're 12. We have 12 of them. That's actually more than you were saying. Yeah. And a significantly larger fleet to support them. So every one

of our carriers, or maybe every two of our carriers has a whole strike group of cruisers and missile frigates and destroyers. And I'm just going to take a moment here as a military science nerd and a Navy kid. What we call a destroyer nowadays isn't actually a destroyer. What we call a destroyer nowadays is no shit, a cruiser. We don't have destroyers anymore. In World War II, a destroyer was a lightweight boat that was designed for patrol and anti-submarine stuff.

A cruiser was a larger ship that could cruise independently on its own. Because they had enough firepower to defend itself. Yeah, it had enough firepower and it had carried enough supplies and had a large enough crew and all of that. Nowadays we don't have anything smaller than what in World War II we would have called a cruiser. So like nowadays, the nomenclature is just completely fucked now. But anyway, that's a rant for another time. And anyway, the point just proves that we are still hugely ahead of even our nearest peer worldwide in terms of the amount of like blow shit up that we can deploy anywhere. Um, because, because we're still mentally, we, we, we have

not gotten over the cold war is, is my explanation for it. We still have self-inflicted PTSD from our demonization of our opponents in the Cold War and building them up in our own heads. And so, you know, we can do that still. So anyway, back to talking about China. The Chinese have actually built their own fighter, the J-15, that is designed to be carrier capable. So they're not, they're not for a very long time, up until very recently, the Chinese were buying most of their aircraft or getting licenses to construct their aircraft from the Russians.

Now in the last couple of decades, they have brought all of that in-house and they have been building their own stuff. And so they have developed this fighter that is designed to be carrier capable. And again, military analysts, both working in the Pentagon and civilians who are analysts of this stuff have been hollering with their hair on fire for a decade about, oh my God, the Chinese, the Chinese are catching up to us. Right. And that has, that has bled over into our popular perception of them. Um, and, and so because we see them that way, now we're in this position to have this drama about Japan who are now who are No kidding actually our major strategic allies, right?

You know and and who now we see as our buddies, you know Against who we perceive to be a growing threat in China Yes, not just economically but also militarily because otherwise why would you talk all about these carriers? Yes. Yeah. And China's posturing more and more regarding Taiwan. Yes, and has been for a while. And so like in our presidential politics, it's become a thing.

Under the first Trump administration, one of his biggest bugaboos was talking about getting tough on China. Because he doesn't understand macroeconomics, he made a big deal about imposing tariffs on the Chinese as a way to punish the Chinese right and You know his electoral base just ate that up and then were surprised when they couldn't sell their soybeans anymore and And then needed Subsidies and help yeah, then they were grateful for that because now he saved us from Yeah, yeah, he saved you from his own fucking policies but yeah anyway

and and you know and the thing is that same kind of attitude even though the the tariffs as such went away under the biden administration the same um you know we got to build a coalition in the pacific you know we got to be cooperating with Australia and all these other folks and trying to reach out even though, you know India's we don't really like India's government, but we got to try to reach out to them because We need them as a strategic partner against China, you know, and they've also historically been neutral on most things They're like the largest Switzerland that there is yes you know yes and and now there's like yeah much deeper issues there yeah yeah yeah and so because of this perception and you know I mean a part of it as you say China has been getting more aggressive about Taiwan yeah we have a commitment

to protect Taiwan that dates back to the beginning of the Cold War. And because of the fact that there are legitimate things we can point to that the Chinese government is doing to minorities within their own country, the Uyghurs and other groups, all of this kind of stuff. There is this perception of China, there is a new yellow peril, would be like the shorthand way of saying it. And that has led to some ugliness in our country against Asian Americans, especially Chinese Americans. And because of this fear in the zeitgeist, now that is bringing Shogun into our homes as an image of our allies So as opposed to sympathetic human yes look out of them during yes sure yes

And so I mean that's that's my That's my take and that's my theory on the whole thing. Yeah. And I think there's certainly a lot more that could probably be taken out of it. But in the end, we have this media being created that I think is a fascinating reflection when we look at it through that lens, it's a fascinating reflection of us, you know, and our changing obsessions as time goes on, you know, and our simultaneous willingness to, as a dominant culture here in the United States, the interesting dichotomy of our willingness to give more representation to voices that we haven't heard from before.

But part of what's motivating that is our subconscious anxiety. And need to have a, oh God, I don't even wanna call it a binary, but like a toggle switch as to yeah Who we like and who we don't yeah between those two countries specifically Yeah, it's a weird because you didn't see your twist. Yeah, you didn't see pro Chinese or pro Japanese stuff During the Vietnam War, you know or afterwards right like and there was no like well, okay It's either Vietnam or Thailand like you didn't see that. No, you know, or afterwards, right? Like, so, and there was no like, well, okay, it's either Vietnam or Thailand. Like you didn't see that. No, no,

there, there is this very strange and, and, you know, I think, I think the, the, the reason I'm going to theorize here, and this is, this is going completely off, off the rails. My notes don't even, don't even talk about this, but the way you're the way you just framed that I think the reason we have this weird Binary for lack of a better term about you know, China versus Japan in our culture here in the United States is because of The Boxer Rebellion and Perry So so, you know we we had you know, we had people in

Beijing during the Boxer Rebellion and our our first meaningful contact with Japan was when we, we showed up with a gunboat and, and, and kind of forcefully, uh, uh, ripped them out of their feudal era into modernity. Right. And, and their response was so like, you know, the Chinese had the boxer rebellion, which was a resurgence of their own culture and their own traditions. The Japanese responded by going, okay, no, we're going to kick the Shogun out or reinstalling the emperor. But while we reinstall the emperor, we're going to adopt a parliamentary system of government.

We're going to send everybody we can out into Europe and the United States and every place else we're going to learn how these, how these round eyes are doing all this stuff and we're going to bring it all back and we're going to, we're going to modernize because we saw what they did to China and we're not going to let it happen to us. Yeah, and so There that that difference in their responses to us Not just us the Boxer Rebellion was against a whole bunch of things. Yeah, but but for us as Americans It's you know, we're we're part of that coalition of colonial, you know powers

We're part of that coalition of colonial, you know powers Their their differences in the way they responded to European and American Empire I think created in our popular consciousness a a a Flip-flop and in verse relationship. Yeah. Yeah an inverse relationship Yeah, no, I could see that. I mean Japan also had the charm of being isolated Yeah, and so their reaction was singular whereas the Boxer Rebellion comes

Like 30 years after the Taiping rebellion had ended. That's true You know, I mean you have just and and that came like the Taiping rebellion had ended. That's true. You know, I mean, you have just, and that came, like the Taiping rebellion comes like, shortly after they lose the second opium war against the English, like they're just been beating after beating after beating. Yeah, they've been pummeled repeatedly. The second man of Asia, you know?

Yeah. So, I think you have Japan having stayed so isolated for so long, because everybody was focused on extracting from China that when they did come out, and again, I'm not saying they didn't look to China and go, okay, that's not good for us. We're going to do something different. Yes, but there was only the one response that we saw, like that American saw, you know? And then immediately you start seeing, you know, like I think by 1869, you had the first Chinese,

or no, the first Japanese expats coming to America. Yeah. And, you know, they're very, very small numbers, you know? But like, you know, you're seeing that and they, like you said, they immediately start, I mean, there was an American school that was set up in Tokyo. Learn the language, here's how they dress,

I know it's wool, I know it sucks. I don't like how they smell either. But this is what they do, so when you go over there, you probably aren't coming back. And there was also like, you know, they're The the Japanese immigrants who came to the Americas a lot of them didn't come to America. They came to Hawaii Yeah, it was Chinese immigrants came to both places Yeah, and so I but I think you're right though that there is still that like that that seesaw

I think you're right though that there is still that like that that seesaw Like yeah, where one is up the other must be down and vice versa cuz yeah, you know it was yeah So I I don't I don't disagree I do think it's interesting that like now We're you can almost chart it then The next time that you know, we'll have a pro Chinese TV show Will be if we for some reason get mad at Japan. Yep So yeah, well cuz you know thinking about it kung fu

was on TV in the 70s yeah around about the time that you, the Japanese were suddenly the enemy, right? Right. And as again, it's a product of its time and we have to judge it based on its times. You know. Well, we can judge the times. Yeah. We can absolutely judge the times. Boy, can we yeah, yeah, so Keith Carradine really? David Carradine David Carradine. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, but still my point. Yes a Carradine as As you're you know wandering, you know Chinese monk in the Old West Okay, and and as apparently was supposed to happen. It was supposed to be Bruce Lee And the studio went a different way

So yeah, because they they thought a white actor would be easier for audiences to Identify with to see his Chinese. Yeah Apparently, yeah So yeah, I mean it's not like it was well, you know, Bruce Lee refused to shave his head It wasn't it wasn't like right It was yeah. So anyway racism. Hi You know, it's okay for him to be on TV as the sidekick but as right do we really want to do that, you know, right You know and and and

He might not have died when he did If if he had that role if he was if he was filming Oh just in terms of what he had access to medicinally well Yeah, I mean what what the theory about what it is that killed him was you know taking somebody else's medication. You know right? Anyway, yeah, that's that's again kind, kind of a rant for another time, but yeah. So it's, it's this, it's this weird part of our culture where we, we kind of can't view either of those cultures on their own. There's always this part of our view where the one is being compared to the other, right? That we don't like,

we don't do this with the French and the Germans. We don't do this with, you know, the Russians and the Dutch. I mean, it's like, you know, we do it with the English no matter what. That's always the bad guy, but yeah, I mean we do with the English no matter what that's always the bad guy, but Yeah, I mean For fuck's sake who do you have a rebellion against? I mean, come on. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm with you But you're absolutely right like we don't You know, we don't even do it with like the Ottomans and the Armenians like no see us like how many Americans know about That you know, just the Armenian ones really it well. Yes

sadly But we really don't we don't do that with you know Senegalese and and Malawians, you know, we don't know Yeah Part of that is just Americans don't know enough geography to do that with anybody else. I tried so help me God I fucking tried. I know I know I'm not blaming you at all but you know I'm just saying. So yeah that's that's that's what I have.

I like it. On Shogun and I do however want to finish off by talking about what actually wound up then happening in history. So the series, both mini series and prior to a real resolution of events. So, in 1600, one of the other regents, Uesugi Katsugu, is the one who actually kicked off the final confrontation between Tokugawa and Ishida. And this guy, Uesugi, was one of the Western nobles. Remember the West was Mitsunari, the East was Ieyasu. And this guy, Uesugi Katsugu, built up his forces in his province in violation of the terms of the regencies.

Something under the agreement, none of them were supposed to be doing this. And he started bringing all his troops together. And Ieyasu condemned him, set out a decrease and knock it off. This is a violation of the rules, ordered him to stop. In one of the wonderful fuck you moments in history, Katsugu responded with a laundry list of Ieyasu's own violations of the terms of the regency. Nice.

Threw him, just totally threw him the finger in a very public letter that went out to everybody and openly defied him. And at that point war was inevitable and pretty much like You you get the sense looking at The chess moves that were going on that this was the point at which the Western forces had figured out. Okay, look Now is our best chance like this. This is the moment where we need to do it So, you know this wasn't like, you know, he got caught slipping or he was like, no, no, we're going to do this. He's going to defy it. And now we're in a position

to throw him the finger and we can win. Unfortunately, you know, it was a calculated risk, but they turned out to be bad at math. And on October 21st, 1600, Ieyasu's forces, the Eastern army or no, yeah. Eastern army met the Western army at Sekigahara. Uh, the fighting was touch and go for much of the day, uh, until the end. Uh, when several Western generals who had been kind of hanging back, who hadn't really fully committed to the battle, switched sides, likely motivated by promises of leniency and reward from EAS, because he also had been talking to everybody. Remember this was his strength.

He, he, he, he had, yeah, he was a net worker and he had worked very hard not to really be enemies with anybody He could he could avoid being enemies with right and so These these couple of generals one of whom is is frequently kind of considered the really pivotal one kind of the kingmaker who we know Ieyasu had been talking to in the months before the battle, like personally, and with whom he had a relationship going back a while. He was kind

of a mentor to this guy, but this guy's loyalties had been on the other side of the fence. but this guy's loyalties had been on the other side of the fence. And so the battle ended in a massive route of the Eastern forces. And this is a theme that comes up over and over again in Edo period dramas. There's frequently things where you have a flashback to Sekigahara and the characters witnessing or being part of this slaughter of the soldiers of the Eastern Army and the survivors scattering to the winds. All of those daimyo being broken, their backs being broken militarily by it. The major ringleaders of the Eastern forces were captured and executed in the days that followed. And Hideyoshi's heir saw his rank reduced. He went from being high ranking, essentially think like he had been a duke. He got reduced essentially to

being like a baron, to use Western kind of terms sure sure most of his lands wound up getting distributed amongst the EAS is faction and So in 1603 at the age of 60 Tokugawa Had the Emperor Proclaim him Shogun And He kept Hideyoshi's heir around for another 10 years.

And then when, when Hideyoshi's heir started looking like he was going to try to maybe maneuver to start some shit, whether the, the, there is a question of whether the whole thing was orchestrated by EASU or if there was actually insult intended by, by Hideo she's there, but there was this back and forth ceremonial issues that happened where I bet my thumb at you sir, do you bite yourself? Yeah, and you know, for anybody who's not a massive feudal Japanese history nerd, the way it happened is less important than what happened afterward. Ieyasu responded with saying, you know, you need to take this back or you know, I'm gonna thump you right

He already said you know I I there's no ins. I don't understand what you're talking about There's no insult which could be taken as I don't understand what you're talking about. There's no insult It could be I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't do anything. I'm just asking questions I'm just yeah, you know I all I said was know, I'm just saying yeah, it's like, okay So I'll see you in New Jersey at dawn. All right. Yeah Yes, and And so we have the siege of Osaka Castle in in 1613 when

everybody who Might have still been a loyalist to the memory of the taiko took he to your ease idiot she's heirs side and They they fought valiantly and got murdered Just just Molly walked and they were gonna die that way They were this a lot of them were pretty like like the highest ups were pretty sure We're not we're not gonna win this but god damn it. We're gonna go out fighting right

Whether he'd Yoshi's air Thought that or if he genuinely thought that no no they're gonna you know, I'm Legitimately the heir of the Taiko and whatever, you know, we don't know for sure. But at that point, after the siege of Osaka castle, um, there, there was no opposition to the Tokugawa for the next 250 years. Right. And that dynasty maintained a military dictatorship,

semi-feudal military dictatorship over the country until Perry showed up with a gunboat. Could I be any more American? Yeah, boy, I tell you what. Um, and, and so in Japan, Ieyasu is viewed as for lack of, I mean, saying he's the George Washington of Japan might, it doesn't translate. Kind of. Um, he's, he's, yeah, I don't know what British monarch to compare him to, but he's, he's kind of like the Charlemagne of Japanese history. Um, yeah, that, that holds or, or like the Sulaiman or, yeah. Um, and,

and he is, he is considered the founder of, you know, what, what eventually turned into modern Japan, right? By virtue of having succeeded in truly unifying the country under one government, right, which was generally speaking, remarkably efficient, and maintained peace and relative prosperity stability, again, for 250 years. Right. Now it has to be said from a Western point of view, this was done with absolute iron fisted rule

by a military class. And, you know, this is in a society where the idea of self rule was an alien concept. So, you know, to us with our traditions of governance by the people, this is like, Oh my God, awful. You know, he had, he had the remainder of whatever ninja clans had existed during the Sengoku Jidai became his secret police. Um, you know, you could be arrested and executed for speaking ill of the Shogun or the government. You know, it was, it was a military dictatorship, um, to the people of Japan. It was a time of peace and prosperity that lasted 250 years after

they'd been through nearly a century of constant feudal warfare. So yeah, you know, pick your poison, I suppose. And so yeah, and you earlier hit the nail on the head and kind of beat me to the comparison. But in Japanese popular media, the Edo period is like the American Western frontier is for us. Sure. It is the era they look to as being the formation of their national identity. I was gonna say the most mythic version of themselves. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. That's a better way of putting it, I think. It is the time period they look to for their national myth. And yeah, and that's how it happened. And you know, and Ieyasu as a figure is fascinating. And you know and Ieyasu as a figure is fascinating And yeah, so that's that's what I got Wow, that's Yeah, I got nothing to say I mean that's I learned a lot so

well good, and I got to I got to get it out of my system because I'm finally teaching you know seventh grade again and feudal Japan is part of the curriculum But I don't get to go into any of this because we don't have enough time right Yeah, so you know you you saved my students having to listen to me rant about how frustrated I am That like your well there's students. There's there's's so much more I could be telling you but damn it Yeah, so yeah cool Alright, well, uh, let's see. Um What do you what do you what's your what's your takeaway my takeaway? It's interesting when things coalesce in such a way that like you get something really positive

out of it even if it's not from an inherently positive source. Okay. So suffice it to say we're nowhere near where we should be in terms of sensitivity, cultural representation, etc. But we're a damn sight further along than we were growing up. And so it will be like if fetishization happens of a culture in a given work, it's almost always despite the availability of what's out there instead of because of the lack of what's out there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the people who made Shogun, they benefited from a tremendous infrastructure that's in place to essentially pad the know, pad the bottom line for the studios. And at the same time, they... Like you said, it's coming from a place of, well, we hate China now. So... You know, like, there's just like that cultural animus against them. Or antipathy against them and so

Those two things kind of coalesced and and looks like we got really good art out of it We oh, oh man. We did yeah like you know yeah So I you know that's that's what's kind of tripping me up And I'm also thinking about back when Kurosawa's films were popular in America Yeah, again, it was at a time where Relations with China were very strained if if existent at all Yeah, you know George Lucas grew up watching Kurosawa films. Yeah, because it was in the 50s So he's during that great leap forward and and stuff like like that like you know, there's children starving in China

You know, it's that it was that time so you know, it's you know you hear about like zombie movies are popular when Republicans at office and vampire movies are popular when a Democrats in office that's actually kind of been blown up in the last 20 years yeah, I dare say because Republicans have pulled everybody right so it doesn't there is no polarization now. But that being said like you can kind of see where we are

internationally with who the bad guys are. Oh definitely. And at the same time who the bad guys aren't because the biggest overseas market for our movies is China and the amount of changing and editing that went into anything MCU oriented. Oh yeah. Oh my god. For instance. Yeah. You know and the movie Shang-Chi actually, and the critiques that came out about it had, you know, largely to do with how it underperformed globally and stuff like that. And so, you know, again, it's look at who's who's not being talked about. Look, who's not in the room. Yeah. Well, you know, you saying that reminds me of the the Top Gun sequel.

OK. I was going to think I was thinking of the Red Dawn reboot, too. Well, that yeah, there's that. But the the Top Gun sequel. It's it's like really, really clear that when the script was being written, the writer was really thinking of China, but all of the, like, there's no mention of a specific nation anywhere.

They don't say Iran and they sure as shit don't say China. They just talk about the enemy, you know, and their fourth gen fighters, which by the way, the idea of the Chinese developing fourth gen fighter is one of those things, or fifth gen, is one of those things that those defense analysts I talked about earlier have had their hair on fire about. And in the context, it's worth noting that in the same way that the Reagan administration played up and exaggerated the numbers in, in their analysis of Soviet military power during the cold war,

there is, I think a less conscious, but still present, a tendency to overestimate the capabilities of the stuff that the Chinese and the Russians also are in the process of developing. Because a bigger scarier bogeyman sells more magazines. Right. Basically.

So. So. But yeah, clearly that had been edited so that it wasn't, it was not the Chinese. Right. You know. But they. And we saw, yeah, go ahead.

But it is, there are things about it that make it clear that it could also be Iran. Yes. And they don't mention Iran by name. Well in the first movie though, But it is there are things about it that make it clear that it could also be Iran. Yes And they don't mention Iran by name Well in the first movie though, they they never mentioned the enemy either. That's true They say though the other side will deny it. That's all they say. That's true. So Yeah, when it was I mean there was really clear with the Russians, but yeah I mean they were using Migs, but Migs can be be sold. So yeah, but anyway, yeah, I think that It's it's interesting to see who doesn't get mentioned and then to see who gets mentioned positively. I think you can kind of triangulate

Yeah, who are Our anxieties are about yeah. Yeah cool. What do you want people to consume media wise? One, I would actually say, kind of in a related way, the most recent Godzilla films, I'm going to recommend partly just because they're an awful lot of fun and partly because it is, I think anyway, they are American adaptations of a medium from Japan that actually managed managed to capture the spirit and the and the feel Genuinely without without feeling as Appropriative and some of the other American made Godzilla films have been so

Yeah, and Ken Watanabe is amazing nice in anything so there you go How about you? I'm gonna actually recommend I don't normally give homework but here get a copy of the unauthorized definitive Star Wars Legends timeline. Okay. By Trevor Davy. So it's Star Wars has its own versions of the multiverse by virtue of being sold to Disney as well. And the result is that there is the legends and then there's the canon. And there's all kinds of interesting about that. I need to do an episode just on that whole thing, but that will be for another day. Okay.

All right, you're a shadow in the warp. What about where they can find us? Collectively, we can be found on our website at www.geekhistorytime.com. We can be found on the Apple Podcast app, the Amazon Podcast app, and on Spotify. Wherever you found us, please take a minute to subscribe and to give us the five-star review that you know we deserve. And how about you, sir? Well as of

this recording, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you can find me at the Comedy Spot in Sacramento at 9 p.m. on Friday, February 7th, March 7th, and April 4th. Frankly, any first Friday of the month, but at 9 p.m. bring 12 bucks. Better yet, go to the Comedy Spot's website and buy your tickets there so you don't get shut away at the door because we sell out frequently. So come see us do our pun tournament. Myself, Justine Lopez, Mark Berg, and the four guests that we have this month, which it's going to be amazing.

Very cool. Yeah. Well, for A Geek History of Time, I'm Damian Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock. And until next time, Banzai!