A Geek History of Time - Episode 310 - Double Crossing the Gold Dust Trio with Ken Zimmerman jr. Part I

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Okay, so there's there there are two possibilities going on here. One you're bringing up a term that I have never heard before. The other possibility is that this is a term I've heard before, but it involves a language that uses pronunciation that's different from Latinate, and so you have no idea how to say it properly. It's an intensely 80s post-apocalyptic schlock film. Oh, and schlong film. You know, it's been over 20 years, but spoilers.

Oh, okay, so the resident Catholic thinking about that. We're going for low Earth orbit. There is no rational. Blame it on me after. And you know I will. They mean it is two o'clock in the fucking morning. Where I am. I don't think you can get very much more homosexual panic than that. No.

Which I don't know if that's better. I mean you guys are Catholics. You tell me. I'm just kind of excited that like you and producer George will have something to talk about That basically just means that I can show up and get fed I'm going to go to the bathroom. This is a Geek History of Time, where we connect with the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher at the middle school level here in Northern California. And last night was our game night for this month for my family's Pathfinder game with a bunch of our friends. And my son, we were in a semi-climactic battle

against a group of giants. And my son managed to score a really, really major hit on one of the dire bears that the giants had as part of their force. And everybody around our virtual table was like, all right, good job, you know. And I said, dude, you did, that was great. You scored a critical hit. And he goes, what's a critical hit mean?

I said, well, it means you hit the bear in someplace vital. Without so much as a pause or batting an eyelash my son's immediate response was oh Like I hit him in the nuts Awesome like Is this where this starts is it is it at seven? I thought it would be later, but no no so yeah, we are we are now fully ensconced in the toilet humor that's been since forever, of course. And now, you know, hit him in the ding ding has become a thing. And I know it's going to stay a thing because I just used the phrase hit him in the ding ding, Which anybody who's one of my old friends listening to this knows I I got at a table when I was in college

Yeah That was my moment was like, ah, okay That's the phase my son has now entered and will be in for the rest of his life as as a dude So how about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a US history teacher at the high school level up here in Northern California. And this is going to date this show a little bit, but screw it, I'm proud. My son has done what I never could do in high school. He got a 4.0. No kidding. That's awesome. Yeah. And that's brilliant. In typical William fashion. I was like, Dude, do you know what this means? He's

like, Yeah, I got all A's. I'm like, Exactly. I mean, do you have any idea how hard that is? He's like, No. And I was like, Okay. Um, I've never done it. Uh know, and I'm a teacher now and and that I know he's like, oh, okay I'm gonna go research trains now God damn it boy. So you man. Yeah, like yeah. Yeah, that's awesome Because he is on a different schedule than what you and I teach you and I teach like like a six period day He is on what's known as a four by four and that means four classes in semester one and then four classes in semester two Okay, so uh a year-long class is ten units Right four classes of ten units each semester one four units of ten units each semester two

So you could take english 10 or english 1 or whatever in semester one and you're not taking english each semester two. So you could take English 10 or English 1 or whatever in semester one, and you're not taking English in semester two, you're taking math or whatever. So that means- That's a compressed fucking timeline. It is, but it works so much better because number one, they get more units. Number two, access to more units.

And number two, they got less homework through the day. Less subject switching. Oh, okay, all Yeah, that makes sense. All right cool But as you know, I pay my kids for their grades and yes big believer of this so my daughter said You're gonna have to adjust your pay rate for him because he only has four classes and I have six and I was like Oh, you're right. She's like it needs to be 1.5 times as much. I was like, oh yeah, you're right, okay. So she'd already mathed it out for him.

Wow, like is he paying her a retainer? No, God no, they stick up for each other, you know that. Well yeah, I know they do, but like damn. Yeah. Yeah, and how wonderful that is because stories I've heard from other know other siblings are not like that Yeah, so good job their dad. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so anyway we actually I am so excited I'm not only because my son's grades not only because my daughter stuck up for him financially

but also we have a guest tonight an author of Many many books one of which that I really enjoyed most recently called double crossing the gold dust trio I think I recommended it you did way back in the day by Ken Zimmerman jr And Ken Zimmerman jr. Is with us today. He is a st. Louis Denizen he has been interested in and a student of combat sports Since he started watching pro wrestling in about 1979 I think And that means he's been big into the like the the singular territory when there were territories That was the one most responsible for changing the title over in the NWA days

So I'm gonna just keep gushing if I don't stop. So I'm gonna stop myself. Ken, welcome to our show. Thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. So I thought I would start before I even get into the topic today to kind of reinforce something that you guys have said in previous podcasts. And that is pro wrestling has always been this way so I have researched back to 1870 there were matches in the 1860s but I have not found any of the counts of those yet but I'm still looking right but going all the way back to 1870 there were always work matches yep more were contests than were works, but going all the way back to 1870 there were always work matches. And it's always been this way. And it's tough to research

these things because the whole goal of professional wrestling is to mix fact and fiction and to trick us. So you have to try to be a bit of an investigator besides a researcher and a historian and Look at all of the things that are available out there One of my favorite things that Jim Cornett once said was that professional wrestling is simulated combat meant to look real Unless it's Japanese Wrestling because then it's real combat made to look simulated You've actually had contact with Jim Cornett haven't you he's had you on his podcast hasn't he no I've only been a guest on the martial culture

podcast okay talking about God's versus Hackenschmidt because they were interested in the Hooking aspect of professional wrestling. Okay. I know that they've mentioned your books a couple times on the cornet podcast. So Yeah, okay And you know he he operated out of Memphis quite often but also yes Seaboard yeah, mid-south into Louisiana territories. He had a good couple runs there. So yeah but anyway, um, yeah, I'm super excited because the last screw job that I talked about Was not the Montreal screw job of Brit the hitman Hart. There was another Montreal screw job But I talked about goth version versus Hackenschmidt

and I said that you know coming up we're gonna talk about the This the the double cross the Goldust trio Which is gonna feature one of the guys Ed that I've talked about before Stanislaus Zbysko Yeah, okay, and his brother Vladek Zbysko and so this is what a few things Zabisco and so this is what a few things for our listeners if you've heard the name Gold Dust it's because you're thinking of Dustin Rhodes or Dustin Runnels who took that name as an homage to his dad Dusty Rhodes Gold Dust but

also there's another fellow involved named, was it Billy Sandow? Billy Sandow, the manager of Ed Strangler Lewis. Right, and Billy Sandow, his name got reappropriated by a man named Damian Sandow, who was just one of the funniest wrestlers in the last 15, 20 years. And he did that on purpose. So when I say history or wrestling has always

been this way it's always been this way it's yeah even Ed the strangler Lewis took his name from Evan the strangler Lewis so it's just I mean it it's it is a self cannibalizing snake eating itself it's it is a it is a it is a flat disc. Yeah Time is a flat. Yeah Okay, very groovy. So yeah So yeah, I can teach us and I hope you don't mind that we interrupt with lots of questions historical context and The odd pun. Yes. No, I appreciate you guys jumping in whenever you have anything Sure, and Zabisco is really the center of this story because without Zabisco there is no double

cross of the Goldust Trio. He was really the critical piece to actually carrying out this double cross. And so I'm going to start with the double cross and I'm going to end with the double cross. Okay. And so on April 15th, 1925, 45 year old Stanislaus Zabisco double crossed the current world champion, Wayne Big Mun, a former college football player,

and he took the world title from Mun in what was supposed to be a two out of three falls match where Zabisco put Mun over. He was gonna let Mun win two of the three falls. Right. Zabisco put mon over he was gonna let mon win two of the three falls, right? And mon was one of the first kind of non working champions, too, right? Yes, he couldn't only well he only knew how to perform right he could not wrestle legitimately So I'm sorry non shooting. Yeah, he can only work. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right

Okay, so so are it so he was he was a theatrical creature Yes, yes, okay. He was big. I mean he was what six four six five to six six in between 230 to 260 Yeah, so physically a challenge yeah, but not for these guys that knew how to hook so I'll use Three terms worker is somebody that's just skilled at performing a match right really has no legitimate wrestling skills a Shooter is someone who is a legitimate wrestler, but not really that skilled in submissions That's actually what Stanislaw Zavisco and Vladek Zavisco would have been they had a Greco-Roman background right came late to catch wrestling did not we're not as good as suburbs and then

The top of the food chain were the hookers and we're not talking about ladies of the evening We're talking about wrestlers who are skilled at hooks, which is the term they use for submissions, right? So if you think of the kimura lock from if you've ever seen mixed martial arts, they have a kimura lock That is the double arm wrist lock from professional wrestling The bending your arm the wrong direction to put pressure on your humerus basically. Yeah. Yeah the the front face And The front face lock is the guillotine choke So if you've ever seen a guillotine choke, that's the front face lock and that's actually the stranglehold that Ed Strangler Lewis used early in his career and that was

the stranglehold Evan Strangler Lewis a lot of historians used to think it was the what we would call a model they own a rear naked choke right but it was actually the guillotine choke with what those guys were using and that's kind of funny too because for the longest time I had it that they they just had created the headlock and cinched it down on the neck like the way the descriptions came across to me was that but Through further research. Yeah, it wasn't that it was no guillotines Yeah, whereas the the rear naked choke later and gets modified into what we know is the sleeper hold Rear naked choke later and gets modified into what we know is the sleeper hold

Okay, and which is fun because the referees do the little thing where they check under to make sure it's not and it's I mean It's it's as fantastical as reversing a figure four and suddenly it undoes all the damage Yeah, that doesn't hurt at all a figure four does but not the reverse. So But yeah, so Ed Ed Lewis used the the guillotine He used a guillotine originally but that that hold because of Evan Strangler knew us had such a reputation They've been most state athletic commissions actually banned it legitimately. Yeah, so then he went to a three-quarters Nelson Which he called the neck yoke before settling on the headlock. And the headlock is not a dangerous hole. If you can come around the neck to put it into a bulldog choke, it is, but very few

people can do that. So the headlock, and you knew Lewis was shooting when he didn't use the headlock. If he used the headlock, he was working. If he didn't, he might be shooting because you never put someone on your back like that Right, like they can just lift I mean the way out of a headlock in in current wrestling since I've been watching is either a Belly to back suplex or I guess a side suplex or an atomic drop Which was one of my favorite ones from the 80s also does no damage to a person

You just lift him up and put him down on your knee Greg Valentine took the best Atomic drops ever because he would just like act like it threw him off balance and that he was hurting through his core Yes, so fun by the by I forgot to mention that the name Zabisco is Also a reused name because Larry Zabisco is also a reused name because Larry Zabisco, who I grew up watching in AWA, who was brought in under the tutelage of Bruno Sanmartino. And they had that feud. And Larry Zabisco never really stayed in the wwwf very long after that feud

And I don't think he made his way back through he stayed mostly awa and then he moved south and kind of semi-retired Yeah, um, but zabisco he took his name from the zabisco brothers. Yes so Yeah, everything keeps getting reused and I mean you'll see see throughout history that George Hackenschmidt was such a huge. So then you have a Charles Hackenschmidt. You have a young Hackenschmidt. You have a young Frank Gotch. Yeah. Yeah.

There were multiple Strangler Lewis's. Some claimed familial relations with Evan Strangler Lewis and others did not. It's not unlike Ed, when we talk about Oli and Arne Anderson The Minnesota Wrecking Crew neither of whom was an Anderson And aren't the most famous of the two Andersons Was actually not related to them at all Like it just it's it's all kind of fun. So yeah, it's kind of a

Absolutely K-Fame. Yeah. So, okay. So we've got, you've got the Stanislaw Zabisco, who, as I recall, this was kind of his swan song of his career. Yeah, he wrestled semi-retired after this, but this was kind of the end for him after this. One of the things with wrestling, when you double-cross somebody, sometimes the promoters are hesitant to use you.

Even the ones that worked with you on the double-cross, because they figure, well, if you double-cross them and they trusted you, maybe you'll double-cross me too. Very Tarpaian. Yeah You know, yeah, and he had been if I recall correctly he had been a Prisoner of war during World War one. He was he was stuck in Europe for a while So yeah, Stanislaus, Obispo is actually the rare wrestler that wrestled both Frank Gatch and Ed Strangler Lewis Yeah, he bridged that gap. Yeah, and he was actually supposed to wrestle Lewis when Lewis was young in 1914, but that

match never came off. Right, and I think at that time that was Zabisco kind of snubbing him, is that correct? It was. Yeah, Lewis was really young and hadn't really developed a national reputation yet. He was working his way up. But Gotch wrestled Zabisco in 1910 in a very controversial match because I believe they worked their first match. They had a match in December of 1909 that was Gotch agreed to throw Zabisco twice in an hour or 90 minutes and he didn't so Zabisco was considered

the winner but of course not for the title but I think they worked that to set up the title match in June of 1910. But that match was a contest and Louis, I'm not Louis, gotch walked up to Zabisco went to shake his hand kind of touch it and tackled him off the handshake and pinned him in six seconds What yeah, you you might remember that from our gotch hack and Schmidt thing Yes, that was between the two matches and yes, it was because you remember Zabisco had had worked the tournament In England to kind of tune up Hackenschmidt and bring his rep back.

And then there were injuries that kind of interfered with that. But yeah, Gotch has never been a nice person ever. No. The one thing I'll say about Gotch, Gotch cheated to win. Whereas like in Evan Strangler Lewis, he would hurt you just to hurt you. Or an ad Santel, if you made those guys mad, they would hurt you just to hurt you, not necessarily to win. Gotch was a dirty wrestler, but I will say his dirty wrestling was always, he didn't do it if he didn't need to, but boy, he did it when he needed to. Yeah.

And he beat Zabisco that second fall, like a half hour later, and then never would wrestle Zabisco again. Right. Zabisco was the obvious number one contender for three more years. Gotch would never get back in the ring with him, and that's the only person gotch ever avoided. Yeah. So that just shows you how good Stanislaw Zabisco was when he came back to the United States in 1921, he had been a prisoner of war for two or three years. And if you look at the photos of him,

when he comes back to the United States, the prisoner of war camp aged him. He's 41, he could easily pass for 50. Yeah. Because the picture on the cover of that book is from their 1921 match where they're shaking hands before that match starts. And you look at Zbysko and he looks to be like he's 50 years old. Trying to get it in the screen sorry. There. Oh yeah.

You see I mean he looks I mean that's some Baron von Raschke kind of look there. It really is yeah.. Like he, and again, they advertised him as being 5-10 years older than he was too. So he was 41, they're saying he's 45 or 46. Really? Was that to try to

pump up or amp up the drama involved or make him less of a... They were building him. They were building him as the grand old man of wrestling. Okay. And they were emphasizing the fact that even though, and the fans didn't know that as much as they could have, but he was at that time at 41 to 45, he could still beat almost every

wrestler and wrestling other than Lewis. Lewis told Luthes there were only two people in the 20s that he thought could beat him. One was his training partner, Joseph Tutsmont, who was part of the Gold Dust Trio that we'll talk about in just a bit. And the other one was Stanislaus Sibisco, who was already in his mid-40s. But Lewis said that's the one guy that I think that could be... And you're talking 12, 13 years after he wrestled Frank Gotch. That's just...

He was, as a shooter, there were very few people that could touch him. Yeah. But he'd also had a reputation by that point of being somebody willing to work. Yes. By that point of being somebody willing to work Yes, he he had been doing worked matches since I think before the turn of the century like Acknowledged as such yes, and and there's also this gray area of exhibition work. So Ed if you remember I talked about how when Hacken Schmidt would wrestle the local champion and what he would do is he would let the guy go to the 15-minute time limit To drum up interest for the Friday night, right? And so that's a kind of a work too

Yeah, you know is where you just kind of draw it out and you don't try your best and you could call it an exhibition But there's a few things going on there, right? So sandbagging. Yeah. Yeah and Zabisco was was known to cooperate with people Yeah, yeah and Zabisco was was known to cooperate with people And which is helpful when you're trying to build a champion, especially one like Munn But yes, yeah, and it was that reputation which helped put him in position For Billy Sandow to trust him, right? Because the double cross actually goes back ten years before all of this occurred. It has its beginnings in 1914 with one of the players. So Ed Strangler Lewis and had respect for Stanislaw Sibisco. He did not have that respect or admiration

for his younger brother Vladek. And it goes all the way back to their very first wrestling match. So when I talk about hookers and you talk about a guy like Ed Santel or Evan Strangler Lewis, if you made them mad in the ring, they would hook you and hurt you.

They would try to break something. Ed Strangler Lewis was not like that. Even though he was a great hooker and could have done that, he tended to punch people when he got mad in the ring. That's how you knew things were devolving in that match, was he would get mad and he would start throwing fists. And the very first match he had with Vladik Zabisco

in Detroit, and I think it was April of 1914, at the time they're both 22 years old, April 7th of 1914, they're both 22 years old. They're both just developing a national reputation. Vladik Zabisco has just come from Europe. He and his brother kind of crossed like ships in the night for about six months to maybe a year. So, I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. Apologies about that. The internet around this time of night everybody turns on their Netflix

so it dips right around this time of a recording. You said that Stanislaus had gone back to join the Polish army which as I recall Poland didn't exist yet. Like back, you help me out here. Yeah. You're right. But he was part of the, uh, the. He wasn't put Austro Hungarian empire. Yes. Thank you. And that's where he was at. Yeah. Okay.

But there was a Polish army, just like there had been a Bavarian army in Germany, you know, stuff like that. So the Polish identity absolutely existed. And if you recall, Ed, when we talked about the Gottsch version of Hackenschmitt, one of the reasons for having matches in Chicago was there was a very large Polish population. And I had to go back through the census records and I had to look for people who were called Russian, because that's what American nationalization or naturalization agents wrote them down as coming from.

Yeah, which had to just piss the hell out of them. Likely. So, yeah. So Stanislaus goes back to Poland. And so Vladek is here and he's an up and comer. He's 22. There is 11 years difference between Stanislaus and Vladek. Stanislaus born in 1880 Vladek is born in 1891. Right

Lewis takes a match with him in Detroit, which also has a large Polish population. So Vladek Zbysk was very popular there. Yep Polish population. So Vladek Zbyskow is very popular there. There was some tension going into this match. This was a worked match, supposed to be a worked match. But Lewis had said before the match, hey, I think Zbyskow takes liberties with people and he's not going to take liberties with me. And so Zbyskow had said that basically if he tries to do something with me, he'll find out that I'm more than he can handle. And so you say, well, this is all a storyline and stuff. And it does sound like the storyline, right? But then it gets out of hand.

So you're like, okay, it might've been a storyline that turned into a shoot or something because they start throwing real punches. And this is not an unusual occurrence for matches with the two of them So first 20 minutes, they're shoving each other around they Hitting each other with the palm Forearming each other and finally what's kicked them off. Everything is flotix the big scope poked Lewis in the eye, right and Lewis punches At least one right cross knocks him off his feet and

is getting ready to come down on him well the fans start to come towards the ring in a wave and so everybody's trying to break everything up before this turns into a full-scale riot and the Detroit police end up having to escort them back to the dressing room before things get out of hand. This would be one thing if this was an isolated occurrence, but this happened at like the first three or four matches that they had together. Right. And no kidding.

Yes. And Lewis detested Vladek Zabisco. And Vladek wasn't too keen on him either. No. There's a thing about European wrestlers that are coming over at this time. A lot of the ones that make it over here tend to be very highly educated and refined on levels that are not just physical. Vladek was a pianist. Stanislas was an actor and I believe he sang and he spoke a bunch of languages.

Hackenschmidt wrote in like seven different languages Well, yeah, we talked about the package meant being Kind of a freak Renaissance men, right? Yeah, and so that's who comes over and then they meet I'm not I don't want to sound classist, but they meet essentially hayseeds who are good at physically wrestling but often cheating But there are guys so, you know But so what ends up happening is you get like these culture clashes too that kind of deep in these divides Where they can't trust each other even further Yeah, I mean if you look at Frank gotch Frank gotch would it be what we would today consider a heel he cheated all the time

Always. Yeah But he was a national hero. Right. People cheered for him when he filed Hackenschmidt so badly in that first match. Yeah. He was all beat up like he'd been in a prize fight. He even said he pointed to the referee. He pointed out the next day. He's like, as you can see, like he scratched and clawed at my eyes. And I mean, keep in mind, like, it was not unheard of. And in fact, it was kind of like an accepted norm that if you picked a fight with a wrestler outside of the ring,

right, if you were just some civilian picking a fight with a wrestler, his reputation is how tough he is. So your eye was forfeit. Like, you would get fishhooked you would lose an eye like this happened on the regular especially with guys who were known uh known hookers and and known shooters um and and i do mean your eye was forfeit like there are there are tales this happens more so in the 30s and 40s but there are tales of people picking bar fights with wrestlers, you know get that liquid courage. You're not so tough This is all fake because the report had come out in the newspaper by then and And you'd find out that you can't look right anymore Yeah, they trained them to do that. They'd say when you go when you go after the eyes It takes the fight right out of the

They train people to do that. They'd say, when you go, when you go after the eyes, it takes the fight right out of the civilians. They train people to do that. So that's the other thing about pro wrestling. It's always been kind of a disreputable, uh, occupation, disreputable sport. A lot of the working in the 1800s and even the early 1900s and then when it's a pure work almost everything's a work they still are running these gambling schemes all the way up into the 1930s. Yeah, it was there was a huge court case out in San Francisco with car kick right in 1911. Yeah, and only Marsh got caught up in wine. There's one up in Seattle if I recall they were robbing people there was a stock salesman Believe it or not who was running one out of Iowa

Louisiana and one other place that's the one that only Marsh got caught up in yeah I mean some of the guys went to jail for five to ten years only Marsh went for like 14 months because he took a plea deal but I think Tom Jenkins was involved with robberies I think or I might be laterally associating him with somebody who had also been associated with him but yeah so it's it's always been a disreputable business. And we're going to get to one of the more disreputable in a business full of disreputable people as we're going here. So we've already established Zabisco and Ed Strangler Lewis do not get along

at all. Right, right. His other great rival that he did not get along with was a gentleman by the name of Joe Stecker Right and I have never found where there's any reason that the two of them didn't like each other Other than the professional rivalry in the 19 teens They were the two best hookers in the game and it was a competition between them of who was going to be the top one I Don't think it actually went the 11 hours but if you read Luthas's book he said they wrestled

three contests in night between 1915 and 1917 that went 11 hours was deadly dull and Ed Strangler Lewis well I found two of them one's two hours and the other one is about three hours and they are boring draws and Stecker was better than Lewis initially Lewis wrestled on the defense of those first couple of times they wrestled But then eventually Lewis passes him and once he kind of passed him Stecker never really caught up to him again, but Stecker is still when you look at that time period, it's Lewis, it's Stecker, and it's Zbysko, and John the Nebraska Tiger Man Pesek.

Those are the top guys that can legitimately go in the United States. Londis is a huge star, and he actually does know how to hook. He was taught when he was a carnival strongman by those wrestlers, but he never got close to their level. He was scared to death of Lewis. Yeah. Because he just wasn't on that level with those guys. Yeah. Londis is to Lewis what Sean was to Brett. Yes. Like, incredible performer. That's a good analogy. I mean, obviously very strong, very well built, and very skilled, very strong, very well built, and very skilled, but just absolutely outclassed as an actual wrestler.

Yes, absolutely. That's a really good analogy. And then the last person that this all goes back to the angst that Lewis has, but also his manager Billy Sandow has. And that goes back to one of the most disreputable people in a disreputable business and that is Jack Curley. So Jack Curley is the New York promoter. Yeah. And he starts getting into promotion in the late 1900s, early 19 teens. And he is one of the main guys in the promotional group that has that second gotch hack and schmidt match Yeah in Chicago and he had promised George hack and schmidt $43,000 right for that match but kept 30,000 of it. So George Hatch got 13,000

He kept 30,000 of it. Yeah, he also to convince hack and schmidt to go out there and wrestle that match He said we're gonna call all the bets off, which he announced in the newspaper, but then promptly sent his guys out into the Comiskey Park that day to generate the betting and he supposedly, what he told Marcus Griffin, and so there's a book that came out in 1937 called The Fall Guys, The Barnum's Abounds by Marcus Griffin. That is a great book to start your research, but never just repeat things out of that as it is gospel.

You gotta take it with a salt lick. Yeah, there's so much in there that's either it has been information missing a lot of times. It's part of a story or something a wrestler told him. Please. Yeah. I was going to say, uh, if I recall Griffin, uh, is out of Buffalo in New York area and he was, he was in the business and then he was mad because he didn't get what he wanted working in the offices.

And so it's kind of a burn book. Yes. And so not only kind of a burn book. Yes, absolutely. And so not only was he not always informed, he was also ill informed and he had an axe to grind. So like, you know, as an historian Ed. And yet. I'm listening to this going so yeah. But at the same time, there are things that he did know.

So you really have to sift. They're not into this much? Right, yeah. But at the same time, there are things that he did know. So you really have to sift. They wanted to smudge? Right. Yeah. Funny you'd say that, because Jack Kerley mentioned that the Hackenschmitt-Gotch match was Ajax versus Ulysses. So yeah. But yeah.

They tell you that historians have always been this way. Right. I mean. Yeah, but Griffin's book is really good because I think it gets at the culture really, really well, but it's not fact dense. It's like background information dense. And you have to do your own research and check everything.

Yeah. But the one thing that he said about Curly sending people out into Comiskey Park, that is completely in character with Jack Curly. Oh, I could believe that that happened. Curly is also probably the one. If this fight was fixed, which if you read Collier's eyes, details about this, it probably was fixed. The 1915 fight between Jess Willard and Jack Johnson

Yeah, Jack Curly is the one that offered Jack Johnson like $60,000 to throw that away. It wasn't all out of his pocket. Some of it was film rights and Jack Johnson knew he'd make a fortune if you could sell that film right in the United States in Europe Yeah sell that film right in the United States and Europe. Except hold on. Yeah. Sixty thousand dollars in what year? Nineteen fifteen. I'll pull up the calculator for you. Yeah. Yeah. But that that remember it wasn't that one.

It was a different one. It was a different fight where the United States government Passed a law saying you couldn't Show this movie because it was Jack Johnson beating somebody if I recall Yeah, it was probably Jeffries if I was that's what it was. Yeah, he beat a gentleman Jim. Yeah, so Alright, so 1915 monies That would be 1.8 million dollars dollars. Yeah, yeah, I was

Chi many yes, man so so I'm picturing is there is there any photographic record of this guy curly? Anywhere, and do we know what he looked like? Oh, there's yeah, okay? Yeah, the image that I have in my mind Is is bringing? From the from the Disney animated movie years ago about the wind in the willows Whatever the barman's name was who who framed?

Toed with with the whole motorcar. He's just this guy with a big gigantic gold tooth in the front of his face and a big You know handlebar mustache and oh, yeah, I don't know anything about any motorcar And just check the chat. Okay. I've given you the picture right in there, so He's much more rough-and-tumble sounding quite okay. He looks like somebody Yeah, he looks like somebody with who would have a nickname of you know the fish right yeah, okay got it wow yeah Okay, so yes thoroughly disreputable Yes, we've he was a Frenchman born in San Francisco by the way and his parents had fled the Franco-Prussian War By the way, and his parents had fled the Franco-Prussian war

Previously and then yeah, so I mean in San Francisco Paris of the West as it was called makes sense You go there, but also always a big town for gambling for York of the West Coast really so, you know Really? I mean the vaudeville circuit really gets going out of there Which is also made to separate people from their money, so this is true Jack Curley is is Engineer of that kind of kind of commerce yeah, okay And Curley controls wrestling in the 19 teens he's right. He's promoting, New York He has enough alliances with promoters in that that he's controlling the world title. So the world title is going between

Stecker, Earl Kattuck, Vladik Zbysko, and Ed Strangler-Lewis. Some of the newspapers even call it the Curly World Championship. Frank G. Meck, who's one of the sports writers of that era, referred to it as the Curly Championship. And he would break, he had an in in Curly's office and he would break when they were going to switch the belt and infuriate Curly all the time. But this is building animosity with Sandow and Lewis because Curly is controlling who is winning what when and Lewis doesn't have his first world title run until December of 1920 when he beat Stecker.

So in that World War I period, Earl Kadok serves in the army and he's gone for like two years and they have kind of like an interim title that is sort of kind of, but isn't really and Vladek Zabisco has it and Stecker has it. have kind of like an interim title that is sort of kind of but isn't really and Vladek Zabisco has it and Stecker has it and I think Lewis wrestled for it but I think Lewis's first title reign was December 13th 1920 and he beat Stecker and Lewis's claim was that Stecker didn't want to drop it to him so he took it from him. That is not true. That was a work from the get-go. It was the headlock versus the body scissors and after an hour and 37 minutes Lewis goes over. But he's only

the champion for six months which was kind of surprising. Because normally it was about a two-year circuit. Yes. They would hold it for a lot longer. And this time it was six months and in May he drops it to Stanislaus Zabisco. This is Zabisco's first world title reign at 41 years of age. So how Zabisco got back? He was in a prisoner war camp, but he was stuck in Europe trying to get back to the United States for almost two years. And he made friends with a senator from Illinois, and I wish I would have written his name down, but he made friends with a senator from Illinois who was interested in a Polish war relief fund and he was willing to wrestle to support that.

That senator is the one that helped him get the papers he needed to get back into the United States and that happened in early 1920. He had been trying to get back to the US since 1918. Oh wow. And he starts to wrestle but there is another gentleman running around at that time. He's what they would call the original trust buster. He is also a legitimate wrestler, but not on the level of the four guys that I was talking about, Stecker, Pesek, Subisco, and Ed Strangler Lewis. And his name is Marin Plastina.

And he is trying to get a title shot with the world champion. And they're not letting him have because even though Lewis could have, I think easily beaten him at the time, I think Stecker could have beaten him at the time, Curly and Billy Sandow both were of the opinion. You don't get in a legitimate contest with these guys because you never know what could happen if you get an injury or anything else. Anything can happen in a contest and you could end up losing. Zabisco doesn't realize that this is a political minefield that

he's stepping into the middle of and Marin Plastina is challenging everybody in New York. He goes, I'll wrestle him. And he's finally, probably finds himself unbooked by Jack Kerley. by Jack Curly. So he says, well, wait a minute, maybe I won't wrestle him. And he backs out of the challenge with Postina. And Curly was so happy about that. Curly had decided that, well, if we don't give you a world title run soon, we're not going to be able to give you a world title run because this is a 41 year old. It looks like he's almost 50. So he books him to wrestle Lewis in May in New York City and they wrestled at the 71st

Street Regimental Armory which was the normal place they wrestled in New York City. They didn't book Madison Square Garden very much because it was so expensive to run. And they would normally draw eight to nine thousand fans which could be accommodated in the armory So that's a lot of times where they they wrestled at yeah cheaper overhead It doesn't really become like the venue of mythology Until god I want to say in like the 40s, right? It was dark for a while in the 40s

Londis they do book it a few times with Londis in the 30s. But then it has that drought until I think 52, right? Yes. Yep. And then first you have the tag team, Antonina Rocca and Miguel Perez. They kind of bring the resurgence back and then Bruno comes in and of course he sells it out constantly. Right. Because Vince Sr. realized, oh it's new york. We need ethnicities Yes, and so you you have an italian you have a puerto rican you have a you know, And on and on that's I mean you remember ed hulk hogan was brought in because he wanted an irishman So he got got an italian from florida

So um real quick Ken, I know that The 19 teens was obviously you had the war and you had a vacate a vacating of the title at one point But I noticed that you were talking about who was trading it back and forth Marikas didn't get into that discussion. It was a sh Lynn. She'll show me that shown line. Yeah, and So he won What they said was that the world title that was gotch retired in 1913, but nobody accepted that right? Okay, you don't you don't have a world title really between 1913 and 1915 when Stecker beat Charlie Cutler that

match was supposed to be for the American heavyweight wrestling championship right but the fans recognized Stecker as the world title and that's when you get that world title yeah recognize again there was a tournament in New York City going on at the same time the New York International Wrestling Tournament and that was an attempt to replace gotch. But the fans didn't accept it because one, the tournament was in Greco-Roman wrestling, which was, that was the dominant style in the 1870s,

but not anymore, catch took over in the 1890s. Right, because you could have such variability in body size, and it was more exciting, even when it was a shoot. Because a shoot, I used to say, the only way. Even when it was a shoot because a shoot you I used to say that the only way you could tell it's a shoot is if it gets really dull. Yeah, because people don't want to take that, you know, make that one risk.

But even catch was much more exciting than Greco. Yes, when they were shooting. I just remember because America's if it was Fred Beale who was one of the guys that had beaten Gotch years prior And I think they were in your in your city For that so that's that was one of those things that I remembered. Yeah, that was a worked return. Yeah. Yeah So okay, that was one of the first times they got theatrical with with gotch going out hitting his head on the ring That's right. That's right

You know, it's funny in in my research for the gotch hack and Schmidt episodes I Found three things that I was like, oh my god wrestling has always been this way one somebody used a chair To there was little people wrestling. And three, there was women wrestling. As early as like, I think I found those as early as 1910. And I know they were earlier, but like those were reported in the newspapers. The earliest person I know of this Coral Livingston was 1908. That was Paul Bowser's wife. That's how Paul Bowser got involved in wrestling.

He was managing his wife besides being a wrestler himself. And then they took over the Boston promotion. She should really be in the Hall of Fame as well because without her, she was an equal partner in that promotion with Paul Bowser. You only ever hear about Paul Bowser, but she was involved as well. Was that the American wrestling? That was like the American Wrestling Association out of

Boston right yes he was the original AWA right right so I'm sorry we sidetracked as well I mean you listen to a few of our episodes you know we do this what do we yeah it's our culture that's perfectly fine I was afraid I was gonna do it on my own anyway without a lot of prompting so but so you've got all this animosity with this group right towards these guys from the teens and now you've got Zubisco he's got the title and he holds it not quite a year he holds it for about ten months right and they were actually gonna put the title back on Stecker but Fred G. Menk he rears his head again he writes that they're getting ready to drop the belt and

they're gonna drop it to Joe Stecker and it's gonna be a two-hour match and so instead yeah Lewis beats Zabisco in Wichita, which was kind of unusual because Wichita was a developing city. Mm hmm. It had just got started. But this was how Billy Sandow started to break away from the control. Right. Jack Curley. He started in the Midwest helping people get started in promotion. So Tom Law in Wichita actually got his start from Billy Sandow. Yeah. And the Sandow group, they helped get these guys started and that's how they started to pull

some of that influence away from Curly. Right. And if I recall, Ed Lewis becomes kind of the, I don't want to say the transitional because he held it for more than a week, but he kind of becomes the transitional to Wayne Munn. They have him keep it safe while they train Wayne up to be passable. Yes. And I forget who the guys that Wayne takes on during that time, but they were all people willing to work to make him look better.

Yes, they were all members of the Sandow promotion, and he was being trained by Lewis himself, right and toots Mott, right? And they kept the matches super short at first with Mott. Okay, they don't want no familiar. Yes Big guy squash matches. Yes, you know Bill Goldberg much but But you know and the thing is while they're training him up, okay So Ed has the the belt So ain't nobody getting it off of him and on top of that

Sandow is basically he at this point he'd started working the deal like if you want to set your venue You'll accept our wrestlers. Yes, and which is actually the so the Goldust trio Probably most disreputable, but the one that deserves the most credit for the changes they made in the 20 is actually Joseph Tutsma. So you had Ed Strangler Lewis, who once they put the title on him, I think would, because Curly switched it to Lewis instead of Stacker because of the expose by Manc. But now he put the title on him who's gonna take it

off him if he doesn't want to give it up exactly and Billy Sandow and Ed Lewis decided but we're not gonna give it up this time and Billy Sandow was the manager but he was also kind of getting into promotion and doing a little bit of booking they were running like an early booking office yeah Tutsman was Lewis's training partner and supposedly a great hooker himself He didn't really hook anybody that you know, we know of So we don't know if he ever got to the level of PESC and Stecker But Lewis said he did Lewis right vouch for him and said he's one of the two people I think could be me, right?

But Matt was a promotional genius He's the one that came up with the package shows of the three to four matches with a main event a co-main event a Preliminary with the young person you're trying to build up and that's what mon did initially Squash matches in the first match the second match was just something if you were gonna take a break That's where you would take it at would be in the so if the fans We're gonna run to the concession stand and do it during the second match the popcorn match Yeah, that or as I like to call it the Xbox match. Yeah And what you were talking about with that vaudeville Is he started booking it like vaudeville?

So right he took it Martin Farmer burns train Mont, and Martin Farmer Burns was one of the early people, he had a bunch of wrestlers he was training. Who would travel with, yes, and they would travel with him and Frank Gotch. So if Frank Gotch is defending in a town that has a full card, Gotch wrestles in the main event, and then they have the full card. But if they went to a place that didn't have,

they go to a New Orleans that doesn't have a developed circuit all of the wrestlers might be Farmer burns his wrestlers and gosh might be wrestling one of his guys that he normally trains with in a work Mm-hmm on the top of the card yeah, I just I would like to point out that a guy named farmer burns had a stable of wrestlers Yeah had a stable of wrestlers. Just really wanted... E-I-E-I-O. Yeah. But, you know, it's funny because I... Growing up, I remember... You remember the Scholastic Book Fairs, right?

I found the one that was about professional wrestling. I mean, it was like the size of a little Mr. Happy book. But I found those, and I would read them. And it had mentions of Buddy Rogers the original nature boy And Buddy Rogers, so that name stuck in my head. He was the original WWWF champion and He lost like a month later to

Bruno for the first seven-year run, but Buddy Rogers used to Historically like people hated him although he'd bring money But he'd always come in with his crew and he would like so anybody who was on the local circuit was like well shit Good luck getting me in into work because buddy didn't trust anybody, you know And so he he was and so it's that same model So when I read about the gold dust trail the first time i'm like, oh, that's the buddy rogers model But then I was like, oh this came first. Yeah But which is also still the the farmer burns model. So when I say wrestling has always been this way

So and the the twist that mont put on this that is what enraged Jack Curly Paul Bowser in Boston they no longer let so Jack Curly's got a full stable of people that he's promoting and adds on his cards regularly right he would pay a 10% booking fee for the champion when the champion was on his cards Mont Mott said, no, we're not going to do that anymore. So you're going to take all of our wrestlers. Ed is going to wrestle who we want him to wrestle. And he's not wrestling Vladek Zabisco, by the way, who's Jack Curley's top star. And Ed Strangler Lewis refused to wrestle two people during this second title

ring, Joe Stecker and Vladek Zabisco. Right. And so Curly is furious because Vladek Zabisco is his biggest star and he wants to get the world title on him and they're like no that's not even gonna wrestle him so don't even bring it up. Right. And they said so if you want Ed to come into your thing you're gonna book all our wrestlers, none of your wrestlers are gonna be on the card and we're gonna do a 50-50 split and we'll pay the wrestlers out of our 50 and the rest is our profit and you'll pay your overhead in the advertising and promotion

Out of your 50 and the rest is your profit and if you don't want that then you're not getting the world champion So Jack Curly who's controlled professional wrestling for the last 10 years is not happy and Curly is at one of his lowest EBS, right because it's come out that he did try to fix that Jack Johnson-Jesse Willard fight and the New York State Athletic Commission for a while was not letting him. He was still booking cards in New York but through an intermediary because they had removed his ability to promote and they had got the New York National Guard to kick him out of the regimental armories which is where he would have most of his

cards. Right. Oh no kidding. Yeah. This is 22-23 this is when he's at his lowest ebb. Yeah. So he's he's already feeling like he's losing control in New York and now Sandow, Lewis and Mont are telling him, no, we're going to do, this is how it's going to be and if you don't like it, then you don't get the world champion. Right. Because they're now, are they able to get away with this with him because of the circumstance that he was in or would this have happened whether he had gotten busted or not, do you think?

This would have happened whether he had gotten busted or not do you think this would have happened that they they were working on this for a while because Sandow got tired of being dictated He's got the greatest wrestler who can beat anybody and he's being told who you're gonna put over when you're gonna do it They wanted the control. Yeah, these guys backstab and double cross each other all the time and a lot of time It's over control and it's always over money Okay. Yeah. Okay, you know and Jack Curly by the way Certain people that like are associated with Jack Curly because he was a boxing promoter and the wrestling promoter. So

What's his name? Carpentier the guy who fought? George's Carpentier fought Jack Dempsey. That's what it was uh who up in Jersey Um, and so like he was tied to some really important stuff, but this is also during the time of prohibition So up and down that east coast You you I mean throw a bottle And and you'll find somebody who wants to sell it but also like there is just like we're this is at the time of Oh god, what was his name Arnold Rothstein?

Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky are getting started Your Al Capone is is out in in Chicago Still not a boss still working his way up under Joe Torrio. I think yeah, and You have these connections between the mob and Promoters anyway because disreputable businesses tend to rest on each other. They're complementary goods if you will Yeah, so to have a guy who is so known for corruption So to have a guy who is so known for corruption

It was just too hot to to keep near the so he had to work through intermediaries He was still getting his money, but to a lesser extent, but I mean still keeping the lights on he was fine But yeah He had to have that layer between him and you kind of see that same thing play out in Seattle and San Francisco with carkeek And god, I want to say Perkins, but that's not right him and you kind of see that same thing play out in Seattle and San Francisco with car geek and God, I want to say Perkins, but that's not right. But with other guys who were also involved in You know gambling because gambling was also considered, you know illegal and so they're involved with those kinds of things and so you see When pro wrestling comes out to San Francisco, while

Gotch still has the title even, as early as the teens, the early teens, there's not that much interest in it in San Francisco for a while because it has been stained by these guys who are clearly dishonest. So why would we pay our hard-earned money to go watch? What's probably a work anyway? So like it's a weird gray miasmic area On both coasts and and as we're seeing like throughout the Central States as well But yeah, Jack Curly he he was the most obvious Example and the one that people could kind of hang their hat on to

To say oh look, it's it's it's all fake and bad So he's he does not have the influence that he once had and he's he's upset about that because you've got these upstarts Who aren't upstarts? They're really good Hookers. Yeah, which means he can't control that either, you know Like it's just so many layers that he he's not able to do if I recall correctly jack curly had also gone over to england And was promoting hackenschmidt in some of the halls there. I might be mixing him up with somebody else though I think I am it might have been curly or it could have been sam rockman sam rockman and curly were partners in the second might have been Curly or it could have been Sam Rockman. Sam Rockman and Curly were partners in the second 1915. There was two versions of the tournament,

spring and fall. They were partners in the fall. Okay, that's what it was. Yeah. So anyway. And the one other thing that Curly is also facing is the New York, headed the New York State Athletic Commission is a gentleman by the name of William Muldoon, who was the undisputed world heavyweight champion in wrestling, Greco Roman from 1880 to 1889. He despises Curly and he's the head of the commission. So every time he gets a chance to stick his thumb in his eye, he does it. He bans a bunch of wrestling holds in 1922 or three,

just to make the product more boring because he's wanting to get back at Curly. Right. Really? Yes. Just specifically in order to make it more boring? Yes. Just like, wow.

So he takes the top holds. A headlock is not even a legitimate hold, which William Muldoon would know, but Ed Strangler Lewis did. So he bans Ed. He bans the body scissor, Joe Steckers, number one. And it got knocked down because there was an Olympian who was also a professional wrestler for a while,

and you probably saw him in a bunch of movies in the 1930s by the name of Nat the Panther Pendleton. He was a collegiate champion, he was an Olympic wrestler that should have been the gold medalist and catch silver and the bronze he got in Brickle Roman and that was, there was nothing. But the decision that went against him, everybody that knew anything in wrestling that had saw that said that he should have been the gold, not the silver in the 1920 Olympics he came into pro wrestling for a few years before he transitioned into Hollywood and he spoke against it and

had they not had somebody of his character right because it's not easy it would be very easy to silence Jack Curly right you're crooked everybody knows it no that we don't care what you think about this but when Nat the Panther Pendleton spoke against it they removed that like three or four months very quietly, right? It'd make a big deal, but but they removed it But that's the kind of things that Muldoon would do just to get Just wow. Yeah, just so so what people complain about about NFL regulations that are actually designed to make things safer Like, you know, it's it's making it's making the game less interesting

Yeah, literally that was his whole goal right was like just just to fuck that guy in particular. Yep Okay, all right. Yeah, Jack. Jack Curly inspired that kind of feeling people Just to give you an idea. I can see why Feeling people now just to give you an idea. Let's see why They give you an idea of the gravitas that Muldoon carried Ed. Yeah, Muldoon had trained John L. Sullivan the the the boxer With the for the the bare knuckle guy. I think he's like the last big bare knuckle boxer like yeah He is he's the one that transitioned from bare knuckle the glove contest. He lost to gentleman Jim Corbett in the glove competition. But he fought, you're talking about the kill rain fight, Jake kill rain fight.

Yes. He trained him for, and Louis, or Sullivan said, if Muldoon had not trained him for it, he would have lost that fight. He was in such terrible condition. Yeah. Oh wow. All right. So this is a guy who is very well respected in in all sports stuff and he's the

Athletics Commissioner in New York and and yeah, he's making it really hard for For wrestlers to do anything that might draw a nickel. So wow. All right, damn So All right. Damn. So you've got the and the Goldust Crito is very financially successful during this time period of 1922 to 1925. But Billy Sandow starts worrying that you know people are gonna get tired of Ed as the world champion and we're gonna have to put the belt on somebody else. Right. And he sees this picture in the newspaper of this college football player that's getting ready to graduate. And he's like, Oh my goodness. Cause he,

again, he's six foot five, six foot six, two 30, two 60 when, you know, the average person probably five, six or five seven. This is somebody that really stands out. He sees dollar signs and starts recruiting Munn to come into wrestling. Yeah. Mont and Lewis are both against it because they say he doesn't have any wrestling skills. There's no way we could teach him quick enough where he could be a legitimate shooter and hooker.

So you're sending this guy out here and even, you know, someone who's not even that good could shoot on him. And I had thought before I had started researching years ago that once this happened, this double cross happened in 1925, the promoters were scared to put it on a performer because there was a debate about when Ric Flair got the NWA title in 1981, he's not going to be able to defend himself. They sent Harley race. I was going to say, yeah, the first time he went to Japan. Yeah. And Harley said, I'm there to make sure they don't

take it off of you. Right. When Jack Briscoe, who was an MCAA wrestling champion, got the title, the promoters were like, oh, now we got somebody we don't have to worry about double crosses. Right. I thought that, oh, that that changed the industry. They know if somebody can generate enough money, They will put the title on them. Yeah, and a lot of times they get double crossed, but right So with mon He sees the dollar signs and he tells him don't worry about it. I'll only put him in with our guys And we know that you know, they'll take care of him I'll make sure that this so so they prepare him for a year.

He has his first match in February of 1924. And in the first couple matches, there's two minute matches, five minute matches. Right. And at first he's using the headlock, like Ed Strangler Lewis. But then they realize, well, you know what? If he's gonna take the title from Ed,

this is gonna look kind of funny with all this headlock fest that we're gonna have in this match So they start teaching him the crotch hold Which is a great move for him because he's picking people up So it shows his strength and how impressed he is and everything and he starts using that about the middle of the year so Ed Description of what we mean when we say crotch hold? You remember trains, planes, and automobiles when he... no. It's actually not that far off from that.

You're sort of like in a single leg takedown position, but both feet are on the floor Okay, and they pick them up and a lot of times they would just the person would be standing on his head Once they put him onto the mat. Yeah Okay, you just up and dump him. Yeah, okay But you're using the crotch as a leverage point right right, okay? And this is a hold everybody in wrestling would have known back there. I don't think anybody's probably seen it in 50 years,

but this was something that Frank Gotch had used in contests, so a lot of people knew what this hold was, because it was actually pretty effective in contests to put somebody on their head, and for him, it looked good just because he was strong, and he could pick something up. And they realized, okay, we're getting close to what we want to be the world title match and he's never going to match more than 10 minutes. We need to get him into a long match. So Tootsmont goes into

the ring with him in Kansas City and this is the match that's going to build up the title match between Lewis and Munn. And they go 18 minutes in the first fall and Munn defeats him. They go 12 minutes in the second fall. Munn defeats him. Munn defeats him in two straight falls. And Lewis has agreed to wrestle the winner of this match for the World Championship in January in Kansas City. Munn was a huge January in Kansas City.

Munn was a huge draw in Kansas City. So in the convention hall, they were normally drawn between 10 and 12,000 fans to Munn's matches. Even after the double cross, a year after the double cross, when he's been exposed, 12,000 fans still came out to see him wrestle Ed Strangler Lewis in a rematch a year after the double cross and after he drops the belt back to Lewis or a version of the belt back to Lewis.

So was Munn somehow tied to Kansas City? What was the reason for him being such a big draw there? Well he's from Wichita, so he's a local boy. And he played college football for Nebraska and I think it was just okay being close to there that yeah And he was a regular in Wichita, too. He's still an attraction, you know, he's still And and at this point like I mean we're talking Let's see fall guys hasn't come out yet, but like there there was already a Somebody gave away the finishes in the paper

earlier there is a layer of people Kind of winking and nodding with the kayfabe not calling it that yet by a stretch, but but starting to Treat it as the Commedia dell'arte Yeah on some level that an awareness of that and a buying into it. Yeah, like what Barthes would have pointed out. The other thing is that there would be other matches on the cards. So yes, he's the attraction and yeah, I'll come around and I'll see what he's like. But also, these other other guys they really go

And it's kind of you know, I don't like to mention Chris Benoit very much because of what he did To his family, but a lot of people would watch his matches and they'd be like, oh, no, no this other stuff This is this is as Pat Patterson would have called it Gaga But that guy does something real and it's just like that like no he doesn't But But that's the thing is like you can like kind of trick yourself into that It's one of the reasons that you see W got so popular because it's like well There's no way to fake to getting hit by a kayak

You know or an arena full of them, right? There was only one but yeah, you know, so you can't fake a cheese grater, you know Jesus Christ Yeah, yeah But but yeah, so one of the reasons that Munn is a moneymaker to begin with is that he's an attraction again He is head and shoulders above people like physically. Yeah So to use a modern analogy Hulk Hogan versus Andre the giant at WrestleMania 3

Through that huge crowd, but the best match on that card was Randy Macho Man Savage versus Ricky Steamboat Oh, I thought you were gonna say the Can-Am connection against Don Morocco and cowboy Bob Orton, okay fine agree to disagree Hogan and Andre was probably one of the worst matches on the card it really that was the attraction, right? Yeah, they had built it so well. Yeah, Andre was undefeatable. No, he wasn't but right everybody just it so well. Andre was undefeatable. No, he wasn't. But right. Everybody just acted like it's undefended. Yes, plenty had. Yeah, plenty had. They'd never met. They met plenty of times. Yeah. Like, but it was it was, you know, driven in such

a way that and and remember Andre at this point is is hurt. You can see the the back brace under his singlet. He is probably six sheets to the wind to just to get out there because of the self medication aspects Yeah, and if you watch the match he is staying near the ropes. He's slow to get up He does I mean Hogan does an incredible job of selling for him. Yeah, Hogan always sold. Well, I always thought But I also always thought he wrestled like a heel and somehow got away with it But I also always thought he wrestled like a heel and somehow got away with it but But like that match was the huge attraction because Hogan had the the the ketchup and mustard colors. He had been on SNL

He had been on Sports Illustrated and Andre was literally larger than life for the older fans He was the attraction that they kept fresh by never letting him stay in a territory and for younger fans he was He was in a movie. He was you know, this huge huge man. So but yeah, that was the attraction Ricky versus Randy was a far better match a far far better match Which is I think what it sucked being the killer bees that night because I think they had to follow it Yeah, by the way, and I put in the chat what a crotch hold looks like. Yeah, I checked it out. Yeah. Yeah, okay So, yeah, so yeah mon was an attraction. He was I would say he was similar to like the great Kali Yes

Those are all good comparisons. Somebody that you look at and you're like, oh wow. And then you see him and you're like, oh okay. Yeah. Or somebody else will dance around him and make him look really good. Yeah. Bounce off. Yeah. So. And so Munn takes the title in January of 1925 But it's kind of a controversial match and they kind of left that out there because they knew at some point They would put it back on Lewis because the longer Munn held it the more chances you were taken on the double cross right, so so Lewis took the first fall

So, Lewis took the first fall. No, Mun took the first fall. Mun took it, yeah. Mun took the first fall, and then Mun lifted him up with the crotchhold during the second fall and Lewis kind of fell out of the ring. Which this was a thing that he and Mont and Pesek all did a lot. They would fall out of the ring and then they would be unable to continue. So that would give them some kind of deniability for the, no, I just fell out of the ring and then they would be unable to continue. Right. So that would give them some kind of deniability for the, no I just fell out of the ring and got hurt. I'll beat you the next time around.

And people want to pay the tickets. Oh they're going to keep it in the ring this time. Yep. Yep. Okay. Right. So Sandow, as part of what they had already predetermined, comes out and screams that Munn should be disqualified. And at first the referee says, no, it was an accident. And he says, no, he did it on purpose.

And finally the referee says, all right, we'll keep this match going. I'll disqualify him. It's one fall apiece, but we gotta keep going. Lewis gets back in his pen within 50 seconds because he is dazed and too injured to continue. See, now, Ed, when I say wrestling has always been that way.

Yeah. Because think how well that protects the best shooter and the best hooker in the business. Yeah. And how it makes believable Munn's victory. Like, he caught him lucky the first time. The second time led to the third time. Like, you could have Lewis going out cutting promos until their next match.

Oh, until King Kong. Yeah. And that also sets up other matches for Lewis because other people who will lose to Munn will be like, yeah But I didn't lose in the time that he lost and so when Lewis gets the title back Oh, what were you saying now, you know, and and you could absolutely just I mean, that's that's how you generate money Yeah, you know, it's it's having Randy beat Seth and then have Seth come out and beat Roman and Brock now Randy has a legit claim on the time You know, it's kind of like having Owen beat Brett

At the beginning of WrestleMania 10 and then Brett gets the title at the end Yeah, guess who has a legit win over over Brett Yeah, so there's multiple ways to take it. There's a lot of heater feuds that you can set up this way And this unexpectedly also helped them after the double cross. Yeah that this setup did Okay, but they put so muns got the title Well, Lewis is getting ready to leave for a tour of Europe, right? And so now they're really worried and all of the challenges start coming out of the woodwork And so now they're really worried and all of the challenges start coming out of the woodwork and Billy Sandow's like well you guys haven't proved anything yet so if you you can beat Tootsmont or John the Nebraska Tiger Man Pesek right you can wrestle one

which neither one of those are very appealing options if you know those two guys right so cuz they'll hurt you yes they weren't you bad but he knows he also has to have some challengers for Munn so even though Lewis despised Vladek Zabisco even though they kept Vladek Zabisco and Joe Stecker out of the title picture during this whole thing there is a great deal of respect and admiration for Stanislav Zabisco who has been willing to work with them and has continued to work with Lewis. The three year title reign, his most consistent,

high profile matches were with Stanislav Zabisco. They drew the best and he always worked with Lewis. And Billy Sandow approaches him because he trusts Stanislaus and Stanislaus says I'll be happy to help you put the kid over and establish him as the champion. And they... Stanislaus during those matches with Lewis never showed any kind of reluctance or any unwillingness or any like well we'll see what happens. Like, no, he was always above board on being crooked. Like, he was always, you know, he was trustworthy.

He absolutely was reliable to them all. And because again, him and Lewis, if they got into a shoot, it is, you know, 59, you know 59 you know 51 49 you know yeah um and so Some of that you could also see is like he might have underestimated his own ability against Lewis because he recognized his own age Some of it might be I'm making money this way and I don't Why why do I need to bite off more than I can chew right? Yeah, because if I fail Yeah, exactly so so yeah

There's a lot of reasons why they're starting to trust him despite hating Vladek Because and again he and Vladek they didn't always end up on the same card They didn't really seem to socialize in the same circles that often. I mean they still, they were still brothers and there was, there was a couple times where they were, they were very cordial with each other because they're brothers. Yeah, they lived together in New York when he first came to New York. Right. And at the end of their lives they lived together because Stanislaw's wife had passed away and he lived with Vladek and his wife and st. Joseph I actually have their death certificates because they died in Missouri. That's all online

So I've got them George Trago's now because that's just a wealth of information. Oh, you know, that's when I found Stanislaus Obisko's birthday and most public records is probably wrong Because I figured that his brother would probably know his birthdate.date yeah and he has there is April 1st 1880 not 1879 which is what a lot of the records had said was that it was 1879 okay yeah and interesting yeah Stanislaus and his death certificate is Stanislaus C. Zbyskow. But Vladek is Vladek Zdewicz, which was their real actual last name. I was gonna say because Zbyskow, Ed you might remember this, Zbyskow is the name of a Polish knight in a children's story that they both took the name from. That they took. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. So yeah. But anyway, back to Zbyskow. And so in February of 1925 they have the first match between Zabisco and Munn.

And Zabisco puts him over in two straight falls. Yeah. He doesn't even worry about winning a fall. He puts him over in two straight falls. Yeah. And this is only a month after Munn has got the title now. Yeah. Okay.

So Munn has a few more title offenses with other opponents and Billy Sandow trusts Stanislaus Sibycko so much he books him to wrestle Munn in Philadelphia on April 15th. 15th of the 17th of 1925. Yeah, I think it was the 15th. Yeah, it's the 15th April 15th 1925 In a card that yeah in Philadelphia on a card that Billy Sandow Ed Lewis and putzmont are not gonna be yet Right because that's how much they trust him. Yeah, Billy Sandow's younger brother is the one that's actually handling the card that night And he's managing John the Nebraska Tiger man Pesach Who was the only hooker that was on the card that night and who did not get involved in that match. But that's how much they trusted him. The three of them were not even there that night.

So now you have the perfect recipe. If there's going to be a double cross, this is the time to double cross them. Because Lewis and Mont aren't in the building and you don't have anybody other there than Max Bowman. And so now when I started researching this now Bowman is sand out of Sandow's younger brother. Their last their real last name is Bowman. Bowman. Yeah. Billy Sandow's William Bowman or Wilhelm Bowman. But Wilhelm. Yeah. He he took the name of Sandow because he admired Eugene

Sandow the strong man from the 18s. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, okay And then I say wrestling has always been this way And so He goes to philadelphia before I started researching this all the sources online said That zabisco shot on him and pinned him repeatedly where the referee that worked for the Goldust trio? finally had to count the falls

That's that's not what happened at all. I'm gonna say that that is slightly reminiscent of the popular account of the gotch Hackenschmidt Where please don't break my leg then you have to lay down gotch hackenschmidt Where please don't break my leg then you have to lay down Yes, and people I think that guy's name was smith, uh, but people said that uh ed smith the sporting editor for the chicago american Right. He should have never been the referee for those matches He wrote a book in 1913 about professional wrestling and it was a love letter to frank gotch

Right, and he is the referee for those matches should have never been Yeah But yeah But but it it echoes, you know So one of the it's easy to imagine that somebody so skilled as Stanislaus Tabisco would just make it undeniable and a referee we've seen referees do this before And so that becomes the popular uh the popular trope or the popular tale of what happened but it was not that yeah no it wasn't that because the

referee was scared of a riot and that's what happened a lot back then is they were scared to let people see what was going on right because there were numerous riots there was not a riot at that second gotch hackage mint man right those fans were numerous riots. There was not a riot at that second gotch hackagement man. Right. Those fans were furious because they thought it was a work. He flipped over onto his back to give the fall up and they were like, oh, this is a work. Yeah, he dove. We were hoodwinked. Right. Yeah. Well, and because remember all of the betting had been called off and yet then a bunch of betters went in and then Ed Smith I think he said no more betting. Yep, which that's a signal that it's a work

Because you know, it's like okay. Okay. Here we go You know and and so I think was that the match where all the seat cushions started getting tossed or yes Yeah, it was the second gotch hackenship yeah yeah they thought they had been hoodwinked right and there was a hundred thousand people there too it was kamiski it was yeah yeah or no it was a hundred thousand dollar gate it was yeah it was 34 000 people they never drew that size crowd in the united states again until a lot are to Londas versus Lewis right in Chicago again. Yeah, 1934 Yeah, oh wow Chicago's that that interesting town for that kind of stuff and and again Londas is Greek So you have you know hamlets in yeah, go ahead so so talking about this this match in in Philadelphia

It occurs to me since you're talking about you know the character of Chicago Wrestling has always been this way Philadelphia has always been So so they they were they were not yet of course throwing batteries, but no no but but But was the character of Philadelphia fans known to be that way you know that that level of Vagelist yeah Yeah, yeah, was that was that a thing yet or Can I defer to you? Every was definitely afraid that there going to be a riot if he did not count the fall.

Okay. Yeah. And I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan because we haven't had a team for a few years and we lost a team in the 80s as well. And that's known as the roughest crowd in professional football. And I think it probably was the same back then because that referee was scared to death he worked for the Goldust trio right knew what was going on but was scared to death not to make that count well so fun fun thing I think I brought this up a few times they have a court of law in the basement yes Eagle Stadium yes that's how bad it was.

And another thing, I'm trying to find the date on it, but it had to have been during prohibition so it might have been during this time actually. The police department of Philly needed to kind of be cleaned out. And guess who became the director of public safety in 1924 ed Shit in Philadelphia Smedley Butler Shit dead ass Smedley got the butler Smedley butler is one of the like there's a count

There's a Mount Rushmore that we've not officially codified but Smedley Butler's on there maybe twice Potentially yeah, but Smedley Butler was the the essentially the chief of police after all was said and done like a functionally And he rooted out the corruption there. It took Smedley. God damn but the old gimlet I himself Yes, so when I say Philadelphia has always been this way, I guess yes Holy shit. Yeah, all right So, okay I mean Smetly Butler like instituted like over almost a thousand raids on speakeasies within day two of becoming the Yeah, what? Yeah, gee many christmas and he himself thought that it was stupid. He thought that prohibition was dumb

Yeah, but it's the law the letter of the law right and we we live in a society. We got to enforce this Yeah, yeah, and he he militarized the city in 24 25 So this fear of a riot is not unfounded. I mean he literally he sent his officers that was sawed off shotguns. He had checkpoints. I mean Philly was on like It was on a different level bro. Yeah. Yeah so anyway so what really happened at this match was Zabysko and Munn go out for the match and Munn or Zbysko immediately takes Munn down and starts working on him on the ground.

And the referee obviously knows, okay, this shouldn't be going on. I don't know what point Max Bauman is clued into what's going on but after They said that Big Wayne mon or Wayne big mon had a shock look on his face for about three minutes in So he realized okay. I'm being double-crossed here, and there's nothing I could do about it Stanislaus the best go well. It was not his day. It was a Wednesday not a Monday But um, yeah Wow, when I say harmony has always been this way

So so just out so so Zabisco just goes for it out the gate at this point. Yes Thanks, and thanks him down. Yeah turns him over it takes him a few minutes to turn him over cuz it's a big guy Big dude, he doesn't know anything, but he's a big guy So he's turtling the best that he can right but Zabisco gets him turned over eight minutes pins him for the first fall Yeah, oh shit minutes pins him for the first fall. Yeah. Oh shit. Mun rolls out of the ring and immediately goes back to the dressing room probably going, help what am I supposed to do here? What the fuck? What do I do? Maybe I can ask Pesek something real quick. Hey Pesek, teach me. Now just to clarify for you Ed, it was not uncommon for

between falls to go back to the dressing room for five to fifteen minutes sometimes more all right, but So him going out is not is not him just taking a powder Okay, I do love the idea because and and Ken you and I have grown up watching wrestling our whole lives. Do you remember when? Vince was supposed to wrestle stone-co in the back they're like you've got Gerald Briscoe and Pat Patterson teaching Vince a wrestling hold like okay when he goes for the stunner you grab his leg and you go right there and you hook it and and Gerald Briscoe is is legitimately one of the scariest hookers on all levels, because they had an evening gown match once,

but he's legit one of the scariest hookers in the business to the point where he's in his 70s and somebody was looking behind himself at Gerald and Gerald was just like, if I wanted to hook you, I would have hooked you. But Gerald Briscoe is teaching him, teaching Vince, it's hilarious. It's as they're going to commercial, it's so brilliant because like they're just, and

Vince is looking like he's just filling with this confidence of I figured out how to beat the stunner. And this, that had that same vibe of just like running to the back, Pesek, Pesek, what do you got? What do I do? Yeah. That's nice. Pesach what do you got? Yeah, I do. Yeah I'm just picturing the the look on Munn's face being kind of like My orange cat when he gets when he gets jumped on by our other cat and he's just like I know how I got here

I Help I think you know Yeah So I have no idea what to do now so good I Help I think you know Yeah I have no idea what to do now so good So so while he's in the back Max Baumann comes out to the ring Stanislaus Obisco does not leave the ring which is unusual they would go back to the dressing room for that intermission right and He's standing in the ring and Baumann's trying to talk to him and he's ignoring him total not engaged with him at all

Yeah, a couple of the wrestlers not passing passing never got involved But a couple of the wrestlers come out and try to talk to him, too And he just says shakes his head no Adam and just is ignoring him. Yeah, and I want to pin in the Pescik thing because I want to come back to ask you about Pesek. So yeah, someone remind me. But yeah, go ahead. And so he later on they said, well, Munn had a hundred and four degree fever. That's why he couldn't perform tonight.

And they were trying to convince Zabisco to wrestle him a different night when he was recovered. And that's what Zabisco was saying no to The ringside doctor kind of put it he's like well he had a mild case of tonsillitis But he didn't have a fever and he passed the test so right That's funny by the way. I would point out that Philadelphia ringside doctors also have a history of being really bad for wrestlers That's the Zahorian connection for you. He's out of, I think he was out of Hershey, but still. Yeah. Yeah. And so Munn comes back out, well, whether it was fear or he just knew that he couldn't stand up to him two minutes. Right. Matches over. Stanislaus, the Bisco is the winner.

And you know, this was a bit of a conspiracy because here comes 20 Philadelphia police officers to escort Stanislaus, the Bisco back to the dressing room because the Bisco and the conspirators were legitimately concerned that someone would try to kill him. Yeah. Wow. This is a dirty business. It always has been yeah, so so was there was there Gambling that he was getting a cut of or was this just I can I can do this

like Okay, they paid him yeah, cuz he's taking the belt you remember who who was pissed off at the Gold Dust Trio for years Stetcher Which I think that's who he drops the belt to right? He does he does it Joe Stetcher. Yeah But you know Stetcher's there like Curly There's there's a lot of people with the grievance against the Gold Dust Trio. Yeah Okay, and so who we know was involved for sure, the Stecker brothers, I'm sorry, the Stetcher brothers, the Zabisco brothers,

and Jack Curley. We also believe Paul Bowser was involved. That makes sense. And there's always been some belief that Tom Pax might've had a hand in it. The St. Louis promoter because Stecker and Zabisco had the match in St. Louis, but if he was involved, Sandow and them kind of dismissed that early on because when they have the match to actually reunify the title in 28, it's in St. Louis with packs as the promoter, but they couldn't have distrusted him that much because they would never wrestle in Chicago

or for Darrow or for these other places where they didn't trust the promoter. They decided to have that match in St. Louis. So if Pax was involved, it had to be tangentially and they never put much credence to that. Now did did Bowser leave Boston or did they mend fences? Because I know there was a title change before 1930 in Boston as well. Yeah, so they mended fences because Bowser tried to double cross Stecker in 26.

Oh, so the enemy of my enemy. Yep, and Sandow, they had made peace. Okay. But Bowser was also the one that was behind the double cross of Lewis with Henry de glane and he was involved and putting the belt from Sonnenberg on to Ed Don George oh which on George he's out of LA right yeah yeah I think so yeah he was a West Coaster and they didn't clear that with Lewis and Sandow who had dropped the belt to Sonnenberg

They were supposed to get the belt back That's one of the times when Lewis went into the ring He had got a match with that Don George and they thought he's gonna put him over Yeah, and Lewis got in the ring and he said well Ed we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way Yeah, and then dad George says well, you know it I could never beat you the best day I ever had so let's just wrestle and they worked the match and he put Lewis over. Yeah Yeah Hey there geek timers

This is Damien here. Just letting you know that this episode actually ran really really long and we had so much fun Recording it that I had to chop it in half so that the audio quality would hold up for you all. Anyway, this is the end of episode one, so you won't hear Ken introducing himself for the beginning of episode two and nor will you hear us plugging anything at the end of this episode, but we will do so at the end of episode two so everything should work out just fine. Sorry about that, but we were just having so much fun and you know who can tell us But we will do so at the end of episode 2 so everything should work out just fine Sorry about that, but we were just having so much fun And you know who can tell us when to stop when we don't have advertisers to to answer to anyway

Hope you enjoyed the episode see you next week, and you'll you'll hear the rousing finale of it all and my god It was fun And so like Ed says keep rolling 20s of it all and my god it was fun. And so like Ed says, keep rolling 20s.