A Geek History of Time - Episode 311 - Double Crossing the Gold Dust Trio with Ken Zimmerman jr. Part II

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

See, people when they click on this, they'll see the title, so they'll be like, poor Ed. What does that even fucking mean? However, because it's England, that's largely ignored and unstudied. I really wished for the sake of my sense of moral righteousness that I could get away with saying no. He had a goddamn ancestral home and a noble title until Germany became a republic. You know, none of this highfalutin, you know, critical role stuff. So they chewed through my favorite shit.

No, I'm not helping them. I'm going to say that you're getting into another kind of, you know, Mediterranean, or psyche archetype kind of thing. Makes sense. Also trade winds are a thing. Ha ha, just serious. Like, no, he really has a mad on him. Yeah, we'll go upon a tangent. As we keep doing.

Like, yeah, this is how we fill time. Yeah. The This is a Geek History of Time. Where we connect nursery to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. and we had a really great time with Ken's German jr. On our podcast last week and Yeah, I'm looking forward to the continuation of that. Yeah, and I'm Damian Harmony

I'm a US history teacher up here in Northern, California We had such a good time that we actually recorded almost three hours worth of content none of which can be edited so It's all crucial sorry, but instead of giving everybody a three hour like read along or Yes But instead of doing that we cut it up into two sections, so This intro is deliberately short you heard the cap that we put on the last one We will be plugging things at the end of this episode Yes, so no worries there, but we just wanted to let you know that things are a little bit different

Because we just kind of got lost in the story and really enjoyed ourselves So yeah, not a bad problem to have but but no, it's really good one to have actually as problems go. Yeah. But anyway, we hope that you enjoyed the last episode and we hope that you will enjoy the next episode where we interview Ken Zimmerman Jr. about double crossing the Gold Dust Trio professional wrestling in the 1920s and the one of the next double crosses that we see fascinating stuff So you wanted to Damien I'm bringing you around oh yes pezzic

Yeah, so and hold on yeah before before you get into that every time I hear pezzic uh-huh I can't help but think Fezzic right his arms off so anyway, so and pezzic was a use in the top four of Hookers, so that's not so all right so there you go. Yeah, um so Ken why do you think pass? It stayed out of it? He left the Goldust trio not long after that okay He also came back to them, and he tried to double cross Decker too. But he left him right after this. He was upset. Yeah. Because they put the belt on Munn. They never thought about putting the belt on

Pesek. But he was one of the ones that had to take all the challengers. So everybody came out of the woodwork because they knew Munn was a sitting duck. So we were gonna challenge him. Well Pesek was one of the ones that had to see off some of the challengers. Okay. And he was not happy about duck. So we were gonna challenge him. Well, Pesek was one of the ones that had to see off some of the challengers. And he was not happy about that. So he left within a couple of weeks, maybe a month of that. And Stecker and he always had kind of a friendly rivalry.

So Stecker actually defended the belt three times against him in 1926. In the third match, Pesek tried to double cross him. You say tried, so that tells me, and knowing that Stecker lost to Lewis. He successfully did it, but that referee wasn't scared of the riot in Los Angeles, which did occur. Okay.

And he disqualified Pesek, even though Stecker had given up to the hold. Gotcha. Okay. He wasn't afraid of the riot, even though it actually went. Right. Even though stacker had given up to the hold gotcha He wasn't afraid of the riot even though it actually went Not being riotous so it's fine and the thing with Stecker and Pesek and that one was Pesek double crossed him after Stecker let him put him in the double arm wrist lock He didn't double cross him in but like they knew this was going on. He had the hold on, he gave him his body and then he

cranked the hold and he had no choice but to give up. Right. Okay. And that's a wildly different double cross that you know and you're going to try to defend against me and I'm going to beat you. Yeah. Yeah. Which again makes sense considering who Stecker was Yeah, Munn didn't know that he was in a double cross until he got taken out He pretty quickly realized he was in a double cross Confirmed it in the locker room. Yeah Pesic worked the first two falls of that match in Los Angeles with Stecker They each traded a fall sure and then Pesek let him put that hold on him and when he put that hold on him, he cranked it.

Wow. Oh wow. That's crazy. Yeah. Now here's what's fun is that I remember I've done some looking and the first cage match I ever found was called a chicken wire match. And I think it was from 35 or 37. I wish somebody had thought about that as a gimmick prior because you have such meat on the bone here that you could absolutely, like if you could just get everybody to trust each other 5% more, you could make 25% more. you could make 25% more, you know? It just, yeah. Okay, so Stanislas has the belt. Yep, he has the belt.

He goes back to the dressing room, talks to the reporters. The police escort him to the hotel. Wow. And then the next day they escort him to the train. Wow. And he leaves. He does defend the title a few times over the next month. The weird thing about

Because this leads to the divided championship era, right? So Zabisco has the world title sure but And he only holds it for like a month and some change yes, yeah both mon and Zabisco dropped the title on the same day. Really? So what Sandow does is Sandow gets the athletic commissions of, I believe, Illinois and Michigan, not to recognize the Stecker Zabisco title change because of the controversial title change in January,

where Lewis never really lost the title. That's the story they're telling. They also use that to build the rematch with Munn and Lewis. So these matches take part place on the same day Memorial Day 1925. Okay. Lewis wrestles mon in front of 15,000 people in Michigan City, Indiana and Mon drops the title back to Lewis. Okay version of the title the title recognized in Illinois and Michigan No title recognized everywhere else disco drops to Stecker in st. Louis at st. Louis University field in front of 1300 or 13,500 fans

It was too big for the Coliseum. They had to have it Wow at the outdoor field. It's slew. Okay now I have a question So, I mean we've got a split title I Mean obviously there's money in reunifying it But there's also a total lack of trust between the different promoters. This kind of feels to me like when the AWA and I think it was Jerry Jarrett's promotion, they did a super show. Oh yeah. I think it was out in Vegas, right? I think it was. Yeah, I think it it bombed dicks because it was

They could not agree. That was the one where if I recall correctly Carrie von Eric and Jerry Lawler Went at it and they called the match for Jerry even though he was in the claw Because Carrie has been bleeding too much so badly Which a great finish because it protects Carrie it keeps the interest and it keeps the belt on the bad guy, which is absolutely the Memphis territory thing. But like it also, they could not agree who would win when they had this super card between the promoters. There was still that lack of trust in the 1980s. So I'm seeing like, oh, there could be money here, but also it's going to take a while for there to be any kind of trust. So and one of the things I forgot to say earlier was you had asked about a state of Sosibisco

got about $50,000 in 1925. So I think I put that in a calculation was $763,000 today. He got 50,000 for that match in St. Louis where he dropped the title to Stecker. That was his payoff on the double cross. And I think it was a combination of the money and I think maybe he had some angst about how his brother was treated. We'll never know because Zabisco never talked about why he did it to anybody that I know of. I would love to have heard that. Yeah.

And one other thing about Zabisco, cause I think you can find it in a lot of the streaming services. He did a movie in 1950 called Night in the City. Richard Widmark is a star. He's this kind of guy running around trying to get into the wrestling business. And he's a lot like some of the characters

we've talked about today. Little disreputable, a little on the shady side. But Stanislaus Zabisco has a match with Mike Mazzurki during this film. And it's one of the best wrestling matches, fights, whatever that they ever filmed. And Zabisco was 69 or 70 when they filmed it. Mizurki was probably in his early 40s, but Zabisco was almost 70 when he filmed that. It's really an interesting thing that happens with wrestling too is that, and we're seeing it now too,

it's just that people understand nutrition, they don't smoke, they don't drink nearly as much, but like you really become a respected draw in Pro-wrestling going back pretty far in your late 30s early 40s like I think about like Luthas was very young as a champion to begin with but like All the film that we see of him by necessity some of the film that we see of him is of course later because it survives But like a lot of the guys he's wrestling, they have their hair slicked back, and you can see there's a bald patch.

Yeah. You know, and stuff like that. It's just, and back then, you could be like 35 and look like you were 70, because life was a lot harder. But you do start to see people, like, when they really come into their own, it is exceedingly, like when Brock Lesnar or The Rock, when either of them got their first championship,

or Randy Orton, when they got their first championship, they were exceptionally young, and it was a very notable thing. Because very often people get their first championship, their first world title in their 30s, when they've been doing it for eight or nine years at least. So.

And if you look at early Brett, early Brett was not as good as Brett in 96, 97. Brett in 96, 97 is amazing, maybe one of the best that was ever in the ring. So you could see a difference in him in periods in his career, and it's the same thing for a lot of the wrestlers. Absolutely, because you could see a difference in him and periods in his career and it's the same thing for a lot of the wrestlers Absolutely, because you know how to work you you learn how to work hurt

You learn how to work you learn. Oh slow down more psychology do these things You know, I will still say that Bret's Intercontinental Matches his IC title matches were just just amazing. But you're right, he could work a broom handle by the time he was 96, 97. Whereas Intercontinental, he still had talented people also working with him. Not to take anything away from him. I mean, no, but when he was working Piper and Kurt Hennig, right, amazing. Yeah, Papa Shango, maybe not so much but then later on when he was the world champion He could have got out there with anybody and he did look like a million dollars. Yeah, he made del Wilkes look believable. Yeah, like

You know like like he made you actually care about a match with the Patriot You know, although I would would say the match he had with 1-2-3 Kid was amazing because Brett normally is either same size or smaller than a guy and this time he was bigger and he took a very different tack with it and I still love that match and it's just so amazing. Which is now on the streaming service by the way so that's kind of cool Yeah, but anyway, okay, so back to Stanislaus he's he's wrestled a couple matches

And then he drops it to stature. Yeah Mon did not wrestle anybody until he got in the ring with Lewis They weren't gonna let him wrestle anybody else until he dropped the title sure after he dropped the title He wrestles part-time for a few more years him wrestle anybody else until he dropped the title. After he dropped the title, he wrestles part-time for a few more years, usually against Lewis, because those rematches actually drew money. You would think they wouldn't after the exposure and everything, but in Kansas City, they did one match, it was like their third match in Kansas City where they had 16,000 fans. I don't know how they got that many people in the convention hall because it

wasn't supposed to hold that many. But the Kansas city times was like, we were counting them. There's that many people there. Sure. But the champions go some introductions, you know, running start. And so I'm actually researching the divided championship because this is another thing where what you hear is not what happened What you hear is right when the championship got divided that Lewis just continued defending it like he was the world champion Which was kind of true sure, but he wasn't as active as Stecker But what they say about Stecker was Stecker was so scared of double crosses

That he basically retired the title until they had that that match in 1928 to unify the title. Okay. That is not close to being true. He was actually more active than Lewis was. He did get double crossed twice. What the change for him was, so from 26 or from 25 into 26 people saw him as having the more legitimate claim to the world title. him being Stecker. Stecker. they thought Joe Stecker had the more legitimate claim to the world title. when he gets so the first double cross Paul Bowser and these are both Billy Sandow's involved in both of these. so Bowser and Sandow come back together they because these are all marriages

of convenience. right. you guys only come back together when they want to make some money together and then as soon as they have their first disagreement they're back at each other trying to double-cross each other again but this was when one of the periods where they were getting along so Bowser promises Stecker a very large purse to come and wrestle an unknown wrestler and Tony and Joe Tony Stecker is Joe's brother older brother and manager. Let me let me guess who the wrestlers the spider lady But it's it's about that it's a working Wow, okay, so They'll get there and they're very suspicious. They're like, okay, who is this? We're supposed to be wrestling. And he goes, no, no, it's just a local guy.

No big deal. And they're like, well, you're offering us, I think it was $10,000 to come and defend his title. So they go and they see a wrestler by the name of Jake Bresler, who is not a shooter, not a hooker. And they're like, Oh, okay. No big deal. Sure. They get in the ring with him. No big deal Sure get in the ring with him as soon as they get in the ring with him Joe Mausawitz who is a Hooker in a shooter. He would become the promoter in San Francisco before Roy Shire. Oh, wow Yep. Oh, so he's the one that sells the TV to Roy Shire. Yes. Okay. Okay. I was like, I knew that name. But okay. Yeah. Yeah. So he jumps into the ring wearing wrestling gear. I had always heard he jumped in there and

street clothes and stripped down to his wrestling gear. That was a different guy. That was the second guy because after you hear everything that happens here. No, no, that was the second guy. Yeah. Different. He's sitting ringside wearing the robe and the wrestling dogs. He jumps into the ring and. The Stacker Brothers did something that Paul Bowser was not expecting. They were like, no. And they get out of the ring and they head to the train station.

Oh, wow. Just say, fuck this. They're out. Right. And Bowser thinks that they're just they're trying to get more money out of him. He thinks, oh, this is a ploy. They're going back to the hotel and somebody says, no, they're headed for the train station. We just watched them run over to the train station.

And so on, man, Bowser's got to get up there and tell the people, OK, the world championship match that you paid to come see is not gonna happen, right? So he gets in the ring and he says well, you know the champion was scared of Joe here and everything but We've got an attraction for you another wrestler Jumps from the front row and street clothes gets in the ring takes his street clothes off and he's wearing row in street clothes, gets in the ring, takes his street clothes off, and he's wearing wrestling gear underneath his street clothes. So in wrestling history, the cliche is very often if you've been released from a company and then they have a show in your town, you come hang out with the guys backstage.

And then the promoter might come up to you and be like, got your gear, we got a spot, and then the promoter might come up to you be like got your gear we got a spot and then well, it's in my car and It's cuz you're going around begging for a job unless you're Pedro Morales in which case you bully your way onto a card, but but He you know that that was the thing. There was one wrestler who specifically made sure he'd leave his his gear at home So it didn't look like he was begging for a job even if he wanted one.

Because he's like, if you're going to ask for me, you're going to ask for me and we're going to sit down and we're going to figure this out long term. And that was Shelton Benjamin actually. But having your gear underneath is a whole new level. That is, oh that's great. The fans were still furious. They didn't riot thankfully, but it was close. It was touch-and-go for a little bit there Wow But this hurts the Stecker brothers as well because the papers start reporting

Well, the world champion jumped out of the ring rather than wrestle This known shooter and hooker, right and this happens in Boston But the New York State Athletic Commission actually suspends Stecker for like a month to two months and say you have to fight Joe Malkiewicz within so many days. And Stecker agrees. Okay. I'll wrestle him in New York City. Okay. Jack Curly is aligned with the Stecker brothers. Right. Right. They were smart to jump out of the ring for one reason. Yeah. I think Joe Stecker could have beat Joe Malkowitz.

The problem is the referee was Paul Bowser's referee. And if you want to double cross somebody and the wrestler cannot beat the guy that you're wanting to double cross, you fix the referee. Right. That's how it happened with DeGen and Lewis they were doing Bowser pulled this off in the 60s by fixing the referee in an AWA title match what the end it was the Minnesota AWA at that point right no it was it was still Boston okay it was either 59 or 60 mm it was I'm going to get the names wrong so I really don't want to but it was a double cross that he had fixed the referee his champion didn't want to drop the title so Bowser that's what happened with Vince on both of the double crosses he pulled

the first one in the 80s against Wendy Richter right the second one against Brett Montreal the 80s against Wendy Richter, the second one against Brett in Montreal, you fixed the referee. So they were smart to do that. They were walking into a trap. That happened in Montreal in 36 too between, what's his name, O'Mahoney, Dan O'Mahoney and Dick Chiqu Yeah. Same deal. You had the referee and that's why when it happened in in Montreal 97 in the fall of 97 it's like it's a Montreal screw-up and old timers like which one? Like goddamn. But yeah, Henry DeGlane that was in that was that was the bite, right? Yes.. Yeah He had somebody bite him back in the dressing room Right and you guys up with Lewis and then screams and jumps back and shows the referee right referee was in on it, too

The referee sure go on yeah, and it's crazy He actually he knew he couldn't beat Lewis and but he wanted to get the title off of him Yeah, so he had somebody bite him I want to say like under the arm or like in the lat and he came back with like a towel And yeah, I just kind of walk in like this And then they lock up and he starts screaming he's biting me he's biting me and then the ref is in on it marks Yeah, but you can show everybody and you know cameras and all that kind of stuff So it makes Lewis look like he's he's losing like he's losing his his moxie because you're reduced to biting people now

like it just wow I That's one that I really wanna I want to make a Episode or two about that the yeah around the world, but okay so but that was actually 31 had three screw jobs that I remember because multiples Yeah, because you had a done George like you said yeah, and Paul Bowser and Don George through Billy Sando Yeah, and you also had a

Although that was 32. I think when a lot okay No, there's a different one when my double cross Londis's and he that was a referee fix as well as Joseph oldy right Joseph oldy yeah yeah that was 33 if I recall okay yeah yeah I didn't think it was 31 yeah yeah so he was smart to jump out yeah now it makes him look bad so this is the first chink in the armor where people start saying okay well maybe Lewis is a real champion right not Stecker right and then the second one was later in 1926 mm-hmm in that match I was just talking about with Pesek where Pesek cranks the arm bar people see him give up as a matter of fact I've only found this in one so I'm hesitant to say

yeah this is exactly what happened but in one of the accounts of the match, supposedly Stecker was either weeping in the corner or just unconsolable after the match. And but the referee first, it looked like because he patted Pesek on the back, which is normally the signal of Pesek one. Right. Pesach on the back, which is normally the signal that Pesach one. Right. But then they, they announced that the, uh, that he had choked him, which

would be really hard to see how you could choke somebody when you're putting them in a double arm wrist lock, but that he had done an illegal choke to get to that position. And so he was disqualified. Right. And that was another one where the police had to escort him back to the dressing room, seat cushions were being thrown. Seat cushions were a big thing to be thrown in the 20s and 30s when fans were not happy. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like it. It's several times that gets mentioned. Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird cultural touchstone for like when you are

Yeah, it's a weird cultural touchstone for like when you are an audience member at a combat sport To show your distaste you throw the thing at the end. Yeah Yeah, yeah in in Puerto Rican wrestling it's you throw burned quarter and the wrestlers We burned what burned quarters like you heat them up, Okay, and then you throw them with the wrestlers That's why you had so many cowboy wrestlers in the 70s going through With their cowboy hats and their ponchos Okay, because it would protect them from from like bottle caps that had been heated and shit like that like it's a legit thing

There were rust fans. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like, you gotta... Damn. Yeah. Alright. So in Tulsa, it was so bad in the 80s in Mid-South, that they built like this cattle chute with a wood roof on it and chicken wire. Right.

And that's how the heels would come out. Yeah. To protect them from the people trying to kill them on their way to the ring. Yeah. Remember, Freddie Blassie got stabbed and had acid thrown at him, which means you had to, you didn't just go to the acid fountain, like you had to go and get acid, bring it in. That was a truly premeditated, yeah. Yeah.

So. Multiple steps involved in that which is wild because at that time there had already been the reports that it's a work yeah there had already been a revealing of this commedia dell'arte and yet people were still so invested yeah and it was weird because Jim Cornett it's talked about a couple incidents he knew about in Memphis and I'd seen it in st. Louis. Louis didn't do very much heat. It was one of the straightest promotions yeah, Sam much Nick did not like riots and and all of that going on and Most of the fans knew what we were seeing was not

There was funny stuff going on right, but people would get so into it suspending their belief That you would have people throw a punch at a wrestler or something that knew, well, what I'm seeing is not really a contest, but they had got so caught up into it. Right. They would try to attack some of the heels sometimes, but the ones that were really scary were the true believers. Yeah. Because they believed everything that they were seeing was real. Right. And those were the ones you had to keep the eye on. That's how they fanned it for wrestlers.

Yeah, I mean, one of the strategies in Memphis, Ed, was to find yourself a rat, which is a reasonably attractive talent. Which, it's groupie for wrestlers. And the reason you found one, it was twofold. One, the payoffs were so low that you needed someone to cover gas To if you had a rat bring you they wouldn't burn your car Wow

Yeah, damn We've the last riot I heard about was Shawn Michaels in Arkansas During the beginning of the attitude era That was kind of the last one. I really heard about he got mad about something that happened Yeah, and he refused to go on and left and when he did that that's caused the riot and he even told him He's like you just lost your main event. Yeah Shit, yeah, and he it was one of those few times where like he had a legitimate grievance and also, he was and he was in a really bad place like he was a

phenomenal worker who Was trying to die beyond that like it was yeah. Yeah, so Okay, so uh, i've Taken us off track a hundred ways Um, I think we were in boston. Yeah. Yeah, so These are the chinks in the armor now where people are starting to question it sure but Stucker is still active. He doesn't wrestle for like a month almost two months after that because his arm was hurt when Pesic cranked it. But then

he comes back and he defends it all through 1927. But the crowds were good in 25 and 26 but in 27 they do start to dip and the confusion of a world title is starting to affect both promotions so now we've got the reason that we're gonna come back together because Lewis originally was the one that wanted to get in the ring right away. Right. Stecker said, absolutely not. You made me wait all these years. You're going to wait, right.

Which is a legit grievance. Yes. He definitely had a legitimate grievance because you could understand the angst against Floddick Zabisco because there was a lot of personal animosity between two of them. Lots of fights in that. Right. With Stecker is just that, Hey, we were the top two guys and I won, but I'm still mad at you and I'm not going to let you have a world title shot.

Yeah. I'm not going to put you, I appreciate that. I wouldn't do the same for you. Yeah. Yeah. Very Sean and Brad. Yep. Yeah.

Professional wrestling has always been this way. And yeah, that takes us to what? 28? Yes. So in 27 now the roles reverse stacker because there's chinks in the armor. Now he wants the match and Lewis is putting him off. But finally financial reasons they need to come together. Sure. This 1928 match is still super controversial because no historians can agree on this. Some think it was a work. Some think it was a shoot. Luther says in his book, hooker, it absolutely 100% was a work.

Okay. Joseph toots, Mont till the day he died. Now take what toots says with this is toot saying it, right? But he said to the day he died, was a shoot that that was a legitimate contest, right? And I think the first fall was a legitimate contest and do you think they agreed? I think they agreed at the end of that first fall and I'll tell you why I Okay, do that conclusion real quick though. Um, I would I would point out Lou Fez in his book Was was the book called shooter

Hooker hooker. Okay, cuz this is one of the last hookers right now luth as Absolutely a legend but in his book he claims that add Santel Hurt Hackenschmidt and I still don't I so what I think happened there Yeah, I do not believe that Santel hurting and I don't believe that Frank Gotch would have paid five grand right of his purse to injure somebody that he had easily beaten in 1908. Right. And Hackenschmidt had had three matches in the United States. One was the Biscoe. Right. One with Harry Ordman. One with Jess Westergaard. Ordman and Westergaard

are gotcha straining partners Gotch already knew that Hackenschmidt was not the Hackenschmidt He was even two years before had been so badly degraded since I want to say since oh six Yes, he never got over the knee injury That's why right the middle clank was trying to get him back for matches Three years before he finally Agreed in 1911 to come right But I think that Ernst might have been the spy in the camp because gotch knew going into that match That hack and Schmidt had been hurt in camp right and he even alluded to the newspapers

Well, I kind of had an inkling that right injury going in there well and there's there's more to corroborate that too because midway through the traveling of the camp, Ernst was kicked out. Yep, at the end Ernst got kicked out a few weeks before that match, but he had been in the camp prior to that training with them.

Right, right, I think he got kicked out, oh, I don't remember the city he was in when they got kicked out, but like he stops being in the paper with the rest of the camp being listed. Every time the camp is listed, they listed everybody, and then suddenly it stopped listing Ernst. Now there's also-

And it's one of the reasons- Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say there's also the... So Santel, who by the way, had a absolute phenomenal career and fascinating when he wrestled, he's one of the ones that wrestled the Judo guys who by the way had a absolute phenomenal career and Fascinating when he wrestled he's one of the ones that wrestled the judo guys. Yeah at the White House Ed. Yeah For Teddy Roosevelt, right? Yeah, and Santel Ernst he

He was said to have told Fez this and that's you know, that's you know, I heard it from him to have told Fez this and that's you know, that's you know, I heard it from him But also there was some like one of the things that made me go. I'm not a hundred percent sure that you know that this source is wrong because there were some speculation that Hackenschmidt's guys made sure not to disclose That Ernst had hurt him so as to deny him the 5,000 payoff because he

never got paid for it. Well, that's one possibility. The other possibility is because he wasn't going to get paid to do such a thing so he did not do such a thing. Yeah. So, but anyway, so I just, you know, Hooker is a really good book but it also you got to take it with maybe not a salt lick But you know a good keys and Charlie also said because some people pointed out There was a couple things in there that were not factually correct, right? But he was using the fall guys to refresh his memory a lot when he was writing that yeah, so and I Just chalk it up to his his memory was not you know I mean this Lewis is telling him all of this stuff in the 40s and 50s and now he's writing the book in the 90s

I think yeah, you know, that's a long time between when your mentor was telling you these things Oh, absolutely. And if you've heard these stories for so long anyway, if it's part of the you know, the original thing By September 4th Ernst was off the off the team. Yeah, it's just just looking it up. Yeah, but anyway back to what you're saying though. So in the first fall they wrestled almost two hours and if you saw the pictures of these guys after that match I've read all three accounts the post-dispatch the globe Democrat and the star times because all three St. Louis newspapers covered that match. I've read all three accounts the Post-Dispatch, the Globe Democrat, the Star Times, because all three St. Louis newspapers covered that match. They look like they're about ready to die. I mean, beat red, wore out, but that first fall

went almost two hours and there's a point, I believe it was the Post-Dispatch reporter said, Stecker leans over and starts talking to Lewis and then Lewis pins Stecker. They go back into the back. The intermission in St. Louis was normally 10 minutes. They were gone for over 20 minutes in the back. And I think they were negotiating the end of this match because they come back out for the second fall. Stecker gets that fall in under a minute.

The second. Wow. Holy cow. They go back again and they come back out and Lewis takes the next fall in like 20 minutes or so. Sure. Seven, 17 I think was the exact, but he never goes for a headlock. He never puts himself in a position to be double crossed. So he still didn't completely trust him right kept his feet back never used the headlock or anything but that was the only offense Decker got in that whole match was that quick pin for the second fall oh

wow then they come out for the third fall and Lewis really dominated that and won the match and then that reunifies the title under Lewis right Wow That's my humble opinion is I think it started as a shoot but ended as a work I think that they worked it out after stacker knew that he couldn't be Lewis And that's that's interesting because that goes against the grain for almost every Time you see a work in a shoot in a match because they'll usually work themselves into a shoot. Yep. And somebody gets pissed off and yeah.

Yeah. Or somebody's like, you know what? Yeah, I'm gonna take this, you know? Yeah. But this went the other way. Wow. Yeah and then so that's early 28 and then the, so it's now unified. yeah and Stecker's pretty

much out of the world title picture from that he still is an active wrestler until 1934 unfortunately Joe Stecker story is kind of sad and he got built by some investment people they had an investment but that investment was fraudulent and They ripped off Stecker of his life savings. So this is around 31 or 32 And I think he had his first nervous breakdown then sure but he wrestles very actively 32 33 34 trying to get this money back sure but in 34 he has a documented he has a nervous breakdown and he goes back to Dodge, Nebraska and he and his wife are

still living together for like a year in early 35 he has a second breakdown and by this time Tony Stecker is the promoter in Minnesota. Joe ends up at a mental health facility in Minnesota and he spends the rest of his life from 1935 to 1974 in that facility. When he passes 74 he goes and he's buried in California with his wife and his daughter. Okay. but one of the reasons I think that Stecker's story was never refuted is you had Tony Stecker around that could refute it, but Tony only lived in 1953 Okay, Joe lived at 74, but he was in a mental care facility He couldn't defend himself, but something's amazing about Stecker. I told you he's one of the top four of this era. Right. Luthes writes about in his book that he and three other wrestlers

were wrestling for Tony Stecker and this is either in 36 or 37. Joe is 42 and he's not trained in two to three years and Luthes who is already a very good wrestler and these three other wrestlers go up there and Joe Stecker beat him like three times each within like 15 or 20 minutes. And Thes is like, we couldn't even touch him. And he was 42 and hadn't trained or wrestled in three years. Wow. Damn. That's now interesting that he ends up in Minnesota in a care facility.

I would imagine that Minnesota care facilities have to have an old wrestler training because if you remember, Vernganya ended up. And he, so Ed, just so you know, Vernganya, he never got the championship. He was always a little light. Him and Luthaz were like A and B, right? Bernd Gani was this amazing worker. He started the AWA. And he was, I think he was on the Olympic team?

He was on the Olympic team, but they didn't let him wrestle because they were afraid that they couldn't compete. But he was an NCAA champion. At least one year, maybe two. Yeah, and he's kind of the reason that wrestling, well one of the reasons that wrestling is such a big thing in Minnesota to this day. But Vern Gagne, you know in his own promotion he ended up I think a 10-time champion up to and including

when he was I mean just balled all the way around. He's early 50s. He had one more run. He beat Bonkwinkle in 81. Yeah. And I remember seeing him and his son, Greg Gagne, right? But Vern ended up in a care facility in I think the 90s. And because he is so good at wrestling, you can imagine what might happen with somebody with dementia who gets aggressive when they're an elder. Luckily, usually most of them don't have much muscle mass anymore and they don't have the coordination. But that was so ingrained in him that he did some serious harm to a couple of the patients there.

Oh, wow. And now to find that Joe Stecker also ends up in the same place. It's like, guys, maybe you should set up a protocol. Like, you really have the wrestlers like Ward and have guys who are able to defend themselves because, you know, again, Gerald Brisco was a scary shooter, a scary hooker in his 70s, you know, in the early 2000s.

So, yeah, that's... There are guys that are still very good, even at an advanced age. You wouldn't want to mess with Zabisco when he was in his 40s or 50s, the average wrestler. There were a handful of guys that could have hung with him, but the average person was not gonna do well against Stanislaw Zabisco if you shot with him.

Right. So, okay, so that's Stecker's ending. How is Lewis's ending and how is Zabisco's ending? Or the other guys too, I guess? Yeah, Lewis continued wrestling and he was the world champion a couple more times. So I told you guys about that match with Londis and Lewis in 34 and I always told you that Londis was scared to death of Lewis. Londis and Lewis in 34 and I always told you that Londis was scared to death of Lewis. Right. Londis would not get in the ring with Lewis in Chicago until Lewis put up $50,000 to say he would not shoot on Lyas. That's good marketability if you're Lewis, man.

Yeah. That's fantastic. Now Lewis in 1914, they said as early as 1914, he would have to post a guarantee for certain matches that he would not shoot on the guys Because they knew they couldn't beat him even that early. He was not he couldn't beat Stecker yet He couldn't beat everybody but there were guys who would go in with and they're like you're gonna have to put up a forfeit So if you shoot on this guy We're gonna we're gonna keep the forfeit Wow That's oh, yeah If you shoot on this guy, we're gonna keep the forfeit. Wow. Oh wow. Damn. All right, so that's Lewis.

How about Sandow and Mont? I think one of them died shortly thereafter, right? Actually, Mun died in 1931. Oh, Mun died. He had Breit's disease. He died, he was only 34 years old when he died in 31. It's a disease of the kidneys, I believe. Okay. But he died in 31? Disease of the kidneys I believe okay

but He died in 31 Sandow and Lewis broke up in the early 30s So the Goldust trio which many people believe they actually got that name From to its Mont in the fall guys that they didn't actually call those guys that during that time sure not later on that they didn't actually call those guys that during that time. Sure. Not later on going that, but it was the Billy Sandow group and it was Billy Sandow. It was Ed Strangler Lewis and it was Joseph Tutsmont. Mott held a grudge with Sandow ever since the double cross with Subisco

because he had argued with him that that was going to happen and he would have actually left Sandow's promotion But he was training Lewis for the eventual match with Stecker and that's why it Mont stayed with Lewis They remain friends for the remainder of their life They would come together and work together occasionally because Lewis wrestled a couple of Contests for Mont's group in the 30s. One against Ray Steele and his last one I believe was against John Evko. No, no, Lee Wyckoff. Lee Wyckoff was his very last legitimate contest. Okay. But Lewis held the world title two more times after that, but for the most, he was now putting over younger talent.

In 1931, Lewis is 40 years old. So he's getting older, and he's starting to put over the younger guys. He puts over Londis in 34. He puts over Jim Browning, who they put the title on after Sovoldi, the Sovoldi double cross of Londis. Yeah, Londis was a good enough hooker Savolde was not fully was a college football player right London's could have hooked Savolde so they're like we got to put this on a wrestler they put it on Jim Browning who most people don't he died

when he was 36 so a lot of people never heard of him right but he was a very capable wrestler and one of the nationally known guys at that time so they put the title on him and Lewis put him over to establish him but Browning they put it on him because they knew Londis couldn't beat Browning unless they agreed to the work okay but that's what Lewis is primarily putting guys over rustles a few contests for primarily Mont and Billy Sandow and Lewis actually have a falling out in 1931 over a match with John the Nebraska

Tiger Man Pesek. Oh wow. They're getting ready to go out and wrestle Pesek and Lewis is supposed to go over in this match but Pesek comes back and takes a look at Lewis who just got back from Europe. Oh, right. He's overweight. He's out of shape. And Pesek, it's like, I can't lose to you. You look terrible, Ed. Right. And he's like, okay, we're going to wrestle tonight. And Sandow was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he's going to beat you. He's going to beat you. I don't know why he said I didn't have more faith in Lewis, but he was the always one saying no, no, no. Right. And Lewis said, no, I'm wrestling him. And Santa said, fine, do what the hell you want. Went out, slammed the door. And that was the end of their partnership

that had gone on from like 1915 in Kentucky, right? From 1931. That's how it ended. Over something which is relatively trivial. That was enough to make him mad that he stormed out. And then Lewis went out and crushed Pesek. And Pesek came back after the first fall and said, okay, Ed, let's just work this last one. And he said, F you we're wrestling tonight, buddy. Oh man. He beat him so bad the newspaper said that Pesek was gonna have to leave town and build a new reputation before anybody would pay to see him again Someone else too, but yeah, that's That might be why Sandow didn't come back because he was proven wrong

Yeah, that could be you know because he was he was thin skinned and he had a bad temper. Yeah. Sandow continues managing, but he's never the major force that he was in the 20s. Sure. And but he lived, I think he lived a pretty long time, too. Tutsmont is the one that's the most interesting. Right. Also one that has one of the most checkered reputations. Yeah. Luthaz said he was a born thief at heart. And I listened to an interview with Don Leo Jonathan one time.

Yeah. And he said when, uh, Tootsmont was running the booking office in New York, he always made sure he got to the office as soon as it opened on the day they were getting paid, because if you waited too long, they'd start going into the guy's pay packets for their gambling. They bet on the horses and stuff. Yeah, so he would get there and he said he asked toots one day. He said Toots how much money would you have to take from a guy to feel like you know, this is too much I've ripped this guy off too bad. He said toots sat there and thought for a second said $25,000

Well shit yeah, and this is the late 50s right So the cost of a house in in Santa Barbara. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so so toots had a Larson his heart and but he's also a Wrestling genius as much as luthas hated him. Luthas detested him luthes also said he's a genius the one thing you got to say about Tutsma as he understands wrestling and a lot of the inventions and the things that he came up with you see in wrestling today The the package the package is bigger But that package wrestling shows what we still have to this day. The speeding up of the wrestling you know not holding people on the ground for two hours. Right. The reason they did that people don't

understand a lot of it was around gambling schemes so even though from about nine I always say wrestling before 1900 was mostly contests but there was working from the beginning. Sure. Between 1900 and 1915, you have the transition where summer contest. There's a lot more working going on. Yeah. And then after 1915, unless it's a double cross or a agreed upon shoot

to settle a promotional war, it's it's work matches. Right. So, but these guys wouldn't just bet on who's going to win. They would bet on who had the quickest fall, who would get the first fall. Right. And so sometimes they would be having these hour long falls because they're trying to get all the Betty, everybody they can. And once they think they've generated all the bets that they possibly can on that. Okay. However, we're going to make the most money.

That's just going over in the first ball. Yeah. And so yeah, until the athletic commissions put an end to that in the thirties, that was going on for a long time. Sure. And so that's why you have some of those matches go so long. But Mont was critical in the formation of the Worldwide Wrestling Federation of Vince Vincent J. McMahon. Jessup McMahon yeah yeah yeah because he was he was kind of his mentor. Yeah and he was partners with them yeah and he was involved until 69 I think. It was back when it was Capitol Wrestling. Yes, but it was Capitol Sports. Yep, he was instrumental in helping them form that company.

And he finally retires in 69. He's like 75 years old because his wife is from St. Louis. And he's going to come back to St. Louis to help take care of his mother-in-law. She passes in 1972, but they decide to stay here because he's friends with Sam Muchnick. They go have lunch quite a bit. And he actually lives here till he passes in 1976. He's actually buried in Calvary Cemetery or St. Louis. And so he was here for like the last six seven years of his life

He's kind of the Shogun of the NWA then if he's lunging with Sam Mushnick, you know, yeah. Yeah Wow Well, I that's and I think that's all the main players. Yeah well, and Pesach Pesach goes on and The story around Pesach was once he did the double crosses, nobody would trust him. They put the world title on him three times in the thirties and early forties, but he was only a part-time wrestler from about the mid thirties because he's in 1928. He went to Australia and he had already had a greyhound racing team from like 24 or 25

And he brought back two champion greyhounds from Australia The Australian greyhounds were bigger than the ones we have here in the United States Okay, so the ones we had in the United States at the time were like 60 to 65 pounds these two were 82 and 80 pounds and just Andrew and these dogs at 1975, when he was recognized for his lifetime achievement by the Greyhound association in the United States, uh, 80% of the racing dogs in the United States were, uh,

descendants of those two dogs that he brought back from Australia. He was a multimillionaire as a Greyhound dog breeder The wrestling he just did because he liked it But he didn't need the money after about 1930 or 31 his Greyhound racing team made more money than he ever made in wrestling That is a really good time to not need to make money Yeah Yeah for sure. Yeah Wow and Stanislaus

Zabisco like you said he ended up living with his brother Yeah And in his brother's wife yes, yeah, and they they die about a year apart Stanislaus dies in 67 and Vladek dies in 68 Vladek is buried in Missouri up by st. Joseph where they had to farm 1968 Vladek is buried in Missouri up by st. Joseph where they had to farm Stanislaus is with his wife in Saccomane and I if I recall correctly this the Zabisco brothers trained people at their farm Yes, including Harley race. I really worked at their farm. And yes, he traded farm work for training

Yes, and Stanislaus was in his mid 80s at that point he said he didn't do very much training with him but that Vladek had taught him quite a bit before he started working with Gus Karras. Then they took his training a little further. Right man you know there's a wonderful quote that I remember reading and it was that these new guys, they, I'm gonna Damian phrase it, but these new guys, they work too fast, they sell way overboard and all this kind of stuff and they just need to slow down and stop being so cartoonish with their selling. I don't think they said cartoonish, but, and that was Luther's complaining about Harley Race. And I just love that because

everybody looks at Harley as as the really hardcore guy. Everybody in our generation, if you love old wrestling, you would look to Harley as the kingpin of it. And I love that Scott Hall was telling people to slow way the hell down in the 90s. he's like, you want to make money at this. You want to be longevity. You got to slow down, you know, what would luthus think if he saw today? Right. Well, he'd be mad that they're not wearing wool, you know,

I just worry about the wrestlers because the bumps they're taking are akin to what I used to see the dynamite kid take yes And he was in a wheelchair at 39 and I'm afraid a lot of these wrestlers today if they don't slow down on some Of those bumps your body only has so many bumps if you're a mixed martial artist your body only has so many weight cuts in it Right, you've only got so many things and once you exceed that then your health starts to go down very quickly Yeah, or you got only got so many knockouts in you. Yeah, like absolutely, you know The difference between Chuck Liddell in 2002 and Chuck Liddell now Yeah, is stark and scary like yeah, and yeah, they're starting to take bumps now out on the apron

Which is ridiculous and they're starting to the hardest absolute part of the ring, right? And it's advertised as such and that's why they're starting to take bumps now out on the apron which is ridiculous and they're starting to the hardest absolute part of the ring Right and it's advertised as such and that's why they're starting to do it But it's just like there's no point like now, you know I mean there is a point but like not every match right, you know You don't have to get all of your stuff in about it. Yeah People don't have to see that every single time. And once they've seen it, how do you follow it? Right. And I always remember that bump that Rick Rood took that messed his back up when you saw that he just landed on a

ledge. It was, you know, just a little bit. And you think, oh, that's no bump. That is what messed his back up because it was just that different of elevation. Yep. Well, I mean, that's, that's a very similar to the Shawn Michaels back breaking pump. Yeah, it just, you know, like even on screen, it does, that's that's a very similar to the Shawn Michaels back breaking pump. Yep. It just you know, like even on screen, it does not look like that big a deal. That's why I never liked when Mick Foley would do the nasty plunge. Ed, nasty plunge is where you're on the apron. And you just take a flat back bump on the concrete.

Yeah. So it's a five foot fall. Me. Yeah. And it doesn't I mean, everybody who love broken ribs much like right. Well, luckily Mick was shaped more like you and me. So boy, I will say this, I was never that impressed with the look of that bump. And and people would like just Oh my god, it's so blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, but it doesn't look like much. And frankly, the slap of flesh on concrete doesn't transfer on TV very well.

No. So maybe it was something really electrifying for the crowd. But I honestly, I was like, that's not worth it, dude. His bump off the top, I understood why he took that. That was spectacular spectacular as in a spectacle but the Nestea plunge you know that kind of stuff yeah you know was the worst kind of bump because it doesn't look that good but it probably hurts exactly Jesus you know and you're talking about it being shaped like you

would me which you know part of me wants to say fuck you but I you know like but You know all of our all of that padding is is on is on the front end, right? like that that the walrus technique of Right, you know self-armoring that doesn't do anything for your spinal cord. No like no Oh, that's that's just your back of your ribs and your spine. That's bone hitting the floor Besides which you know bouncing your head off the concrete The back of your head. Oh, yeah, the concrete is you know Mick has has come out and he very much regrets the influence that that's had But he's kind of of two ways about it,

but he also, he's dealing with the constant brain trauma. I think he said like his concussion count that he can think of is like somewhere in the 80s. Like, you know, and this is before you had concussion protocols and stuff like that. Now they literally stop matches if somebody takes too big a bump, which is good. That's yeah. At the same time. That's what the

countout is for. Like, yeah, make that make that work, you know, and you can absolutely do things with it. But like, you know, Ken, you're absolutely right. Like people are. Well, you also come from St. Louis, so it's much more Wrestling that was about as straight a promotion as you could get to that's why it went down so quickly when The Central States guys took over they didn't know what made st. Louis special right and within a year They had ruined it and Larry Madisic left which hurt it, too Yeah, they survived as long as they did because when Larry's promotion went out they brought the Von Erics up to St. Louis and they were always huge so that let them limp along to 86 but yeah my

sister was 15 years older than me so when we were part of a blended family before they use that term. Sure. My mom and dad I was raised by my stepfather they got married when I was 12 my sister's 15 years older than me so she's 27. Huge wrestling fan. Sure. But has no one, I was raised by my stepfather. They got married when I was 12. My sister's 15 years older than me. So she's 27. Huge wrestling fan. Sure. But has no one to go with her to the matches and she's got two season tickets. Finds out, oh little brother likes wrestling. So she says hey you want to go? So we went for several years. And in 86 when that promotion stopped her fandom stopped. My sister never would never came back to it, and she was a bigger fan than me

when we were going all the time. But her style of wrestling went away when that promotion went away, and she never could adapt to the WCW or the WWF at that point, their style. Yeah. No, yeah, each each territory had its own style too. Yeah. But yeah, I still I still by and

large agree with you that like, there is there is an acceleration and a lack of importance to the moves be and I think it's video games. Yeah, I genuinely do. And I'm not a person who thinks video games are ruining everything. But like I, in this instance, because you can do cool combo moves on the video game, you kind of want to see that in every match. And now wrestlers have a primary move, a secondary move, a tertiary move, and they start doing these things. And you look at what the finishing moves were in the 80s and

the 90s and now you look at what the finishing move and people are kicking out of those. Right. Was the end of the match back then. Right. Yeah. And I don't want to sound like the old guy because I do appreciate some of the things that I see. And I do like the fact it's the reason the reason the wrestling isn't as good in the ring anymore is because they're not in the ring as often as They used to be but that seven day a week road schedule was killing a lot of people. That's why wrestlers We're dying look at the number of wrestlers that I watched when I was a kid. They're all gone. Yeah, and That lifestyle was killing them. So I'm happy for them that it's more manageable. You can have a family now Yes, but the bumps they're taking scares me because I'm afraid that they're gonna cripple themselves at a very young age. Yeah

Well, I mean we saw you know Seth Rollins with the throw you power bomb and it stinks career. Yep And Brett has been very vocal about how he does not like Seth's Particular wrestling, you know and but if you look at who's really, really popular right now, CM Punk is much more of that middle of America, like grind it out. High impact moves. Sure. But like, not that many that you can't protect your opponent with. Right. with right so yeah, but Well, um this has absolutely been a blast more than I ever could have hoped for thank you so much Normally what Ed and I do is we we we go around the horn and talk about What books we recommend to people?

So I'll start at you and then Ken if you want to either plug something or recommend a book or both It's perfectly fine, but I'm going to jump out first and say I'm going to highly recommend double crossing the gold dust trio by Ken Zimmerman jr. It's a fantastic book. You can get it pretty much everywhere books are sold And it's a fin it reads so easy The writing style is fantastic. It's it's a fin... It reads so easy. The writing style is fantastic. It's a lot of fun and it absolutely gets at all of the meat and potatoes behind all the stuff that we talked about. Ed, what are you recommending to people to imbibe? Well, I'm going to make a really big jump from there.

And as homework, if you're going to be listening to my next episode I very strongly recommend that you go out and read The novel don't don't watch the TV show Read the novel interview with a vampire because I'm gonna be talking about vampire stuff and the early 90s and That is that is the important inflection point there. All right, so I'm recommending that to it's also a pretty good read I'm not a horror fan, but it's it's I mean, it's famous for a reason so right there you go cool Ken

What do you want wanting to plug and or for people to read? Well, actually I was gonna bring up the book I'm reading right now and it's called the Pope at war by David I Kertzer and it's about Pope Pius the 12th and trying to navigate the World War two scene and dealings with Benito Mussolini and Even the Nazi Germany regime right and even the Nazi Germany regime. To me it has a lot of lessons for today about compromise and how much you want to compromise and where you need to take a stand. So I think it's a really good book. And I hate to plug anything because

it makes me sound like a shill but if you were interested in today's talk I've got a number of books on Amazon about this era so I only look at professional wrestling I'm a fan of professional wrestling from a kid but I only look at it from the time period of 1870 to 1930 and I think in American history this is a very neglected time period if you go into any bookstore You'll see everything from Civil War Then there's very little in between and then you get to World War two So I was always interested in that era. We're not that many people who are writing and talking about sure

Cool. All right Let's see Ed where can they find us? We collectively can be found on our website at www.geekhistorytime.com. And if you go there, you can find our archive of all of the several hundred now episodes. More than 300. Yes, that we have put together. Find a topic that interests you and dive into it.

We can also be found on the Amazon podcast app, the Apple podcast app, and on Spotify. Wherever you have found us, please take the time to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know we deserve. And where can you be found, sir? Well, let's see. By the time this drops, I'm going to say that you probably missed the March 7th show and you may have missed the April 4th show. So May 2nd at Sacramento's Comedy Spot at 9 p.m. Come and see Capital Punishment.

That is me and my pun group. May 2nd. Bring $15. Spin that wheel. It is so much fun. It's going to be a banger of a show. Also, the June 6th show, I believe Mark Berg, the host, is actually going to be a contestant. And then the July show will actually be July 11th,

because it would otherwise fall on the 4th of July. We don't want to take up time from other people's celebrations. So July 11th, you really want to make sure you make it to that show. That's going to be a very special one. Go to saccomedyspot.com, click on the calendar, find the tickets, buy them now because I guarantee you these shows are going to sell out. So those are, that's where you can find me Ken where can people find you if you want to be found? Oh, you can just go to Kenserman jr.com That's my website and it links to all the things I write about. I not only write about combat sports history But also quite a bit of st. Louis history as well

Wonderful. They're very cool. Well Ken again. Thank you so much for being with us. This has been great. Yeah, so For a geek history of time Ken. Thank you. I'm Damian Harmony, and I'm Ed Blaylock and until next time keep rolling 20s