A Geek History of Time - Episode 313 - White Wolf Part II Vampire Coffin Fits

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

Blow in her face and she'll follow you anywhere. You are destroying the constitution of the United States. May God have mercy on your souls. Good day. Yes, sir. Sir, you're safe. Good day. We could be saved if we just elected the right white man to power.

That's creepy, but that's a different category of creepy. Zit-zoo, zit-zoo, zit-zoo. Gary Gygars. Of course he introduced zoning laws. Okay. You know what, don't. The less I have to do with that game the better. Here's my favorite part of the defense.

Clodius was probably fucking his sister. Jughead not Jarhead, I have nothing against Marines, I'm gonna make that very clear. I'd be really interested to find out what fucking truth that one was trying to get at. Like with most episodes I can bring him back to wrestling. Oh. Right, well, he's got other people who work for him

who also do things. And they can mutate human size into smaller worlds, after all. Fuck you. I still don't give a shit about getting fake property in a fantasy game This is a Geek History of Time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California.

And just a couple of days ago, this week, I caught myself playing a one handed game of what my wife and I call find the trigger. In that, yeah, no, don't worry about it. It's not,'s not as not as bad as it sounds everything about this makes me want to congratulate you both like You graduated to only one hand that she calls it that yeah in the room for it, I mean, yeah But We Adopted that the name of this particular game from a friend of the show Tessa because

It's it's where you normally it's where you and your partner are having a conversation And they accidentally brush up against something. It's like okay. I didn't realize that was a trigger, but you found it Okay I Didn't realize that was a trigger, but you found it Okay, and I I Took the day off Because I was I had originally been planning on on visiting my son at his school And I found out that you know I could drop off the thing that I was going to be bringing to his class, but I could not go

Into the room. It's it's a school rule So I was rather disappointed about that and it was as I was leaving his school to head home That I realized I had not heard from my wife And normally every day when she gets to work, she texts me and says, hey, I made it to work safe.

And then when I get to work, I text her and say, thanks, babe, love you, safe at school. You know? And it's just a thing. We just, you know. And, you know, there are days when, like, what happened the other day was she got to work and there were already customers waiting outside And it was just straight into you know the mix sure but for whatever reason that day

when I realized I hadn't heard from her I Kind of started to spin out worrying started to spin out worrying. Hmm. And I spent probably, I don't know, five minutes, like somehow for whatever reason, like being really worried about her having gotten into an accident or, you know, something having happened like on the freeway or whatever. And it just really struck me that like, I I am really really married because like I was getting into

in my own head like what am I gonna do with her not around so like it was it was it was a very weird thing of course it all turned out to be fine, but I it was it was really it was it was a it was Uncomfortable in a really serious way for a couple of minutes But yeah drove home just exactly how glad I am to have her So that's that's the positive spin I have put on it since then So yeah, how about you? Well, I'm Damian Harmony. I am a US history teacher up here in Northern California.

And two things that happened at work recently. One was a student asked me, kind of as they're studying their things and going over things, there's chats that occur and stuff like that. And he asked me, he's like, Mr. Harmony, have you ever read a book called 1984? And it was everything I had to do not to just laugh in his fucking face. And I'm like, and I'm laughing, I am laughing. Right. Because oh my god, and there's a few other students who have read 1984. And they're like,

of all the fucking people to ask. And I'm like, yeah, I used to assign it as reading when I taught government. I found my own copies that I keep. I have a class set in the back cabinet there. Yes, I've read 1984. Well, we're kind of sorta going that way. I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God.

And then I'm like, okay, this is his first time reading it Yeah, yeah and what a hell of a time to be reading it But okay, so just don't don't launch into it against him like cuz that's not fair to him, but oh my god hipster teenagers Talking about how yeah, they've just it would just discovered It's the thing that the thing that got you is the hey, I just discovered this thing, right? And I'm like, what have we been studying the whole year? 48. Yeah, I'm just like and not only like you just discovered it but like

Everything we've talked about has been reconstruction and it's been like, hey, look at how it echoes forward, you know, and stuff like that. And yeah, okay. Okay. And then I finally tried to explain it as I was like, yeah, I have, um, when you're done with it, a really good companion piece, it's not meant to be a companion piece, but a companion piece to it is of course Aldous Huxley's brave new world to which he, you know, and I said,

and that's a world in which you have the same kind of And he interrupted me With all of the enthusiasm and confidence of a boy who does such things and he says oh like the Captain America movie like It's probably getting its name from that yes, but no Yeah, that was the first Orwellian reference of the of the week It's probably getting its name from that. Yes, but no. But no. Yeah. So that was the first Orwellian reference of the week.

The second one was a math teacher friend of mine comes to me and he's been reading all the classics because he never really read them before. He was good at math, that's what he stuck to. Now he's starting to read them. So I got him to read Hellermann's Catch-22. Oh, oh Jesus. And so he's like because I was like it's all kayfabe And so now he gets it

And and he and I were laughing and sharing like how fucking ridiculous it was and he's like, oh my god That's exactly this and that and that I'm like, yeah, so then he comes to me the next day he's like by the way, I found the character that you are in fiction, and I was like oh Okay, he's like yeah, I started reading Animal Farm And I was like okay snowball gets run off. I ain't leaving like And I ain't turning the glue like Think I am and he's like The old pig that tells them everything that comes to pass. That's you and I was like, oh I'm old major that

100% makes sense that that you would think that cuz I'm the one who gave him the list of books. Yeah And everything I've said has come to pass like, you know, I'm going I'm going to say As somebody who does not view the world from inside your skull for sure old major fits like yeah as As as your partner in this endeavor and your friend outside of that yes You know like so I'm going to tell you some things and you may not like hearing them But they're gonna fucking happen, so Yeah, and and I just want to say for for the audience who does not have a video connection going right now

You all need to understand the way that Damien was pinching the bridge of his nose And and putting his putting his hand over his eyes as as he talked about his student there And and if you've ever worked in education, you know exactly Exactly what that was And just real quick. Are these juniors? Yes Yeah, all right, I I Feel bad laughing. Yeah for a couple of reasons. One of them is I know I tried very hard Not to be that guy. Mm-hmm when I was that age

I know there were a couple of times where When I was that age, I know there were a couple of times where Like my my us my advanced US history teacher had to have been looking at me just nodding like hmm. Hmm Yeah, yeah Oh You don't say Really? Yeah It would be like if some kid like is it guys guys know when he shot Curly's dog That was kind of like him later,

like George shooting Lenny. Huh? Really makes you think. Like you discovered the secret of John Steinbeck's novel. Yeah. That Steinbeck himself didn't know. Like, it's that kind of vibe. Yeah. That gun on the mantelpiece, Steinbeck himself didn't know you'd like it like that kind of vibe. Yeah

That gun on the mantle piece. I Think that's the murder weapon It's figure that out all by yourself there champ, I know I know it takes a certain kind of mind. Yeah That line that line right there that is that is it that was the vibe. Yeah, so yeah and and I of course you haven't said anything about the The background of the student that did this but it would not be what you'd expect and I would not yeah, okay But like there is there is really peak. Yeah Slightly above average white boy, right

energy going on in that in that line like You know you you are bright but fuck dude, you're not that smart and only barely like And you don't you're bright for today's standards, I don't know what to tell you like And and you have that level of intellectual potential, but you don't have a lick of common sense, right? You are only potential at this point. Yeah. Yeah, you are there's Like there's nothing kinetic about you right entirely potential. Yeah. Yeah, so Wow, no good kid and and I mean I here's the thing He's he's not he's not a dumb kid by any stretch

and At the end of the day like I am grateful as hell that he is making those connections I really am yeah, because no one says you have to read that book even when it's assigned no one says you have to make those connections to the world that we're living in no one says you have to pay attention to the world that we're living in and he's doing those things so I don't want to be the parent who like criticizes their kid for coming out of the room by saying oh look who decided to join us It's like yeah, I don't want to criticize the behavior. I want to say here, but right

But here's the deal here's the deal I have bad instincts I will just say that I have bad instincts And I don't always win in the fight against the shitty person that I used to be I don't always win in the fight against the shitty person that I used to be I recognize how bad those instincts are The best thing to do is to encourage that child to then go on and read another book But it's when they interrupt you with with their enthusiasm And so again, I don't want to shit on the enthusiasm either Of course and they're tying it to the movie brave new world with Captain America and as of this recording I've not yet seen it. Um, all that being said

They're very likely drawing a parallel. They're not realizing because that title is Absolutely pulling on that But and so so all these things are actually good things For a kid to be doing yes, I I want to Encourage you however to to be gentle with yourself because sure You I mean you're teaching 16 and 17 year olds yes like as like you can have the best intentions in the world and you can be as patient and and

compassionate and and conscious as you are And they're still just gonna drive you fucking nuts. Yeah. Yeah, you know and and just recognize that that's just like Yeah, that is that is that that Understandable reaction right that so right You know, yeah, no, I get it like I'm teaching middle schoolers, and and I wish I had that problem But I have I have entirely different ones So Vampires yeah, yeah

So when I left off I had gotten through kind of setting the setting the context setting the tone background for the release of vampire the masquerade in 1991 now, you know vampire Came out and was from the beginning You know there were there were promotional materials and everything in game stores that were saying, hey,

this is the first part of the world of darkness, where we have this whole world that's all going to be in this common setting. We're starting with vampires. And in a few months from now we're gonna come out with werewolf and then we're gonna come out with you know mage and these other things. Okay. And and what's interesting when I get to talking about mage in another couple of episodes, if you if you held on to those

pamphlets You actually kind of got a window into the development of the concepts of the game as they were working on it because Some of the stuff they talked about in the in the promotional blurb Changed between then and when when the first edition of the game actually came out, but that's for later on sure for right now vampire Is is important for a whole host of reasons and it's not it's not just because of its its Position as the first release of the world of darkness Back in earlier episodes when I was talking about palladium books and rifts

Back in earlier episodes when I was talking about palladium books and rifts I mentioned that it took a while for horror as a genre to show up Right in tabletop role-playing game media right right right the first one was call of Cthulhu in 1981 Which was a horror game, but was a very specific milieu of horror. It was cosmic horror, it was a lovecraft, you know, and then in 1983 we have Stalking Tonight Fantastic, which was very much a there are monsters out there we're going to hunt them down, you

know, we are Van Helsing in the modern era kind of sure Sure, and then in 1984 chill the first edition of chill came out and that was very much a hey Let's hang out on beanbag chairs Smoking pot and listening to Pink Floyd. Yeah. Yeah the role-playing. Yeah, I I wish no it was What do I roll a doobie? Oh, okay? Bitchin don't fish lip it man So but but what what it actually was was a role-playing game to capture the

Particular kind of of horror that you saw in 1970s horror films okay, where there was a lot of heavy heavy overlay of dread very atmospheric very you know moody and There were mechanics in the game to reflect the literal chill the psychic You know looming gloom sure of being around you know this kind of supernatural evil and So all of these games that followed the premise that the PCs were mortals

Mm-hmm, and that they were hunters or or survivors, either by accident or bad luck. Or in the case of stalking, they were hunters on purpose, right? Right. Fantastic. That the the monsters are antagonists to them. Yes. Yeah yeah that their existence is is what's the word I'm gonna say affected because I cannot find the word their their existence is affected by these monsters yes yes impacted yeah yeah the monsters the monsters are all the antagonists which I think you actually said and yeah, the monsters the monsters are all the antagonists Which I think you you actually said and yeah, I lost in the process of you hunting for a word

but and and so You know the and and even in Beyond the Supernatural From palladium games again. It was You know the horror here is there are monsters you have to survive mm-hmm right this is this is you know straight up you know we're in a slasher movie you know we're in we're in a a traditional werewolf film whatever you find out there's a monster you hunt the monster or you know try to find a way to get away from the monster right one way or another you hunt the monster or you know try to find a way to get away from the monster

Right one way or another you defeat the monster or die in the attempts right? And this is very much in line with the paradigm of The fantasy role-playing games that were that were next to them on the shelf Right there are monsters out there. You're gonna go out there as the hero and you're going to go out there and you're going to fight the monsters and take their stuff. You know, it's, it's, it's a very similar kind of narrative structure. It's thematically the same. Right. It's, uh, it lends itself very much to a very black and white kind of morality. You know, it's very simple. We're the good guys. They're the bad guys you know And so the developer of vampire mark Ryan Hagan

Thought that was that was boring that was cliched You know if you're if you're a vampire hunter you're gonna get tired of hunting vampires all the time You know if you're if you're a vampire hunter, you're gonna get tired of hunting vampires all the time So instead of making the game about hunting vampires, you are the monster That's different and That meant that the horror involved in the game was thematically much more like that in interview with a vampire right because you are coming at it from a sympathetic point of view not from a hunting it down it's an alien

point of view yeah right it's a whole lot more interview with a vampire a whole lot less Dracula sure okay and it is moral horror More than it is survival horror or or it is supernatural horror, but but the Supernatural element isn't what's scary. It's the it's the moral event horizon that you're dealing with right, you know the the the being the monster and the ethical horror involved in that and So

that meant That vampire wasn't built around the same narrative kind of structure, right? Because that kind of horror story Doesn't lend itself to the linear structure of, okay, here is the Lord giving you a mission to go do, and there's the dungeon you got to go, and you got to go fight the goblins and come back and get better gear and experience points, and then go back and fight orcs this time and then you know and that This is very much more built around character development. It's a much more psychological

Social interaction intrigue like I am a monster. I have to navigate a world full of other monsters Who are more monstrous than I am? other monsters who are more monstrous than I am. So there is still an antagonism to it. There is, there is an antagonism. It is that sympathy though. Yeah. The book's art style was iconic. It stood out for me anyway, really, really strongly

from basically all of the other stuff I'd seen up to that point. White Wolf had just absolutely amazing crew of artists. The visuals in the book were moody and atmospheric and they ranged from gloomy and gothic and, you know, melancholic to gore flecked, Melancholic to gore flecked Granganyal, you know blood everywhere, you know kind of stuff right and Tim Bradstreet Who went on to do a whole bunch of stuff? it for white wolf

But who is who is probably best known for the stuff he did for vampire? Does this amazing stuff that's all very very high contrast black and white Yeah kind of stuff yeah And the other artists that I want to specifically name check is Joshua Joshua Gabriel Timbrook Okay and In my opinion these guys are the most iconic of the crew there were Joshua Joshua Gabriel Timbrook Okay, and In my opinion these guys are the most iconic of the crew there were It was a murderers row of artists really is a bunch of really great great artwork in it Timbrook in particular is one of my favorites

favorite all-time RPG artists his style is really emotive and striking it is favorite all-time RPG artist. His style is really emotive and striking. It is somewhat abstract. It's clearly influenced by manga in that it has very bold, very simple kind of line work, but it's really evocative and he does a whole lot of like character portrait stuff and there's there's so much going on with very little in the way of obvious brushstrokes as it were and so a lot of his stuff is stuck with me you know for 30 plus years it's amazing so and there's a really heavy goth subculture influence on the aesthetic. And I mean, unsurprisingly, right? It's a vampire game. Goths. It's the thing. Mark Ryan Hagan

specifically refers directly to goth music and the goth worldview in the game mastering section of the rule book to the point that he actually gives like a playlist recommendations of songs and and groups My friend Gabe who was one of the one of the two guys in our group who bought the book first Actually wound up buying a bunch of albums from Bauhaus based on their mention One of one of the songs that I remember the title to is Bauhaus actually did a song Bella Lugosi's dead. Yeah

likely their most famous Yeah, the thing they're most notoriously named for or known for. Yeah. Yeah, it's nine minutes of just like slowly building to an Odd I'm sure that in clubs it was a big hit. Like I find it fascinating, but equally do I find it fascinating that people really vibed out to it. Yeah.

There's a particular place you have to be inhabiting to really groove to that. Like I don't feels like a basement with a strobe light Yeah, is it is vital to it like yeah like it really yeah, and I'm not sure what kind of drugs Different communities like that would yeah, but but if there's feels like psychedelic donors consciousness Yeah, all there. Yeah And so If there feels like psychedelic donors consciousness yeah involved there yeah, yeah And so To really simplify the history of Goth ism the gothic movement

Gothic rock really coalesced as a post-punk genre in the 1980s yes It had its roots back in the late 60s of course people people talk about the doors as an early example okay, gothic kind of stuff and and When I first read that I was like the do it goth the door. What are you and then I thought about it I'm like Jim Morrison deep baritone bear to the world right yeah deep baritone pants the really atmospheric floaty keyboard stuff in the background yep the you know heavily influenced by the romantics kind of kind of mood and right over the top kind of emotive yeah it all fits yeah I was like okay all right you know after I thought about that

I'm like yeah okay yeah I'll buy that that makes sense And the goth movement took inspiration from the romantic movement gothic horror literature punk culture and vampire literature in particular So it could be said that that vampire the game itself was kind of part of a cultural feedback loop Sure, you know because because the goth subculture was bubbling up and and getting bigger and and turning into more of a force and then vampire shows up and

that exposes people you know who are coming from the you know gamer nerd area of subculture to this whole aesthetic and this whole worldview who then move in that direction, which then feeds on itself and it turns into this. It's a feedback loop, turns into this thing. And to think about reasons why the goth movement, the goth subculture was growing in the late 80s. Think back to our episodes on punk. You know, we had the economic conditions of, you know, what was going on at that time after first there was the recession at the very beginning of Reagan's time in office and then as we move into the early 90s we're going back into a recession again right so there's there's that going on and then there's the

cultural repression of having 12 years of you know conservative Republican rule and Now remind me Contract with America isn't until Clinton so that's 94. Yeah or but the Remember it was made up. It was made up conflict yeah, by the people who'd lost half a step because a liberal was going to do the thing they wanted to do instead of them getting to do it. Yeah.

You know, so you got to keep that in mind. Like they were they were the hyper regressive band. You know, it's like it's kind of like the Jedi weren't all the skeptics. You just happen to have an ascetic gherkin in charge. Yeah. So like that seems to have set the tone for oh you shouldn't fuck But like there were plenty of Jedi who fuck Gherkin

By the way good gothic band name But or maybe not Yeah, but the other thing is is remember the the goth stuff like okay You you've got that like early 80s like the you know, bella luogosi is dead and you've got that and then it develops into kind of depressed Music and Depeche mode or the modern right and you get modern rock, right? yeah, and then in the 90s like goth kind of comes back as Yeah, you know, it's it's really kind of coming back in

It's almost like it it got overtaken by these other more commercially viable things and now Like ten years later, you've got the younger siblings of The of you know, I grew up listening to the cure and depression. So it's almost like they were primed by the more commercial Things and now they can get more into it Yeah, like goth band or goth prom and shit like that like you get these like oh Yeah, kind of interacts with rave culture, too Yeah, and it starts it starts getting closer to being mainstreamed right have you seen? And if not, I'll throw it in the in the chat

Okay, a bunch of goth kids dancing to Thomas the Tang Engine No, I have that's a no okay, okay, yeah carry on that's that's what I have okay Okay, so. So so goth, the goth subculture is is becoming more noticeable to to, you know, middle class, you know, white kids like me and my circle of friends. And so in in my circle of friends, Gabe and Steve, in particular, were both a couple of years older than the rest of us.

We were sophomores when they were seniors in high school. And Steve, in particular, was a Lestat fanboy because of the Ballantine graphic novel of the vampire Lestat. That was his exposure to it and I Think he wanted to be a goth Because there there was that that level of brooding kind of cool and When you're a teenage boy That that is an archetype of

you're a teenage boy that that is an archetype of badass that right you know there's there's there's a level of there's a particular kind of masculinity involved in that that you know right you know the the again that whole push-pull like you want to be that guy that you know? Has has the the scary jagged edges, but girls are like drawn to right right or or other guys? Don't mean to be you know Het normative by sure, but you know I'm speaking kind of from my own from inside my own head what sure being a teenager And so and I'm pretty sure also a big part of the reason why Steve kind of wanted to be a goth was because he thought Goth girls were hot which I mean he wasn't wrong That is an aesthetic. Yeah. Yeah, and and I'm girls were were like hippie girls

And where I went got girls were like hippie girls who? were More willing to do hard drugs. Okay. Yeah, there you go. So there's a bit of a weird menace to them. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, like they will they will grab and twist your dick. If you're lucky, you know, whereas the others will just you're really a good boy, yeah, you know There I there was there was a classmate of mine. They won't hate fuck you. They will disdain fuck you. Oh Yeah, there you go. That's that's a good distinction. Yeah. Yeah, I like that, but they all will still wear floor-length skirts, yeah, and probably some version of doctors and some yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, um there was there the one

notable Individual who I can think of who I look back and I'm like, oh, all right She was a goth in in my high school was a year ahead of me. I think and From what I understand she was rebelling against a home life where, like, everything was just completely repressive and, you know, like conservative Christian parents, and she was just throwing the fingers aggressively as she could. But she wore a lot of black heavy black eye makeup T-shirts that had you know inverted pentagrams and and she was less into goth music as she was into

like death metal So that was that was that edge of that goth yeah kind of yeah kind of Aesthetic that she had going on and there were got kids. It did like like What do you call it? EDM Electronica music, you know, like yeah, they're like cyber Goths. Yeah. Yeah, there's all kinds of subcategories. Sure of it but in her case she terrified me I

could understand like I Have to admit this like she was she was pretty You know pale platinum blonde hair Conventionally attractive and I and I totally understood why it was the couple of my friends were like, oh my god She's so fucking hot. But like every time I heard her open her mouth. It just scared me to death Okay, and and so You know So now I'm looking back on it, you know as an adult

I look back on on all of that and I kind of want to find out like if she's okay you know because Like yeah, she's probably a patent attorney or some shit or something. Yeah, you know But You know that was that was that was that was a thing and So so because of Those interests right they they both Gabe and and Steve Saw the vampire book they flipped through it and they they were like okay. We got to do this

Okay, so so they picked the game up, and yeah, I've talked about how our group worked It was like what do we want to play? So one Saturday night they were like I want to do we want to do vampire and sure like all right fine You know have you got character sheets were like yeah? we made photocopies, so we went through and we figured out how to make characters and I didn't get it like I Looked at the book, and I was like this is gorgeous. This is incredibly evocative

But like I don't I don't get it on an intellectual level I could totally understand the power trip fantasy of Being immortal and uncannily alluring and having magical superpowers sure But I was really squeamish about the idea of being a blood-sucking monster In exchange for it all like sure you mean to tell me I can't ever go to the beach again in daylight like It's it's not worth it You mean to tell me I can't ever go to the beach again in daylight like It's it's not worth it For me the the funny thing is like the defining feature of being a vampire is The part that in a role-playing game like D&D you tend to skip past

the eating You know, it would be like, if like, let's play, let's play load lifting the role playing game. It's like, yeah, I don't care about encumbrance rules. Yeah. You know, like, you want to make a whole game around that? Yeah, that section of the DMG has no interest for me. And you're saying that's what this is all about yeah Yeah And and so like I could understand the power trip But I couldn't understand the allure of that in light of what the trade-off was

Right it just didn't it didn't click for me And so without even realizing it as I was creating my first character, he wound up being a lot like Nick Knight from the TV series Forever Knight, which didn't actually come out until 1992. But in that show, the main character is a vampire who is 700 years old. And he is his name is Nicholas. And his last name is a reference to the fact that he was born a nobleman in medieval France. And he spent centuries being a monstrous sociopathic blood sucking killer. Catholic blood-sucking killer.

And now in the modern world he through because of a an experience that that you know made him realize just how far he had fallen He had a a Change of change of heart and and and his goal in the series was to try to find a way to recover his humanity Okay, like literally to give up his image wants to give up his immortality become a mortal man again And right now and as part of his atonement for all of the awful things he did He's a homicide detective working solely on the night shift And and by you know trying to catch criminals and bring them to justice he hopes that he can try to

Atone for all of the horrible things he did okay, and he he hides his supernatural abilities He struggles with predatory nature of his existence. It is it is a remarkably deep show like it gets into All kinds of philosophical things about okay. No seriously seriously. What if you really did live forever, right? the very thing that I Yeah, these shows to answer right? Yeah and You know he's he's there and his mentor

is this um Subtly evil like he's he's clearly not a good guy mm-hmm but in and he finds it amusing that Nick is trying to give up his immortality because he's like why would you give this up we were you know like I mean and and and everything this particular care Marius is the character's name And everything all of his interactions are colored by this Wonderfully portrayed level of on we Okay, has he seen everything sure and he's just looking for something to amuse him And so he's a this that character Marius is a late-night

radio show ho call-in radio host if our bell yeah kind of yeah, I know Anyway, like it's a great TV series But it ran 92 to 96 sadly was only three seasons but like Instinctively because my friends continually giving me shit about this even now as a you know almost 50 year old guy

If you give me a role-playing game, I'm going to wind up gravitating toward playing the paladin figure, right? You know the joke is even when it's not playing a paladin. He's playing a paladin sure so what are you doing this time at? Samurai lawful good, huh? Yeah You know oh, I'm playing wizard neutral good. Yeah, I know that won't last Right you know because Yeah Warlock oh god no Although all the rules have now come out to be a

Celestial warlock mm-hmm which I might try um but yeah You know no sorry, it's just it's not in me um because my my power fantasy is being able to Save the day sure You know for me that that is the power trip right right? and So my first character wound up being a private investigator not a cop

And in vampire you started out as a neonate you were a just turned Young vampire with just the merest beginning of your supernatural powers, okay But otherwise though thematically I tried to play a hero rather than an anti hero And I never really had I never really enjoyed playing vampire because what I wanted to do was really Hard to do yeah, because the system of the game was stacked against you doing that Yeah So that the two stats in vampire mm-hmm that made vampires different from mortals basically What was the lust at?

Nice yes, yeah Where your blood pool and your humanity? Okay so As a vampire you had blood points and as a neonate vampire the maximum number of blood points you could have was 10 Okay and Every well not every time some of your supernatural powers

Were activated by using up a blood point sure We refer to it as burning a blood point okay burning burning a blood point yeah and So you could use a blood point for example to? increase one of your character stats, your strength, your dexterity. They didn't call it dexterity. I don't remember right now what it was. But your physical stats or one of your social stats,

you could suddenly become very magnetic you know By burning by burning a blood point sure You could also Spend a blood point to feed blood to a mortal Which would turn them into a ghoul which would be your your servant and the more times you did that to a human the more bound to you They became okay you could some of your Supernatural powers would also be activated by using a blood point not all of them required it, but some of them did

Okay, so you so you have this, this is essentially the, the gasoline on which your supernatural powers operate. Right. And, um, one blood point went away every night when you woke up, just, just because you, you, it was like food. You, you consumed it, used it up and it was like food you you Consumed it used it up and it was gone

If you fell to zero blood points you would pass out and fall into torpor and Basically like falling into a coma and be vulnerable to Whatever anybody wanted to do to you mm-hmm You weren't technically dead, but it was a very dangerous state to fall into And so you didn't want to one you didn't want to have that happen if your blood points fell below about three and I'm Trying to recollect the details out of the rule book sure But if your blood pool got low enough it became harder for you to avoid entering a frenzy and Turning into a ravaging blood-soaked murderer

Okay, because because you were starting to get thirsty enough that being around mortals was dangerous for them right And so you had to at some point you were going to have to feed right if you wanted to be really moral about it like if you really were like I you know I'm fighting against becoming this evil thing you could feed on animals Okay, but that wouldn't slake your thirst the same way that feeding on a human would sure if you You know found a stray animal and Drained it You'd get one or two blood points

Okay, keep you from starving But it's if you're if you know that you're gonna be going up against another vampire or you know That you know you're gonna want you're gonna want to have a reserve because there might be werewolves Right go and you know you might you might need might need to use your abilities for whatever reason That's not gonna do the trick you're going to need at some point to feed on a human. You got a carb load Yeah, yeah, yeah Sure Need at some point to feed on a human you got a carb load. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah sure and so

Humanity was the stat that represented your connection to your mortal existence One of the way of looking at it would be your morality Sure, sure and like like many things in the storyteller system which is what the system was called it operated on a scale of from 1 to 10 a starting character normally Started the game with a humanity of 7 Okay, okay If you got to a humanity above 7 you were exceptionally moral

And as time went on if you lost humanity Which I'm going to talk about in a second you became more and more detached more and more cold You had a harder time Making social interactions with mortals You looked more and more inhuman All of that kind of stuff okay Humanity was what helped you resist falling into a frenzy and

When you committed harmful or morally wrong acts as a vampire You had to roll to maintain your humanity level okay so now when you start out at a seven depending on what it is you're doing right your chances are better than not of being able to pass that humanity role unless you just suddenly decide you know out of the blue You know what I'm just gonna murder that dude, okay? You know if it was look I have to feed I have to find this person And I you know I there's there's this individual, and I'm only going to feed enough to

Meet my needs right now right. I'm not I'm not gonna kill him. I'm just you know sure That would be that would be a morality role or a humanity role It would be fairly easy to pass and you don't have to worry about it, but if you Got unlucky and you fumbled that role if you had a critical failure on that role Then you're gonna lose a point of humanity So, you know if you if you fucked up and killed a human by accident the difficulty on your humanity role is going to be less than if you killed them on purpose and

be less than if you killed them on purpose. And that in turn would be less difficult than if you were like, No, not only am I killing them, I am draining them completely dry and I am reveling in the fact that I'm doing it. Okay, the level of depravity of what you're doing would affect the difficulty of your role. Okay. affect the difficulty of your role. Okay. And like I said, even trying to be moral, there was always the chance you were going to have that fumble and lose a point of humanity. So even if you're trying to go along being a moral individual over time and remember your character is immortal right

over a long enough time span you're eventually going to end up turning into Count Orlok sure and as you lose humanity it becomes easier and easier to fail a role Okay, and it becomes easier and easier for you to do worse things sure Because that's that's the the moral event horizon shifting right right right and the horror of that was the point Yeah, I could see why I didn't get into the game. Yeah. It wasn't, the horror wasn't gore, right? Although over time the shock value of things in the game got ramped up.

Sure, sure. But it was moral horror. Right. And really, to be honest, in 1991, 1992, my gaming group was not mature enough to get it Yeah, I just you know, it's It kind of reminds me back to The ninth level fighter episode that we did Why do you want to do that? Yeah, I don't care about that. Why?

Yeah, oh real estate, huh It's like, oh, now I'm extra. Don't give a shit about overeating. Yeah. I love the fact that you continually boil it down to real estate. Like just because I mean, you're not wrong, but yeah, the way you just cut right to the chase with that always always makes me laugh It's like that's it's it's I'm not interested in that kind of storytelling of like if I've got a character who's struggling to maintain His humanity. Yeah, you should put obstacles in my way and all the choices that I have to make are moral choices That don't have a mechanic

Yeah, and it's the having the mechanic part is like have to make are moral choices that don't have a mechanic. Yeah. And it's the having the mechanic part is like, you put a moral choice in my way and there's a mechanic for why I can out math it or why I can succumb to it despite the story not really demanding it yet. No thanks. Yeah. No thanks.

Yeah. Like, and therein lies the rub. Cause I love playing characters that are deeply Conflicted on this level and if you've got a good GM like Absolutely, like I've had yeah, yeah, you know, I've had it where where it's like, okay, you could save your friends But you're absolutely gonna lose like, you know full control and I'm like fuck it. Let's go for it Okay, my character would absolutely like let loose on that and and then afterwards lose like, you know, full control. And I'm like, fuck it, let's go for it. OK.

My character would absolutely like let loose on that. And then afterwards, show me how I got to pick up the pieces. I'm down for it. But if like afterwards, show me how I got to pick up the pieces. And he goes, OK, I need you to make a roll on this. And we'll see how many of the pieces you're able to pick up from it. And otherwise, you have to act X amount more insane.

And it's like, no. No, that's not fun. It's kind of like when, you know, I'll take a character who can gamble. I'll roll my deception against your insight, you roll your deception against my insight. That, to me, those are opposed rolls. I'm down for it. And he's like, yeah, okay, so go ahead and roll a D20 and we'll see how much your gambling works. I's like, yeah, okay, so go ahead and roll a d20 and we'll see how much your gambling works I'm like that no no like Use the appropriate mechanics

Or don't like yeah, you know, it's like, okay. Well you do this. I'm like, well, I my character doesn't play roulette Like no, you know, that's not a gamble then, you know and the other way around too of like Like, no. You know, that's not what I'm doing. I won't gamble then. You know? Yeah. And the other way around too of like, okay, go ahead and roll and we'll see how much more insane you are. And it's like, no. Like, yeah. Like, give me a true moral choice, you know, and all that.

And I will act accordingly. And we could absolutely work a redemption arc if that's what we're aiming at. Or we'll just see where this you know yeah, yeah No, I did so far Absolutely no interest whatsoever in this game So yeah, it was a great that mechanic, and I might really enjoy it actually yeah, but that seems pretty central It really was supposed to be yeah And it was this this blood-slicked slippery slope kind of kind of thing right and

Again it was intended to be about moral horror and Again my friends, and I were not we're not At the place we needed to be in order to really get that and I think there was from the beginning a very significant Proportion of the community that didn't really

Get it or that that was not that was not the appeal which right obviously we can understand sure and And where there was appeal? I didn't I didn't get it and that was the I Am a superhuman monster And I can do all of this cool shit, and I am cool, and I am Alluring and there's you know all this all the stuff I can do and and then you know and all of my interactions have to do with you know all of us having you know there was there was this

kind of negative glamour yeah that was like know, let's all your power over others well, that's your power over others and your struggle to not be overpowered and It was it it's there's there's a power dynamic thing going on and there's a kind of in in in Circumstances Where it's not handled right by a game master it can turn into let's all revel in being worse versions of ourselves Yeah, yeah Which like I don't want to do that like the last time the last time I found that entertaining was when like I was 11 and a murder hobo and

Right that didn't stay entertaining for me for very long. Well, and that was a murder hobo in bold Yeah, now you want me to do the same thing but in cursive Yeah, like no, thanks. I like the analogy. That's yeah Yeah And and you know and the thing is it was it was It was designed to be again. It was intended to be one thing and right what What for a lot of people it became was another? Mm-hmm, and

You know vampire was the flag bearer Not only of the world of darkness, but for for a new wave in role-playing games like in general that were moving in directions of Bringing up more mature concepts and themes Sure, you know we talked about brave new world speaking of brave new world different brave new world, but you know The ideas the ideas that are involved in hey let's take the superhero genre and really look at you know where where does

this lead and what are the moral implications of this thing and how does this tie in with you know authoritarianism and yeah like all of that kind of all that kind of stuff that's that's part of this same wave. You know, and and so the the medium was was becoming more sophisticated and it was moving in these in this more adult kind of direction. Sure. And so, you know, the focus of of the game was supposed to be on social interactions and, you know, dealing with operating as this creature in this fallen world kind of setting the world of darkness is.

And so they developed a whole new system, the storyteller system, which I've already kind of talked about but to kind of go into How it worked? You know in in Dungeons and Dragons You you have a d20 is basically your your decision-making tool for you know, right? You could fail in anything right right and it's very linear You know you either hit or you it's binary be a better way to put it you either hit or you don't you either succeed or you fail and What the way the storyteller system worked was you use D tens?

And it was it was similar to what had already been experimented with in shadow run But shadow run had used six sided dice and this this shifted it to D tens which allowed for for a greater swing sure and So for example in in the storyteller system, it would be okay. You are going to be trying to convince another, a member of another coven of vampires to, to help you out in when you go up to the prince and you're, you know, trying to make a case for whatever it is you need. Right. You're going to try to convince this, this member of this other coven to, you know, at least kind of keep their mouth shut or you know speak up and help you out

You're trying to convince them not to not to get in the way sure so okay So you're gonna take your persuasion stat and you're gonna take Trying to remember what the skill was persuasion might have been the skill But anyway, you're gonna take one of your one of your social stats and then you're gonna take your skill persuasion skill and Each of those things had a a number of dots that you had in it said there would be between one Which like as a skill that means you you have some training, but you you're a beginner Up to five which is like no you're you're an expert in this

For a for a statistic one would be like you you are kind of fucked here Two would be average sure you know three four five you know Or two would be you know low end of average three would be strictly average four and five or exceptional And so you take your stat and your skill you'd add them together And you'd have a pool of somewhere between two if you were really fucked or ten if you were you know a master at it you would roll that many ten sided dice and in this edition the

Game master would have set a difficulty number So like all right this guy is this this guy is already You know you're already kind of chummy right so you the difficulty of this is gonna be like a five Sure, which is which is pretty easy So every die that you rolled a five or higher Was a success and you would count out the number of successes And so what this meant was but every time you rolled a one That took away one of your successes, okay

So if you got really unlike if you rolled a ton of ones you you could wind up not only failing But like getting negative successes sure And so that was a critical failure if you rolled a ten That that counted for two successes, okay And so you'd roll and three successes was the threshold for you have Succeeded at this thing right more than three successes was you do an exceptionally good job one or two successes was you Partially succeed like sure feeling for sure

You're pretty sure he's gonna keep his mouth shut, but he's not gonna help you right would be like one or two successes three successes would be He'll he'll probably speak up and say you know I'll vouch for him Five or more successes be like no this guy's gonna stand it be like you got to do what this guy's saying cuz like You know and so there there was this level of nuance Mm-hmm, and this this range of possibility That the d20 system that we were all you know familiar with from before this did not allow for sure And it also made things really interesting because anytime you got into a competition

You were comparing the number of successes and it lent itself much more to Kind of kind of what what has come to be known as like social combat in in game development, which is like you know your your involved in a in a contest You know with another character and so so this allowed for Where it focused on I shouldn't say it allowed for but it placed more focus on character over linear plot

Okay, yeah and It meant that Within the realm of the game the nature of Your role playing was different. Yeah, and this was it's non cooperative necessarily to like like cooperation to move the plot forward is no longer as important or as prized as your own internal growth. Yes. Yeah. I absolutely see why this is a 1990s created game. I absolutely see why I didn't like this. Yeah, I absolutely see what they were trying to do here. Like they're like,

you know, stuck in the model of like, you need codified rules for determining these things. Yeah. So we've created, you know, moral quandaries, the role playing game. And it's like, instead of just like, that's the part where you don't roll dice, they were like, Oh, no, that's the part that the dice is the part that's critically important for the right. So and, and the the game quickly kind of earned or developed, earned might be a little unfair, but my perception in gaming kind of spaces was that Vampire earned a reputation or gained a reputation of being a game where everybody at the table is just arguing all the time

You know because of because of that focus on on individual character development, and you know that kind of thing And it it honestly it sounds like they put into a rule set Okay, well I I fly up and I drop the thing on you You can't do that because I I have super speed so I got out of the way fly up and I dropped the thing on you. Well, you can't do that because I have super speed. So I got out of the way. OK, but like with your super speed, you can't run over water.

And so I make sure to dam the bridge before we did it. OK, but like I can go under the water with it. It sounds like they codified a schoolyard, two kids not really listening to each other. Yeah, playing imagination and and in in a game that is not run by somebody who is really dedicated to not letting that happen. Right. Or is in a quick unequipped. Yeah, or is an equipment or if you're playing with a group of players who are not quite at the level like I'm I'm I'm gonna say that like to really get the best out of vampire in particular

You really need to have a group That have the maturity to recognize the game. we are playing is going to be grim. Right. And not in a look how cool we are kind of grim. It's going to be in a I am staring into the abyss at every moment of this experience. and and what we are looking for is you know some kind of lesson in resisting that or you know, there's there there has to be a level of Philosophical and an emotional buy-in. Absolutely. Yeah to that

And normally that kind of buy-in is what exists between the dice rolls not to cause the dice roll not yeah It is really hard to buy into that and then just be a slave to the dice. Yeah, and and If you don't have a group That's there for that What you wind up getting is Mm-hmm what you wind up getting is Or can be because I don't I don't want to sound like I'm being derogatory to people who are passionate vampire players but what you can fall into is

Murder hoboing with with extra steps You know yeah, and and You know you can you can encounter and the way the culture has moved on hobo with no downtime It's really what it is. Yeah, really? Yeah, but okay, so since the 90s since since the 90s Just the way our culture has developed around You know it has has has evolved in terms of ideas like consent mm-hmm and

and you know awareness of You know the creep factor of Certain kinds of ideas like yeah, you would have a really hard time today Doing an adult targeted mind control story. Yes. That was not immediately looked at by a general audience like this thing is so full of red flags. It's a Maoist parade. Like what the fuck man? You know? Yeah. Yeah. but but in the 1990s There that that what that had not developed yet. Well, yeah in the 90s. Yes means yes and So now you've got a game where you can compel a yes

Like there's there's those things there's those aspects to it. Yeah. Yes. Yes, and I witnessed that at my own table Yeah, and looking back on it I'm like, oh Steve god why yeah, you know and I mean I know why because he was a 17 year old boy like It was in the games that you know, you guys were playing like yeah, you know, yeah But you know, he was a 17 year old boy in the 90s with no you know context for sure thing You know You know I look back at the time. I was like. I don't know why that bothers me now I'm like I know exactly why that bothers me What the actual fuck?

But you know So so I and now if you look at the most recent editions of the game Because it's gone through I want to say it's at land. It's fifth edition. I think the most recent one there are whole sections in In the rule book that are about okay look as a game master

This shit is going to be problematic And at your table you need to have conversations about how far Are we all comfortable going with this because this is? heavy this is dark and you know There there is a new culture Mm-hmm in gaming Around those things, you know in in Dungeons and Dragons people talk about you know setting table rules and

Dungeons and Dragons people talk about, you know, setting table rules and veils and I don't remember what the other one is, but there's like, okay, you're going to do this thing. And we've all agreed that when that happens, we're just going to, you know, me's on scene. We're going to move on, you know, dissolve to something else going on over here or no, we've all agreed that's not something we're going to do at this table You know it's it's veils and boundaries or veils and walls or something like that and like that's a that's a part of game Mastering right right that didn't exist in 1991 no right no And part of that is because back then the gaming community was much less diverse

Yeah, you know my own my own table as it were was made up of a group of all white all essentially middle class though varying parts of the middle class white boys You know and straight white boys, you know, and so like We were all coming from kind of roughly the same worldview Mm-hmm. There was no reason for us to have that conversation. There was no reason for us to recognize why What Steve was doing there was fucked up. Well, there was an agreed upon culture Yeah, without needing to talk about it. Like that's

Homogeneity like that's the advantage of homogeneity You know, so yeah, but on top of that like There was almost this belief or this this idea at least in the games that I was in Yeah, that if somebody was running the game they were doing everybody a service Yeah, so this is part of the ticket price Yeah, you you don't like this part of this game. Then you should have run your own game You should have run it for everybody now that you didn't you got to get through this Yeah, which you know money and you takes your chance Yeah which is weird because like

You absolutely get to stand up and leave any fucking table you want at any time for any reason Yeah, but yeah there was but you know again back then you're not gonna find any gaming groups So yeah, yeah, and and the idea that you know you can just get up and leave right culturally We didn't talk about no You know, we didn't talk no means no. Well, yeah, that's what it was. It wasn't yes means. Yes. I'm sorry Go back to you know, like ten minutes ago. The culture was no means no Which was a step in the right direction? Yes it was it was a it was a as as

Professor Cruz has told told us it was it was one in a series of problematic steps for right, right? But like yes means yes is so much more powerful and so much yes Yes, good thing. I love that development, but back when we were growing up. It was no means no Yeah, you didn't say and then in this game you could compel people not to say no Yes, yeah, so I apologize for my misspeak earlier. Yes. Yeah So, you know and and that You know, I I would I would say that vampire In some ways I think it might have been advantageous to

the development of the world of darkness if one of the other games had come first Yeah, I can see that. And that's solely because They all were moving, all of them involved more adult kind of ideas and more more sophisticated themes But the specific themes that were involved in vampire again, I would say you really need to be in an advanced level group of role players Mm-hmm to To make it work the way it was designed to Mm-hmm, and I just don't know how much the culture as a whole was ready for that

Yeah And I mean, that's me with a really cold hot take. No, it's important one to acknowledge, you know, and, you know, and I mean, if there's anybody listening to this, who, who, you know, disagrees with me, you know, by all means, you know, go to our website, you know, say something about it, let us know. Sure. And I'm and I, you know, something about it. Let us know sure and I'm and I you know I I would be

Totally up for having that discussion You know cuz I'm I'm just a guy But you know I'm a guy with a whole lot of experience doing this thing so that's that's kind of where I'm coming from sure you know and so vampire wound up Going on to become a huge, massive hit because vampires had become cool and the goth subculture was growing. And because of the different tone of it and the different experience of playing the game

It took off and We got a whole series of books talking about the different clans of vampires And so like in Dungeons and Dragons you have a class that says this is what you do You're the fighter you stand up front in heavy armor, you're the wizard, you stand back and you know, blow shit up. Sure. In vampire, the closest thing to that. And again, because we're talking about character stuff, not plot driven. It is it is less about a job or a role in the party. you know more about this is this is These are your characters supernatural powers and they come from your characters heritage and all that kind of stuff sure But so you had your your clan and like clan Tremere were all descended from wizards and so they had

kind of proto magical Elemental kind of powers they were the vampires that with their signature ability they could summon a mist or Light candles without doing anything or snuff candles without doing any that kind of stuff that spooky thaumaturgy stuff the ventrue vampires had the ability to dominate There was an ability of vampires. They they're the ones who can look somebody in the eye, right? I have that Dracula, you know hypnotic, you know, you're gonna do I tell you

You know and and so you you had unless they run into Tom Morello who has extra resistances Yeah, I know I won't do what you told me damn, right Who by the way, I just it just occurred to me that would be like such an amazing concept for a hunter character Is being Tom Morello? Yeah. Well, you know, yeah actually I would totally cast Tom Morello in that role sure Like you know the whole world is being run by fucking according to the lore right you know the Vampires you know have all these positions in high-ranking you know places in society And they you know manipulate things from the shadows of their supernatural abilities

Which then kinds of brings us back to what she talked about at the beginning of last episode Yeah, I was like oh so start sounding a little bit like blood libel am I part of the Henry Ford clan like what's going on here? Are they raging against my machines like Yeah, yeah, so you know and and again these are these are elements that like at the time nobody really thought about but Like that's kind of when you think about it from from certainly the lens that you and I applied everything it's like That looks really really fucking problematic now, can we have a conversation about that you know yeah? and so You know it it really fucking problematic now. Can we have a conversation about that? Yeah. And so, you know,

but there was all of this really compelling lore that got developed and it was part of this very deeply developed world. And so it took off, became a huge hit, and succeeded enough that White Wolf was then able and So it took off became a huge hit and you know Succeeded enough that white wolf was then able to go on and keep putting out the rest of the games in the series Okay, so you so how many vampire clans were there? to start with No, there's more than that I

Didn't put that down in my notes. I'm trying to remember what the number was Ventura bruja Ravnos In nose for Ratu Torreya door I'm amazed I can remember is that Tremere I Already mentioned Prussian already mentioned ventrue Is gangrel one of them gangrel. Thank you sure so there were at least eight or nine okay, so

And Yeah, but there was all of this and and then and then the the vampire nine okay, so And Yeah, but there was all of this and and then and then the the vampire book teased What was to come in the in the new games because the back of the vampire book talked about okay? So you're gonna run into other Super Naturals, and this is what a werewolf looks like Cool, this is what a wizard looks like. This is, you know, these, you know, evil spirits are like this. And so, like, even in that first book you were able to look at and go like, oh, oh, there's more to this than just this.

Right. I will have to buy more books. Yeah, well, yeah. Especially if you're a compulsive collector like me. Right. But very beginning I looked at the back of the vampire book and I was like Okay, I'm gonna hold on to my allowance money until mage comes out because that looks awesome. Okay But even in that first book there was this like there's a whole world here, right? And that wound up being the thing that hooked me Okay, not vampire But was the broader world that they had built sure and what I was from the very moment I got to the back of the vampire book what I was looking forward to mm-hmm

And that's where I'm gonna leave it here good place to leave it. All right So what's your takeaway? my takeaway actually is I'm gonna hit pause cuz I want you to see this video. Okay. I mentioned the gangrel Yeah, that was the the Remember I I worked at virtual world. There were people that were into the shit. They dressed up. It was weird I didn't go for it But they tried to sell me on it and one of the things that sold me on it was the gangrel are apparently like a moral

I'm more feral or nature based. Yeah kind of living in the in the wilderness I was like well, there's at least that right because I was like I don't want to play a fucking Fantasy game where I'm stuck in a city. Yeah. Okay. So, but anyway, Gangrel, it touched this off. I'm going to pause and I want you to watch this video. I want your response. Okay. So just because we have a quota and there's contractually obligated. Yes. So when you said Gangrel, I immediately went to the 1997 wrestling superstar who brought Edge under his thrall and Edge's little brother Christian joined them.

Now Edge and Christian are One of the most successful tag teams in wrestling history edge is one of the most successful champions in all of wrestling history He is legendary like he really he Is for you to know different guy He works pro bono, um... Well done. Thank you. So Gangrel helped launch these guys. They only stayed together for like a year. Gangrel ends up getting booted out of the brood.

But their music is some of the most amazing wrestling entrance music. There is a... There's a real remarkable... Yeah. There's a real remarkable... There's a real remarkable... There's a real remarkable... is some of the most amazing wrestling entrance music. Like there is a, there is a. There's a real remarkable mood going on. Just in the very beginning where you hear the,

oh, jush, jush, jush, oh, jush, jush. And it's in both your ears. And then the ding, ding, ding, and then the brrr. Like there's so much of it that just. It's, it's, it's, it's it's it's enough it it kind of hurts Yeah, and then but with their presentation coming up through the fire So they're coming up out of hell and and all this stuff. Um the long coats. Yes The bedazzled look at rhinestone details on the edges. It's all so it's it's it's it's very vampire the flowy white shirts

Yep. Yep. Yeah So tight torn jeans. Yeah, very short period of time in wrestling history for this group to exist But it is still iconic to this day like to the point where when edge had his I think it was his last match Or in at WrestleMania a couple years ago Leading up to it. There were a bunch of different pay-per-views where he came out to a different version of his own entrance And one of them was the brood entrance So just and people lost their fucking shit anyway Just pointing out vampires have been a part of pro wrestling

What got me about that what what the thought that went through my head as I as I watched them Coming coming out and coming down on stage The line from Chris Rock in Jane Silent Bob strike back mm-hmm George Lucas gonna sue somebody Oh man white wolf is gonna sue somebody right you know Name just like that name and that that gimmick like how I Probably just because they didn't have the budget for the lawyer to do it Yeah, yeah

It's very clearly influenced by the dudes name was gangrel like clearly somebody in WWF corporate at the time was like I Heard about this gamebook, you know my kid Well, I heard about this game book, you know my kid Something and you know in high school. He's got this thing going on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No Definitely. So so there you go. All right, so that's my takeaway is that oh cool. Just like the wrestler But But yeah, no, I'm very curious as to how because there's there's mage and then there's werewolf

And is there some sort of fairy thing too? Yes changeling. Okay changeling. Okay Yeah, I'm curious I'm genuinely curious So, um curious I'm genuinely curious so um yeah yeah I think that's about it so cool what are you gonna ask people to take in this week I'm going to very strongly recommend that folks look for forever night mm-hmm I believe it's available on a streaming service but I don't remember which one if if you can find it I highly recommend it you may or may not be a vampire fan but it's it's a really well done show it is occasionally cheesy It was a Canadian production in the early 90s so for a modern audience the effects are

Not great But the storytelling is amazing. The acting is very strong. It's it's great tv It's it's just really really good tv. I highly recommend it Um as an example of what can be done uh with these kinds of stories so That is my recommendation. How about you? Uh, let's see this week. I am going to recommend. I'm just looking for the title again

There we go There we are No, it disappeared I am going to recommend that honestly that people go and Watch the entrance for the brood Ultimately But yeah led by gangrel since I lost track of the the title is gonna recommend for you But watch that and then also after you watch that watch edges And then also after you watch that watch edges brewed entrance from a couple years back

all right, and just see how people react to it because That group never got out of the mid card, but that didn't matter. It stayed like top in our hearts so All right, but actually you know what I am gonna I'm gonna recommend People no no no well we've still got a few weeks out before I recommend that. Okay. All right. Cool. So, cool. Where can you find us? We collectively can be found on our website at www.geekhistorytime.com

where we have three, by the time this comes out, it'll be probably 310 or so episodes in our archive. Find a topic that catches your interest and start from that point. We can also be found on the Amazon podcast app on the Apple podcast app and on Spotify, wherever you do find us, please take a moment to subscribe if you haven't done so already and please give us the five-star review That you know we deserve Now where can you be found sir?

You can find me at the Comedy Spot with capital punishment on May 2nd June 6th and July 11th May 2nd, June 6th, and July 11th, 9 p.m. Sacramento Comedy Spot in Sacramento. If you go to saccomedyspot.com, click on the link for the calendars, and get your tickets in advance, because we do and often will sell out. That way you're guaranteed a ticket, and that way you can come and buy some of our merch as well, and walk away with some stuff that's fairly unique. We only do one run per shirt for instance, so they're collector's items. And same thing for the pins and the stickers. So, but yeah, so saccomedyspot.com and click on the calendar link and get your tickets. So that's where you can find me. All right. Yeah. So for a Geek History of Time, I'm Damian Harmony.

And I'm Ed Blalock. And until next time, keep rolling tens.