A Geek History of Time - Episode 317 - White Wolf Part IV That's So Wizard

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

So first and foremost, I think the the addition of pant leggings is really when you start to see your heroes get watered down You can't even muster the ability to pull straight man that one Which is a good argument for absolute rulers Everybody is gonna get behind either of them and the support numbers will go through When you hang out with the hero, it doesn't go well for you. My grandfather took the cob and just slid it right through the bar. Okay. And that became the dominant way our family did it.

Okay. And so, in both of my marriages, they were treated to that. Okay, wait, hold on. Yeah, rage haiku. How do you imagine the mother chicken would feel? My grandmother actually vacuumed in her pearls. Oh my god, it all makes sense. We've had the sexual revolution. It might have just been a Canadian standoff.

We're gonna go back to 9-11. Dude, get over it. Nobody understands what the bill of rights is going to do. Agra has no business being that thick. With the cultists when we all win. This is a Geek History of Time. Where we connect Nurgery to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher at the middle school level here in Northern California.

And this week I started my favorite unit of the year in my seventh grade classes. My favorite unit, not my favorite lesson, my favorite lesson, of course, is the Black Death because as I tell my students, I'm fueled by your suffering. My favorite unit, of course, if some of you may remember from our episodes a little bit ago is Medieval Japan, which I know an awful lot about. It was one of the focuses of my study, getting my bachelor's degree in history. And I love this unit and I hate this unit because I have to gloss over and, and simplify so much because I'm teaching, of course, at the middle school level.

So it's, it's, it. So it's an emotional challenge. So that's what I have going on. How about you? Well, I'm Damian Harmony. I am a US history teacher at high school level up here in Northern California. And I, let's see, how do I put this? I am a verbal flirt. I always have been.

I flirt with just about everybody, as you well know. And I always do it as just for funsies. I was texting with a friend of mine who is married to another friend of mine. And she is, as of of this recording she is very pregnant as of the release I think the child may be extant but either way I'm sorry I just I love I love that turn of phrase the child may be extant so okay. She sent me a picture of the CEO of Blue Sky wearing a shirt that said,

Mundus sine caesarebus, which was a direct shot across the bow of Zuckerberg wearing one saying, Out nullum, out zuck, which is really out caesar, out nullus, out zuck, which is really out kaisar, out nullus, right? And it might have been out, out zuck, out nullum, which means either Caesar or nothing. OK, so either Zuckerberg or nothing. Now, Zuckerberg has a tremendously troubled past with his love of Augustus for all the wrong reasons.

So it's articles have been written about it. I used to use it to like open up my AP class, like just talk about propaganda, stuff like that. Oh, the woman from Blue Sky, her shirt, same style, but it said, you know, mundus sine caesaribus, which means a world without Caesar's, which, oh. And so I responded with, oh my God, she's hot. And my friend of course took this the right way,

meaning the fact that she's wearing that. And then I said, speaking of hot women, how you doing? And so, and truth be told, she is very beautiful and rightly called hot. But also, I would have said that to literally any friend of mine. But I just love that I have friends who absolutely just accept that this is part of talking to Damien. It's kind of like how Wyatt Earp regarded Doc Holliday in Tombstone.

That's just his way. So it was pretty darn funny that that was my very, very clumsy transition to just asking how a person was. And on occasion she listens to this podcast. So here's hoping that she knows who I'm talking about There you go, yes anyway Last we talked you had taken us from vampires to werewolves

We were getting into magic. Yeah, we were getting into the the practice of magic and ideas about magic in specifically in the West the the kind of Western canon, if you will, of magic and sorcery and particularly sorcerers and you know, how those ideas had developed right and I believe I had left off talking about Medea Morgan Le Fay Searcy And and female magicians, right? specifically And so now we're gonna we're gonna jump if I recall in time if I recall female musicians female magicians If I recall, female musicians, female magicians,

tended toward a certain type of magic and a certain judgment toward that magic, whereas male magicians tended toward a different type. So the female magicians tended toward herbs, ointments, and things that transformed you, whereas the male magicians did book learning and things that you would transform yourself by Yeah, that's a good good kind of comparison yeah the the the the women who were attributed to have Magical abilities or who were figures out of legend with magical abilities Had again as you said it was herbal or it was potions.

It was ungence and that kind of stuff. And they inflicted shape change on others. Right. More often than they change shape themselves as a rule. Yes. Whereas, you know, there are stories out of the Celtic tradition of figures like Gwydion and Mathmatlonwi and Merlin. Right. And then in the Finnish tradition, Vainamoinen, these figures doing the shape shifting themselves, speech is a very big deal the spoken word and language and And like you said, you know with historical figures, yeah, they can and John D Bacon was was attributed magical powers right because of his great learning and Sugacity, yeah John D called himself an occultist was a believer in mysticism and was a

Practitioner of these arts and neither was drowned to see if they were No, okay. No they they never got ducked Yes, and and I didn't I didn't really get into which hysteria or any of that stuff But yeah, it's it's it's worth noting that there is this gender divide and this attribution of Much more sinister overtones to female magicians in the Western tradition now again My my knowledge on such things is very limited, but if I recall correctly, only women were seen

to give the evil eye in like Roman history. It becomes an Orientalized thing as Europe progresses, digresses, ingresses, regresses, but addresses. All the aggresses. Yes, aggresses for sure. But so then it could be effeminate Jafar type characters, right, so where they are mystics from like, not dervishes, because those are still muscular manly ones,

but like the effeminate studying Eastern, you know, Persian. Figures like that Yeah, and those kinds of guys could also maybe also do that which effeminize the more which again goes along with the Orientalism of the time but I remember prior to that it was women that were the only ones that did the evil eye Yeah, and there's this isn't just a Western thing either in many many cultures Yeah, and there's this isn't just a Western thing either in Many many cultures. I think you know because you know patriarchy is a hell of a drug Throughout all kinds of cultures

women especially older women who are either widowed or never married You know who are living independently and who don't fit into the neat categories of, you know, roles that are defined for women in their societies kind of accrete these suspicions or these overtones. You know, society kind of doesn't know where to put them. And, and so in, in societies all over the world, we have, you know, this idea of, you know, older women, uh, having, you know, supernatural connections and the evil eye being a thing. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's widely, uh,

attributed to being a feminine thing, but it's not universal. There are many cultures in which certain male figures also need to be watched out for this. But yeah, in the Western tradition, it's a very, very, very much a feminized thing, for sure. And since we're on the topic of patriarchy. I'm gonna now get into sword and sorcery fiction Because where else are you gonna go? Yeah, by the way, would you prefer I named this episode or the last episode which is be crazy? Oh

Damn we'll have to talk about the air I guess that's that's good oh yeah that's good now I'm gonna put it in the last one because we talked a lot about the the women so okay okay so sword in the storm sword and sorcery sword and sorcery as a genre now we've talked about Robert E Howard we've talked about Conan and He isn't really the Inceptor of the genre, but he is very much the codifier of it. Okay And and it's in the 1920s and 30s that we really see the beginnings of the genre

And I have in my notes he's Howard is the standard bearer and codifier. And in Howard's work, wizardry is tied to book learning, which is tied to either religion, the wizards in his fiction, or either priests of Mitra, which is a modification of Mithras, who are their their spell casters of a pro-social bent they are white wizards they are you know healers and seers and defenders against demons and darkness and this kind of thing okay they worship false Billy idols nice they perform white weddings. Yeah, I like it. They divine which is the great day Okay

Okay, you know what? Their little sisters now starting to get a little bit pissed off What have I done? And now and now we're back and now we're back to not being mad again Yeah, so My mouth gets me into and out of trouble It's just a matter of if people stop listening or not like Just not doing phrasing anymore

So well, okay. Have you ever been in an argument with your with your Significant other your wife in this instance and like she wants to just end the argument so she flashes you? Um, no. No? Oh my god. That isn't something that's happened. Dare her to do that. Be like, next time we're in an argument you don't want to be a part of, honey, just flash me. I guarantee you that shit will work. I have tried.

Oh yeah, no, it'll end the argument instantly. Yes! I have tried to keep the anger and it is like trying to keep an erection when you just saw like a baby run over by a garbage truck. Like it's just not gonna happen. Like these are two things that just, no, they will not work together, right? Like I forgot what we were arguing about like and this yeah And this has happened through my life by the way I just you would think that as irritating as I am you'd think people would want to stop arguments more often but Yeah, you'd think yeah

Yeah, no with with lee We don't argue that much like we we Cuz cuz we didn't like we didn't know you can do each other as complete people. Yeah that yeah, yeah I know what that's like now, you know We both had enough had enough life experience that when we met each other one of the first things we did was like Okay, what is the what is your absolute worst character trait? and and I'll tell you mine and like if that's a deal breaker for either one of us we're done and To be honest, I don't even remember what we said to each other because we both went. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I can work with that

That's fine. Cool. You know, I think mine was something about being an arrogant prick, but You know which like yeah, duh But yeah, so we don't we don't fight that much and my my friar long-term partner was entirely to What I'm looking for stuck in herself To ever think of doing anything like that right right there. There was not enough. You know humor Sure humanity warmth. I don't know what I'm thinking of here

Like Yeah, anyway, that's the whole story for never. Right. Yeah, certainly for all not on the air. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah So we have we have the priest of Mitra sure On the one end of spell casters, you know, we're getting back to the point. End of spellcasters, you know, we're getting back to the point. On the pro-social end of spell, I would like to point out that I derailed you by merely mentioning your wife flashing you. Well, yeah, I think it's going to work great for her if she ever does. Yeah. Yeah. If we ever do have an actual argument. Yeah. Right.

So Mitra on the left. Yeah. Yeah And they're there again pro-social Defensive what in in the West we have The the development of the this idea of a duality of white magic and black magic. Mm-hmm where anything that is defensive anything that is For for the acquisition of beneficial knowledge Okay, anything that is, you know light side of the force. Yeah, it's essentially yeah

It's light side of the force kind of stuff whereas curses hexes You know causing damage to mean you know where others that kind of thing yeah that kind of stuff. That's all black magic Yes, and so in in Conan's universe the the dark magicians are the cult of set Okay, and Fawf Amon Is a particular recurring individual sorcerer Who is portrayed?

I think particularly effectively in the Dark Horse comics Conan series from now 20 years ago but and and so They they both of these groups, you know on the one hand you have the good guys on the other hand you have the bad guys They gain their abilities through either priestly You know kind of kind of divine some kind of connection to the divine sure or through arcane book learning and you're reading

the right books or the the wrong books basically yeah yeah okay yeah but they're both bookie they're both bookie okay they, OK. They're both way bookie. Like, you know, 30 to 1 odds bookie. Right. And so in any event, because this is study and accumulate, studying accumulated knowledge over time, this is very heavily tied to civilization, which everybody who's paying attention at home and took notes like good students,

you will remember that when we talked about Conan Right we talked about Howard Civilization was decadent And that's where the prostitutes are yes like if you're going to go get some bookie knowledge You got to go see a man about his whores Wow Okay Yeah, no Wow Okay and

and so magic like civilization Has this capacity like the priests of Mitter are generally pretty cool dudes, but anybody else who is depicted as a wizard of any kind Is very often a corrupt sure Feminized Foreign foreign eyes, you know clearly non-western kind of kind of archetypes Looks like Mandarin against Iron Man from the early comics. Oh Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah very much. I know the type yeah Yeah, very much.

I know the type. Yeah. Anybody who's read, you know, anything from Marvel comics from especially the 60s knows. Yeah. Well, 100 percent the type. Yeah. And these wizards in in Conan and in other swords and sorcery kind of novels. Wizardry works indirectly. We don't see wizards fleeing magic missiles. We don't see wizards calling down fire out of the heavens. There's not direct damage.

Wizards don't throw lightning in these stories. Okay. Do they like cook your brains or anything? Like do you see like smoke coming out of people's eyes, that kind of shit? No, what they usually wind up doing is they use illusions, they use curses, poisoning. Sure, charms, I assume.

Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, affecting people's minds. Right. Clouding people's minds to keep them subservient or sleepy. sleepy right slowing them down so that they don't land the fatal blow Yeah, yeah There's there's especially in in howards depictions of them

There's a lot of Narcotic kind of effect Like when you're when your're in sore soled you are they are sapping your strength your will whether your psychic strength or your physical strength is being sapped and howard died what in 33?

35? I want to say yeah one of those two so as we're getting into seeing heroin it's being used by the way episodes 47 So as we're getting into seeing actual heroin, Yeah. It's being used. By the way, episodes 47 through 50, for anybody who wants to go back and listen to the Conan stuff, it was, I believe, right after the pandemic hit.

Yeah. Yeah, it was the very beginning of us doing this review. Yeah. I think actually that was our first one after reflecting on the pandemic. So. I think you're right. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So, uh, but okay. So this is Howard's doing it in, in the thirties or up into the thirties. And again, heroin is a big deal. Um, and the DEA was not what it is now. Uh, it really exist. I think it's still treasury was still going after alcohol for the most part. And you get that kind of Bacchanalian aspect to speakeasies and stuff like that.

People dancing and smoking the reefer. And again, decadence and the attenuating effect of civilization on virility and manfulness. And also non-whiteness. Because the drugs that were associated of civilization on virility and manfulness. Non-whiteness, because the drugs that were associated with the things that you're talking about were things that were kind of attributed to the black jazz players.

They were attributed to, you had opium dens. And then you had- Which were depicted almost universally as being a very Chinese right thing, but then when you got to heroin then you have other foreigners bringing it in too Yeah, it was very much an Italian thing Largely due to their connection in the Mediterranean to Turkey and Crete and places like that. Yeah So you have this anti and again in the 30s,

Italians are still not white. So you have this attribution of these kinds of drugs to non-white people and therefore it's easy to effeminize them. And that just adds another layer. And you can also go into some queer coding there. Oh, very much. Yes. No sober straight white man would ever let himself do that. He would use it. So, yeah.

Yeah. And and it's interesting that you mentioned the queer coding bit because there's there's one villain in in Howard's work in the story, the red nails, which I know I mentioned when I when I talked about Conan previously And there are there are two villains in that story, right? and they lead a fighter squadron if I recall correctly and Boy, I wish no No, there's there's a female. There's a there's a villainess Who is not?

There's a villainess who is not sorceress really, but she has kind of a bewitching kind of aura about her. And she is weirdly and disturbingly fascinated with Conan's female companion. Because Robert Howard, for whatever reason, Robert Howard had a phobia of the idea of lesbianism specifically and I'd like didn't have mommy issues too. He really did I think maybe he Did he saw mommy kissing mrs. Claus? Maybe I don't know I don't know but anyway, and then there is and then in the very Like penultimate, you know moments of the of the story it's revealed that there's you know yet another villain who is you know who has been separated from both sides of this eternal war going on in this

ruin and anyway he has a wand that's capable of causing paralysis okay so he has he has a magic wand but it's not really Strictly a magic wand because this is where Robert E Howard actually starts getting into kind of Jack of antsy and weird weird fiction territory because Conan figures out that There's a there's a pillar or a or an altar in the center of the room where he's fighting this guy and Conan figures out that The wand only works if you're standing between it and the altar

It's a it's a piece of some kind of ancient. Okay, you know ancient decrepit civilizations technology Right and he figures out the trick and then you know guts the villain like a fish Once he once he figures out that he just can't Get between the guy and the altar in the middle of the room Man like people's understanding of electricity back then Like just kind of interesting. Yeah, he was probably he was probably on that kind of right trip when he was thinking like Like in his head that was probably kind of what he was what he was picturing what he was kind of imagining certainly um, and so Thinking like like in his head that was probably kind of what he was what he was picturing what he was kind of imagining

certainly and so We're I'm sorry were wizards also like physically I don't want to just say corrupted but like also deformed or Disabled in some way But frequently so there's that too. So yeah. Yeah, and this and this it makes sense Yeah, yeah this this particular figure was Kind of golem coated oh Maybe a way to describe it, you know was you know hunched and and and pat pallid and right, you know

Had been had been stuck in in dark places away from the Sun for too long kind of thing And so other sword and sorcery authors Like Clark Ashton Smith and Fritz Lieber They they they followed this trend in their own writing. This is these became the tropes surrounding wizardry The wizard is almost never the hero, right? Now Jack Vance writes a couple of stories that stand out here and I'm gonna talk specifically about Vance here in a minute but sorceresses are all femme fatales okay want to lure heroes to their doom

through magic and sex and wizards are all physically feeble next to the protagonists Okay, so sure, you know the the hero is a swordsman or a barbarian king or a Wandering knight right somebody with martial capabilities. Yes somebody with martial capabilities Manful virile vigor You know these these are the traits that are typically associated with your sword and sorcery hero. Interesting that like that's the case in Howard's writing because at the time that he's writing,

we don't have the Civilian Conservation Corps building us up yet. You have like 70% of the population is malnourished. And wow, that's okay. nourished. And wow, that's okay. And so, yeah, wizards rely on tricks. Right. And dominion, like tricks to get them to dominating people. Yeah. And like I mentioned, Fritz Lieber as one of the, one of the authors in this genre.

And I love, I absolutely love Lieber's work There's there's a lot about it now that like you're really clear exactly whose audience was who he was writing for in the sure his 40s and 50s like This is going into a magazine that is read mostly by men between the ages of you know 13 and 30 yeah, I was gonna say 15 and 25 but yeah Joe Rogan fans yeah people who think Charlie Kirk is smart yeah I wish I could disagree they're they're really great adventure stories but the I will I will say I love them I recommend people read them, but prepared that they are a product of their time and

In in the case of Lieber they are Horny in a very particular kind of Adolescent straight boy way Okay, so yeah keep that in mind Yeah, so But but one of his two main protagonists he has is to two main characters that we follow through their Adventures and misadventures and they're Fafard and the gray mouser Okay, and Fafard is a pretty typical sword and sorcery hero. He is a big burly, very

strong, also very very agile, very quick. He's not, he's not, you know, a slow bruiser, but he's the big strong tall guy with the, you know, Viking complexion and all the muscles and then his companion is the gray mouser who is slight smaller he's the quick-witted one he's the he's the the dexterous one he's the sneak thief okay yeah and he's also an apprentice magician one of one of the one of the very first stories is about him Escaping from the clutches of his master. Oh Wow, okay, and so he knows about magic. He almost never uses it because in

Lieber's universe Magic is inherently corrupting. There are two wizard figures who loom very large in the background of the Fafard Grey Mouser stories, and one of them is kind of the sponsor of the two of them, who sends the two of them off to, you know, it's like, okay, look, I'll pay the two of you to go, you know, fetch me this magical artifact from this place and come back. And that's the MacGuffin for, you know, them getting into trouble. Sure. And you never, you never see the wizard's face, but every so often when the light goes under the wizard's hood, you can see that they have multiple shimmering eyes inside the hood.

Or, you know, the cloak will move aside and they'll see, you know, a tentacle or a tendril, you know, reaching out where you'd assume a finger to be, right? And and so again magic is the purview of people who are willing to undergo this level of corruption Right. Okay. You know the idea is either their sponsor was always an alien of some kind sure or years and years and years of being a magician has Years and years and years of being a magician has turned them into yes And so that's that's a really really kind of on-the-nose example of that kind of trouble. Yeah. Yeah And so I want to I want to put a pin in that idea of strong warriors feeble wizards for now And we're gonna we're gonna come back to that but now we got to talk about Gandalf Gandalf the gray and well yes, and then Gandalf the white. Oh, that's right. Yeah, so

Now in the context of what we're talking about it's important to remember That Tolkien's work is a straight-up rejection of modernism and industrialism. Yes And it is shaped just as much by his disdain for Industrialization and the modern world as it is by his Catholicism Like and there's and there's no way you can like you cannot convincingly argue that his Catholicism was not a factor in his writing We can we can argue back and forth until the cows come home anybody who wants to with me I will happily engage in this debate, you know as long as you pay for the beer You know we can argue about

The the Lord of the Rings as Christian allegory we can totally do that, okay What what is I do know I what I do not believe is arguable is it is very clearly influenced by His Catholicism okay, okay and so because of these factors Tolkien created a world in which the forces of good and evil

fight using supernatural might to create to empower and to motivate their forces and his greatest villain is known amongst other titles as the necromancer of Dol Guldur and That villains main minion is a witch king Okay so so Wizards, you know wizard wizard us sorceress right archetypes, right? Right against these malevolent sorcerers sorcerers stands

Gandalf right literally an angel in the body of an old man Gandalf can summon fire and throw it yeah he casts off the poisoned words of Saruman when facing Theoden yeah you know very very famously you know they come into the room and grimoire tongue who? Isn't Himself a wizard but who is somehow empowered by Saruman he's like a familiar He kind of is yeah, that's that's a really good

I I had never kind of twigged to that connection, but that's a really good way of describing it You know what gave me that idea Star Wars books Okay, the yu zhan wong sir works. Yeah nice So so grima actually green worm tongue is really interesting kind of kind of case study of magic being kind of kind of used or manipulated somehow by mortals in in Tolkien's world because Grima Wormtongue is not a Maya like Saruman and Gandalf both are

He's a mortal human But his words Carry hypnotic power. Right. And in the books, there's this kind of ambiguity about is it just that he's capable of being so very ingratiating that people want to listen to him? Or how much of his sway over theodons mind is Sorceress You know is somehow supernatural. That's interesting because there's a character like that in Star Wars in episode 7 8 9 Mm-hmm. Yeah, Ben

Yeah, like if you look at like he I mean he's absolutely all about I'm gonna squeeze your mind and see what shakes out I'm gonna you know, you yank you toward me do all this cool shit but also The time that he almost gets ready to crack Doesn't use the force at all That's true just reads her and knows exactly how to pierce her heart with his words Then he does that over and over again how to pierce her heart with his words.

And he does that over and over again. That's true. So, you know, he embodies both Grima and Saruman. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so much could have been done with those characters. That wasn't. Darn it. So so Grima is kind of a minor

Minor magician right in a way, and he is Again, it's interesting this comes up again Because Tolkien is drawing from from the same subconscious Well, he's pulling on this on the same Jungian kind of kind of ideas right as Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E Howard and Fritz Lieber Wormtongue is physically weak you know he's surrounded by the horsemen of the Rittermark who are you know warriors there's a warrior culture and he he's not he's very much this You know, it's it's not portrayed as a feminists II per se but he is this weaker feeble

softer Worm like yeah kind of kind of individual if you punch him he will whimper Yes, like he won't come back at you like he'll whimper and his words will tower yeah, I mean honestly like he is in many ways the archetype of the Chamberlain, who is usually evil and influencing the king. He also reminds me of Ben from Lost, who is the leader.

Did you ever watch Lost? I did not. I missed out on that whole event culturally. I'm rewatching it. So, you know in August I'll finally finish it or some shit, but Then then you'll hear things but okay, I'm looking forward to it Ben is this character who leads the others and He is thoroughly unremarkable in all kinds of ways. But again, he he is he's physically he takes more beatings per episode than anyone else.

Um, he's not physically imposing. He gets his ass kicked regularly, and while he's getting his ass kicked, he whimpers and whines and manipulates you through that and says just the right thing before the punch lands, you know, and so, yeah, Grima is very much like that. So... Yeah, and so we have that on the one side And then we have Gandalf who shows up with a defibrillator and just like you know

Yeah, you know yeah, you know it's a magical defibrillator and defibrillator and the way the way this was portrayed in the movies I think is one of the visually oh I love that scene most most wonderful moments yes in in the trilogy the way that Gandalf and and the party come in and there is sunlight coming in behind them. In a room that should like carry all the light and has been just dark and grimy. Yeah, well, and there's, yeah, grimy, grima, hey. Yeah, I know. A physical embodiment of him.

Yeah, and you know tapestries have been have been dropped down over all the windows and yeah it's been turned into a cave a crypt and yeah yes actually a tomb yeah and and there is there is literal light involved in Gandalf yes dispelling casting off. Yeah the influence of worm tongue with with his staff and So he is a light bearer. Yeah, he is he's Lucifer. Yes Which has its own set of connotations But and and

he so so one of one of the magical acts that we see him do is an act of True, you know conceptually speaking white magic, which is he's casting off whatever dark Sorcery it is that that you know Grima has has laid on on Theoden And so Gandalf is esteemed by the Eagles and He is the only person that shadow facts will let ride him, right? So there's this connection to the natural world again because Tolkien

Right. Yeah, all that is good is in nature Yeah, yeah and Over and over and over again in the book In the books and in the movie one of the things that that Jackson, you know really did a great job conceptualizing Is Gandalf is consistently connected to the dawn and the Sun? Jackson, you know, really did a great job conceptualizing is Gandalf is consistently connected to the dawn and the sun. Yes. I mean, even in the Hobbit. Yeah. Yes. With the, with the trolls. Yes. Yeah. Um, and so he is, uh,

he, he, he's, he's there, you know, he, he tricks the trolls and right, manages to keep them running around when the Sun comes out and Is silhouetted by the dawn right shows up in those yeah when he shows when he comes back Yeah, it's like a type gone on the fifth day. It's a third day the fifth day. I'm forgetting which right now But you know again it would have to be the third day right I mean it's Tolkien yeah I think I think so but I mean I'm not sure if he didn't Jesus that up yeah and and then you know again in Theodens Hall and then during the battle of Minas Tirith you, and then somewhere far away in the

courtyard of Cock Crowed and the clouds broke and the sun shone through. Right. Like, you know, it's a hard- And then Matt Martigan showed up, you know, crossbows a- You know what, dude? That's a crossover I would pay money to say I would love to see like just just to see Gimli's irritation at that bar again and and and Legolas is kind of like yeah I don't like this guy but he's getting her eyes out of the dwarf so that's irritating as fuck funny

it's funny you know if you're a human I suppose but And and so in a in a spiritual way Gandalf is a light bringer as a guide and a motivator Right for the forces of good. Mm-hmm. And so in a whole lot of ways he is a step back arc typically from sword and sorcery back towards Gwydion and Vyndamoynin, which is unsurprising because Tolkien was like a huge fanboy of Celtic and Finnish folklore and languages. Yeah. And he was trying to make a fairy tale. Like, yeah, that was his thing. So, yeah. a fairy tale like yeah that was his thing so yeah okay so that's lots of guys with magic doing cool shit for the world I know there's not that many women

with the magic doing cool shit for the world no no there are not no now between them Merlin and Gandalf are probably half of the source material for wizards in oh yeah role-playing. It'd be weird if they weren't Yeah, it really would be you know. Do you want pointy or do you want skull skull capped? What do you want like? Looking for here. Yeah, yeah How how long how long a beard the beard right? You know are you are you wearing? Other other clothes like you know a tunic and and and trowze under your robe or you know are you free balling it?

Like you know it's just yeah, you know you got to have the pointy hat in a robe like that's a thing Now the other half of that archetype though mm-hmm all on his own it comes from Jack Vance and Vance Ian magic oh I remember you talking about this I did a bit yeah, so Vance in his works he falls somewhere between fantasy and science fiction right He is very much yeah he is very much a sword and sorcery author but he kind of he plays with a lot of the tropes like his

most notable hero is not a muscle-bound swordsman he's a morally bankrupt con man and thief named Q Gal the clever And So so Vance's magicians are also very different Vance Vance took Weird fiction he looked at you know Robertie how a couple of Robertie Howard stories that are very solidly sword and sorcery in we're in a weird fiction kind of mode And he looked at that went I want to do that only more and So his magicians are also eldritch scientists

Who create clones in the same laboratories where they research ancient spells? create clones in the same laboratories where they research ancient spells. Magic in the dying earth, which is the setting he, he came up with requires hardening of the mentality in order to memorize spells of incredible power that are forgotten when cast owing to the, you know, seventh dimensional math Right nature of what they are right? You can race and all the rights kind of thing yeah You can you can only hold it in your like you there's a certain part of your subconscious has to be

Focusing on keeping the concept in your head and when you let go of it to cast the spell You got to go back and remember rise it so I mean he's spells are sex Kinda yeah, you need a refractory period afterwards. Yeah, you can only hold that concentration so long. Yeah bursts out of you Yeah, yeah based on some of theance's work that really makes sense in a very odd, I hadn't, again, hadn't twigged that. I'll never be able to read those books the same way again.

Thank you for that. That's great. You have to harden your mind. No, I get it. I totally get it. Like you got to, you're in fourth gear and you could just keep going forever. But if you want to get to fifth gear, you got to start thinking of things. Thanks.

I hate it yeah so so wizards in this setting covet the books and research of other wizards because they're passing around porn there you go yeah because knowledge literally is power and and I know where you're gonna go with this next line to a lot of their power also comes for the magical and eldritch tech devices that they build and create I Don't know what you mean Yeah, you're just gonna leave me frustrated on that one Yes in the worst way possible is that what cantrips are it's just

You know god damn it it makes me mad, but now I have to seriously consider Well shit what I don't know yeah all right, so Actually Vance's wizards don't have cantrips so in this in this particular archetype. That's not even a thing well when was he writing oh Starting in the 30s okay. Yeah men didn't know how to edge back then it's fine Yeah, so so one of the head wizards named Kinsey Should be but no He wasn't that enlightened So

Now Vance's wizards aren't just dangerous for curses and illusions like remember in most sword and sorcery You know when you're going up against a wizard it's like okay. Don't trust your eyes, right? You know you're gonna. You know if you start feeling sleepy. You know find a way to you know stick yourself with something sharp to wake up. Yeah, you know you know They're gonna. They're gonna manipulate reality around you. They're gonna. You know in this case No, his wizards will just fucking blast you They they can blast opponents into nothingness with spells like you recognize this the excellent prismatic spray You are really making this easy for me. I mean yes also that's a D&D, but yeah, but yeah, okay, and now god damn it Sexologist subclass here we go

Yeah, so so when a when a Vance Ian wizard decides, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna go in shooting They can open up rifts in space. Okay banish people into one of the underworlds or a pocket dimension There there's a lot of these stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're flashy as hell And they're petty enough that you don't want to fuck with them, right, you know And these Vance in ideas of wizardry are the essential core of how wizards wound up on the tabletop first sure So Spell levels you got you can only memorize these spells you have to memorize them in the morning once you do it's gone

You can always go back to it after you've had a long rest or whatever the game mechanic was but yes It's it's a limiter on the magic which makes perfect sense Given all the things that had Developed that then led to D&D you need yeah, yeah, you need essentially like turn economy Yes, yeah. Action economy. Yeah, would eventually evolved into the action economy. Yeah. So now related to Vance's magicians,

but coming from a different direction. Mm-hmm. That's, and I think an influence on how wizards are viewed by tabletop gamers I don't see this as being a really strong influence on the development of games per se but dr. Stephen strange sure Steve Ditko created the character in 1963 for Marvel and he is a superhero he's a wizard but at his core he's a superhero whose MacGuffin is I'm a magician right right and he defends earth for magical and eldritch threats now

There's a really strong influence from Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith and other weird fiction writers because his villains dr. Strange's villains are all interdimensional universal scale threats right dormammu right from from the movie which most you know What more people will be familiar with because of the MCU? You know this is this is an intellect from you know outside the universe that is you know bent on malevolence, right? Right, it's it's straight out of lovecraft There are also really heavy orientalist vibes involved. Yes. Like lots and lots of Eastern mysticism as experienced through Western eyes.

Yeah, I mean he goes to the ancient one, which in the comics the ancient one was Asian. Yes. And he goes to... Shambhala. Shambhala. That's yeah. Is that the place? Yeah, that's the place. Yeah. No, yeah Yeah, I think yeah, I'm pretty sure it's yeah And all of that both of those things are clearly Responses to pop Buddhism right as it as it became a thing as part of the counterculture There's a high degree of Psychedelia involved in very much. Yeah, which of course it fits the time because the owls yeah But but which is interesting what always was interesting me to it to me with that was that there was one other character who dealt

With a lot a lot of psychedelia in his comics too Hmm, and he had a similar hairstyle But he had a patch over one eye Yeah, very agents of shield like it. Yeah is as psychedelic as not Yeah, it's it's weird like the interesting parallels both guys They keep a lot of secrets and all this kind of shit, but yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I'm sorry Yeah and But yeah, yeah, anyway, I'm sorry. Yeah Yeah and

You know as as kind of an example or kind of you know an explanation partially, you know, the novel Siddhartha Was published in the US starting in 1951 and it became popular with the counterculture of the 60s, right? And so we see in the doctor straight Strange comics, we also see astral travel meditation, you know, how many times do we see him in some kind of very yogic or, uh, you know, Zen Buddhist kind of pose somewhere, you know, over the course of a story. Now he blasts enemies with magical force when he gets into a fight You know he uses magic as a weapon right which is very much akin to Vance's

Magicians and kind of a prelude to what the role of magic users wound up being in Dungeons and Dragons, right? Which brings us to Arnason and Gygax Because I'm always gonna name them in that order, because, god damn it. Arneson and Gygax, mostly Gygax in this case, constructed magic users very specifically to work with a geometric power growth arc, okay. Fighters, as a counter example,

got more powerful on a straighter line, right? And started the campaign at level one fighters had more hit points They were always going to have a better or in this case lower armor class They would always hit more often in melee combat mm-hmm Wizards stayed squishy forever But around about level five they started to reverse the damage relationship. Because it's at level five that you get the two classics of I want to play a wizard in D&D, which is lightning bolt and fireball. Suddenly the magic user in the party has the ability to hit a lot of opponents at once.

For more damage than a fighter was going to be able to inflict right so in first edition Adnd at fifth level as a wizard if you could line up bad guys in front of you You could hit five or six of them easy maybe more more. And you're going to roll five, six sided dice for the managing amount of damage you do to them. You don't have to roll to hit. You just get to me, you just do it. They get to make a saving throw, which back then was a fixed number for, for younger members of our audience who were D&D players or Pathfinder players or whatever. There was no such thing as a save DC, your class and level determined what number you had to beat on a particular saving throw. And the categories were very different. It was very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very was it was very very yeah, it was very Gagaxian And by the way, it was easy to get your bad guys to line up in a single file line

You were in dungeons all the fucking time. Yes, so yes. Oh, hey, we're in a 10-foot wide hallway And I'm going to fling a fireball. That's five feet wide right Shaka, Thum yeah and this is of course where the common meme nowadays of I didn't ask how big the room was Right. I said I cast fireball. I didn't ask where my friends are. Yeah Yeah Um and and depending on on who your DM was and, and how, uh, uh, physics inclined they were, that could either be not really a big deal or you could make yourself some

very serious enemies around the table very quickly. Okay. So you're throwing a fireball. It's supposed to have a 30 foot radius in a room That's only 10 feet wide So that means that explosion is actually gonna get funneled out the doors through the hallway and we got it and you'd stop the My DM would stop the game Yeah to do the calculation of like okay No, the volume of that sphere has to be has to be represented, right?

So yeah to be represented. Right. So yeah. Um, so yeah, but the point here is that that's, that was the point at which wizards started kind of coming into their own and around the same level, the, the first attack spell that you had almost always learned, which was magic missile that started actually doing meaningful damage. Like you throw magic missiles There was no again no to hit roll and by that time it was now doing three die four plus three

which That's comparable to the amount of damage that a fighter is going to be doing with a long with a long sword. Yeah, you know um So now by the time a fighter in um So now by the time a fighter in first edition AD and D has reached the maximum of his progression really a tenth level a Magic user is just getting warmed up Yeah, the fighter then becomes the bodyguard of the magic user Yes, which in meaningful extent inverts the the paradigm completely flips the relationship yeah

At ninth level magic users started getting fifth level spells like cone of cold Which is? You know it's it's cold based damage, which is going to affect different enemies, but you know it's a larger area of effect than fireball right And then also cloud kill The the wall the first couple of wall spells wall of ice wall of iron wall stone our fifth level and animate dead

So, you know that was the which the the wizard in the part of you go no no, no, hold up. We need we need cannon fodder. I'll just animate the the Fill in monstrous creatures. We just we just killed and here we go. Now we have you know shock troops. Mm-hmm And this is also the point at which wizards are starting to get into The ability to really pull the really flashy Vancey and shit of I'm going to contact somebody in another plane of existence. Right. I'm going to pull the party through a portal into the ethereal plane. Right.

You know, the utility spells, I didn't even get into the utility spells because what I was trying to talk about here was the the flippin in in you know combat damage level But at high levels Wizards kind of wound up becoming the main characters In a D&D in a very very big way, right? but No matter how powerful the wizard would get He still had to depend on his fighter or paladin or thief buddies

Right because if so much as a hobgoblin got close enough to smack him with a sword Or if it's a hobgoblin it's more likely to be a morning star, but anyway He was reduced once more to a squishy weakling with a stick and maybe a dagger He was reduced once more to a squishy weakling with a stick and maybe a dagger In first edition ad and D For our younger audience members who are who are not familiar with what this game was like price the restrictions on the other weapons Yeah, getting hit while casting a spell automatically disrupted the spell right used it up Yep, and if you did so if you ran into adventurers, the running plan was kill the wizard first.

Mm-hmm. And, and the tactic, it was, it was like trying to play football. It was figure out, it was like being the manager of a football team, you know, calling, calling plays. It was like, okay, we got to figure out how to get our hitter to the wizard if That means right our Ranger is trying to snipe him Whatever we get we got to hit the wizard we got to hit the wizard and we got to keep hitting the wizard

Yeah, you know and this model wound up this this this archetype this this paradigm Stayed pretty standard palladium fantasy stuck right with it. Yeah All of the other various off-brand D&D clones Ardwin Grimwar and so forth they all stuck with it the first game to depart From this Vance Ian model uh-huh was arse magica Magic ass yeah But that magic do though

Yeah, you know actually Funny funny that you should be the one to make that joke. It's actually supposed to be medieval latin ours ars latin art arts arse magica Yeah Latin art arts arts magic. Yeah Magic art is what it really is. Yeah. Um, so I I think I've told you this before the Latin word for to give is Dara The first person singular of to give is doe D. Oh Okay, however, the Latin third person singular, he does it, right, is dot D-A-T.

Okay. So you could construct a sentence that says art gives, I give, dot arse dough. My students, like of course I wrote it up on the board and I was like, oh my god, and my students like oh my god and then That became a thing for a while and then my students decided one year when they were making the the shirt for latin club We had to have a motto. You always have to have a motto on the back and so their motto they voted it in dat arse dough Now the that's fine because I told him like, oh, we could totally defend that. That's fine because, oh, you don't know Latin.

I'm sorry you think it's that. Where's your mind at? But what we mean is that the art gives, and thus so do I, you know? Yes, yes. But then, you know, you could choose the placement of where those words go. So they put it at the bottom of the shirt,

which hangs over most people's bottoms. It was amazing. I was so proud of the kids that's you should be that's that is that is prime great that is oh so good that's that's yeah yeah the benefits of a classical education oh man oh yeah so yeah ours Magica game I fell madly in Oh Man oh so Yeah, ours Magica game. I fell madly in love with but never got a chance to play right In in ours Magica players actually had more than one character. Oh, okay You'd play one Magus of the order of Hermes Who would be a genuine medieval European wizard in the in the style of Merlin.

Okay. And you would also create and in a given session you might be playing more than one non wizard ally of the Chantry. Chantry was a was a group of wizards who all got together and they all had you know essentially their kind of you know wizards tower set up together and they all had, you know, essentially they're kind of, you know, wizards tower set up, you know, estate, whatever. Um, and so different mortals would have different power levels. So you'd have like two or three, you know, really low level, you know, basic kind of grunt characters. You'd have one elite, uh, I'm not a part of the household, but I'm an ally and I might come along, you know, like sure I'm I'm a knight whose estate is next door to the shanty. So I have more

Wealth and better training and you know as opposed to just like yeah, no, I'm one of the guys in the shanty I'm a servant and my whole job is to act as a bodyguard and that's all I do you know, and then you'd have these kind of different levels of skill different skill levels different stat levels and wizards the the Magi Had the highest they started out with the most character creation points because you had to spend a bunch of character creation points on knowing wizard shit

Okay, yeah, okay And so in this game wizards were acknowledged as being overtly more powerful than other characters sure but The other characters were necessary because the wizards were so reliant on their arcane learning right Like you know they didn't have a whole lot else in the way of skills. You know, I have a friend who is related to Cornell West. Okay. I think he's his nephew or something like that. Or like, you know, they're in the family. Cornell West has come over to his house. Evidently, Cornell West doesn't understand how blinds work, or at

least didn't at the telling of the story. My friend told me years ago and he was just mystified that when you pulled the cord, they turn dudes written 10 books. He's a theologian. He's a brilliant. He's been in the second matrix movie. Like just all these things about him, right? Yeah. Blinds like just, and I, so I just love that the magicians are basically Cornell West yeah actually that's that's well no what it means is Cornell West is a fucking wizard yeah I mean that were you go yeah you know I can't I don't I don't know why we didn't all notice it before I mean look at the guy right right

But so yeah your your wizards and and you could have a wizard who was You know able to defend himself, you know, you could have a wizard who knew how to use a sword You can have a wizard who was that's a big step up from D&D where all you throw were darts Yeah, oh, and they were and and they weren't even like cool little sneaky darts. They were plumbata So you have to carry them in a fucking tote bag. Oh My god, that was weird to me Cuz I was like really young, you know, yeah, I wasn't in middle school like you were but Yeah

Fuck you, man. So Yeah Fuck you, man, so And and so you you could have a wizard like in as you determine how you were putting your character together Mm-hmm your wizard could be very well spoken and capable of interacting with normal people really well sure But if you took that set of skills you were going to have to rely on your bodyguard if if your wizard was able to defend himself physically, he was not going to be the diplomat for your group. You were going to have to be the ally of the ship, the noble who lives next door to the chantry and be like, I need you to talk to these

people because like, I can't, you know? Um, and so, so there was, there was this, this wonderful this wonderful first of all we're seeing the evolution of tabletop role-playing games going on here while This is happening right because this is now much more character focused This is much more story focused rather than I have a set of stats But I'm going to run this set of stats up against a bunch of other sets of stats in a you know Cool was being fight scene like there's so much more going on yeah yeah and so magic in this system or in this game was exhaustively systematized if you learned a rote which is a pre-programmed Memorizable spell uh-huh you never forgot it Okay, I like for example. I am a Magus of house flambeau

So I am I am I'm I'm a What's the word I'm looking for and pyro pyro? a what's the word I'm looking for and pyro pyro pyromancer yeah well pyromancer but you know I'm crazy about fire you know pyromaniac pyromaniac yeah I'm a pyromaniac with supernatural powers right and so I have studied fire like the the the story behind house flumbeau was that they have equated fire and flame as a spiritual purification symbol and tool and you know but but at the same time they're also incredibly short-tempered and capable of great destruction and so anyway I'm a flambeau Magus and so I have memorized a spell to fling a spear.

Literally the name of the name of the road was Lance of Fire. OK. And or pylon actually was pylon of fire. So Javelin of Fire. Yeah. Pulum Pulum of Fire. I have I have memorized the spell. So when I go to cast the spell, I'm going to roll a couple of dice. There's modifiers because it's a road. It's easier for me to do than if I'm trying to freestyle us Okay, okay, and I'm never gonna forget it so like I can say

peel him a fire this round and next round peel him a fire at that guy and Fire again at that like I sure as long as I manage to get the spell off I'm I don't need to worry about it. I can do it as many times as I want to The problem was spell casting was slow Unless you had weese which is The there there are places in the world that have pure essentially it is it we was a physical object that contained pure magic okay and and a shantry was usually built on a site where we bubbled up from from

The ground sure sure it's like maybe your adrenaline kind of thing kind of yeah, it's it's Like you know and we might take the form of like there's a glade where mushrooms Sprout at the root of a tree that are infused with weaves that has a certain Resonance that is that is resonant with plant magic. Okay, or There's a spring Right right or is infused with with weese that kind of thing sure sure and so if you had Weese which was precious and and you you would you would start a story with

maybe three or four pawns of weese that was the the measurement so you wanted to hold on to it but if the shit really hit the fan you could use it you know to to to make things and make a spell faster if you had weas on your person You could burn that to get the effect to go off quicker It would also make it easier make it more powerful or way right? Yeah, it could alter the the Mechanics of the spell essentially. Yeah. Yeah, it we's the wheels yeah, and even if

While you were casting it was still very very bad if you got hit sure you leave a week spot yeah nice Yes, I like we second do yeah um now in this system combat was Deadly like anytime you got into a fight in Ars Magica, there was the risk of characters not coming out the other end. Like every fight was a dangerous encounter. Sure. And again, this is part of the evolution. I don't want to say maturation necessarily, but it was part of the evolution of tabletop role playing,

into this understanding that you really don't want to say maturation necessarily, but it was part of the evolution of tabletop role playing into this understanding that you really don't want to get into a fight unless it's necessary. Go ahead. It strikes me, because we interviewed Matt Forbeck months ago, and one of the things he talked about was how deadly bullets were in his old West games, right? Yeah, oh yeah.

And so that that would, you know, like 35% chance that you're dead. And I remember him talking about it, and I remember having like just a niggling at the back of my head about why I didn't like that. And I think this has helped me kind of clarify it. You know, it's a game around which rules have to be written for combat. So combat is supposed to be a part of it, and yet it's so deadly that you're supposed

to roleplay your way out of it. But the whole point of a roleplaying game to me is to be unfettered by my own fear of mortality. And so having a game where, and again, when you say this is almost the maturation, but then you said it's the evolution, I do think there's a maturation aspect here because you had kids growing up of like, I kill all the lizard people, ha ha ha,

to guys, this is kind of deadly and da da da. It's not like D&D wasn't deadly too. There was sometimes save or die roles, right? Yeah, that's true, yeah. And those weren't fun to me either for the same reason. Yeah. Yes, I want there to be stakes, yes, I want there to be a possibility of character death, but it had better mean something

to the story. I am not an NPC, I am not a setting. I am not, you know, the you know, I am the main character. And if I die storywise, it better make sense. Otherwise, what the fuck are we doing now? I could have screwed up really badly. It's sometimes it's super bad luck. But even that should be like the stakes are really deep.

Making a game where combat is fairly deadly and therefore and this is what matt matt forbeck said too You would have to role play and find other ways to do it That's too much like real life Yeah, no one of the reasons that we live with a social contract and with a civil society Is because I don't want to be dead Yeah, and the reason why I like democracy is I don't want to change who we vote or change who's in charge by having to shoot them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No. And and I fully agree with all of your statements about that. Like, yeah, my philosophy about I also get why games shifted in the 90s specifically to a, hey, let's role play these things out. Some of it had to do with the fact that the kids who grew up playing AD&D were now working their way through puberty and into early adulthood, still wanting to role play, but having very different priorities and senses of themselves. Yeah. So it makes perfect sense that this is an option. Very much.

And it's not one that I particularly liked at the time either. Maybe I'm just that way. Maybe there's enough of a jock in me that I never wanted that. I think it has more to do with what is it that you're trying to escape, whether whether in your life or in your own head.

Yeah. You know. Yeah. And for me, it's not unfuckability. It's the fear of death. Yeah. Whereas, you know. Yeah. For a whole lot of other fear of death. Yeah, whereas you know Yeah Yeah, um so yeah, I actually fair maiden Lordy so But okay, so back to the weas weas is the word

Yeah, it's it's got groove. It's got feeling So and and I'm going to try to briefly mm-hmm It may not be brief, but I'm going to explain arts magic is the basics of our spaget kiss magic system Sure, because it has a bearing on Mage which is where this is all headed so the theory goes yeah. Yeah, I mean yeah, you know on paper, right? We did mage last time to like Work your own side of the street here Ed So yeah as a as a wizard As a Magus you you manipulated magic through the use of five techniques

manipulated magic through the use of five techniques and ten forms. So the technique is what verb are you are you working with? The form is what noun are you working with? Okay I'm already in because this is grammar. Yes yes and and now we get back to the very old idea of magic being intrinsically linked to language right right? So the five techniques I'm gonna try to pronounce these Creole Mm-hmm, Intel a go. Okay, Muto. Okay. Let me let me interrupt. Okay. I believe I Understand I change go on. Okay okay actually what's what's interesting

is Creo is in there oh I'm sorry I create yes okay yeah so Creo in Telego uh-huh Muto was I believe okay Muto Muto perdo I shit no Pair though um oh Fuck help me out. I've I forgot I destroy that's right. Okay. Yeah perdition there. We go. Okay, and Rago, right? I rule Control yeah, okay, so if for anybody who was not listening closely enough to follow that along in English It's create perceive transform destroy and control Those are your five verbs. Okay your ten forms Again, yeah gonna try the

Pronunciation because because it was all because it's not in French. So you actually have trouble. Yeah. Yeah Or in Japanese or any other goddamn language other than Latin. Yeah. Well, okay But remember I am able to do like Hindi pretty well for no good reason Yeah, because there's absolutely no connection at all. Yeah Like if it's if it's related to Latin, but it's not Latin it it's I'm screwed fucked. Yeah. Okay, so anyway Because this game is set in medieval Europe and these are people of learning of course everything is Latin so animal That's easy literally the Latin word for animal. Yeah our arm Our room our room okay gold No, sorry our arm our arm. Yeah, you are am yeah

Auraam? Yeah. A-U-R-A-M? Yeah. Oh, that's air. Yeah. Okay, it's weird that it's in the accusative, but okay. Okay, corpus. Okay, so, oh, interesting.

Interesting. Okay, so what's happening here is all of these are in the accusative. Okay. And all of the verbs are in the first person singular, and they're all transitive verbs, which means accusative. And all of the verbs are in the first person singular and they're all transitive verbs, which means the accusative is used for direct objects. Yeah. But I do something to the air. I do some corpus and animal are both third declension nouns, which means their endings

are just fucking wild in the nominative. And in the nominative in the accusative, the nominative in the accusative of neuters always repeat Okay, it's weird, but it's just a thing. So corpus is even though it sounds masculine as fuck. It's neuter Animal is neuter. Okay, so animal You said our room our arm and then you said corpus. okay the body human body specifically yes Airbum oh the the herb

Hairbomb yeah, yeah Ignem fire okay, which also is light light and fire are tied together It is magic for that and I've forgotten it, but it's like when you say they're irons clashed. It's actually I think it's metonymy It's it's the their irons clash. It's like oh, we know that there's swords because they're swords made of iron Yeah, so the light is made of fire. So that makes sense. Okay Imaginem Imagination or the image? Images and illusions. Yep, mentem

Mentem men's mentees the mind. Mm-hmm images and illusions yep mentem Mentem men's mentees the mind mm-hmm My any motion yeah aquam water Terram the earth and we oh strength or force Which in this case is magic itself, okay? So in order to cast a spell as a wizard You had points in you you would put points in other techniques So you might be really really good at creo and Muto like I can I can make shit

I can conjure shit out of thin air I can make stuff and I can transform stuff right I'm not so good at making stuff go away right I got nothing on divinity like don't ask me to scry yeah right and and and controlling anything like if there is a fire and I need to I bring it into existence get someone else yeah it's here it's and then somebody else's problem which by the way house flambeau in a nutshell right there I know what you know okay? Look this happens next time you need to tell me how much fire is too much You know I can just imagine house thermidor going like man fuck you fuck you so much yeah and so house brulee is just like

Yeah and so house brulee is just like Yeah, and so so and then you would also have you'd put points in forms so you might be really good at summoning and controlling wins Right be very good at controlling animals. Oh, you might be very good at Transforming people right, you know or you could be a snuffer. You could destroy the whim. Destroy the ma- you could counterspell the fuck out of everybody. Yes. Oh man. You're the Redditor. Actually. Yeah, and that archetype went on into Magic the Gathering as the blue-white counterspell deck. Oh, I didn't know that that was a thing. You know what we gotta play magic sometime cuz like I bought a bunch of the cards for Julia

And she just she liked the artwork She started destroying the cards to like make cool shit was awesome Okay, like there's like a lotus apparently that she really liked and I Know you're trolling that like oh, oh You know, I didn't even get into the game that heavily and hearing you say that makes it makes a not But you know, yeah you you might be able to like Muto Terram Right you can move to come up and grab you or you can you know transform one kind of rock into another kind of Rock sure you know that kind of stuff sure and

Then if you and then you could spend character points to learn rote's You and then you could spend character points to learn rote's spells sure that would then be like okay This is this is this one trick that is this combination of technique and form that I have like I'm just around this I've got this right I can do that Otherwise in the middle of a fight or in the middle of whatever you were doing when you when you you know Faced a challenge somewhere in the game It would be okay. Let me take a look at what my You know okay. I want to try to get this door open. I need to either

Terram You know perdo Terram to Rust the lock right and have it fall apart or I need to rego Something you know you could figure out you know cargo we to make it to open the door. Yeah, yeah Okay, or or creo ignam and no more door I was gonna say creo credit creo animal and just like a rhino comes bursting through there you go. Yeah That that would be a difficult one because that's that's a big ask of the universe, but you could do that So sure oh you could like Creo homing them and just like have a giant man crash through. Oh, yeah

Oh, yeah, what kind of shit you could do Kool-Aid man is a golem I'm here for it. Yeah And so our Ars Magica came out in 1987 right so it is definitely part of the second generation really of Role-playing games. It's clearly responding to the limitations of a D&D when it comes to magic very very much I remember in Dragon magazine in 89 There being advertisements for ours Magica Very very much. I remember in Dragon magazine in 89 There being advertisements for ours Magica And one of the things one of the taglines for for the ads for the game was

The wizard who forgets his spells Isn't isn't a real doesn't deserve the title of a wizard isn't a real, doesn't deserve the title of a wizard. You know. Wow, shot across the bow much? Very much. It was a very clear sign of, hey, this is something very different. Yeah.

You know, in a similar way, I mean, operating on a different level, but in a similar kind of way, in this generation of role playing games, everybody was trying to point out how different they were from D&D because that was, you know, the progenitor, right? Right. So Talis Lanta was a fantastical universe, you know, role-playing game. Their tagline was no elves

Okay Have you know one of the images out of their rule book of one of their player character races? That would be you know some clearly not human humanoid. That was very clearly also not anything you would see in a dnd rule book You know And so this this, this was, this was the same kind of thing. It was, Hey, this is, this is not, this is not your older brother's role playing game. Right. Right. Right. And so ours Magica was heavily built around the idea of character growth and advancement over long periods of time.

So you would at the start of an Ars Magica campaign, you would create one Magus, each player would create one Magus, one or two companions, and four or five grunt, you know, servants, kind of characters. And you'd have a session or two where one or two players would have their Magi One player might have Their ally and then a couple of other players would have two or more of their servants Okay going out on whatever it was whatever piece of business was that the Wizards needed to do uh-huh and they would go out

and you know You've been you know you need to do a favor for the bishop So he doesn't you know set the church on all of you and you need to go You know try to find out whether this is actually a demon causing this problem out in the out in the woods Or what's going on you need to solve it? okay, so you go out and you do that and you know things happen whatever happens happens and you come back to the Shantree and you spend your experience points and all of the characters that weren't on that adventure

all the other characters everybody else had rolled up who were back at the Shantree during this they would get Some other amount of experience points they were they were still studying They were still doing shit right they didn't get as many as the guys that were out there But everybody so you would just all your characters based on where you were what you were doing and Then You would move to the next season of the year. So the first first adventure might be in winter Okay, and then you come back and winter passes

now it's springtime and now a different Magus in the shantri has gotten a letter from his master in Brittany so you've got to get some people together and you've got to go see what it is that your master needs and you've got to travel over land from wherever you are to Brittany and You're gonna take a different crew of characters with you And then you're gonna go do that you're gonna come back and that's spring Right and then the next adventure will be summer and so it's it's spread out over much longer period of time Mm-hmm, and it is

somebody described Ars Magica as a Simulation game with role-playing elements because of the way it kind of it kind of works on this level And so you know it's it's it's a it's a significant kind of paradigm shift From the way that dungeon crawling and all that kind of stuff had worked before it really strongly emphasized its medieval European setting like the the rule books Were were very like the source books and anything that had to do with the setting Was like they had really researched the time period that they were talking about this taking place in and they really paid attention to, hey, here are the feudal social and political things you

need to be aware of. Right. You know, and both mechanically and thematically, it was very, very nuanced. Now the core dice mechanic was really simple it was you know roll a die add a relatively small number of modifiers and get an answer but When I say Small number modifiers I should say the the size of the modifiers was small

But there were a whole bunch of them like oh Good effect to die roll so not a small number a number of small. Yeah a number of small like oh, okay. That's good effected die roll. They're not a small number a number of small Yeah, a number of small modifiers, okay? and Again like we talked about already creative problem-solving was meant to be favored over brute force like you were you were going to have to Fight things like that was that was you know? but the fights were intended to have very high stakes. And it was, you know, it was for all of its fantastical Europe kind of nature.

It was gritty in the sense that yes, there are fairies. You might run into a devil that somebody had accidentally let loose, you know, but everything else other than that is very, very grounded, if that makes sense. It does. And so, you know, this is very important for the evolution of the way wizards show up on the tabletop, and in a number of ways, it's very important for you to kind of understand that before I actually talk about the details of how mage worked. Okay.

And kind of the philosophy behind mage. And so I think right now, this is a good place for us to put a pin in things. Okay. So at this point. Mm-hmm What are your takeaways? There should be more Latin Latin grammar and all the magics Yeah, just try just that because here's why if you include the other representations you run the risk of

What Edward Said called orientalism? Especially in a gaming system you include you you include those and you start to run into oriental adventures or al-kadim Or things that meant well bless their hearts, but ended up fetishizing. Yeah Nobody gives a fuck if you fetishize the Romans like long as you recognize that they're the bad guys Have at it As long as you recognize there they were the if tannin of world empires Yeah, cuz if you don't then you run the risk of fascism, but as we've seen a number of times Classicists regularly have to purge like dipshits out

but So yeah, I think everything should be in Latin obviously, okay, but no in terms of the the the The fact that these systems are continually layering upon what's already there and responding to it is something that I really dig Yeah, because when you play the game, you are on some levels, especially if you, as somebody who's to pick up the game now, be like, mage of the ascension, what's that? It would be in a vacuum. And a lot of this stuff wouldn't culturally make sense.

You'd be missing a lot of it. And I think that that is That that is a reason why certain systems are not attractive to people I think ultimately is because They don't feel connected to the culture in which the game was made whereas the reason why people all love fantasy D&D stuff is Because we all have the wrong idea of what times were like back then. So yeah, we've all grown up with the same with the fairy taleized Robin Hood or cartoonized. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, whereas if you do an urban fantasy, different people have different

ideas what what cities look like. If you do Shadowrun, different people have different ideas of what cities look like. If you do Shadowrun, different people have different ideas of what cars are going to look like. If you do superheroes, that can be kind of frozen in time, but still, the bystanders are suddenly going to be real people to us because it's within our lifetime. And so I think that playing vampire, playing werewolf, playing mage, playing changeling, playing anything else that I don't know the name of, playing any of those,

would be harder to convince people to do if they didn't grow up through that time. Because these things are responding to each other. So that's my takeaway so far. All right, no, that works. I like it. So that's my takeaway so far. All right. No that works. Yeah so Let's see. What do you want people to? ingest intake imbibe read

I'm I'm going to very strongly recommend again with with the very the salt lick sized lump of lump of very the salt lick sized lump of lump of sodium that I mentioned earlier in in our in our conversation I'm going to recommend people go find the Faford and Grey Mouser stories okay for it to Lieber because they're an awful lot of fun they are funny like in a very, very clever way. As you the reader realize things that Fafrd and the Grey Mouser are too oblivious to really figure out for themselves. They really are two halves of a whole idiot. And they're a really fun read. They're a great example of the sword and sorcery genre. And I just I love them to pieces. Again, keep in mind they are relics of the time in which

they were written. So yeah, any any of them. So I know there was a great set of collections of the stories that were published by Dark Horse Publishing a while ago. I don't know if there have been new editions since then, but find them and read them. They're awesome. How about you? I'm going to recommend a memoir by a woman who was magic enough to capture my heart at a young age. It's called Lady Death, the Memoirs of Stalin's Sniper by Lyudmila Pavlichenko. Nice. I just think it's probably good reading.

I haven't actually read it, but I would love to see her estate getting some money. But she killed over 309. Well, actually, she killed a confirmed 309. Killed when she was asked, how many men have you killed? She said, no no men only fascists Nice yeah, so and later she became a history teacher, so Hell yeah, I love that but anyway

Yeah, I want uh I believe Woody Guthrie wrote a song about her called killed by a gun but he wrote songs about everything but So yeah go check out lady death the memoirs he wrote songs about everything. But, so yeah, go check out Lady Death, the memoirs of Stalin's sniper. Nice. Yeah, so let's see, where can they find us? We, collectively, can be found on our website at wubba wubba wubba dot geek history time dot com.

And on that website, you'll find our archive, pick a topic any topic going back 300 and I'm trying to remember what the number is now episodes Yeah, it'll be higher by the time close to the amount that lewd miller killed getting there. Yeah So You know we can also be found on the Apple podcast step on We can also be found on the Apple podcast app on Spotify and on the Amazon podcast app and wherever it is that you find us or obviously have found us

Please take the time to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know We deserve and where can you be found sir well before I get to me. I would like to Plug a dear friends podcast podcast in two different places. We had Dr. Gabriel Cruz back on our show to plug his book. He plugged that, he explained it all. It was a really fun couple of episodes, but we went so long that we forgot to plug things. So I want to let people know that on Patreon for just five bucks a month, you could subscribe to Office Hours with Dr. C. I've done it. It's worth it. It's the price of a coffee once a month.

You're not going to miss it. And also, he and Barry both are college professors. So they're nowhere near rolling in the dough that Ed and I can just sit back on. Magically summoned out of nowhere. Yeah, and like the two of us. Cleo Lucrum. Right, we, Lucrum.

But, you know. That was close. You were. But Ed and I, we can just sit back and do this shit for free. Those guys need the money. They're college professors. It's an undersung fact that once you get past a certain point of years in the secondary school system

out here in California, you're doing a lot better than your college professors were. So anyway, they need the money. Subscribe to their Patreon, Office Hours with Dr. C. And if you can't cough up that kind of scratch, then absolutely all the places that we just listed for our podcast, you should also go check out Office Hours with Dr. C. We're

on there a couple of times. There's also a lot of really cool guests that are on there, some that we've had on. But it's just a great, great. And it's a lot shorter than ours, so. Yeah, it's a lot easier to get in more digestible pieces. Yeah, if you're the type who likes to turn on a podcast to make love, then if you want a quickie, listen to theirs.

Frankly, Dr. C's voice is gonna keep you going. So, whereas ours you we're the marathons we're absolutely the you drank a quart of ginseng and here you go so but also definitely go check out Them and all the places that we told you to check us out too. Yeah, and also Capital punishment is punning like crazy by the time this airs. I'm gonna say June June 6th and July 11th Those are both really important shows to go to and if you miss either of those and come back for August 1st Those three are probably the most three important shows of the year

so, please make sure you go to Comedy Spot in Sacramento and get your tickets or go to saccomedyspot.com and go to the Calendar part and and find those dates where the first Friday of every month 9 p.m under part and and find those dates where the first Friday of every month 9 p.m. $15 You want to get your tickets come and watch me and the rest of the capital punishment crew? Pun fight and win so nice. Yeah, actually it's pun battle win. But yeah anyway For a geek history of time. I'm Damian Harmony, and I'm Ed Blaylock and until next time keep rolling 20s