A Geek History of Time - Episode 357 - Dungeons and Dragons Class Reunion Part I

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

You know, the thing is, you have reached farther for less good. To be blunt, the money in tabletop games isn't great. We have to wind up with the Church of England because obvi, I'll start. I mean, you're here to be the expert, but in the pale... But that doesn't stop bad. That one oddly doesn't make me angry. Because, you know, who's the boss? You know what?

I'm going to keep my head down and be as inoffensive as I can to many. to everybody possible. And that's it. You want to fight? I'm going to dry hump your leg until we're friends. Of course, reminded me of that one woman that I went on a single date with who said, you know, the downside about my job is that we don't show kids drowning anymore. Next nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Laylock.

I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. And this week, my wife and I got our new. cell phones we both upgraded to shiny new you know whiz-bang newest model cell phones and a couple of things I'm actually at first anyway I was much more excited about the fact that getting a new phone means I get to get a new case because my my phone case is my wallet and my current wallet is fucked it is absolutely It looks like a cool little book that you have. Well, yeah.

Since we started this podcast, you've had that. Yeah. Or a thing like it. And I've always been impressed by it. Yeah. It has been this one for at least most of that time. And it is shot. And so I have wanted to get a new one for forever.

And so I got a new phone. So now I get to get a new case, which actually will look even more like a book than this one does. which I'm very excited about. But then I got, I actually got my hands on my new phone. And I don't know if this is an issue for you ever when you like upgrade. But moving to a new phone is really weird because the user interface is the same, but not 100% the same. Yeah.

And so there's that there's that speed bump that you run into where you're like, oh, I'm going to go. Fuck. Wait. How does this? Okay, hold on. Can I reliably scroll up? Yeah. Like, how do I?

Okay. So I've been wrestling with that for the last two days. But, yeah, I'm actually very excited about the phone now. It's very, very shiny. And the camera is awesome. So, yeah, that's what I have been dealing with. How about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony.

I am a U.S. history and economics teacher up here in the Northern California area. actually by the time of this recording I might be a government teacher who knows but or not by the time it's recording by the time it releases yeah but either way I am at the high school level and this last week as of this recording so folks who have their ear to the ground when it comes to which artists are coming to town and whatnot will date this but hopefully it'll feel evergreen um I went with my partner to see a concert, and it was Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass. Holy shit, really?

Yeah, that's everybody's comment. I'm like, I've never fucking heard of these people. My partner had all their albums and recorded them on the cassette tape and drove around town listening to them because she loved them so much. Yeah. And she's a musician. So, like, I was like, oh, okay, this is some sort of niche. And she's like, yeah, I'm going to take you to this concert and it'll be cool. Like, okay, cool.

Yeah, yeah. Every single person I have talked to about this. Well, in fairness, they've all been older than me. Fuck you. Yes. But that includes her, but that also includes one of my D&D groups. And they're all like, like, I was like, yeah, I saw Herb Albert. And they're like, and the Tijuana Brass?

I'm like, yeah, actually. As a matter of fact, yes. And then they're like, oh, you lucky son of a bitch. What did you? How did you? like well you know i explained and like his he's 90 i saw something pretty cool it's probably not coming back through yeah yeah no kidding he's sharp as a fucking whip uh he's really clever his wife came out and sang nice and like i again we we know historically that damien does not

care that much about music yeah my my interest in music is very very odd and very very like A inch wide and 14 feet deep, you know, but that's it, right? So, I mean, I heard his music and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, this is like, you know, and, and, you know, she's singing and she's like, bah, badi, but I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's like in like half the movies where people go to Vegas, you know, it's like, which is all true. And I realize that my understanding of it is super bastardizing, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, Nirvana, I love that clothing brand at Target. Like it's that's probably what I sound like, you know.

But anyway, it's actually, yeah, good analogy. Yeah. But I enjoyed it. It was fine. Very cool. You know, I, I loved getting to see her joy at watching it. And I spent most of the time just staring at her. I mean, I'll do that most nights that I can anyway.

Anyway, yeah, but yeah. She's just like, you know, like, you know, like when somebody's overjoyed and they're mouth is open and a smile. There's like, you know. Yeah, yeah. She was that most of the night. It was cool. That's cool.

So, yeah, it was fun. Very cool. Yeah. That's awesome. I got to see. And I am envious that you got to see Herb Alpert and Tijuana Brass live. Like, I could tell that started my parents and they'd be like, oh, really? Wow.

Well, hopefully your mom listens to this episode. Yeah, well, yeah, depending on what it's about. Hopefully. If you are listing, Mom, I'm sorry for all the language. All right. So, finally, my analysis of the comma Sutra. No. Okay, Mom, turn it off now.

Wait till next week. Not this one. This is not the one. Thank you. Yeah. No. Actually, I know the answer to this question. So I'm going to ask it in such a way that you can't give that answer.

Oh, you dick. Okay. Aside from Paladin, what is your favorite class to play? play in D&D. Oh, that's really hard. I know. I mean, number one, Paladin is just kind of the default I fall into.

Right. Well, I mean, I remember you asked me this a while ago, and I listed like five of the 12. Yeah. Because, like, you know, apparently it's the one time where I'm not like, buy me the economy sized. It's like, no, I want all the samples. Yeah.

Um, mine, there's always the incredible fun of playing against type. Mm-hmm. Um, especially in a group where there's at least one person at the table who has never seen me play anything other than Paladin. Sure. And, and being the, the rogue, I hate that word. Um, you know, uh, there, there was one, uh, game that, uh, my friend Ryan, uh, my much missed friend Ryan, uh, ran. where I actually played an assassin. I played a lawful evil assassin.

Wow. And I was playing it pretty straight as like, you know, a kind of uptight rogue right up until a certain point in the adventure where I just took all, like, threw off the leash. It was like, no, we just got to kill them all. And every, like, most everybody at the table kind of looked at me like, wait, this is not Ed. And one of the people at the table looked at me like I had sprouted a second head. Ed's not here right now. Yeah, Ed's not here right now. Yeah. So that's that's fun. I have had a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun playing wizards. Low levels as wizards is no fun, but once you get past about level six or seven, it gets to be a lot of fun.

I'm getting to the point in my life where I want to play the the worst at something character and see if I can get him through low levels and not like to speed run him but like just I want decks to be my dump stat how will I play and adapt to that. What am I going to do? Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that.

Yeah. Okay. So wizards, rogues, you like to go against type. Yeah. I, although Paladin has been my primary for forever, you have been the only person I, no, actually, it's not true. I have since played another cleric. There have only been two campaigns in which I've played a cleric. Nice.

So, yeah, I think, I think Wizard and getting to break out of the I'm the goody guy mold by playing a thief or a rogue are probably going to be my two favorites other than Paladin. Okay. So yeah. Why do you ask, sir? Well, I got to thinking that I have not done a D&D episode myself. And I've only kind of added commentary to D&D episodes. And it got me to thinking that like maybe I should look at D&D classes that we should see come back. Okay.

All right. Yeah. So that's what we're doing tonight. possibly next week as well. We're going to look at D&D classes from first through fifth edition. Okay. I guess. I actually, I think I might have cut myself off at like fourth.

But first through at least fourth. Classes that need to maybe need to see the light of day again now that there's a new set of rules that has been released, the 2024 set that's kind of reset things. Right. All right. I'm here for it. Yeah. Now, I will say this by preface this by saying that the 2024 set says that it absolutely is backward compatible with everything from 5E. And by and large, it is. There's just, it's kind of, how do I say, that is true, but it's like they switched Darren's in Bewitched. I again you're the king of analogy

I love that I love that analogy so much yeah what I was going to say is it's like oh yeah no this engine is totally all the parts to this engine are totally back compatible with the parts from the engine from you know three model years ago right except for the fact that if you're going to use the turbocharger off of this one on one of those there's this kit you need to have You need lead pellets

Because the fittings aren't quite the same Yeah It's totally competitive You can do it Is what we're saying But you know you're going to have to Coble some stuff together You absolutely can put a Toyota

Toyota TURcell engine Into a Toyota Corolla hatchback body It'll fit It'll fit because it's 0.1 liters smaller And so it'll run weird but it'll run but you can do it yeah yeah it'll be road safe

it'll just feel weird yeah yeah so yeah all right so uh in the original d and d box set the one with the guy on the horse on it the one with the red text the sepia background that one yeah we see proto

classes you have basically abilities what we call attributes now some vague aspect of race and classes. Right. In that 1974 edition, only three classes existed. The Fighting Man, the Cleric, and the Magic User.

Yes. And I just love the Fighting Man. It sounds like a 70s funk song. Like the companion piece to the rubber man. You know what? Yeah, you know what? I can hear the baseline already. Right.

man yeah yeah like lower end lower end of the note scale but no tempo and and just a just a little bit of extra buzz honestly listen to the opening music bumper to this episode and it will be that you know what yeah every two years i make three or four new bumpers yeah so yeah all right anyway uh now as you've stated in your why Guy Gax's typical Ohio frontier racism episode, which is... Way to sharpen the title there. It's episodes 22 and 23. I just seeing looking at it, you know, carving bits off a steak, you know, to drive through somebody's vampiric heart.

Yeah. But that episode where you discussed the ninth level fighter, the thief class did not come out until Greyhawk, the first supplement. was released in 1975. Right. See, I'm not just here for, you know, being sexy and having puns. So. Indeed. You're not.

No, Damien, you are not. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I'm not. It's not a denial. Out loud. Right. So the Paladin was also introduced at that time.

Yep. After that came Blackmore. and that actually had the first monk and first assassin class for D&D. Now, since I'm only talking about PC classes, I'm not going to count sage, which was also introduced, but only as an NPC class. Right. Okay.

Now, what I'd forgotten was that certain races were restricted from and to certain classes. For instance, dwarves could either be fighters or a fighter thief, whereas humans could be all four. Right. Halflings could be fighters or thieves, but could not cross class or multi-class. Elves were not allowed to be clerics, and humans couldn't multi-class at all. Right. And I think this set some of my early prejudices about the races in D&D, to be perfectly honest.

Okay. Like, I did not like elves ever. Okay. And I don't know, just because, you know, the, and I also, honestly, never liked playing humans. But I think that comes back to if I'm going to play escapist fantasy games, I don't want to be anything near me. Yeah, you're going to throw the throttle forward on the escapeism.

Right. It's exceedingly rare that I've ever played a human character come to think that. I've done it, I think, twice in the game that you used to be a part of. Right. Three times total with that group now. Okay. And that's been it. Like, otherwise it's always some other species.

So, okay. Now, I kind of want to narrow that down a little bit. Sure. Or drill into that a little bit. Have you done that because of the mechanism of the rules set and how you wanted to use that? Or have you done it because the concept for the character was one that was most fitting for them to be from a human background as opposed to a dwarf or a halfling or whatever? Let me think. The monk and the sorcerer that you saw me playing. Yep.

Both of those were, it's a whole new system. Yeah. I'm going to go generic, but then fuck around with a class. Okay. That makes sense. All right. And then the third one that I've played, I think that was I wanted the feat. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So. That's fair. And he was like a rope. So, you know, it was... Okay. So he's mostly human.

Yeah, he's human 29 days a year. Until he does meth. So... Yes, at which point, you know, what happens, happens. Yeah. Okay. So, anyway, that's the first edition. It's not even the advanced first edition.

And eventually we would see the Druid show up in the Eldridge Wizardry supplement as well. Right. Okay. Now, the first edition to have an actual player's handbook per se, was the advanced D&D first edition. Now, at the time, it was just called advanced D&D. Right. Just like WrestleMania was only called WrestleMania.

Right. Yeah. Now we know it is WrestleMania one. Now, this was the 1978 one with the big red statue that a thief is trying to take the ruby eye out of. Right. And the rest of the party are busy cleaning up the bodies after having fought a bunch of lizard men. Yes. Yes.

Yep. Now here's one of the most evocative covers they've ever put out. And way too reliant on dark, grim coloring. Yeah. Like, yeah. It is, it is a remarkable piece of work.

And also, kind of, if you are trying to introduce the game to muggles, for lack of a better word, for the first time. And I feel bad for having used that particular one. But everybody understands what I mean when I say it. when you're introducing that to

folks who are not in the hobby for the first time that cover is a little bit of a speed bump yeah it's a it is a tone setter yeah which you either can use to jump off of or that you will need to help people climb over right yeah which which is part of the reason why the I want to say second printing second or third printing

switched to the easily painting of the wizard yes defending himself from a gargoyle or an imp. Yeah. Which is a lot. Number one, the color palette shifts. It does. Instead of having all the deeper reds and the fire and the overtones of devils and hell,

it's blue and white. The wizard can clearly be identified as looking like a good guy. Yeah. You know. Cool colors. Yeah. Also, that kind of sets it for the next several editions, actually. Yes.

You know, or at least the next several players handbooks because like once you get to 30 and 35, then it's back to kind of the leathery color. Yeah. But that's a different aesthetic too. But anyway. Now, here's an excerpt from that book by Gary Gygax. Quote, The characters and races from which the players select are carefully thought out and balanced to give each a distinct and different approach to the challenges posed by the game. advantages and disadvantages advancement in level characteristics and abilities are all detailed and explained so that the selection of a player character type or the integration of an existing character can be done with foreknowledge and projection in a similar vein the individual running the campaign games the dungeon masters will have available more data and guidelines upon which to build more interesting and detailed milieu

Clerics and fighters have been strengthened in relation to magic users, although not overly so. Clerics have more and improved spell capability. Fighters are more effective in combat and have other new advantages as well. Still, magic users are powerful indeed, and they have many new spells. None of these overshadow thieves. All recommended subclasses, druids, paladins, rangers, illusionists, and assassins, as well as the special monk class of character are included in order to assure as much variety of approach as possible. Non-human races, dwarves, elven, gnome, half-elvin, half-orchish, and half-ling are likewise

included. Each offers some advantages and difference, yet has distinct disadvantages, just as human characters do. Okay. Now, he goes on. Each participant in the campaign created by the referee must create one or more game personas. The game persona of each participant is called the player character in order to differentiate it from the personas created by the referee called non-player characters. The dungeon master is advised to limit player characters to one per participant at commencement at commencement of the campaign, though as play progresses, additional player characters may be added in a judicious manner.

Each player develops the abilities of his or her character through, random number generation by means of dice rolling to determine the basic characteristics of the persona the abilities. The player then decides what race the character is, what the character's class is, the alignment of the character, and what the character's name is to be. The character will speak certain languages determined by race, class, and alignment. He or she will have a certain amount of gold pieces to begin with, and these funds will be used to purchase equipment needed for adventuring. Finally, each character begins with a certain number of hit points as determined by the roll of the die or dice commensurate with the character's class. Class determines the type of

die or dice rolled. All characters begin at level one, or first level. All of this is completely explained in the following paragraphs. And then from there, there were a number of tables telling you the basic minimums for certain classes. For instance, if you had a wisdom of five, from there or lower, you could only be a thief. An intelligence of five or lower, and you could only be a fighter. A cleric was the only class for a five or lower

on dexterity. A five or lower on constitution, you could only be an illusionist. Charisma of five or lower, you could only be an assassin. And a nine was the minimum intelligence for a magic user or a paladin and so on. Right.

Yeah. So there there are so many things going on in that in that first couple of of paragraphs there that that passage launched a a fleet of tropes within within fantasy literature within gaming of all varieties video games like you know you you think of you know generate your stats and and create a character so many fantasy games of the early 80s basically took that model yep and modified it and then and then ran with it um you know the idea that you know each character randomly gets a certain amount of money to buy your stuff to start your campaign so like as a fighter if you rolled poorly well yeah you are the fighter, but you're only wearing leather armor.

Right. You know. You don't get a sword. You're going to, that's going to be kind of your first, your character's first arc. Yeah, you need, you're starting, you're starting with an axe because that's cheaper. Yeah. Which, like, as a historian, I'm kind of not so mad at, but, you know, when you're playing it, when you're playing a fantasy game, like, let's let's let people be heroes.

Right. And there's, oh, my God, there's so much of Gary's. voice in that. Like the man the man could not use plain English to save his life. No. But also he's trying to be as clear as he possibly can

to a brand new player. So there's a thing that happens to language when you know that 10,000 people will all need to get the same message from this. I can understand that. I do understand that. And I dated somebody who she had to design trainings for people for a large tech company.

And she like, it would be six months of developing like a five slide training. And I'm like, what is taking so long for you? And you don't understand the amount of ways that people will take things wrong and and fuck themselves up. And it's like, wow, that is wild. By the way, please check the chat that I just put a document in there. Okay. Let me know if you can open it up. Okay.

Oh, dear. I know this chart. Even before I open it up, I see the illustration at the bottom of the page. And I'm like, oh, how many times since the age of nine have I looked at this chart? Yes, racial stock of character. By the way, a phrase like racial stock. Let's talk about that for a moment. Tell me

Her Midwestern white guy from the 70s Without telling me her Midwestern white guy from the 70s Yeah Gary will go first Yeah So I would just For everyone else This is the chart that I found

In the original PhB The AD&D PhB And it shows Exactly What you could and could not be Based on your race and based on what class you wanted to be. So certain races couldn't be certain classes at all.

And so hence this chart, right? Yeah. So if you wanted to be a cleric, you could not be a dwarf, nor an elf, nor a gnome, nor a halfling. But a half-orke? Totally fine. For whatever reason.

Half-elven and human. Now that tells me that only humans can touch God. so if you are a half of one you still get to mind blown I never wow yeah I gotta look up whether whether Gary was a member of a

organized church or not because that's that's deep like wow all right by the way humans were the only ones that could be paladins yep you know there's there's just there's so much in here

where it's just like what in the fucking fuck um everybody could be an assassin except for halfling like yeah you know um and uh monks and paladins which are the most lawful of all the classes yeah um human only yeah human only so and again some of that is the pluses and minuses to being those races would impede your abilities to progress and so that was that was another wrinkle too. So it wasn't even this simple. So the next chart I'm going to bother with is, is, it's just going to get really complicated because due to the racial limitations, like I said, they will max out at certain levels of

the class, right? So for instance, dwarven fighters with less than a 17th strength are limited to seventh level fighters. Yeah. Those with a 17 strength are limited to eighth level fighters. Yep. Which means that whole ninth level thing, restricted to the whites. I mean, the humans.

Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. I mean, not wrong, but. Not incorrect, but totally wrong. Totally. Okay. Yes.

Elvin fighters with less than a 17th strength were limited to fifth level fighters. Those with 17 or higher could only get up to sixth level fighters. And by the way, different classes progressed at different experience numbers, which meant that you could have a squad of guys and gals working together where you had somebody at seventh and somebody at fourth. And that was the party makeup completely and everybody else in between. Yeah, the, if I'm remembering right, the thief is going to be at seventh level. sure and the wizard at that point is going to be stuck at fourth right um the paladin is going to be probably at fifth sure the fighter's going to be maybe somewhere between fifth and sixth and that's assuming everybody got even XP yeah right like you just divided by five yeah there's there's a whole bunch of stuff in the way which we never my friends and i never messed with but there was there was this you know whole system uh that got described in the dungeon master's guide for first edition ad and d and d. about, you know, division of experience points

and there was the assignment of bonus experience points for okay, every time the fighter takes down a monster, which is why kill stealing was a big deal. You got a bonus this many. You know, every time the cleric, you know, did cleric stuff, you know, every time the wizard defeated an enemy with magic, you got a bonus.

Like, it was a whole thing. But also remember, you could lose experience based on certain monsters hitting you. You could, and it would cost you experience if you were a wizard to craft items. Which was such bullshit. Right. Well, again, that's why the wizard's down and forth, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Like, it was insane. So here's gnome fighters who had less than an 18 strength were limited to fifth level. Half-elven fighters of less than 17 strength were limited to six. Those were 17 strength were limited to seventh. And this is just fighters, right? Halfling fighters of the hair feet subrace, as well as all other types of subrace with strength of under 17 strength were limited to fourth level. Right. Yeah.

All fellows of strength of 17 and stouts with the strength of 18 could work up to fifth level. Right. Right. Yeah. There was an awful lot of this stuff that I know my friends and I, and I suspect. a lot of other groups looked at and went sure Gary

whatever and I was always like dogmatists we were stuck at that shit like I remember we were going to do a one-off game I was like all right cool I've got this idea for a character

well roll up your your attributes and we'll see if you can do it wow yeah so instead I was a part you no I was like what the fuck um okay so tall fellows that somehow obtain an 18 strength could work up to six level.

Elven magic users with an intelligence of less than 17 are limited to ninth level. Those within intelligence of 17 were limited to 10th level. And remember, magic users could go up that high, but like fighters would tap out at night. Like it was just so much. Half elven magic users with an intelligence of less than 17 were limited to six level. If your intelligence was 17 or higher, you could get up. to seventh level. Yeah.

Nome illusionists with an intelligence or a dexterity under 17 were limited to fifth level illusionist. But if you had both intelligence and dexterity of 17 or higher, you could get up to six level. Right. If you had a half work thief, you had to have, if your dexterity was less than 17, you couldn't get any higher than sixth. And those with the dexterity of 17 were then limited to seventh.

Which also meant that nobody but humans. ever got to the level where you could do that thing we talked about in the hey Gary Gygax's getting into his Jeffersonian kick where oh yeah now you're you're big enough to start a thieves guild right you're a high enough level you can become a guild master which is to say by the way a crime lord like right yeah yeah yeah you know you're forming a gang like let's let's be straightforward yeah yeah an urban keep yeah that is to say you're safe house like come on um and and And so, you know, running strictly by the rules as a game master. Like as a DM, if you were one of those dogmatists, you're not ever going to have a thieves guild master villain who's not human.

Yeah. Like the limitations, like, you know, Gary, I think I understand what you're trying to do here. but I don't think you've thought through the second and third iteration consequences of what you're talking about here. Right. Right. Right. So you're hamstringing everybody. And everything.

Yeah. Unnecessarily. It's like you had to think up these limitations and mix and matches. Yeah. I think. And to give to give credit for good intent. tension. I think part of where Gygax was coming from with these specific kinds of decisions

is coming from a war gaming kind of background where, you know, okay, this army moves really fast and they hit just as hard, but they're glass cannons. Like they hit just as hard as everybody else and they're really mobile so they can run in and get hits. but when they start taking hits, they fall down faster. Yeah. Or this army is really slow

and they don't hit as hard as everybody else, but they are almost impossible to kill. So, you know, that kind of idea of balancing things, I think he was taking into, consciously or not. He was carrying those wargaming tropes into his,

ideas about balancing a role-playing game. Oh, definitely. And again, he was adding imagination to a war game. Yeah. And to give him credit, which anybody who listens to this show knows, hurts me. But to give him credit, this is the first really big, like, hit successful tabletop role-playing game. And so nobody had done it before.

and so carrying that mindset into it is something I suppose we should give some grace for. It's kind of, it's the, because of course they did. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm okay with that because you got to start somewhere. Right. But dogmatists be dogmatists. Yeah, I'm sorry you had those experiences.

That's unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. But it's one of those, like you don't know how far. up it is until it's shown how fucked up it is. You just kind of have a general malaise about like, well, this could be so much cooler if I got to do cooler things. Yeah.

Yeah. So instead it was like, oh, you know, honestly, it felt like any time I've ever played Super Mario Brothers. It's like, okay, how long am I going to go until I lose? Because I've never beaten that game. Yeah. And then we get to class. Oh, dear.

So from the book. Right. Character class refers to the profession of the player character. The approach you wish to take to the game, how you believe you can most successfully meet the challenges which it poses, and which role you desire to play are dictated by character class or multi-class. Clerics principally function as supportive, although they do have some offensive spells, spell power, and are able to use armor and weapons effectively. Druids are a subclass of cleric who operate much as do other clerics,

but they are less able in combat and more effective in wilderness situations. Fighters generally seek to engage in hand-to-hand combat, for they have more hit points and are better and better weaponry in general than do other classes. Paladins are fighters who are lawful good, see alignment. At higher levels, they gain limited clerical powers as well. Rangers are another subclass of fighter. They are quite powerful in combat. and at upper levels, gain druidic and magic spell usage of a limited sort.

Magic users cannot expect to do well in hand-to-hand combat, but they have a great number of magic spells of offensive, defensive, and informational nature. They use magic almost exclusively to solve problems posed by the game. Illusionists are a subclass of magic user, and they are different primarily because of the kinds of spells they use. Thieves use cunning, nimbleness, and stealth. assassins, a subclass of thief, are quiet killers of evil nature. Monks are aesthetic, aesthetic, aesthetic, ascetic, eschetic.

Well, okay, so here's the thing. He wrote aesthetic, aesthetic. Yes. He meant ascetic. Yeah. Monks are, that you know that. Yeah. It's bothersome.

Well, okay, so here's the thing. in you know paleo gamer times sure it was it was something that uh dn d players and uh game other game designers made fun of uh steve jackson games uh published a magazine um oh damn it and i had the title a moment ago but uh they they published a game magazine uh that that they would do no no um something something Space Gamer. Okay. Space Gamer magazine. And it was a, you know, broad spectrum, you know, all kinds of stuff, you know, articles

about all kinds of games. And like gaming magazines back then did, the last couple of pages of the magazine were cartoons. And one of their, well, one of the things they did in one of their cartoons was, you know, funny, funny errors, you know, mistakes in, you know, game design. And they had, you know, something like, you know, in Car Wars, you are, you can effectively shoot to an unlimited range. Sure. You know, as long as you deal with penalties, that kind of stuff.

And then there was an image of, you know, in the player's handbook, monks are described as aesthetics, you know, which probably should mean ascetics. And there's an image of a martial arts monk doing a flying kick through the easel. of another monk who's trying to paint his portrait. And so, yeah, like, I read that in middle school when I was 12, and I was like, oh, aesthetics never made sense to me. Now I get it. So, yeah, I've carried that with me for forever. All right.

Well, but yeah. Monks are aesthetic disciples of bodily training. See, that just sounds like they're gym bros. Yeah. Like, you see, you can picture them all oiled up. Like thing. Yeah. you know, posing.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole different, that's a whole different aesthetic than the one we now associate. You can just see them. They're, oh my God, they're professional wrestlers.

Oh, shit. Balrogs don't hit back. Nice. Thanks. I actually, I actually saw somebody on Reddit the other day mention in some conversation about something else talking about, oh, I'm going to have to steal that idea.

for my macho man Randy Savage monk. Oh, brother. That sounds amazing. It's like that is too perfect. Oh, my God. Instead of like, you know, Diamond Soul, it's the cream rises to the dream rise. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, man. Absolutely love it. Okay, so they are, monks are aesthetic disciples of bodily training in combat with bare hands. each class is detailed fully in succeeding paragraphs. It is up to you to select what class you desire your character be.

That would be fucking nice. Anyway, selection must be modified by abilities generated and possibly the race of your character. Okay, so there it is. Yeah, so yeah. The following tables will enable you to determine the major differences between character classes at a glance. Specific comparisons must be done in light of the detailed information given in the sections which discuss the individual classes in question. Note that non-human and semi-human races are characters who are multi-classed and semi-human

race characters who are multi-classed are typically bound by the limitations of the thief class only. That is, a fighter magic user can benefit from both armor, weaponry, and spells. A fighter thief is limited by the constraints of the thief class. Yeah By the way The classes each had different ceilings Like I said different experience requirements

And so on So party parity was not a thing Until third edition Uh huh Which they actually simplified The experience chart to be universal And balanced And balanced the classes accordingly

That was fucking 2000 2001 Yeah Yeah no it took a quarter of century Yeah So The shit that we just take for granted Yeah

The shit that like we just were like, well, it's always been this way, therefore. And then people who start now and they're like, that sounds dumb. It's like, oh, you have no idea. You have no clue. Yeah. Gather around children while, you know, great uncle Ed tells you a story. Tells you why this stayed niche and not fun at all for most people. Why this didn't get to be a thing until the 2000s?

But in one of my campaigns in college, my buddy Nick was playing a bar. And I don't think we had a rogue in the party. He was our he was our stand-in rogue. He can kind of do some of that stuff kind of character. Sure. And because of the way level progression went and because of some of the rules we were we were choosing to use, he wound up being, I want to say, like three levels ahead of the median of the rest of the party. He was way ahead of us. And so we wound up having an encounter where there was there was a box in the middle of a room all by itself.

And we had already had a couple of encounters with undead, like non-corporial undead that had been bound in an object somewhere. And we walk into the room and Ryan describes this box sitting on the table. And Nick immediately twigged to what was about to happen. He said, Ryan, Ryan, I'm not in the room. Ryan, I'm leaving now. I'm turning around. I'm going down the hallway. And Ryan goes, and so, you know, is anybody going to open the box?

Ryan, did you hear me? I am not in the room. and I remember who it was. Somebody said, yeah, I'm going to open up because they hadn't figured out what was going on and didn't understand

when Nick was freaking out. They opened the box and Ryan, God rest his memory from behind the screen. At this point, Nick is yelling from the other end

at the table. Ryan, I am not in the room. Ryan goes, okay, and a wraith pops out and goes after and rolls the die. and like by that time we all knew what the answer was going to be sure and it was like and he goes after dink

like because of course he does yeah you know it was like we got we got to knock you down to where the rest of the party is and it's like dude you couldn't find a better way to do that but yeah that that that wouldn't have been an issue right if the experience tables had made more sense so yeah yeah it's you know what this is this is you have created different classes to exist in the world with no thought as to how they would synergize yeah so you you've created a world in which player characters play by necessity they're going to be groups but you didn't create it in such a way to think of groups yeah so anyway uh now all of the things that i just read to you yes was in a single

paragraph in close together text. Mm-hmm. This is where you also had first ran into permitted and unpermitted weapons. Right. Which, according to some story that I've either heard or read recently, I don't remember which, the bio tapestries, Bishop Odo, was the one that put it into Gygax's head

that clerics were a class that fought exclusively with non-bladed weapons. Yes and no. Oh, do tell. So, uh, Guy Gax undoubtedly got the idea from the Bayo tapestry. I have heard that as well. However, in the Middle Ages, um, it was, of course, not uncommon for high ranking, uh, clergy to also have noble titles and be from noble families and have, you know, obligations to go fight. and there was a

a church sanction against them using swords or axes or anything like that because, and I love the incredibly medieval Catholic you know

legalism involved in this sure well you know you shouldn't use an edged weapon because a man of God should not shed blood I'm sorry but there's friars going out into the boggy, bloody marsh of a battlefield afterward and slitting men's throats as mercy killings. Yes.

Well, see, but that's different. That's not an anger. Yeah. That's not in anger. God. That doesn't count as murder. You converted to this on purpose as an adult. Yes, I did, but I didn't convert to the medieval church.

No, I guess. I want to point out. You still, yeah. Okay. Okay, okay. That is the equivalent of saying like, look, I'm not playing first edition. I'm playing Pathfinder. Well, I mean, I am currently playing Pathfinder as a matter of fact. So, you know. I know. God. God. Oh, it's a good thing. I love my friends because so many of them are religious and I don't get it. I know. I know. I understand. I chose this. Yes. Okay. Yes. Now, I say that.

at knowing full well that I give money to watch a product that was developed by some of the worst exploitors in the world. I'm glad that you're the one who brings that up. Yes. And people are welcome to bring that up as well. Like, tell me about Vince McMahon. Right. Tell me about, tell me about how.

man had an angle where he fought God, all right? I know. I know. You know, tell me, tell me how professional wrestling has always been that way. True. So, there you go. So that's the, that, that is not a ringing endorsement for the K-FAP. No, I'm not.

You've signed on for. Yeah, no. I'm not, this is not a forum for me to, you know, try to do a ringing endorsement. We're poking holes in shit right now. Yeah, that's, yeah. That's what we do here. True. True.

All right. So this edition of D&D also gave us the Vancey and magical spell chart that you spoke of a few episodes back. Yes. Now, which made low-level wizards suck. Yes. Yes. Like, oh, until I get to third level. I just, it's no.

And I'm spent. I really get to, like, looking at D&D through the eyes of the people that I play with now, who it's their first time playing it right so when we're in the 2024 rules and they're like they started at 5e right and it's like when we describe some of the grognards sitting around the table and we describe shit it's just like they're like why would anybody play that and it's like you have to understand it was the only game in town yeah but secondly like i i agree i agree that because because really what what i think 5E and 24 have both done a really good job of doing

is okay but what if it didn't suck on purpose because yeah I think Nancy and Magic sucks and they chose it on purpose to balance out against the fighters which they also made suck because they're like you can only hit once

and it's like I know that it only represents the time you land the hit but it puts it in your head that it's a hit right yeah yeah yeah and it's like they they underestimated how bad it would suck when it was that limited and again it's because it came from miniature war gaming model where it was turn based and all this so I get it but it really does feel like 5e and 2024 rules both have gone like yeah but like it doesn't have to suck yeah I think I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna turn the clock back a little further I'm actually

going to say the point at which for me it was a oh oh they're really working to not make this suck was third in 3.5 there was still an awful lot of there was residual suck there was like there was there was there was

residual a lot of residual suck but like the ability to like the amount of attention that got paid to okay now we're really going to have an actual system for you to have your character no shit other than I hit people over the head with a sword or I throw fire at people.

That's true. That's true. You know, so there's more attention to, you know, crafting an individualized persona. There wasn't just, well, you know, I'm the fighter. And it was still still. So here's the residual part, though. Yeah. I loved that there were cross-class skills, but it was still you're buying things at penalty.

And so it was, oh, yeah, you could have good storytelling or you could have a cool character. You couldn't have both. Like, there was still like, and again, that was what it was for that time. And I'm okay with that. Just like I'm okay with Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the 90s because it was a step up. Yeah, it was a problematic step forward. Exactly. In the language of Dr. Cruz.

It got rid of the confusion of Thaco, but, you know, and it did. Everything was now addition, no subtraction, right? That was great. High number is always good. Yes, like that was all really good. And they brought in feats and they did this and they did that. And that was all really cool. And also you limited and made feats suck.

Like, again, you have to start somewhere. And I'm fine with that. And they were still, I genuinely think that 3L and 35, which I just call them both 35, just like I'm calling 2024, just 5E. Right. They're the same thing just because you updated. it. Yeah. No, they really are. It's the same. It's the same system, right? So 30 or 35, whatever we want to call it, that was still the simulationist model. Oh, immensely. Yeah. And it would take going through four to get to five. I mean, that's how numbers work. But it would take going through four, which was, oh, God, people really like Warcraft. And then to get to five where it's like, okay, We can't just do tabletop warcraft because that has limits to it as well.

That gets clunky in a very different way. Yes. Very fast. Yeah. And so I genuinely appreciate where we've gotten to with 2024. But yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

So in advanced D&D first edition, the classes went as follows. Cleric with Druid as a subclass. Fighter with Pallad. and Ranger as a subclass, magic user with illusionist as a subclass, and thief with assassin as a subclass. Oh, and also

Monk, which appeared to be an attempt at blending clerics and fighters. There was even discussion of that in the text. I didn't copy that part down, but it did mention that. The book also did discuss multi-classing and in the appendix

because DMs would find it too complicated, they included the bard, what the fuck and and the bard number one you could only be human right and to become a bard you had to go through three other classes yeah have exceptionally high stats across the board to get away with doing that or across the bard Paladin, too. You had to have like three stats that were really fucking high to be at Pally. Well, yeah, you had to have a really high charisma. Yeah. You had to have an above average intelligence and your strength.

Yeah. And so, yeah, that was always a thing. But the original bard, if you actually got. through the process of getting to, okay, now I am a third level bard. Right. By that time, you were a terrifying force of nature. And bards, the stereotype we have now of bards, you know, looking like Chris Pine and, you know, being massive hymboes or shebos. Because I don't, anyway, you know, being, being, you know, that person.

in the party. Bards back then were very different. Yeah. The bard was a figure like Vainemoin and or Merlin, like this imposing, you know. It was like a scald, although they had that later.

But like it was, it was like the Irish version of the bard. Yes, very much. Not the, we're playing the three pence version will, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Now,

uh, after the P. came out, there were other additions of the PhD, but before the other, or of D&D, but before the other additions came out, out came unearthed Arcana in 1985.

Fuck yeah. That contained three new classes as well. Yep. The thief acrobat, the barbarian, and the cavalier. Yep. So Diana, Eric, and Bobby. Yes. And if we're talking about

first edition AD&D, We are. Well, I mean, you know, you asked the question earlier about, you know, favorite character class. Oh, sure. Other than Paladin. If we're talking about first edition AD&D exclusively, then, yeah, favorite, favorite class other than Paladin is the cavalier. Full stop. Sure.

Yeah. Okay. No hesitation at all. Unearthed Arcanna also revised the Druid and the Ranger. Mm-hmm. And then 1989 came. George Bush was president. Yeah.

Second edition AD&D hit the shelves. Yep. And in that came more classes. Second edition AD&D restructured classes to all fall under the four main archetypes now, which warrior, wizard, priest, and rogue. Yep. Warriors now included the paladin and the fighter and the ranger. The wizard included the mage and the illusionist, but it also left the door open for other. Specialist wizards.

Exactly. Yeah. The priest class comprised the cleric and the druid with a similar door left open to those who wanted something besides religion or botany. And the rogue included the thief and the bard. Right. Monk and assassin had disappeared from the Ph.D. entirely. And from there, you had to buy different supplemental materials to find other classes, or at least by the magazines. Yeah.

And I am of course old enough, as you love to point out to remember reading Dragon Magazine when TSR was talking about, hey, we are going to be doing a revision. We're coming out with the second edition of the game. And by the way, some sacred cows are going to get slaughtered. And like the letter section for over a year, the letter section of Dragon Magazine. You don't touch my whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

was just full of people. And I distinctly remember the response from, from, you know, the game design staff, you know, who were, who were, you know, speaking to the fandom through the magazine, saying, look, we understand. But we need to simplify things because this has gotten kind of nuts. Because what you, what you haven't mentioned is also in the middle there is Oriental Adventures. Right. which introduced the samurai who was an Asian version of the cavalier right the Bushi who was an Asian version of the fighter right and Sohey and Shuggenja who were both cleric types yeah and then a special version a slightly different version of the barbarian and a slightly different version of the monk there's also the Wu Zhen yes the Wu Jhan who is the Asian version of a wizard right and You know, and it was, of course, all done in this very 1980s, uh, uh, po-pery, you know, uh, heavily influenced by, you know,

uh, Wuja and, uh, Chambara movie kind of, kind of thing. Now, is this you talking about first edition doing this, or we're talking after second edition came out? This is me talking about first edition doing this. Okay, this is the Oriental Adventures book for first edition, which, which was, I know there was one that came out for, second at as well. There was, yes.

Which has its own set of issues. But, you know, and so the game design staff were saying there's too many classes to keep track. When we're trying to develop stuff, when we're trying to do things, there's too much stuff to keep track of. So we are going to streamline and simplify things. And when you get down to it, a cavalier of samurai are both basically fighters. Right. with extra bits tacked on. You know,

Ranger. I know you didn't mean to, but that was a really good pun. Thank you. Two mentions of horse things. That's good. Yes. And the monk

doesn't really have a role. Yeah. There's no place we can make this fit very well. Right. An assassin is just an evil thief who gives people who were living, you know, and there was a very logical kind of explanation for it. And of course, people just hated that.

Of course. Well, you know, like you said, sacred cows got slaughtered. Yeah. Now, what should I call it? With every subsequent edition, more classes came and went, advanced second edition, third edition, 3.5, fourth, fifth. And now, as of this recording, we are in the 2024 edition, similar to when

WrestleMania got past WrestleMania 16 they didn't do Roman numerals for a while they just did WrestleMania X7 and WrestleMania 18 I think was just the Arabic numerals and so was 19

and then we came back to Roman numerals for 20 so now we come to what this episode is really all about yeah class over time we have seen D&D embrace a number of different class distinctions and delineations. Yes.

Racial essential. The rogues need to seize the means of production. Exactly. Exactly. And that's professionally what they do, right? That's why they get their expertise bonus. Yes. Sorry.

But racial essentialism stuck with it through to about 2024. And even there, we see some troublesome stuff. But as each step forward contains its own problems and blind spots, it also contains efforts to improve on the prior steps. 2024 D&D was made in the time of massive internet culture and critique, and it was made in the shadow of the hugely popular gaming groups getting together in filming their games. So now you have professional dungeon masters way beyond the world of kink now. They're entering into gaming.

And there's all sorts of mainstream appeal here, and with that comes the need to be more mindful and sensitive to the very makeup of the game's intellectual and archetypical structure. So in many ways, 2024 is to 5E what 3-5 was to third edition. It's a reboot, a modification, a fix of several spots that people pointed out along the way. And it also claims to be backward compatible, which is largely true, but it is clunky, like I said, because in 2024 rules, there are 12 classes again, and each one has four subclasses. In 5E, there ended up being 13 classes and varying numbers of subclasses that stretched across multiple books. I'll get to the final tally toward the end.

Right. In the original basic set for D&D, I totaled up about 10 total classes across multiple supplements and the various core books. In the advanced D&D second edition, there were 31 basic classes across the various official supplements, and that didn't include modular and world differences because there's way more if you include those. For instance, in Al-Qadim, the Arabian Nights flavored part of the forgotten realms, there's 34 specific classes.

And yes, many of them are, in fact, just re-skins of the more occidental type that you find in regular D&D. There was a, I forget the name of it, but there was a paladin, but it was the desert paladin. Or it wasn't a desert paladin, but you get the idea. It was the Al-Aidian paladin.

And so there's a lot of flair and flavor, but it's distinctions without a difference. It's you wanted to play the Arabian Nights version of D&D. Here you go. Here are the terms. Here is a pronunciation guide. And I love that. I thought that was cool. Now, in third edition, but that's why I'm just saying that there were only 34 specific classes.

Right, right. Okay. In third edition, I counted 84, and that's actually nowhere near how many of their actually were because quintessential this supplemental that prestige class the other an open gaming license everything yes one source that i found uh said there were a total of 125 classes and 712 prestige classes which sounds about right i'm sure there was some overlap there but yeah i can actually no i don't i don't think there's any overlap involved i think no there There were, in fact, that many facets on that particular very large gemstone.

And given the rise of internet culture at that time, right? The amount of people with Angel Fire websites and the open gaming license being what it was, the number is likely well over a thousand, given the amount of homebrew websites that predate Reddit and shit like that. I'm sorry, I'm stuck on you using Angel Fire. I feel like Angel Fire was earlier than that, but I could be wrong. on. It doesn't mean people didn't convert them and use them. Tripod,

whatever you want to call. No, yeah, no, entirely correct. But that specific reference, yeah. Binged something,

something in the back of my head went, oh, God, the graphics. Yeah. Oh, the dancing men on the back. Oh, God.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this will look really cool. It'll crash every fucking server or browser you've got. And it'll mean your page is going to take two hours to load. Right. It's going to take a while.

Netscape. Netscape. is going to have a nervous breakdown. God damn, you beat me to it. Well done. Well done. I was just about to say. I was so pissed when Netscape went under.

I love Netscape. I hated having this switch to explore. Yeah. Anyway, fourth edition brought in three different player handbooks. Two different player guides and a few other sources leading to roughly 26 classes. And these were categorized into the defender, the striker, the leader, and the controller. So back to a four square archetype, but this seems to be more like a blend of gauntlet and AD&D. Number one and number two, what they had figured it out.

And this is, this, this was something that I remember, I don't remember which, which member of my group at the time it was that I was, that I was having this conversation with. But somebody who was, who was miffed about the way they were doing this categorization. I was like, no, what you need to understand is they've figured out that this is the way the tropes actually worked in the beginning. Yes. And those tropes, but nobody like understood that yet because nobody had been had been doing this long enough. Right. And the distillation of that into Warcraft and other MMO kind of spaces has led to people. figuring out this is this is how the the meta structure of this actually works yes because you

had people getting together for raids and it's we need another this right four of these yeah we need we need we need we need blasters we don't have nearly enough blasters right and so um so then having that having having seen that get developed they were like okay well we're going to now that this has been refined. Now that this has been defined explicitly, we can take that and we can bring it back into what is effectively the source

material and make this actually work better. And it was shit. World of Warcraft is eating our lunch. Everybody's playing that instead of D&D. Yeah. I mean, yes. There is that, of course, Hasbro, hi, how you doing? Yes.

100%. Yeah. But, for the game designers involved. Yes. Yes. The thought process and the evolution and the paradigm. Yeah, there was a leaning in that was happening. Yeah, yeah.

So, fourth edition included eight core classes in its first players handbook. The defenders contained the fighter and paladin. The strikers contained the Ranger and the rogue and the warlock. The leaders contained the cleric and the warlord and the wizard. Yes. And as more players handbooks came out, so too did more classes. At the end of it all, a total of 77 individual and or variant classes were in fourth edition.

And once you got to 10th level, there were Paragon paths and Epic Destinies. Then you fast forward, one, two, skip a few, get to fifth edition. Right. Fifth Ed had 12 classes, and then they added one later. Yeah. They kind of did the same thing with the races. They had all these standard races, and then they were like, oh, and also tortles. Yep.

And then and then, right? So it also had subclasses, which you, depending on the class that you took, either would obviate itself in second level or third level. Right. And I kind of liked that variance. I miss it a little bit. It depended on the class.

So that came out to about 133 different classes and subclasses. Oh, wow. So if you just add up all the subclasses, basically. Now, 2024 rules has brought it back down to 12 classes, each one with four subclasses. So a total of 48. But the promises you could still be backward compatible. So you could still be this washbuckler if you want to be this washbuckler, that kind of thing. Yeah, but we're going to need to tinker with some things to make it work. Yeah. Now, so tonight, finally, after all that. After all that, all that context, we're going to talk about classes that I'd like to see come back. Okay. That's all it is. I just I I Damien wants to see these classes come back. Uh, so first we had context. Second, we need definitions. So I can't even get to the classes yet. Okay. Well, but we're almost there. Yes. Yes. Uh, another hour and we'll, we'll be there. Perfect. All right. So we're so we're on par with what we usually do here.

Yes. Yes. Uh, so class is the thing that you do based on your path in life that you've chosen or fallen into. If race is who you are, class is what you do. And rules governing class guide your character's choices in a given game. Okay. Yes. Prestige class is the thing that you do, but now with PEP and Verve. It requires... You do it with Ilan.

Yes. Yes. It requires certain conditions that were met first. It started and ended with third and 3.5 edition. Monty Cook, the author of the DMG in 3.0, he basically said that prestige classes were for DMs to customize their world. Not what they became. Kind of in the same way that certain magnet programs that were aimed at like the middle performing kids

then became the way for rich parents to segregate their kids away from the bad ethnics and then use that to get into the steam school of their choice. Yeah. Anyway. So here's what Monty Cook said. The original design intention behind them was to allow DMs to create campaign-specific roles and positions as classes. These special roles offer abilities and powers otherwise inaccessible to PCs and focus

characters in specific interesting directions. Yeah. So a really good example of how that, in my opinion anyway, of how that got used in the way that MontiCook intended was in 3.5 when I don't remember which company it was did it

but when the Dragonlance rules got adapted to 3.5 the different orders of the Knights of Salamnia were prestige classes. You started out as a fighter or maybe a paladin and when you got to

fourth or fifth level you could take the prestige class night of the crown and then after you'd gotten through five levels of Night of the Crown, if you wanted to, you could go back to advancing as a fighter, or you could take on the Knight of the Sword prestige class. And that's a specific thing, specific to Crin, that you could do. And the different orders of high sorcery were also that thing. As a white robe, that was a prestige class,

red robe was similarly black robe similarly so yeah it could be done to work that way it could also be done to minmax the ever-loving hell out of a very technical build well and since you had the simulationist model still that's what kind of became um he so yeah i already i read his quote so they weren't meant to be a grab bag of slightly different flavored flavors of mokey um in the DMG itself, they said, quote, prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you as the DM to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your

campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself. Now, I always took this as prestige. Each classes were meant to make it so that the players didn't just go, all right, we walk into a room. It's 20 by 20. Okay, the monk you can get from wall to wall. It won't be a problem. And what's the monster? It's a bullet. Okay, does everybody have their anti-bullet thing?

Like, where people would just math better? Yeah. Like, you know, and this is before World of Warcraft became the MMO. This is when it was still a real-time strategy. So you can click on a sheep until it explains. exploded, which I loved. But so this, but people were doing this is like, you know, oh, well, we've all dealt with, you know, these kinds of creatures before. So we have a battle plan and, you know, okay, our guy didn't roll initiative the way he needed to, but we can still adjust.

Let's go with plan Chicago 3A, you know, and it's just like. Yeah. So I always thought prestige classes were for the DM to be like, oh yeah, you see a guard there. Okay, guards are going to have a wisdom of a plus two so we need you to at least roll this and blah blah and then suddenly it turns out he has a magic orb because he's part of the guardians of the orb prestige class and you're like what the fuck and yeah you have to think your way through it or fight your way through it you know yeah that seems to be what it was aimed at given where prestige classes were found and what was encouraged the whole goal was to literally avoid min-maxing allowing customizable neat features to encourage is to not worry about underpowered characters, too.

In fact, to get to a prestige class, you actually had to spend several levels sub-optimizing yourself. Yeah. And I can name a couple of problems with that, too. Your character now has a prescribed path instead of a story. Like, you're pushing them down the I really want to be a this thing. And therefore, I don't care what the DM is thrown in front of me. I'm not converting.

I'm doing this, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah. And I remember I had a guy that I played with where like he was a wizard, right? And he did wizard shit. And then he had a near death experience. And he went cleric. And we were like, fuck, you're almost seventh level.

He's like, yeah, but my character had a near death experience. And like half the party was like, it's pretty fucking cool. And the other party was like, the other half the party was like, dude, you're screwing us all. Yeah. And prestige classes were meant to stop that. But they literally created that because it's like, yeah, I have this end goal. of what I want to be for my prestige class. So I'm going to shove him down here

and I'm going to ignore all the side quests that would make it a fucking story. So if you're going to end up becoming an assassin, there's no room for your rogue to have a crisis of conscience and find religion and then become an apostate again. So when the story unfolds in that way,

you just sidestep what could be a fascinating Jean Valjean story and you're just Captain Kirk. Nice reference. Thank you. Now, of course, then came tome and blood, sword and fist. Oh, yeah. And so on and so forth, right?

There were already six prestige classes in the DMG, but these were amongst the first set of supplemental books that were hard to deny players at your table because I just spent 15 bucks on this. Yeah. And players do love versatility and variability. Right. Now, Monty Cook didn't like it,

and he said as much when he said this. The key there, the one that's now often missing is that these are supposed to be DM-created tools to lend specificity and actual mechanics to the details of your world. In short, you come up with some group, role, or whatever for your campaign, the Rangers of the Northwood, the Thiefs Guild of Bandambong, the Nightstalkers, etc. And you create a prestige class based around that group. Too many prestige classes are designed like second edition kits. player-driven PC creation tools for character customization. That's okay sometimes, but it really overlooks the main reason that prestige classes were invented. So that's prestige classes.

Now, subclass, if you think that the class choice, if you think of class choice as being like the associate's degree, then subclass is the bachelor's degree. All right, yeah. Prestige class was the master's degree to the class's bachelor's degree. Subclass came in a lot lower and they were the additional branch off cool stuff that you could get for sticking to that class. Right. If you played 3.5 as a wizard and you just stuck to fighter all the way, your differentiation from the other fighters would express through the feats that you choose, right? Or I'm sorry, if you played 3.5 as a fighter and you just stuck to fighter the whole way, you'd get a lot of fucking feats. That was the thing. But those feats were governed by different requirements.

And so there were kind of like proto-talent trees for computer games. Yeah, they were. But now it's expressed earlier in 50. And there's universally cool stuff for all fighters. So a third level arcane archer is going to look very differently from a third level cavalier, despite them both growing the same for the first two levels. Right. Now, in 3-5, the differentiation came at higher and higher levels. And I don't know about you, but there's very few games where I played. Well, honestly, I've never really played very long games where it's been level-based

gaming. Like the one that I played for 15 years was not a level-based system. Right. But now, you know, I'm 12th level in Strad now, I think. Oh, wow. went through a whole campaign with another group where I think we got to like 12th level as well. You still stop around 12th, which is fine. That's totally fine.

But like that's in many ways. That's where the prestige class thing really kicks in. Now I can do. And it's like, again, it's, I'm the most powerful. That never interested me. But. Yeah. So a moon druid is going to differ very widely from a circle of the land or a circle of the shepherd

Druid starting early on, which to the point where these subclasses in 50 and 2024 are are almost different classes. Very much. Yes. Vengeance versus redemption as a as my favorite class. Yes. A paladin and name only thing. Yeah.

Like no, no, I want to have I want to have smite, but otherwise I just want to be a stone cold killer. Like that's, yeah. Oh, well, okay. Boy, do we have something for you? Like, it's, it's what I love about the 2024 rules is, you know, the subclasses that they picked were different enough from each other that it really does feel like what direction would you like this character to go. And I like that. Very much.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, that is held over into 2024, by the way, the subclasses. They're all in on subclasses as a construct. now. And like I said, there's 12 different classes. Each one has four different subclasses. So if you want to be a draconic sorcerer or if you want to be an aberrant mind sorcerer, those are going to differ by quite a bit right away while still having some of the same cool mechanics as they advance at certain levels. Right. Yeah. And that doesn't touch off their specific subclass things. So now it's this really cool braiding together of different things.

Anyway, that's what subclass is. Now, with all of these additions, all of these changes, some classes have fallen away. Others have come back and are drastically changed from each other. But I have here a list of several that I would love to see come back as subclasses, since that's the current mechanism for variation. I've organized it by addition. Okay. So we're going to go all the way back to first edition, advanced D&D.

The very first one that I would love to see is the thief acrobat. Okay, I can totally see that. Yeah. Yeah. It's obviously a rogue now, much to your chagrin. In AD&D first edition, you'd have to spend five levels as a thief and then go on to thief acrobat at six, so like prestige level. Yeah.

Yes. Now you started at third. Thief acrobatts specialize in making the fight a three-dimensional fight, despite being bound by gravity, they tightrope walk, they pull vault, they tumble, they have access to lassoes and

in addition to regular rogue weapons. And the big thing here that distinguishes the thief acrobat from the thief proper is the ability because thieves can do the climbing and the jumping. Right, right. Second story work now, right? The ability to reduce

incoming damage and or boost AC through their own choices, on movement during their turns. Yeah. It's like a very nimble version of a battlemaster. Yes. Using their reactions, their faster movement, which can be augmented by leaping or pole vaulting like you do.

Also augmenting your ability to strike due to your choice of movements. Now, this did make a comeback in 2004 song and silence, the prestige class for rogues. Right. But I think it's time to bring it back into 2024 rules. if only to honor Diana's work. And, I mean, obviously, we need to pay respect to, you know, the legends. But I think additionally, this is a really good idea because of the way that it emphasizes

movement as part of tactical thinking. Yes. You know, in a different way than a lot of other classes rely on it. You know, and it could lead to some really great theatric stuff, which is always cool. Yeah. So, yeah, no, I, I, not the first one that came to my mind, but definitely, I think, a good idea. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm there.

Here's the next one. Okay. Jester. Oh my God, please bring back the jester. The jester was its own class, but I think it should be a subclass of bard. You've got dancing bards. You've got musical bards. You've got bards with stories. It's time for bards specifically with jokes, specifically with jokes. Because of a jester's physicality, this kind of bard also has faster movement than its base class. And the jester also has the ability to soften blows and landings through twisting and twos. turning with cat-like reflexes. Okay. It's the Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin. Slapstick. Right.

Yeah. They're different from Valor Bards in that they can debuff and disrupt enemies a lot more effectively. Gestors are not for fighting. They're for rolling with the punches. And what's fun about them is you could also add something to their subclass about having a troop of fellow gestures who join in the fun and end up taking more bumps for the jester. Okay The jester should be all about avoiding and getting out of damage or minimizing damage that happens to them, but also drawing agro because you want to hit that motherfucker.

Right. And they should be driving their opponents mad with rage. So like just the same way that like you could do bardic inspiration for your friends, bardic, you know, enraignment for your foes. vicious mockery as a class feature rather than a spell effect. Right. And again, they always existed in troops. So have the flying graces fly in through the window, you know? Like just and I think of them in terms of like the jester is, is to the party what the manager is to the wrestler in, in 1980s wrestling.

They're there to take bumps. Okay. You know? Okay. And to be honest, that's the only two classes I have for first. Do you have any first edition classes that you think should be added that aren't already kind of taken care of with other things? That aren't already taken care of it. Yeah.

Um, the, the biggest one that I was sad to see go. Mm-hmm. With first edition was the Cavalier. Right. And it's already, it's already back. Already back. Yeah. Fighter subclass.

Um, I, I would like to see a couple of things tweaked about it a little bit. But by and large, I don't. Yeah. I wouldn't say that it needs to be completely reworked. I'm trying to think, though. From first edition, I don't think there's anything that immediately jumps out at me as being something that I would want to see resurrected. I with possibly the exception of under cleric introducing the sohey as a as a subclass what is the so hey is that the the so hay was from Oriental Adventures in first edition

and they were a kind of cleric but in in Oriental Adventures you had the so hey and you had the Shuggenja and the Shuggenja and the Shugendia was very much the I am a spellcaster cleric and the Sohe was a you know what I flunked out of fighter college and so I joined

a monastery and like I know some spells but like mostly mostly I'm another I'm another defender like that kind of kind of

and that might have been what they what they kind of had in mind but there was no charisma requirement to be a sohe. It was mostly strength. Strength and wisdom. And I would like to see the sohei as a subclass, but I would like it to be more consciously reflective of who the historical Sohei were. And their relationship to Shinto and their relationship, their relationship,

to the shrines and the kami of the shrines they served. Okay. So, I mean, that would, that would be the first thing that comes to my mind. Like, if it's like, you know, put a gun to my head, what's a first edition class? You want to see it come back. That would probably be it. Okay. Cool.

So, yeah. Well, I have a whole bunch of others, but this is a great stopping point because then we can pick up with second regular and advanced D&D. Okay. And then go from there for the next episode. All right. Cool. Well, it's kind of weird to ask what you've gleaned, but that's what I normally ask.

So is there anything or you just have further reflection or? I think it's mostly further reflection. Sure. But seeing so very starkly how far the game has evolved. Sure. And the way that it went from what it was in first edition into the, we're streamlining things and kind of trying to simplify things for second edition into the, you know, we're adding some significant stuff to turn this into a fuller experience in third edition. Sure. And then the, we're going to actually muck with the paradigm now.

of fourth edition, which I understood and like I was cool with, but was wildly unpopular. And then the shift from fourth to fifth and then into 2024, the trend like the arc over time is toward individual choice for players. and narrative focus as a as a as a as a long-term arc trend uh you know it has it has come from okay we're we're gonna uh do a war game with you know individual individual characters to a no we are all now telling a story sure and i think the most fascinating thing about it is we're now going to tell a story is what we were doing in the beginning.

Yeah. But the mechanical paradigm didn't exist yet, if that phrasing makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it does. And now with all of the other stuff that people have done in developing other games and figuring out other systems and figuring out playing with ways to do it, the 2024 rules are, no, this is still recognizably D&D. Like, you can look at this and you can see that it is a new, a new derivation or iteration is the word I was searching for.

This is a new iteration of this thing that started out in the 1970s. But the mechanisms have evolved and matured, I'm going to say, in a way that makes it a much more narratively, focused in a much more player friendly, like in terms of you can do what you want to do kind of way. And I think that evolution has both been part of and because of the growing popularity of the game with a broader audience. Yeah, I would agree. So yeah.

Yeah. All right. What are you suggesting for people to? take in media-wise? I'm going to very strongly suggest that people go out and wherever you can find it, watch the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon series from the 1980s since we ended this by talking about Diana specifically. I think it's on Roku right now, by the way.

Otherwise, you have to buy the physical medium. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. All right. So, you know, go get you a Roku. and find that. And I'm sure you can probably find

like bits and pieces of it on YouTube. Oh, there used to be entire like whole episodes. Yeah. They would have like playlists of like, yeah. So but wherever you can find it, pick it up and look at it because it is number one, it's actually remarkably

good storytelling for a 1980s cartoon. The characters are all believable as being teenagers and and still you root for them. which as a middle school teacher sometimes that's hard and yeah

no it's just it's a lot of fun and when you look at the figure Avenger you expect his voice to sound one way and it does not sound that way yeah so that's my recommendation what about you I'm also going to recommend something animated

if you have Amazon Prime you can see this it's called secret level is the over the like the umbrella name of the series and it's a series it's an anthology series of like shorts animated shorts about 30 minutes

long at the most and the one you should look at is called Dungeons and Dragons the Queen's cradle it's a one-shot adventure and it's fucking amazing like the animation is really solid like it's really cool like the characters are differentiated

the classes are like it's it's it's good shit so yeah check that out cool yeah all right so cool where can they find us we can be found on the apple podcast app on the um amazon podcast app and on spotify wherever you have found us please take a moment to subscribe and give us the five star review that you know we deserve uh we can of course also be found on our website at wabubba wabubba geekhistorytime.com. And where can you be found, sir? Real quick. By the way, that's the only place

that I've been able to find episodes one through 43 now of our show. We've done so many that the other services are like, start us at 44. Oh, damn. That's as of right now. It could be that, like,

you only get this many. Right. Like, you only get 300. and we're just sailing on past that. I spent an entire day downloading all of those episodes and now I keep them on a separate hard drive so that we will have them forever. Oh, shit.

Which, well, that's good in case like we ever run out of content and we're like, oh, by the way. Here's a nostalgia. But anyway, you can find me first Friday of every month. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you can still get your tickets for the March 6th show. Also April 3rd and May 1st, Capital Punishment, 9 p.m. downtown Sacramento

at the Comedy Spot in Sacramento. Go to Satcommodyspot.com, buy your tickets online, bring some money for some merch, bring some friends, bring some enemies. If you are not in the Greater Sacramento area, then you could still go to sackcomitbott.com and get to see it streaming and check it out there. So there you go.

Like that's, that is date night. And there you go. But yeah, we've been doing it for coming up on 11 years now. So. Damn. Yeah. Anyway, for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock.

And until next time, keep rolling 20s. It would have been so funny if you said something different than keep rolling 20s for the D&D episode. I know.