A Geek History of Time - Episode 365 - That Time When Livy Wrote a What If Issue for Ab Urbe Condita Part III

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

When I think nuclear annihilation, I think... La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la I'm gonna drink a metric fuck time of coffee and hope that I stop right before I start seeing sounds That's one of my one of my favorite I don't know if you know like yeah favorite awful thing I get it I get it Like bitch took the ice trees meanwhile this guy is going into a unicorn cave This is better than the what is the orientation of the chicken strapped to your head question the essential part of democracy to me is not that I should spend a lot of time in governing myself, for I have many more amusing things to do. But I want to be quite certain that I can change the

person who governs me without having to shoot him. That is the essence of democracy. You mean herge? Probably. Okay. Well, I mean, yeah. I don't know if that's just, you know, my inner drama queen. Okay, so this is really hard because you're talking about like serious, important things to you. The amount of jokes that like I think they're funny as shit. History of time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. And I just got a new pair of glasses yesterday last night, as a matter of fact. And my distance vision has, has deteriorated significantly. I've near sighted since sixth grade, but at this point, like, I'm in my left eye, it's a mess.

And when I got my new prescription, the optometrist asked me, do you want to go to, what do you call it, graduated lenses by focals? And I said no. Partly out of vanity and mostly out of I don't want to have to learn how to wear a new pair of. glasses because of because of the you know everything down in the bottom is going to look all weird everything up top is going to you know it's just like I didn't I didn't want to go through that I was just like you know what I'll just just just distance vision that's all I need and I put them on last night and I turned to my wife and I said I can see everything now because my old prescription is like two years out of date and and it was it was removed

Markable how much sharper everything was. Well, then I came in here to sit down to record this just now and I turned on my laptop and I realized that I had to sit back in my chair and push my laptop farther away from my face because my distance vision prescription now makes it fuzzy if I'm too close to the computer screen. So congratulations to me. Welcome to late middle age or I don't know middle middle age. I don't know how pessimistic I ought to be here. But yeah. So I'm going to have to now spend some time figuring out what my reading glasses prescription is and be switching from one to the other for a while until I get a new pair of glasses.

And I'm not happy about that. So how about you? How are you doing? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a U.S. history and government teacher up here in Northern California at the high school level. And my daughter told me today that different cats have different sounds. Now, I knew this, but she was able to accurately describe the difference between all the different cats in her life. She has two of her mom's two over here.

Okay. For instance, one of them, he, what is the word that she used? He didn't catarwal. The other one, catarwal. But he like upsy downsy. It's almost like he's yodeling. Okay. He has a tremolo kind of thing going on. Yeah. But it's it's not the frequency is not fast. It is it is like. It is like. It is. It is appellation women singing. Okay. Yeah. Appalachian women singing. That's what it's most like. Okay. And then the other ones one, one of them just yells at you. She said another one just sounds angry at all times. And the other one, I think she said one of them chirps. And the other one. I think she said one. And the other one um oh god i forget what the word she used uh but it it was different than chirping but anyway four cats four different sounds she knows them all yeah which it makes perfect sense i mean it

does but i was shocked at how detailed it was so okay yeah i've only ever had like one cat at a time in my life usually oh okay so you've never had that don't notice to compare Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um, our two are very different. Um, Ronald whines.

Like he is, he is a complainer. And, and when he's not whining, he will open his mouth and he's gotten to a phase in his life where now he will do the open his mouth and then as he's closing his mouth, the meow comes out and it's like a squeak. So he'll do that one. And Luna will, in fact, yes. yell at us. Like,

yelling. Mm-hmm. And then Sammy late lamented my favorite cat. He would actually quack. Like, you'd walk into a room,

he'd look up and, and you could tell that it was, it was his version of saying, sup, but he'd look at you. Ma. Right. And yeah.

So, yeah. No, it's a thing. They, they, I guess because they don't meow to, each other, really. Right. They each learn how to do it to us in order to get a reaction, and they all, they all come

to different solutions. Yeah, that makes sense. So, yeah. You know, just, I mean, humans have different voices. You know, I get it. Like, but it was just interesting how detailed it was, and my son confirmed all of it. Actually, technically, they have five cats in their lives. They just have two sets of two.

And then the one that they're, uh, when, when their mom and I split, I kept the dog. She kept the cat. And I said, right, specifically. They should have an animal at both houses and I'm keeping the dog. Okay. Because he's a boy. Yeah. Anyway.

Okay. When last we spoke, I had broken down the different levels of reality for the Romans when it came to their grammar. Yes. Yes. Which is fun. And I think I capped it off by saying that when Livy talks about the possibility of Alexander coming to Rome, it is contrary. to fact past. That is, it happened in the past.

So that makes sense tense-wise, temporarily. But also, he's saying it in such a way that there's no fucking way he ever could have won. And that just leads through the grammar. And that's what I love about Roman grammar. One of the many things I love about Roman grammar is that you can get the tone that you say that I use all the time through the. intense usage.

Like, it serves the same function as, you know, the incredibly dry sarcasm that I'll use sometimes. Yes. You get that through the... Sometimes. Yeah. So, anyway, now that that's all done, right. I'm going to read to you my English translations of Libby 917, 918, and 919.

Okay. But I'm annotating them, just like I did with the fascists in 1945. Right. Just different fascists. So, so, so I divided up, most people divide it up. So it's like kind of chapter and verse. So this is book nine, chapter 17, and then each sentence is a number. So 9171, 9172, 9173, and on, right.

Okay. So like poetry or like epic poetry specifically, or the Bible, which is, categorized the same way as epic poetry. So yeah. So, all right. So here's Livy. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, go back two episodes and listen to the history that I gave of Rome's expansion through the shin and a crossover to the heel and how uneven and how sudden it was.

Right. After 200 years of just city stating around. Especially the sudden part. Like that's that, I feel like that's, that's the bit that. really needs to be punctuated is that it was this very long period of nothing happening. And then all of a sudden, oh, hey, we have all this territory. Yeah. You know.

Yeah. And I think a lot of it had to do with the, ultimately, a lot of it had to do with the need for food. So you took large swaths because that means you could grow that grain. And that was, you know, kind of the breadbasket of Rome until they finally took Sicily over, which then was the bread basket of Rome, until they finally took Egypt over, which was then the bread basket of room, until. they like just conquered all of North Africa.

Yeah. Well, in Egypt I think still remained like the major breadbasket. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm actually talking to my, my sixth grade students right now about the Greeks. And they traded with Egypt because Egypt was the breadbasket of the entire Mediterranean,

Aegean Adriatic for centuries. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So here's Livy. Nothing can be thought to have been more remote. from my intention since I first set about this task,

then to depart unduly from the order of events and to aim by the introduction of ornamental digressions at providing, as it were, agreeable bypaths for the reader and mental relaxation for myself. So that's his opening sentence to this chapter. So in other words, I never thought I was going to do this. Yeah. But here we are. Yeah.

And nevertheless. That is so self-serving. Like, you know, I never thought I was going to do this, but like, you know, while we're here, like, fuck you. Like, come on. Enough with the false modesty. Knock it the hell off, please. Oh, it'll go. It'll keep going.

I know. It's not me. It's not the girl here. It's the building, you know. Yeah, I know. Nevertheless, the mention of so great a prince and captain evokes the certain, evokes certain thoughts, which I have often silently pondered in my mind and disposes me to a moment and disposes me to a inquire how the Roman state would have fared in a war with Alexander.

Now, I do like this because, and the word captain could have been leader general, any number of words for the guy in charge of the army. But he's not just saying that he's the leader of the state, but also the leader of the army. Right. But I like that he states his thesis right away. Like, here's my claim, right? I want to know how Alexander would have done. So this kind of reminds me of the episode.

you do of like what if dune had met star wars right there is there is the same kind of you know let's let's come up with this fictional scenario yeah counterfactual uh yeah counterfactual the ultimate crossover episode you know yeah yeah superman versus galactus oh my son texted me that he's like hey who would win i'm like ah i think soups would win uh soaps would win uh so All right. Yeah. Galactus has gotten his ass kicked by enough people that I think seems to do it. So he's going to make mistakes.

You know, and Soups is going to start out by just trying to give him a Snickers, right? Because that's the way Supes works. He probably would have learned it from Doreen Green, who defeated Galactus by giving him a plan full of nuts. Yes. For real, officially. Defeated the real Galactus, not. Yep. It counts.

Yeah, it does. Totally. So anyway, sorry. It appears that in the war, the factors of chief importance are the numbers and valor of soldiers, the abilities of the commanders, and fortune, which, powerful in all the affairs of men, is especially so in war. Dude lays out his thesis statement with criteria. I'm loving this. So organized. He does.

What I find perhaps self-serving? All of it's going to be self-serving. Well, I mean, I mean, yeah, ultimately it is. But in that analysis, let's see. So he talks about the valor of the soldiers. Yes. Fortune. Yes.

And abilities of the commanders. Abilities of the commanders. Okay. So from military theory, from, you know, the history of people talking about, okay, look, this is how you think about war. Sure. Keep in mind, Livy, historically, was dog shit when it came to military stuff. Oh, yeah.

No, I understand. I understand. If you're picking on the concessions guy for not being able to make a free throw, congratulations. There's only so much. Yeah, well, what I want to point out, I'm not picking on him, but so much. I mean, I am a little bit because fuck this guy. But he's already gotten on my nerves. But so he's he's, he is deal, fortune.

And all, all three of these elements are one leg of the Trinity of Klauswitz. So, so one of the Klauswitz is, is one of those thinkers that no matter what you're doing, you're, you're somehow responding to him. You are either elaborating on his ideas. You are trying to counter his ideas, and I think you're going to fail, but that's just me. Or, you know, somehow you're either continuing his theory or you're responding to it. You know, in the same way that like any kind of superhero, anything, is somehow responding to Batman. Right. Or any Batman interpretation is responding to, you know, the original TV series.

Right. Okay. And the 60s TV series. So all three of the things that Livy is talking about are part of what Klauswitz would call, what was this term for it? The fortune of war. All of that is battlefield stuff. What Livy is either choosing to ignore or is just not taking into account is the political goals that are involved, the politics of the conflict. Yeah, he does never address those.

And because it's a counterfactual. Yeah. Yeah. And the will of the people. He also, which is to say. Famously does not give a fuck about the will. Does not give a fuck about the will of the people.

He cared about the will of the Senate. He cared about Rome conceptually, not the Romans. Yeah. And so like already I'm, I'm going to, I'm already ready to start like, okay, wait. Okay, wait. Like, but that's, that's,

that's, that's where my brain is, is coming from on that. All right. So here's the thing. Yeah. The political goals is the same political goals that everybody had at the time. Expansion or protection of the border.

That's it. Fair. That there's, you know, and Klausowitz is writing, what, the 1800s, 1700s? Uh,

mid-18, he's post-Napoleon. Okay. So he is, he's got 1800 years of intervening shit. Oh, yeah. including the invention of gunpowder and and the nation state yeah like yeah no i i fully i fully get it but i'm just saying yeah so it's just like okay i mean i i guess marcus aurelius was a really good

philosopher but he couldn't hit a curveball like that's kind of what it sounds like all right i understand what you're saying i understand what you're saying but what would what would abner double day think if he was alive then you know it's like well yeah It's, you know, you, the distance you could project your thoughts was roughly a sling bullets sling away because you could carve your thoughts into that bullet. That's true. And your thoughts would be something like surprise or take that or in your face quite literally. Literally, which is what should be aiming for. Yeah.

So, all right. I understand. I recognize I'm being unfair. And right now I kind of don't care. So, all right. carry on. So these factors, whether viewed separately or conjointly, afford a ready assurance that, even as against other princes and nations, so also against this one, the might of Rome would have proved invincible. First of all, to begin by comparing commanders, I do not deny that Alexander

was a remarkable general. Still, his fame was enhanced by the fact that he was a sole commander, and the further fact that he died young in the flood of tide of success, in the flood tide of success, when as yet he had experienced no other lot. Okay, all right. So he Jesus, not Elvis. Yeah. Yeah, he was not Elvis, but lead singer of the doors. Shit, why am I blanking? Oh, Jim Morrison.

Jim Morrison. Yeah. Jim Morrison, not Elvis. Yeah. Okay. So and you know frankly Alexander gives off way more of a Jim Morrison vibe You know

I know that you say I could just see that kind of like Yeah like that whole bear chest Yeah I bet you he did talk in a baritone I'm sure he did I'm sure he did Oh wow yeah he's talking to the oracle is like You know that it would be untrue So okay let's talk about fortune for just second

I'm gonna break away for a minute Cicero also made a lot lot of hay over the role that fortune plays in the passing of battle so did see caesar by the way and in fact caesar even stated in his own de bellogalico uh that there was only one time that venus didn't protect caesar and his men and it was during the awful weather that fucked them on their reverse d-day attack on britain like caesar said this this was the only time that it appeared that like fortune yeah that he was not favored by the gods yeah yeah and and caesar claimed to of the Yulus clan, the Yulius clan, and the Gens.

And those were the people that were related to Ascanius, which means they tie all the way back to Aeneas, which means that Venus runs through his blood. Like that was the claim of that ancient clan of Julius Caesar. Okay. Okay. So it seems like Livy is making use of the same discussion points regarding fortune, which makes sense he's writing at the time that Gaius Julius Caesar. the legal name of Augustus was the emperor. So, uh, well, and he's, and he's building off of, uh, literary ideas, tropes, if you will, that had already been established.

Yes. As part of these, this kind of discussion. Yes. Now he brings up Alexander. It's obviously Alexander the great. Uh, there's some things to know about him. Alexander was the son of Philip, the second of Macedonia and was educated by Aristotle himself until he was 16.

Alexander became the king when his father was assassinated. Now, Philip's assassination happened at the celebration of the wedding of Philip's brother-in-law. Alexander I the first of Epirus. And put a pin in his name. We'll be back to it later. Yeah. Philip was murdered by his own bodyguard, and his fourth wife, Olympias, was Alexander's mom. Alexander, then 20, took over Macedon.

And by the time Alexander was king, he'd already been regent in his father's absence and led multiple military actions leading up to the assassination. Right. Alexander and his father, Philip, had also engaged in military conquest together. Before his father was even cold, Alexander was proclaimed king. And he immediately set out to eliminate all the other claimants to the throne. Like you do. Yeah, this included cousins and some of his father's other wives and kids. as well as powerful generals.

So imagine your dad gets killed and you're 20 and you immediately set out on a murder spree, which means you have these people named in your mind already. Like the amount of adulting that I did at 20 is way more than a person at 20 should do. Yeah. And I was nowhere near this. Well, I mean, are we going to get into the theories about this? Like, there are conspiracy theories, because there are theories about a conspiracy, that, you know, his Alexander's mother, like, arranged the whole thing. Right.

You know, in order to get Alexander on the throne. And so everything was already lined up. And it was like, okay, when this happens, this is everybody that needs to get whacked. Right. I would not go so far as to assign her agency on that. Okay. I would go so far as to assign her advisory to him about if it happens, make sure you do ABCD. Okay, yes.

That was the next thing I was going to say it was, even if we don't assume it was a plot to kill him and then do all of that, it was living in that environment, that Byzantine before the Byzantines. Yes. Kind of kind of environment, that court intrigue kind of, kind of mill you. you would be looking around you all the time just as a matter of survival. Which is how the king wanted it too, because then the balls would not arise. They're too busy.

Because as long as everybody underneath him is, you know, in a, in a, call it a Spartan standoff. You know, they're not going to be able to, no individual one of them is going to be safe enough to go after him. Actually, let's just call it a Macedonian standoff. That way we still have the same.

Yeah, that works. Yeah, Macedonian. So, yeah. Yeah. Alexander also then went on a military tour, subduing those who might see this as their chance to rise up. A tour. Yeah. And then he spent the next 12 years expanding Macedon's reach from Europe through Asia.

He's recorded as having had 20 major battles in that time and a victory in each one. He went 20 and 0. He was the Undertaker of his time. Nice. Undertaker got to 21 and 0. Yeah, well, Undertaker didn't wind up getting, you know, seriously drunk and overeating and, you know, dying of whatever it was that killed Alexander. Okay. On the third part, you're right.

Yeah. He didn't do that to death, to his own death. True. Very true. Okay. That's kind of what I meant. Yeah. Now, what else do we need to know?

he's called Alexander the Great for a reason. Pompy, years later, would do everything he could. Pompey, who wanted to be called Pompey the Great, who got sarcastically called Pompey the Great, until it's stuck. Yeah. Right. Pompey the Great. Yeah. Turned into

fuck, Pompey the Great. All right. You know, and it just, it memed. Years later, Pompey would do all he could to hunt down the fabled cloak of Alexander and go about wearing what he thought was the cloak with great pride. Really? Yes. Oh, I hadn't known that there was actually like a treasure side quest.

Yeah. Associated with that historically. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Now, no idea if it was the real cloak or not. Oh, well. Yeah. I have the shroud of turn behind me. I don't know if you can see it. So, um, wow. And I know that Caesar, Julius. Yes. Caesar. Um, apparent was, was said to have wept. Yes. At some point. Yeah. No, it was before his 33rd birthday.

It was before it's, yeah. Yeah. I think he wept at his 30th because he like, he's like, Alexander had done all this and I have it out of the shoebox, you know. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not quite accurate, but you get the idea. Yeah. So yeah, he becomes the measuring stick.

He becomes the one against which everyone measures themselves and comes up short. Now, back to Livy. Not to speak of other distinguished kings in generals, illustrious proofs of human vicissitude, what else was it but length of days that exposed Cyrus whom the Greeks exalt to so high in their panegyrics to the fickleness of fortune pangerics panegyrix panegyrix panegyrix I believe it's pronunciation the Latin in me does not want to pronounce a soft shot does not want to do a palatal yeah yeah and the same thing was lately seen in the case of

Pompey the Great need I repeat the names of Roman generals not all nor of every age, but those very ones with whom as consuls or dictators or as dictators, Alexander would have had to fight. So he's setting you up, right? He's saying that, you know, we got Alexander. He's this incredible guy, died before he could fail. That doesn't mean there weren't other people that he whooped up on. And shall I name some names?

And then he says, you know, we also saw the same thing early on Pompey's career. and we could talk about all the generals that lived at the time of Alexander. So he's not even saying, let's take our best. He's not even saying, let's go with Scipio-Africanus, let's go with, you know, Cincinnati's, let's go with all these guys. He's like, no, no, no, let's just stick it to the, you know, the ones that we know from now, as well as the ones from when Alexander was doing his thing. Right.

So other distinguished kings, he mentions, right? Livy mentions. He mentions Darius III is. is obviously one of the other distinguished kings. Right. There's plenty of other small-time kings and such, but I really think that Darius III is the one that Livy is making his point about. It feels like Livy is doing the,

I've heard of many, many people who say otherwise, and he only knows like three. Right. You know, I don't think he's talking about Tabinet II, the king of Sedan, around the same time of the first Samnite War. And I really doubt that he's talking about Piracy Sades, the first, the king of Bosporus kingdom, who reigned the total time

between the beginnings of the first Samnite War and the end of the second Sam Night War. I doubt he's talking about those guys. Right. It's possible, but that would be Livy going based on how important the Bosphorus was to Augustus, not how important it was to Rome at the time of Alexander.

So I don't think he is. But Darius III, at the time of Alexander was doing his, that Alexander was doing his thing, Darius was the biggest dog in the yard to the east. Right. To the west, the Romans weren't really amazing in any real way yet, although Livy would kind of retcon their awesomeness, but they were nowhere near the empire that Alexander was building at the time of Alexander. Right. Darius rose to prominence after distinguishing himself militarily in the 350s BCE and as a vassal for OCHUS, OCHUS.

We'd know him as Artaxerxes, the third. Right. Uh, Persian emperor. Yes. Yeah. Now, when the court eunuch Baguas engineered the murder of Artaxerxes and almost all of his children in an effort to better control who would come next, uh, Baguas instilled Arce's, then called Artaxerxes the fourth on the Persian throne.

Uh, this lasted for about three years when Artaxerxes the fourth decided it was safest to have Bagoas poisoned to death to solidify his own power. And of course, this meant that Bagoas would end up poisoning Artaxerxes the fourth and his whole family to death instead. So this then... So I poison them first. Yeah. Yeah.

So when we say the court politics have always been this way. It's true. Court politics has always been this way. Now, this, of course, is going to leave a huge power vacuum in place, which Darius ends up filling just in time. to have to deal with Philip the second of Macedon and then his son Alexander and for the next few years Alexander in many ways was the nemesis of Darius the third until Darius died in 330 BCE just bad fucking timing like Darius could have been yeah it's kind of like there there are several guys

that could have been the best wrestler of the last 20 years but for the fact that John Sina was on the scene yeah it just how it went you know yeah um and He talks about generals. I can't be sure, but I think this is more of Livy just kind of diffusing things. He might be making mention of a general from Thebes

called Epaminondad, Minonondas, who died about 30 years before Alexander got going. Okay. He, epa menonandas, really transformed Thebes into a regional power,

pulling it out from under Spartan subjugation through a series of battles. He's the one who liberated the helots. Mm. All right. Well, bully for him. Right. And his efforts set up the Macedonians to step into the void that the weakened Spartans had left after Epaminonandas beat them at Leuctra.

Okay. But I don't think Livy knows enough about that. You remember, he never actually went anywhere. So I think he's diffusing. But, you know. So Livy, in that sense, Livy is the. real world counterpart

to a phenomenon that Asimov describes in the foundation books. Okay. One of the signs that

the founder of foundation points out about, you know, the interstellar empire is going to collapse, is this

imperial official comes out and gets into this back and forth and this imperial official.

is this very learned, very knowledgeable scholar about ancient history. And over the course of the conversation, it becomes revealed that he's this big expert, but he's never actually visited a single archaeological site in his entire career. He's never gone anywhere. He's never, you know, actually seeing any of these things. It's just, you know, well, we know this from what the ancients have written down about it. And he only talks about secondary sources. and that's kind of the vibe Livy gives off.

Yeah. Yeah. It just, it's one of those like he's Stephen Ambrose. You know, he's, you know, it doesn't,

you know, it doesn't do all the primary, gets others to collate it for him, you know. So Cyrus, he mentioned Cyrus, Cyrus, Cyrus the Great,

ruled from 559 to 530 BCE, and he, lived for, wait, 559 to 530? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He reigned. Yeah. Yeah, and he lived for about 70 years. He was the beginning of the Persian dominance in a lot of ways.

So he's like the Persian progenitor. He started as a vassal of the median empire, like his father before him. And Cyrus was part of a larger rebellion of multiple kingdoms against the median empire from about 553 to 550 BCE, which depose. astigia astigate astiages which left cyrus as the biggest bull in the woods at the time cyrus then reorganized uh mehres combined parsa parthia phrygia and the uh akai mened akamined okay okay okay you guys that's right yeah every time i see an ae i think i so yeah a kmenid empire yeah that that that that one

I know. And the Anshan kingdoms all into Persian Empire under him. Then he went to Lydia, which is one of my favorite places, and he destabilized them in a stale-mated attempt to conquer all of Asia Minor. Eventually, Cyrus did get all of Asia Minor under Persian control as well as Babylon, Sumer, and Akkad. Unfortunately, though, in his later years, he did not know peace, and this is kind of Livy's point. the dude lived long enough to see a lot of his efforts get undone so were so because he had so many battles and just by sheer volume by the fact that he lived so long he got to no loss Alexander didn't live long enough to get there he died trying to put down a series of

resistances in the scythian and masagetai territories and and that's that's large I think Cyrus is included there largely to make livy's point Like, look, you live long enough. You're going to get, you're not going to be undefeated. Sorry, you're going to get knocked out a few times. How do you deal with that? That's what matters. Yeah, that's, that's, yeah.

A valid thing, but also a very Roman thing. Very. Oh, we'll lose. And then we'll come back seven more times. And then we're going to come back. We're going to kick your ass. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is very, very similar to parts of the, American mindset historically. You know, on the world stage. Like, okay, yeah, we'll lose. But eventually we're going to fuck you up. See, I think it's been the other way for a while. We have deluded ourselves in the thinking that we want everything. Well, recently, yes.

Yeah. In our more recent history, we have reversed that trope. But. Yeah. The amount of people that think we won in Vietnam and Korea. and the amount of presidents who invaded places like Granada and and you know over through Panama and shall we go more modern but to to like wash out the taste of the loss of Vietnam. Oh yeah. You know, or the taste of the, I considered a loss, but I understand people would consider it a stalemate in Korea.

Yeah. You know, I think it could have been a you pushed them back and you could declare victory that. way but then MacArthur MacArthur snatched defeat from the jaws of victory but yeah there's there's that's that's a whole series of episodes there yeah but yeah

no I get what you're saying definitely do it so so the Pantagirics as you say this is just public festival speech praising people is essentially what it is so you go out there and you you know write a love sonnet about a person.

Greeks love to do this about Cyrus because he founded the empire next door to them and they could then use him to throw shade at his descendants who were making life hard for the Greeks. But it's like, hey, but you're no fucking Cyrus because he liberated people and was generally accepted as a good ruler by all. And it's like, yeah, but you're not that, huh? Yeah. You might carry his name.

You're a dipshit. You're a dick. Yeah. So. And then so Livy goes on. So he'd said, you know, but those very ones with whom as consuls or dictators, Alexander would have had to fight. And he starts a list. Marcus Valerius Corv.

I'm going to use the English as match as I can so I don't confuse me. Marcus Valerius Corvus. Gaius, Marcius, Routulus, Gaius Sulpicius, Titus, Manlius, Torquatus, Quintus Publilius Philo, Lucius Papurius Cursor. Quintus, I guess I'm not going to do the English. Yeah, I'm like, your Fabius Maximus.

Yeah, I'm just slipping right into it. Yeah, no, don't worry. I'm trying. Like, yeah, no, I understand. Then we get to the two Decky E brothers,

but you would say the Desi. Lucius, yeah, Lucius voluminous. And Manius Curius. So he lists all these fucking guys who were around at the time of Alexander. I'm just going to say,

don't worry about the anglicized pronunciations. Just go with the go with what it looks like. Okay. Like, yeah, we, we, me and the listeners are all familiar with your, your proclivity with this. All right. So let's start by talking about the first one he listed. Marcus Walerius Corbus. He's also known as Corwinus because fuck a universal name.

Anyway. God, the Romans in their names. Number one, they all had the same four names. Brett, Chad, Ryan, and Jason. All right. And then they're like, but don't call me Brett. I want to be called Lulu. And it's like, what the fuck?

You left Chet out. I feel like a lot of them would be Chet. Yeah. Like, you know, the crew cut, the whole. Yeah, well, it depends on the era, you know. So, anyway, you know, the early Roman generals would be like wighty, chick, bulge, you know? Yeah.

But yeah. So, Marcus Guileros Corus was elected six times to be consul. And he was appointed dictator three times. These are big fucking numbers. He was also awarded two triumphs, which is insane. One for the first Sam Knight War, actually. he lived at the same time as Alexander the Great, which is one of several reasons that Livy brings him up here. Also, Corvus, also known as Corwinus, is legendary in that he lived to be 100 years old in Rome.

Wow. Okay, because when you mentioned that he had been console, you said three times? No, six times. Six times. Oh, fuck. Okay, sorry. My bad. Yeah.

Because you had to wait 10 years between times of being. No, Chris's honorum comes off a lot later. Oh, okay. Because a guy would like, it's kind of like being department chair. You do three, somebody else steps in. You do three more because nobody else wants the job. But you can't do more than three because they don't want to just set up a kingship, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. All right. So the laws that I teach my kids as part of the Rome unit, we're not on the books. Those are courses honorum rules. Those are the Sulla, the Maurean reforms. Okay. And the sullen response to those reforms.

Got it. So kind of creates the curses on norm. Right, right. Prior to that, though, there was a lot of augury shit going on. And basically there's a lot of backroom deals of like, okay, look, we want you to be the console. We know that you were a console last year. So we're going to make you the secondary console, but you're going to be the power behind the throne of the country. Yeah.

Yeah. Got it. Got it. There's a reason I kept reverting to Rome when you taught me about Japan. Yeah. Yeah, I'm seeing that now. Yeah. I understand.

Yeah. So Corwinus was also, in addition to being 100 when he died, he was also similarly successful in the second Sam Night War, getting another triumph. He lived during the Third Sam Night War, but I couldn't find any record of his military service at that time. So I think he finally got to go out to pasture. Well, he was, I mean, how old was he in the Third Sam Night War? He'd have to be in his 70s and 80s. Yeah, I was going to say, like, after. a certain point the knees can't handle being in a chariot anymore.

Right. Like. I don't want to, I don't want to triumph. Why not? Are you that humble? No. I just don't have cartilage. Like,

have you seen the roads? They're well maintained, but they're cobblestone. It hurts. Let me retire. Yeah. I beg of you. I don't need anybody whispering, remember thou art mortal. I know it.

every morning. My hips remind me. Yeah, my hips don't lie. You're right. Sorry, I stepped on that. He lived, like I said, during that time. I couldn't find a record of him serving during the Third Sam Night War. He was also, Corwis, was also known to fully support the Plebs, whose fourth and fifth

Sekecio occurred during his lifetime as well. Okay, remind me to Ciccio. Sure. So the, the poor people fucking leave Rome and. go sit on the surrounding hills outside of it and be like, we ain't doing shit for you until you reform some stuff. Okay, yeah, general strikes. Yeah, general strikes.

Yeah, he seems to have been Rome's version of Smetley Butler. Kind of sounds like it. Yeah, you know, a tool of empire, check. An old guy who's like, y'all are fucking over the poor. So the next one he mentioned was Gaius, Marcius Routoulous. This guy was actually the first plebeian to be. selected as a dictator of Rome ever. Like previously it had been from the patrician class.

In 356 BCE, he gets selected as a dictator. Now, remember a dictator for those of us who aren't Ed and teaching about Rome, a dictator is elected for six, appointed for six months maximum and has to have certain auguries, like the birds have to fly just right, et cetera, et cetera, to go deal with a problem that the Romans can't handle through normal channels. Right. So they had dictators fucking almost every year. I found a list of all the dictators because they kept really good records.

They were appointing dictators left and right. And it kind of makes sense. The more far flung they'd get, the more shit they'd have to deal with. So they'd be like, all right. But you'd have guys that would serve literally like Cincinnati is a great example because he only served like 12, 14, 20 days or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's short period of time.

They would do that. And sometimes they would appoint. a guy dictator and he wouldn't get the job done they're like all right you're out let's get the next guy in yeah like that's how they did because they don't want kings so right anyway and that's a yeah and that's a cultural norm yes so is not having a back on the chair for the console because it resemble a throne too much yeah so don't fucking get comfortable yeah so what were you going to say though I'm sorry I think well you just just you know that they were they were as a society that serious about you're not a king motherfucker yeah we're giving you this power but you're

going to give it up and the individuals who got the job had that internalized yes that was that was part of their paradigm well and it was their path to wealth hey yeah remember how i served rome right right yeah give me a loan so i can run for this job right right that was yeah now uh rutulus was the other guy who led the Romans during the first Sam Knight Wars. So it was him and Corwus for the most part. It makes sense that he'd be included alongside Corwus. Routoulos was actually elected consul four times,

twice during the first Samnite Wars. The Senate never seemed to like him, actually, but the people really did, which is wild. Okay. And he was also elected Kensor over the Senate's wishes and got us trying. against the Senate's wishes for beating the Etruscans over on the coast near Ostia.

So why did the Senate hate him? Like he got shit done. Why did the Senate hate him somebody? Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. All right. Fair.

You know, because there's a few reasons, but like part of it has to do with how he didn't show proper, like, I don't want to say fealty to them, but like obsequiousness. Yeah, he didn't. He didn't. Yeah, he didn't, he didn't show the right level of respect. Right. They'd hand him the, the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, so he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, so, so he's, so piquius, uh, right? Right.

I'm pretty sure this is the one who was called guyu sullipius longus. Um, longus, huh? Longus, yeah. Biggous dickus. He has a wife, you know. Who do you find it funny? The same place. In the Continentia buttox.

Bow him to the foie. I'm sorry? So, Mr. Longus lived at the same time as the rest of these guys and at the same time as Alexander the Great. He was selected as dictator once, only once,

but it was during the Second Samnite War. So multiple dictators during Second Samnite War. And when he was a consul for the first time, he served alongside a guy named Publius Ailius Paitus. And at this time, the consuls were reluctant to go and fight when the Siddiquini were doing their thing until the Siddiquini attacked the Alunki, a coastal tribe of allies who were the northern neighbors of the Kampani.

And that's what forced Rome's hand. Go back to the previous episodes, you'll remember. Oh, yeah, no, I know. I'm just in my head trying to piece. Oh, yeah, this is me telling the audience. So basically shin, the shin to the upper ankle. Right, right. And so once their hand was forced,

Soapikius and Pitus chose a dictator at the Senate's insistence. And at first they chose Gaius Claudius Krasus, not the one of Triumvir fame that's right 250 years later but he speaking of okay so they appointed a dictator

right they chose this guy and he got selected Krasus did but immediately the augurs said it wasn't done the right way there were bad auspices and so he immediately was like I quit I'm not not fucking dictator

I'm not going to do it under bad auspices okay makes sense yeah and so in many ways it shows that they picked the right guy at the wrong time basically, right? Because like, oh, he's doing his duty. He's stepping down.

We want a guy like that, just not that guy. But when Supikius became consul for the second time, it was 323 BCE. And that was during the second Samnite War. And he led an army, but the Samnites just avoided open conflict against him. And so it was during his third consulship in 314 BCE that Sopicius had a great victory over the Samnites, and he got his second triumph right at the end of his turn. Okay. So consuls would get elected, and there is like, there's campaign time.

And by campaign time, I mean, go fight battles time. One needs to stay in Rome. One needs to go away. And so, you know, they would. And so in 312 BCE, he got selected as dictator to bolster Rome in the north against the Etruscans as the consuls were mopping up the second Samnite War in the south. Now, again, generals don't. don't serve more than a year in the field, right?

And they don't really, really, they're not serving more than six months in the field. So they want to get their shit done. And this like sharpens them to a fine edge. But also you don't get that done. There's another army coming through. Like, yeah, we, and this is a way of keeping your guys fresh and not getting them chopped down.

But also it's a way of like, and varying tactics against the enemy on some levels. And it's also a way of making sure that nobody creates a cult of personality. Could you imagine if one guy was in charge of one army for like eight years in a row, far from Rome? Like that would be disastrous. Luckily, they're too smart to ever let that happen. So, and like the downside to this is depending on who your opponent is and what the circumstances are that you're dealing with. Right.

Um, you know, in if, if you wind up dealing with a situation where it's a protracted campaign against an enemy, you're not going to get credit for succeeding. Well, one, one, as the general, it's a problem because you're not going to get credit for succeeding. Number two, like when the new guy comes in and finally, you know, mops up. Yep. But institutionally, the problem that you run into is there's no, uh, there's, there's not continuity of command. there's not continuity of memory, like the institutional memory gets, gets recycled. It doesn't, it doesn't, though, because the Romans are a machine. This is true.

And the generals are just bigger cogs. Okay, fair. And Livy will bring this up later on. All right. So that is true closer to the fall of the republic. That is true. Okay. certainly in the century before

well in the century that dictator that that Caesar comes to power right it is true during that time but actually what you're gonna call it um supicius basically so he goes north to deal

with the Etruscans right as dictator and he basically stared them and just stared at them until they chose not to attack like he just parked his army and just stared at them. Just stood at the top of the hill and was like, come on. Yeah. I fucking dare you. Yeah, kind of. Or like,

how about you don't? You know? Yeah. And not today, chief. And then he retired from the position when it was clear there was no need to attack. So think of all the Roman lives he saved. I actually kind of like this about him. All right. Yeah. That's reasonable. And after that, he seems to disappear from the record until like Livy brings him up as, like, you know, this kind of role. Now then he talks about Titus Monly

is Torquatus, which I love his story. First off, his name's Monlius. Now, that doesn't mean what it means to us, but it is kind of funny. Damn. But this guy was known not only as a great leader, but also terrific at hand-to-hand combat as well. Oh, so authority did equal ass kicking in his case. In his case, yeah.

So the Torquatus part of his name, the, oh, let's see, there's a pranomen, kognomen, nomen, and then agnomen. That's what it is. The Torquatus is an agnomen for him. It's something that you get honorifically given to you based on something cool. Okay. So Gaius Cornelius, Scipio, Afrikanus, the Afrikanus is the agnomen, right? Right, right.

So the Torquatus comes from the fact that he had a fight in 361BCE. He was military tribune, which I think you're going to like me for saying this. Think of it as being like a brevet captain. Okay. Yeah, that works. Okay. He was in the army of the dictator. Sorry, the dictator. Titus, Quinctius, Penus, Capitolinus, Crispinus. Wow. Yeah. Damn. All right. Now, Titus Quintius, Pinus, Capitolinos, Crispinus was at that time fighting the Gauls at the Battle of the Anio River.

and evidently a huge goal comes out to challenge a Roman he says send me your best fighter he wants a duel and that sounds pretty Celtic I can believe this yeah yes and and the Romans are like we don't do that here we're going to just thought to if he had a death but um he got everyone on his side uh to stand back and then Whitney Crispinus basically like looks looks back to his guy and Titus Monlius is like

I got this and they all agree that they're going to stay out of the fight not that this will necessarily decide anything but it gives everybody some breathing room and honor of the fight that kind of thing so mono e mono and the gall predictably was much larger than the Roman but and this is germane to the point

that Livy is making So this is actually really important inclusion as far as the guys that he lists. The Roman was better trained and more methodical. Okay. Because you can't fight effectively with your groin or your belly having been punctured or bleeding as it turns out. So that's where he stabbed the gall. Yeah. Yeah, that'd do it.

Yeah. Now, after the fight, Manlius stripped the gall of his spoyalia, all of his accoutremaul. Right. Among those items being something called a torque. Think early 2000s choker. You know, like, you remember the guy who would get tennis elbow and he'd have like a braided copper one, right? Yeah. You just kind of slip your wrist into it kind of thing.

Yeah. So this is a neck torque. T-O-R-C And it was made of ironing It looked a hell of badass On a thick, gaulish neck Manlius took it And placed it on his own neck

Probably with a bit of ease And that's where he gets the agnomen torquatus He who's wearing a torque Nice Yes And that became That's badass Yeah it is

I like that And that became a pass-down Agnomen to his descendants So now everybody's honored by that, right? All right. Very cool. Yeah. Now, anyway, Manlius Torquatus

went from there to prove himself as a capable leader, a capable general, a capable senator, capable consul, etc., etc. And Titus Manlius Torquatus was the one who was present when the Latin league's chief negotiator, Lukius Anius, got struck down

by Jupiter after being denied co-equal status by the Romans. Remember? He's like, I don't give him fuck what they say. And they slipped and fell, and they're like, Oh, look, the God struck him down. The God struck him down. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. He was also co-consul alongside a guy named Publius Decu's Moose, which I love because Moose means mouse. And they fought against the Latin League. The final story I found about Manlius that I really liked was that he insisted on a strict code of conduct for his soldiers, which his own son seems to have either forgotten or was counting on. daddy's leniency when he violated it. And essentially, every Roman soldier had to remain at his post under threat of death. Manlius's son went to fight a Latin in a very similar fashion to how Daddy fought a gall. But Daddy had different rules over him at the time.

And so when his son came back with the spoilia, Manlius had him put to death for disobeying orders. Wow. So you remember Horatius? Yeah. killed his sister after saving Rome, and they're like, oh, you can't kill Roman citizens. That's for the state to do. Right. Yeah.

And there's, I have a respect for that. Yeah. But this, this to me just goes to the root of the extent to which Rome was capital L lawful. Yes. The Roman. They're huge rules people. Yes. They're all about having a fucking system.

And they don't care if you're successful. Right. Did you follow the goddamn rules? No. Death. Did you save Rome? Yes. Did you follow the rules?

No. Death. Like, yeah. And this became known as what was called manly and discipline, which is where you ruthlessly apply the rules, regardless of the circumstance. Sola and Crassus both would equally be known for the same approach a couple centuries later. Now, Livy also mentions Quintus Publius Pilo, Philo, another Roman leader. who was consul when the Romans were fighting the Latins because that's, I mean,

it's like becoming a general during the Cold War. Like, you're going to have plenty of work. Right. You know? Yeah. He was the first plebeian to be elected Praetor, which the consuls, of course, opposed. And eventually, in 339 BCE,

Quintus Publius, I'm sorry, Publilius, Pilo, he, where did I go? Oh, yeah, he was the first plebeian elected consul. I said that. And then he was elected dictator to deal with the troubles that the Latins were bringing to the Romans. Once all this was done, he, Quintus Publius Pilo, who was called a noos homo. This means a new man.

He ended up consul again in 327. So to give you an idea just real quick what a new man is, there was a tradition of certain guys would rise to the ranks. the highest ranks. Certain families. Right. Anobu's Homo is somebody who got in there and everybody's like, wait a minute. He's not from one of the great family names. Got it.

Okay. So now he ends up console in 327 BCE just in time for the troubles that were arising around Palaiopoulos. There we go. Down on the toe of Italy, which led to the people of Palaiopoulos surrendering that and the dislike of how the Samnites were treated. treating them. He got a triumph for this surrender. And if you check the date, it's right before the Second Samnite War gets going. Now, after that, Pilo was deemed too valuable in the field to

be made to return to Rome, which was the custom at the time. So they invented a new position for him because they liked having him out on the outskirts of Rome keeping shit okay. this new position was the pro-consul. Really? He's the originator. Yes. Wow. So pro-consul is essentially a governor of their territories that are far from Rome.

He's the first pro-consul of Rome, the first foreign governor of Rome. And it makes a lot of sense that this position actually gets started around this time with him because this was the first time the Romans had any measurable territory far enough from the city. that would require remote ruling. They were becoming an empire. They were not yet an empire, and they needed a foreign governor to rule on behalf of the consuls

on behalf of pro, a pro-consul, if you will. And he's a plebeian, if you recall. So there's a lot of, he was a beloved among the people stuff in Livy's accounting of all of his excellences. So we're, as we're talking about this, we are watching Rome's governmental institutions adapt in real time. Yes. To these new circumstances.

Yeah. Yeah. And like also adapting to the fact that they're kind of top heavy with their leadership cast. So you need some sort of pressure to bleed off so that they don't make things inaccessible for their peers in Rome and choke up all the money. So pro-consul is going to make a lot of money where they are, too. And that was, you couldn't be a pro-consul until you'd become a console. If you haven't ruled in Rome, then you can't rule on behalf of Rome. You can't rule.

Really? Hmm. All right. Which means if you've been a consul, that means you were in general. That means you had worked your way up through. Now, once we get to the courses honorum, there's a certain order that you had to do it in, right? But you're gaining all this administrative expertise. And then once you, it's kind of like, once you, it's kind of like, once you,

you become president, then you can go on to be a regional governor of a part of the empire. Right. Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, I see the reasoning. Yes. Yes. And it's tidy.

Like, again, it gets very powerful people out of the city center doing the work that they're really good at, enriching Rome, keeping it safe. And now you've got more and more of these. and it just like it really yeah it's it's it's a really really practical system now during uh his third consulship that is pilo's third consulship he took umbrage with the fact that the romans had ceded territory to the samnites this is in 320 bc because he's like uh we do that to everyone else no one should do that to us um and this got the second samnite war started in earnest so his consulship was all sorts of successful and all it really did was start a long war of expansion

for the Romans so what's not to love about him for the Romans well yeah if you're a Roman yeah and and he does come back to be a console for the fourth time in 315 BCE yeah he had chops as leader and administrator obviously uh the next guy that livy mentioned was lucius papyrus sorry papyrus cursor um this guy's considered the most important in all of military Roman commanders during the second Samnite War. His ancestors were the first pontifax Maximus because they were from the Papiri and Gens. So there were originally a hundred families that Romulus named to being the first senatorial families, right? And they were part of what are called the Gentes Minores,

the less noble patricians, the Papyrii, the ones who came to Rome after the destruction of Alba Longa, after Romulus had selected the original 100, these were the ones who were part of the second hundred that were added by Lukius Tarkinius Priscus. So the Pipiri were, I think they were like the tail end of that first hundred. Okay, okay. I might be mixing the thing.

them up with another group, in which case they would be the second hundred. Anyway, Pupirius Cursor was the first Roman pritur to suggest that some people get half citizenship. And he said, so a path to citizenship, not just Romans and everybody they beat. And it was the companions. And he said, look, this will Romanize them after we've conquered them. He's like, it was called Kiwita Sine Sufragio. In other words, citizenship without a vote.

Okay, so you have the other civil rights of a citizen. You can be head of household. You know, if you get married, you become paterfamilious. You have that legal right. Yep. You have all sorts of things, but you don't get a say in the government. Again, like I said, it's Puerto Rico. It's Guam.

It's American Samoa. It's All right. So Pilo picked up on this and he continued this concept, Kiwitas Sine Sufragio, for conquered lands. The two really synergized well, it seems.

So remember, the dictatorship that was badly done according to the augurs, he's the one who replaced that guy. Okay. Right? The guy who stepped down immediately, he stepped in. Pilo's consul ships came at the most important inflection points for the Second Samnite War, although nobody knew that at the time.

But there were a good deal of augury and whatnot to legitimize his paths to power. And I'm sorry, I'm talking about Cursor, not Pilo. I'm sorry. So this is Papyrius Cursor. He's the one that replaced the guy who stepped down. Papyrius Courser was. And yeah, he picked up where Pilo left off. And he and Pilo were actually co-consuls in 320 BCE, Coursor was. And this actually came close to breaking a very specific law that was passed by the Tribune of the Plebs,

Lukius genius, Aventinensis, which banned consuls from being reelected within the same decade. But the Romans love their technicalities. Right. So Curso and Pelo seem to have run as a ticket on a slate because they did it again in 315 BCE, which totally violates that law. But, you know, rules are made to be pseudo-followed. So the Romans would just pass a law saying this is an exemption case. Right. And move on.

Yeah. Corsor was also one of the first Roman generals in the time of the Republic to publicly display the spoilia in a public space. instead of just giving them out in triumph. So he dedicated a spot. But we also know that Horatio did display the spoyalia during the reign of the third king. And that was already a known practice then. So I'm not sure what Livy is trying to...

Well, honestly, Livy's the source for Heratius doing that. So it could be that there's other historians that didn't look at that as being true because it was during the kingdoms and stuff like that. Okay. Right, yeah, yeah. Now, I do like that with these victories, the Roman Republic falls away from being its public austerity that it previously used to separate itself from the kingdom era. Historians always say that the Roman Republic started falling in earnest once they conquered the Carthaginians at Zama.

But I'm seeing hairline fractures here that turn into cracks that will then turn into fault lines, even this early. Well, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, the moment they really began expanding regionally that way, the writing was starting to appear on the wall. Yeah. You know, because a system like the Republic with the technological and logistical issues that were involved in the ancient world. Yeah. it's just going to become very rapidly much more difficult to keep the spirit of that system. Yeah, you're stretching the cat.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's going to start sagging. Like, and we're starting to see just like little frayings and little thinnings here. Even with this, because he is no longer doing the austere thing and giving shit to the people during a triumph, he's dedicating a spot and saying, this is where we will. always remember my victory. Right. Other guys are going to want something like that too, and now you're not giving it out to the people, and there's room for ambition to kind of wiggle in there under the guise of other things. Right. The Roman's greatest enemy is their success, and I want you to

remember that I said this because of what's going to come later. Now, Livy also mentions a guy named Quintus Fabius Maximus, and if ever there was a more Jimbrough, I want a Roman name for my fighter, I can win it D&D name. I wouldn't know it beyond this one. I think that this is actually a reference to the guy's father, Quintus, Fabius, Maximus, Rulianus, who was the Magister Equitum, the master of the horse, under Cursor in 325 BCE. Okay.

Corsor was dictator and had specifically said not to skirmish or fight the Samnites while he was away. Right. And so Rulianus went ahead and fought Samnites while he was away. And of course he won, but he also disobeyed his commander, and he faced the death penalty. Okay. The Rulianus fled to Rome and begged the people to intercede on his behalf. They did, because they like a victory, and Rulianus prostrated himself, prostrated.

Stuck his thumb up his ass. No. He prostrated himself before Cursor to beg his forgiveness, and Cursor then, removed his death sentence that he was going to carry out. So I love that Cursor had something that was there and then it was gone and then it was there and then it was gone. So. Yeah.

Now because this is Rome three years later, Rulianus becomes console in 322. And then he goes and whoops ass on the Samnites in multiple battles and his career went into the third Samnite war as well. Wow. And he was selected as dictator in 315 BCE. he becomes consul again in 310 BCE and again in 297 BCE. And when Publius Decu's muse was made pro-consul in 296 for the territory that Rome had conquered, they were two of the few who had their term extended beyond a year as pro-consul.

Such was the need and such was their excellence. Wow. Yeah. Now, after this, by the way, Quintus Fabius Maximus Rulianus was elected to his fifth consulship in 295 BCE. Now, Livy mentions the two Deki-E or Descii brothers. Right. This could be in reference to so many different excellent guys at the same time. Publius Dekeuse-Muse seems to be the most likely culprit of the first of the Deci-E.

This guy was co-consul with Titus Manuus Tocatus Manuus Tuquatus. Publius Decius Moos was from a family known to be known to sacrifice itself for the good of Rome. Like they were the lieutenant Dan's family of Rome. Got it. Okay. Yeah, they've all died in military service. Yes. And when an Oracle during his consulship, that is Publius Decius Moose, during his consulship in 340 BC, let him know that an army and the opposite armies general would die in a battle, he knew exactly what he'd have to do, save his army by being the general who died in a battle.

Right. Right. So he consulted with the Pontifax Maximus on the best way to guarantee salvation for his army and then he undertook the ritual necessary to prep himself for it. This was known as the Battle of Vesuvius. Decius Mous then drove himself and his horse headlong into the Latins. And at first he shocked them into not engaging. Little Eric the Viking shit there.

Who is this mad man? Yeah. But eventually they darted him to death. And once he was dead, they were still so split. that they gave his body and his horse's body a wide birth. It was this fear of trotting upon such a fierce dead enemy that screwed up their lines enough that the Roman army was able to flank the shit out of them

and Manlius used that to his advantage destroying the Latins in battle. And there you go. Yeah. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Wow. Yeah. Darded. Okay, when you say darted him to death, I just, I want to verify.

Uh-huh. We're actually talking about battlefield. Darts. We're not talking about Okay. Yeah, we're not talking like You know the tournament style Well, no, I mean, I mean We're not using that as a different term for arrows or javelins or something We are in fact talking about

Ancient World, you know, foot and a half long Whatever. Okay. Yeah. Wow, what a shitty way to get like a fall Because that's not a I'm going to throw this and kill that guy. That's a harassment weapon. That's a, I'm going to make this guy flinch and lower his shield. Right.

Wow, that's a lot. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's a death by a thousand stabs. That, that sucks. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, there's lots of really bad ways to go on an ancient battlefield. That's, yeah. That's, that's up there as, as amongst the worst.

Like, you know, getting stabbed in the gut and the groin is right there with it. Right. Not, not going to, not going to take anything away from that. But wow. Damn. Okay. Such a charmed life that I don't have any of these things happen to me. Like I feel so grateful.

Yeah, aren't you glad you don't live in this time period? Yes. Wow. God. So Publius Dekeuse Mousse had a son named Publicus Decius mous. Because of course he did. Consul Dan. Yeah.

Okay. So, of course, this one did his thing during the second season. Sam Night War. He gets elected consul with Marcus Valerius Corvus, which auto-correct said Marcus Valerese Corvus. Call me Lulu. And

so Publius had a son named Publicus. Publicus was serving alongside as consul with Marcus Walerius Corbus in the second Sam-night War. and Corrus was actually conducting the war in Moose's absence

because publicus Moose took ill that year and couldn't travel, which has big Augustus vibes, by the way. Anyway, while he was ailing, he appointed a dictator in his stead, a guy named Gaiusupicus Longus. All these guys are the same, like, functionaries. I mean, it really is like looking at Nixon's and Bush the Graders and Bush the Lesser's cabinets. It's like, oh, now you're...

It really is. Yeah, now you're Secretary of State, not Secretary of Defense. Got it, you know. Yeah, got it. Understood. Yeah. So Picius Longus, who did pretty well himself against the Samnites, after Moos, Gaius Publicus Moos, recovered, and his term his consul was over, Publius decius

the second ended up under the dictator Lukius Papyrus cursor yes that Lukeus Parparius cursor in 309 BCE Oh my God Almighty

The organizational chart on this is so fucking incestuous It's kind of like You look to your left You look to your right Have you done anything in the last two years? No all right do this

Have you done anything? Yeah okay Next year you'll do this Like, it's just a rotating one, two, three, not it. Like, yeah. It's, God damn. Okay. So the next year, Gaius Publius Mous the second, I'm sorry, Puglius Decius Mous the second.

He gets elected to consul again alongside Quintus Fabius Maximus Rulianus. Yes, that quintus Fabius Maximus Rulianus. And this time Moose went north while Rulianus went south. And then Moose dealt with the Etruscans so successfully that that year they made peace with the Romans. Three years later, he was Magister Equitum under the dictator Publius Cornelius, Skipyu, Barbatus. Wait. Wait, that's a name we haven't heard yet. That's a new guy.

Right. Also, Barbatus. I appreciate that. Yeah. The bearded one. Right. Nice. So he got around and kicked ass during the second Samnite War.

In 297B.Z, he was elected consul again alongside Rulianus. And then they took on the Samnites in the third Samnite War. And as Moose's career was winding down or because he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps, Publius Decius Mus, son of Publius dechius Musum, performed the same devotion and launched himself at the Gauls in the north at the Battle of Sentium, which basically decided the third Samnite War because the Gauls came down north because they were part of the attacking Confederation during the third Samnite War

and his sacrifice bolstered a faltering left flank against the Gauls and then Quintus Fabius Maximus Rulianus sent two divisions to succor those soldiers on the left flank and that combined with the sacrifice that Moose had made allowed Fabius to then outflank the Samnites in the center and carry the day ending the war.

Okay, so I need to get this off my chest. Yeah, go for it. Oh, no, go ahead. I just say the lesson here is if you want to be a successful general in any of these wars, make sure that family has a son next to you. Right. Because you know that shit's going to get taken care of. Yeah.

I understand now why you are such a fan of Roman history. Oh. it's because it's because you started out being a fan of pro wrestling and this is not wrong this is the same yes this is the same story arc yep happening over and over and over again and then they were made a tag team and then like and then this guy's manager decided that you know he was going to go into business for himself with this guy right yeah Then Mr. Fuji betrayed demolition against the powers of pain. Right.

Yeah. You're not wrong. And then he turned face again. Right. Yeah. Like, what the f- Okay. And then the people decided they didn't care if he was a heel.

They would still cheer for him. He would still cheer for him. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how he became intercontinental champion. Mm-hmm. For the ninth time. For the ninth.

Okay. So we need somebody to hold the belt. Yeah. We know you've done it five times before, but like, yeah. We're doing a loop through towns that love you. So. So. Yeah.

Suck it up. Yeah. Not incorrect. All right. So another guy that. Another guy that Livy mentioned was Lukeius, volumnius. This guy was elected console twice.

Yeah, volumius. Does that, does that mean what it sounds like it means? Yeah. Basically, you know. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I just.

Yeah. Okay. The big. Okay. Okay. It's the large. Yeah. Well, you had long goose, right?

Yeah. Well, I know. And we've already, you know, gotten 12 years old about that. But yeah. Okay. Anyway. It's an ancient Roman Gens, by the way. It's, you know, it stretches back.

Yeah. It's. It actually doesn't necessarily mean the big. It could also mean the well-wishing. So, like, having somebody named, like, Gladly or something. Okay. That kind of thing. But anyway, he gets elected to console twice, once in 307 BCE, and then again in 296 BCE.

His full name was Lucius Volumnius. Oh, I'm sorry. Volumnionus Flama Weolens, which is pretty fucking scary because it means violent flame light well wishing like or light big light violent flame wow okay now he was a plebeian who had served as consul with a patrician so that's fun um and he was a big time mover and shaker during this third samnite war his partner suffered multiple embarrassments and losses in the third samnite war but volumnius found multiple successes and had to make up for the failings of his co-consul.

There was some dispute about their communications with each other, but by and large, Wollumnius was most certainly the more successful of the two, and he traveled all over the shin and toe of Rome to do it. Okay. Then the last guy he mentioned was Manius Curius. And I think this is a reference to Manius Curius Dentatus, which means the toothy ones.

Yes. He was born with teeth. So there you go. Ah. Like the name Agrippa means born feet first. His poor mother. Right. Okay.

Yeah. So dude was born with teeth. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Dentatus, the toothed one. Okay. Yeah.

So. Holy cow. Yeah. So I mean, Spedley Butler's nickname was old gimlet eye. So. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, he had a piercing gays.

like, you know. I think he had a weepy eye that always had a sty on it, really. But. Okay. Yeah. But anyway, the toothy one, he was active during this third Sam Night War as well. Notice a theme here, right? That's why I started with the Samnite War, because it's happening at the same time as Alexander.

Right. He's one of the ones who gets credit for ending the Samnite War. He's one of the ones who actually fought against Pyrrus and drove him completely out of Italy. Remember Pyrrhic victory? Right, right. This is not the battle for which the Pierich victory was named, by the way, although it was the final battle that Pyrus would fight on the boot of Italy. Okay.

When Curius was done or when Dentatus was done finishing the Third Samanite War, he went back to Rome and started construction on the second aqueduct into Rome. Oh, wow. All right. Anio Wetus, which basically is the path from the Aniowetus. Lake Anio, the river Anius. Okay, okay. His reputation in his retirement is similar to the ideal that satirists tend to have.

He was grumpy. He gardened and he cooked for himself. All right. So now, Livy had mentioned all of them in a huge fucking list of like, let's look at the guys that Alexander would have had to go up against, right? Right. And I will name all these guys. So now you know who all these guys are, theoretically. Right.

after these come some extraordinary men if he had turned his attention to war with Carthage first and later with Rome and had crossed into Italy when somewhat old. So just by the way, these were just some of our extraordinary men. Right. Any one of these was as highly endowed with courage and talents

as was Alexander and military training handed down from the very beginning of the city had taken on the character of a profession built up on comprehensive principles. So the kings had warned, and so after them, the expellers of the kings, the unii and the Waileri, and so in succession,

the Fabi E, Quinti, Cornelii, and Furius Camilus, whom in his old age those had seen as youths who would have had to fight with Alexander. Okay. Oh my God, with the fucking name dropping. Well, yeah. Yeah. So Carthage, just real quick,

Carthaginians stretch from Libya all the way across to the north of Numidia, northern Africa. Okay. All the way through to the Strait of Gibraltar, up to the southern Spain until they get to the Pyrenees Mountains, across the Belaeric Sea, or the Belaeric Islands of Spain, and the islands of Corsica and Sardinia, and the western half of Sicily. That's all Carthaginian. Right. Now, the Carthaginians were led by Punic peoples.

these people were Semitic folk who came from Phoenicia during the Iron Age who developed, among other things, improvements in iron and uncolored glass. Oh, okay. Yeah. The Phoenicians at their height were the biggest power in the Mediterranean while the Romans were still in swaddling clothes. Right. Therefore, by extension, so were the Carthaginians. Carthage is started by Dido in the Aeneid. Right, right.

What were you going to say? Well, so I have a question. You're talking about the territory controlled by the Carthaginians. Yes. And we're talking about, you know, all of North Africa up, you know, and around, you know, looping back down to half of Sicily. Was that, I'm trying to figure out kind of how to phrase the question. Because, like, we look at the territory that Rome had now, like, taken over over the course of the wars that we're talking about. Uh-huh.

And that's a contiguous territory that the Romans, that the Romans are holding on to. Yes. When we're talking about Carthaginian territory, because one of the things I've heard, and I don't know how much I believe it, and you would, you would know more. Was their territory contiguous in the same way, or was it that they had city states that they controlled? You know, they had like strongholds, you know, at point A and point B, and we consider the space between point A and point B their territory because there wasn't like an organized state in the middle. Were they collecting taxation or tides or anything from that whole region? Or was it more of a, you know, we have our fortresses and our settlements, our cities, our colonia, whatever you want to call them? in these spots and they are spread out all through this area that we're describing.

No, I would say that it was much more contiguous looking. It goes basically until you, it, it start on Western Sicily, work your way across all the, basically go backwards the way I told you. Right. And you're going to go all the way through Tunisia and through the top of Libya. Right. And you're going to stop essentially when you get to what we know is Egypt. Okay. All right. So they really did, in fact, have an empire in that way. Okay. All right.

It was, I mean, you know, keep in mind, it was all very coastal, but at the same time, some of the best fucking land for growing shit. Well, yeah. And they were, they were major trade rivals with the Romans. You know, by the time the Romans got big enough to see them as rivals, the Carthaginians were major. were a major trade power because all of that was connected via maritime routes. They didn't use land roads. Right. But they controlled all that land too. Yeah. And by the time Rome was a power, Carthage had been one for quite some time.

Right. Okay. I'm trying to find the name of the city that would be like the, the furthest from the center. Okay. Their most far flung outpost. Yeah. That kind of thing. like the city

furthest away I guess Numidia would be probably a good um no kind of name they know they had that on lock

it's further further uh further what is that east um I can't find the name of the city but uh it goes it goes okay got it yeah

now um Carthage's military was the largest in the area, and its Navy was top tier as well. It was also largely a mercenary army, a fact that would come back to bite the Carthaginians when their leaders decided that payments for services rendered were optional. Never a good idea to not pay your professional military. Hannibal straight up told them you have to fucking pay these people. Yeah. Yeah, no.

anybody, anybody who plays Mech Warrior understands that like, no, no, I'm, you gotta get paid. Yeah. Like, fuck you, pay me. Yeah. Patriots is, I don't think you understand. I'm a mercenary.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Livy would come to call their army the hodgepodge of the riffraff of all nations. Of course he called him that. Yeah. He's a fucking Roman. Yeah.

But at the time of the second Samnite, A war with Carthage was still two generations away, and the first Punic War wasn't fought until 264 BCE. So if we're measuring it by the Third Samnite War, it would just be six years after that, because Romans just can't sit still. But still, as we're talking about Alexander ultimately, Carthage was just a way stronger place. And since Rome had developed a treaty with Carthage when Rome had just become a republic in 509. NBCE. They had a friendship treaty with Carthage as soon as they stopped having kings. That should tell you how far Carthage fucking reached. Well, yeah. Because as you noted, Rome didn't reach anywhere. Right. Right. So the treaty said that we're going to be friends and Rome and her allies were not allowed to sail into the Cape of Carthage unless a storm had blown them there. If anyone was shipwrecked, they had five days to gather materials and then set sail and leave. And if any merchants who were Romans or their allies could operate in Libya and Sardinia,

if there were any merchants who wanted to operate in Libya and Sardinia, they could do so only if accompanied by a town clerk of that place. Okay. All right. So protectionism. Yes. Carthage, for her part, agreed not to attack groups named in the treaty who were subject to Rome or Rome. Rome's neighbors. If they did attack such a town, they, the Carthaginians, would have to deliver it unharmed to Rome. Carthage couldn't build fortifications or outposts in Latium.

This is the shin. And on Sicily, all Romans and Carthaginians were considered equals, even though it was Carthaginian territory. Okay. So it's essentially, we have overlapping spheres of influence. Only the islands are open to both. Otherwise, each other's coasts are off limits unless it's a shipwreck or an emergency. And if it is a shipwreck, you need to fix your shit up and GTFO.

Exactly. Okay. Now, 150 years later, Carthage and Rome needed a new treaty because Rome, in 348 BCE, had conquered a significant amount of territory from people that the Carthaginians had relationships with. Right. And because they wanted stability after defeating the Gauls and Carthage wanted stability after defeating the Greeks on Sicily, there was a need to redefine their relationship. And basically, they reaffirmed the desire for friendship.

And in 348, they just agreed on new and bigger boundaries. Now, in 306, after the Romans beat the Samnites, a second time and gobbled up the entire boot, essentially. And because Alexander had died in 323 BCE, having knock-off or knock-on effects on all the areas around Roman Carthage, there was a need to reaffled. visit a few things. Basically, Rome was beginning to conquer all the people with whom Carthage struggled at its own borders on Sicily and Certinia and the tow.

And so there was another treaty in 279 BCE. But since Livy is talking about Rome before their first Punic War, I'll just say that the battles between Rome and Pyrus and Carthage and Syracuse led them to being the only two dogs on either side of their fence. Right. They did have a treaty about what to do with the defeated Pyrus and his territories should either of them defeat him and they promise to give each other aid if called upon. Oh, wow.

Yeah. See, I have that same kind of fascination. Like, holy shit, these guys were once pals. So that's a whole other alternate history. All right. Yeah. So Carthage and Rome had a friendly relationship and treaty all the way up until they didn't. And during Alexander's time, the two got along just fine.

to the point where they were willing to come to each other's aid. So Livy's claim here is actually very reasonable. Where he says, if Alexander had gone this way, he would have probably gone through Carthage first and then gotten to Rome as an old man, and he would have had to defeat the Carthaginians, and it's entirely possible the Romans would have sent aid. Now, he also mentions military training handed down from the very beginning of the city.

So in the beginning, Rome was three Curiai, the Romians, the Titiers, and the Luceres. Okay. Chiefen leader, bodyguards, and folks who followed them. Okay, right. Eventually, it gave way to what Livy claimed was the legio, the 3,000 infantry, 300 horse, each supplied an equal part by those families. Right. Warriors were then divided under six tribunei. or tribuni who served the king or the general.

And among these foot soldiers, there would have been pilum checkers and actual archers to a small extent, etc. Now, yeah. Okay, so I want to interject here to ask at this period of Rome's history under the kings,

did the kings maintain a full-time army of that size? Or was this like when? They called upon the people. to raise their armies for these things. There was no standing army per se. Okay, okay. And one of your duties, if you were one of them rich guys, was to keep shit outfitted and the swords oiled, et cetera, et cetera.

Right, right. Yeah. You know, just like when you talked to me about like British archers, like that was part of their duty. Yes. Was to, you know, every, every peasant, like, had to get good with a bow. Yeah. Yeah.

Spend your time on Sunday practicing at the butts. Yes. Okay. So once the Etruscans conquered the Romans, you have the kingdom. Right. And the army turned into the century model. And basically, if you were rich, you had to provide a century. It was how you did your civic duty.

It was also how you showed that you were down to climb the social ladder. You know, you provide more centuries. Okay. This makes sense. Types of troops were determined by wealth because the rich of you were, the better supplies you could provide. And everyone who owned property had to serve. But since the front line was where the glory was, that's where the rich guys went. I find this fascinating because it means that every time you go to battle, you better fucking mean it.

Well, yeah. Because you're going to lose, quote, unquote, your best every time. Right? Yeah. Now, the equites were the wealthiest because horses, duh, and under them were the first class, the heavy armor, the big breastplate, the heavy shields, the swords, the long spears. Right. These were your frontline guys. Behind them were the second class, similarly armed, but not similarly armored.

Yeah. And I'd be interested to find out, and it'd be a separate bit of research, but whether they were wearing a linen kit. Curis or if it was just no, you don't have body armor. You have your shield and your helmet and that's what you do. Yeah. Well, and their shields were oblong and not round. Yeah. So.

Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Well, it's, it's an interesting kind of departure from what you see in the Hellenistic world. You know, because the hop light is named for his hop lawn. Yep. which is, which is, you know,

a giant round shield that stretches from, you know, your upper lip to your knees. Mm-hmm. Um, and they had, if I'm remembering

what their stuff looked like, anyway, correctly, um, they actually had shields, at any rate, that looked an awful lot more like their Celtic neighbors.

Yes. Um, then, then they're Greek neighbors. Yeah. So. And then they would wear the grieves to take care of the rest of the covering.

Right. And then they would have a helmet. Yeah. And that was, you know, the majority of their armor, right? Right. That you have a similar influence in that first line. And then you've got the oblong, which is like much more romanized, right? Right. And much more for stabbing to the side like a pawn. And then the third and fourth classes, these tended to be a little bit more intermixed behind

those guys. Right. And they had javelins for throwing, and they had thrusting spears, but not throwing spears. The javelins are to throw. Right. And then you've got spears, right? Right. For thrusting.

And then behind the fourth class were the poor guys who had property, but not much else. These were slingers. These guys had daggers. And they basically were the screen in front of the main army meant to harass and distract the army. Well, yeah. And earlier I mentioned, you know, darts sucking. Like being on the receiving end. of darts, sucking.

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, the darts, which apparently weren't much of a Roman thing, were primarily designed to cause, you know, the big guys in the heavy armor to flinch and slow down and lose their cohesion. Right. And that's part of what Slingers did. Right. What I pointed out to my students the other day was, though, talking about Greek Peltas,

who were essentially the same thing, that if you hit. If somebody's wearing a bronze helmet and you hit them with a lead sling bullet, their helmet is going to ring like a church bell. So you may succeed in giving them a concussion on top of that. But at the very least, they're going to be deaf and disoriented. And that's the goal of that part of the army. So that when your guys with all the heavy gear hit them, they're not. cohesive right yeah uh and and so you had these guys run out and and like screen in front of them to kind of like soak up that damage now by the 400s bCE the roman military numbered somewhere around

5,000 men divided into 200 man centuries and when they developed manipoles during the samnite wars specifically actually this was where the manipole uh overtakes the phalanx right they converted it into 100 to 160 man mannipoles positioned in three 10-line groups. Okay. Right. And then the training. So a Roman legionary would train for four months before being deployed. Marching first, then weapon use.

Then they'd train with a sword twice as heavy as their gladius. Right. Then they would learn to spar and how to follow orders. The marching was to make the men bond. They'd have to march 20 Roman miles in five hours in the summer. Yeah. Yeah. That's basically 20 kilometers, a 20K.

A Roman miles pretty close to a kilometer. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. Also, walking in perfect synchronicity in order to maintain a shield wall no matter the terrain. This would trauma bond them immediately. Anybody who's done adrenaline ceremony will agree.

Yes, it's a trauma bond. It is 100% a trauma bond. You also got fed based on how well you trained. and because of this perpetual and repetitious training, Roman soldiers were remarkably fit and capable of handling all terrains, all weapons, and all sorts of enemies. All of the procedures were heavily standardized. If you were trained under one compi doctor,

you would easily fit in with another group if needs be. And while you trained with your tentmates at all times, growing closer and more coordinated, you were also fully capable of integrating into another group in very short order because of how standardized it all was. Yeah, it's a very modern kind of training regimen. Yeah, I would say that it's actually dehumanizing, and I don't mean that necessarily in a bad way,

in that you do not need to worry about individual tastes and preferences. You need to worry about slotting in and going on. Now, beyond that, it's incredibly brutal and terrible, but also recruitment typically started after a boy was able to don the Togapura, right? Having just put down his Toga pretext on, dedicated his bula to the larees, the household shrine. Right. And in order to join, you had to have at least 3,500 cistercies worth of property. You or your family?

You. Oh. Now, if you were, you know, in a family that had that, they would vouch for. and so forth. Because if you didn't own property, you might betray Rome. Right. Okay. And also you had to be a Roman citizen.

Yeah. Now, he also talks about the Expellers of the Kings, the UniI and the Waileri. So the Junia Glens was an early Roman one that may have originally been patrician, but it crossed over into being plebeian. And this happens sometimes, but the jury is also still out on this. Okay. That said, the UniI Genes were the ones from whom Roman. got its first console,

Lukius, Junius, Brutus. They have a long history of restoring Rome to a republic and avoid specific names because of Brutus' two sons because those two sons

attempted to return Tarkinus Superbus to power by helping their uncles overthrow their father. Ooh. Did I mention that Brutus was also a nephew to that same king? Eh.

Anyway. Lukius, Junius Brutus died the same year he was a consul in the Battle of Silwa Arcia, driving back the Wei'i and the Etruscans supporting Tarkinius' attempt to come back to power. Because when he got drove out, he tried to come back. Right. The Waleri was an ancient patrician family of Sabine heritage, actually. Publius Valerius Poplicola was Brutus's co-consul. after colatinos, the other co-consul was Brutus.

So it was originally Brutus and Colatinos, but Colatinos had to go into exile from being one of the first consoles. That's a reversal of fortune. Yeah, so like, hey, thanks for kicking out the king. Now get the fuck out. Fuck off. Okay.

Well, Lerius was also, so this is the one who's the progenitor of the Valerian clan. plan or the genes. He was one of the four who convinced the Roman plebs to turn on King Tarkuinus while the king was on campaign. So him, Brutus, Colatinos, and Spurius Lucretius, Lucretius, Chiquitinus, the father of the famous Lucretia.

Okay. What I was going to say, the one who gets raped. Yeah, Lucretius. Sounds familiar. Yeah. Also, I'm sorry. Spurius. Spurius.

Spurius. Yeah. And I'm assuming that doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. No, no. I don't think it means fucking liar. Okay. Yeah. Or anything like that.

Wait. Let me look up. I want to say that it actually is tied more to like the thing that you kick a horse with. But I happen to have a dish right here. Oh, it could mean of illegitimate birth, actually. That bastard. That's funny. funny.

Yeah. Well, that's, it's spurious, right? Yeah. Spurious. I don't think that that's the tie-in. Okay. Although it does come from a Greek word, I don't know, because again, Romulus chose the hundred best guys he could find. And remember, it was a, hey, everyone where you live hate you, come on down to Rome.

Right. So it could have been, like. Could have been that bastard. Yeah. Okay. But, you know, it'd be like if Lord Farquod had. a really good son or a really good great great grandson kind of thing right but anyway uh when brutus's sons tried to overthrow brutus and then reinstall tarquinius walerius was kind of the chief d a arguing for

them to be put to death okay this makes sense and he won and then colatinos went into exile colatinos by the way was the husband of Lucretia Lucretia. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, when he went into exile, Valerius became co-consul, and he led the soldiers while Brutus led the horses. And because Brutus died, Valerius came back with the spoils and had the first triumph.

Okay. Scorius Lucretius, the father of Lucretia, right? Right. The one whose daughter got raped. He then became the next. console. So in one year, I think you went through four consoles because he died a couple days later. Holy shit.

Wow. Because he's old. So it's amazing they ever got anything like off the ground. But at the same time, like you said, they were an incredibly lawful. Yeah. But organized. They'll do it the right way. Yeah.

kind of, yeah. So anyway, he gets replaced by someone whose name escapes me completely, actually. But Valerius continued leading, and in the next several years, he is reelected to console three times. And during Walerius' second year as console, Porcena attacked Rome on behalf of the exiled king, Tarquino Superbus. Cheapenny, Christmas. Porsenna is the one that leads to my favorite story in Rome, probably. But I'm not sure if this is the right prosena. Wellarius gets badly wounded and he makes a treaty with Porcena after Porcena leaves.

And then he dies and Valerius dies and gets buried within city limits, which is a thing that they stopped early on due to the fact that it's really messy to bury corpses in a city that has water needs. Yeah. And Rome even today is notoriously swampy. Yes. All the ground is saturated and yeah. Yeah. So that's why they were burning people. people. Like I used to teach geography 100 years ago. And when I did, I would make a big point about

you can tell a lot about a society's water needs and a society's kind of the biome in which they live based on their funerary rights. If you build a scaffold, it means you've got access to wood. But if you build a scaffold for the things to pick your bones, it means you don't want their corpse dripping into your water. Yeah. If you burn them, it means you have access to wood, which means you live near water. If you bury them, it means you're either traveling or you live where there's very little wood, which means there's very little water.

And then I would like go into like, now which groups talk about a bodily resurrection and which groups keep their family's ashes with them. And we started like looking at shit like that. Yeah, yeah, that's all makes sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So now we get to the Fabi E, another great Gens of Rome. These folks claimed that they were descended of Hercules and Evander both,

as well as being part of the roving gang of kids who ran with Romulus and Remus. Right. Evidently, when the kingdom had fallen and the Republic rose, the Fobbe E privately on behalf of Rome, but without the rest of Rome going along with them, took the fight to the what we call the Vai, the Wei, the Wei, over and above the objections of the Republic. Now, part of this was because of a falling out with that family and the other patricians of Rome,

and then the Fabi E had supported the plebs, and the patrician class did not like that idea at all. And the final battle in 477 BCE was a thorough disaster for the Fabian militia, made up of a huge swath of that Gens, as well as their friends and friends. alliance, only one survivor came back. Oh.

Two shreds, you say. Now, this was called the Battle of Cremera. Other accounts have them doing their patriotic duty and being a threat that only, and being a threat that only they could see in being the sacrifice that saved Rome from the way E. And that the sole remaining Fabian was too young to be sent to war, so he didn't go. So different Stories

Right What's likely is that the Fabi E We're more interested in the fight than Rome Because it was their lands upon which the way E were attacking Near the town of Fiedna Yeah and and what you said earlier about You know I understood

You understood Japan Because you looked at it through a Roman lens Yeah I'm understanding some of this Because I can look at it through a Japanese lens Yeah Okay, got it. Yeah. You didn't have our official sanction, and we're not really going to do much because all your people died.

But thanks. Yeah, but okay, cool. Yeah. Now the Corneli, no, I'm sorry, the Quinti, he mentioned. Another patrician family of ancient Rome during the reign of Hostilius, the third king. This is one of the families of Alba Longa, who was made to move to Rome in the exchange program that guaranteed both towns would be chill to each other after. Herati and the Kriatae or before that, I'm sorry. Right.

So there had been like an interchange. And so a lot of Alba Longans had friends and family in Rome. And a lot of Romans had friends and family in Alba Longa. So of course they're not going to fight each other. It would be like if you had a treaty organization in the North Atlantic. Yeah. No one's going to blow that up over like, hey, I want to colonize something that you own. Like that would be fucking stupid.

Right. No, that would be immensely fucking dumb. Yeah, I'm very curious as to what's happening in the world as of the release of this episode. Yeah, I wonder. I wonder. Yeah. But of course, hostilius blew all that up in the first place. But after the Herati and the Kriyatiy fought each other, they remade this arrangement. But now it was like forced relocations. So that's better. That was like hostages. Yes, it was. And again, like Japanese frame of reference. Right. But they'd already had this arrangement. But now they're forcing people to do it.

You don't get more lawful than that. Oh, God. Like, yeah. Yeah. Wow. So the Quincti were a minor gens at that time. And this is the gens from which Kinkinatus famously came. Also, Crispinus.

Okay. What are you shaking your head at? Sorry, just the way you pronounced Cincinnati. Fuck. Cincinnati, yes. Well, no, I mean, it's the Roman pronunciation, but when you say kinkinatus, I don't, I don't see the letter C at the beginning of kinkinatus. You know, the funny thing is, kinky natus, you know what it means? What?

Curly-haired one. Literally his hair had kinks in it. Okay. That's where we get that. That tracks. It is so wild. Okay. Yeah.

So Crispinus actually. also came from this, the one who fought the Gauls off in 360. Right. Several of this is what a real Roman is like type of people are in this family. Okay. Okay. Also, Quintus Publius Pilo was of this line. So still a Samnite war tie-in.

Got it. Livy also mentions the Corneli. This is to Rome, what the name Jefferson is to the U.S., I think. Super famous patrician Gens with many great names attached to it. Right. The Scipio family is from this Gens. Lucas Cornelius, Scipio Barbatus, the one who beat the Etruscans, right, during the Third Sam Night War, and Publius Cornelius Scipio Afrikanus.

Right, right, right, right. At the time of this writing, Livy knew, this writing being Livy's writing. Livy knew of both because the Punic Wars had happened about 200 years before Livy wrote his books. But he's also mentioning the family because at the time of the subject, that Livy is writing about, there's still the Cornelie who are famous and awesome to draw on

in Rome at the time that Livy's writing. Oh. So it's kind of a two for one. Look at how great we are that we have such legendary families that are alive today. Right. Okay. There was also

Aulus Cornelius Kosus Arwena, a man who'd served under Torquatus, remember him. Yeah, yeah. As Magister Equitum during Torquatus' dictatorship, as well as being co-consul with Marcus Walerius Corrus when the first Samnite War popped off. This family runs deep.

It would be like if I asked you to name the most talented Houston Rocket. Okay. Right. You might need to go to number four or five before you got to a legend like Moses Malone. Right. And for those of you wondering at home, this is the order. This is not for debate. Hakeem, Barkley, Hardin, Moses, Clyde, Samson,

Chris Paul, T. Mack, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Otis Thorpe, Yow Ming, Kenny Smith, and Robert Hori. DeKembe, Scotty, and Carmelo didn't spend enough time to be included, but that's the order. Got it. It is not up for debate. Hakeem is the best. This is codified. Yes. So let it be written.

Yes. And Robert Horry is on that fucking list. So, as a Kings fan, I hate Robert Horry. As a basketball fan, I am fascinated by Robert Horrie. So, anyway, the Cornelie were the Houston Rockets of Rome. Got it. So now, then he also mentioned Furius Camilus. And I think I'm going to have to stop after I finish with Furius, because we would know

for a spell. You know, this feels kind of like when I did the thing with the professor from Southern in California about the Einhorn-Holan. I got into like Polish politics, and it was unpronounceable people from unpronounceable places. Right. These are deeply pronounceable people, all with the same four names.

In different combinations. Yeah. Yeah. So Livy mentions a guy named Furius Camilus, which I think is Lucius Furius Furius Camilus. You guys would call him Lucius. He was consul in 338 BCE alongside Gaius Mainius

and then again in 325 with Decimus, Unius, Brutus Skywa but he pulled in Augustus and ended up sick enough to have to appoint a dictator Lukius Papyrus Cursor.

But it also could have been Marcus Furius Kamilus not to be confused Lukeus Furius Kamilus Right. And I think it actually might be Marcus Furius

Camilus because he did cool shit around the same time. And he did it like 100 years earlier is the only problem. But he outfoxed the way E, the Vai, which led to the Romans having better quarries from which to harvest stone. And further, Marcus Furius Kamilus was recalled from exile to become. So he was exiled. And then they called him back to become dictator.

Well, you know, if we think he's going to get the job done. Right. It's so weird to me, though. Yeah. Like, it would be like if someone divorced. me and then called me back to remarry me just to get through like border and customs inspections going up to Canada or something. Like it's just like, I just need you for the short time.

Like, God damn, that'd be weird. Anyway, so remember when the Gauls sacked Rome the first time, right? Yes. Not the second time and final time, but the first time. Right after that, he had been exiled for misappropriation of triumphal funds, which is a very Roman thing. Very. but right after that they're like dude we need you to come back and be a dictator and he's like okay cool

and then he saved rome from the galaxy sack okay now a lot of historians think that this was part of liby making shit up uh but there you go okay there was a bronze statue of him as a backdrop on the rostrum uh in the forum by the time of liby and he was often hailed as the second founder of rome Wow. I know. And I had to do research to find this guy. Right. So that is where I will stop.

Oh, actually, you know what? Indulge me. I'm going to go a little bit further. Okay. Because then I can stop after book 17. Okay. Or after chapter 17 of... Got it.

Of, yeah, a book 19. Okay. Or a book nine. All right. So back to Livy. but in the performance of a soldier's work in battle for which Alexander was no less distinguished Manlius Turquatus or Waleris Corwus would

forsooth have yielded to him had they met him in a hand-to-hand encounter famous though they were as soldiers before ever they won renown as captains so he would have whooped our guy's asses the decky-e Yeah the dek ye of course would have yielded to him who had hurled their devoted bodies upon the foe

that's kind of their fucking job. Yeah. Papyrius Corsor would have yielded. Okay. Yeah. Papyrus Coursor would have yielded with that wondrous strength of body and of spirit. The councils of a single youth would no doubt have got the better of that Senate, not to speak of individual members,

which was called an assembly of kings by him who before all others had a true conception of the Roman Senate. And I suppose there was the danger that Alexander would display more skill than any of these whom I have named in selecting a place for camp in organizing his service of supply, in guarding against ambushes, in choosing the time for battle, in marshalling his troops, in providing strong reserves. So again, I love all the criteria he's listing. Yeah. And I find it interesting, now that he's gotten away from his thesis, he's now getting into things that we see mentioned not only in in Klausvitz, but much earlier, you know, on the other side of the Eurasian continent from Sun Tzu, you know, the kinds of things that, okay, look, this is the thing,

this is the shit you're going to need to pay attention to. Right. You know, yeah. When you'd better actually feed your soldiers. Yeah, yeah. Feed them. Make sure they get paid. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. And I suppose there was, oh yeah, we already did that. He would have said it was no Darius whom he had to deal with, trailing women and eunuchs after him and waded down with the gold and purple trappings of his station.

Him, he found a booty rather than an enemy. and conquered without bloodshed merely by daring to despise Bain's shows. Far different from India, through which he progressed, all of this is Alexander, through which he progressed at the head of a route of drunken revelers, would Italy have appeared to him

as he gazed upon the passes of Apulia and the Lucanian mountains and the still fresh traces of that family disaster wherein his uncle, King Alexander of Apirous, had lost his life. Hmm. So he talks about, Livy talks about the gold and purple trappings of his station.

This was the sign of wealth that the Romans would have understood. Okay. This is Darius the third, not Darius the Great. This is the one that Alexander beat. When Darius fled, fled the field, and by the way,

Darius the third, correct me, is that the same guy as Darius the Great? No. Okay. Just making sure I wasn't. Okay. Just making sure I wasn't taking poetic license.

So, Alexander beat this one. When Darius fled the field at the Battle of Isis, Isis, I-S-U-S-U-S. Isis. Isis, cool. Finally. Darius left behind a great deal of gold, his royal mantle, and his own personal chariot. Alexander picked those things up, and here's where Livy is kind of combining two things.

Alexander stopped pursuing Darius because Alexander noticed that his own flank was faltering he turned to sucker them and Darius's booty was something that he picked up after it was successfully done So it wasn't the the fact that Darius left behind all this wealth that stopped Alexander

It was Alexander noting what was needed in the battle Now at the next battle The Battle of Gargamel which is awesome or Guacamella, as you untrained Klebs might call it, he again abandoned all his shit and his advisors. So this is Livy going, we're fucking tough Romans. We worship austerity.

We're not some fucking Darius the third shit. So of course Alexander had no problem routing him. Right. Now, he also mentions India. Right. Because the Romans had a concept of India. The Romans knew about India at the time of Livy. Augustus had actually opened relations with India as the first Roman to do so.

And in fact, at one of Augustus's triumphs, Skithian kings were present, if I recall, from the resguestai by Augustus, which I've translated. Anyhow, Cassius Dio, you probably call him Dio, also wrote about this, though over 200 years after Livy, he said, quote, many embassies came to him, Augustus. and the Indians having previously proclaimed a treaty of alliance concluded it now with the presentation among other gifts of tigers animals which the Romans and if I mistake not the Greeks as well saw for the first time but during Livy's time India was known as was a known place and those treaties that Dio would mention later were absolutely known and in fact there's evidence of Roman coins as far as Japan so there's definitely evidence of Roman coins as far as Japan so there's definitely evidence of

and trade in southern India as well. Yes. And since Rome had conquered Egypt fully, the Red Sea and the ports all around there definitely saw goods going into and coming from India. Right. He then also mentions Apulia. These are the mountains that are at the heel of Italy. The Lucan Mountains are the arch of the boot.

And both of these have lots of mountains. And these are where Alexander Vapyrus got lured to the toe of Italy. And then he got impaled in 331. Remember I talked about that. Yes. Remember, this was the uncle of Alexander the Great. Right. So we've already beaten an Alexander of that family.

Yeah, we already beat one of you. Not this one. Yeah. Not this one. I already beat Juan Sina. Yeah. And so that's actually where I'm going to stop it because then that takes us to chapter 18 in book nine. Okay.

So a lot of annotation there, obviously. Yes. Because it's easy just to read through and not know anything that he's talking about. I think looking at the actual history of what he's talking about is helpful to see what he's setting up for himself rhetorically and as well as just historiographically. So that said, what have you gleaned? that politics when a state of any form

becomes sophisticated enough politics is politics is politics it doesn't matter whether you're using bronze or iron or silicon politics is politics is politics

the tendency of the same group of people to you know percolate you know into positions of of authority and then stay there and swap out is striking

and the culture of trying to figure out how to verbalize it, but just the nature of how power and prominent families and all of that like if you've studied one ancient civilization

you kind of already know generally where the narrative is going to go you know and it just it points to where we're all just monkeys with anxiety like yeah you took a perfectly good chimpanzee and you've given it anxiety like what you know um well and I would say that you've taken a chimpanzee a creature already known for its meanness yes and then you gave it anxiety and then you gave it anxiety on top of that like what did you expect what the fuck Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, just the, the echoes of, like we talked about feudal Japan and the echoes of, of the narratives that we tell ourselves in our, in our entertainment, in soap operas and wrestling and whatever. You know, the stories are that way for a reason. Right. You know, that's kind of my biggest takeaway. It's like, you know, and as a species, we are universally disappointing. Yeah. Yeah, on, on, that's one way of looking at it. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think, I think right now that's my takeaway. Okay. And, and my initial, my initial take on Livy, right now, I'm in a bit more lenient mood. Okay. I think, I think my initial take has softened. A little. He's still awfully self-congratulatory.

Oh, God. But it's gotten less obnoxious. Well, I mean, he is literate at a time where only 15% of people were literate. Okay, fair. Like, I used to tell my students, I'm like, you know, because they'd be like, Harmony, how come we're using y'all when we're translating? I'm like, first off, it's second person plural. So it's y'all.

And they're like, but it sounds so, am like, ignorant? And they're like, yeah, I'm like, you mean like it sounds like a society that like, uh, rebels in like fighting combat sports and, uh, and like militarism and, uh, going and watching races every Sunday. Like, yeah. I'm like, and it sounds like a society that's mostly agrarian in its history and then only 15% of them are literate and they're like, yeah, I'm like, so South Carolina shouldn't use y'all?

Wow. Wow. Yeah So God, I wish I taught high school sometimes You know Yeah But anyway

So that is my takeaway Cool Well, what do you want people to read, watch, listen to? Well, talking about Romans I'm I'm going to strongly recommend That everybody go out And whether you've watched it before or not

Find and watch Monty Python's life of Brian. Oh, yeah. Number one, because Longus brought us around to Biggest Dickus and his wife, which is just a pitch perfect example of Monty Python's humor. Yes. In that, that is so incredibly immature, but it's also, it's done with such a level of art. Oh, yeah.

You know, it's absolutely not immature. I'm trying to think of the word, but it's, you know, age 12. Pureile, thank you. It's utterly puerile, but they turn it into genius. Yeah. Number one. And number two, because coming up here, I'm going to be looking at Life of Brian, and that'll having seen it.

That'll prepare you for kind of the conversation and what we're going to be talking about. And it's just a funny, funny, funny movie. So, yeah, that is my recommendation. What about you? I'm going to recommend actually people watch another movie called The First King. It's an Italian film, so Ilprimo Rae also,

came out, I think, in 2019. I first caught it on Amazon streaming. I'm not sure where you can find it now. but it is it's shot with all natural light it's set in the 8th century BCE it is the story of Romulus and Remus oh wow okay the characters are

they're just two shepherd brothers very loyal to each other and like just how they get through things and it shows just how swampy number one like you mentioned swampy it is fucking swampy but it also shows just how brutal and like how close to the bone everybody was living

and how close to how many flies were on the meat they were eating kind of thing. Yeah. You know? And like you're following two characters. Ramo and Romolo. Hmm. Hmm.

And it just, it's really, really good. And it really, it does a great job with the narrative. It does some interesting shit. And it pays some stuff off and really, creative ways. So really good movie. Nice. The first king.

Yeah. Where can we be found? Okay. Cool. We can be found on the Apple podcast app, on the Amazon podcast app, sorry, and on Spotify. And wherever you have found us, please take a moment to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know we deserve. And, of course, there is our website at wauba, wabba, wabba.

geekhistorytime.com. How about you? Where can you be found, sir? Let's see. I'm going to assume that you missed the April 3rd show. So let's say May 1st, June 5th, and July 3rd at the Comedy Spot in Sacramento. Come on down. Check out Capital Punishment.

$15 tickets. Get them online. Satcomityspot.com. Go to the calendar and grab your tickets there. Make sure you've got them so you don't get turned away at the door. we've been doing it 10 years now it's phenomenal keeps on growing

keeps getting better if you've seen some of our more recent shows you will notice that we are them based on certain things happening during the year so but yeah

come on down check out comedy comedy spot in Sacramento 9 p.m. Capital Punishment Spin that wheel so all right

for a geek history of time I'm Damien Harmony and I'm Ed Blaylock And until next time, keep rolling 20s.