A Geek History of Time - Episode 366 - That Time When Livy Wrote a What If Issue for Ab Urbe Condita Part IV

Episode Date: April 24, 2026

You know, the thing is, you have reached farther for less good. To be blunt, the money in tabletop games isn't great. We have to wind up with the Church of England because obvi, I'll start. I mean, you're here to be the expert, but in the pale. That one oddly doesn't make me angry. Because you know who's the boss. You know what? I'm going to keep my head down inoffensive as I can to everybody possible.

And that's it. You want to fight? I'm going to dry hump your leg until we're friends. Of course, reminded me of that one woman that I went on a single date with who said, you know, the downside about my job is that we don't show kids drowning anymore. We connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. And my son lost a tooth this morning, which, you know, is a normal part of.

life when you're eight years old. But we ran into a little bit of an issue because when he lost his tooth this morning, I was in the shower and he came running into the bathroom to show me that he'd lost his tooth because it's been wiggly for a while. And I immediately thought, oh, hey, when I go to the grocery store, I need to make sure to get cash so that, you know, the tooth fairy will have something to give him tonight. and went on about my day and didn't think about it and completely forgot about it while I was at the store until earlier this evening, my wife texts me from across the house and says, do you have any cash? And I went, oh, fuck.

No, I don't. And she immediately said, wait, he just got on his iPad. Don't text. because his iPad is connected to her iMessage account. So we immediately had to shift. It was like a military operation. Go to Channel 4. Shit.

You know. And yeah. So he is at this point likely to get a smaller payout this time than he has been getting because the organization bankrolling the tooth fairy does not have liquid cash on hand at the moment to cover the normal reimbursement. So, yeah, that's how I kind of failed as a parent today. How about you? Well, that's a loaded statement. I'm Damien Harmony.

I am a U.S. history and government teacher here in Northern California at the high school level. And interesting thing has happened at my school is that several of my students in several other classes have started grilling a few of my colleagues about me. And I don't really have a like, you know, a gag order on anybody or anything like that. So my students are like, Mr. Harmony, I hear you're a comedian. I'm like, yeah. I hear you have your own show. Yeah. I found it.

I'm like, okay. I have a tattoo of it on my arm. Like, there are posters from my show over the years on my wall. And you're just now figuring this out. And then another kid, Mr. Harmony, you have a podcast. Well, yeah, I'm a white guy with a beard. So yeah. We've made that joke so many times.

and it doesn't stop being funny. To the point where somebody actually thinks our podcast is called two white guys with a beard. And I am now a little bit mad that we didn't take that name. That we didn't. Yeah. Just to keep it out of the hands of shitty people. Yeah, that's true. But yeah.

And then I found it. I'm like, wow, you typed my name for spelling it right. And then the word podcast. Yeah. Your mama must be so proud. And I was like, you know that other kids have actually. made me like ceramic decorations of my podcast logo, which is tattooed on my other arm. Like I don't want to like douse their fire.

Uh, you know. But like it's like they figure out how to ferment their own urine instead of like making wine, you know? And they're like, look. That's funny. Pruno. And it's like, no. No.

For fuck sake. I don't even think it shows the cleverness of figuring out how to make Pruno. No. It doesn't. It's literally like, well, and it's literally like another colleague just told them. Like, yeah, no, Mr. Armonautominy does comedy. He's done it for a long time. Oh, yeah.

I know. Are you any good? I'm like, well, I just got my tax form. I seem to be pretty good. I seem to be doing okay. And then, you know, and then like, well, I found your podcast. I'm going to listen to it. I'm like, well, good luck.

it's going to be soaring over your head for a while. You'll get bored and leave. Yeah. You have a different demographic, so you actually do discourage kids from finding shit. But like me, I'm like, I'm so laissez-faire. I'm like, oh, it's fine. You're going to lose interest. You know, it's like.

Yeah, no, and I'm sure, and I'm sure my students would lose interest within like five minutes. No, easily. Yeah. The issue is how many times am I going to say, fuck, in those five minutes? And I don't, and it isn't like I'm worried about, you know, getting in trouble for that because this is totally unrelated to anything I do in the classroom. So like if they find it, whatever. But the pain in the ass of having to deal with it. Oh, sure, sure.

You know, and, and, you know, I am, I am paranoid. Anytime I hear about kids, uh, trying to look into anything, I immediately go on high alert just because. of shit that has, without going into detail, shit that has been done by students. Yeah. That, you know, frankly, should have involved a Title IX investigation, like with me as the victim.

But didn't because we live in, you know, the time we live in. Yeah. And so, you know, I was the one who breathed a sigh of relief that, you know, I didn't get a disciplinary letter for being harassed. But anyway, it's long story. And I'm not bitter at all.

But yeah, so I get really, really paranoid. But like in your position, I like envy you, the position of being able to be like, and? Yeah, I don't give a shit. Like, I don't care. I think there are two ways to fight a thing. And I'm definitely, it's one of those. I do not defend the walls. I open up both gates and let you run straight through the city.

and then I locked the gates again. Like it's just, yeah, yeah, I was, I was going to say you, you open the gates and, and, you know, start playing the fiddle. Yeah. Which is, which is a thing out of, out of Chinese, uh, legend. Oh, yeah. That's right. Uh, warring state, it's either warring states or three kingdoms period.

And, but, but you don't, you don't even play the fiddle. You just open the gates and stand there like, all right. I might hum a jaunty tune. You might, you might. But I, I think, I think you're even more. more Taoist than that. You're just like, okay, whatever, you know, yeah. I have, I have trauma.

Sure. You know, that's, that's an issue for me. But yeah. Anyway. So, and then the kids, they're developing, they're figuring these things out in finger quotes, figuring these things out in the same way that you figure out that a change machine gives you four quarters if you put in a dollar. Yeah.

And as they figure these things out, they're like building lore about me, which is just hilarious. Oh, that has to be. Like, have you learned any of this lore? Because again, I don't care enough. Like, it's one of those. You're curious enough to ask the question, but not to listen for the answer. You know, that kind of thing. That's about where I'm at.

Like, oh, that's funny. Moving on. I need you to understand that, like, you need to do this for me. Like as your friend who lives vicariously through your situation as a high school teacher Instead of having to deal with middle schoolers like I I want to know okay I really like what are they what have they made up about you Right you know because like I've said it before I'll say it again if I can convince even one student to legitimately think that I'm a werewolf hunter or a wizard Like even if it only lasts for a minute and a half, then my whole year will be made. Well, keep in mind also, I've had a parent bring a half a ream of paper of things that she's printed out from newspaper articles about me.

Well, yeah. So. Yeah, right. And I sat there and went, yeah. Did you read the whole thing? Do you want me to pull up my file of retractions? like what are we doing? Like what do you want here?

Yeah. So anyway. So when last we left it, we just finished book 17. Yes. I'm sorry, book nine chapter 17. Chapter 17, yes.

And so now we're going to be chapter 18. So remember Livy has basically laid out like, you know, there were a bunch of guys who Alex would have run into and it wouldn't have gone well for it. Any one of them, any one of them could have could have raffle stomped his ass. Right. And acknowledging like, oh no, he would have whooped their ass physically, but that's it. And then, you know, he's very much showing how much he respects Pompey in a lot of ways. Right. In doing this. So here we are 18. And we are speaking of an

Alexander, not yet overwhelmed with prosperity, which none has ever been less able to bear. like wow okay wait uh overwhelmed with prosperity yeah like when he wins and suddenly he's like weighed down with the booty of winning again livi is pulling on the austerity right right right yeah yeah yeah right which none has ever been less able to bear which wow yeah excuse you sir yeah for viewing him in the light of his new fortune and of the new character If I may use the expression, which he has assumed as conqueror, he would evidently have come to Italy more like Darius than like Alexander, at the head of an army that had forgotten Macedonia and was already adopting the degenerate customs of the Persians.

Okay, wait. Go back, okay, and was already adopting the degenerate customs of the Persians. Um, wow. You remember the critiques that Alexander's army had, right? Yeah. You're acting less like a Macedonian and more like a Persian. More like, yeah, yeah. And that's his point.

He's like, no, he would have come more like Darius, which remember, Darius, one of the reasons he got his ass kicked was because he, well, one of the, one of the many, many factors that led to him getting his ass kicked was his refusal to not bring along his, like, retinue, you know. Yeah, his, his onto rise. bringing his entire, basically his entire court and all of the trappings with him. Yeah. Yeah. So now, he's talking of the degenerate customs of the Persians. So basically when Alexander the Great conquered Babylon, he became king of Babylon. And instead of showing the Babylonians that they were under new ownership with new gods,

Alexander, keen to continue going east, showed them that he was one of them, keeping the trappings that they were used to so that he could better draw on them for military aid and money without having to worry about a rebellion at his back as he continued into the Indus. Yeah. And like from a, from a modern standpoint, that's, that's, you know, real politic. That's a, that's a wise thing to do. Two, like, the Babylonians aren't the only ones he did that with. He did the same fucking thing with the Egyptians.

Well, yes, but he didn't say in the degenerate customs of the Egyptians. He said the degenerate customs of the Persians. Well, yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying in the analysis of Alexander. He did this everywhere he went. Like, yeah. I think one of the reasons that he went 20 and O is because he, like, adopted the customs of wherever he was.

And those people were like, yeah, we'll give you, like, Army. Yeah. So. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, part of his, his, what's word of, what's a phrase I want to use, believing his own press. Mm-hmm. You know, it has to do with the Egyptians literally saying, you know, you are, you are Aton, you know. Right.

And, and him, him, you know, starting to actually, you know, drink his own Kool-Aid about being a living God. Sure. Like, you know, it would be hard not to in that kind of position. But, you know, yeah. And he showed the Babylonians that he had conquered that their king Cyrus was still going to be honored. and he validated their culture. So in other words, he was not culturally belligerent. He then promised to rebuild their temples,

follow their customs of sacrifice, and appeal to Persian gods. And by doing so, Alexander did alienate some of his Greek and Macedonian subjects, but his eyes were eastward. He was not looking westward. And so this orientalization, or even this reorienting, if you will,

was what Livy is calling out and I think I know why. Livy is writing for the audience of Augustus on some levels. And Augustus had a PR problem when he and Mark Antony began their civil war because Antony was the man's man of Romans

and Augustus kept getting sick in his tent and he was a young boy who had Caesar's good name. And a lot of folks wouldn't trust Augustus opting instead for the jock. But... Yeah. Augustus's sister was married to Mark Antony, and Mark Antony had basically rejected his Roman wife in favor of Cleopatra, and Mark Antony had taken on Egyptian customs and clothing, according to Augustus, and let Cleopatra rule him, a thoroughly non-Roman thing to do, and Mark Antony, according to Augustus, had rejected Rome in favor of the seductive, orient, degenerate customs of Egypt.

because that's where he was, you remember when they split the empire. Right, right. Yeah. So, yeah. So there's, what you're saying is there's a clear parallel here being drawn. Yes. Between Alexander and Mark Antony. Yes.

And Livy's pulling on it specifically to show here's why we would have lost or here's why we would have beaten Alexander. Just like Augustus beat Anthony. Yes. Okay. And, you know, he knows. he knows who his author or is who his audience is. Now, the other thing is, you know, Anthony,

Mark Anthony was so horny to be Caesar that he tried to do everything Caesar did, including Cleopatra. Yeah. Literally. And remember, Caesar had a couple of children with Cleopatra when he was on his barge cruise for a couple years. That's true. One of whom being Cesarean, right?

And so now Anthony is in control of the heir of Caesar. And Augustus, his whole legitimacy is wrapped up in the fact that he's the adopted heir of Caesar. So Augustus absolutely has to go on the PR offensive to make people recognize that Anthony has given up Rome and that he's being ruled by a woman who had once been married to her own brother. how gross which fair that is gross but I mean yeah yeah

but the Romans had no problem being culturally belligerent and judging other cultures Alexander seems to actually go the other way on that yeah

you know you say you say the Romans had no trouble being culturally belligerent I feel like it's a defining trait of the Romans that they were culturally belligerent

yeah I guess that would be like saying if had no problem being physical Yeah, like... Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so, you know, Cleopatra was married to her own brother.

The Egyptians had different gods. The men were perfumed and listened to Unix and so on. And by rejecting... Yes. When when... When I tell you that conservative bigots have always been this way. Yes. I mean...

that conservative bigots have always been. So we're coming back to gender norms. We're coming back to fucking foreigners, right? Wow. Like, nothing. Our species just like nothing. We haven't. Well, the people who lauded this civilization adopted a lot of this shit, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. But like by rejecting Octavia. And remember, Mark Anthony had kids with Octavia. Oh, yeah. And so by rejecting her and his kids with her, Mark Anthony was rejecting Rome for Egypt. Okay.

There's, I mean, there is a meaningful argument to be made there. Mm-hmm. And certainly pointing out that this guy has abandoned his wife and his kids. Right. Is, you know, that's a pretty dick move. It is. It is. When, and when, so, okay, in the, in the, in the.

Roman kind of milieu As the potter familius, right? Was there a particular kind of stigma? Because, you know, men in powerful positions do shitty things. Was there a particular kind of stigma associated with abandoning your kids? Like divorcing your wife for political reasons, like whatever, okay, shit happens. But like, these are your chival. children, this is your gents, you know, continuing on.

Was there, was there stigma associated with abandoning your kids? The focus was much less that and much more because it's the mothers who take care of the kids. So the focus was much more. He's rejecting Rome in this rejection. And remember, they're trying to recreate the triumvirate. Right, right, right. so not only is he throwing out Rome in favor of Egypt, but he's throwing out his alliance.

You know, he's recreating the end of the triumvirate, ultimately, Mark Anthony was. And so by showing that Alexander did the same kind of thing, adopted Eastern customs and all that kind of stuff, it helps to repeat the theme of Rome's austerity and authenticity in contrast to Eastern perversions. Alexander the Great embraced elements of Persian culture in a striking display of unity.

Alexander, by adopting Persian royal attire, including flowing robes, the traditional diadem, diadem, diadem. Diadem. Diadem. And getting affirmed as the king of Babylon, he signaled that he saw his role as more than just the king of the Macedonians, but part of a new world order.

Conservative Macedonians would cluck the shit out of their tongue, at this, right? Yeah. And Romans, they were very happy to rule people, but they'd be goddamned if their emperor wasn't going to be a Roman. Right. They'd been ruled by entrustan kings in antiquity, and they're not going to stand for their emperor dawning such silliness.

And so he's, you know, they're symbolizing, what's his face? Alexander's role is the ruler of both the Greeks and the Persians as being more Persian than Greek. And to further solidify his position, Alexander also married two Persian noble women. Because remember, polygamy was the norm. Yeah. The first being Stateria, the daughter of King Darius III. And Parisatis, the daughter of Artaxerxes the third.

And this only, I mean, look, he's taking on these wives, you know, this kind of thing. So this only served to further ingratiate him into the world of the Persians, much to the consternation of the Macedonians who thought Philip was their peak. So in... Interesting. Calling out these Persian perversions, I think he called them degenerate customs of the Persians, he is in some ways pulling on memories that people have, very recent memories that people have, of the finality of the final civil war in Rome.

Okay, that was going to be my next question was, you know, obviously, this is going to be something that's going to appeal to Augustus, but would the rest of the population of Rome recognize this parallel? Okay. And so most of them would have seen. Because again, Mark Anthony also failed. Like he does lose. Which is the ultimate sin. Love a winner. Yeah.

Yeah. So he loses. and, you know, he's seen as kind of a degenerate has been who was seduced by the East, essentially. The result being, okay, that Romans, tired of all the Civil Wars, because there's been three, like most people alive by this time of this writing, had been alive at least during one, probably two of the Civil Wars.

So Mark Antony, being the final piece, to fall to bring back normalcy under Augustus and all of his austerity and pro-Roman shit, they would maybe not see these parallels, but they would certainly be succumbed to them. Okay, so they'd resonate for them even if they don't immediately consciously recognize them. Yes. Okay. So, all right, back to Livy. I am loathe in writing of so great a prince to remind the reader of the ostentatious alteration in his dress.

and of his desire that men should prostrate themselves in adulation, a thing which even the conquered Macedonians would have found oppressive, much more than those who had been victorious. Of his cruel punishments and the murder of his friends as they drank and feasted, of the boastful lie about his origin. These are all the things I'm loath to write about. Right, right. Yeah, I hate telling you about this stuff, but, you know.

Exactly. So now he talks about the Macedonians. this is tied again to the fact that the Macedonians resented the heck out of Alexander's remoteness and his adopting Persian customs. It's like, bro, you're an absentee, right? Right. And basically, again, Livy is pulling again on the anti-orient thread of Occidental austerity that the Romans had.

Right. Persians couldn't conquer the Macedonians because they would have fought tooth and nail and they wouldn't have subjected them successfully or subjugated them. successfully because the Macedonians are so Macedonian, bro. However, since Alexander won and adopted those same behaviors that the Macedonians would have rejected, then it was much harder to retain their culture because their leader let them down. Okay. No Roman would be un-Roman, not even against Etruscan Kings or the Latin League or or, right?

Right, right, right. So the only thing that could have defeated the Macedonians was victory. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Victory, victory made them soft. Yeah, well, victory allowed them to adopt customs that they would have rejected if they had been oppressed with them. Right.

Okay. So. And then Livy also mentions his cruel punishments and the murder of his friends as they drink and feasted. All right. This is a two-parter. First, his cruel punishments are probably a... a specific reference to how Alexander treated Thebes once he conquered

Thebes. Alexander seemed to draw the wrong lessons that Aristotle taught using the Iliad that Achilles was the good guy instead of the ruination of such a temperament as Achilles. Right. Yeah. And so when he sacked Thebes in 335 BCE, Alexander

killed nearly all the men and enslaved over 30,000 women and children. And this led to other towns killing anti-Macedonians before any revolt happened. So, You can get gaslit by your own success. Alexander then turned to Athens afterwards, and it was only because they sent a skilled orator to talk him down that he spared Athens. Alexander also had suspected conspirators.

He had anybody he suspected of conspiracy, he rather tortured and killed, along with their fathers. Wow. Yeah. Now, it's funny that Libby's talking about this while propping up Rome, considering Roman history at Omer. almost any glance. But also the mention of the murder of his friend is likely a reference to Cletus the Black. Cletus the Black was an officer of Alexander's and personally saved Alexander's life

in 334 BCE during a battle. He literally cut off the man's arm who was about to kill Alexander. All right. Yeah. Disarming him. But umt. As a result of this and other Courages that Cletus displayed, Alexander promoted him to one of the two generals who was called the master of the horse under Alexander after Alexander executed his prior master of the horse for the aforementioned conspiracy.

Okay. Now, these two had a drunken argument in front of a bunch of people, and Alexander had more and more of those as he got deeper into India, by the way. Alexander killed Cletus. Okay. As the story goes, Cletus was mad that Alexander was again drunk. drunkenly reorganizing his military because it meant that Cletus would no longer be in Alexander's inner circle. So it was like, hey, why are you freezing me out? And the argument continued.

And Cletus basically said that Alexander's glory was actually his own daddies. And that he wasn't the legitimate king of Macedon. Oh, wow. And then he hit Alexander with, you're not even Macedonian anymore, bro. Alexander responded by throwing an apple at Cletus's head and then asking for a dagger. nobody gave Alexander the dagger because he's drunk and friends separated the two shortly thereafter okay

cleetus then came back into the room with the old and another thing and Alexander threw a nearby javelin into his chest yeah and that and that tracks yeah and then Alexander immediately felt bad because he was drunk as shit so again I've never been drunk I don't think I would be a fighting drunk but then after you fight your best friend and you drive him through the chest with a javelin, you immediately feel like being a sad drunk.

Yeah. And he tried to fall on the same. It's translated as pike. It's translated as javelin. It's translated as spear himself. But his friends wouldn't let him go from angry drunk to sad drunk completely. And so Alexander lived. Yeah.

So. Well, I mean, you can't let him throw himself on the sticky pokey because he's the emperor. Right. Yeah. If he goes like everything is fucked. Yes. So yeah. And, and, you know, while we're at it, I don't, I don't know if Livy mentions this, but like possibly Alexander's biggest dick move, which sounds like how could it be anything other than this after we just heard this story.

But like, you know, in my own opinion, as somebody who teaches this every year, his biggest dick move was as he lay dying. his generals gathered around him and they're like you know who is your heir right and with his last dying breath he just looked at him and says

the strongest yeah like wow yeah fuck you could you could you be any more of a malignant narcissist

even in your dying moments like oh my God yeah yeah so no livi doesn't mention that in this because Alexander wouldn't have gone to Rome after he died. That's true. Good point.

And then Livy also mentioned that he was boastful about his origin. And this has so many possibilities that I couldn't chase down all of them. But most of the lies about his origins are posthumous, but plenty were encouraged by Alexander himself. So here's a short list that Alexander kind of promoted. Alexander's birth cone sided with Phillips' favorite horse winning three races. A wax seal brought near his mother's belly While Alexander was in utero showed the head of a lion Zeus was his true father

Confirmed by an erythian sybil He was born on the same day as Ephesus Artemis The same day as the Ephesus Artemis temple burned down Alexander received a horn from a Stygian horned donkey Alexander harnessed two large griffins to fly And to see the world from above mermaids would ask about his health on his mom's side he was related to Achilles

and in his dad's side he was related to Heracles Big shock Heracles yeah so okay this is like all of these were things that he encouraged people to you know carry with them which William Wallace is 12 feet tall right

and again from the point of view of I want to be the guy that conquers the world. Yeah. Having people say this shit about you is, yeah, it's PR. Like, of course you're not going to stop people from from telling saying these things. Yeah, it's useful. Yeah.

You know, um, you know, if you start believing it, that could be dangerous. Um, you know. And again. him getting it in his head that, you know, maybe I am Aton Ra, you know. Right. You know, there's, there's easy to do when you're undefeated. Well, yeah. And when so many things in your life have just kind of fallen your way.

Or you've worked very hard for them. But either way, you keep getting your way. Yeah, you keep getting your way. Yeah, the combination of, you know, being born on third base. and then, you know, everything, you know, all of the events in your life being, you know, people hitting doubles and triples. Right. You know, um, yeah. Uh, I, I find, I feel the mermaids inquiring about his health is like, you know, um, that, that, that works on multiple levels at once.

Mm-hmm. and and yeah that's funny yeah um oh go on okay no go ahead okay so livy continues he says what if his love of wine had every day grown stronger and his truculent fiery and is truculent and fiery anger i mention only things which historians regard as certain can we deem such vices to be no detraction from a general's good qualities but there were forsooth the danger uh as the silliest I do love that this can translate accurately as the silliest. As the silliest of the Greeks who exalts the reputation, even of the Parthians, against the Romans,

are fond of alleging that the Roman people would have been unable to withstand the majesty of Alexander's name, though I think that they had not so much as heard of him, and that out of all the Roman nobles, not one would have dared to lift up his voice against him, although in Athens, a city crushed by the arms of Macedonia, at the very moment when men had before their eyes the wreaking ruins of the neighboring Thebes, they dared in vain against him freely as witness to the records of their speeches.

Wow. Okay. So the Greek, so he's saying that there are silly people among the Greeks who insist that, you know, the Romans would have been too cowed to put up any resistance. Yes. and he's he's calling bullshit on that because the Athenians called bullshit on Alexander

even though they saw what he did to Thebes Yeah and okay And the Romans hadn't even heard of this fucking guy Yeah yeah we didn't even like who the who Alexander who Yeah what um now do you remember when you did uh the your analysis of Mark Miller's comic turned movie 300. Yes.

Your analysis. That's a nice turn of phrase for that. Thank you. Do you remember one of the lines where it's thoroughly inaccurate? But Leonidas says, and if those boy lovers, the Athenians can stand up to you to, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, this is that. This is that all over again. Yeah. Exactly. Like even the Athenians, those prissy. Those prissy nerds. It's like, hang on. The Athenians like fought the Spartans to a pretty good route.

Like the, the Athenians and the, they were the Deelian League, I think, fought the Spartans and whatever the Spartan coalition was to basically a stalemate until. Uh-huh. plague struck Athens and rendered them unable to continue fighting. And in the wake of that, the leaders that were left made a couple of really, really bad decisions. But the Athenians, more to my point, the Athenians were able to hold off the guys who worshipped war. Oh, yeah. And they couldn't overcome the Athenians. Like everybody's sleeping on the Athenians.

It's kind of my point. Like, you know, when it, the Athenians are like the hawkye of the area. Like, just underestimate them for some reason. Like they do really cool other shit that's not war. And yet when it comes time for fighting, they seem to hold their own well enough.

Yeah, they do. They do well enough to, to maintain their position as, as a regional hegemon. Mm-hmm. I am hesitant to engage in anything that start sounding like glazing of the Athenians. Oh, I'm just saying that people,

this isn't glazing them. This is saying, yeah, okay. People are using them inappropriately as a trope of like, even these fucking guys. Oh, yeah, no, I will, I will, I will agree with that. They're acting like they were not. They're gonzo. And it's like, no, they're Fossey.

They're, they're. You know, the weird thing is you use that analogy, and I completely understand what the hell you mean. Yeah. I'm not saying they're Kermit. I'm not even saying they're Rolf, but they're fucking Fawzzy, all right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the Athenians were, they were competent enough. Yes. militarily. And when they had good leadership, they were cunning enough to hold their own. They won through, it's meaningful when you look at the Spartans were tied to Ares and Heracles. And the Athenians were tied to Athena, who what everybody, you know, everybody wants to say, well, you know,

goddess of wisdom like no no she was a war goddess yeah she was the goddess's strategy strategy aries was the god of like war mania yeah of of of frenzy and murder and you know she was a battle master he was a he was a berserker yeah he he had levels in barbarian she was all all battlemaster fighter Yeah. And the other kind of side note here is everybody wants to, you know, hold the Spartans up, you know, because of their reputation in the ancient world. If you actually look at their win loss ratio, they don't live up to their own hype. Yeah, it's kind of the opposite of France. It's the inverse of France. Like everybody's like, oh, they're a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys because I saw Simpsons once. And it's like, yeah, like the French have like a 70% win record. Yeah. You know, if you, if you look far back enough in history, they, they, they, they were in fact, the military superpower. Right. Of the Western world for several centuries.

So like, let's get some context here. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah. And Sparta is, is the reverse. And an individual Spartan warrior was a terrifying, terrifying war engine. Oh, a whole phalanx of them was, was, oh, my God. Fucking terrifying.

But strategically, they were so caught up in their own mystique that they didn't, they didn't think their way out of fights. Right. Basically. They fought their way into them. Yeah, they fought their way into losing a lot of the time. Well, and even their most famous thing was a loss. That was a loss. Yes.

Yes, it was. it was it was a defeat and it's it's interesting that it is that defeat that is the major source of their legend because of the way in which they did it which like we could analyze that to helen back uh you know hell look at that helen yeah and and you know then look at that as compared to you know bushito and and you know japan and world war two in the exaltation of the, of the, you know, samurai ethos. Sure. Because there's parallels there.

But yeah. So anyway, sorry, we're getting off the subject back to Livy and those nerdy Athenians stood up to him. He mentioned the Parthians first. So the Parthians beat Crassus and his son during the Triumvirate. And it went very badly. There were 20,000 Romans killed, 10,000 captured. The Aquila was taken as a trophy and Crassus was killed.

a lot of people say, well, I'll get to that a second. This defeat, it was called the Battle of Karhai, and it was a huge embarrassment to the Romans, and it's possible, though it's quite frankly doubtful, that the Parthians poured molten gold down Krasis's throat and then beheaded him to use his head as a prop and a play. Wow, that's fucked up. Yes.

So I think they probably beheaded. headed him and used his head as a prop into play. But if you're going to pour molten gold down his throat, then it's going to be a lot harder to behead him. Well, I mean, if you just let it all, you know, get into his stomach, it won't necessarily be that much of a problem. It's going to stay and it's going to burn and it's going to inflame and then it'll pinch.

And so you're going to have a stem of gold. But anyway, when Augustus became emperor, the Parthians sent back the Aquila with an apology. Kind of like, we kept it safe for you. So we found this in the attic and figured we probably ought to give it back to you. I don't know. I don't know how we got it. But yeah.

But now that Rome is unified under one ruler, we really don't want to have this on our hands. Right. Because that's dangerous. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So we kept it safe for you. But it was the Parthians who'd beaten the Romans.

and since Alexander had beaten the Parthians, ipso facto, obviously the Greeks thought that through the transit of property of math that they could do it, right? Clearly they never watched any kind of major league sport, but yes.

I always just think like Jedi have a really hard time against Mandalorians. Mandalorians have a really hard time against droids. Droids have no chance against Jedi. It's a rock. scissors. It's a rock paper scissors kind of situation.

Yeah. It is. Yeah. So, he also, Livy also mentions that, you know, they had not so much as heard of him. The Romans didn't know who Alexander was at the time of Alexander because they're busy with the Latin League. His legend grows after he dies. But the Romans were dealing with their own problems. And since Alexander turned right instead of left, they would have had no idea who this guy was because he wasn't.

in their orbit. Also, Livy is kind of pushing the button of we're too simple of people to worry about your celebrity culture. You know, like, I don't even watch TV. You know, he's doing that. Game of what now? Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry, Game of Thrones?

Who threw something? What? Throne what? Is this a pottery show? I'm sorry, I'm too cultured to know anything about that. Yeah. So, and then he mentions Athens, right? And this was the city that had encouraged Thebes to rebel against Alexander right after Philip died.

And when Thebes did. Let's you and him fight. Very Athenian. And when Thebes did, Alexander destroyed the living shit out of Thebes. And then they came to Athens. Or he came to Athens. But instead of cowing to Alexander's might and majesty, the Athenians sent out somebody to negotiate, despite his defeat of them. His name was Demonstanis.

Yes. Demosthenes was a famous orator at the time, and he had been on Alexander's shitless for quite some time. He hates you. Go talk to him. Yeah. And DeMostanis was like, challenge accepted, motherfucker. He convinced Alexander not to sack Athens to forgive Athens and all of this while calling Alexander boy and margites, which is the equivalent of foe. No shit.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Such a pair of stones on that guy. Yep. So. Yeah. Now, now, he was taught by testicles, obviously.

Obviously. Yes. Obviously. So the military history master's candidate in me is, is listening to this and wondering. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out whether this is before or after Alexander

had conquered tire. Oh, geez. I can look into that for you if you want. Okay. So, yeah. Because the issue,

part of what may have given Demosthenes a little bit of a boost gonad-wise is Athens held its own

to the extent that they did through the Peloponnesian War, largely because they were a naval power. Right. And if their fleet was powerful enough, it's possible that that, and Alexander was, was not a naval commander. So Tyre was three years after Thebes. Okay. Yeah.

So at this, so at this point, there's, I wonder, I now now I kind of want to try to look into this I wonder if you know there may have been some thinking on the Athenian side of the equation that like well yeah he's got this army but we have a navy that we can we can run around behind him and you know fuck up his supply lines and and you know mess with him and and whether that may have been an aspect of

the confidence that they approached it with because Alexander's biggest week was not having a naval force. Like he was entirely dependent on his land army, which is the reason that when he went into Persia, his first priority, because he knew he wasn't going to be able to deal with their fleet. And so he attacked Tyre and other states on that coast because they were Persian naval bases. So it's like, I'm going to deal with their navy by attacking him on land.

Maybe. And so, you know, that might have been part of it. But even so, being able to walk up to him and be like, all right, look, kid. Here's how this is going to go. Yeah. Like, all right. Wow. And this, you know, this is one of those knowing your audience moments, too, I think.

Yeah. Alexander wants to seem like a learned man. Hey, I was taught by Aristotle, right? Right. Or and or he did have that streak in him. That's also entirely possible, right? Okay. And also think about like the PR coup that this ends up being for Alexander is that like he just destroyed Thebes and he will enslave all of your women and children and kill all of your men.

And also he'll listen to reason. So what do you want to do? Do you want to fight him? Do you? Hmm. So. Yeah. What's going to go?

better for you, do you think? Right. Yeah. So, all right, back to Livy. However imposing the greatness of the man may appear to us, still this greatness will be that of one man only and the fruits of little more than 10 years of success. Those who magnify it for

this reason, that the Roman people, albeit never in any war, have yet suffered defeat in a number of battles, whereas Alexander's fortune was never ought but prosperous in any battle, fail to perceive that they are comparing the achievements of a man and a young man, too, with those of a people that was now in its 400th year of warfare.

Okay. Going back to the, you know, he died young, so, you know, he never had to deal with being beaten. Exactly. Okay. So, Alexander fought wars roughly from 338 to 326 BCE. he had a 12-year streak. So I love baseball. The argument of who is the best baseball player ever always comes up.

The answer is obviously Willie Mays. But the other arguments that come up are who is the best pitcher ever, right? And it's such a cool game that, like, you have not just who is the best player of all time, but who is the best this or that. And you always have to set your parameters. When you talk about best pitcher, do you mean longevity? because then it's Sy Young. There's a reason the awards named after him.

He has more than 500 wins. I think it's like 511. It's fucking crazy. Jesus. Yeah, that's 511 wins and I think like over 300 losses. Like he played 800 fucking games, right? So, you know,

and most of them completely fucking fall off. Well, I have no doubt that like he would like have to like lift it to shape people's hand later, you know? But more to the point, Sai Young, greatest ever, right? if you're talking longevity. Are you talking peak value? If you're talking peak value, then it's obviously Sandy Kofax.

Like, after them, you can argue about who has the most of this or the least of that or the best of this. But it's basically depending on which way you want to go, there you go, right? Right. Same thing here. Like Alexander had peak value. Yeah. Rome had longevity. Okay.

Yeah. And he says, you know, Libby says, have yet. suffered defeat in a number of battles. As of the writing of this book by Livy, the Romans had lost roughly 31 battles, and none of that counts the Civil Wars because how could you count that as a loss and also a victory, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, that's roughly 31 out of about 120 or 130 major battles, depending how you cut it. That's a pretty good batting average. Yeah. Now, as of the time of Alexander's death, the Romans had lost three times out of seven major campaigns. that's not as great a batting average but still better than 500.

Your odds of winning as Rome are about the same as your odds of being convicted of corruption as a governor of Illinois. It's like four out of the last eight actually. For a while it's four out of last seven. Yeah. Yeah, I got in. But anyway, so three out of seven is what they're. So Libby's point is not that a hot streak isn't a hot streak, but it's how do you come back from a loss? Yeah.

Well, and also, how do you come back from a loss? Like, we can look at the career of Chuck Liddell, a MMA fighter, destroyed everybody until he got knocked out. And he never came back fully from that. He had a very spotty record thereafter to the point where he was made to retire. I'm trying to remember who was it who caoed him Rampage Jackson the first time and then Rashad Evans

and then I think Jardine like several people started knocking him out or maybe yeah I think it was Rampage then Rashad but it might have been

the other way around anyway he started losing a lot right and so and that's the thing peak value compared to how do you come back

and compared to longevity right okay back to Livy should it occasion a surprise if seeing that upon the one side are counted more generations than our years upon the other fortune should have varied more in that long time than in a life of 13 years? Why not compare a man's fortune with a man's and a generals with the generals? How many Roman generals could I name who never suffered a reverse in battle? In our annals and our lists of magistrates, you may run through the page.

of consoles and dictators of whom it never on any day repented the Roman people, whether of their generalship or their fortune. Okay. So in other words, we, we have plenty of guys who never got beat, too. Yeah. And I love the, we have more years, we have more generations than he has years. Yeah, that's a pretty sick burn. Yeah.

That's, that's a pretty telling, telling point. Like, yeah. Wow. So he talks about in our annals and lists of magistrates, right? And honestly, I did a ton of research here. It is impossible that measure this accurately at all. But Livy could easily be cooking the books. There were plenty of won and done leaders.

So sometimes you can stretch a battle into a campaign that he won. And therefore, you could ignore the early loss in a battle because he won the campaign. So are we counting that, you know? Like, are we counting all? all the innings or are we counting, you know, just the end game? Are we counting all the rounds or are we counting the, the CO in the fifth round, you know? So it's like that sort of thing. The Romans were excellent marshaly and it stands to reason with nearly 75% win rate,

depending on how deep down you want to plumb into the fighting history. There's going to be plenty of guys who rotate off the bench and come back out of the game with zero turnovers. Yeah, makes sense. A dictator gets, you know, like, can you. Notus. There you go. Done. Right. Sorry. Sorry. I just realized why you were laughing. I've just grown up hearing at Cincinnati. And every time you say in the classic Latin, I'm like, I picture him just wearing a pair of like thigh high, high heeled boots, right? You know, when I have my lorica musculata. Sure. And the Tarugi is hanging down in just a pair of black like patent leather thigh high high high. subjugula at all. Yeah, like, yeah, just, yeah. Kinky, kinkinatus.

My students used to translate part of Caesar's de Bello Gallico. Right. Oh, and prior to that, they actually translated part of Caesar's Debello, Kiwiliis, right? Civil Wars. Which I loved having them do that first and then

do the Bello Gallico, because I'm like, and now you can see where he started this shit. But there was This asshole. There was a wonderful spot where it talks about how, oh God, I forget what the battle was now. It starts with a P, I think.

But it's one of the battles that he had with Pompey where he just routes him and like takes over his camp and shit. And it talks about how they put both, they both deployed their soldiers, right? But I didn't let the students use the word to deploy because I wanted them to understand that this was actually putting pieces into place. So while you could render it as deploy and it would be fully accurate to get a real sense for the fact that this was a gamesmanship thing, translated as put his men into place. The kids would be typing shit out and invariably there would be a typo from time to time. And one kid said that Caesar put his men into lace. Oh, boy. That's too good.

Oh, it's so good. That's too good. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, but, but Kinkanatus as, as example of one and done. Sure, you know, although I think he does come back later several times, actually. But, you know, and I think he ends up exiled because Rome loves that kind of weird hero story. Anyway, yes, you could have guys rotate off the bench and then come out of the game, no turnovers. And like, oh my God, that's, you know, well done, right?

Okay, so back to Livy. and what makes them more wonderful than Alexander or any king is this. Some were dictators of ten or twenty days, and none held the consulship above a year. Their levies were obstructed by the tribunes of the plebs. They were late and going to war, and were called back early to conduct elections. In the midst of their undertakings, the year ruled round. And now the rashness, the forwardness of a colleague occasioned them losses or difficulties. They succeeded to affairs which others had mismanaged.

They received an army from raw recruits or one badly disciplined. Now consider kings. Not only are they free from all the impediments, but they are the lords of time and circumstance. And in their councils carry all things with them instead of following in their train. So in other words, he had this, he had the advantage of being a king. Yes. And having, having shit go the way he wanted it to go where our general, and our commanders, in addition to kicking ass on the battlefield,

had to deal with all of these, you know, democratic political, small-de-democratic political issues that, you know, cause them trouble. And they had to fight back after, you know, somebody else had fucked up. And, you know, so we, we accomplished everything. We accomplished with, you know, lead weights on our ankles. Mm-hmm.

Where, you know, he was entirely unfettered. And we appreciate those lead weights on our ankles, because we're not going to let a dictator take us over. Right. So he's just like, no, of course. The led weights are our virtue. Yes. That's our honor.

Yes. Right there. Yeah. So yeah, cool. He won a bunch. We've been around for, yeah. We've been around for 400 years. We'll continue to win even after we lose because that's what democracies do.

Right. Or republics. Republics do. Yeah. So he talked about some were dictators of 10 or 20 days. This is the shit that I'm talking about. Like until Sulla, the role of dictator was never more than six months at a time. Sulla held the position for three years before retiring.

And then again with Caesar, who was the last dictator called the dictator Perpetus. You can figure out what that means. Yeah. I think I counted a total of 76 dictators in Rome's history. And yeah, some of them did rule for a few. very short period of time. Kinkinatus, Sinanatus, famous for doing so,

served for 15 days the first time, and 21 days the second time. That was it. And by the way, your boy, Cincinnati, hated the plebeians and wanted them to have no protection under the law at all. Oh.

Wow. He strikes me as a patent, quite honestly. Yeah, it sounds like it, yeah. Yeah. And then he mentioned how none held the consulship above a year. And while technically this was true, I think he's cooking the books here. Yeah.

I found tons of guys who were elected to consecutive years, despite that not being the norm. There were different terms that they served, right? I served this year and then I served this year. But there was a need for a law at one point to forbid anyone from serving within 10 years of his most recent term as console. and even that ends up getting broken a whole fuck ton of times by senatorial decree of exception for several guys and I get it like you know it's kind of like you know FDR ran a third time and that shit was unprecedented

well yeah it was precedented but he ran for a third consecutive time his cousin ran for a third time non-consecutive right and in fairness didn't run the first term just came into office the first term because the guy got shot. But, like, you know, everybody's like, oh, my God, you can't do that. And then they all voted overwhelmingly for him, right? Yeah.

There were also a few times where Rome was run by a Decombeiri, not just two consoles, but like 10 dudes. And several of them had rollover terms. Only eight ever did it on their own. And if you leave out the repeat of the Deck and Weirry, we only have two. two in a row once with a gap year, and that's because there was a year where no consuls were in charge between those two years. So, Livy, so there was one guy who went two years out of three with no interrupts, and then we get to Marius and Sulla, and that kind of breaks it all. And Rome was very, very conscientious about letting guys gather power to themselves

over multiple years of being console. So as much as they worked to try to prevent it, it wasn't something that was foolproof or universal. No. And even in the era of the Republic. Right. And it was one of those we made it legal. Like it's illegal to do that, except we passed a law saying it's legal to do it this time. Yeah.

Which I do appreciate on some levels because you're like, okay, but that sets a precedent. if we're going to do this, we all have to agree to do this. Right. So this is this is something that can happen, but there is a procedure. Right. That has to happen. And there has to be consensus. Yes.

You know, you, you, you as the ambitious senator or whatever, cannot just arrogate this to yourself and get away with it. You have to get the support of enough people. Yes. You have to manipulate all of us. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So.

And then he talks about their levies were obstructed by the Tribune of the Plebs. Remember, as a concession to the Plebs so that they'd stop leaving Rome and forcing rich people to do their own work. So they'd stop going on strike. Right. Yeah. The Roman senators created the role of the Tribune of the Plebs. This was in 493 BCE. Right.

That's less than 20 years after the Republic had started. Yeah. That rot was fucking deep. Well, yeah. I love telling my kids about the tribunes, the tribunes of the plebs. Yes. Because what I, what I wrestle with trying to get them to understand was that the whole, or at least the way, the way I present it. And hopefully I'm not too far off the mark.

But the whole, the whole power of the Tribune was if you fucked with a Tribune, yeah. Every Pleb in, in line of sight was, was required to intervene. Yeah. To fuck you up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was, it was if you had on a Tribune, the entire population around like 90% of the people

around you or more, depending on where you. are in Rome is going to fall on you with rocks and sticks and whatever they've got to hand. And you're not going to walk away from it. No. So, like, this is the ultimate expression of this person embodies the people. And if you fuck with them, the people are going to kill you. Yeah. No, they are, their body is literally sacrosanct, right?

Yeah. And not only that, but they get the veto, right? Right. So, yeah. So the first tribunes of the plebs were Lucius Arbinius paterculus and Gaius Likinius. These tribunes then appointed others. And then for a while, the election of the tribunes of the plebs was done by the Senate, which... Interesting kind of separation of powers thing going on there.

Well, just keeping power out of the hands of the plebs, right? Yeah. But the Senate had to elect plebeians to be the tribune. So in other words, we're going to make you a junior partner, Johnny. Now, having said that, I must remind you that the Senate was created by Romulus. He picked a hundred guys out of all the fuckers that came to Rome going like, yeah, no, I could move in here. And like, he basically put out the word like, hey, have you been exiled? Are you a criminal on the run?

Are you a generally shitty person that no one else wants in their city? Come on down to Rome. down to Rome. Yeah. And he picked, you know. The hundred best of them. Best of that. Yeah.

And Livy himself says whether he picked a hundred good men or just the best he could find. So whether he had a goal of a hundred or like. And that was it. Oh, that's. Oh, my God. Even Livy. Yeah. Especially Livy.

You know what? This just solidified. my determination going forward when I teach Rome everybody I talk about in Rome when I when I have them saying anything they're going to sound like this

like Father you know you know you know you want to come down here and you want to try to institute some kind of Etruscan kingship we're not no we're not going to have that. No. We don't have any kings here. Like, you know, yeah, it turns into Father Guido, but I'm trying to be from Wisconsin. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to, I'm trying to be,

uh, uh, New York bum. Uh, oh, you know, yeah, I got, I got, I got way off when I started doing that, but yeah, I can't, I can't do a good Jersey accent, but like if I'll need to, I'll need to try to figure out how to do my best. Oh, just find online dialogue shit and just. Yeah, I know. That's what I've been doing. I listen to like three hours of Hondo Anaka talking so that I could get my rogues voice down. Oh, there you go.

Yeah. Oh, I'll just. Ah, okay. Yeah. I'll have to do my best, you know, try to figure out how to do a good Tony Soprano. Yeah. Impersonation for it. Like, because, wow.

Yeah, you're a senator. Yeah. Why the pinky rings? Why? Why? Well, and again, I just, I really like to point out, nobody in the Senate was ever elected senator. They were appointed by Romulus, and then they were appointed by Anka. He decided to expand it by another hundred. So by the fourth king, there were 200 senators, none of whom were elected by the people. So when you look back at like, elected by the people.

Right. Well, but when you look back at the first article of the United States Constitution, there's a Senate and there is a House of Representatives. And the Senate was not to be directly elected by the people. It was to be elected by the state legislatures. That didn't change until 1916 or 13. I always mix up the income tax one and the direct election one. So it was either 1913. Direct election is I think I think direct election is 13.

Okay. And income tax is 16 because income tax I remember being in the middle of the war, even though we weren't in the war yet. Yeah. So I could be wrong, but that's the way I remember it. Okay. So the idea of a senator was not to be elected by the people. And so then you go all the way forward to, you know, the Republic and the Senate. and the senators are still not elected by the people.

Never meant to be. No. Yeah. And so when they come up with a... They're a check on the people. Right. Like, they're listed first. It's Senatus Populus que Roma, right?

Yes. The Senate and the people of Rome. But also, the guy that they, they're like, okay, okay, you guys can have a tribunal of the plebs. He can have all these cool powers. We'll choose him. Which... again you go back to the Roman kings and it was after Romulus died it was like okay we've got

this anoregne we'll have a Sabine then we'll have a Roman then we'll have a Sabine then we'll have a Sabine then we'll have a Roman and it's like every fucking day and this just didn't work so they're like look look look look look the Romans will choose the king but he will be a Sabine that's how they ended up with Characan Kings yeah so they they were appointed by the Senate. They were elected by the Senate, and they were plebeians. And obviously, you can see the problem with that. So in 471 BCE, the election of the PLEBs was moved from the Comitia Curiata to the Comitia Tributa, taking the patres out of the election officially. This means that the election of the Tribune of the Plebs was now done by the Comitia Curia. I'm sorry.

No, it was done now by the Comitia Tributa. Which is to say what we in English, when we teach this, refer to as the Assembly? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Now, the tribunes were sacrosanct, like we said. Nobody could fucking touch them. So they could vote the people's will without any fear of reprisal.

And their veto was total. Now, most tribunes didn't blanket veto. They would just veto specific legislation. But when Tiberius Gracus was tribune, he vetoed. the whole fucking government. The trick is, though, you have to be in Rome to use your veto, at least until Sulla was in charge. Right. But plenty of consoles would want to do things, and then they would be vetoed by a tribune because they weren't allowed to do to the checks and balances that Rome had in place.

Alexander had no such checks and balances. Now, Livy also mentioned that there were plenty who were called back early to conduct elections. A really good example of this is during the Third Sam Night War. Flama was recalled mid-campaign because he had to run the election. Not because he was up for reelection, but because he had to oversee a different... Hey, we know you're fighting, but deadlines, bro. Yeah, can you, can you put a pin in that? This shit stops for no man.

Let's go. Yeah, no, no, no. Chop, job. You have a duty to Rome. It's like, I'm killing the enemies of Rome right now. You have a duty, sir. We have a bureaucracy to run. You know, and we ought to try to come up with a side hustle doing videos or something with, like,

like describing these things happening or audio dramas because the voice you just used is so perfect we have we have a government to run

yeah okay you know yeah yeah no I understand covering yourself in glory yeah fighting off the enemies whatever

no no no there is legislation that needs to be done sir there's an abutment issue yeah and

I'm I'm trying to stop these people from storming the gates. It doesn't matter if the gates haven't been resealed, and we need to determine how strong that wax needs to be. So get your ass home, sir. It's not my fault you decided to be on that select committee, is it? Yeah. It's like the opposite of Teddy Roosevelt who, like, quit the government to go play soldier.

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's funny. So Maximus and Moose were elected consul that year. And Maximos came down to take over what Flama had started. So, like, again, it, you know, you could be like, oh, look at how great Alexander was.

Like, Alexander never had to, like, start where somebody else stopped because, you know, the ombudsman was needed to talk about whatever. Like, just. Alexander never had to attend to town council meeting, right? Look. He didn't have to deal with wagon widths, okay? Like, and now, and now I'm picturing Ron Swanson. Sure. Just, just with that, with that great look that, and I'm forgetting the actor's name, but that, that amazing, just, I want you all to shut the fuck up, look on his face.

Right. Just leading into the microphone, I am, I should be fighting the enemy. of Rome and you have me here for this. Yeah. Just. And just have somebody who like absolutely does not brook any of that

bullshit and just like, oh, that's right. That's exactly right. You signed up for this. Like there was actually a character in the Legacy of the Jedi series. It was, no, I'm sorry, it wasn't Legacy of the Jedi series. It was the next series.

The one where Luke ends up going on the Odyssey. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God, I'm going to look at it real quick. The Fate of the Jedi series. Okay. And there's a guy in there who he is just like the most officious little functionary. And like you've got Wookieing in his face. He's like, I don't care what you call me or what you're going to do with my arms.

You still have to do your form 332C if you want to get this on the Senate floor. and they're like just completely disarmed by the fact that he's unflappably bureaucratic. He's such an institutionalist that he just does not care. No. He is the institution. Like it's so cool. He's such a fun character. And I have the book series on audio and the guy does such a great, officious little.

like he kind of talks a little bit like this you know kind of somebody you'd expect to be called point dexter yeah and he just like and he does not give a shit no he talks down Luke like just like no you you think that you have the right because you have some mystical energy force and that's all well and good but we're trying to run a government here and and like he convinces Luke

and Luke respects him and just like oh my god people like try to murder him he's like you might murder me but you might murder me but you're still not going to get through that door because you need to fill out this. And it's just like, holy shit. Because you need to fill out this. Yeah, the faith in the process.

I swear there was a line in there somewhere of like, this would require a report. And that was good because he liked reports or something like that. It was so good. Oh, no, I'm blending him with another character actually. Oh, okay. But still. Yeah.

It fits. Yeah. Yes. So, okay, it's important to recognize that there were often campaign seasons, too. So if the troops had not yet secured victory by the end of campaign season, they'd be in winter quarters and a new console would come and take over, right? Yeah. So a lot of things shifting. So who do you, you know, in baseball, you have a way of recording who gets the save and who gets the victory, right?

Right. It's a little messier. Honestly, like win-loss records in Rome are kind of similar to graduation rates in a school district. Let's say that I start as a freshman in your school. Right. Get straight Fs. Move over to another school. Get straight Fs.

Move over to a third school. Get my shit together and actually get done. Who gets the credit for me graduating? You see the problem? Yeah. Same thing here. Like, who gets the credit? Like, he left them in winter quarters, but my God, they were set to win.

Or he left them in winter quarters, and boy, were they fucked. Thank God, winter came early. Yeah. So, and then he says, Livy says, you know, now consider kings. Not only are they free from all impediments. Obviously, no democracy. There's no need to replace officials. And, Sazel Alexander would switch guys around willy-nilly at drunken frat parties,

stabbing whoever objected. Livy is pointing out that the Romans didn't need a great man to lead them. they had a great system. Yeah. Yeah. And I would, I would argue that having that system provided a safeguard against a king. Against kings. Deciding, deciding, well, when we're just talking about on the military level, that system meant that, you know, there was no chance of the,

the, you know, one guy making all the decisions getting drunk and, you know, murdering one of his generals. Yep. You know, in a drunken fight or just deciding he's going to rearrange everything just on whim. You know, there is, there is freedom from having somebody jogging your sword arm when you're a king. Yes.

But there is a level of stability. of policy yeah bureaucracy will say bureaucracy when when no one man can just

you know up end the apple cart yeah on a whim yeah you know at the end of the day the Romans

were pathologically mediocre militantly mediocre militantly mediocre yes quite so yeah okay and

and And it was because of their fear of being ruled by a king again. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes 100% sense. And what I love is that Rome lasted for, again, they're never the good guys. So I don't want you ever think that I'm a Rome stand. But they did last for a thousand years being painfully mediocre. The Biftonan of world empires.

Yeah, yeah. And man, fuck, if you can live for a, thousand years being mediocre. Why would you ever want to excel? Like, it's just, it is better to fade away than it is to burn out, okay? Yeah, yeah.

Neil Young got it wrong. I'm trying to remember, I'm trying to remember what the, what the line was, but, you know, eagles may sore, but a weasel will never get sucked into a jet engine. What is that from? Oh, my dude. I want to say it's an independent, comic about some group of, you know, mutant weasel.

Oh my God. It's beautiful. Or something. But, yeah. Eagles may soar, but a weal will never get sucked into a jet engine. God damn. Oh. Man, I always just said like, hey, if you start low, you don't fall far.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Oh. All right. So back to Livy. Right. So then an undefeated Alexander would have warred against undefeated generals and would have brought the same pledges of fortune to the crisis. Nay, he would have run a greater risk than they inasmuch as the Macedonians would have had but a single Alexander, not only exposed to many dangers, but incurring them voluntarily, while there would have been many Romans a match for Alexander, whether for glory or for the greatness of their deeds, of whom each several one would have lived in.

died as his own fate commanded without endangering the state. Okay. So, you know, Macedonia was betting on Alexander and they got lucky, or not lucky. They won 20 times in a row, which is fucking insane. Right. But they did.

And Rome was like, yeah, you could do that. We're going to do it 400 times. Or we're going to do it 137 times. Right. And we won 71 of those. Pretty good. 71 is more than triple 20. Yes.

So, yes, that is true. Um, I, I do find it entertaining. Mm-hmm. That he continually keeps talking about, you know, the number of Roman commanders who were the equal of Alexander. Mm-hmm. In the way, in the way that he, that he, that he phrases. things. Yeah.

When like prior to Livy engaging in this alt-fick, you know, Alexander had been held up by other Romans as this pinnacle figure. And so there's there's this kind of, I'm. I'm being I'm somehow being more reasonable or I'm somehow being smarter because I'm going against the dominant narrative if that makes sense.

Yeah. I just, I find that, I find that interesting. Well, dig into that because we're going to stop here. So this can dovetail nicely into what you've gleaned. So please expand upon that. Okay, well, there is this thing that happens over and over and over with historians or people in the sciences in STEM or whatever, where they get this idea that because what they are saying is somehow a departure from or contrary to the dominant position, the consensus position, right?

is that somehow because they are because they are going against the consensus position they are smarter or better informed or like you know my point is better or more nuanced or whatever right you know I have friends who do this all the time if you mention a struggle that you've got with something they always take that person's side like well have you considered this

is like yes thanks Can you can you can you fuck off with it? Right. Yeah or or like I had a I had a professor who I really hope doesn't wind up overseeing my capstone project for my masters but he he he had a very clear idea in his own head that because he was espouseouseouse. a particular set of ideas about the Cold War, he was smarter than the consensus opinion about the Cold War. And there were other things he was smarter than the consensus about up to and including he at one point told us all that, well, you know, scholars have confirmed that, you know, Hitler made it to Argentina and lived there for several years after the war. just look into it. You can see this to da da da da da. In this tone like, you know, I'm telling you what they won't.

And like there is there is something of that. I mean, obviously it's not to that same extent, but there is something of that that I get in, in what Livy is doing here. Okay. In Livy's case, I don't think he's even necessarily wrong. like the case that has been put forward here does kind of point

in a direction that okay I can see how yeah the Romans would have given Alexander a much a much harder run than people might assume and I can

I can buy that and I no longer just want to dismiss Livy out of hand but I do kind of get a little bit of that superiority

well I think that's just the Roman superiority. Like he's straight up advocating. Like everybody thinks Alexander's such hot shit and he was great. Rome's greater. Nah, I'd win. Yeah.

As the memes go nowadays. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I get that. So, I mean, that's part of what I'm kind of getting off of this. The other thing,

as far as what I glean, what I find, Really interesting is the way that this whole narrative of Livy's is being used by Livy as a mirror for the prior events in Rome for the end of the last Civil War. and the level of resonance, I think is the word I'm going to use for it. Okay. Just as a, like this whole thing feels like a digression because it is a digression. But to some extent it is a rhetorical device. Yeah.

within within the rest of what he's doing. And that's the, the sophistication of that is really remarkable. Because it, I think, speaks to the extent to which this history was being written as a political thing. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I just, I've, I've been so enmeshed in him that I've, I, I, I forget what it's like to not, this is going to sound so snobby. I forget what it's like to not know him as well as I do. Yeah.

And like his personality and, yeah, yeah. And stuff like that, that like to see that, that being what you wafted from it. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Yes. And it's one of those like, yeah, I agree with you. And here's 14 other things as to why, but also branches laterally. Yeah.

But yeah. Yeah. Again, I think that in, you know, he's writing at the time of Augustus. He's writing for an audience of people who are going to be loyalists to Augustus and who are going to be anti-orientalists. Yeah, very strongly. Yeah. And he's also, you know, he, he grew up again, I got to go back to like, so yes, I agree with you, but I agree with you for different and I'm going to say better reasons. Okay, fair.

Yeah. But. I'm not the expert here. Yeah. In that he grew up in the shadow of the Caesarian Civil War. Right. And seeing like a man who appealed to the people being popular, bugs the show. shit out of him because he loves Rome, not the Romans.

Right. And he sees Alexander as being that same kind of populace. Like if you look at his critiques of him, it's that he adopts the will of the people and he does all these things. So I do think, yes, you're right as far as the politics go. But I think the politics, would you, what have you said with Brennan Lee Mulligan, personality precedes ideology? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. personality precedes politics that's what it is I think same things here I think yeah the reason he's making the political arguments that he's making by this rhetoric is because of what he saw growing up and what scared him okay that makes sense yeah okay and what I so so the other thing and and this is the like the final final thing sure that that strikes me is he's talking with such adoration of the Republic. Yes. Oh, God, yeah.

Oh, he's a in service of. Of the empire. Augustus. But remember Augustus. And the Imperium. Is going to make Rome great again. Yeah. And so we know that that never, you know, has deleterious effects for

anybody in a civilization. But he will, so with his thing about Augustus, though, is that Gus is the one most likely to bring back the Pompeian ideal that he sided with. He sees Augustus as the rejoinder to Caesar, not the continuation of Caesar. And in many ways, it makes sense. Caesar made himself dictator perpetuos, and he, like, you know, was doing all these things that violated all the customs. But Augustus immediately made sure that he put the law on his side.

Everything he did had like legal framework to it. Now, to me, that's just a thin skin that you pull over your shit to legitimize it. But to Livy, that made a big difference. Yeah. So because. Yeah. Because in Livy's, if I understand it clearly, in Livy's view, it was the violation of the legal norms. Yes.

That made what Caesar did illegitimate. So the fact that Augustus is going back to legal norms, you know. Yeah. And it's one of those maybe he is going to do like Caesar's doing, but at least he's doing it in a way that, you know, is, if he's, if he's, if. If he's not 100% for a republic, he's at least he's a Republican-style dictator, you know? Right. Okay. So the reason he's in charge is because he legally has these things.

At least he went through the fucking process. You know, it's like that kind of thing. Yeah. So. And I think that that's especially, that part right there is especially going to come out at the end of this next chapter for you. So. Okay. All right.

Well, what do you want people to consume? I'm going to very strongly recommend everybody go out and find yourself either on streaming or on YouTube wherever you can find it find yourself the original not not the sequel or the other sequel um the Blues Brothers the original John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd film um number one because it's an amazing amazing piece of comedy with some really great musical performances

in the middle of it. It is John Belushi at the height of his powers. And I'm going to be talking about it in coming episodes. Very nice. So yeah, that's

my recommendation for this episode. What have you got? What are you? want to recommend to folks. I am going to recommend that folks go and find a copy of a book called Burn Them Out by Patrick Ogreik. I know I'm mispronouncing his name. Last name is R-U-A-I-R-C.

So. Okay. Irish, sounds like. Yes, okay. And it's a history of fascism. the far right in Ireland. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

So I'm going to tell people to go give that a read, something that we should probably look at. Yeah. So cool. Where can we be found? We collectively can be found on our website at wababwabwabwabwab. Dot geekhistorytime.com. On that website, you can find our archive where we have now 300 change, I think, episodes. And so you can look through that, find any number of topics to catch your interest.

And we can also, of course, be found on the Apple podcast app, on the Android podcast app and on, sorry, on Amazon's podcast app. There you go. And on Spotify. And wherever it is that you have found us, please take a moment to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know we deserve. And how about you, sir? Where can you be found? Well, let's see. This may have hit the May 1st show, may not.

So I'm going to say May 1st, June 5th and July 3rd. Capital Punishment in downtown Sacramento, the comedy spot at 9 p.m. on the first Friday of every month, those dates that I just listed, come see me and Justine and Emily and a whole gaggle of people making puns for your entertainment. Bring $15, get your tickets. It's better yet, get your tickets online.

Satcommodyspot.com, go to the calendar section, find our show. And come on out, check us out as we spin that wheel, and we pun, battle, and win. So for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock, and until next time, keep rolling 20s.