A Geek History of Time - Episode 369 - The Hero's Journey Trope Part II

Episode Date: May 15, 2026

I mean, it is 2 o'clock in the fucking morning where I am. The 1848ers were so much more radical than what we're comfortable or familiar with. The layer, the layer of sarcasm involved in that entire delivery is, it's fonded. It's not even frosting. But he failed, so fuck them, buddies. Now, after World War II ended, Lockley started mapping out foot trails for the newly created. Oh, God, Pembroke Shire. So Pembrokeshire.

Pembrokeshire. Okay. Pembrokeshire. Just please let me just read Latin today. We're way into the 19th century now. I'm sorry. Well, Damien. It's 3 o'clock in the fucking morning.

This is a geek history of time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Laylock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. And earlier today, my wife went off. to do a craft class and that left me and my son to kind of fend for ourselves and we wound up he got on his bike and we wound up going to the park with him riding and me walking behind him and two things happened today that I don't know it's it's that you know I'm really happy to see this happening and it's kind of bittersweet kind of kind of kind of a thing. So he got on his bike and he was riding ahead of me on his bike and he's got his, you know, dinosaur bike helmet. And I'm watching him and I'm like, oh my God, it's been a while

since he's been on it. And I'm watching him pedaling and I'm like, oh, my God, his knees are coming almost all the way up to his chest. So I had him stop and I went and I said, get off for a second. and I adjusted, I had to adjust his bike seat upward pretty far and, you know, clamped it back down and got back on it. He said, oh, yeah, this is a lot easier. I'm like, yeah, I can believe how it would be. And so that was the moment of like, oh, my God, my kid is growing like a weed. And then we got to the park and there's a particular playground at the park near our house that he really likes. And one of the features of that playground is a climbing wall with handhold.

And he, until today, had not been tall enough to really use the climbing wall because there were a couple of places where the hand and footholds are kind of have been too far apart for him. And today he decided he wanted to give it another try. So we went over there and again, it's been a while since we've been to the park. And he went over there and today was the day he conquered it. He was able to climb up and it's it's got kind of a horseshoe shape to it. There's this like a metal, metal plate kind of structure with the handholds on it that has kind of a curve to it. And so he was actually able to climb all the way up over the curve and back down the other side and climb down. and you know this this is a big moment you know he's he's he's conquered it for the first time

and as soon as he got done with it he said I could do it faster next time and so he went he went back around to the start and he said he said take take video of me take a video of me okay so I took a video of him doing it and he got done and I'm kind of following him you know with my phone you know as he goes through it and he got gets down and he turns and he looks at me and the camera and and this kid strikes a pose. He like puts his arm out and he like puts one one fist on his hip and he leans on the climbing structure. You know, because, you know, he's got to be Mr. Cool. And so I finished taking that video.

And it was a few minutes after that he got, he got tired and wanted to head home. but like he's he's not a little little kid anymore and it's wonderful and it's also it's also bittersweet because it's only a little bit longer until you know i'm going to have to be talking to him about romance stuff whether it's with boys or girls one way or the other and and then kind of funny funnier kind of thing this evening his grandmother my mother called and talking with his mom there was something there was something that my wife said that Robert you know wanted wanted to give her a hug about and he gets out of his chair

and goes to bring it in I'm like, who are you? So, yeah, my son is a source of joy in light and also kind of breaks little pieces off of my heart every day as he's getting older. So that's what I have to share. What about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a U.S. history and government teacher up here in Northern California. at the high school level.

And I also have a bit of a story about my son between shows recordings. I walked downstairs and he was watching something. And it was not trains and it was not D.C. stuff or, you know, because he's getting in D.C. lately and it was not, you know, just internet dare, friends daring each other slop because it's, you know, what he digs. Yeah. In fact, it was. and I looked and it was like you know natural or videos of

natures and stuff and I was like oh what are you watching and he said these are the last pictures of now extinct species and I'm like I'm wondering what got him from X to Y to Z to Z yeah yeah also I'm like oh fuck you're turning into your dad

like this desire to bear witness to sad shit so I was like depressing shit Yeah. So then I asked him a little bit later. I'm like, which one did you find the most interesting? And of course, it was a Tasmanian tiger. Everybody seems to find that one the most interesting. Yeah.

And so we talked about that for a while. And so it was just, it was kind of cool. Like, just there's an extended consciousness that he, I mean, he's always loved animals and stuff like that. But like, yeah, yeah, looking at this aspect of it. I was like, all right, cool. Good for you, man. Cool. Yeah. All right. So when last we spoke, we were right up to the edge of the threshold. threshold. Yes. And we'd found that Neo had crossed the threshold once he started walking the path of the yellow brick road and got on the train with Catnus.

Right. Right. And actually, I will, I will pause here because I have to ask you a question that may pertain to the rest of this episode. Okay. You get to answer it in confidence. So everybody, you get to wonder. all right so now that i've just you know kind of established some norms i hear my move that we cease to talk about a character we can't name by an author we can't stand and instead we actually um replace that with catnus everdeen uh from the the the hunger games yeah yeah i've seen the movie enough that i could just go from that text yeah and i've i've read the book uh i will and I will admit to our audience, you all,

lovely people, just as I did to to Damien. Well, you are. Yeah, you know what you did. But the majority of you. And I will admit to all of you, whether lovely or not,

just what I admitted to Damien, which is the whole reason that I haven't been the one bringing up Katness Everdeen is because I don't have, have the level of familiarity with that text that I had with the other one. And so I think what we'll just do is when we're looking for an example other than Luke Skywalker or Gawain of Orkney, you can you can bring up every time Katness occurs to you, since you have it better in your brain box.

Yeah, sure. and and we can we can go that way and we just don't have to mention the little Englishman again at all written by the unmentionable you're written yeah by by truly an awful individual yeah so yeah um so we're talking about crossing the threshold right and we we kind of like we ventured into talking about luke crossing the threshold in the last episode and I think there is like Campbell would have argued, and I think Lucas's intention, would have been for the threshold to be the departure from Tatouine. Okay. I think based on kind of the way the beats fit together in the script, I think Lucas was, like Campbell being very explicit about crossing the threshold, being a physical thing. Yeah, take you out of the place thing. Yeah.

And I think what you pointed out in the last episode is really important on a psychological and a meta-narrative level that it is the death of Owen and Baru that untethers him, which was a great way for you to describe it. And I'm stealing it again. Yeah. But it is the death of Owen and Buru that untethers him and frees him to cross the threshold. Yeah. But I think for Campbell and for Lucas being a disciple of Campbell, I think the physical stepping onto the Millennium Falcon and leaving atmosphere is that moment in the story.

because it's after he gets aboard the Millennium Falcon and after they've escaped from Tatouin that he begins his hour and a half long instruction in the ways of the Jedi he gets the duolingo lessons of being a Jedi and he's like I'm a Jedi now Harley Vu

yeah Come on. I don't get points for that pun. You totally do. Okay. You totally. Yeah. You,

yes. Yeah. Marking it. That counts. And that one I'm not even mad about. Like, I'm, I'm there.

I use a fencing term. Yeah. I spoke French. Yeah. So, so, but it, because of,

because of the way we see that develop. Mm-hmm. You know, we have, and, And what's interesting about the way Lucas chose to follow the arc is that before he crosses the threshold. Right. And I talked at the end of the last episode about how in a lot of these stories, there's this weird liminal time in the narratives of these stories where the hero has been exposed to the supernatural world.

And they wind up kind of in this limbo where like the wider or supernatural, supernal, whatever you want to call it, world is acting on them in some way or they are interacting with agents of it in some way. But they haven't quite completely crossed the threshold yet. And so in a new hope, we have, you know, they are, they are. trying to escape the suddenly everywhere agents of the empire. Right. And part of that involves this is where they meet the trickster. Okay. Or also in Campbell's terms, he referred to the characters the shapeshifter.

Okay. And it is a figure who is necessary. The hero needs them for something. They need their assistance, but they're not really trustworthy. and and they may, depending on the story, they may wind up being, they may wind up being somebody who, who causes problems for the hero,

but the hero needs them. And Han Solo fits this bill. He is this clearly morally ambiguous, quasi-legal, he is this agent. out of the outer world, right? He's part of that bigger world. And in a way, he kind of fulfills a role as a psycho pomp. I mean, in Star Wars, quite literally.

Yeah, quite literally. Yeah. And he winds up, I mean, over the course of the trilogy, he winds up becoming an ally. Over the course of the first movie, he winds up having, I wouldn't say a heel-face turn, but a sketch ass face turn. Like he's never really a heel,

but he's not trustworthy, but then in the end he, you know, finds his nobility of purpose or whatever, you know, and comes back to save the day. And so we meet him and we meet him

before we've crossed the threshold because in the case of Luke Skywalker, he needs his shapeshifter in order to cross the threshold. if that makes sense. Because again, because again, in Lucas's interpretation of Campbell,

it's a physical threshold. It's a physical journey. Okay. So, I think that's why I stuck with, um, the murder of his aunt and uncle is the threshold. Because then he meets the allies.

And so the physical movement is, is, is less relevant. Um, than is the relational elements. Yeah, and that's, again, one of the things that makes this

a useful tool. Sure. Is that it is something that we, that you can have this discussion about. Yeah. And the, the manner in which you choose to define parts of it

is can be viewed as a strength of this as a paradigm and it can also be pointed to as like a major flaw right here's where it breaks down in Campbell's thesis yeah so I will say with Katness um the refusal for the so the call to uh the adventure obviously is her sister is is chosen she's like no take me so that's that's the call the refusal of the call I think ultimately is her sister screaming no a bunch of times. Like basically the refusal is by proxy

for Katnaz. And I think in the movie, Gail has to drag the sister away. Now, Gail is her tether to the mundane world. That's the man that she felt the most connection to. Yeah. And then she meets the mentor.

And they call the adventure involves the reaping ceremony as well. Yeah. Ultimately. And so you see, speaking of shape shifters and tricksters, you see, oh, God, what's her name? The very made-up woman. Yeah, I know. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to remember.

I think it's Elizabeth Shoe that plays her. But anyway, it'll come to me. But she meets her, and she's a grotivist. testery of humanity for where they live. So that's kind of the capital is a very different place

kind of vibe, you know. So that's the outside of your world. And then when she meets her mentor, it's Hamish. The last one from this region who won the Reaping

or won the Hunger Games. And he basically is an unreliable mentor for a lot of it, but he's got that heart of gold thing going on. Literally, her crossing with threshold is just her being on the train. So in that one, it is physical movement. Did you find the lady's name? Yeah, the character is Effie Trinket.

That's what her name was. And it's not Elizabeth's shoe. It's Elizabeth Banks. Oh, that's right. That's right. Okay. Which, I mean, you know, understandable mix up. But yeah, Elizabeth Banks, Effie Trinket.

So. Which, which can we just talk about, uh, Susan, Susan or Suzanne? Suzanne. Suzanne Collins.

Yeah. Suzanne Collins is, uh, uh, uh, naming conventions. Oh, oh,

I'd love to. Like, like, Fee Trinket. Like, there's this, there's this, uh,

almost, um, uh, uh, uh, Betty Boop kind of characteristic to the, to the first part of her name. And then her last name is,

is literally a decorative bobble. Yeah. And, and PETA, can we talk about PETA? Well, he works in a bakery. He's literally

the boy with the bread. Yeah. And, and, Oh my God. Remember when, when this book series came out, Port Mandoz of names of couples were a big deal.

Oh, yeah. And a fur. Mm. You know. Mm-hmm. So PETA and Catnus. Catna?

Sure, sure. I don't know what you're talking about, man. Yeah. What? Hmm? So, so the main TV guy, Caesar Flickerman. Oh my God.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, come on. Everybody at the fucking capital had Roman names, too. had Cina Cato, Seneca Crane, and then people who were from the different districts were named for kind of like, well, okay, so Katness's district was Appalachia. And so they all had interestingly like pride and prejudice names. names.

Um, so catnus Everdeen, uh, Hamich Abernathy. Right. Um, Gail Hawthorne, good fucking God. Right. Yeah. Um, Primrose Everdeen. I mean, that, that's some like Kira Knightley shit there. Yeah.

Well, and catnus is some kind of a flower or herb or something. There's a, there's a significant plant. element that's part of it yeah yeah um and so you you've got all those um and then but you get further into the town or into the capital you get those but you get like um what do you call names from from people from the other places thresh clove glimmer uh fox face uh there was um marvel uh like there's just anyway uh so that that's that's that's the naming thing thing. But okay, so she's literally on the train. She crosses the threshold. After the crossing of the threshold, the next step is you get kind of a conglomeration of things, right?

You get you get tested. You meet your allies and you meet your enemies. Yeah. And there are archetypes. And the thing is, and this is where I kind of kind of, what, what strikes me as one of the things I love about this as a trope is that this is a Christmas tree. The hero's journey is a framework on which all kinds of other tropes hang. It is, it is, it is a core thing on which we have ornaments. And the hero's journey. There are elements of the hero's journey that are very common, but they're not universal. And there are there are ones that, you know, we see some places and we don't see everywhere.

And so there's all kinds of stuff. You said that Gawain, like, never refused the call. Oh, no. Well, I mean, Gawain, like, depending on who it is who's telling the story, Gawain literally leaps at it, like, jumps over the table. Right. You know, cut this fucker's head off because how dare you talk? Because the point there often is that the Green Knight insults Arthur personally. And that's the point at which Gawain is like, no, that's my boy right there.

Because it's his uncle, but they're close to the same age. So, you know, they're, they have a very tight connection in a lot of the source material. And so Gawain is like, that's. No. And, you know, like bounds over the table snatches the axe out of his hands. And, you know, in a moment of rash anger cuts his head off. And so when we talk about crossing the threshold in Gawain's story, depending on who's telling it, he may cross the threshold like after epiphany. and spend much of the year wandering

because the knight told him meet me at the castle perilous or the siege perilous and like didn't give him any directions. Right. So part of Gawain's quest is he actually has to go find it and the test

is a really major part of his whole arc in that story. And so he wanders the mundane world for months, again, depending on the version of the story. And depending on what the particular jangler needed when he was telling the story to a particular audience, he might include some other story of Gawain, you know, as part of this quest. But then ultimately, for Gawain, the ultimate crossing of the threshold is when he arrives. at the home of Sir Bertilac.

Okay. And Sir Bertilac, again, depending on who the storyteller is, like, Strikes Gawain is familiar, but he's not able to quite, you know, put his finger on why, but like, he gives, he gives off a, kind of a deja vu vibe. Uh-huh. And he mentions to him, he says to Bertilac, I'm trying to find the siege perilous, have been wandering for months, and, you know, people have pointed me vaguely in various, directions, but I don't know where it is.

And Bertelach says, oh, shit, yeah. No, I know where it is. It's just, it's like half a day's ride away from here. So, you know, you've been wandering forever, you know, come stay, stay with me. And, you know, it's hospitality is a thing. So, you know, come stay with me. And, you know, you can rest up before you go face whatever your trial is. Right.

Castle Anthrax. Yeah. Yeah. And so. then in Gawain's case, um, Bertilac is kind of the shapeshifter. We could argue that Bertelac is the shapeshifter figure.

And then Gawain winds up, uh, the, his, threshold is, he crosses it and then he finds himself in Bertelac's household. And Bertolac's household. And Bertilac, says, you know, you need, you go ahead and rest up. I'm going to go hunting for the day. You stay here and anything you need.

My wife will see to what you need. And Gawain's test is Bertilac's wife. Because Bertilac says to him, I tell you what, we'll make a wager. You stay here and I will give you whatever I get while I'm hunting. But you've got to give me whatever you get while you're home. And Bertolac's what? Gawain could be a really good wingman right there and bang the shit out of Bertilac's wife

and then when Bertolac gets home he gets to bang the shit out of his own wife or he bangs the shit out of his wife and when Bertolac gets back he gives it up to Bertilac oh okay

so so in the way that Celtic storytellers really loved threes like everywhere. This is a three day. This is a three day thing. Okay. So on the first day, Bertelac goes off hunting and Bertilac's wife is is ardent in her admiration of, of Gawain. And she's really, really laid in it on thick.

And Gawain is trying to put her off. And he finally consents to, uh, putting his arms around her and holding her. And then when Bertelac gets back, Gawain meets him at the door and throws his arms around him. And Berlach says, oh, all right, well, all I've got for you is this fox. And, you know, drops a fox in front of him. And like, that's their whole conversation.

On the second day, similar pattern happens. But Gawain consents to, or gives in. I don't know if consent is the right word. finally, you know, gives in or gives in to his own desires and kisses a Bertelac's wife. So Bertelac comes home and, you know, a wager is a wager. Gawain kisses Bertilac. Okay. And Bertilac says, oh, all right.

Well, you know, all I've got, you know, we're, here's, here's the boris. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then on the third day, it's the day before Gawain is going to leave and he's going to head off to face the green night. And he's told them what it is that's going to happen. He's told them the story of like, you know, I, I hauled off and I cut this guy's head off,

but he picked his head off and he picked his head up and, you know, told me I'll, I'll be waiting for you. And so Gawain is going to meet his death. Like, there's no, there's no question about this. And so Bertelach's wife, you know, begs and pleads and, you know, puts, puts all the moves on. And what she ultimately says is. I cannot, you know, you, you, you are showing incredible restraint and great chivalry, you know, but I cannot bear to think of you dying. And I have in my possession this sash.

And it's magical. And it will protect you from harm. And I beg you to take this, to take this sash. Okay. Gawain takes the sash. Bertilac comes home and Gawain kisses him again, but he doesn't give him the sash. And so the following day, Gawain heads off to the siege perilous. And so he has faced this temptation.

And he has done real well right up to the point where it comes down to fear for, his own life. And he failed because he didn't keep his word, right? And so that is, that is his, that is his test. That is 100% his test. And, um, I'm going to, I'm going to pause that story there. Okay. Before we get all the way through to the rest of the elements that are there.

Sure. But, um, so the test now. We've got to kind of look at other other places where this happens. Now, at the end of the last episode, you talked about, you know, being, that's the word I'm looking for, not heretical, but. Blasphemic? Blasphemous, yes. You talked about skirting the line of being blasphemous when you mentioned. Oh, the 40 days in the X-L.

The 40 days in the desert. Here's the thing. The 40 days in the desert, if you want to apply this arc to the life of Christ, the 40 days in the desert are the temptation and the test. Are there at least the temptation? Yeah, yeah. The Garden of Githemite may be the test. But the temptation in the case of Christ is in the desert. It is literally the devil himself showing up.

Right. And saying, you know, I will, you know, I'll give you know, food and drink and whatever. And, you know, ultimately, I will give you all the kingdoms of the earth if you but worship me. Right. You know, and Christ says, no, I, I'm not, that's not my mission. That's not my cause. That's not what I'm here to do. And so Christ, obviously because he's Christ, he passes the test.

Gawain kind of fumbled it. Which is very likely conscious of Christ passing the test, too. Yeah. Yeah. Since they're going for the Grail. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, in the case of the Green Knight, he's not yet on the Grail quest. But yeah.

No, but like, you know, Gawain as a character, oh, yeah. You can't be Jesus. Well, no, number one, he can't be Jesus. And number two, what's what's fascinating and part of the reason that if there is only one fan of Gawain of Orkney in the world, I'm, I'm that fan. Is Gawain is to me the most human of the 19th. of the round table. Yeah.

You know, Pellinor kind of turns into a self caricature. Lancelot is a fuck boy. And depending on who's telling

the story, he goes from bad to worse, frankly. And part of that is presentism because the society that he was written to be a hero for is very different from ours, but, you know, he's not. He's too perfect in some ways and too much of just a jackass in others.

Galahad and Percival, respectively, depending on which version of the Grail story you're looking at, both of them are too perfect in different ways. The beginnings of Percival's story, have him being almost a comic figure and kind of cartoonish it could be argued that K is as human as Gawain but K doesn't have the same amount of screen time

really and so Gawain as one of the really major characters I think is the most is the most human and the most relatable because he fucks up, like, a lot. But there's always this desire to do better. And there's always the striving to be better than the other members of his family because his mother is evil.

And his youngest brother is evil. And he and his brothers hate his stepfather. Like, you know, and so, yeah, he, he, he, is the aspirational night, I guess. In at least the way I have always looked at it. Sure. And so

him flubbing this is very much kind of in keeping with his uvra. There's another legend earlier on in the cycle and earlier on

in the chronology of the development of the cycle in which, again, Again, there's a marvel that appears at the court, and all the nights go chasing off after it. And Gawain, in his, in the heat of the moment, in his over-eagerness to achieve the quest, they're all trying to hunt down this white stag, this white heart. And in his over-eagerness to seize the prize, he winds up killing a woman. and that's a thing that carries over into other myths about him or other legends about him after this and he's always working to try to make up for and do penance for that wrong and so one of the major stories about Gawain is about Dame Ragnall, a crone, a crone,

rides into Arthur's court and again as a marvel at the beginning of a feast and she challenges the knights to you know

answer her her riddle and right now I'm not remembering all the details because this wasn't something I took notes on for this episode but it's it's it's now kind of important because we still see the same parts of the hero's journey going on here. But there's variation in that Dame Ragnell is the Herald.

And the knights go off and Gawain winds up getting the answer to her riddle. And what what Ragnall asks is what does every woman want? And the knights get sent out to try to find the answer. to a riddle because if they don't find it, there's going to be a curse laid on on the court. And Gawain, you know, and they ask women, they go out and they ask women, what do you want? What do you want? And some women say they want a good husband. And some women say that they want, you know, security.

And some women say that they want a handsome man. And some say they want lots of children. And like, none of them are giving the same answer. And one of them says, and one says to Gawain, she says what women want above all else is they want to, and depending on the way it gets phrased. But basically, the answer that Gawain gets is they want to be able to choose for themselves. Okay. And so Dame Ragnall comes back to court to court. and Gawain gives that answer

and she says, excellent, that's it. That's at the end, at the end of the day, that's something that every woman wants. Right. And Gawain, then, because he got the answer right, congratulations, you now get to marry Dame Ragnall,

which is kind of the, taking one for the team, because again, she's a crone. right? And there's description in in various versions of the legend of, you know, her stooped posture and warts on her face and all this stuff. And, you know, Gawain, you know, remembering what what he did to a woman before is like, you know what, if this is what I got to do, this is what I got to do. Right. You know, and, you know, they have a wedding feast that's, you know,

nobody's really having a good time and they go back to their chambers at the end of the night and um goane comes into the room and he finds waiting for him this radiant beautiful woman and dame ragnal says I was the one who gave you the answer number one okay

number two um you now have a choice this is this is me right now and you've seen what I look like in the other in the other seeming that I have you're my husband so you know you get to pick

am I going to be like this when at night when we are alone or am I going to be like this during the day when we're around everybody else in court you only get one

half of the time whatever you pick that's when I'm going to be gorgeous and the other half of the time I'm going to look like I did when I first showed up the court and Gawain

thinks about it for a moment and he says well I can't make that choice for you ah you listen you yeah yeah basically he he paid attention he learned you know and he and he says you know um if you are in in the the the the seeming of the of the of the of the crone when we're out with everyone you're going to have to bear the weight of that embarrassment and that that you know everybody

looking at you the way everybody was looking at you and if you were like that when we are alone, you know, you're going to have to be like that when we're alone. And, you know, that's, that's a burden for you, too. So, like, which are, how are you going to be happier? And by making that choice, he broke the curse. And, and, and she got to be, she got to remain beautiful all the time. And so in that case, he manages to pass the test. and in that case, Dame Ragnel is both the herald and the shapeshifter and the maiden, which is a character and ally that we haven't talked about yet.

Right. Or damsel. Sorry, the word is in Campbell, it's not maiden, it's damsel. Okay. And sometimes the damsel is the goal of the quest. Sometimes the damsel is someone that the hero meets along the way,

who becomes a partner or, you know, kind of a, you know, when you get done with the quest, she'll kind of be your reward. You know, for St. George, the damsel was the object of the quest, you know, rescuing her from the dragon. And so in Star Wars, we have an interesting example of a damsel because she's, she rescues herself and she rescues them. Yes. which is a wonderful deviation from the traditional form of the character and kind of remarkable that Lucas, who is otherwise following the whole scheme so closely, you know, they arrive and we, we as the audience, have seen the damsel in peril. You know, we've seen the door shut as the tortured droid, you know, floats into the room, right? Right. and she has had to witness her own planet being destroyed before her very eyes.

Right. And then our heroes arrive, or our hero and his shapeshifter sidekick and the shapeshifter sidekick and the mentor all show up. And like you said, she winds up rescuing all of them. Mm-hmm. And so in The Hunger Games, I kind of think the damsel is PETA. In some ways. Well, the thing is, is that, like, again, it's not proscriptive. It's descriptive, right?

So it's not so much that you have to find a damsel and of this and a that. It's you have allies. I think in many ways the damsel would be rue. Okay, that makes sense, yeah. Because Pita is her shape shifter. Literally the fucker camouflages himself. You know? Yeah.

Because Rue is like the youngest one of the group ultimately. Yeah. And Katniss very much like sees that Rue's got like some cleverness to her because she's hiding all the time. She's really good at hiding. Yeah. But also Katniss like looks out for her. Whereas Pita, Pita straight up like,

Their test is the opening ceremony in a lot of ways. Like, can you capture the crowd, right? But also, they're literally tested for their martial abilities, right? Right, right, yeah. And Pita is from her region, so he's an ally, but he is like a shape judge. And in many ways, Hamich, he's, well, Hamich and Sina are both. Sina is the one that teaches her about fashion and how to do this. things.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But ultimately, I think Sinha is less a mentor, even though he gives her good advice. And he's very much the one that, like, kind of represents like the generosity of allies, right? Okay, yeah. He does in it with her. And he even says, I think they're like at the top of some building. It's been a while since I've seen it.

but they're on the top of some building looking over like the uh the capital and uh pita and she have a conversation about it but i honestly think that's kind of the next step for them anyway but yeah but i think pita is the shape shifter because again he he camouflages um and rue is her damsel and and that kind of takes them to uh the uh the the enemies that she runs into right Because in that stage, you've got your allies, you've got your tests, and you've got your enemies. Yeah. Well, and you have the challenges, whatever form they take, you have the challenges that need to be overcome.

Right. Now, to me, those are the tests and the present yourself to the crowd and the girl on fire and all that shit. Yeah. And in more classical kind of examples, I'm thinking of like Cillin Carbdis. and the, you know, fighting against whatever, whatever the, the various, like in a video game arc, we're kind of talking about, you know, the, the, what I'm thinking of is the, is the, the, the challenge presented by the monsters you've got to fight on the way to the boss, if that makes sense. So for Luke, it's finding Leia and getting back off the Death Star ultimately. Yes.

It's getting into and out of the detention center. It's getting out of the garbage pit. It's getting across, literally swinging across the open chasm. Yep. And you're exposed to your enemies at this point, right? It's all the guys in white. Yeah. It's all the stormy and all that.

It's all the stormtroopers. Yeah. So for Catness, it's the people. from like districts one and two. It's the career people, the one where like that district, those two districts like produce like the best sociopaths. Yeah. So she meets like the career,

they're not called the reaped. They're the tributes, the career tributes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. And so this is often, most often, this is where we see. Other figures that show up in the story along the way, usually somewhere along here, are the goddess or the temptress, who are to the female, feminine kind of archetypes that show up here.

The goddess being a figure who provides healing, provides aid, you know, provides strength or support somehow. It gives rest to the hero in the middle of the rest of that would be Sina that would also be the sponsors that that she secures Because later on she gets the things she gets a sleeping bag she gets water she gets like burn salve I consider those to be two steps later though those items she gets that's the reward For doing yes in her most cave but but the sponsors that she meet that I mean because she like shoots an arrow into an apple I think that's like in a pig's mouth or yeah that one of the one of the sponsors is pulling yeah and they're all literally above her looking down and kind of ignoring her until she grabs their attention right yeah so you know Luke shows up on Yavin and you know in the cut scene is Biggs actually seeing him and like voucher for him. But in the OG scene, like in the original theatrical release, there was no discussion of that. But there is Luke sitting in there with all the other pilots. Well, that's not much,

you know, that's not that hard. I used to bullseye wamp rats. You know, he's sitting next to Wedge Prime because there were two actors that played Wedge. But it's, he's being given advice by Jan de Donna, and they're giving him the plan. And, all this and he's given he's given a fucking x-wing um you know and all these things and and his trickster comes with him that being r too yeah yeah and so that's yeah yeah yeah so that's yeah yeah shit what well just that i've i've invested so much in the idea of of hon solo being the trickster and god damn shape shifter yeah okay because he changes who he is and It comes back.

Okay. Shapeshifter. Yeah. Yeah. Distinction. Yeah. All right. All right.

Okay. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. So, yeah. You know, Luke makes all the allies that he can on, on Yavin. Right. Katness does it during the trials. Yeah.

As they're getting ready. And see, it's happening for both of them. And this is one of the things about how there are variations on a theme going on. Because with Katniss, that happens much earlier. that contact with those benefactors happened much earlier in the arc than it does with Luke. Luke has already been into the Death Star, come out of the Death Star,

and now he's going to have to go back, right? Yeah. Whereas for Catanus, that contact is made much earlier and it then it then leads to the boons happening at a similar place in the arc, but the presence of the characters. Yeah. For her, the test is what folds everything up. I think for Luke, everything folds up with the test as well if we consider the... What do you think Luke's innermost cave is? To me, it's Han leaving. And Luke being told by Leia, he has to figure out his own path. You can't choose it for him.

I think that's a really strong contender. I think that's a good. I think that's a good. good that's a good interpretation of that and for the audience when we talk about the innermost cave yeah this is the nadir for the hero um there is a point there is a point where the hero frequently though not always undergoes some kind of death and rebirth no i'm i'm completely wrong then that's when obiwan dies i mean it's the loss of the mentor the loss of the mentor is its own is very often most of the time its own stage. Okay, but I don't

Being a mentor, you remember you know, your your dad saying to you that, you know, hanging out with a hero is never, never good career move. Like, no, I know that having the mentor die is a necessary part, but isn't that the approach to the innermost cave?

You mean in the case of Luke? Yeah. I, I can't believe he's gone. You know. Yeah, when you've just watched your planet get blown up, but you have to console your new, your new, I'm trying to remember how they phrase that your new buddy. Yeah, you have to, yeah, you have to console your new buddy about the death of his martial arts mentor. Yeah. Like.

That he literally isn't past the one month mark with. Yeah. And, and like, I literally just watched my entire planet get decimated. Like, I watched a billion people or more. Yeah. And, and again, I want to point out a very, very male-centric, this whole arc has been written out to be. 100%. Because that's such a perfect example right there.

Yeah. Her job is to comfort him. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. So. So I would say that's his Nadeer. I would say that's his innermost cave.

I think I think you're right. Yeah. I think there is there there is because there's another explicit phase that is referred to by by by Campbell it's very specifically referred to as the night sea journey.

Mm-hmm. And I know in episode four, that is the trench run. That is their that's the ordeal space. Right. Well, and it's, yes, it's, it serves multiple, it serves multiple roles in the story at once. Okay. But yes.

So the, so the, the, the hero has some, some, I want to go back to death and rebirth and, and the cave, though. So, yes, I think, again, in Star Wars, because we're doing the hero's journey on a speed run in that movie. witnessing the death of his mentor acts as or could be argued to act as both of those things at once it's the death of the mentor and it is his his nadir okay so death of the mentor is its own discrete step

yes it is okay I always spoke it as being the nadir like because now you're alone right and that sets you up for the ordeal Like I've always taken it as the innermost cave then leads you because you go down into the underworld and then you come back out alone. So, so the, yeah, the intermost cave, the innermost cave, as Campbell codified it was a, again, because he looks at everything very much in terms of the physical journey. and so the descent into the the the the the the innermost cave or the deepest cave descent into the

underworld is it can happen at different points in the story and it it frequently represents a a spiritual or emotional low point but it doesn't necessarily always represent the nadir. It does frequently lead to the final test and the final ordeal, the final battle, whatever you want to call it against, you know, the big bad. I always took the ordeal as being your first fight alone, right? So to me, it was inner cave, lose your mentor.

That's what the inner cave is for. And then you come out of it and you got to fight alone. and then you get your reward for fighting alone, and then you have to kind of like start carving your own path, like the road back, and then you get to the climax where you fight the Big Bad. See, the way Campbell codified it, the fight with the Big Bad happens before you start the road home.

Oh, okay, okay. So Luke's Road Home in episode four, is really fucking short. Yes, it is. It's literally the length of the, the length of the throne room or the, yeah, yeah, it's the length of the walk up to get a metal put on him.

Yeah. So, you know, in Star Wars, in episode four, it's, it's truncated significantly. It's trench run, blow shit up, right? Yeah. What's his reward? What's the, seize the sword, moment for him. Oh, it's used the force, isn't it? Yeah, the seize the sword moment is definitely

used the force. Use the force. Yeah. Yes. And that off your targeting computer. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, that is, that is the full embrace of his power as the hero. Okay. Yeah. At that point. That is, that is. And then having done that, in the case of Star Wars, um, Luke in Star Wars, I would argue he has a nadir moment when when when when he sees Obi-Wan die. Yeah. No. Yeah, he has a nadir. But then in that movie, he does not really undergo a death and a rebirth.

That doesn't. Yeah, you're right, because that happens in episode five where he loses his hand. Yes. Yes. Actually, he has a couple of those. Fuck, when the wampa hits him. He's just battered and tattered. Yeah, Empire, it could be argued that Empire Strikes Back is just a very extended death and rebirth moment for Luke.

Yeah. He also has a very explicit entry into the inner cave, you know, heavy with the dark side that place is. Yeah. And also on Bespin, where he's going through like all the different chambers, also a dark place where he like, oh yeah. And that's and that's co-terminus. Yeah. With the ordeal in that film, which is the battle finally facing Vader one on one, right? Which he's like been champing to do up to that point.

And he ultimately fails. Yeah, yes, yes. And he ultimately realizes just how far in over his head he is. Like, oh, shit, this is bad, right? Yeah. Still manages to actually, you know, put up a pretty good fight. Wounds Vader. Wounds Vader.

Hits him in the shoulder. Yeah. But, you know, he's still massively outclassed. Oh, God, yeah. You know, but in episode four, or there is no, there is no moment of death and rebirth. There is, there is a, an emotional nadir when he,

when he sees his mentor die. Mm-hmm. And then, so, you know, he then, wait, so in the trench run, in the trench run, he gets hit, R2 is offline. Okay. There are several times where Luke takes damage,

R2 gets hit to the point where he, He shuts down and now Luke is completely alone in the trench run. I dare say that that would be as close to a death and rebirth as you get for Luke there. He also loses Biggs. He loses Biggs. And we don't really understand it in the original. But we all understand. Like losing Biggs was and he has a moment where he's like, you know.

Yeah. And it has to re-center himself. I will say that that comes closest to death and rebirth in that it is it is a moment of desperation. It is a moment of almost helplessness, not quite completely helplessness, but you get what I mean. Yeah, the despair. Yeah, he is at his weakest. He is at a point of near despair. and that is when he finally fully accept the force.

Right. And, you know, achieves his full, fully actualized heroism. He's fully armed and operational. Yeah, there you go. And then manages to succeed at, you know, the impossible task. Is his resurrection actually... Han Solo coming back. I mean, most of Luke's journey through the hero's journey has been being pulled by others anyway.

So could it be that you've got to talk to the hero? Okay. No, I don't think so. I think that is that is an example of Han again as shapeshifter. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Port playing the role of shape shifter and aiding Luke in the completion of his quest. Okay.

Yeah. After Luke has already had the moment of, you know, this is what I got to do, turn off the targeting computer. Right. Okay. So I think, I think Luke has his moment of realization, has his, you know, moment of despair, pulls out of the moment of despair. And then we as the audience are like, oh, my God, what's going to happen? Right. And then literally coming out of the sun.

Yeah. You know, here comes, here comes Han Solo having in his own way kind of reached a point in his own hero's arc. Right. Where, you know, he accepts being, you know, being motivated by nobler impulses. And he shows up and, you know, uh, uh, shoots the guy next. to Vader who then bounces into Vader and flings Vader off, you know, of course. Yeah. And then Lucas,

39 fucking seconds or something. Like I timed it once. I forgot in the number, but it's, oh, yeah. It's excessive. You know, what I'm going to say about that from the point of view of somebody who's who knows more than I should about aircraft. And admittedly we're talking about spacecraft, but like all of the tropes associated, with Starfighters or aircraft tropes.

Sure. Somebody knows more than I should about aircraft because of my upbringing. If you're in that kind of a spin for 39 seconds, that's a design flaw. Like, I understand that that tie whatever model, I'm trying to remember what it's tie in, tie advanced. Yeah. Like, however. type.

That's a very good point. And Vader was the greatest pilot in the galaxy, so hubris was also built into the ship. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. But, you know, he's, and when we then layer on to that, everything that we've seen since about just how powerful in the force Vader is, like the fact they just kept spinning that long and like just didn't use space ninja wizard powers to. stabilize himself sooner. I mean,

anyway, but that's, that's retconning. Or he was using all of that, and anyone other than him would have just spun into jelly from all the centrifugal force. That's a good point. That's,

okay, there's a meaningful argument there. But anyway, that's a design flaw. I'm just saying, if you can't recover from that faster than that. Well, that was a deadly event that a Jedi,

a Dark Lord of the Sith, was able to, turn into a comically long pain in the ass. That's true. So deadly event for anyone else. Whole thing would have blown up. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Any of the any of the inquisitors would have been borked. Yeah. There's no way. Yeah. All right. Okay.

I get that. All right. Fair. So. So, anyway. And then Luke, you know,

has his death and his rebirth. And achieves the quest and then return. He doesn't, the funny thing is, he doesn't, he doesn't have a return to the normal world. Luke pursues a path of becoming a Jedi like his father before him. And, and fundamentally changing the mundane world. Yeah, but he brings salvation back to everyone. So I would say that that's the, the, it's called the return with the,

elixir, I think. With the boon. The boon. The boon. So the boon is that he now has the force. And he carries the legacy of the Jedi. Yeah. And he has made the galaxy safer by destroying the Death Star.

Okay. That's fair. That works. So. Catness. Yeah. I mean, we kind of speed ran through it with Star Wars, which is fine because I think, you know, as we pick up steam, these things make more sense.

so catness her her nadir is probably when she and it's emotional when she and pita are standing there and pita's like i would fucking rather die and she's like jesus i'm all alone there's nobody who's in this fight with me um and i think he says something like don't let this change me like and I think he even says something along the lines of like I wouldn't kill you or something yeah um and then the ordeal obviously is going to you know like all the all the seeing all the death on day one like near the cornucopia and having to run off into the woods and shit yeah um

seeing prue die uh right room ru die yeah ru yeah not pru ru yeah Yeah. So yeah, I would agree. I would agree seeing Rue die. Although, no, I, yeah, maybe, maybe. I mean, in many ways that, that, yeah, because that could lead to her resurrection. Like, that's her death. I was just thinking, like, her road back is when she starts to, like, she blows up the supplies. But Rue is alive for that part. Like, Rue helps her with that. And I think that's your, so the reward is, I think, where she gets like all of the rewards from the sponsor people. Mm-hmm.

And then she, the road back is where they blow up the career tributes stuff. Like they start to take victories, right? Right, right. And then the, the, so rude dying is out of place. with that on some levels? Well, so the line of success of the hero doesn't have to necessarily be on a consistent track. Cool.

Then yeah, I would agree that Rue dying is her low point. Yeah. And then, yeah, so then you get to like the resurrection, like her rebirth, like you said. Yeah. And yeah, that's absolutely her starting to pick off people. and she and at that moment

she also right what do you call it there's the the the beasts and stuff like that like she gets really heavy oh yeah the mutant hounds or whatever that like we're kind of led to believe

that like they're made from the corpses of the other tributes somehow yeah it's just all kinds of weird like but then the climax there, I think, ultimately. Like, her rebirth is she and PETA agree to not kill each other. And they're like, they're told that they have to, one has to kill the other or they both die. And they're just like, fine, fuck it.

Kill us. Yeah. Yeah. And that moment is the autonomy moment, I think. And that, to me, that's the rebirth, right? Very much. Yeah, no, I fully agree with that. Yeah.

Yeah. And then because when they do that, they're actually getting ready to eat poison berries. Yeah. And I do remember that. Yeah. And when they do that, they're getting ready to do that. And then the game master finally relents and it's like, okay, you both win. You both win.

There's their victory. Mm-hmm. And then having done that, then they literally get to go back home. Yeah, and they bring back with them the boon of having put one over on the system. Yes. And planting that seed of... Yeah, rebellion. Resistance.

Yeah, because... And this is, of course, I'm trying to confine it to just the one movie. Yeah. But she... She... like spreads that defiance on Rue's behalf to Rue's district as well and does the little whistle thing. And then all of them like that becomes kind of an avatar for Ruse spirit as well. But yeah.

So that that's okay. So we've done Star Wars. We've done the Hunger Games. And so now I'm going to close it out with Gawain. That's what I was figuring. Yeah. Yeah. So Gawain gets up on the morning of the fourth day

And Bertilac is not there To see him off And Bertilac's wife Pleads with him not to go Begs him You know take me with you we can flee we can run away You know I'm in love with you please please please And he says no I gave my word

Right And as a night I have to do this like I'm gonna die, but I, I can't not. And so he has, in his own way, he has a very truncated, uh, kind of, kind of journey. Um, he has, he has been, he has faced the tempteress. And he goes down and, and in his legend, she's also, she also kind of takes on the role of

the goddess because she's given him this boon, right? She's given him this magical sash. and he's wearing the sash when he goes into, and it's not, I've been saying the siege perilous, and that's wrong, it's the chapel perilous. And so he goes to the chapel, and the green knight is sitting there running a wet stone along the edge of the axe.

Oh, boy. And, and I mean, it's this, it's this wonderful, like, if I had a time machine, one of the things I would want to do, honestly, is go back to any 13th century French court and listen to this story being told or English court and listen to this story being told. Because the modern interpretations of it have this, have this ghost of what must have been a premier moment for a storyteller. um in in doing you know portraying the the tone and the attitude of both of these two men because the you know the green knight is is very sardonic and like oh well yeah you showed up i didn't expect that all right cool thought i'd have to so yeah you know um and and going

being very curt is like yeah i'm here you know i'm ready to face it let's let's let's do this thing. And the green knight tells him, all right, lay your head down on the block there. And he hauls off. And Gawain takes a deep breath. And he hears the axe start coming down.

And he tenses up in the night says, you flinched. And Gawain says, all right, fine. Okay. You know, and all right. And he settles down. So you're going to do two for flinching? And, well, and the night and the night, you know, again, you know,

braces himself and brings his axe back. I don't remember what he says the second time, but he stops again. Doesn't do it again. And Gawain takes the deep breath and it's like, all right. And the green knight brings the axe up a third time and brings it down and nicks Gawain's neck and Gawain springs up and says look

jackass that's three times like you know and now and you've struck me now so you know I'm gonna fight you and the night sits down and laughs

and the night is Sir Bertilac and he has taken on the form of the green knight, and he has been given the magic of being able to have his head cut off and put it back on by Morgan Lafay, Arthur's half-sister. Right. As a way of testing the knights. And he says, you showed up. And that's courage. That's metal. But you're still wearing that sash. And I know that my wife gave it to you. And I know what my wife told you. and Gwain says, yeah, tell you what,

I'll take it off and you can try it again, Jackass, because, and he says, no, no, I don't need to do that

because you showed up. Right. And that's, that's it. You know, and I gave you, I gave you three swings for the three days,

you know, and the Nick there was for you holding on to the sash, but, you know, you showed up, you did what you need to do, and now you can go back

and, tell everybody in Arthur's court exactly what happened. And Gawain went back to Arthur's court, and he told everybody exactly what happened. And he wore the green sash for the rest of his career as a reminder to himself of his failure. But it is said that the other nights, many of them took it up as an affectation

to honor him for his question. and for his valor. And he's like, they didn't get it. Right. They didn't understand. That's not why I'm wearing this thing. I'm wearing it to remind myself of where I fucked up.

Mm-hmm. And so Gawain has his death and he goes into the chapel. And he faces the blow of the axe three times. And he receives his blow and, you know, arises from it. And he takes with him. back to what counts for him as much as it can for anybody when you're in Arthurian myth. Everything in Arthurian myth takes place in a Celtic dream world. But he goes back to the mundane realm of Arthur's court,

which is a phrase that nobody should ever use, but you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. And he brings with him wisdom. The boon he takes back is what he learned. from the experience. And, and so that is, that is one example, because Arthurian legend is full of this. Like Arthur himself, in one of the stories,

has a complete Heroes arc story on his wedding day. When he and Gwynnevere Mary, Guinevere asks Merlin to perform a magic trick for everybody, since he's a wizard, you know, do something, do something cool. Yeah. And Merlin, you know, she's, she's just she's too cute she's too adorable and too innocent and he's like all right well I you know I got to do something I got to make this girl smile so he casts of he creates an

illusion of of a rope rising up out of his hat and a rabbit chasing up this rope and then a fox chasing the rabbit up the rope and disappearing and that attracts the attention of fairy and a lord of fairy shows up kidnaps guinevere and rides off and Arthur and his knights go chasing after her and they have a whole journey into fairy they face in their case when they run into shape shifters they're they're not they're not helpful they're they're bad but Arthur you know faces a challenge and the damsel in this case is his wife who he has to rescue and bring back and she is also the boon and so they you know and but but the arc is there there is the call to adventure when

The fairy lord shows up and kidnaps his wife. And the whole, and the whole story is represented. And we see it over and over again in many, many of the Arthurian stories. You know, and we see it in other sources in, in modern media. There are plenty of stories, you know, self-contained episodes within Star Trek, where we can see some weird shit happening that nobody in Starfleet has seen before. and you know Kirk et al the rest of them you know have to have to go

down to a planet and deal with the weirdness of the planet right in order to then bring something back or solve some problem to then go on the rest of their way right and so this is this is again and this is the kind of what

what Campbell was trying to to explain to everybody was that this is, this is a, a template that we tell over and over and over and over again. Right. Because union archetypes and it just, it's, it's part of the way our brains work.

It's part of the way we perceive stories. And so different stories involve different, different elements. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and there's so many different archetypes and parts of this that we've kind of left on the cutting room floor just in the process of talking about it. But this is, this is the, the story cycle that so many of our legends and our myths, uh, kind of boil down to. And, you know, there have been criticisms about this because the way Campbell wrote it, was very 1940s.

Yeah. And it was very male focused. And using Katness as an example of it, I think, is meaningful and important to, to point out that for a very long time, like Campbell would, would have probably found a way to try to shunt Katness. into some other kind of archetype because the hero's journey is a male thing. Right. Like in his in his estimation. And I think and I think throughout much of history,

that's true, but we're now living in in a world where it doesn't have to be anymore. Mm-hmm. And and I think that's, that's important. It's interesting because like he, does all this stuff and we talked about it I think in the last

episode in like 1949 and there are plenty of examples of women who were the hero's journey again Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz now I grant you that the book was you were following weren't you following a boy at first

no the sequel the sequel was the second story was a boy yes yeah because Dorothy was the the girl Wow, how the fuck did I remember PIP after all this? Anyway, right? How did I forget having done four episodes? We've covered a lot of ground.

This is true. But that being said, like, what do you call it? There's an example right there of a female hero's journey. On the silver screen, within 10 years of him, right? this. Yeah. In his lifetime, these would have been books that he would have grown up listening to quite possibly.

Oh, yeah, potentially. Yeah. So kind of funny that he left. Yeah. Well, you know, blind spots being blind spots. Yeah. Now, the darker twin of this cycle is the cycle of revenge. Mm.

Okay. Which, you know, I can go into in more detail another time. but like the most notable example that I can think of in this case is Conan the Barbarian. I was going to say John Wick. John Wick is a much more contemporary example of it. And after I've had a chance to watch John Wick fully all the way through, that might be what I choose is my archetype when I talk about the cycle of revenge. But yeah, Conan the Barbarian, from the movie at least, I can speak to. to that.

Yeah. His whole existence is revenge. Yeah. 100%. Yes. And so as you pointed out, Lord of the Rings, you know, you make a compelling argument that Samwise has a more complete hero's journey. Again, I think we see two characters on the hero's journey at the same time there.

Right. And I think the difference in their returns home is a very, very personal thing that Tolkien probably would have been very uncomfortable being interviewed about. Because I think it very much reflects his own viewpoint as an officer in the Great War. and a man of the gentlemanly class. Right. As opposed to the soldiers under his command. Mm-hmm. And his depiction of the way that Frodo was damaged and diminished.

Mm-hmm. And, I think, speaks really eloquently to whatever legacy in his own soul. he carried after the war. And I think there's still a hero's journey there, but I think the ending of it is different. I think each of them, each of them carries back a different internal, I don't know if Boone is the right word.

I think they're both, they're both, they both generate the same boon, which is a world free of Sauron. But their ability to reconnect with the world afterward is, is part of their, part of the difference in their experience of the ring quest. Well, I mean, Sam carried it for a very short period of time. So it couldn't husk him out. And also Sam comes back with the boon of, I have faced Shelob. I have faced all the evils of the world. I can ask a girl out.

Yeah, yeah. And his boon is courage. Yes. And there's also, I think it's, it's very powerful that also part of what he carries back in a very, in a very physical sense, not metaphysical or emotional, but in a very physical sense, he brings back the seed from Lothelorian. That represents the physical healing of the Shire. Okay, yeah.

And there's, there's, there's a lot in that that could be unpacked. But yeah. So, you know, this is, this is, this is a really powerful template. And, and this is, this is something, this is one of those. This is one of those kind of meta tropes that after you think about it once, you, you see it everywhere for months. Yeah. Until you finally manage to kind of forget about it and let it go away for a little while. And you're not, oh, this is the crossing of the threshold.

And oh, this is that. Until some asshole like me brings it back up. And you're like, God damn it, now I have to think about every story I watch again. You know, and it, I think, I know, it's part of the English curriculum in seventh grade. And it is when you can get kids to pay attention to it, it is really wonderful after you've taught it to see them twigging to it with other stuff later. And it's, it's, it's a wonderful element of media literacy and meta understanding of narrative. And in that way, I think it's brilliant. I think the way that Campbell really like solidly tried to be very proscriptive about it creates problems.

But I, but I still think like I recommended at the end of last episode, I think the book is still worth, very much worth. reading. And I think it's a concept that can be very empowering for us as consumers of media. And for that reason, I love it unabashedly. And so that's that's kind of everything I've got. if you've got any questions or any other points you want to bring up? No. I think, I think, uh, the proscriptive urge that people have with things like this is remarkably constructive, actually, as long as you, because you could, it's k-fab. Because you can, you can be like, okay, this has to fit, this has to fit, this has to fit,

which is a really good exercise in engaging the text and things like that because you will end up arguing back and forth like oh no actually it's this no it's that it's and you come up with good reasons why and then if you you know nobody carries the kfeb with them when they finally get out of the cow palace so if after you've spent all this time in the darkness and you're looking at it and doing this and this and then you walk outside and breathe fresh air and be like Well, that was fun. Like, I think that that's remarkably useful because now you have dissected and reassembled. You've deconstructed, if you will, whatever text you're reading or watching. And in so doing, I think you have a deeper understanding and appreciation for that art. And you can walk away and been like, well, that was a fun exercise. And it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong.

Yeah. That last part, unfortunately, is what people. struggle the most with so yes um but i do i do love the the very like i said in the last episode i love a good dogma i like the cube theory of food um and i really like the uh the idea that most of these stories of somebody growing and going off is some sort of version of a hero's journey and then recognizing fully that like, no, there are elements that stretch across. You know, it's kind of like if we go back to our X-Men represents this and this and this. Right.

It can. You know, we said many times in our X-Men episodes, well, this is what white people saw during these times. That doesn't mean that it was accurate, you know. Yeah. but you know the X-Men stand for something far broader that's very true and here are the ways where it stood for the civil rights movement right and here are the ways where it retroactively stood for the civil rights movement and here are the ways where it stood for the queer rights movement and here are the ways where it retroactively did and here are the ways where it actually an author said wow this looks like it stood for these things I'm going to write stories where it actually does say these things yeah yeah yeah and And I think all of those things are really useful playing with the material kind of moves. And the hero's journey gives us a template for doing that. Yeah, no, 100%.

I think that's a really good way of approaching it, certainly. So that is what I have gleaned. So what do you want people to read or watch? I am going to recommend people try to find the tale of Sergawain by, I got to zoom in here, Neil Philip. The book was originally published in 1987. It is one of my favorite modern interpretations of Arthurian legend. It obviously focuses on Sir Gawain. And like I've said, if Sergawain of Orkney has only one fan,

and I am him. But it does a wonderful job of telling a bunch of different stories out of Arthurian legend from the point of view of Gawain relating all of them to his squire as he lies wounded in his tent outside of Lancelot's castle after Lancelot killed Gawain's brothers rescuing Gwomen. from being burned to the steak. So it's toward the end of the Arthurian cycle. It's when everything in Camelot has gone to shit. And Gawain is is reminiscing and remembering when things were better. And it's a beautiful heartbreaking set of stories being told that way. And it is illustrated absolutely hauntingly by Charles Keeping.

Highly, highly recommended. It's recommended for younger readers, but I think it would do a great job for adults as well. So that's my recommendation. The Tale of Sir Gawain by Neil Phillip. How about you? Oh, gosh. What should I recommend here?

Did I recommend people watch The Matrix last time? I don't remember. I think. Well, even if you did. I think I had to watch Wizard of Oz. Yeah. Same movie. Yeah, I mean, basically, right?

No, yeah, I think watching The Matrix is actually, watch, watch, I mean, obviously watch Star Wars, always. But watch The Matrix. I think that's a really good example of what we're talking about here. Yeah, very much. And, yeah, I think. I think The Matrix would be a really good watch for understanding it from a filmic perspective. I think the godfather would actually, if you follow Michael Corleone's story.

Okay. It's the dark carnival version. Yeah. The boon that he brings back is absolutely crime and murder. But I think in many ways, you know, he answers the call. Yeah.

And you see his allies and shape shifters and stuff like that. Yeah, it's like an anti-heroic journey. Quite so. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess I'll go with those. So where can we be found?

We collectively can be found now, first and foremost on YouTube. I want to make that recommendation first. that is gradually catching up as episodes get loaded up there. Right now, it's a wonderful trip in the wayback machine to the very early days of our podcast. But please go check us out. That is a geek history of time on YouTube. Please make sure to subscribe, comment on our stuff there.

and then of course as in the format that you're listening to us right now, we can be found on the Apple podcast app, on the Amazon podcast app, and on Spotify. And wherever it is that you have found us, please take a moment if you haven't already done it to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know we have earned with our wit and our charm.

And where can you be found, sir? Well, if you are in the Sacramento area and you find yourself in the Sacramento area at 9 p.m. on the first Friday of every month, you should come down to the comedy spot in Sacramento. Capital Punishment is putting on its shows. God, you probably missed May by now. If you haven't, go to the May show, which would be on, like I said, first Friday of every month. So that would make that May the first. but there's also June the 5th and July the 3rd. Go check out Capital Punishment. It is a hell of a show. It's been going on for a long time. And Justine and Emily and I always bring some really, really good guests and just lots of wonderful puns.

So go check that out. Go Sacramento Comedy Spot.com. Go to their calendar section and get your tickets for our shows. So, yeah, that's where they can find me. All right. Cool. Well, thank you for all of this. This has been quite the journey. Yes, indeed it has. For a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock. And until next time, may the force be with you.