A Geek History of Time - Episode 390 - Juggernaut and Redemption with Special Guest Omar Holmon of Black Nerd Problems

Episode Date: October 16, 2026

They mean it is 2 o'clock in the fucking morning where I am. The 1848ers were so much more radical than what we're comfortable or familiar with. The layer, the layer of sarcasm involved in that entire delivery is like I've seen. It's not even frosting. But he failed, so fuck them buddies. Now after World War II ended, Lockley started mapping out foot trails for the newly created. Oh, God, Pembroke Shire. Pembrokeshire?

Pembrokeshire. Okay. Pembrokeshire. Just please, let me just read Latin all day. We're way into the 19th century now. I'm sorry. Well, Damien, it's 3 o'clock in the fucking morning. History of Time.

Where we connect Nervory to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California. And my wife in the last several days has started rewerewery. watching, of all things, friends. And she is watching it entirely unironically. And you and I have spoken about the series. And I cannot watch it unironically.

And oh my God, they are such shit heels to each other all the fucking time. They are all horrible, horrible people. And Ross is the worst one of all of them. I mean it's a close race but it is yeah are you going to mention Brett Hart when

when when we were on a break happens because those happened within a week of each other that's remember that was the study I was doing where I was like wow betrayal runs deep in the in the consciousness

it's popular it guys it was a huge like I I had that shit ready to go and then I just I don't know why I didn't pull the trigger on it but yeah

Because you were just so done with all of it, I think. You were like, I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to think about this. I don't want to like, no. So, yeah, so that's what I have going on on outside of recording right now. How about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a U.S. history teacher up here in Northern California at the high school level.

And unironically, my wife has started watching Living Single. No, I'm kidding. I was going to say. That's exactly what it ripped off. But no. A, I'm not married. B. I do not have somebody who has started watching Living Single.

But I kind of want to so that I could start pulling things apart. But I also don't feel like it's like my place to exactly. So maybe I'll pull in another expert as well. There you go. But like it is really messed up. It's like, damn it network. Like. Yeah.

Come on. Like. Yeah. Anyway. No. So here's what I got going on. My children, as you know, I've been teaching them Latin. We just finished translating a chapter whereby Hannibal swears an oath to forever be an enemy to the Romans.

And they pointed out what I've always pointed out. Wait a minute. He's nine? I was like, yeah. Fucking weird kid. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And the dad was like trying to give him out. He's like, if you do it, you're going to have to swear an oath by affirmation.

and then he puts the kid's hand on a dead chicken. Like, that would have broken me. I would have been like, never mind. I'm done. But Hannibal's like doubling down. He's like, oh, yeah. So weird little nine-year-old. Really hadn't I'd toward Rome, though.

So that's a good joke. That he lost an eye. But yeah, so they got to read about Hannibal. And that was pretty cool, just hearing it in the Latin accent. Because I make them pronounce it out loud, you know, it's a honeyball. Nice. Yeah, it was cool. Did you start talking to them at all about how his plans came together?

Oh, no. But he did bring his A team. Yeah. And, you know, he brought Hannibal Barakas, B.A. Baraccas. I mean, that's close. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, all right. Well, we have a guest, as people probably have heard a couple. voices in the background. We have a guest tonight. I've been looking forward to this episode for, I believe, the better part of a year, and I finally got to make it happen. We have been joined by Omar Holman, who is the co-founder of Black Nerd Problems. He's also our first Hugo Award winner, having won a Hugo Award in 2025 for Best Zine. So that's a first. And he's here to talk to us about, I would say, the incredible arc of a character that most people think of only one-dimensionally.

So, Omar, welcome. Thank you for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me, man. It's good to be here. I get to make it up for it. Oh, dude. We can't pay anybody, so it's not like anybody owes us any labor. Yeah. No, I'm just stoked that we can make it happen. So this is cool. So this is the first time we've had somebody come on to talk to us about a comic book character Since I covered Richard Ryder's Nova Nice, nice

Yeah, and I go hard in the paint because he is Probably in my top three of favorite superheroes Right behind speedball Yeah, well, yeah, two behind speedball Yeah, speedball is number one Are your favorite new warriors? Is it all your? Two of them are, and then one of them is squirre

Girl. So like... The unbeatable. Yeah. The unbeatable swirl. Yep. Yep. But yeah, it's speedball.

And then usually it's Sam Wilson, Cap. And then it's Nova. And then it's usually Peter Parker. And then it's usually Squirrel Girl. And sometimes depending on... That is unique. That's a very unique list. Nice.

I like... I mean, you know, I absolutely love... We did an episode on Squirrel Girl, actually. during the COVID times. Yeah. And so folks can go listen to that one. But I really, and we did an episode on Speedball. Actually, we did multiple episodes on Speedball.

But, and actually, if you take a look at the logo behind me, you'll note that it's Speedball's colors. Yep. And I didn't notice that until I did the episode on Speedball. I had no idea he was that into my head. But, yeah, there's something about D-List heroes that I absolutely love. I agree. You're able to see, usually when we see them get a project, it's because they get to be expanded upon.

Yes. Like, you think of Hawkeye as well. Like, nobody. I love archery, but no one really gave, no one really, I don't know, I don't want curse on your third. We curse. Yeah. Okay. Great.

No one gave a damn about Hawkeye, but then you see David Aja on Matt Fraction get together and they make him, they make him, they just put him in a good story. And basically, it's a story about him just fighting gentrification in Brooklyn. right him actually putting his money where his mouth is and like just just not being a slum lord and taking over with some lord and helping the people there and being among them the community and such like that and that transformed him and we saw him like that and that happened that they used that art for the um for the hawkeye series as well seeing him you know if only they had gone like they did some change in the hoggaret but at least the core of it was from that david a and that fraction run yeah absolutely yeah he's that's one of ed's

favorite runs. My favorite. Like, cold. Like of anything, anything in this century, it's full stop, my favorite.

Like, period. Like when Tachala comes to Hell's Kitchen to fill in for Daredo. The man without fear? Yeah. Oh my God. The Panther without fear.

Yeah. Just like, and it's my favorite part, don't get me wrong. I love the heroing thing. You know, I love, he's a shopkeeper.

He reminds me of Gordon from, from Sesame Street. You know, and he just, he's, he's out there keeping shop, but then also, you know, doing, you know, the thing in the night. I just, I really like the most mundane episodes or issues that I can find of characters. Like, I would love to see a Jarvis day out, you know, where, you know, it's just like, where he's just adjacent to weird shit that happens, you know, when Civil War happened, I loved the front line. Yeah, yeah, I remember those front line and pulse, yeah. Yeah, fantastic. And it's very rare that I like a villain ever.

But some villains kind of stick in me. Just for some reason they resonate with me. And you would not expect it, given who I said I love the most. These are all people that are built on agility and speed or bounciness. And yet there's one villain that when I read New Warriors, because I'm a huge New Warriors' stand, to me they are, what if Spider-Man had reaction? acted a different way to his power. And each of them is archetypical of that. So, but in New Warriors, I believe it's 11 and 12 and 13.

It was called, oh God, what was it called? Forever Yesterday. And they were, it was the Sphinx had taken over and it was an alternate history. And there was a mutant liberation front that was being run by Magneto and I want to say Sebastian Shaw and one of the guys who was like

their main guy out in the field was Kane Marco as a good guy and I was fascinated at the idea that Juggernaut could be a good guy he gets his back scorched by a force field helping others to survive it's kind of like a throwback to days of future pass where Wolverine

dies right away you know and Juggernaut is he's part of the mutant liberation front and they're fighting against Captain Assyria and Thoth instead of Thor and Storm and Iron Man, but it's very much Egyptian-coded. And I loved the whole series, and it really brought Nova to the front of the stories. But front and center on the comic book was Juggernaut, just to show you how jarringly weird this was.

And I never lost that idea of Juggernaut. But you... You are this incredible content creator on TikTok who talks all kinds of cool stuff about characters that are like toward the edge of the panel for most people. Yeah. You know? And oh my God, your analysis of Juggernaut is why I reached out to you so long ago. And then someday you're going to have to come back and do Iceman with us because Iceman is another one of my favorites. Yeah.

But you have done a ton of work researching Juggerna. And just for folks who don't necessarily know, juggernaut's real name was Kane Marco. He was the stepbrother to Charles Xavier. He first shows up in X-Men number 12. And he's basically this invisible off-screen, unstoppable menace. And we learn about him through a series of flashbacks told by Professor X to his students about how dangerous this man is. And then he shows back up in X-Men 32 and 33, and then again in 48. And then after that, the X-Men go off the shelves.

and he shows up in Dr. Strange and the Hulk specifically in the 70s. And he also was in the very first appearance of the new warriors. They showed up in Thor 426, I want to say. I might have my number wrong, but he's fighting. He's basically fighting the new warriors, and they're barely holding him back, and then Thor shows up and saves the day. So I've got a little bit of bio history on him, but I don't want to step on your toes on this.

So maybe I'll just fill in or jump in with that. Okay. Because if we're talking from the beginning, yeah. A lot of us have seen him from like the X-Men cartoons and whatnot. And most of what people know is, oh, he's Xavier's stepbrother. This dude don't like Xavier at all. And it's kind of like, what is the issue?

And I think in one of the early issues where I didn't, when Xavier, there's been so many times of comments where like the use of his legs was lost. I think one of them was when like Kay Marco was driving, they were driving. And it came like jumps out of a car and then it causes Xavier to like use lots with, lots of his legs. But then I think that that must have been retcon because they fought in, I don't know, I forgot which war. All a lot of Marvel characters fought in Vietnam.

Apparently there are so many fighting. So they joined the Korean War together. The Korean War. They're in the Korean War. Yeah. Because that's where he found the cave and the giant. Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. And so that's where you see him in the flashback. Do you see him going to the cave? And Xavier's like, hey, I know this is a good idea. And then he's reaching for the jewel, the Gemma Siderac. And then the cave comes down. Xavier gets out. And he thinks that Kane is dead because he's buried in all the rubble.

You find out that, oh, no, no, Cain's alive. And he becomes, like, the jargonaut. He's got this mystical power. And he becomes a nuisance in Xavier's side. Any time this man can go and just wreck this dude's house, he is there. And he's been for, what year was that debut? So that was, like, in the 60s? X-Men 12, so that would have been

1964? 64, yes. So from 64 till about I think the Academy run out of the 20, I think it was the 2000s. In the 2000s, I think I was in high school. We've seen Juggernaut just be like,

kind of just one-no character. All right, he can bang with Thor. He can bang with, he can bang with the thing. He can bang with the Hulk usually as well. And Spider-Man's gone against him as well, encased him in a famous fight that he encases him in concrete and juggerna, you can't stop him, but like, all right, he slowed him down and he escaped by just flexing his muscles to get out of the concrete that he was encased in.

And so we've seen him just beat. Doesn't he end up in a barroom fight with Colossus when. I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it. Wolverine goes to like yell at Colossus for being shitty to Kitty Pride. And basically Colossus gets in a fight with Juggernaut. in the bar and Wolverine's like this is your lesson

and I'm like you have this man who has unearthly strength and yet you're not going to do anything really okay yeah this is your you guys shoot the fair one this is yours to do yep but for I like seeing an arc

in a character where okay we've seen the same thing we've seen the same thing for this character and then all of a sudden we get to see something different when there is a young mutant I think it's named Samuel Pierre who has like a mutation. And he's Canadian. And Xavier is, I think they were entering a distress call.

Xavier, they were going towards, you know, Xavier was going to intercept. So they, they were on their way towards, where Black Tom Cassidy's Castle is there. There's a call coming out from there. Before there, they stopped because Xavier, sentences a kid about, this kid's about to turn into a shooter because he was being picked on by these kids and he bought a gun.

They stopped, recruit him into the, And to the X-Men, he's like, okay, I got a school that I can help kids like him. You see, his father is pretty harsh. And it's like we, it seems like there might be, no, I think we're, I think we're going to clues. They might the dad's abusive and like, I'm ashamed of him and everything. And then, all right, so you're getting taken off their hands. Okay, Sam's going now with them to Xavier and Beast. And then Xavier tells them like, okay, yeah, you got to come with those.

Like, yeah, oh, my God, this is so amazing. It's a cool, cool, cool. Before we do that, give me the gun. And he's like, yo, he's like, yeah, yeah. I knew, I knew what you're going to. give me the gun. Yeah. And this is Beast's first time meeting the kid.

And so he's like, I was it going to, I wasn't going to use it. I was just thinking about it. He hands over the gun. And Bees is like, oh, this is going to be exciting. Okay. Okay. Wow. All right.

This kid is different. And we see an X-Men team go into Black Tom Cassidy's castle. And Black Tom Cassidy is a friend, a friend might be lover as you, depending on how you, depending on how you're living. Yeah. Depending on how you see it. Real quick on Black Tom, he, I was always amazed by Black Tom as well because he had a genuine friendship with Juggernaut.

Like they met in prison. They had a genuine friendship. It wasn't, you're a useful tool to me or as long as the money's good, I'm good. Like they legit stuck up for each other, risked their lives for each other, but were villains. And that's like so incredibly like rare. Like it just, it's wild. And so I always was interested in Black Tom Cassidy because despite all things villainous, their friendship endured. And I'm a wrestling fan.

So I've always been waiting for the turn. And they've never turned. Yeah. Like I cut which. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. The turn is coming.

Oh. Who's the Marty Genetti of the group then? Because who gets super kicked through the winner? Juggernaut. Juggernaut. Oh, wow. Because. John Michaels is there.

Okay. Yep. because once they arrive there, they said, oh, Juggernaut was there, is the one that sent a distress call. I think he was fighting a Wolverine. And they're like, they're like, what are you doing here? He's like, I'm the one that sent to the call, man. Do you attack everybody you come to help?

And like Cassidy, I think it might have been because of the legacy virus, but he was mutating, he was going to do a second mutation. Okay. And Juggernaut was trying to help him out. And he was providing him with like, with care. He was using it, the money they got in his money to provide care for him. Right. that was running out so he was at his wit's end with um he didn't know what else to do so he called

him the x-men and cassidy's kind of like lost his mind here and so he's attacking juggernaut he's talking he's talking he's talking reckless to juggernaut too he's talking like bringing up shit now he's not in this right mind but he's bringing up like shit of juggernauts like pass and everything and it's the first time it's the first time we've seen like the juggernaut not just like shake anything off he is like it got to him and he's depressed and so he's falling into like The castle's like being destroyed. They're falling, he's falling down to his water. And Juggerna doesn't need to breathe.

He doesn't need food or anything like when he's got to, you know, the Gemma's cider act. But also, it's been a weakening for some reason. And we don't know. We're not too sure why, but he's not, he's not as strong as he once was. Right. So he's falling and he's not, he's kind of giving up at this point. So he's falling.

And they're, oh, man. And Xavier, they're on the scene. And they're like, okay, we need someone that, we need someone to go down to get, to get them. But all the X-Men are like, they're kind of like worn out. and we see Sam, the fish kid, jump in, and he goes right after Juggernaut, and he's talked to him. He's like, hey, hey, he's like, yo, I don't know who you are. It's kind of weird that I'm telling you all this thing. I was going to kill a bunch of, I was going to shoot some kids up.

But then this guy, Xavier came, and he helped me out. He said he's going to take us to his mansion. He can help us. I'm sure he can help you, too. And it was nice because Juggernaut is always attacking Xavier. Yeah. And now he's seeing this little kid talking about all like, oh, this guy, this guy, can help. I think he can help you too. And, you know, he's able to lift Jogginat because he's

underwater and water makes things light. So he's able to go. Just reach out to my hand. If you just reach out to my hand, everything will be okay. And we see Jugginaw, do that. And he reaches out into the kid and Sam's able to bring him back to the surface. And we see them going, he's in the jet with him. And the kid, the kid, the kid is just like in awe of Juggina. He's just, he's just staring at him. Sam's just staring at him the entire time. He's just like, because Juggina house like 12 feet tall. Like he's, yeah. And he doesn't, he never had a kid. He's like, all right, thank you, kids.

But he's like, he's also like trying not to get too close to the kid. Right. And then he adjusts in his seat and it makes his farting sound. And it, it was just like staring at him. And we see, and this is the first time we've seen the juggernaut over living with Xavier. And he's like, all right, he's, he's not one of them, but he's living there. He's like, okay. So it's kind of weird.

And he's like, I just need to get out of the, I didn't need to get some air, get out of this freak show. and Sam is there with him. And he's, and he's following him around. And he's like, I just need, I just, I didn't get out of the freak show. And Sam, who looks like a face is like, okay, I get. He's like, I didn't, I didn't mean like that. He's, no, no, he don't want to be around the freaks. I get, he's like, and then jogging, I was like, okay, you can, you can come with me.

He's like, I'm trying, I'm trying to be nice. Don't be a shithead. And so they're there. And he takes him to this other place and this place where Kane grew up. And Kane is seeing this, his home where his father, we see. Yeah. Father was abusing the hell out of him. Right.

And his favorite Charles at the same time. Like straight up favoring Charles. To impress Charles's mom, if I recall. Yep. Yep. Because he'd also led to the death of Charles's dad. Is that right? Yes.

He did. Okay. Yeah. And there. And he's remembering that he's telling him, oh, you're going to, we're going to, you know, I'm going to marry this woman. You're going to have a step brother. He's like, I don't want to move.

I don't want to do it. It's like, oh, I'll give you something to cry about then. So he's getting hit. And Kane is throwing stones at it. And I think he's, you know, he knocks the house off or something. And he's like, and Sam has talked to him,

just asking, like, oh, I think I'm a villain too because I was going to, she's like, no, just, you had the intent to do something

you, that doesn't make you a villain. Going through with it is what makes you a villain. And they're having this talk and, and he's not trying to deal with this kid. And he talks to something and it breaks apart the house. He's like, oh, do you look what you made me do.

And Sam, to his credit, he doesn't back down from these, this kid's probably about maybe, maybe 11, maybe 12. And he's like, I didn't do anything.

And you did that. Do you always blame other people for your, for your issues? And during that, like, he pulls up like he's going to, like, he's going to hit the get. Then he stops. And he sees that, like, oh, he's like his dad. And he stops. And then he goes in to the house. And he tears it all down. And then Sam's like, okay, what was that about? He goes, it's like an existential crisis, so to speak. Like, I, you made me realize, like, I, I don't want to, I don't want to blame other people for my own actions. You're right. And also, we get a chance to live at this in a mansion. with Xavier. So that's pretty cool, isn't it?

He's like, yeah. So they had like a little drink together. And then we see there's something different with Jogginat now being a part of the X-Men. And he's running on missions with them. And he's telling Xavier, he's kind of, he's asking Xavier, oh, is it,

he was telling me, I can put you with the squad of the X-Men if you want. And he's like, yeah. He goes, it's kind of different to be at the scene of a crime and not running away and police showing up and thanking you. And Xavier's like, Xavier's like, it sounds like you're enjoying your time here.

And he's like, I think I am. And we see, we see juggerna's starting to learn more about mutants as well because there's an issue where there's a bunch of fish that are, that are winding up, fish that are winding up dead and some animals that are winding up dead. So let me just break in real quick.

Juggernaut himself is not a mutant. He is a, what I would classify as an altered human because he touches the, the ruby gem of Siderak or Satoric, I don't remember how to pronounce it. And so he gets his power that way. So even though he shows up early in the X-Men, and this is one of the things that needed to be recons later, Cerebro goes crazy detecting him, which doesn't make much sense.

Like later on we find out, like, you know, we'll just hand-waving him that away. But he's not a mutant. Tom Cassidy's a mutant. he's friends with mutants and he has been trying to to get revenge on on Xavier and we think it's because he abandoned him

in a cave you know oh you left me for dead but it goes much deeper which I'm sure you're going to get into oh yeah yeah Xavier on the other side he is a mutant Xavier's a mutant and he

always saw Kane as just a bully yep and and so like they were they were as estranged as could be and yet bonded together through, you know, through just, you know, plot. But it's really interesting to me that he is having the same experience with Xavier and other mutants that you see several Thunderbolts have when Hawkeye is running the Thunderbolts, remember? Ah, got you.

Because he's like, well, I'm going to keep it going even though they told me to shut it down because these people are actually enjoying being heroes. The bill is that being reformed. Yeah, exactly. you know, I think specifically of Songbird as being one of them because she was screaming Mimi and then she's pretty much been on the straight and arrow if I recall. I could be wrong. I might be blending people. But yeah, so he's having a rehab moment through this. And this kid saved him. He didn't save the kid. Normally the kid, the sidekick. But like,

so there's some real interesting dynamics going on there. It's a bit of a change. It's a bit of a change because then through being with Sam, he's seen all the wrong with him and when they find out all these animals are being hurt and you see some kids doing it and juggernauts like well what's the what's the big deal there's hurt animals whatever like i've done that as a kid you also know like that's a sign of a that's a sign of a psychopath yeah uh i don't know it's a psychopath like when you start killing animals and things like that yeah blinds it's one of the one of the red flag behaviors for diagnosis of psychopathy yeah or or being a british child yes i don't know why well but but

I don't know that right this weird thing that shows up in like so many kids biographies or so many adults biographies in Britain specifically is torturing cats. Jesus, it's always cats for some reason. It's always cats. I mean, I'm like, how do you even catch them? My God. So, I mean, yeah, you can't swing a dead cat without a British kid swinging a dead cat. So for what Jean Gray does a thing here where she tells them like animals experience shame and hurt as well where she links up. she slings up

and the kids all their minds to the deer they were hurting and throwing rocks at and you see Kane on the ground just like shaking

like in shame and such like that like realizing oh I fuck I didn't know it was like this right so he comes to respect

animals as such as well and then you see him with Sam and he's like he does the thing with Sam where he's like they're going swimming and he had these

he's like you want to play catch he's like this is a thing tough guys say to each to say sorry without saying sorry to each other. And so they start playing. There's a lot of self-awareness there then.

Yeah. Yeah. And later on, we see, I think this is when, when, because there's a point where Xavier was stressed, so he wasn't handling a bunch of things, and Sam's parents didn't, his mom wasn't in contact with them. So then we see Alpha Flight come and they want to take him back to Canada. And Juggerna's like, no, these kids come from an abusive home.

And they were playing cats before then, talking about who was lose a hot girl in school and everything like that and they're playing catch and uh alpha flight comes and kane is fighting them and he but again his power has been waning so he's taking his but he's it's he's not as unstoppable as he once was and he's fighting alpha fight and he doesn't stop until sam gets in front of him he's like no don't don't don't don't don't fight over me it's stupid don't don't don't i'll go back i'll go back you're getting hurt and then they're leaving and sar and jargonaut tells sam he's like i spent a lot of my money uh trying to say black Tom Cassidy so I don't really have much left but

here and he gives him the juggernaut helmet and he's like he's like oh this is just really cool so if anyone is like if anyone bothers you he's like me all just hit him with the helmet and he goes back to Canada juggernaut has now been bothering Charles like I want to go and see them he's like well you can't do that

because of your criminal background it's like oh you're throwing that in my face now it's like I'm not throwing that in your it's what you did and their argument keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and then you And then, like you said before, we see what the issue is. Like, oh, just like, you're throwing this in my face. I'm not throwing this in your face is what needs to be done.

So now you care about protocol. And then it gets to the root issue where Kane is, he's about to explode on Xavier. He's like, you left me to die. And he goes through a punch. And it's right by Xavier. And Xavier doesn't even flinch at him. And he is like, you left me to die. And he's like, what did you expect?

You bullied me throughout my entire child. When I first met you, the first thing you did was punch me in the face. He's Kane and he's like and then but then gets to the root of it and Kane's like I did it like I was abused but you know he knows you he knows and Xavier knows I know you're abused by your father's like well why did you um you used your uh you know you used your telepathy to get a one up on me and to get advantage he's like and like just like you used your freakish size and strength against me and it's like then and it gets to the issue of my father loved you more than he loved me and I and I got to be it for it and then Xavier reveals to him your father abused me as well as well. well and then in which he yeah kate had no idea of that and he's like whole he's like oh shit and ironically enough it's funny because i think there was a fire in the in the house or something and kane's father dies saving um he saves xavier from that and that and that kills them um but when they're talking about this Xavier concedes and he's like okay i'll let you go go take a jet north star will drive we'll send you up there uh and then

And he's like, okay, thank you. Then he asks him, why didn't you use your powers to stop my father? And then Xavier asked him, why didn't you use your strength to stop him? And Kane says him, I thought I deserved it for, I thought, I thought, I deserved it. And then he's like, well, I think we were both wrong. That's something we can agree on. And then we see North Star taking Kane to- Can I break in there real quick before you get North Star?

So what we're seeing there is, is you have two kids, being abused and in some ways isolated in the shame of that abuse to draw back on Gene Graids talk about the shame of the deer and and they're feeling isolated in that and there's like a prismatic effect happening in that household of I saw things this way yes you were the object of my jealousy and then the other one was I saw things this way and your expression of your frustration was taken out on me. Me. And neither of them really saw the person who was actually perpetrating the abuse on them.

Exactly. As doing it to the other guy. So they both felt teamed up on by their abuser and their stepbrother. Yes. Which is, I mean, good luck mending those fences, especially when juggernaut keeps walking through them. But I do find it interesting, though, that like, okay, we know that mutations tend to to happen right around puberty.

Yes. And so Xavier's mutation makes sense. He knew about it and stuff like, or like, why didn't, you know, I figured out you had that. that, why didn't you do it at that time? But Juggernaut didn't get that power until he was in his 20s. So was he just naturally stronger anyway? He was naturally, he was a naturally big kid.

Okay. He was, he was built like this kid was big. He was like, yeah. Er, you could have done something. But also when you're, you're being abused, that fear, right? like a dog being tied to a tree or a horse, a horse rather, tied to a tree then you let them go.

They're still tied to nothing. Yeah. And again, like a kid to swing on his dad, that's, we know about those stories because they're notable. Exactly. Like, that is not the norm. It is so super rare.

You know, there's a quote that Jim Cornett said about Vince McMahon and Donald Trump, if both of their dads had hugged them a little bit more a whole lot of people would have had a whole lot of easier life. Jesus, broken clock, baby. Jim Cornett, the broken clock. Hey. Yeah.

So, okay, so North Star, whom I absolutely love because of how his power interacts with his sisters. The second they touch each other, it just neuters both of them. And both their powers are basically speed and light-based, I think. Yep. And North Star also has the advantage. And, Ed, you remember this from your research. on the queer coding

well North Star that is gay but just the this guy's super wealthy and has a world of privilege despite being a mutant and so when he's talking to Ioli yeah he's talking to Ioli oh yeah yeah Ioli kind of calls him out on he's like you have no idea what it's like he's like

excuse me I'm gay I mean he's like you are handsome you are rich you are this you can pass and so I do think it's interesting that North Star becomes the conduit. It makes sense. Speed, wealth, that'll get around all kinds of extradition.

So I'm sure if Jimmy and Jay Uso new North Star, they'd actually be able to wrestle in Canada. Intergeny match with him and his sister. So, okay, so,

North Star comes and gets Juggernaut? He's taking him to Canada. Xavier go with him as well. It's just North Star taking, he's flying, because he's like, you can't even fly.

North Star is flying the jet that they're on to Canada and North Star is asking and here we get we get intersectionality with with a with queerness because he's North Star is talking to Juggina he's like wait what is it that you

he's like we're taking it like is everything going to open up with you and this kid and Jugginax on what he's like you take it and being around this kid all this boy or a lot is everything nothing's going he's like hey he's like whoa whoa I like women yo relax I like women man present company excluded and he's like oh

what was that what's that supposed to mean because I like men therefore I'm like you know anything like that he's like well you like you like boys don't you like no I don't like boys I like like men and he's like present company excluded and and so and so it's a nice little you know like jab back and forth

about that and I think I think he said like don't you don't worry you're not even my type and then it's a quiet for a beat and then juggerna's like so I'm in find me attractive he's like what He's like, wait, wait, what? He's like, I'm just saying, I clean up nice.

I'm not, so I'm saying, are you offended? He's like, are you upset that I don't find you attractive? And so when they get there, we see Sam, Sam was being hit by his father. He leaves. And there are these kids there picking out, those same kids before, they're picking on an old fish boy and everything like that, and they're spitting on them.

And Sam isn't the same kid. He's been with the X-Men. This kid, he takes down the, he takes down the main bully, he gets on. Matt Hughes style double underhook, takes him down, and he just starts pounding away on this kid's face to a point where other kids are trying to stop him. He pushes them away. He is pounding away

on this kid's face. And then there's like, all right, stop, stop, stop. He's like, nah, nothing stops the Juggernaut kid. And it's like, yo, this kid's different now. And so Juggernaut arrives at the, he arrives at his house and he doesn't see him there. And then he sees, oh, Kane, you're here. Oh, man.

I'm so glad you came. And I said, I'm so glad you're here. And he sees the bruises on his face. And he's like he looks at his dad. Oh, you're a dead man. Graves his dad by the arm, flings him through the house. He is going to kill his father. But he's also wrecking the house. He has to get stopped by Sam.

He's like, yo, like, you are the one causing damage here. Right. And so he was fighting Alpha Flight too. And North Star was helping him. So that Kane gives up. He's like, okay, I'm going to, I'll stop. I stop. Yeah.

He gets arrested. We then learned that I think, I'm not sure this is the first instance. but the She-Hulk is really close with the X-Men. She's their, she represents, she's represented them a lot. And so she, yeah, she, and she has, I, this is the first time I've seen it, but I'm sure it's been, no, no, no, there wasn't, it's an older issue, uh, of her talking with, um, Nightcrawler, I believe. It's an older issue.

But for this one, we see, this is where I first saw. She's there with, with Juggernaut, and he's being held in like a whole, uh, security max. Oh, sure. And he's like, okay. Like, all right, here's, here's the issue that you done. Here are your past crimes. suit, you've done this, you've done property damage of this. He's like, I paid for that.

He's like, that one I paid for. And, um, he's being held. Whoa, whoa, whoa. He's like, I'm not going to be lied on. Adjudicated, all right? Yeah. Yeah. Just real quick, the only person who's been able to stop him in his life, again, he is the

unstoppable, has been Sam and Black Tom has also like, hey, dude, let's, let's change course here. Like, those were the only two so far. I just, I find it interesting that, again, it's through, it's care bears. It's through the power of friendship that this man, who is an unstoppable force that everybody just sees as a force of nature or a force of destruction, nobody seems to have tried to befriend him. And the two people who have actually get right away to his humanity. We see that show up actually in the Deadpool, the second Deadpool movie. You get a fire fist, I think is, is that the kid's name? Yeah.

Yeah. And you got that same dynamic. Mm-hmm. So, okay. So, by the way, who's on Alpha Flight at this point? Because I always loved Alpha Flight. I think Saskatch was definitely the one that was being with him. I think it was Saskatchewan.

And I know James Hudson was because North Star takes him away. He's like, oh, yeah, by the way, thanks for telling me how your battle suit works. And he was able to disassemble. And he's like, he's like 20 miles away. Nice. But not Puck? I don't think I'm not going to come by my memory

I do not think Puck was there I ain't seen Puck in a long time unfortunately I don't know what's happened with him but he's in a he comes I've seen him he's in an X-Men run way later when I was like what are you doing here

you're okay cartwheeling um so Gene uh Jen is talking with him and he's being held in this prison and there's a there's a guard telling him you know the rhinos being held there too there's a guard telling him to uh you know

don't shut up me quiet. He's like, yeah, you told me to shut up before. And he's like, he's like, oh, shut up. He's like, yeah, what are you going to do about? Like, how are you going to make me? And then we see the rhino escape because, I believe, this is where a new juggernaut shows up. And he's attacking. And juggernaut's trying to tell the guard, like, yo, you have to stop the rhino by

his hides and penetra. But you got to shoot him through the inside. And so juggernaut, he gets free. He's able to take the rhino. He shoots him on the inside. And I think he, in this instance, he takes him down and he could go to freedom right there

and the guard's looking at him and he's like hands the gun over to the guard and goes back and goes back he's doing things differently this time so he's not taking the easy way out and I think it's during the trial where Jen shows that she's like yo look he could have he could escape but he didn't and also in talking with Jen

she's like you know she just writes him off as a criminal and he's like what do you know about me you don't know my politics you don't know how i feel about you know you you don't ask me about like how i feel like economics about class war class warfare or about uh or about gender or about gender or it's like okay now how do you think about this gender it sometimes women uh sometimes women are just better than men if you're real about it and we see that scene next because they're they're sleeping together oh i think it was acquitted there and they're they're sleeping together this is later reccon to say oh that was a scroll from it it was them it was yeah here here is where he's attacked by another

juggernaut and he's working with she Hulk to fight him down and then she wrote he he's going like head on with it and she's like yo you don't understand you keep but you're fighting like an angry kid you're so head on look around you and then he's like okay i'm gonna do this you're just doing the no no no i'm listening to you i need i'm asking for your help and so he's okay it's able to take down his new juggernaut and you see it was a kid that they got uh that was abusing animals and he's like oh the siderac got used him as a vehicle for this and he's like oh he's in a And Jurginae sees, he's just a kid. He's just an angry kid in the pirate suit as a reflection upon him.

And he's also able to get acquitted from those issues because Sam's mom comes forward and says, yo, his father was abusive. San's father was abusive. And Jorgonaut was actually, he was helping us. We got her a little bit, but he was helping us. And I never had a strength to walk away from the dad. And so we see there, okay, they get to go back to being with the X-Men. And he's running with them for a bit on some missions.

and then we see that there's someone whispering in the woods and Sam's like he's listening I feel like there's something out there and he's like there and Jurg and I said don't worry about it. There's nothing. Sam goes back and Jurg and out standing there he's like Cassidy Black Tom and so he

and then we see that this Black Tom Cassidy there's a guy named like Mastodon and there's a whole new like group of blood Brotherhood of Mutants or whatever and Juggadot is with them and they're going to attack Xavier's mansion

and we see Sam discover them and Blackthong Cassing now his mutant ability has like overtaken him so he looks like root at this point he looks like a giant like tree plant based in a lot of ways like when M-Day happened

the No More Mutants thing he kept that part of his power and so it sounds like the other stuff the what is it called it's not pyrokinetics but it's like thermokinetic so because he like charged is his shaleli, right?

Yes. And like that might have been what was holding back this mutation kind of thing, or letting it like let off. But but yeah, so Black Tom is now gruded out. Yeah, he's gruded out. And so we see him, they're going to attack Sam is the one that discovers them. And he's like, no, I'm going to stop you because I'm an ex-man. Sam's power is passive.

It's just being a fish. Yeah, he's a fish. You can swim in water and everything like that, but there's no water around him. He has no offensive ability. He has no defensive ability. Right. And Jagger Knight is trying to talk the kid down. He's like, wait, you don't understand what's going on.

I see what's going on. You're a traitor to us. And Black Tom Cassie is like, all right, well, this is taking too long. He takes all his violence and he just rips, he rips Sam, like, apart, breaking bones and just, like, grinding him up. And we see Juggernaut loses it. He has gone insane at this point. And he's talking to Sam. and Sam spits on him.

And what happened before this is that we see there's a woman, a woman that's like Nightcraw there called Nocturn, and she was actually going to go warn Xavier. Jugginaught seemingly kills her so that she couldn't warn him. He actually let her go so that she could warn him. And we find out that actually Jugginot was being a double agent here. Sam dies thinking that Jugginat had betrayed them. Whoa.

Actually, he was working for the ex. And this is around like the, I said 2000s, I think it's around like 20, 2000 I think it was this 2010s as you know it was early 2000s so for years for years Sam got Sam Pierre Tim Pierre is dead thinking that a dragon had betrayed him and jogger not here he stuck he stuck with the X-Men after this because he couldn't find out like oh no I was I was I was trying to right I was trying to prevent this and it's during the and for each he's with the X-Men a bit and he has his own series where he finds he's

there's a mutant kid that has a she can like slow things down it's her ability. So she brings, he brings her to Krakow when it was beginning. Okay. There. It's a very short run. And then when Krakawa gets started.

Can I break in before we get to Krakawa? So I just, I really want to come back. Sam gets killed. Black Tom tortures him to death. Mm-hmm. In front of Juggernaut. Yep.

That's fucking bonkers. So question for you, is this before or after World War Hulk? I think this is before. Okay, because I know in World War Hulk. Uh, Kane has to make the choice to basically. Yes. Because he's been like letting juggernaut eb from him and no longer.

And then like, he's like, this is the only way I can protect Xavier. Yep. So, okay, so this, this predates that. Yes. Man, that is. That's, that's crazy. So, okay, this kid dies. Now this is Marvel.

So I assume he's going to come back. But, well, he was. As best we know. He died. Yeah. Well, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. Yeah.

He does die. And he spits on, um, spits on juggernaut and disgust of him. So years later, he, in World War Warholocaptons, he becomes like, you know, juggernaut again. Yeah. Uh, there's a point where Colossus actually becomes, uh, juggernaut. And at this point, Colossus was when he was with the, when Juggin'at was with the X-Men, he's training with them.

And there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a giant machine where it's like a giant bench press. And they're like, oh, uh, he's like, he's like, no, uh, he's like, he's like, like, I mean, Colossus had no problem with it. He's like, oh, he's like, shut up, shut up. First of all, shut up. Hey, give me a minute. Okay. And so you see there, so when you mentioned Colossus before, they've always been kind of

tied to each other through, through feats of a strength and whatnot. And so when Krakawa starts to happen. Yeah. You come to find out like, oh, juggerna's here. And he's helping. He's one of the humans allowed on Krokoa. And you see him trying to go through this like redemption arc. And as Krakawa is like a nation.

and they're beginning to figure out how to become a nation, right? And the way they have their own, their own religion, their own way of, for lack of better word, policing, which is what the way of X was, way of X was, then I've got to find a religion, and Nykrawls leading, peacekeeping, well, peacekeeping. And so Kane is assigned to there, and Xavier, a little bit more manipulative here. He wants kind of like reports on how Kane is, like, progressing. And Nightcrawler's like, no, I'm not going to do that. You would trust them here.

I would have, I want you to have the faith in Cain. I want you to have the faith in Cain that I have like you had the faith in me. And it's a very, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a note that's said in a, in the way of X. And basically kind of, it's a strongly worded email. But yeah. Nightcrawler's polite about it because like, I'm not doing that. Right. I'm not, we're not pulling any strings about doing any shit.

that. Now doesn't Black Tom get offered a job as a place? Tom is there. Okay. Okay. Black Tom is there and he's like like security for Kokoa. And later on when Black Tom is of the right of sound mind, later on he apologized for killing Sam because I, he's like saying I wasn't in my right mind. I know in my right mind to do that. And later on people are asked like oh like it was so many comparisons to Kukkko is a certain country Israel that like oh is It's an ethno city and it's like, ethno state, no. First of all, there's no genocide here.

They're living with the land. They're respecting the land. If anything, which I don't know how people confuse this, but like, if anything, it's more like a black towns that were like, like, like, Tulsa. I was going to say. Black Wall Street, Rosewood, Seneca Village. Exactly. It's more. It's more.

The Coal was more like more aligned there. We're, okay, we're being oppressed out here. We are building our own thing here. So it's really funny how people seem to skip that, especially because it was done without violence to or especially violence upon any other, any other folks. And, you know, they gave they gave free drugs and life preserving drugs to do to everywhere around the world. We just want to be recognized as a sovereign nation. And the world said, I don't think so. But a pain being there, he's one of the few non-a-ease.

If only, yeah, if one of the few, few non-mumes that actually lives there, he might be the only one that lives there. He must have come and go. Right. But he's the only one that like that lives there. Because he's, yeah, he's there. He's, yeah, he's there. He's, everyone's allowed. You're allowed to visit.

You're allowed to come. Like, hey, you can't stay here. It's like Oregon for white people. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You can come. You just can't stay.

Whereas for black people, you can't come. You don't know. We're doing it. We're doing stuff here. Yeah. And so Xavier does talk about. And it happens in X-Men unlimited. Okay.

Xavier's talking like, I know Kane's been trying to redeem himself since what happened with the boy Sam. And him, the only, he believes in a mutant vision. He's believes in it strongly. Mm-hmm. And he's, he's here to help with that. His only ask was that when the resurrection protocol happens, he wanted to be there for when Samuel was brought back. That's the only thing that he wanted. Let me break in just a little bit here. So I just want to make sure that I understand. and also by proxy, our listeners do too. So has he forgiven Black Tom? Yes, because he, yes.

Wow. So that in itself is a hell of a lot of growth for a man who was so angry for so long. Like to be able to forgive a guy who said I wasn't in my right mind instead of just saying, I don't give a shit you killed a kid, which is a very under. understandable stance to take as well to actually forgive the guy and then get along with him again and rebuild that friendship. That's quite something. Like you pointed out before with their friendship too, because if Black Tom was really that kind of villain, he's like, oh, I killed it, whatever. He's like, no, no, you, and we do grimy shit. I ain't out here, I ain't trying to kill women

or children like that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's different, not that type of villain. So, so then, real quick, you said the resurrection protocol. Can you please unpack what that is? So the Resurrection Protocol is how the X-Men circumvented death. It actually makes sense because you've seen the X-Men comic book. Gene Gray died like, what, 14 times and always came back. Here with Jonathan Hickman, I think Cabela Razz was on Art for this. What they did was create a unit to bring mutants back from the dead. And it consisted of five mutants.

You had Hope, Summers, as the conduit for it. You had Proteus who can. Real quick. She was the first mutant who had her powers obviate after Wanda did the No More Mutants thing. The first mutant born after. That's what was. Yes. And that's the whole reason that the AVX happened.

Well, she's the catalyst for it. She's not the reason. The catalyst for it. And she's the reason that you come back. Yeah. The reason is Cyclops and Cap. But, but, yeah, hope is really, really important to that. So she's the conduit for this.

Wow. Okay. And he said proteus. proteus, Tempora, who it can control time. And then, because it's a five,

I'm going to be missing one, but the most important one, I think, is, for lack of, he doesn't have a great nickname, but gold balls. It's his,

and his power is creating gold balls. What I thought was brilliant with this, is what Hickman did here is, do you find out they're not really gold balls, they're embryos? he's creating. Oh. So, yeah.

So, like, so basically this is what that, that power is what they, and what they grow, do is they back up everybody's consciousness to a certain point in cerebral. Mm-hmm. And when, all right, you die. Basically, we create a clone of you from here, from here. And, uh, and they do that with Mr. Sinister. They, they're working with Sinister here, which is going to come back to bite him in the ass. But he's a, you know, he's a brilliant, I mean, geneticist, crazy, brilliant.

Yeah. biophysicist and geneticist. So he has DNA samples for everybody. So, all right, we take that DNA sample. We put an embryo. We age it up to you. Hope is keeping everybody's powers in unison. And you come out of that egg.

And then Xavier is usually there to greet you and give you back the memories of the last thing you remember. Of that save point. Okay. Yeah. Of your consciousness. Just so you know, it's elixir and. egg were the elixir elixir yes um so those those are the five and there's a protocol to bring back any one of the five in case they are in case any one of them is compromised let's say it's um

let's say it you need hope hope is one that keeps like the she's a tuning fork for everybody right so she goes down there's a meaning mimic that could step in but he wasn't he had the pressure is too much wrong but sync is able to step in as well and he's the one that helps bring her back and if you think about it sink host summers is really just uh a red-headed sink man I'm like I can't I can't get past it I can't I cannot get past it I'm like she I'm like she's supposed to probably be Gene Gray when he came back I'm like you can you get a with sync thing okay but I but it's sync steps in to bring her back so there's always they always have these protocols and so they're bringing they're bringing back

every they're bringing back every mutant that was lost every single mutant that was killed that's the bring back means that were killed mutants that lost their powers to go through a different thing called the crucible, but that's, that's different. Now, real quick, sync is, he's the one that, um, he almost has like similar to Caliban powers in that he will be able to tell when there's somebody nearby. And then he hooks up with them. Or, if he's, uh, if he's around, he can use your power better than you can. Oh, that's sensibility.

So he's like Gideon was. Yeah, he's a, he's almost like a better version of you. Yeah. Back in, when they were in Generation X together, chamber who had his, has some of scienstable. his face half his jaw and his throat was blown off from it and you see like that burning energy sink is the one that finds out that you can fly and so he because he takes he uses he sinks up with chambers he sings up with chambers ability and uses it to fly and chambers like well that just made me more depressed because I didn't know I could too bad and I don't I don't

know if we ever see him maybe we do but I don't know if he's learned to manipulate that way to fly yet okay so that's sink yeah things are better and we saw him do it with Forrest too because he had Ford's come and check his work when he was sitting up to Seneca Treehouse and Ford was like, he's like, I like the compliment, but I'm not a better what he said? I'm not a better me than you are. And so like the way he phrased it was so wild.

But yeah, it was a cold line. And sync was saying like, hey, I know Magneto can drop a metal core into the middle of a planet and stuff like that. But on days like this, I think Ford is probably one of the most powerful mutants on the planet and did all this stuff together. but that's the way they circumvented death having though five and so Sam comes back Jugger Night is there to greet him and he's trying to remember he's like the last day I remember he's like oh he's like he came you're here he's like yeah and he's and he is just apologizing to

this kid he's just apologizing telling him what happened and uh and he's crying he is crying and so it's like it's it's this whole redemption for juggernaided and this is over a span of oh my god It was like 10, 20, 20, 20 years, 20 years maybe. 20 years in issues time, not in the actual world. I mean, because Kukoa happened in 2019. This is like, it's, we're getting over like 15. It is definitely like over like at least, I got to say at least over 15. Because if it's early 2000s and not 20 times like I'm thinking, it was, it's got to be like at least like 15.

Like this. And I was waiting for this. I, this only always been wanting for such a long time. And then we see the fall of Krakawa happen, and Jugginaud is still there helping preserve Kukoa and then fighting on Cyclopsis XMint team. And the big culmination with this is there's fighting these guys that are turning to 3000. That 3000,000, 3,000 K, I think they're turning humans into mutants. And we see them fighting the X-Men. And they're like, why are you, why are you even doing this, Kane?

You're not even a, you're not even a mutant. why are you doing this? And Kane's saying like, yeah, I keep him told that. And I, but I am here to stand beside that I don't care of it's not my fight. It's a fight we're fighting for. And that's been his stance. And he's, and in that X-Men run, the current X-Men run, that's, who's, is it Jeremy Adams? Not run. Jeff. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to mess up his name. I don't know creators, so it's okay. It's, it's, it's, uh, Jed, Jed, Jed McKay, Jed McKay, Jed McKay. He's been happening, it's been something that's happening a lot in that issue where

Juggernaut has been saying, because he kills one guy, a mutant, he killed, Jargonaut kills a mutant because he tells him they're attacking and the mutant goes for a quitting choir because he's told to kill him. Jargonaut knocks him back and he tells him, you lay a finger on him, I will kill you. And he's like, oh, Jargonaut. And he's like, you're not big as bad as people say. You're soft. Now, he didn't really, as long as he used to be, he slashes, quitting, choirs back, juggerna, he is true to his word.

And then when Iliano rescuing is saying, okay, let's go. He's like, oh, just one second, one second. He's like, what are you doing? He's like, I told him what happened if he touched, if he touched my teammate, I told him what would happen. And you see, he killed, he killed him. And Hank McCoy had an issue with that. He's like, what are you teaching these new recruits? You know, the kids like, what do you mean when I'm teaching them?

Like, have you been outside? and Hank McCoy had not been in the field because this Hank is a clone from the original Hank that turned into Dick Cheney with the war crimes. So this beast only knows, this piece is from the West Coast Avengers era and he's been basically playing catch up. And he's like, this is

you know, he's like, yo, this is the, like, there's a war going on outside. I don't know if you know that, but like, shit is a real rap raw right now. I'm out there on the field. Like, right. And some people, some people, you cannot turn. And beast is like, well, good thing we never what if we had killed you?

busy saying, like, what if we never gave you the chance to, you know, to turn to good? And Juggina's like, if they ain't, if they ain't turned by now, they were never going to at this point. You know what I'm saying? So, like, killing, that's, this is what it means to be an X-Man. Killing comes with the job. And I do agree with him because I don't think, it's a demonstration here where we see, X-Men are not, they're, we call them superheroes. Yeah, they'll go, they'll go fight, well, fighting for a world that fear of them hates us.

Yeah, they go and do that. at the root of it, they're not like Spider-Man. They're not like speedball. They're not like these other heroes were Spider-Man. Oh, yeah, I'm going to go stop this purse snatcher. I'm going to go rescue this bike thing. I'm being the bad guy, hand him over to the police. X-Men, I'm fighting for the right to live.

I'm fighting for the right for my people to exist. And you are actively, you are, this isn't some villain thing, oh, a bank robbery and we're shooting to get away. You are actually trying to kill me and people. like me because you think we should not exist, you got to go. Yeah, it's a very different struggle. There is no change. Yeah.

Sorry, there's a, there's an element of revolutionary motivation. They are, you know, when the line is, you know, we fight to, you know, fight to protect a world that fears and hates us. their goal in that the the the ultimate policy goal they have to to borrow a term from from von klausvitz is they are trying to make a place for themselves and tear down they are they are acting to tear down systems yes whereas spider man is acting within the system yes he's he's outside of it but he's working to uphold the values of the system, whereas the X-Men, just by their nature, are intrinsically against the system as a thing. Or other way around, the system is against them.

Well, yeah. I would say the difference between Spider-Man being a hero and any of the X-Men, minus beast, being a hero, is... So, friend of the show, Dr. Gabriel Cruz, has... I have him in one of our bumpers saying, Beast is a wonderful moral compass because you just look and go, oh, where's Beast? I don't want to be there.

Yeah, I'm over here. Yeah. I'll be standing over here. Yeah. But so with the exception of Beast, the mutants, their fight is for their survival and their existence. Yes. Spider-Man, his existence is assumed. Yep.

And therefore he gets to fight for principles. Yep. And I think that those are distinctly different. Like one is you can opt out at any point. I understand you feel compelled to do it because you violated your own principles a couple times. But that's different than if you step away from being Spider-Man, nobody's coming to your house to kill you. Whereas the mutants, it's existence precedes essence. Every time.

Yeah. Every time. And just like when I compared the Krakola to like those black towns, every time they have come for them. Orchus was the organization here, which was made up of parts of AIM,

maybe parts of shield that have fallen out, the Nazi parts. Modoc was part of it at something at some point. Yeah, yeah. All of them got together

to like, all right, well, fuck these mutants. And again, another X-Men go through a genocide like every, every four to five years.

Yeah. If you look at it, I'm somewhat exaggerating. I'm exaggerating. If you look at it, a massacre and a genocide, Like, yeah, it's not. It becomes like an assembly line of trauma at this point,

which is why people love Quicola so much because, oh, we've gotten away from that. What does that look like when mutants get to flourish? And you had mentioned, you mentioned, oh, damn, no, damn. Within, oh, yeah. So Orchus was the one trying to take them down and they attacked them on, they attacked them on their own soil. And we see this new, we saw the most diverse X-Men cast assemble, because they had their yearly

that the yearly vote. All right, these are going to be X-Man. Kane Marco was on the X-Men. And he was voted on. I think there's been a human on there before, but it was different. But like it's... So Kerkowah has its own affirmative action then.

Yeah, yeah. And they're like, yo, he earned it. A lot of fans were like, I was like, nah, K, 15 years, because there's a poet, Mahogany Brown. And she has this line where she says, I was confusing I was confusing allies for accomplices

Allies they'll post the they'll post the Black Square they'll you know the tweet this thing out which is to say like you know online That's not nothing

Exactly that is a thing However some performative right You know where someone's being performative of a thing like oh I was supposed to think like oh just for whatever as opposed to an accomplice who gets in front of the harm

for you to protect you. So we talking about allies and stuff like that. Jogganat was no longer like an ally. The man, he's been an accomplice from jump with the X-Men. And there's an issue coming out now where it's like, okay, it's been, it's been X amount of years of him doing

this. And it's in his fight, is he going to continue? Is he going to, or is it going to be changed? So we're, that's that issue should be out this month. But even in Krakola, we saw him, we saw him fighting the fight and he was chained up and

Kitty Pride had to come and rescue him, you saw him chained up to Scott Summers who had his eyes stitched shut, and his back was freaking broken because of a sneak attack. And if Juggerna, if he moved and went forward, then it would choke it would choke Cyclops.

And if he tried to remember, I think there was also a bomb. There was also a bomb in the college too. So he, and Wow. Juggerna didn't know. He didn't know who was behind him. And he's like, but I know, all I know is I'm connected to somebody and if I move, they die. And they didn't realize it was Cyclops.

and in fight during that war where they were fighting with orcus where we see like oh this is the you know the fall of x and everything like that where sink is leading a team and we see that um miss marvel is a mutant now my biggest question was okay okay miss marvel's a mutant now is this kamala conchis yeah kamala con okay okay and she's you know because oh she's a mutant she's both mutant and human okay okay sure all right my we didn't we didn't see an answer but her you were this is a war right now. This isn't, this isn't, again, this isn't like, Miss Marvel. Like, you got to be superhero, you get to stop the bad guys. I don't know. Okay, you're a mutant. You're an inhuman. Right. That's fine. You're a mutant now. And we're fighting a war. Is she going to kill? Are you willing to kill for this? Right. And we see her say, she, there's a point where she, they, these were breaking like the fourth wall. They kept her kind of away from that. And she didn't want any needless killing was her thing uh was her thing and i thought and i thought that was that you're you're playing it you're playing it safe you're playing it red the needle because again if we're

if we're in the and she there was it was it was miss marvel it was uh wolverine laur kynne or kinney and it was a shadow cat who was kitty was going around she was killing killing and uh and sink leaning them and but we didn't the team felt kind of neutered there we knew kitty was out of they're wilding but doing what needed to be done. Because we saw it with her when the portals went down and, you know, the fall of X, the portals go down, the meetings go and they're scattered everywhere. And Kitty can finally use a portal now. So she has to kill to keep the secret.

And Ironic love it was an Israel portal where she did that. And she killed, she killed the guards. And she kills one, she comes up to one guard. And this guard was saved by the X-Men. Scott Summer specifically, he's there. And he says, okay, this Orchus group is out here and they're stranded in. they're stranded in orbit. We're going to save them

because we show our enemies that we are better than they are, even though they hate us. And that same dude is there. And he's telling me, wait, no, no, no, no. The X-Men saved me. The X-Men save me from space.

And she goes, yeah, the X-Men save people. But you killed the X-Men. Franks dude's neck. And so that, like, going back to what Juggernaut had said about like, yo, there is a war going on outside. You want to get everybody a chance. You got to believe in the, it's in the X-Men 97 episode that aired this week as well,

you got to believe people when they believe people when they show you who they really are you have to believe them right and there is like oh there's a chance for yeah everyone has a chance for redemption yeah if they're not cashing in that token yeah what are we doing right now right now exactly yeah yeah because you could have stopped before that you could have any you could have had a change of heart at any time before this you did not at this point you're trying to you're going you're willing to die on that hill right here hey we can bury you right there then And that's the reality of being an X-Men. You're a freedom fighter.

Right. I was going to say, do you think it's fair to characterize the difference between the X-Men and other superheroes, for lack of a better word, as where somebody like Captain America or, and it's funny that I'm using Captain America as the example, but where Captain America and Spider-Man act within their milieu as. superheroes, the X-Men are soldiers. Yes. Yes. And I believe that I'm thinking that I had a whole thing about it. I can remember it. Cyclops is the first, Cyclops is the first mutant child mutant soldier.

That by that by extension means that Charles Xavier has been creating child soldiers. Yeah. You know. Stephanie Williams made the joke about that. she's the writer for DC. To me, she was the first person that, like, threw that out there. And, like, you know, it's kind of a joke, but like, I ain't really joking. Right, right.

Like, if we're, if we're, if we're being real about it. Yeah. Yeah, if we're being real about it, yeah. And Cyclops was the first X-Man. He's the first. And also, I, when it's fictional, I'm with it. Actual child soldiers, hey, well, whoa, whoa, well, in fiction, I'm kind of with it. But also, we saw where, because we talked about Xavier, you know, the vision,

you're fighting for this. finding what you said with a you know captain american spider man um ain't no way or ain't if there was a better way i wish we could find one yeah but they keep bringing this other way to our doorstep exactly so it's one thing we're not going to their house they're coming to our house ours they're on our porch like it reminds me of that scene in rosewood uh yes where don chiedel i think it's don't you know yeah he's he plays one of the main characters um where he uh like he shows up at his own door with a shotgun yeah yeah and and people like what are you doing he's like this our house yeah what do you think i'm doing you guys there and take this like what do you expect yeah yeah

and it's funny in seeing xavier's where if you really break it down because Xavier's been like in the comics he's got to grow into like this manipulative manipulative person but you can also see manipulations early on, especially in when we talk about in a giant-sized X-Men, where he talks to Storm and he's like, oh, you think you're a God, you're not a God, you're immune, come with me to do my cause, might you be doing some real good with me from my cause? And they talked about that recently in X-Men Red before Co-Feld. He's like, you know, you did, and it turns out Storm is the God. People pray to her and she gets stronger. Like, oh, no, no, you deny me. And then they, they they had that.

This is what nearly over. That was 1975 or 30 years, years later. They're finally having that talk about you came to me and tell me that I am, not less, but like telling me that I wasn't what I believed to myself to be for your cause. I was doing fine here in average. I was doing here in Kenya,

giving people rain and whatnot. And, you know, I was helping people here. But oh, no, no, no, no, no. Come help me on my thing. And I went. And if you look at like Xavier's, okay, we're going to help them. We're going to help these humans that hate us.

In a way, it is kind of respectability politics because, oh, look, we're good ones. We're good ones. And you've got a very, you got a nice cast of, you know, very white looking, you know, all of those. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, when we look at, when your foreigners are Canadian. Exactly. You know.

Exactly. And the Japanese one dies off pretty quick or leaves pretty quick. No, he left. He was like, yeah, he was sometimes like, I'm not with it. And,

but it's funny because that, it's funny because that, that run is, um, the Claremont run, it's, that revived X-Men. Because X-Men,

we were cool, but like, in 75, when he had that diverse cast, diversity was saved them. Yes. It's so ironic enough. It brought them.

Well, because it was 75, too. So like, it's, it's one of those things of like, in 1975, having, uh,

a Japanese hero, for our short, having a Native American hero, having an African hero so everybody else gets a smaller area she gets a whole continent but like having these heroes you

you are diversifying what was previously a everybody passed for white cast yes Scott Summers all he had to do is put on glasses all Angel had to do was to you know hide his wings with them toes

everybody everybody was able to hide Beast, I mean, if he looked at him, he was kind of, he's just a, maybe just a big dude. He could be a pro wrestler, you know, it's like, it's one of those things. You know, he could be the, the French Flying Angel. I always like Scott because, because his ability, all right, it's red shades, but or the visor. Yeah. It's almost like, because.

Ruby quartz. It's funny, glasses have become, my friend Homer, Nicole Homer, putting this out, like, glasses have become a fashionable thing. But it is, it is a disability. Like, you can't, it's, you can't, you can't. You can't see, bro. And so even though Scott's, the red shade, oh, he's guys being cool in the night,

but like it's still, it was always something visible. Yes. Wait a minute. What's going on here? Well, and then they could, they could assume less about him as a result.

Exactly. I actually just got, I just got glasses this year. I think, and I want to say in March, was it, Ed? But, yeah, I got, I got glasses in March. And I, I posted on social media. I said, I am now a cyborg.

I've come over I've come over you know but but yeah so you had mutants who passed for human which there's all kinds of metaphors you know

pass for white pass for straight pick your poison but they could pass and now in Giant says X-Men there wasn't as much they could pass for because Wolverine

was really hairy and strangely shaped. Short. Yeah. And then you had somebody who was black, someone who was Japanese, someone who's Native American. So now they're undeniably

slightly different than the norm. In 1975, that's an important piece to add in there. But I love that there's a revisitation where she's calling him out because Storm was a fucking leader, dude. Like she, when she lost her power, she led.

Like, it's insane how badass she was. She's actually part of one of my absolute favorite comics of all time was her and Tchalla breaking up as they're fighting in AVX. Because if you remember, they had the box text. It was purple for him and it was yellow for her. And just the parallels, it was heartbreaking. Maybe this would be better if we had children. Oh, man, thank God we didn't have children because of the end.

One thing's for sure, I never should have married her. One thing's for sure. always love him. And it's like, oh, my God, my heart breaks. Like, so, but anyway, that, that just, that twigged my memory on that. But so she's calling out Xavier for saying, basically, you sublimated what I had to your cause. And he's, I will say, I will maintain, he's always been a creep. He's always been a bit, he's always been a bit, he's always been more than a bit manipulative, but he's always been at least a little bit of a creep. In, in the very early issues, he was thinking to himself about Gene Gray

who was 16 Yep and it was for him it was the wheelchair that was the problem not that he's her teacher She's a 16 year old or or or like It's just like god damn The 60s were You know the Green Lantern

Lantern Arisha where she aged herself up To be with how George like hey Yeah well I don't know what y'all are on back Yeah Y'all are wild You're like, yo, the Coke was Coke and okay. Jesus. My God.

Relax. Yeah. Whoa. Okay. So she's calling out Xavier for manipulating her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this is after Magneto dies when they're trying to fight this eternal Uranus, or Uranus.

He's the grandfather of Thanos. And it was during averse, Aver, Avenger's for that. X-Men versus externals. He attacks Iraqo. And so, like, all right, we're going to use this. We're going to use this. They're trying to defeat him. Magneto, they use a mutant circuit to break through to him.

And Magneto dies. And Xavier wanted to know, like, what his last words were, like, what message he had for him. And the message is Fort Miss meant for Storm. She's like, yo, look at. She's like, watch out for Xavier because he's a good man. And there's nothing a good man won't sacrifice. to like to keep the moral whatever translation this dude will do anything to appease the human

bro he will he will he will sell us out to appease human his morality is his morality and his justification of the morality is his weakest point and Xavier's trying to find out what his what his Magneto's last words were and he was trying to force it out of Storm's mind and she uses the red triangle technique to reject him which is a technique he had taught the X-Men to push out a psychic attack,

a teletopic attack. And that's where the conversation comes up. And then they're, they, you know, they had the moment where they're talking. And then she tells him, never come to O'Raco again. You were a bad from here.

Like, we're never going to speak again. And never come to a rocko again. We're not going to, we're not going to rock. Even though she was helping to defend him when Cyclops is going to try and get him to bring him in during X-Man hunt, where if I'm like, it'd be nice that there was some kind of new, some section here,

but like, the, the continuity of, of relationships and the, intertwined, intertangled everything in X-Men, really sometimes when I, when I listen to people talking about it, I feel like I'm listening to a summary of,

days of our lives since 19. someone watching their shows. I knew. Like, yeah. Like, yeah. It is.

Oh my God. Like, how many times is this one lady going to be possessed by the devil? Right. You know,

and, and when I say that, you don't know if I'm talking about the comics or days of our lives. Because both of them have used the same storyline.

Yeah. Yeah. I was actually talking about days of our lives, but I realized as I was saying, it's like, yeah. And example.

So, yeah. Okay, so back to Juggernaut. So he is, he has worked his way toward being an accomplice. Yes, he has worked his way toward being so much so that he was on a, he was on a mission with the X-Men, Cyclops' current X-Men team, because there's X-Men New Orleans, are led by Rogue, there's X-Men, now it's United X-Men. They've all come together before. It was, they were being led by Emma Frost and Kitty Pride. There were new kids. That was exceptional X-Men, written by Eve Ewing. That was taking place in Chicago.

Roach's team was New Orleans. Scott's team is over in Alaska, and his team consists of Glob, who just, he must be the shopkeeper. He just stays home and he cooks. He's a really good, you find out he's a really, really good cook. Magneto, but Magneto's going through some kind of issue

from the resurrection protocols, but it only affected him. And they're saying, like, wait a minute, we went to the future. This wasn't a thing there. What's going on? But whatever. So it's Magneto, Quint Inquirer.

She's changed Oya, who has now changed her name to temper. Two new mutants, there were humans turned into mutants by that 3,000 organization. Hank McCoy, who is catching up because he is a clone copy from the West Coast Avengers that the war criminal Hank McCoy left. What happened to war criminal Hank McCoy? War criminal Hank McCoy, I believe he killed him. He sacrificed himself to stop this thing, even though this dude had a bunch of, He cloned a bunch of Wolverines to be mindless killing machines for him. It was wild.

It was wild. And they found this copy of him. But now we've seen the, we've seen the alternate timeline beast, that was dark beast, where he's here. And he's talking to because of the alternate university, whatever, he came back. He's talking to the pure beast, the peer beast now is talking with him. And so he's on the team as well as. is Ileana Rasputin and Juggerna.

And so they're talking and the SACCol's like, all right, you guys read the briefing, the debrief. And it's Juggernaut that's like, oh, these guys, what we know about them is 3K, they have this mission, they have this mission. We know that they're going to penetrate this. And we know we're going here. And Cyclops is like, Kane, he's like, you know, basically says that you have no idea how proud I am of you

and like how far you've come. And you see magic. Iliana's on the side like, teachers pet. And so they, you see them keep battling it out. So in, even being on his team, you see the relationship he has with all these other teammates as well. Too, Juggling that's a fun guy. And you see him like, okay, they have a, they have this marauder ship that flies. And they have a cannon for him to get in.

And so you see him fist bump and temper as he gets put into this cannon. And then they charge up the powers to launch him to shoot him like a bullet. he's always going back and forth with magic and they're like, okay, drop point, who's the team drop point, you guys go in first and you see Magic and Juggernaut doing rock paper scissors, but they both keep choosing rock

and they're like, well, I want to be the drop point. I want to, yeah, I want to be the first. And like, okay, then they were doing rock paper scissors for it. You keep choosing rock, like, yeah, because only what, who's going to whip out and choose paper, exactly? I'm not going to do it, I'm not going. And Cyclops is like, can you, can y'all go? Like, I find, we'll both go.

We'll both go. And you see them like have a very like it's a very cute relationship that they have. And you see Juergen has become like a very a team oriented person. He has these interpersonal relationships with all these members. But then you see like the clash with like with Beast like we talked about where he's like yeah, I will like dog. I told dude what would happen. Yeah, I killed him. That's the game right now.

They are all trying to kill. He hasn't. That's the first one. And that's issue like number 20 something maybe. high 20 something he hasn't been killing he has not been killing he gave that dude to want and that dude tried to kill he tried to kill quentin choir he's damn near slashes spleen out like i told you what would happen you're calling me a liar and like and so and you could see i made a contract with you yeah i told you what i defied the terms yeah yes i gave you a chance

to stop that's the most and see i really i really want to come back to that actually, as funny as this sounds to me, but I gave you a chance to stop. You did not have to die through this. If you wanted to die on this hill, I told you that you would. And you chose to try to get away with not dying on this hill. Yeah. Like there's, again, we get back to that existential part, right? Like, I will kill you to stop you from killing somebody. Yes. Yeah. Don't kill somebody, and we have no quarrel. Go away. and they didn't. And so, yeah, he kills a guy.

And leave it to Beast. Yeah, that conversation with Beast over that as well. And now we're going to, the latest issue, we'll see. I hope they don't undo that. I hope they're not going to traitor them or leave the team because there's so much work and having been done with him to get to this point. And I enjoy him so much. And it's such a, and they're one of their greatest enemies having turned to.

become one of their greatest accomplishment and accomplices. And you could even almost say it about apocalypse as well, because a lot of folks were, when they had them there and their reformer cocoa, a lot of people like, well, how are you going to forgive all these things? You know, these people that's horrible things they've done. We talk about rehabilitation and reconciliation and restorative justice. If we're going to do, if we're going to take these steps, the step has to be taken. Okay, we're forming a nation now.

It's a nation for mutants. it can't just be oh for who we deem to be the good ones it has to be for everyone we're giving everybody a clean slate here yeah and someone that has gone through a huge transformation because of that was apocalypse as well because apocalypse comes there and it's like this is all this is all I wanted from for me this is what I was always pushing for I I can see I will obey your laws I will concede to your I can see to your rule apocalypse doing that right there again And all your big enemies coming and all right, we're going to give this a chance, which is what made it different than Genosha, made it different than Utopia.

We've made it different than Xavier School for learning, Gene Gray School for learning Magnetos. Mediore or whatever. Asteroid M. Yeah, yeah. That's what was. We are all together as one finally. And then seeing Iraqo as well.

And now we're, okay, we have Iraqo, which were the people. the second wave of a of mutants that uh that apocalypse was with and he knew them which is why he knew the land we have now we have two societies and i love rock because of the the black and black coated mutants okay these are these all they know is war this is the hood we are the suburbs we can not get along we will give them their own space and they're and they're wondering they're like why have you taken over earth yet what the fuck like they have their own set of rules it was just kind of a mirror to theirs, but the irony of them is being like,

oh, we are a nation. We've gone through all this. You guys, you guys are a nation trying to, like, you look like a deer trying to walk for the first time to us. So we're going to go, we'll go here on Mars. We'll be up there, but like y'all, you have so much, you have so

much further to go to do, to be, to you are actually a nation. And we saw too early the cracks of that. But like, it was such a big transformation for for these villains to stop being well because apical is always incredible but like okay survival of the fittest there's only so much like there's only so much you can do that so it's like why are you doing what you're doing juggling out attacking Xavier okay well let's when do when do we

grow okay there's only stale when they stop growing where you become one known and predictable oh wow look at all these different branches that everybody has gone uh has that's gotten to uh experience now and especially and seeing like yeah so that that was my my favorite thing of, especially the Apocalypse, but like, of King Marco and remembering the work he'd done all those years prior to as well. And Sim's still being that person, still in him working with kids. And he's like, all right, well, I got a place that you can go to. And then being on Uncle Coe, the only mutant allowed there and the only non-mutant allowed there. And then making the team.

And then making the team, being voted from the mutants there that you get to make the team. It was, it was beautiful. And then even after that, still, he was, he was, he was, he was careful. literally carrying Kakoa on his back, trying to lead it to safety being attacked by Orkis before he was captured. And then joint, and then when he's captured, he, could he probably frees him,

she has to keep Cyclops there. But he, and he goes, he goes, and he joins Sinks team. He joins the fight. And what's the fight? We are fighting against Orkus. And we might, I think, I don't think, I do not think that,

because I mentioned Kamala Khan killing for, and to answer your question before you, is it fair? The X-Men have to, that the X-Men have to do they're put in this position as opposed to Captain America and Spider-Man I think Captain America

because he's been to war it's us and my man like and also going to somebody like political thrillers he knows what it is to take a life to fight for you know you're fighting for the good cause he understands that and X-Men being put it's kind of like we're being presented as

as ambassadors to us nah you're you are soldiers and this this is your war for us Spider-Man my man Spider-Man is not Spider-Man has never gone to war. You get to just operating on your moral compass out, which is fine. Totally fine.

And you'll never kill and you'll never try to. Why would you even need to? Unless they cross the line going to like your personal family or something like that, which we're seeing heroes do. But to me, the X-Men are in such a unique position where if it isn't as simple as stopping a bank robbery, stop being, it says, no, if I don't, and I'm not. say again, I'm not saying to kill every, you know, right, right. But if I don't

fight for my life, I don't fight for my life. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. If I, you know, there's a difference between like, oh, you think you're an extremist, I, I thwart your plan and versus, oh, you are, I am, I'm going to shoot you and kill every meeting that I can. All right, then let's see how this plays out. You're fighting to the death, then when you don't make it out, don't be surprised or don't come with the, oh, have mercy,

mercy, mercy. Nah, nah, you sign right here, verbal agreement, baby, we should hands on this. And again, we get back to contract law. Yeah, exactly. We defined. You signed this. Yeah, we defined the terms of delivery at the beginning of our conversation 15 pages ago. Yeah.

And you want to switch up now? Yeah. You read the Carfax. Where would that, where would this energy be if you had me under the gun? Like. Exactly. You know? Exactly.

So. So let me, as, as we're winding down, let me ask. you this. Two different, two different sides to the same question. Yes. Where do you think it will go? Well, three different sides. Where do you think it will go? Where do you hope it will go? And where do you dread it going? This arc of juggernaut. And feel free to to start with what you dread, then do what you think, and we'll end with your hope. I'm okay with that. Like, do how you do. Okay. What I, what I dread is, is Marvel, as we've seen them do, man.

The same issue they had with when they tried to make Cyclops the bad guy, we got revolutionary Cyclops. And people were like, no, we fuck with this. Like, what are you talking about? Right. You're trying to make the bad guy. Yeah. You're trying to make him the bad guy.

No, he makes sense. Right. The same dread I have with that is jargonaut has been making so much sense right now. My dread is that Marvel just has them go back to being the, be one note or him being like oh i'm him being like i'm fighting for your rights and anything like that and you don't appreciate it or in or him thinking like this is a hopeless battle or something like that or him being disillusioned with it and he just goes back to doing his own like do it just be going to be in the villain like what what's the point of all this is like this is a never ending thing things

are not going to change him giving up him giving up the fight is what i dread i i i'm like oh no please come on come on come on like not what i hope what i'm hoping is he has a chance uh he's given a chance i can out and easy out to maybe go back to crime or you know something more lucrative maybe or like and he and he says no and he does away with that and he's like no i am like i am for this till the end that is that is that is that is my that is my hope that that i that's what that's what i am hoping that's I'm hoping. Yeah. What was it?

It was dread hoping. What do you think is going to happen? Yeah. Likelihood. The likelihood is the dread man. I don't want it. You've seen how Marvel has moved, especially towards only now, and Eve Ewing's run of X-Men United, only now maybe a few times, a few instances back then as well, where we've seen an intersectionality

happening between race and a small conversation. It's a small, a small one, but it's there between race and being a mutant. That should have been recurring way more often. It's such a good conversation. I fear the likelihood is them running away from the conversation or running away from the good, the hard thing, which is the better thing. And I, and I, what did Jack Kirby say? Comics will break your heart, kid?

Like, you know, so I, I, I want, I am hoping that is not the case. I'll prepare a video for the day. It's sick. Because more than like, like, like you see, man, we don't. Yeah. Listen, they, they canceled Wonder Man. The Wonder Man season two is canceled. Armour Wars.

Again, Blade is, blade is canceled. Armour Wars is canceled. Uh, re, like, they didn't do a great, Captain America, Brave New World. I'm going to put an IDF soldier in here, make her captain Israel, aka Sabra. Oh, no, we won't do that, but we'll make her a sob protect their president. Why? I don't know. We'll put a Zionist in frigging Ironheart as a Nefesto.

Maybe that's kind of fitting. I don't know. And also, oh, Ironheart, y'all like it. We're not going to promote it, though, whatever. Yeah. The track record, the track record is, it is hurting. I swear they canceled like, they canceled like six things. Four of the six were black main characters.

in each of those things. We're part to you for that. We don't like, hey, but hey, Ryan Gossling's Ghost Rider, who asked for? I like Ghost Rider, but not an ass for the shit yet. Are we in the mystical part of a thing? Wait, wait, wait, wait.

I missed, I missed. Oh, there's a big thing, bro, at Comic Con. Ryan Gosling is now Ghost Rider. He's been championing that, like Channing, well, Channy Taney Taney was signed to do Gambit, never got a chance.

Ryan Gosling had wanted to do it for a very long time, and there was a, I don't want to mess his name up, but I think it was like Jim or Jake Horowitz, an interviewer that was kept like, every time he saw Figey, he was just telling him about it. I was, nothing against Ryan Gosling. I think he's probably going to be a bit. He's good in whatever he does.

Yeah. Perfectly competent. He's going to face eight. You know, there are so many other. I don't see him as Ghost Rider, though. Like of all the, the flaming skull. I mean,

well, it's going to be fine. He'll be Danny catch. It'll be great. But like, not Johnny Blaze. I think. Whoa, now that I think about it.

No, I think he could be Danny Ketch. I think he could. He's got that kind of torturedness that he can pull out. I can see that. But my point is, I think you're right. There is so much more meat on the bone in terms of, I'm just thinking like a shithead capitalist.

If I want to hit quadrants, I want to do Robbie Reyes because that'll bring in a Hispanic audience. Or I want to do, oh God, I forget her name, but she was Mesoamerican. and then you can hit women as well on that. Like you could have- I'm not the ghost writer we're talking about. Yeah, you could have so many different ghost writers

and pick up audiences that you have not really done a good job picking up, especially when you're going to drop for, again, like people that you have developed. They have having, having, uh, uh, Rody as, as the guy behind the armor wars, I thought that was fantastic. I was like, oh, cool. I want to see that, but no. And then same thing with,

it doesn't look like they're going to. And you know what? I got my one Sam Wilson movie, so I'm going to be happy with that. But I wanted more. Like, yeah, same. Without reshoots, it would be nice, right? It'd be nice.

It felt like, it felt like watching a tent tag. I was like, I could tell that I was got here. I could tell that was good. I was reached. I was like, my God. Yeah. Yeah. But like, and then they also, I feel like they,

they stopped doing anything with the Ironheart as well? Or did they go ahead with the season two? We don't know if season two is coming. There was nothing else to said about that. And they did. There is another Captain America movie coming though. For a face of it. A serpent society.

A serpent society. Good. Good. Because I liked having having, oh God, what's his name? What's that? Anthony Mackey. Yeah, well, him too. But no, the bad guy that was in there that stabbed him.

God damn it. Sidewall. Oh, John Carlos Pesito. John Carlo Esposito, yeah. Side winder. Sidewinder? Sidewinder or side swipe. Sidewinder.

It's a cat or it's a snake. That's a cat. That's a cat. What the fuck? But they did. Coffee, Damien. Yeah, no kidding. They did bring out,

they said they're going to, they brought out a new guy to play back Panther. Yes. So at least there's that. But they also canceled the Wonder Man. I'm like, that was fucking amazing. Like, it was so self-referential. And they canceled that.

So I totally understand your concern because they are, Marvel is now stepping back from doing the things that were building interest and capital with them amongst people who look different than me. And amongst comic book fans like me who are like, yeah, give me your new imagined one. I you know Simon Williams there's nothing about Simon Williams that needed him to be white so I was like cool okay you got someone different um yeah it's Haitian too I was like oh wow this is when he said mummy I was like oh wow oh yeah this is this is this is this is different and and like they they were making choices like that for quite some time that I was like excellent job cool all right keep it going and then like I mean you know making uh namor uh mesomeria

um although uh our friend uh Kevin Garcia kind of pointed out that they still fell over backward into some really fucked up tropes. Oh, yes. It's still problematic steps forward, you know, but, but, uh, but, why aren't we finding the CIA? I don't understand. Why are we fighting the trial about the CIA. What, what?

What are we doing? What are we? Hold on. Why? Yeah. Right. But like they, they, they were doing some really cool, um, bordering on brave shit.

And now they've stepped back, which is wild because I'm pretty sure the really awful owners have, have stepped aside once they sold to Marvel or once they sold to Disney. It was those guys who were running the VA at Mar-a-Lago. It's Disney in charge. And also they're moving, they got a new out of the CEO or not, but yeah,

they replace the CB McCowski guy. They're moving the offices from New York to Los Angeles now. Oh, are they? First time in what, it's been 80 years. Yeah. First time. There's going to be so much Marvel.

There's going to be so much. MCU synergy with the comics dude. There's going to be, you know it, you know it's coming. You know it's coming. So which means sanitization, unfortunately, because the comics have been able to get away with a lot of cool shit. So, so unfortunately, I echo your dread. Yeah.

Despite Juggernaut being a really fascinating character that you, honestly, your content turned me on to. I was like, oh, cool, they did neat things with him. Yes, finally. No? Yeah. So all right. Well, I think that as we're winding down, we normally plug things at the end and things that we recommend for people to read or to watch or to see. So we'll go round Robin. I will start and then I'll kick it to Ed. And then we're going to leave you with the last bit of it as far as recommendations and stuff. So I'm going to recommend. Oh, actually, Ed, I'm sorry. I'm a little out of sequence. I normally ask, Ed, what have you gleaned? I gleaned that I need to go back and reread a lot of X-Men storylines. There is a lot of, there's a lot of depth there that I think there's a lot of other stuff that we, I think, there's a lot of other stuff that we, you and I could be talking about. independently.

Yeah. Because I think that the thing that's going to stick with me is the realization that the, the position of the X-Men in relationship to heroism. Yeah. Being different. The, the, the, the relationship that they have toward the, the, the, the, the, the, the relationship that they have toward the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. social structure. On the one hand, it's kind of obvious. On the other hand, it's not something that gets an anvil dropped on it.

I was about to say, on the other hand, anvils need dropping. Yeah. You know, and the idea that their existence is more like soldiers. And, and, you know, going back and looking at some of the stuff that I, kind of, I'll admit, kind of skimmed when I was doing research for the, for the, you know, queer coding episodes that we did. Going back and looking at it with that in mind. Yeah.

I think would result in a very different kind of reading experience and, and, you know, a better, a better understanding of kind of the weight of all of that. Yeah. I mean, a different lens shows you, you know, if you're, look at things under the UV spectrum, you suddenly see that birds are very colorful, you know, and stuff like that. So, yeah, I like that. Yeah, go ahead.

And also the idea just now strikes me of taking a look at the ways that the X-Men have operated and comparing it to Shay Kavara's writing on the theory of guerrilla warfare. Write that episode, motherfucker. Once I finish my master's degree, I fucking will. When I have time and I'm acknowledged as a scholar in military history, yes, I will do that. Well, I guess being acknowledged as the scholar and military history on this podcast is just not enough of a rule. Okay. Well, no, I need, I need, damn it, I need the paper.

You need qualified people to say it. I get it. Yeah, I mean, yeah. That's fine. Cool. All right. Well, let's see.

Ed, what are you going to recommend for people to read? I'm going to very strongly recommend that people go back and find and read the Chris Claremont run of when he picked up the X-Men. Because he, like, even before I had this epiphany that shouldn't really have been an epiphany, but whatever patterns on the wallpaper. Yeah.

You know, even before that, the kinds of things that he did and the stuff he managed to like sneak into the edges of the panel, you know, both metaphorically and literally. Yes. In his writing is really, it's a masterclass. His characterization is amazing. The fact that, and I mentioned this in the episode, the fact that he wasn't afraid to make the X-Men weird. Yeah. True. You know, and, and so, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really good, it's not just good comic book writing. It's just really good writing and really good development of character. And so that's, that's my recommendation. Go back and find, like, digitally, you can find it online or, you know, go into comic book, support a local comic book store.

Get nomin. And, and buy the trade, you know, trade paperback version of, of Chris Claremont's run on X-Men. So how about you? I'm going to recommend the Ages of the X-Men, essays on the Children of the Adam in Changing Times by Joseph Dierowski. I do love a good collection of essays. And it essentially, it looks at, it does what we do. It looks at like what's going on in social concerns in the times of the writing all the way up through. Now, here's the only problem I have with it. It goes all the way up through Obama's inauguration, which means,

we are missing some really important shit that's happened since, which I would really like to see like a volume two on, but this is still, this gets you from 63 to 75, or so 63 to 70 and then from 75 to 2008. So that's not nothing. The only other thing I'm going to say is, so what I'll plug is if you're on TikTok, go to Ghost in the HTML,

I think that you'll really enjoy this. enjoy that creator's content. I know I do. But if you can't find it, then you can just look up Omar Holman, all one word, at Omar Holman on the TikTok. So those are what I'm going to recommend. Omar, what would you like to recommend? I was going to say watching watch.

I was going to say Batman Cape Crusader, because I think I'm not a, because he got Ted Cord killed. I'm not a big Batman fan, but I still, I still watch the properties and stuff like that Batman, that Batman, I'm like, I'll always have a gripe against him. But Batman, Cape Crusader, I think, I'm like, I think, is this the best animated adaptation I've ever seen of Batman? I'm like, I think so. I think Bruce Tim on and again. Yeah, I'm just, is that the that old school, 1920, 1930s feel of got them like technologies, you know, kind of there. It feels like him during his year one of his career. And he is just going to start to just develop a relationship with Gordon and seeing

Barbara Gordon as a paralegal. And we got them race bent as well. And we see the villains be gender bent like this. I'm like, this is amazing. And it's and it's gritty. Like Batman's like, some stab a dude in the shoulder. Like this is wild. So it's, yeah.

Batman was Batman Cape Grusader is insane. Keeping at X-Men, though, I would say to read the Victor LaValle's Sabretooth because there's a commentary on the prison industrial complex and the pipeline of that going through Coca-Cola because they're supposed to have no prisons, but then why is there a giant pit that we throw people into? And why are you throwing these individuals that broke the law into this pit? And you come to find out, well, they didn't really break the law.

They really kind of just, it feels like you got punished because you didn't know your place. So that Sabretooth and also, man, X-Men read from Al Uing. I think that was just, that's just, that's just, that writing was brilliant. And you see just mutants on Araco and how Magneto and Storm integrate into that culture and how they respect that culture. It's a beautiful writing on integrating and not assimilated, but integrating and into a culture and respecting it and taking upon their ways and truly like representing,

and being of the people that you were here voted to and also having those people lead to, even though you were appointed there and taking down like oligarchy and stuff. It's really, it's really, really. And also who, discovering who people are when they get out of wartime and what these people, what,

what, what peace can mean to these people, because before they didn't really know, they knew it for time and they've forgotten what it's like. And like, yeah, and in language and everything, thing. Everything about the Iraqi culture is just, it's so brilliant and it's really laid out beautifully in X-Men in X-Men Red.

Love it. Thank you. Very cool. All right, Ed, where can they find us? We can be found on our website at Wobo-Wabba-Waba.giquehistorytime.com. We can also be found, or our archive can be found on YouTube at a Geek History of Time. You can go in there, and

at this point, I'm not sure how many of our episodes we've got uploaded there, but do something around there. All right, yeah. I batch them every month, so. So if you can spare the time, go into YouTube and start that running in the background for us. Fucking mute it if you want. I don't care.

Yeah, and subscribe. And in that vein, we can also be found on the Apple podcast app, on the Amazon podcast app, and on Spotify. And wherever it is, you have found us. Please take the time to subscribe. Give us the five-star review that you know we deserve and that our awesome guests deserve, even though like they're not getting the stars we are. But never mind that.

They're awesome. So give us the reflected glory and the five stars that go with that. And Mr. Harmony, where can you be found, sir? You can find me on the first Friday of every month up here in Sacramento at the comedy spot at 9 p.m. So I'm going to assume that you'll be able to make it to the October 2nd show. If you can't, then go to the November 6th show. If you can't, then go to the December 4th show.

And I and my crew at Capital Punishment, I'll be hosting all of those three months, actually. I will be the referee, not the star. So come and watch me wear the zebra stripes and judge people's puns. It's a pun tournament, capital punishment. We've been going for this is our 11th. year now. So we have been going for longer than you've taught at the school you're at. And it's coming up on being the longest relationship I've ever had, given a couple of years. That says something about comedy, if nothing else.

But come check out, Capital Punishment, Fun Battle Wins, spin that wheel. You're going to love the show. It's a lot of fun. not local to Sacramento, then check it out online. Go to saccomedy spot.com. Find the link for the calendar event, and there is a link there for doing it digitally so you can stream it as well and watch in the comfort of your own home. Also, interestingly enough, I will be doing work for the Crocker Art Museum coming up. So I'm going to say September 10th and November 12th and December 10th. right now. There is something else coming up in September, but I just want to have that finalized. But I am a phocent, which means I'm a docent who makes shit up about art for comedic effect.

And if you come check that out, it's at each of the art mixes. I am like a Baron of Studio Baker. I am in my natural habitat there. It is phenomenal. I and Justine, my partner from the capital punishment. She and I just, oh, Oh, man, we will have you laughing at art. And then on December 10th, we'll be doing a Saturn alien event for them. So all kinds of fun. Omar, I'm going to leave it to you to plug where you're going to be, where you are, where people can find you and all that, and then we will say our goodbye.

So what you got? Oh, you can find me at, as you said, ghost and HTML on TikTok or Omar Holman, my name. You can also find me at Black Nurt Problems. We've basically redone our entire website and we've gotten more content there. So yeah, come, come see your new website and Black There Problems. You can find where I did the month. I did memes on Instagram. Carrie McLean does the blue sky and, you know, Twitter is Twitter.

You can find us, but check out the website. Yeah, Twitter's that over there. You can check out the website. Black and probably blacknet problems.com. We have a bunch of writers and people doing videos and a bunch of videos and a bunch of It's a really good talent, and we're just talking about the stuff we love. Awesome. I'm going to ask producer, George, to put blacknerd Problems.com in the description of the episode.

So that link will be there, too. Hell. Cool. Omar, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's been a blast. Awesome. For a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony.

And I'm Ed Blaylock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s.