A Geek History of Time - Episode 50 - Conan and Reagan Part IV

Episode Date: April 11, 2020

And we begin with good days, sir. Geeks come in all shapes and sizes, and that they come into all kinds of things that happen. I was thinking more about the satanic panic. By the scholar Gary Guy-Gakse. Well, wait, hold on. I said good days, sir. Not defending Roman slavery by any stretch.

No, but that's bad. Let him vote. Fuck off. When historians, and especially British historians, want to get cute, it's in there. It is not worth the journey. No. This is a geek history of time. Where we connect Nurgere to the real world.

I'm Ed Blaylock. I'm a seventh grade world history teacher here in Northern California with a two-year-old son. I teach one section of English where I try to beat proper grammar and writing style into the heads of seventh graders. It's a thankless task. Who are you? I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a high school Latin teacher up here in Northern California. And for one period a day, I also teach world history kids about world history. So I kind of take the baton from you and run with it when they're three years older and have remembered everything. I'm also the parent of children.

You're a face, you're a childish faith is inspiring. Thank you. No, it's not you take whatever. You have alcohol. I have hope. But I also have a seven and a half year old, almost an eight year old and a ten year old, whom I'm raising to be good little geeks. So that's me. All right. And if people, they're first episode, first off, they should back up by about three episodes so they get to the beginning of what you're about to tell us. Of what we're talking about, yeah. Because we've spent an awful lot of time talking about what an almighty genius Robert E. Howard was.

Yes. In the king sense of having an almighty big knife. And also we've spent at least a couple of episodes now giving you plenty of time to exercise your hate boner for Ronald Reagan. Oh, I've been, you know, still stroking. It's good. I'm going for the slow burn. So, it's a, it's a worthy, it's a worthy thing in and of itself. Thank you. But also, Ronald Reagan. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. So, but when we left off, we had actually just kind of got into the point where I'd actually started talking about the movie. Conan, in 1982 released filming in 81,

which is of course at basically the same time that Reagan had inaugurated and of course it was being filmed in the immediate wake of the Reagan campaign for the president. And we've talked a little bit about John Milius, only a little bit, but we've talked telling about what his influences work and where he was coming from. How he was kind of standout amongst his peers too You will yeah, yeah, yeah in that he would like all of them kind of had the same willingness and Glee and abusing their casts um in in what they called the author

philosophy yeah, yeah, yeah, but at the same time he was politically very different than they Oh, yeah, well, yeah, because because and you know, and now we're gonna get into analyzing some of that stuff good You know because because we left off like in the immediate moments before we left off last time I was I was kind of finishing up with with a kind of straight comparison between who Conan and the other characters were were in the books, in the stories that were actually written by Howard. And who they wind up being, what they wind up representing in Melius' version of the story.

And one of the things I wanna go back and I wanna hit on this right now at the beginning, just so it's there kind of at the forefront as we go forward is that you know Howard wrote really extensively to all the members of the Lovecraft circle But especially the Lovecraft who is as bestie about The the conflict and the dichotomy between barbarian virtue and civilized decadence and corruption. Yes.

And as we pointed out last time, there was very much a regional thing because of where he was living. Yeah. And that civilization is corruption. Yeah. Because, you know, he had seen the little West Texas town where he'd grown up turn into an overcrowded bustling place where a whole bunch of business types showed up with the oil boom and we're making money off of the labor of a bunch of rough character actors who were working

as rough necks on the oil rigs. And the background of that whole region had been built on conflict with the Native American tribes. And there had been massacres of Native Americans, massacres of settlers by Native Americans. And that's not for shittin' on stolen Mexican territory. Yeah, and the whole thing was. Excess, in vain.

Oh, well, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and the very exception was, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the whole thing, the whole thing was was a was a very guy gaxy and colonist kind of freehold thing moved Mexico take slaves with you and you know, settle because the Mexican government wants you to well, you know, now that we're here, we don't want to be Mexican anymore. Right. You know, we're, and that whole, we're a republic now. Uh, yes, they've only republic. Let's talk about the moral implications of that for a moment, assholes. But anyway, and now, and now we're going to be part of the Confederacy, which is like the fuck anyway. Sorry. I'm getting, I'm, we're getting off the subject. Sorry, I'm getting we're getting off the subject. So what we have then going on here is yeah, like you say It's a very regional thing because of course Lovecraft was descended from I mean I'd be surprised to find out the Lovecraft wasn't

Wasn't in fact a member of the Mayflower Society himself. I do a lot of direct research into Lovecraft, specifically. But, you know, he's coming from New England, which was, you know, settled by the Puritans and their whole ethos was at the time of settling that was, we're going to build God's city out of the wilderness and the forest is darkness, the forest is chaos. We're going to push that back. And so, we're going to push that back. We're going to push that back. And so, you know, we're going to push that back. We're going to we're going to inflict civilization on the world. They wouldn't have used the word inflict. That's just me editorializing. But, you know, we're we're going to bring would you use that word? Were they Catholic settlers? Yes. Okay. Good for you. Good. I'm just going to say my my intellectual honesty would would force me to do that.

My prejudice against them as massive Calvinists maybe adds to the disparity of my language in other areas. But I think the verb is apt no matter who you're talking about. I think, you know, there's certainly, there can be debate about how much of the black legend is anti-catholic propaganda. There cannot really be debate about the fact that the conquistadors inflicted civilization on every place they landed too.

So, you know, and a European vision of civilization, because of course, when they got to Mexico and they ran into the Aztecs, they saw a civilization, but it wasn't civilization they recognized as civilized. Sure. Because, you know, they were performing human sacrifice in terrifically sanguineary kind of ways. And their model of civilization in a whole bunch of other ways was not compatible to what the Spanish looked at as being, well, you know, we're civilized

and you're all a bunch of savages who've, you know, somehow managed to build a sophisticated economy and a massive capital city that's larger than Rome is right now, but that doesn't mean you're civilized. Right. And that sanguineast kind of impact we've also talked about in my magnum opus, the wrestling episode where we talked about Puerto Rican wrestling and Lucha wrestling and stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah, it should work. So anyway, back to Howard, his primary conflict was this idea that civilization was a weakening force that it was through the vital struggle of an individual against outside forces that you got virtue and strength. And meanwhile, what I brought up in the comparison between the books and Millius' work, in Millius' hyboria, what we see aesthetically on the screen is everybody's a barbarian. Right. And so Millius doesn't see the conflict as being between civil civilization and barbarism.

He sees it as individual vitality versus collective malaise. And that's where we get to. Yeah, that's right. Nietzsche. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally Reagan. And it's, and it's all because he's got, you know, you have a hate hard on for Reagan. He has just a straight up regular hard on while I really straight, but he has a hard

on. Certainly, Leanne's right. Yeah. For Neachie. Yeah. Well, I'm in straight orientation. Gotcha. Anyway, so, but he has just a massive for rob robbing erection for Nietzsche, the whole time he's

doing it. Because again, he opens the film, the very first thing that passes across the strings, which does not kill us, makes us stronger for Nietzsche. Which is the dumbest thing that anybody has ever grabbed from Nietzsche because... Well, yeah, like if you're going to take anything from Nietzsche's work. That's like that's That's that's the cliffs notes that get taken down by the guy who gets an F on the final exam, right? Like right, you know, it sounds cool. It like it looks cool on a tattoo But you can literally poke a hole in it as soon as someone gets pneumonia

One as soon as someone gets pneumonia. Yeah, well, one. Yeah. But there you got to go get an all scientific about it. But you know, you know, two to a to a 12 or a 13 year old who's, you know, who I was when I watched this movie, you know, a hundred times on VHS. Oh, yeah. It sound like profound. It's like, oh, yeah, man man. Oh that's badass. You know.

For that. Now I'm now I'm in my 40s and I've had a little bit. I've gotten a little more mileage under my belt. I'm like, you know what? There have been plenty of opportunities that I've had in my life where yes, what didn't, what did not kill me made me stronger by divorce being, you know, primary example for. But there's also been plenty. Should I survive that like, I'm definitely weaker for it. Yeah. Well, I, you know, primary example for. But there's also been plenty of shit I've survived that like, no, weakers. No, weakers are for it. Yeah, well, I, you know, maybe not weakers, they're right word, but I didn't gain any strength out of it.

I like, you know, a bunch of fucked up coping mechanisms. Like, you know, strength or whiteness, whatever, you know, but like, I, I now, you know, my wife and I occasionally play fine as a trigger. Like, okay, this conversation is now, you know, hitting me in a place where, you know, my wife and I occasionally play fine as a trigger, like, okay, this conversation is now, you know, hitting me in a place where, you know, I need to think real hard about, you know, where, where my emotional reaction is coming from. Sure.

Give me a minute. And so, no, that doesn't always work that way. You, you know, crypto-fascist asshole. And so, you know, speaking of crypto-f no fascists i just want to and and and forgive me i'm stepping on your thunder here um but uh one guy who absolutely loved and adored Nietzsche was eight-off Hitler oh yeah he adopted the uber manch the the superman all this kind of stuff and Nietzsche almost absolutely would have hated the shit out of Hitler

like he would have looked down on him in a way that like... Well, because he was intellectual, I mean, he would have considered him one of the chattering dwarfs. Yeah, well, you know. And again, intellectual, legit, check, and dwarf. Yeah, got it in one, thank you. Right, you know, but like, it's so funny to me that the, the guy who fan boyed the most was just completely, would have been looked down on completely by the guy who's

fan pointing on, although he did that with Mussolini too. Like, he was so stoked to get to see Mussolini. And Mussolini is like, I don't want to talk to this fucking guy. So, and like put him off for almost a year. Yeah. Well, the only, the only reason he ultimately did wind up talking to him was because, well, the Germans are really good at building shit. Right.

Yeah. Hitler was blessed with the German army. Mussolini was cursed with the Italian army. Like that's... Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, on a complete side note from all of that, if as the as an aviation nut by way of being the

son of an aviator. Right. If you ever look at any of the warplane designs that the Italians came up with, they're absolutely gorgeous. The thing is the Italian Air Force had aircraft, you know, because we're talking about being cursed with Italian army. I think it's worth noting that that in terms of the technology they had available at least for their air force, the aircraft they built fucking beautiful. Where are they? Like think of the best high performance gorgeous Italian sports car you could think of. Okay, and then put it in the air. And then put wings on it. Yeah. Like, I mean, it was, it was their, their beautiful pieces of machinery.

That explains. That explains the, uh, the, the brand name, Chittity Chittity Bang Bang. That's clearly Italian. Yes. Yes. Chittity, Chittity Bang Bang. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Why is that minute mark now? 13 and a half. Yeah.

Okay, you're in the zone. Yeah, you're in the groove. But, you know, but the thing is the problem was they built them the same way they built all of those super cars, which is by hand one at a time. So they had four really cool aircrafts. So they had like, you know, a dozen really great aircraft. And the Germans had like, you know,

every Messerschmitt like there was. Right. The Falkwolf 190, they had, you know, 10,000 of the bloody things. Right. Which by the way is also a pretty good hyper performance airplane. But, you know, anyway, getting off the way is also a pretty good high performance airplane, but you know,

anyway, getting off the subject again. So, but talking about our analysis, what we're looking at, Millius' whole axis on looking at these stories was he didn't twig to, again, civilization versus barbarism, he twigged to individual will. Okay. You know, and it makes sense again. That makes sense again. Coming out of the late 70s in film school. Yes, and so, you know, in that time period, we were looking at the development of a movie about a rugged amoral driven individual, who ultimately overthrows a dictator who rules his followers through sorcery and

unholy charisma. Right. Okay. Those followers, we're talking about the cult of set, are used to subvert existing power structures and grant greater power and more followers to the cult's leadership. Okay. The cult leader promises his followers paradise at the cost of individual will. This is sounding like he's going off against the sag. I'm just being an actress, girls. You know, I had thought that. You know, there's there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's the top of what is clearly hierarchical structure, promising a utopia at the cost of individual freedom of

will. I know where you're going. Clearly, I mean based on the way you were raised to look at that's an anti-Soviet kind of allegory. That's true. That was not where I was going, but yeah, you're absolutely right. Okay, but I want to hear where you were coming. Culture huge from the late 60s to the early 70s. Oh, yeah. So that's just baked into the culture and both left and right. But like ultimately, it is a promise to liberate people from the strictures of individualism and the failure that you can run into. And you just have to sacrifice all of your, you know, somebody else gets to make decisions for you. And it's really popular through the 70s. I mean,

we can name a number of cults through the 70s and did horrible, horrible shit. And so that would have been in the culture at the time. That would have been a part of it did horrible horrible shit and so that would have been in the culture at the time that would have been a part of it all well yeah and and we talked about that briefly last episode talked about how you know the cult of set in the movie is a cult right whereas in the books it's the state religion of of stigia you know it's just a thing so um So our hero, continuing our analysis, our hero in the film is a superlative physical specimen

who defeats the cult leader through sheer determination, bloody mindedness, and raw physical prowess. I would borrow from Nietzsche here and say through force of will. Yes, yeah, through the will to power, actually. Yes, yes, the first through the will to power actually. Yes, yes, through the it very good. Yes. But what I would what I would point out is he doesn't do anything particularly fucking clever. Right. No, he doesn't. And Conan Conan is not an intellectual giant by any stretch of the imagination. What he is is a determinator and a physical Superman. Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Well, actually, the Superman's ego, as I said last time, but. I was going to say, just refresh for people who haven't heard the episode on Capn America. What is a determinator? Mm-hmm. Right. Sorry. I'm stealing the term from TV tropes. A determinator is a character who does not quit. Right. Ever for anything. It's, it is, it, it, it, of course, is a play on words on Terminator. Absolutely. Well, not stop until you are dead. And it is Determinator in that. No, no. I, this protagonist or supporting character, whoever have decided, no, no,

I'm going to do this. Right. And it doesn't matter how many times you beat me up, doesn't matter how many times I suffer a setback, it doesn't matter how many times you shoot me. Right. You're going to have to kill me, stone cold, fucking dead. And then incinerate my body, because again, in Conan, they do kill him. That's true. On the tree of woe. That's the crucify him. And yes, crucify. Let him contemplate this upon the tree of woe,

which I'm gonna get to in a second. Oh, cool. They do that to him. And then Mako, I'm sorry, Akiro, on the wizard, played by Mako in, oh my God, you know, talk about underappreciated acting parts, but anyway. Absolutely. But anyway, he gets brought back to fucking life and then goes, all right, I'm a kill you.

That's it. You should have killed me quick. You should have killed me quick. You should have killed me quick and you should have then torn my body down and burned it because now you fucked up. Yeah. And so it's strictly his physical prowess and his bloody mind, literally, bloody minded determination

that brings him the victory. There is no, no man, this is like, this is gonna be like a Sword and Sourcery Heist movie. Like, I've got a plan, we're gonna figure all this out. I've got a trick. They didn't have a plan in the movie though. Like, that was stealing, and they even told him, dude, put your vengeance aside.

Right now, we're stealing the princess. Oh, well, yeah. But in the end, men didn't matter. That's true. There's, you know, I don't know what went out the window. Yeah. So. And then he got to do all of his kicking everybody's ass stuff.

Just slashing and bashing and stuff like that. Yeah. Rural eating hell out of it. So, so Conan is really the Rick Astley. It can bite me. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. That's good. I'm fine.

So, but, but what I want to point out about, you know, kicking everybody's ass, that, that whole scene, Millius, like, freely admitted that he cribbed that from, this is me, so you know I'm gonna have to point out that this was borrowed from this source. Courtsawah. Oh! The Battle of the Standing Stones is a pet-stiche, borrowing theft, whatever you want to call it, from the Seven Samurai. Yeah, you're right. Okay. Like, if you look, like if you go back and actually like now that I've said that, if you watch the movie again, you're going to get to that scene, you're going to be like, oh fuck. Yeah, they've cut all the pipes. Like, yeah.

Yeah, like the camera angles and the way they do the whole thing. Yeah. So, I mean, there is a plan involved, but that plan is driven by, no, no, no, I'm personally going to genocide you. Yeah. And I will draw you to. Look at me. I will pull you to me and then I'm going to fuck you up.

Yes. So, see, now my read on him has always been different, like forever. And one of the reasons that I think this is such a good movie is because of this particular read, he is so psychologically damaged at the trauma of seeing his whole village wiped out that the only thing that he had it in front of him. Yeah, while she's holding his hand. Yeah. And like she falls away and he's staring at his hand, you know, but the the trauma that was inflicted upon him and then the

further abuses that he suffered made him essentially the only language he knew was violence because that was normalized for him and taking advantage of it for him. And on top of that, the only purpose for being he had was vengeance. He was an instrument of vengeance and that was it. Like, I didn't even get to the will to power for him because he was just an instrument of vengeance and that was it. Like I didn't even get to the will to power for him because he was just an instrument of vengeance. And to me, the whole thing goes up to the idea that vengeance, and this is why I think

Millius fell over backward into a good movie. He, once he had his vengeance, he literally had no direction in his life to go. And then the movie ends with him just sitting there staring at it emptily like, well, what now? Yeah. It was a much less verbal version of what happened in Digo, Montoya. But essentially the same thing. And that to me was the most fascinating part of it all. And so I totally get where you're going. But to me, it hit on a very different level. It was a very much

more just like, look at this poor guy and how ruined he's been by everything. Because he doesn't ever really, he only smiles when he gets drunk. He doesn't really understand intimacy. He knows how to do the sex act. But he by and large is a novice. It all things tender. And the only thing he knows, I mean, even when he tries to sneak into the cult in the first place, he's found immediately,

because he sticks out like a sore thumb. And then he beats the guy down and steals his ropes and tries to sneak in and just fucks it up. Like he does not have the tools to be either an intellectual or an emotional being. It will be a functional human. Yeah, really. Yeah.

And once that drive is eliminated, he's got nothing. And that's what I love about it. Yeah. And that is so profoundly not Howard's Conan right like at all right like at all that is that is the biggest thing as a as a as somebody who who fell in love with this movie as my introduction to Conan and then years later actually read the stories and came away thinking oh my god the the books are so much better for a whole variety of reasons. That is, and I mean, I still unabashedly love this film.

Like, there's so much nostalgia and everything tied in, tied in the movie. Oh, sure. I think it can exist on, it does exist. I think on both levels. I think there is a lot of power in the narrative you're talking about. I think that's a crucial step to understand how this version of the character operates. At the same time, I think what what Milius in his, you know, Millius in his

You know, deep plus in philosophy kind of way was trying to say He you know, it's like well, you know, you nearly made it right you were kind of there You know, you got you got some of the really big themes, but like you didn't put them together the right way right You were a hard student. You were you were a film student who took philosophy took Philosophy and thought you were a philosopher because of it because white guy with a beard. Yeah, with a beard. In the 70s, smelling of patchouli.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Paging George Lucas. Paging George Lucas. Paging George Lucas. Please answer the white courtesy phone. Or you know, don't just let it keep ringing cyclically forever because you don't understand fucking Buddhism. Sorry. There's that. Sorry, backing away from the mic now.

So I'm sorry, backing away from the mic now. So, but I think both of those narratives are takeaways. And I think are important takeaways. I think, you know, moving, continuing on with the analysis, what we see is that nobody but the hero successfully stands up to Tholsa Duhm. True. Conan is the only one who can do it it because everybody else either has some position in society like well You know, I'm the king. I can't go taking direct action because you know It would it would lessen my position for you know in front of my people for me to give this guy the the the attention of going on one

Still my daughter, you know, he's yeah, he's got, he's got my daughter hostage. I can't admit that he's got my daughter, you know, or whatever, everybody else is stymied, but a social, social pressures or whatever, whereas Conan being the ubermanch, right, is it just say, no, fuck that. Well, it's also, they're all civilized. Yes. He's not. See, see, here's the deal. That

that if that angle on it had been better, better played, that would be really good. How hardy and angle in the story. Sure. But I really, the sense, like from watching the film, the sense I get is less than it's, you know, he's a barbarian, he lives outside of society, you can do these things because he's outside of society. And it's more, everybody else is held back by their individual sense of station, sense of duty. He is the uber bench, he is beyond all of that.

Sure. You get what I mean. I do, yeah. I think, you know, and so that's, that's, that's Millius' particular take on, on how that works. Violence, because you're talking about him being crippled and violence being the only language he understands. Violence is millions?

Are we talking, are we talking's really sure we talking Conan. We're talking Cone. Oh, okay. Well, and yeah, good. You know, he used to love to take his friends like and just like pull out the shotgun in his car. He would regularly show. Yeah, he had a hard on for guns.

Shocking. Um, but he, yeah, um, but he would regularly pull out the gun and show it off to his friends. So, yeah. Yeah. That's nuts. Yeah. All right. So, I stepped on you.

Go. On top of everything else, you know, an otter with small PPC syndrome. On top of everything else. So, but the point I want to make is we're getting're we're we're we're we're coming up on on meeting them maybe you know take a break and chill some stuff, but What I want to point out before we get there is that in the film violence is ubiquitous. Yes, and urgent and bloody

Like desperately desperately sanguineary. Yeah. It propels the story. And we see the characters showing prowess and power through its exercise. Yeah, it is. It is the key. Yeah. The key to what makes Subodai Subodai is he can kill people really well with a bow.

He's able to shoot really fast and hit stuff. And he's a killer. Thief and Archer. Yeah. What makes the Leria Valeria is she is a, she devil with a sword. She's, you know, red sonia without the red hair. Right.

And she is, she is this warrior figure. Conan, who in the books is this reaver and this raider and this thief in the movie. He's a prototypical D&D barbarian D12 dice 18 to a lot of strength. Yeah, hitting everything with a bastard sword that kind of isn't, I could sword nerd about the alien sword for a very long time, but that's the point here. What they, every opportunity that those characters have to show their skill, to show that they are competent,

their competence is always tied up in violence. Yeah, yeah. That's true. Like we take for granted the fact that they're able to throw grappling hooks and climb a tower. Right. That doesn't even really get complicated. Yeah, that was almost kind of surprising.

Which by itself is that one thing. Yeah, like it was surprising that Conan knew how to do that. Like you understood that Valeria did, because that's the context in which you met her. But yeah, you're right. And even Valeria, like his respect for her was that she could fight. Like, he watched her fight and he's like,

oh shit, this gal can go. Yeah. Like, he sees her fight before they bone. Yeah. And that's kind of what, you know, gets his nostrils flaring. So, you know, and so every opportunity that what gets his nostrils flaring. So every opportunity that they have to show off their competence has to do with direct

physical confrontation and has to do with fighting. It's not about being a good climber. It's not about being able to tell a story. It's not about being able to be, you know, the face man and when people over, just nobody ever does that. There's no, there's no point in this story where anybody successfully acts as the face man for the group. There is no bard in this D&T party. That's a good point. Like, at all, there's a wizard who weirdly plays the role of cleric as well, because resurrection raised dead wherever there's the thief, Subatai, who plays the role of the thief.

There is also the thief though. Well, yeah. She's the heistler. But like, yeah, yeah, but multi-class fighter thief. Yeah, whereas he's arch high school. But like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but multi class fighter thief. Yeah. Whereas he's archer. I think. Yeah. And, and, and Conan again, is, is the melee striker.

I'm going to run in and like, hit him over the head of the sharpened piece of metal, which, I mean, you know, that's who I play in a game. Sure. Most of the time, because, you know,, I don't have to worry about keeping track. I'm gonna spell lots of that I got left when I'm doing, you know, it's just this two complicated look. I'm sure. I'm doing this for catharsis. I just want to, I just want to kill monsters and then like get loot and, and you know, be what you while I'm doing it. That's all I want to do. So, you know, nothing against that. But like in the context of actually trying to be a character,

like in the context of actually trying to be a character. Conan in this movie is kind of that guy, your gaming table who's just like, he has a character sheet and that's kind of it. Right. You know? He's deactivated until combat. Yeah, yeah, it's like whatever, whatever all the talking characters do, all your shit.

Let me know when the fight starts. Right, I'm there. Right. You I'm there. You know, yeah, which, you know, I mean, more power to that guy for showing up. We all get what we get out of a tabletop game, but like, come on, yeah. So and on, on that note, I think now is probably a good time for us to cut away for a moment and then come back to this. I think so. All right.

We'll catch you on the other side. Do. All right, we'll catch you all on the other side. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right.

All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right.

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someone happy birthday. If you're interested in using this space, please contact us on Twitter via private message at Geek History Time. Oh man. And what a good ad. Yeah, well, you know, like always, I mean, when do we give a bad one? That's a good point. Definitely worth the money, you know, just stand and allow. Yeah, well, because we are motivated.

Yes. Like, we, we, we will happily, happily, anything you can provide to us that we can have any level of real meaningful faith in we will shill the daylights out of it because you know at our core we are both essentially mercenaries. Yeah, I need the money. Yeah, we have we have literally children to feed. So, advice must have been by not doing we have literally children to feed. So a bite not. By not doing a commercial, you are keeping my kids from eating meat. Just saying or or to.

Yeah, it's really, I mean, how dare you? How dare you not a bite commercial? How dare you? Yeah. How dare you sir or madam. I can't afford for you not to really Yeah, neither can I at this point. I mean put it that way and Kind of a depressing thought please. Yeah, I love God buy some ad time folks. We're hungry. So

So I want to be able to celebrate Christmas this year, please So anyway, where we left off. that's the business at hand. Yes. So violence, becodes, it's everywhere. And it is a force that propels the story and gives definition and meaning to who our character, who our protagonists are. Sure. And gives them value. And straight up, gives them value.

Like you can actually rank the Conan crew based on their ability to do violence. In fact, even the wizard, and I wanted to bring this up before, the wizard comes out a threatening is like, I'm a wizard mind you. And, you know, and he said, I'm going to team it more powerful than all in hell. Right. Which by the way, is like, I wish I could somehow get the opportunity to play a wizard character in like like join a party That doesn't have like like a group of people that have been gaming for like nine months or a something sure and Introduce my wizard character with that set of lines. That would be fun

Because that is just so goddamn perfect That would be fun because that is just so goddamn perfect But and then and then that wonderful it would be there's that wonderful moment that wonderful immensely macho American moment, where he says that and they lock eyes. Yeah, and then they both must out laugh it yeah You know, and then he like waves him over to drink Yeah, yeah, it's so good. And that is so perfectly dunges and dragons too. It really is.

But like, oh, so the wizard though, he comes, he comes out a Threaten which I get back then. Okay, Bronze Age stuff, but he comes out of Threaten and buddy comes out of Threaten and Violence and he can't do Corporeal damage. So he's like, I, I can do the magic shit. And be careful, you know, and then he talks about how nobody bothers him because he takes care of the dead.

And then what does he do during the battle? He actually stabs a dude with his spear. And he has a turtle moment where he can't actually get up. But like he stabs a dude with his spear and and Subatai congratulates him. and in some ways they welcome him into the fold now. And if you remember, he's a part of the tribe. Yeah, like he's just straight up, that's how we do it, you know,

and he's like, I did it with my spear and they're all laughing. But even before that, the fact that he brought weapons to them, like he's bringing the instruments of violence. And they even say, are the gods going to help us? He's like, no, well, then tell them to stay out of the way. And they have that violence dripping kind of exchange. So you're absolutely right. And so the wizard's value is tied directly to his ability to support their violence and then ultimately he has to get in on it for him to be truly like blood and blood out kind of thing. Well, yeah, and I think that ties in again to Millius' really like fucked up fragile masculinity, kind of kind of view of all of this. Yes. of view of all of this is viewed through this really hemming-wask manfulness is like the

only virtue masculine, the narrowly defined male role kind of thing. And all of it is there. I mean, this is the same toxic masculinity that was involved. Like, remember what he said about his contribution to the script? Because he directed the shill, but he also had a draft of the script. Right. Road for dirty Harry. Right. But he said what I contributed was guns, a lot of guns. And the fact that the cop and the killer were basically the same, except the cop had a badge.

And he was lonely. Like, holy holy shit dude. One, how nihilistic is that? Two, how deeply are you damaged by these ideas of machismo? That like, this is your idea of, oh yeah, no, that's totally what I contributed to that story. Is that really, or calling that a contribution? Like, you know, I mean, in my, you know, beta soy boy, you know, 2020 liberal cock kind

of way, I'm kind of looking at that. Like, I don't know if that's really a contribution. Right. I don't, you know, I mean, clearly that's the influence you had, but we're really going to give it the value of a contribution. Well, I'm looking at one. And then, yeah, like you say, this... Go ahead.

Oh. I was going to say, I'm looking at what movies were coming out though at the time of Dirty Harry. And a lot of them were not... They were either ultra violent or there was no violence at all. So his idea of contributing might have been, no, I pushed it to the limit that we were pushing against, like filmically, like the same thing with Taxi Driver, like it was a tremendously violent movie. Like, Dirty Harry that want to say was what, 74, 75, the second Godfather movie was 72, The second Godfather movie was 72 and it was way violent for 72. Taxi driver, I think, was right around that same time too and it was way violent for that time.

So adding all the guns and such to Dirty Harry, that might have been like, hey, I was pushing against those borders there. Well, yeah, and again, that gets back to that whole auditor. My contribution is I'm pushing against the system as it exists. And okay, I can see that, but that's still rooted in this idea of again, talking about conflict being the defining value thing is, well, you know, I was I was resisting the the studio system. I was I was pushing against, you know, I was cysophus pushing this boulder up up up a hill. Right. You know, kind of kind of thing like, you know, that's that's the virtue that I

have going on, which, you know, I, I vote cysophus, which, you know, immediately to me brings up existentialism, which is giving these guys way too much goddamn credit for having done an Euredian college, right? That's true. But it's that same, I think it much more goes back to that modernism point from earlier about struggle, violence, all the stuff being purifying, being all of that. And so, you know, the last, the last point here that

I want to get to, well, not really, the last point in this particular line of logic is that the world that all of these characters inhabit is haunted by these dark sorceress forces. But the heroine's companions overcome all of them through physical violent, violent physical prowess. Yeah. Like the world is a scary place where weird who-do-shit happens. And a villain is like part man parts snake, sorcerer wizard. And like you can randomly wind up if

you're wandering alone you can randomly wind up being semi kidnapped semi seduced by a weird witch demon woman right who you have to you know to save your own life you got a picture in your own fireplace you know like like the world you taste by walls Chase by Wolves? Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, but I'm thinking less about the wolves and I'm thinking more about the world. Yeah, I see where you're saying, yeah. Okay, spooky kind of ass sharp of the world that always consistently threw out the film and in the sequel, but especially in this first film,

winds up being overcome through steel and violent prowess. Now, I love that point. I have two questions for you about that. One, are you going to touch on the riddle of steel? Oh yeah, let's come in. Two, are you going to touch on the differences in what is best in life? No, let's talk about that though. on the differences in what is best in life.

No, let's talk about that though. So, he's sitting there with, I assume Mongolians or Huns. Well, that's who it's, yes, it's Mongols. Okay. I mean, all of the trappings as the more recently longer serving world history guy, all the coding, all the coding has changed his con. Like, I'm amazed, I'm amazed that we don't see a clip of, you know, Subutai in the back of the crowd.

Right. You know, oh, hey, we met once, many years ago, you don't remember, you know, like it's clearly Mongols. Right, continue. So he says, a guy holds up a scroll and says, oh, yeah, we've won again. Everybody cheers. This is good.

But what is best in life? And Conan is literally sitting in the middle. And the red headed slaver who is his master is sitting off to his right now. So Conan is now everybody's pet champion. And he says, what is best in life? And another dude says, the open step, free force, or I might be saying that wrong. A switch worse. The open step. Right. A swift horse, falcons at your wrist and the wind

in your hair. Right. So clearly, which are Mongol. Like that's all Mongol. Oh, yeah. Like, like, no mad horse, no mad, like seven days a week, twice on sand and and very much and very much hedonist. Yes. Here, here, here is this wonderful, this wonderful set of sensations. Right. Now, and all of it, and, okay, I was gonna say, all of what you just mentioned is a person who is present in the world, who exists post-battle, who lives during downtime. Okay. Conan, and the guy says, wrong.

And he picks on Conan. Conan, like, because you and I both have that student that we know if we call on them, they're gonna give us the right answer, so we feel like we're doing a job. So you call so Conan I have no idea what you're talking about I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't literally don't let that kid answer sometimes Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what is best in life? And Conan says

Crush your enemies see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women and everybody cheers And that is, that is good, that is good. And I think the very next scene he is being chopped free. But what's interesting to me is that everything that he just mentioned only exists once initiative has been rolled. Everything he mentions, crush your enemy, sit them driven before you and go to the limitations of their women. I love you, though.

It's all bad. I love the way you phrase that. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so he's not actualized. He is activated during battle, and that's all he can think of. And I would say the other guy is actually living in the world

whereas Conan is merely an instrument of whoever's in charge of him. Which is why the next scene him getting his freedom is actually more of a tragic scene for him, because now he has no purpose again, and he has to go out and find it. And so then he, you know, activates Revenge Program 1. But he is absolutely that character that sits there at the table and does nothing until, oh, I throw a chair and now we start fighting. Like, everything that he values, and this is what I wanna get back to,

everything that he values is the, we talked about this, I think we talked about this when I talked about the futurists. Yeah. Okay, and it's all the stuff that the futurists loved. And he's talking about the, you know, the fisticuff, the violence, the beauty of the violence and all that. And that's what is best in life

is essentially hurting other people, like imposing your will to power. And I just, I think that that's a really interesting thing that that's treated as, because the other thing is spurned almost immediately, whereas Conan's ideals, they're not ideals. thing that that's treated as because the other thing is spurned almost immediately. Whereas Conan's ideals, they're not ideals. But his ideals. No, it's not. It's not treated by our, again, soy boy beta kind of, kind of world view

of right ideals at all. But, but the couple of things in response to what you're saying, number one, that quote about to crush your enemy, see them driven before you inherit the limitations of the women, it is my understanding. And maybe we can look this up and one of us can say whether or not it's actually correct. It is my understanding that is actually attributed to Chinggis Khan. Damn, what a guy. that is actually attributed to Chinggis Khan. Damn, what a guy. Well, he was responsible for a period of global cooling because he killed so many people

that they weren't putting smoke in the atmosphere. They were cooking fires anymore. So there's that. Let's talk about the Enthropocene and how that works. I think it's interesting what you said a second ago about when he's activated. Real quick, he did, Millius lifted it from a book by Harold Lamb called Ginghis Khan, the Emperor of All Men. So he lifted it straight.

In fact, both of those quotes are directly from that. It's directly from that. So yeah. So anyway. Well, creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. Yeah. So, but what you said about him being the element, you know, the will to power, that statement

is all about the will to power imposing your will on someone else. What's interesting is that quote is totally will to power imposing your will on someone else. But as you point out, the moment he's not the one There's a moment he's not following somebody else's orders. He doesn't have a will to power anymore, right? Yeah, he's he is he is a broken tool Until he as you say activates revenge program number one and And you know thelsa do him better, you know, get hiding.

Sure. Yeah. So my, my, my assertion here with, with all of this is that thematically, all of this is the same narrative that Reagan tapped into to get elected. I was about to say it's also Reagan post election too, because Carter, you because Carter was like, hey, let's enjoy this environment that we have. Here's the EPA, well, I mean, that was Nixon,

but let's use solar panels. Let's get in with it. Yeah, and let's do all this stuff, and let's make peace between two peoples who have been warring for 30 years. And Reagan was like, let's redo Vietnam because we're embarrassed. So sorry, Grenada.

You know, like, it's, you know, crush your enemy, see them driven before you into the limitations. You're the one who inherit the limitations of the women. So, but what we're looking at here is individualism. Strife and struggle. Direct confrontation of an enemy. Economic forces, because remember, we're talking about the 70s sucking.

And so we're looking at all the economics shit that was going on. Economic forces are murky and invisible, but we can defeat them through work and free or markets. Wow. And free market is the world's power of the individual. Give the best weapon to the strongest guy. So there's your supply side economics.

Precisely. Collectivism, collectivism, whether it's Soviet socialism or union action, is for the weak and the corrupt. Right. OK. The USSR was portrayed as a dictatorial regime of blind sheep. Right. Reagan stood against them as the virile, manful hero who'd forced them to submit. Often seen as a cowboy. The American ideal of individualism with violence by the way.

They're seeing like his way of activating himself. Yeah. Yeah. So, now, it's worth noting here that before the election, opinion polls showed that while people liked Reagan better than Carter, they still weren't all totally thrilled with him. He was not, before the election, he was not massively, oh my yeah Reagan like popular there were plenty of people who were like well you know we we we're not we're not totally thrilled with him because he seems like kind of an empty headed howdy-duty you know Hollywood guy right but but same token, but you know, they dislike Carter more. Wow. Hmm.

Yeah, kind of odd. Carter, who was really, really smart and very well qualified. And like frighteningly competent. Yeah. So, and so the film portrays all the heroes are distinctly anti-heroes. And the king who hires them is just as grasping and cynical as everybody else is. There are no good guys in Conan the Barbarian. And as much as Reagan wanted to paint himself as the good guy, a great many people knew

from the even people who voted for him. A great many of him knew he was not. Oh, it's really a couple of the 12 peers. Yeah, it already is. Are you kidding? Oh. So, yeah, now in my notes here, this is where I bring up, that James Earl Jones' portrayal of doom is totally underrated.

Oh, extremely. Like, desperately, desperately underrated. He chooses Siri with clear relish. Like, it's like he smeared mustard on it and is just a knife on it. Like, it's as somebody who did fear in high school and a very little bit in college and I'm still kind of a drominer watching him do that

is like it is clear he's having too much damn fun. And the way and what's remarkable is the way he plays up doom as a cold leader with his voice, you know, thunderous and terrifying one moment and gentle and manipulative the next. Yes. And almost sad.

Like at one point, he's very sad. Like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Such a waste. Like, and just when he crucifies him, even. Oh, okay. Go, go, go. Yeah, yeah, I'm about to get to that.

But, you know, honestly, I think his vocal work in this movie Just just the way he uses his voice in the role is far better than his work as Darth Vader Mm-hmm, and and and Vader is the role that everybody remembers like you know, you say James Earl Jones That's the one I like like Fulsa Doom shows up on his resume like at a distant fourth. Yeah behind Vader roots, I don't even know what is there. Feel of dreams. Like, you know, yeah, probably. Yeah.

You know, and the thing is, and this is where I'm going to bring in the riddle or steel, because because his vocal work ties into that. Crom is the only God that Conan venerates right all. And the riddle of steel is Crom's greatest secret turns out we find out spoiler alert not really spoiler the movie's over 30 years old but turns out the riddle of steel was also Doomsgole in his early life when he murdered Conan's people. Yep, I hope you're right. And now what is it? No, I've got it right here.

What does that turn out to be? And here's the quote. And there's no way. There's absolutely no way I'm gonna do James Little Jones justice, but here I go try. Do it as a 1930s announcer instead, like the guy who did that in the bird. No, I'd be that that's tempting by a kid myself to do it.

Yes, you know what it is, don't you boy? Shall I tell you it's the least I can do. Steel isn't strong boy. Flesh is stronger. Look around you. There on the rocks, a beautiful girl. Come to me by child. And the girl that should be for anybody who hasn't seen the movie because everybody who has is already following the the the mental painting. A a will we look in young actors leaps off of a balcony, probably two stories. Shatters,

the wooden floor that they're all standing on and is clear kill instantly on impact. So he coaxes her to suicide, then turns to Conan. The back of one hand in the palm of the other, it says, that is strength boy, that is power. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look, the strength in your body, the desire in your heart. I gave you this, such a waste. Contemplate this on the tree of woe, crucify him. crucify him. So right there, you might as well be reading from the cliffs notes of Nietzsche, because that is the Nietzsche and will of the individual again, strength and vitality as virtues

in and of themselves. The strength of the individual's individuals, the strength of the individuals hand, the strength of the individuals will to do whatever it is they're going to do way more than the steel. It's far more powerful than than the metal itself. So, Millius's film was an essay on strength and the ubermatch viewed through the frame of Howard's care of conehande, the outsider who faced corrupting civilized softness with barbarian honesty and virility. So he went up to go ahead. I was going to say I'd like to point out something here as well because there's another layer to that. Of course, because Milius keeps falling over backward into it. I really don't wanna give him that much credit

because like every interview with him, I'm just like, no, dude, no, you're, how did you do such a beautiful thing? You're a tow, yeah. How the hell did you do this? You're kind of, but you're, yeah. Because Conan says, you killed my mother, you killed my father, you killed my people,

you took my father's sword. He says, ah, must have been when I was younger. You know, there was a time boy, all I cared about was weapons of steel and on and on. And they said that earlier too. But what I love is that his dad was the one who was a sword maker. His dad was forging the sword. His family was forging the sword. Conan was going to grow up being a sword forger and He was taken radically off that path because they slaughtered his whole family

killing his father in front of him by the way with dogs and then And a well-placed acts in the back and then killing his mother and Low and behold the riddle of steel which his dad had told him like no one on this earth can you trust speaking of your individualism by the way his dad was the same guy yes this you can trust his dad was the same guy who played the Russian uh Fox in red, the guy who was hunting the Wolverines. Same guy. Oh yeah, that's true. And also he was actually considered for the role of Conan. Yes, and he actually does speak Russian. Like there were a few other movies that he's done recently. Oh, well. Yeah. But back to the thing. So this you can trust and he points to his sword. So to him the riddle of steel is you can always trust steel

Look at this thing that I've made look to your tools look to your capabilities of making something that is a force multiplier and He dies and false adoom comes in and says oh no, it's all about Flight what good is steel compared to the flesh that wields it, because he's in some ways right. Steel will just sit there until you have a hand that's trained to use it and use it the right way. And then it's about your will, like you said.

So Tholsa Dume wrecks Conan's world a second time because he knows the riddle of steel. He tells Conan the answer that is clearly by that universe's rules, more valid than his father's answer was by virtue of the fact that he had killed his father with violence. Wow. And so it's a total replacement of the old paradigm that Conan had been raised upon, but then had fairly well forgotten anyway.

For those of you that can't see, Ed's eyes just crossed. So. Yeah. That, wow, that you're right. He clearly, Millius fell backward into that. Yes. Because, because like you said, yeah, look, look at it. What he wrote and what he had to say about his own work.

There's no way. No, if you listen say about his own work. There's no way. No, if you listen to the director's cut. There's no way. It's, yeah. He's like, it's the work. His own profundity went completely over his own head. Oh my God. So like, and then he says such a waste.

Like, I gave you this. In other words, I gave you the wheel to struggle against. I gave you everything that you could possibly need to activate your sheer force of will and you never did. You were just an instrument. You were literally just a sword. And then he says, contemplate this on the tree of woe. You're going to die.

You're going to die knowing that you were were taught wrong knowing that I was right and knowing that you failed Well, ha ha mother fucker. I got a wizard. Yeah As it turns out well, so and then and then and then as it and then as it turns out You gave me all of this will and all of this will is no direct at killing you. Exactly. killing you stone fucking dead now I want to point out something with Reagan by the way okay good old ronzo when he didn't get killed when he didn't get killed his popularity shot through the roof he essentially was resurrected because he damn near died prior to that he was very unpopular for what he had done. Although he had come in on a virtual landslide,

he won over 50% of the vote, and Carter only won 41. Well, the popular vote he won 51%. He wanted an electoral landslide. Yes. So, you know, an electoral victory, that was much, much bigger than his actual victory based on the popular vote. Okay.

Are you comfortable yet? I mean, it didn't really win the popular. Well, yeah, it, yes, yes. He was the last. He did actually popular vote. Well, and, and, he won by almost 9 percentage points because there was an independent who pulled some votes. But he won by a significant margin popular wise too.

And if it had meant for that independent who was another Republican running against him, it should be noted, his margin would have been even bigger. Exactly, yes. So he won, he was very popular, but by the time he got shot, people were really sour on him because he was just fucking over workers. A bunch of shit that pissed everybody off. Yeah. Um, but then he

he rejuvenates out by the ocean. Yeah. Somebody draws all over him. Which, yeah, and which, what, what, what didn't kill him did in fact make him politically stronger and then he and Grenada Yeah, well, you know, so you keep getting back to that so in in in the same way that Reagan was a charismatic vital masculine figure promising victory against unseeable chaotic forces Through individual freedom, right? We're gonna we're gonna going to cut all the regulation government isn't the solution to the problem government is the problem we're going to cut all the regulation we're going to give you

use the ideal and Ryanian capitalist individual we're going to give you the freedom to solve all these problems right in in the same way that he promised victory against a collectivist authoritarian enemy. So, Vity, Cold Warrior. Yeah. And in the 80s through the 1990s, that machismo defined action heroes in general. It was an inescapable part of the genre.

Because it was an unescapable part of the national psyche. And it's one of the underpinnings of the right word shift of the culture during that time period. And that's in terms of I have now presented my thesis. This is the point at which I stand with arms outstretched and had cocked like what? What motherfucker? What?

Because that's, I mean, as far as the argument goes, that's my conclusion. But I still have more to say. Talking about aftermath and effect of all of this. First thing is, I've already said it once in this episode, probably, previously, I loved this movie so goddamn much. I still do.

When I was at middle school in high school, and I still do too. This movie and the Blues Brothers were the two films that I watch more than any others through junior high and into high school. In high school I discovered Monty Python and Holy Grail and it was all over. But to an adolescent boy, all of the subtext and philosophy was imperceptible. But the image, but the image of Conan standing powerful and defiant against the forces of

Doom, his prayer to Crom before facing them. And if you will not answer my prayer, then to have it you right was, I mean, it was fucking intoxicating. It was like, oh my god, settle just after I run in my bloodstream on fucking fire like a holy shit. And that music, you know, oh my god, that. Oh, god, yeah, I haven't even gotten gotten to talking about the score. The score is musky. Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, all that heavy, deep, timpani percussion. Mm-hmm.

And the horns coming in, yeah. Baaah. But, yeah, I mean, Lord, it is in terms of symphonic soundtracks. It is the closest thing I think anybody has come to music to make you want to run through a fucking brick wall Yeah, like like that's that's that's part of the like when I when I on the sporadic occasions on which I get you know Wildhair and on its side. No, man. I'm gonna go to the gym the the Conan theme is part of my workout playlist because that, the, I mean, like you say,

the percussion at the very beginning of that, it's like there's no way. Like that makes the tread. Yeah. Yeah, that actually has a perceptible effect on your heart rate. And that is, that is one of a very few things that can make a treadmill suck marginally less,

right there. Yeah. Absolutely. And so it's, I thought when I started the research for this, this is something I learned. I thought that in the same way that battle star Galactica was a, a, oh man, you know, sci-fi is real popular, we're gonna make some money off of this, you know, response to Star Wars.

I thought that a whole host of other movies that came around the time, same time. I thought they were, oh hey, Conan was a hit. We gotta do this. We gotta do the same thing. Turns out it was wrong. There's a whole host of Schlocky sword and sorcery movies that came out at the same time. Yes.

Most, and they were made at the same time. Yes. Most notable for the Beast Master. Oh, I love that one. And A-twer the fighting eagle. Okay, never saw that. Which a Beast Master was long-haired. Okay, so my dad and I, my parents and I,

because my mom got along with us. She has the patience of job. We went and saw a tour of the fighting eagle in the theater. Oh wow. Okay, and all of these films feature muscular shirtless protagonists fighting fighting against sorcerers enemies. But none of them had the same success co-handed because master yeah, beast master had success, but it had success

after it got picked up and run eternally over and over on HBO. He has, that's true. Okay. Now, here's why though, none of them had an Arnold Schwarzenegger. That man was thick and beefy. He was everything that people wanted to be. Like Mark Singer was a very muscular fellow, but he was live

He was built for agility. He actually he actually looked like Conan should look right Sarah is her and his eyes are the wrong color right? It's build was the Conan, but he was built for actual fighting Conan was built for fainting Conan was built for fainting. Yeah. For... Conan was built for posing on a stage. Yes. Conan as beefcake or Schwarzenegger was beefcake. Here's the thing.

I think that's part of it, but I also have to say there is a level on which Arnie has a level of remarkable charisma. Even though he goes through, that even though his acting in this movie is crap, like, like, like, I disagree entirely. Okay, well,

different interpretation of character based on the interpretation of him being, okay. You know, a chair I'll sold your. Yeah. I get what you're saying. Because they didn't let him talk. But he, they didn't, yeah, they didn't let him talk because of his accent. Yeah. Um, he's a tremendous comedic actor, by the way.

His timing is excellent. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, later stuff he did. No, it's, it's amazing. You can tell he's got, he's got a cracker jack sense of humor. And yeah, um, but he, he, he exudes charisma. Yes, he does. And singer is a is a competent actor. He knows what he's doing. He hits all of his marks. He does it real well, but he just does not have. It's true. The same level of animal magnetism that Arnie, that was unintentional, that's a freebie. And the guy that played A-Tor

was again a competent enough actor, hit all of his marks, did everything real well, but he just, he's kind of a way, compared to Arnold, he's a wet noodle. They just don't have the same presence. Now, the thing is, so all of these guys are these shirtless barbarian heroes, all of these muscular, you know, hyper masculine kind of, you know, fantasy images. And so that again ties into that hole. We've been through the 70s our our morale is shot we need to we need to look up to these these figures of these hyper virile you know warrior champions sure now while I'm talking about this friend of the show Bishop and in our sponsor is is going undoubtedly going to harp on me if I don't mention talking about all these schlocky other movies, if I don't mention Hawk the Slayer, he's gonna give me a hard time, but it doesn't actually fit the pattern. And he and I are gonna get

an argument on this, but I need to make my case now because he's not here to defend it. It predates Conan by two years. Hawk the Slayer actually comes out in 80. It's star Jack Palants. Oh wow. In a role that was an obvious Darth Vader impersonation. Oh wow. And the whole time he's playing the part, you can hear the sound of his paycheck, clearing.

Okay. Like it is so clear money, dear boy. Like that's, you know, what was your motivation in that scene? I got to put my kid through college. Like, you know, I have a mortgage. And so, yeah, and so my argument here is that Hawk the Slayer is a lesser sword and sorcerer movie than it is a thematic ripoff of Star Wars in fantasy drag. Then it really is part of the barbarian movie Sword and Sourcery sub genre, Bishop Fight Me.

Or is it- Or pay money to buy a commercial to say why it's wrong. Or to- Yes, there you go. You prefer that. That's fine. Yeah, I'd like that too. So then yeah 84. Conan destroyer comes out. Okay. And I watched the hell out of that one too. But but destroyer didn't have the same power barbarian did. No.

Um, it's Subatai who is one of the most entertaining characters in the first movie. He got dropped like a hot rock. Yes. Malik comes in. And, yeah, and they introduced Malik. Um, I liked him. He was a backstabber. Well, yeah, every D&D character I had had Daikers.

Okay, I can see that. But he didn't have the same level of again charisma that Subatide. I disagree. He didn't have the same level of gravitas. He was comedic relief in a movie that previously had no comedic relief. Had no comedy relief, okay, good point. Yeah, even

other man care punches a fucking camel. Yes. And how it manages the and it still manages to not be funny, because we're so busy drowning in in Nietzsche and bullshit that like well, they're also on here. They're on drugs and then suddenly it cult comes out like what the fuck man and Supertized you're too big to be a thief and like you know, let's get him out there But that camel comes back in the second movie too and spits all over him That's true. He even tries to apologize

And what's weird is Malik rappers reminds him he says hey, doesn't that camel look familiar? And he always talks like that. He's like, I think it does. I'm sorry about that. And it spits on him and he just smashes it on the head. And you're like, what the fuck? Okay. What the fuck?

Yeah. So, so, again, so that I get strapped. Yep. And the story wound up. Yeah, and the story wound up being more of a D&D module. Yes. than a Howard adventure. I mean, and the whole party is all D&D archetypes.

Oh my God, you're right. I mean, which is part of the reason my friends, and I were like, oh man, this is fucking awesome. Cause like, if you could look at that and go, man, I got to roll up a thief like Malik, dude, I gotta do, I gotta do a female fighter like Grace Jones, whatever the fuck she was doing. She was a man. Yeah, actually, I gotta do, I gotta do a female fighter like Grace Jones, what the fuck she was doing. Yeah, actually, it could be.

Except we were all playing first edition in monks. Okay, she was the acrobat in the D&D cartoon. Oh, there you go. She's a very good guy. Yeah. Holy shit. There you go. And, and bombata, of course, is the,, is the bad guy traveling with the party, drag, and whole thing.

I mean, it's just all the same. That movie was far more entertaining. It was not as good. Yeah, it was not a good movie. It was not as organic either. It was like, okay, you get to the spot and you're gonna fight these guys where the guy goes Chained with his Dolanets

Yeah, it was all it was a dnd. It was a dnd. Yeah, it was a TS or it was a TS are published module. Yeah In movie four. Oh, what is what it is? They didn't have didn't have to have to say sharp remember they had to rescue Malik from the the the cannibals Oh, yeah, the guys are all painted yeah yeah yeah it's it's again totally and uh... no they have been no they had to met rescue um... a cure not malloc malloc have a line as though he fucking knows a cure to that's what got me like malloc was way too familiar with everyone

like like what all what all the hell happened between the first movie the second like i want i want i want an interstitial film. So I saw that that film. Yeah, I saw that film with my dad in the theater. And at that time, we had many, like, I think by that time, I, when, when did it come out? 84? 84. So it was, it was this before or after the poster and you vomited all over the couch This is before this is after because this is the same year that my little brother was born All right, so dad is fully into the family um, and he took me to see this movie and I mean I was I was six Uh, when he took me to see it, okay, and uh, and we'd already seen barbarian and it vomited not on the poster, but all over the pillow.

And so we went to see it. And I asked him where Subatai was, and his response was, when you hang out with the hero, it doesn't go well for you. Like he told me that. Your dad was deep. Yeah. He's a smart fella. Shit. But yeah, he told me that. Your dad was deep. Yeah, he's a smart fellow.

Shit. But yeah, he told me like that was his explanation of like sometimes when he hang out the hero, it ain't going to go well for you. And I'm like, oh shit. It's, it is dangerous being around the hero. That's profound. Yeah. Like damn.

Yeah. So my students that all the time in Greek mythology, I'm like, if you're hanging out, if you have a chance to hang out with a demigod, run other way because you're just gonna be on a device like yeah well yeah yeah that's yeah you're gonna get fridged yeah so so anyway so I mean so so it was it was a more entertaining movie it had Olivia Davo uh plan the princess which was certainly appealing to 12-year-old me she got a razz is still appealing I think uh huh I think She got a razzy. Is it still appealing? I think. Uh huh. I think she got a razzy for it.

A razzy? Yeah, it's probably dead. Yeah. I'm not gonna say it wasn't deserved. Nope. But it was fun to see her in the wonder years a few years later. I was like, oh, it's you.

Oh, yeah. And then it started tracking where she's the baby Q. I was like, I cool. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, sorry. And and we're in light, like I said, Will Chamberlain played a pretty good heavy. He did. But but Millius didn't have anything to do with the second movie. He had he had fucked off to do other stuff.

Will Chamberlain is also not the tallest guy in that movie. The wizard? No, evil evil. No, the guy who played that guy. The horn creature. Oh, yeah, that was that was on the giant. That makes it. Bullshit. Dead serious. How that connection happened? That's Andre the fucking. Okay, so you've heard you've okay, you've heard the stories about Wil Chamberlain, because Wil Chamberlain wrote about that movie Yeah, in his memoir. I did not read that. Yeah. Oh, you haven't heard that. No, tell me. So briefly, so Arnie and Andre were friends from somewhere back previously, and so on, on the movie,

they went to Wilton. They were like, hey, come with us. We're gonna go out drinking. We're gonna go out to a bar. And of course, Wilton Chamberlain was like, you know, seven feet tall. I heard Tali was big dude, right? Yeah.

And he's like, all right, yeah, fine. I can, you know, Arnold is muscular, but he's, you know, shorter than I am. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So those, this is an audio medium. You guys have to have, don't have the advantage of seeing it, but Damien has found a photo from presumably from the set or set adjacent of Arnold and Wilt and Andre hanging out and what strikes me with those photos is the Wilt is almost as tall as Andre. Yes. And Arnold looks like Wolverine standing amongst the rest of the X-Men because he's only six-one or on Tally. He's only taller than me by nature, too.

Yeah, and the other two guys are seven- What about Tally? Yeah. And and, and, anyway, will will was like, oh, yeah, all right, I'll go drink with these guys, whatever, a couple of whatever, you know, thinking he was going to be able to like no one, no one drinks Andre under the table. No, and, and, and he, he wound up, he, had an OSHIT moment about an hour into the evening, where he realized these two are fucking psychos, like, oh my god, they're madmen.

And Andre was doing his party trick where he'd ask a couple of ladies to sit on his forearms and he'd lift them. Right. With just his biceps. Yes. You know? Yeah. And drinking and drinking and drinking and Arnold

is just drinking and they're like taken down gallons of beer and whatever else they're drinking. Oh yeah. And the following morning he showed up on set thinking like wishing for death. Yes Like like the hangover was excruciating and And he thought that the two of them were gonna give him no end of trouble Mm-hmm like he thought he was gonna get such a hard time. He was like, oh you laid-weight you're a little basketball player

You don't know what you can but but in point of rectal factor was oh, yeah, you did really well like yeah No, you can come out with us, man. Oh, factor was oh yeah, you did really well like yeah, no, you can come out of this Man, oh, you know, yeah, come on man. You know they were like oh, yeah, no, you know most most normals can't can't hang right you You know, yeah, you had to quit early, but like you're not us. You made it an hour, you know, yeah You made it you made it an hour and a half or whatever it was you know and so yeah, but In another episode, this is where I'm gonna close it out, but in another episode, I can go into comparing

this movie, 82's Conan, to the 2011 Conan movie. Oh yes. Which is totally worth doing, but that's outside my thesis for this series. I'll just note that I absolutely loved the 2011 movie. I enjoyed it. For all most of reasons. Because to me, it felt more like a Howard story

and less like a right-wing philosophy tract. Mm, I can see that. You know, and now that I said that, I have an excuse to watch both movies again for research. Good time for it. So yeah. Yeah, you know, so now that we've gotten through all of this, what is your takeaway?

What does this leave you thinking about? What is the lesson you've pulled out of all this? I the the thing that i said that made you go cockyed about the riddle of steel uh... is is a gem and i think i'm going to rest on that for a bit but also um... just the the you you looked at it and it's just it's a subtle shift and it's one that most won't think to do until they listen to this episode, I think, and well done for it. But it's a subtle shift and it's the shift of going from how to put the idea of civilization versus barbarism and shifting to individualism versus collectivism.

And I see aspects of both of those things in each other, but I think the way that you threaded that needle was really well done. And I think you're absolutely right. I think it's also, I mean, if you really look at Conan the Barbarian and you even just compare it to the Destroyer, which is its own show. Yeah, oh yeah. I think the addition of pant leggings

is really when you start to see your heroes get watered down. Because anyone who wears pants, they're going to get killed. But Coynean, not so much. Talk so much. Yeah. So, yeah. I see that. Yeah.

What's worth noting here, one more difference between the movies and the stories is there are any number of places in the stories where a very great point is made by Howard of Conan picking up a course-elative chainmail or picking up, you know, putting on a breastplate, finding, you know, a leather breastplate, finding grieves, finding a helmet, right? Whatever, and putting it the fuck on. In fairness, in the Battle of the Mountains, he was armed to the teeth and armored to the teeth. He wore pants with like weird, flappy things that came down below, kind of like what Ray wore.

And he had armor on and he even had a helmet on. Like he did all that. Now, the helmet was part of his subterfuge, but you're right. Like, most of the time, he goes into battle and doesn't get cut. And it's like, wow, way to go. But in that battle of the mounds,

which is its own track on the CD that I also own, it's, he is very well armed, but you're right. Other than that, he's virtually naked. He's a pro wrestler. And then in Barbarian, not Barbarian, destroyer. He goes through the whole movie without a shirt on. Now, the only other thing I want to go, well, and that's his mother maker, let's be real. The only other thing I want to make sure that I touch upon that's a parallel here, is this. Cohen Anne comes out in 82, his other movie is 84, and it really sets kind of a tone in a genre.

Hulk Hogan becomes the world champion in 84. In 85, 86, he is fighting against individual guys. But in 86 he starts fighting against the Hinen family, a collection of heels under one charismatic leader who they all do what he says even though he's very smart and they're all very strong and they all take their turns losing to him but they'll often gang up on Hulk Hogan, who is only wearing trunks. All the rest of them are wearing, with the exception of one of them, are wearing some sort of leggings or a singlet, because Andre wears a singlet and what's his face, King

Kong Bundy wears a thing that makes him look like Shamu, a doublet, I guess. But you have this same thing and Hulk Hogan comes out to the music, I am a real American. So it's all very much what you're talking about. That individualism against collective malaise, that Reaganism against the unions. It's all the things that you're talking about. Oh, and also the Soviet Union. And Hogan had beaten up foreign people from 85 to 86. Those were most of the bad guys he fought. And then he starts fighting on the Heen and family for the most part. So another parallel, that's all in the ether at that time.

And that's, I guess, we'll leave it because it's pro wrestling. So there you go. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for this. This was fun.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I had a lot of fun putting this together, doing all the research. So yeah, no, I've had fun doing it. So that leaves us with a question that we end on, what are you reading right now? I picked up a copy of the National Geographic Atlas of the Roman World and it's got 30 different maps of the Roman world inside. So I have just been cheesing over that. It's pretty cool. Very cool. It's pretty cool. Very cool.

It's light reading, but it's fun reading. So that's what I've heard. No, that worked. How about you? What are you reading? I am rereading Dune. And for the podcast, because I'm still trying to find a biting angle

to get into it for this for. But I have noted how very florid Herbert's writing actually is, which I had forgotten about. His dialogue is straight out of a buck Roger cereal. Oh, is this not a wondrous thing that I, the Baron Harconan do? Is like, that is the introduction line for the villain of the book. Wow. Like, when was Dune written? I got to go back and take a look at 60s okay I was gonna say it's very Stanley it is it's it's the same kind of Florida kind of kind of kind of you know arch kind

of language and I think I just found well I might have just found my angle, but that's for another time. But that is another story But that but that is another story All right, well before a geek history of time I'm Damien Harmonie you can find me at duh harmony on the Twitter or At duh harmony on the Insta and you could even just type in my name on YouTube and find some of my comedy, including a performance that I did at the Apollo temple in Syracuse. Who are you? And what are you gonna say to say goodbye?

My name is Ed Blalock. You can find me at EH Blalock on Twitter. You can also find me at Mr. Blalock on the Instagram. And you can find the two of us together at Geek History Time on the Twitter machine. And until next time for a Geek History of Time, keep rolling 20s.