A Geek History of Time - Episode 99 - Cardassian Jurisprudence Part I

Episode Date: March 27, 2021

I'm not here to poke holes and suspended this belief. Anyway, they see some weird shit. They decide to make a baby. Now, Muckin' Merchant. Who gives a fuck? Oh, Muckin' which is a trickle, you know, baby. You know what I mean? Well, you know, uh, you really like it here. Uh, it's kind of nice.

And uh, it's not as cold as Muckin' on the floor. So, yeah, sure, I think we're gonna settle. If I'm a peasant boy who grabs sword out of a stone, yeah, I'm able to open people up. You will, yeah. Anytime I hit them with it, right? Yeah. So my cleave landing will make me a cavalier.

Good day, Spree. If Sysclothon it was empty headed, plubian trash, it It's really good and gruey. Because cannibalism and murder, we'll back just a little bit, build walls to keep out the rat heads. And it's a little bit gruey. A thorough intent doesn't exist.

Some people stand up quite a bit, some people stay seeing a lot of the rats. Let me just... and even in California, also teaching one section of remedial reading. Through the magic of the internet for another little bit less than a month until I get to go back in person. And aside from that, March of Doom, in my future, the big news for the purposes of this podcast anyway, is that I think I mentioned my wife and I are now back in a role-playing game. Again, we're playing D&D with a group of friends. And we're about to get into a fight with a group of fantasy space Nazis.

I like it. Yeah. So anybody out there who is familiar with the Greyhawk setting from advanced engines and dragons might recognize the Scarlet Brotherhood who are literally a group of pasty-faced blonde human and specifically racial human like their their ethnic group supremacists. And yeah, my character is the one who spotted who they were and explained to the rest of the party. That's who these people are. And the party paladin immediately said,

what do we need to do to find a way to legally pick a fight with them? And our our kinder bard immediately said, I'm singing insulting songs at them right now. And that's where we stopped things for this most recent session. So who are you and what have you got going on? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a Latin teacher up here in Northern California. And I, let's see, through the magic of the internet, I will be doing that.

Hopefully until the end of the year. We will see because bargaining is ongoing as I speak literally. Yes, I'm literally getting those you you you all listening have not been here to see it but he is he is literally looking at his phone. And of course the only reason I'm able to say that right now is because thankfully we are both now fully vaccinated and at full efficacy. And so here we are back in person again and I cannot begin to tell you how much of a relief it is that I'm going to be talking over you and we're going to be tripping over one another so much less frequently or more effectively. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, better way of putting it more effectively.

So yeah, I'm very, very, very happy to be back in person. How do you like the recording studio? Well, I've told you before that I have House envy. Yes. And now I have to tell you that I have really, really massive office envy as well. For those of you, of course, listening, it's not a visual medium. If you're not following his YouTube channel in progress, you haven't seen the interior of this place. It's a really lovely

shade of green. I really like the paint job on the walls. And of course, it is heavily decorated in a very intense Star Wars style, which I also, I'm working on catching up to you in the in the lightsaber collection category. Yeah. But I'm not there yet. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. That right there is the Star Wars bookshelf.

Yes. Yes. I need to recalibrate some bookshelves quite honestly because I could open up this space a lot more. So thank you for coming to Damien's interior decorating. Yeah. Well yeah. podcast. No, you know, so another fun fact you mentioned space Nazis. Yes. And I heard tell that you are actually capable of fighting Nazi zombies now. I am. That is a better

fact. I will be very shortly once I actually figure out how to get the game system hooked up and running. So, Damien and producer George colluded with my wife to deliver my birthday present from them a few days early. My birthday is coming up next week. It'll be my second, 23rd, which Damian is no doubt, going to have a great deal of fun here in the moment, mocking me for. Yeah, yeah. But the two of them have been playing Call of Duty together for some significant length of time.

Since my, since before my marriage. Wow. Really? OK. since I started working at No, okay, no no since since the beginning of my marriage because it was since I started working at the high school I work at now okay, okay, all right so so for a significant amount of time the two of them have been Connecting and and playing call of duty

over the interwebs. And they were talking about picking that up in a group chat that we're all in a few days ago. And of course, I have been Xbox deprived and have not been a Call of Duty player. And so today, they delivered me an Xbox and a stack of Call of Duty games with the understanding that yes, you've been drafted. And of Call of Duty games with the understanding that yes

You've been drafted and by the way this is the one that has zombie Nazis in it. Yes, to which my response was Well, I know I know what mode I'll be playing in now now to explain just a little bit more when we play Call of Duty We don't play with the outside world Because most of the people you can if you want to find out how many people have slept with your other. Oh, fuck no. But I teach 12 year olds. I don't need to be playing video games with them

over the internet on my office. Whether they're 12 chronologically or not, they're all 12th. But well, to be fair, we're not that much older mentally. No, but like we could get into a PG 13 mentally. Yeah, we're potentially more socialized They their goal is NC 17. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so But yeah, we actually don't play with the outside world at all because most of the people who play call of duty

With the exception of all of our listeners. Yes, of course. Yeah, and any of our old white story call of duty of all of our listeners. Yes, of course. And any of our old stories to our Call of Duty. You guys are fine, you're not the problem. But the rest of the culture around Call of Duty is just not worth your engagement. And so we play a lot of private matches. And that's why we got you the ones that we do.

Because those are the ones we're George and I will just produce George and I will just relax and vibe with. Nice. And we're really curious as to what adding a third person to the Nazi zombie hunting will accomplish. Because he and I have things dialed in pretty well. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm not going to add. I'm going to be the guy tripping over his own hand grenades. It's totally fine. Yeah. Yeah. So and we'll play a few where we all shoot at each other and George will, you know, and we'll play all shot good matches and stuff like that. It'll be a lot of fun.

It'll be a lot of fun. But yeah, I was in the middle of doing the thing, so I could never really fully appreciate your reaction. I never recorded it because she came with me. She was fully masked and all that. So what was your initial impression to that? And by the way, for our listeners, if you don't wanna hear this, you can probably,

I'm gonna say skip ahead, we're at seven minutes, 40 seconds or so. I'm gonna say skip ahead to about 15 minutes and check in. Yeah, that's a probably good plan. So, yeah, I wanna hear your reaction. Humboldt. Okay. More than anything else.

Now you open the door and you saw me. Yeah, and that was kind of a shock. Because the story that I had been told all week was your birthday gift is coming on Friday. Okay. And there have already been a couple of packages that are actually gifts from her that have arrived and for the last two weeks I've been told don't open anything Like unless unless you can look at it and recognize that it is in fact cat food. Yeah, don't open anything Like okay, I find good move producer George and good move Ed's wife. Yeah, so

So yeah open the door and and you were there with your daughter. Like, oh, hey, how you doing? Like, okay, this is new. Yeah. And there was kind of a split second of, oh, shit, I don't have my mask on. Because, you know, the last year has been the last year and then I remembered, oh right, no. We're both teachers, one of the professional advantages there is we now we're safe to hang out.

We don't have to worry about that. And then I noticed that you had the gigantic bag and I was, and then I don't know if you, well, no, you did notice the first thing I did was I turned to my wife and said what did you do? Yeah, yeah and and yeah, no

The the biggest the biggest takeaway from it is how fortunate I am To have made the friends that I have made I Am I am very very grateful to the two of you. That was a huge thing. And the fact that you would go to those lengths to include me in something that is something that the two of you have been doing

means an awful lot. And I am, I really appreciate it. I'm really humbled. Good. And yeah, just thank you, producer George. Especially you're not here with us, but thank you. He will be so much better as a big deal. I'm hoping. Yes, yes. Fingers crossed. I really, he's got his appointment for his first. So yeah, excellent. Now I will say, most credit is due to producer George. I have lost my imagination, even more so during COVID, and during all my efforts at bargaining,

I don't have much in the way of imagination. He hit me with this idea, he's like, hey, what can I count on from you in terms of help and support? I said, I have no problem You know however you want to split it. I'm happy to split it whichever way you see fit Yeah, if you take the reins and you make it all happen I will be the delivery boy and that's precisely what that's exactly how it's right out. Yeah, yeah

It's it's gonna be awesome. So you need to come over the good gamer tag on there Okay, well, I've had sort of my internet nickname for years, you know, and if that's the one you want to use, probably one you can use, that's fine. I mean, assuming it hasn't been taken yet, but. Well, and there's also that. With the specific digits on the,

I'm not gonna say what it is. Yeah, here right now, until we get to a place where we're like, you know, do we want to invite people to join us, which we're not there yet. No, prove yourselves. Yeah, people to join us, which we're not there yet. No. So, you know, prove yourself. Yeah.

Prove yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Show that you are worthy. And then we'll see about, you know, doing something. But, Italy, I'm talking to you. All right. So, well, that's awesome.

It's really cool to be a part of that. I'm really glad that we got to do that. And yeah, just, George was very, very happy. I know I was very, very happy, and I cannot wait. My fingers are crossed actually for a Saturday night or a Sunday night, like soon, tomorrow, or Sunday. I'll see what I can do. Yeah, yeah, please. You know, I mean, you know, Lee has a lot of projects.

She's working on it now. Sure. That, you know, my mean, you know, Lee has a lot of projects she's working on right now that you know, I kind of say my favorite moment of that all of that, which is like, this means I get to play more Switch. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sitting there going like, Ed, don't blow this, don't blow this, like, play it cool, don't be like, well, of course, be like, okay, honey, because I'm stuck in negotiation mode. Yeah.

So, just like, yeah, Ed you've turned into such a cynic. Yes, yes, yes, to it, but say, okay, but sometimes I want to be in the bedroom to play. Yeah. You know, and then she'll think that the bedroom is the best place to play. Yeah. And you can have the big TV downstairs. Yeah. Oh, well, here's the deal.

The thing is, that's not actually a problem. Oh, because when when she winds up getting getting on the switch a lot of the time she actually prefers playing it in handheld mode. Oh, which boggles my fucking mind. Well, she's probably used to iPads and phones. She is very nice. So there you go. That's true. We grew up on consoles. Yeah. And part of the issue also, I figured out actually after trying to play Breath of the Wild on the handheld, I can do it. But part of my issue is, for those of you who haven't ever seen a photograph of me or seen video, it would be more likely.

I have Duane Syndrome. You've noticed, of course, my left eye wants to go off the field. Marty, you do weird things. Yeah. And it's actually that my right eye is the one that's fucked up. My left eye is the one that has more range of motion.

It's actually my right eye is kind of semi-paralyzed. My left eye can move everywhere. And the thing is, whenever I get into close-up work, I wind up focusing with one eye. Okay. And so if I'm trying to play the game like that, it's actually easier on my eyes to be looking at a screen at a mid distance rather than trying to do it on the handheld. But she's like, no, I can lie on the couch.

Nice. Oh, dude, that's a cuddle session for both of you. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, sort of, to the extent that we can cuddle while I've got to set headphones on and I'm swearing at you and producer George. Oh, you'll find a way. You'll find a way.

I'm sure. My dog's girl made out with me for 47 minutes. Oh, wow. Well, I counted. I counted because I was playing a basketball game and that was almost the entirety of the game because it's 12 minutes and quarters. So he was much younger. This is his puppy hood, but this is why he became my dog because I allowed him to suffocate for 47 minutes on my beard. Wow. Everybody's grossed out by that, but I was like, what's the big deal?

I'm just sitting there and he's looking at my face. Yeah, it's fine. Well, there you go. But yeah, that's nice. Nice. Yeah. All right, so let's see if there's any other updates worthy of the name because we are hitting the 15 minute mark.

I called that perfectly. Yeah, you did. I don't think so. No. I think we're mostly, everybody's pretty caught up. Yeah, the world is slightly less bad. Yeah. And people are starting to get overconfident,

which I'm worried about. Yeah. But you know what, let's take their minds off of it tonight. Yeah, here we go. I'm surprising you with an episode tonight. Yes, you are. I am. I have no preconceived understanding,

no preview at all. And when I say it, you'll be giddy. I'm okay. So the title of this episode is, this is podcast number 99. All right. Oh, this is the thing I wanted to say. Sorry, stutterstep folks. I'm not editing this out.

But the last time we were in person was for episode 50. Yes. It's either 49 or 50. But it was mid-conan. Yeah. And it was, you know, it aired in April of last year. So I mean, this has literally been more than a year. Yeah.

Because then a few episodes later we did a Washer Dam hands episode. Yeah. been more than a year. Yeah. Because then a few episodes later, we did a Wash Your Damned Hands episode. Yeah. Or before I forget. Yeah. But yeah, so this is this is the first time I'm hoping that this is more the norm. And that every once in a while, if needs be, we can record remotely. Yeah. But I'm hopeful.

I'm hoping. Fingers crossed. All right. So here it is, episode 99. Yes. Cardassian justice and the trial of Horatius. Okay, I am here for it. I am here for it. All right. So in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, the main antagonist for the long haul are always the Cardassians. Yes. Okay, there's Kim.

There's their mom. There's Kylie, I think. Yeah. Her Kendall. Yeah. And I think there's a few guest experiences by Paris and Nicole. Yeah.

Yeah. And well, and Kanye shows up as a sporting villain. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like the psycho killer. Yeah, he's part of you're on. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's like the psycho killer. Yeah, he's part of the Gemini arc. Yeah, well yeah. Well, wait, okay, hold on.

Is he Gemini arc or is he obsidian order? Oh neither. Okay. Neither he's the brain. Oh, okay, yeah, good point. Okay, good day. So, but the Cardassians were originally introduced in the Star Trek the Next Generation and they were given some basic species premises in my two favorite episodes of Star Trek ever okay the chain of command

Okay, in that duology one of the only other captains to ever give a captains log on the Enterprise Besides the main two Kirk and Pic, was Edward Gellico. And he summed up the Cardassians very hawkishly for the federation. He said, quote, Cardassians are like timber wolves, predators, bold and large numbers, cautious by themselves. And with an instinct, with an instinctive need to establish a dominant position in any social gathering. So again, that's found in chain of command. I believe

it's season six. That sounds about right. Yeah. And it's the governor of Mars from Total Recall. So that's where you get, you're really, you're introduced to them a few other times, but this is where you really get a chunk of meat from the card assets. Yeah, well, the really famous episode, one of the most powerful bits of acting, Patrick Stewart ever did, the there are four lights episode was a cardacian's episode. Well, that's the chain of command. Oh, that is chain of command. Yes, right, right. Okay. I was I was separating the two threads in my head. Yeah, no, right. You you think about the torch, the two-man play between him and David Warner, which, wow, an amazing

bottle episode. Yeah, a pair of episodes. Really? Yeah. And, honestly, Jellico does a fantastic job, too. He really does. Oh, yeah. It's also the first time that Diana Troy has to wear a uniform that's not

a skirt or her maroon or her purple silver or her teal. She's a counselor. Yeah. But like, why is your counselor on the bridge all the time? That's a little weird. And why is she, if she's on the bridge, why, you know, and he actually says I want more decor and she starts wearing that, and then she starts going to that well more often. So, Kardashians throughout both series were hierarchical, with all of their citizens serving the will of the state, and with the family being ruled absolutely by the parents, usually the father. An old Kardashian was to be respected and slightly feared, as getting to an old age meant

guile, cunning, power, strength, and wisdom. Cardassian social cultures seem to be one of shifting alliances, too. Behind the veil, power, patronage. So in one minute, you're in charge of a vast amount of Cardassian governmental power, and the next you're laid low because you misjudged a political rival. Yeah, and there was always this very keen sense of a macchi vellion, like in a literal, the prince kind of sense of like, it always struck me that being a cardassian must be fucking exhausting. Yes.

Yes. You have to remember that they're not wired the same way humans are. Exactly. But to put a human brain through that kind of social order was just thinking about it was. Yeah, you're reading psychopathic humans. Yeah. Or successful Cardassians. Or work it as, yeah. You know, you know.

It reminds me of an exercise that we did in my teaching credential program called Bafa Bafa. And if you look up Bafa Bafa, you'll probably find it. And it's wild because it teaches you about cultural assumptions. It's very clearly based on nomadic tribe mentality, which was kind of interesting and trading and stuff like that. But it was interesting. I wish I was less arrogant. I could have gotten more out of it back then. But don't we all wish that about our younger self?

Yeah, and certainly about my younger self. It's something we have in common. So also if you're a cardassian, your allies will abandon you in favor of whose in power or it'll be their peril too. Yeah. Loyalty is not a Kardashian virtue. It is to an extent. The extent to which you fall. Yeah. You will expect your friends to bounce out. And the ones that don't you cling fastly to them until it benefits you not to. And yet, through opportunities, you could claw your way back into power by service to the state that is an undeniable state.

Families regularly had intense rivalries similar to blood feuds, but they were far more pragmatic when it came to the acquisition of power. Now a Carmen Cardassian creed is, wow, there's a lot of literacy. Alliteration is family is all. Yes. A Cardassian who did not tend to his family wasn't seen as a Cardassian worthy of the name, and it was a huge mark of shame to ignore one's family unless it's in service to the state. You could ignore your family in service to the state. You could ignore your family in service to the state. You could sacrifice your family in service to the state.

Just out of curiosity, do we know how many times a Cardassian father could sell his son into slavery before the son was free of him? That, you know, I didn't have slavery. Okay. Yeah, Cardassians didn't have slavery. Well, yeah, but the parallel is to the 12 tablets of Robin Law orr or Carl.

Yeah, oh my God. I teach that unit literally the first thing every year. It's really hard not to. Like holy crap. Yeah, I've translated some of them. Like the Romulans don't aren't this or the store. And they're called Romulans.

Yeah, wow. Wow. You know, I never, it never occurred to me watching the show, but now you're putting all this out. Oh my God. Oh yeah. Well, because the Romulans were Gene Rodmeri going, what if Rome was in space? Yes.

It literally was his concept of it. And then like after he died, the creators of DS9, we're like, here hold my hold my sorry and Brandy. You know, hold my, hold my Romulan ale. Ooh, it's not legal though. They actually had episodes in DS9 where they talked about it being legalized. Now that there was a alliance between Romulans and the Federation against the Cardassians. It's wild.

Okay, so if you clawed your way back, that was great. How to put this, bloodline absolutely mattered, but adoption was not uncommon. However, orphans were thoroughly abandoned by the state if their family died in service to the state. Oh, well. Yeah. It was a matter of personal choice,

whether or not to take an astray. Okay. Yeah. And this was likely due to the heavy emphasis on military conquest as part of the Cardassian state standard policy and the influence of military and everyday society. So if you were an orphan, you might be able to work your way into the

grunt position. So that kind of backfills. Okay. You know, the the nameless faceless masses. And the state, the state was largely defined by its military heritage. Now here's a question that occurs to me thinking about it. How frequently do we actually see a common Cardassian? Like a grunt Cardassian because the main Cardassian characters, I remember from D.C. are all of them either current or former officers of some meaningful rank. Like the equivalent of colonel or above, you know, and, and, well, you know, I'm just a tailor. No, no, you're, you're not.

Oh, Garek. Yeah. Garek, you know, we find out that no, no, Garek, you know, was, was formerly somehow very, very highly connected at the uber highest levels of super secret deep state intelligence for the Cardassians. And so what occurs to me is, if you read most novels of the Napoleonic Navy, Master and Commander series and, you know, Horatio Hornblower and all those kind of things,

the main characters in those are always officers. You don't have a novel written from the point of view of an ordinary British sailor. Right. Simply because they didn't have a lot of time to have very much of an internal life. Yeah. And they're most of their life was commanded by others. So you kind of, for drama, you need somebody who can actually make decisions. Yeah, and so, so the, every, everything you're stating about Cardassian society has, as one of its Bafa Bafa kind of assumptions that we're talking about, people with a level of lever pulling ability is in the Cardassian state. And so that just suddenly, suddenly that jumped out at me

from the wallpaper like, okay, wait a minute. You mentioned about orphans being used to backfill the Feeces was hoard of ground pounder troops. Like, well, okay, wait a minute, is their experience of Cardassian society the same? Like within a Cardassian society the same. Like within a Cardassian infantry regiment, we know that, like we know from what we've seen in the show, the officer cast

are all gonna be angling with one another, they're all gonna have, you know, they're gonna have like no other. And alpha and abeta. Yeah, you know, there's gonna be the alpha and abeta and all the most junior officers are gonna be angling to try to get into a position to take over when, you know, inevitably somebody dies.

Right. You know, but then so is that also happening like at the NCO level? Is that happening amongst, amongst squad sergeants, you know, is that happening amongst like ordinary troops in the barracks? Are there clicks? Sure. Is there any kind of like, is there a, you know, is that happening amongst like ordinary troops in the barracks? Are there clicks? Sure. Is there any kind of like, is there a common thing in society is like this would be that, you know, there's a warrior brotherhood or a warrior cult. Soldiers are members of some kind of

for common soldiers, our members of a fraternity. Roman soldiers were myth-rises. Right. Right. You know, and so the question is, like, I have a few answers to some of that. One, you do see at least one commoner, Mila. That's Gary's housekeeper. However, she was the confidant of Gary's father who never claimed him, but then it turns out it was, whose name was in Auburn Tain. So she was a commoner, but she was kind of like Tiro was to Sisero. Okay. And then you have Demar, who was the, how to put this, he would have been the Labanus to Goldicott's Caesar. Okay. Except that he stayed loyal to him, not to the state. Yeah. And Demar, when you first meet Demar, he is either the pilot or a tack officer on a freighter, because Ducat has been laid so low that now he's captaining, like, just basically a trawler. And Demar is an officer on that.

Okay. Still an officer, but like really like, I mean, you're talking like way far in the province kind of thing. And he rides Ducat's coattails until Ducat goes off the deep end. And Demar keeps going. And Demar has, I think Demar is one of the most fascinating characters.

Everybody loves Garrick and I get why. He's fun, but Demar is far more of an interesting sine wave. And he just, you know, I loved when Borsk Fey law went out like a fucking G. Yeah. And I think Demar does the same. Okay. But, but I don't think he actually goes out. I think he ends up being there to sign. And also there is Ducat's daughter who's half Bajoran, half Cardassian. I don't remember her name off the top of my head, but you know listeners, you know where to find us. But she by virtue of the fact that she is a half-blood in their culture, she is seen as a very bad thing, and she's the reason that DuCott is laid low, and he actually puts all his eggs into that basket

for a while, but then as he starts to work his way back up, she ends up being something that he sacrifices along with his sanity, sadly, for a little while. DuCott, fascinating character too, but I really like Demar more. So yes, the Kardashians, as we were saying, very Roman obviously, the males tended to be the ones who sought political and military power, and the females tended to be the ones who went into science and technology, although there was plenty across pollination, but there were some fun episodes

where the a couple of Cardassian women get on there On to the deep space nine and they're working with Miles yeah, Brian and and because they're arguing she thought that he was flirting and she makes the move on him Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, um because because that's how that's how they get down Damn right and speaking of that when it comes to socializing Debate and argument is the main form of discourse. Heated, bitter, debate and discourse. Getting the other side to divulge more than you do is the goal. Making it so that your conversation companion is in a weaker position than you are during

the conversation. And thereafter, that's the goal. Well, because it's all about dominance. Right. So very Roman. and you are during the conversation, and thereafter, that's the goal. Well, because it's all about dominance. Right. So very Roman. And so very predator. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Now, bureaucratically, the Cardassians were asciduous record keepers. They kept track of everything everywhere always. They knew every person they kept in their camps when they, you know, they came out to the New York Times. And we could do a whole episode on how the New York Times are at once the Palestinians and European Jews. And, you know, the mountain people of South Eastern Asia.

And, I mean, it's just there's so many things So many parallels that they pulled in to make that But the Kardashians kept track of everything and while most Kardashians maintained an honorable, beautiful image most Kardashians in power also use that position of power to line their own pockets or to gain favors from those over whom they had power. And because that was accepted, that was the cultural norm. Yes, just like it was in the imperial period of Roman history. And if you got a position in government, part of the the past shape of that was now I I'm gonna get to take these plums and keep some of them and hand the others to my favor.

Exactly. In order to then cultivate my power base to expand my power base further by doing this. And you know, if, if, you know, the army goes without getting properly paid for, I don't know, a month. It's okay. You know, we'll just conquer another tribe. We'll be all right, right?

Yeah. And then they stopped conquering and that became problematic. Yeah. There, their army went from being a money-making machine to a financial liability. And that, ladies and gentlemen, class is when we start seeing the decay of the Western Roman Empire. So, yeah, yeah, wrong, which leads to the first civil war. Bribes were common even at the expense of the state. Yes.

As long as you maintain that visage of looking. Yeah, the outward appearance was the important thing. Now here's a fun thing. The use of torture was a common method of handling prisoners of the state in order to extract information from them and sometimes simply to assert your dominance over them. When a Cardassian dies, so I just going to put a pin in that toilet thing for a bit. When a Kardashian dies, their funerals are open to the public, though privately, the dying person would often pass all his or her secrets onto a loved one, so that the next generation could hopefully destroy the family's enemies. That goes beyond Roman to being Sicilian.

Totally. Alright, I need you to understand. Donna Cosimo is the one who, you know, all of that. No, no, no, you need, fuck them up. That's your job. Well, we just lost our Italian listener. Yeah, I'm not. Sorry.

So philosophically, the Cardassians had abandoned their religion for a secular totalitarianism long, long before any of the series started, because a plague that provided the environment for a military dictatorship was, was extant and that military dictatorship came in and provided for the people materially. Yes. Now politically, Cardassians had long been ruled by something called the Cardassian Union, which was a council of elected aristocrats who made all the decisions. But over time, a military dictatorship, the Cardassian Central Command, CCC, came to usurp that council, keeping them on as ceremonial and a traditional body, but making all of the real decisions. These are in the Senate.

Sorry, you okay? Sorry, sorry. It's quite alright. The assembly. And within that, there was a group called the Obsidian Order, which was their version of an intelligence branch that survived and thrived on entry. And they made all the real decisions. Yeah.

Is there a group maybe that that reminds you of might have worn really dark purple? Oh, decided to replace people and they decided to replace people. The Cardassian Union was then used to maintain the bureaucracy and keep things humming along for the real decision makers. Okay. Now during their war with the Klingon Empire, the Cardassian Obsidian order was fractured, and the Cardassian Central Command lost power, and the Cardassian Union's ruling council was re-established. However, they were again usurped, and Cardassia fell into a bit of a civil war.

By the end of it, a single Cardassian took total control and restructured things so that he'd be in complete control, because he had the backing of another foreign power, the Dominion. Right. And all of that is just to get you to what I'm really here to talk to you about. The Cardassians are more space Romans than the Romulans ever were. And their justice system is a very specifically modeled justice system on a court system that the Romans used during the trial of Heratius. Okay. Alright, so a bit of history about Rome. Okay. In 753 BCE, also known as one AUC

from Aburbe Condita, the founding of the city. The Romulus and Remus, the boys who'd been ordered drowned as infants, and were instead put near a river hoping they'd die instead of being held under. They get nursed by a wolf until a shepherd comes along and raises them as his own and they had a building slash bird-watching contest to see where the center of their new swamp city would be. Yes. When they grew up, Remus wanted the Avatar and Hill, Romulus wanted the Palatine Hill. And each one had their followers and they decide to go with what the bird said. Remus saw six vultures first, and Romulus saw 12 vultures second.

And so it being the bigger, since this is the beginning of Rome, you already have a conflict over the rules. Six came first, but 12 is bigger, so which one is best? Yeah, okay. So it's time to kill your brother so you can find out.

And since Remus literally means or, as in the thing that goes in the water to steer you, and Romulus is in a Truskin word that means, he who shall found Rome, I'm sure you could guess who won that fight. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Yeah. Caesar Steve Averit had Riemem to Raris. That's how I can remember the Riemus is the war. So anyway, but wow, that's not the version that I learned as a kid of why Romulus killed Riemus. I heard that it was that Romulus had started building a wall and it was apparently insufficient to Remus' way of looking at things and he mocked Romulus for doing it and so Romulus got angry and stabbed him.

So there's a few things that I compressed. But Livy does this all the time. He says, from there, the story is twofold. And he says this a number of times. Like he says this when he's talking about whether or not a Skanias is the same a Skanias that came with Ineas or Ineas lost to Skanias in Troy and then he made a new a Skanias.

And then he even says, well, from whichever mother he came, this a Skanias, whichever guy he was, he started Albalonga. Okay. Yeah. But okay. So Romulus and Remus, they have this argument, they do that. It turns into a scuffle and Remus falls dead. Or, it's kind of like clue.

Yeah. Or Remus jumps over Romulus's walls when he's building them and if you jump over someone's walls You have cursed those walls to always be Surmountable and Romulus struck him dead then and there and said thus always to anyone who tries to scale my walls Which then ties into Rome as insurmountable power Exactly, okay, All right, okay. And I'm going to recommend a movie at the end of this. It's phenomenal.

I probably recommended it before, but I think it's just tremendous. And it has a third take, which I like even better. Okay. But, kill your brother. Romulus becomes the first king of bro. Bob's your uncle.

Kill your brother. And Romulus is kind of a fighter rogue for like 40 years. Okay. He's clever. He wins more by cunning and treachery than by sheer might. He can fight, but he comes up with a way to win every time. Yeah. Often involving guile. He also has kind of an Odysseus figure. Yes. Yes. And he's not as brilliant as Odysseus. Odysseus was acknowledged as being brilliant.

Romulus is just a little smarter enough every time. Okay. And that's what I love about the Romans was they're like, yeah, he's a total shit. But buddy won. Yeah, he figured out how to figure things out. Yeah, he broke the rules of war so that he could win. So it's cool. The way that he fights the vei is pretty cool. He pretends to turn tail and run. So I mean, he basically violates the rules of war as we know them. And then all of his guys are on either side of the path and they just mob the other guys.

Standard stuff. So he's a fighter rogue for like 40 years and he's in charge and He comes up with a way to get women for Rome This is the the rape of the seven women. Yes. Yes Which in a sense of course rape meaning technically meaning kidnapping. Yes, probably also Well, there's a part in livy. Yes, it is totally fucking rape. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna soften that blow. But in Lviv, a Roman historian writing about ancient Rome, he says that, first off, the verb rapio-roppero means to grab or to snatch, right?

So he's, they're grabbed. And he says that Romulus had gone around to all the other city states and said, hey, got any women. And they said, who are you? And he says, why were the Romans? And I, who are the Romans? And he says, well, we are. And I am their king. Who are the Romans? We are. I just asked who the fuck you were. Right. I'm the king of the Romans. That's try to keep up.

try to keep up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just ignore the topology moving on. Look totally. So we need we need women. We need women. Because the sausage fest down there.

And they said, well, where did you all come from? Now the thing was he'd put out like, you know, flyers earlier saying, hey, are you an escape slave, a convict? Someone who's been exiled? What do we have a place for you? But he can't tell these people. He can't say. Oh, we took your shittiest people

and put them in a class. Wait, wait, hold on. So the very founding of the city, yes, Rome was the Australia of the Italian peninsula. Not even the Australia though. Like, it's worse. It's worse. People weren't sent there on purpose. They were found and offered free, you know, like, hey, you could be a citizen of where? Rome was that

until, I'll come on over and check it out. See if you like it. It beats the shit out of like being hunted down, right? Yeah, it does. All right. Okay. Well, here you are. But then he's like, fuck, there's a lot of guys here. All right. You know what? It's odd when you take on the drifter's castaways and, you know, melcontents of other societies, that seems to skew mail. Yeah. Who would have thought? Whole lot of garfunkles, not many simons. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A whole lot of vanilla. Not a lot of vanilla. Not many millies.

So he goes there and he can't tell them, hey, we're the shithole that you like, you know, kicked off. So instead, they're like, so where'd you come from? He's like, we grew out of the earth. And all the city states are like, oh no, that tracks. That makes sense. I heard that.

My friend Frank, he told me. He found something like that. Yeah, okay, that's cool. Tell you what though, you're looking for women equal to yourselves, dig deeper. Oh, now here's Romulus. I'm about to destroy this man's whole career. But he decides, he's like, oh, okay, cool.

Thank you. Hey, Walks Away Cool is a cucumber. Planned something called the Consus Games. These are horse racing games designed to honor Neptune. If you live in a city, you don't skip out on an honoring Neptune thing, because he'll destroy your fucking city. Yeah, he'll wreck your shit.

He has the world's fair at his place for the Consus Games during the looper call. Okay. Oh, okay. So, and the looper call for those of you who don't know is the Proto Valentine's Day. It's where young men dress up in goat leggings and otherwise are naked and they run around with thongs of goat leather, dipped in goat blood and they whip women on the asses to make them fertile as any good society does. Yes. Right.

Clear. Which I love it because women like want to be fertile in these societies because then they have value to these Bronze Age societies, but they also are conditioned to want to run away from this. So I just imagine them like sticking their asses out a little extra when they run. No, no, please don't. You know, that way they can be fertile that year. And you got to do it every year. And it's just, yeah, it's a renewal. So, so during the loop recall, he, you know, gets, gets them everybody there. He says, oh, by the way, you know, we're having this thing. It's going to honor an afternoon. You need to bring your wives and your sisters up.

You really do. I mean, you guys are going to love it. And they're like, all right, yeah, no. We could see this working out. This would be cool, honey. Yeah, let's go. Let's bring our best basket. And so they go to Rome.

And he's like, check out all these empty houses we have for absolutely no one to live in because, you know, unfortunately, no one would send us people. But look at all this. And by the way, and he blows the signal, one to live in because, you know, unfortunately no one would, you know, send us people, but look at all this. And by the way, and he blows the signal and all the young boys who are running around, grab all the women and take them away. Now, you can't attack your hosts during the, the, the, the festival during the festival, because then you're going to piss off Neptune. And the Sabines are amongst the biggest groups to get fucked over by this.

Right. So eventually they come back. But before they come back, all the Sabine women are like, oh, the fuck? And Romney is like, he talks to them all and he says, look, we're really sorry. But if you want to blame anybody, blame your dads, I mean, cause we asked and they said, no. Okay. And then he says, tell you what though, if you stay, your children will be citizens of a city, which was big currency back then. Yeah.

And the women are like, yeah, but you still kidnap this man. Like, that's not cool. He says, if you would please give your hearts to those to whom the fates have given your bodies completely stepping over the kidnapping part. Yeah. Just like begging the question. Yeah. So there was a kidnapping.

Yes. That happened. Yes. Okay. But now we need to look at what's going on right now. Right. Yeah. And let's let's change what we literally just did minutes ago. Did. Mom. Yeah. Yeah. We can't let's let's change what we literally just did

minutes ago. Did moments ago. Yeah. Who needs to play the blame game? Yeah. I mean, really on. Yeah. So then he tells them he says, our men will be very excited to have you and they'll work extra hard to keep you happy. Like straight up, they're gonna fuck you good. Like straight like like. I was about to say by the only one hearing sax music in the background. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay.

So he says that and then the woman are like, all right, cool, yeah, we'll stay. Okay. Yeah. Now, of course, this is all written by Livy. Yes. And, and, you know, and concepts Now, of course, this is all written by Livy. Yes. And, you know, and concepts like, you know, primary source document. Oh, God, you know, going to a place that had the documents was beneath Livy.

He was like, no, fuck that. I'll make it up. It's fine. I don't want to leave Rome. Yeah. So, so Romulus does all this through Gail and Cunning, right? And, and, and so if you could imagine Rome growing under this, yeah, ultimately by bullying people, yeah, and then kind of sweet talking in the mafter, essentially, if you imagine Biff Tannen as a kingdom, that's a great analogy.

I love that. You said you're fast. Yeah. Okay. Now, when he dies, there's no clear line of succession. You didn't have any kids. And so you have an interregnum. Yeah.

Well, that doesn't work for like a year because it's literally, so by this point, by the way, the Sabine women get out there and they stop them from fighting. There's about to be a big fight. There's a really cool thing with Tarpea and all this cool shit. And the women stop them and they tell the husbands, they tell their dads, like, are you going to make us widows and they turn their husbands? Are you going to make us orphans? And then they turn to both of them. Are you going to make your children, your grandchildren, grow up fathers, grandfather of this, stop all this, we're all together now. And then they had to have a bit of a treaty and basically Romulus said, okay, okay, okay, here's what we're gonna do.

Sabine's Romans were all gonna live together, but we're gonna have a new name. And that was enough, like that was it, like fucking, okay, we're the Thunderbirds now. Great. All right. We're the T-birds, you know? Yeah.

But no, they were called the Queerites, by the way. Okay. After Quarinal Hill. Okay. So, so he dies and there's no clear line of succession and it's a really fun story how he dies, but I've already indulged myself too much on Roman history.

So it's literally a new king every day because they are made up of Sabine's and Romans. So one day it's a Sabine king, the next day it's a Roman king. One day it's a Sabine. Until they can find a good way to come up with the king. So they don't have rules for how to come up with the king. So they figure it out finally. Okay. After a year, they say, okay, say by King chosen by Romans. Fair. Fair. Everybody's cool. All right. Sounds good. But this also means that the Romans are forever ruled by foreign kings. Okay. Kind of interesting pragmatism there that they're down for.

Okay. So anyway, their second king is my favorite king, Numa Pompilius. He's more like a cleric bard. Okay. And he rules for 40 years. He brings peace, culture, calendars, laws, shit like that. Okay. Pretty cool guy. He keeps Rome from becoming a bunch of biffs, actually gets them to be a society, gives people all these great ideas and people like, how are you coming up with this? He's like, oh, my wife and I, and after we have sex, that's our pillow talk.

And they're like, wife, you live alone. He's like, no, I have sex with the goddess every night. And they're like, no, yeah, I heard about that down the valley. Fair, fair. Totally makes sense. And I mean, I didn't think about making boxes and calling those days. So yeah, no, dude, bang away, it's fine. So anyway, he said that the Romans would not become a society, they'd become a not society if they only ward and whatnot.

And so he instituted a way of making peace. When people questioned him, he would again refer back to his wife. And he then, again, I sleep with a goddess. Well, we've never seen her. Well, she goes to a different high school. It's fine. She's in Canada.

Right. Niagara Falls area. Yeah. She's wouldn't know. And so for 40 years, they built a cool temple that if you keep the doors open, it means you're fighting and if you close the doors, it means you're at peace. And that was enough to get people to stop wanting

to fight their neighbors. He also created the Vestal Virgins. Okay. And he created the occupational guilds. He created a village system, other cool religious stuff, a college of clergy. He also died without a male heir in his 80s of old age. He is the only one of two kings who died of old age.

All the rest were killed, including Romulus. Well, he might not have been killed. See, what happened was he was about to review the troops and he was surrounded by a bunch of the senators. Now he created the senators. And he said, we're going to have 100 senators. And, and Livy says, whether there were 100 good men or not, I don't know. But, but he picked a hundred. He picked a hundred. So he's surrounded by them, and they start kicking up a bunch of dust and then they literally Terrem to pieces with their hands Okay, and so when the dust settles he's gone and

They're just kind of Wiping off, you know and so a young man finds one of the centers like hey, where's Romulus? He's like you didn't see he ascended to the heavens and a cloud and he's like Yeah, hey, where's Romulus? He's like, you didn't see? He ascended to the heavens and a cloud. And he's like, yeah, no, I heard about that. Yeah. And they did see the dust cloud. And now there's no Romulus, therefore. The blood stains weren't like a problem. They'll be fragments of...

He ascended. Obviously. The fragments of viscera. Blood of dust. You just stomp it into the ground. It's fine. Okay, the muck puddle. It's the bloody muck puddle. They're created on a swamp. Okay, you know, okay, wait. So where do they get the dust? On this little hillock. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Whatever. Campus Marshal.

Whatever, okay, fine. So, okay okay so after 43 years of being a king Numa dies yes and and then I have Numa Numa yeah playing in the back of my head so it's 673 BCE or as we call it 81 AUC kind of a Roman thing really and maybe maybe not dying of old age is because they lived in a goddamn swamp. Either way. That wouldn't help. No. The grandson of hostess hostilius who had died in service to Romulus while stealing

Sabine women. His grandson, Tula's hostilius, becomes the king. I'm sorry. His last name is hostilius. I don't see the problem. Yeah. Hostilius. Does that just tell me is that the root of the word I think it is? Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Just just want to make sure 100% yeah, that that that's like that's like the Latin version of snot loud like. Yeah. You know, come on Snot Loud. Like, yeah, come on.

All right. So keeping with the pattern of flip-flopping through history, the new king was definitely barbarian fighter. OK. Hostileist lived up to his name. With a name like that. Yeah, it'd be really weird if he was like flowers and daisies and dandelions.

So he lives up to his name., seeking war as its own end sometimes, definitely more violent than even Romulus had been. And while you could through some mental gymnastics convince yourself that the wars that Romulus fought were defensive wars or a means to an end that the Romans needed, you could not make this claim for Hostileus. He looked back at the last 43 years of peace under Numa and he says, oh, we can't continue that because then we won't be a society. We'll just be soft people who get easily conquered. Wow, which okay, wait in yeah, yeah, we can't okay. Yep. Numa Yeah. Yeah. We can't, okay.

Yeah. Numa comes along and says, we can't keep doing what Romulus was doing, which is, you know, to fight, kicking people around fighting. Because then we won't be a society. We need to have a culture. We need to have all this other stuff. We need peace. And so they have four years of peace and stability.

And then hostility, I mean, hostilious comes along and says, well, no, we can't keep doing that because then we won't be a society. Motherfucker, you've had 40 years of being a society. This is true. Like, and of course the response was, okay, I can see that, you know, and buddy down in the valley he talks about, yeah, okay., and buddy down in the valley,

he talks about, yeah, okay. This is the most credulous population. Flucker. Okay. So like, like, narratively. Yeah. Like, not even as historian, just as somebody who, you know, reads fiction.

Like, I'm having trouble believing, livid at this point, like, really? Yeah. Like, they this point, like really? A little bit. Yeah. Like, they're that, like, they fell for all of that. Well, when, when Glorious Poolcare gets killed on the Appian way, they literally burnt down the Senate House. Okay.

So, and grant you that 700 years later. Yeah. So, they're in theory, 700 years smarter. Yeah. So they're in theory 700 years smarter. And I think they actually are. Okay. Wow. All right. The bifte cannon of the engine world. I shit you not like when when I talk to my students about this stuff. I always tell them mediocrity lasts the longest. But is this even mediocrity? It aspires to it eventually.

Okay. You're right. Okay. So, but dear God almighty. So really he sets the Romans in a war to deal with albalanga, which was their neighbors and their longtime allies. So albalanga is, so, so Anias gets to the shin of Italy,

he meets Latinus, the king of the Latins. Yes. And he starts the city, Livinium, named after his wife, Livinia, because he doesn't want to live in Latinum. Okay. Yeah. And so, but he wants to be their allies and stuff. But he's like, I'm founding a city.

It's Livinium. And so he does that. And then his son, once he's old enough, starts Alba Longa. Name such because it's a city that's built at the top of the Albin Mountain Range. And it goes a long way across the top. Alba Longa, the Long White City.

Because Alba Mountains, I think, were limestone. So the Alba Longans are long time allies, because eventually Numator and Amulius, and I forget, I think, Numator overthrows Amulius, I always get it wrong. Amulius overthrows N pneumator and kills his son and then in prisons his daughter, Reyes Silwa, into Reyes Silwa, in prisons her makes her a vestal virgin, Mars rapes her and she's pregnant with twins. Okay. Go on to be. So it's Albalonga.. Yeah, well they go on to depose their great uncle and reinstall their their grandfather

And they did it by the way by sneaking up and just kind of quietly surrounding Amulius with hatchets and then they cut him down Okay, which I wonder if you think about the foskies Which I wonder if you think about the Foss case Rods surrounding it. I mean we thought of you know the plot to kill Caesar So did a lot of people a lot of people so he starts a fight with Alba Longa Which are there like I said their longtime allies cousins. It's also the yeah, yeah It's also the original side of the Vestal Virgins first temple. Now, more on the war with the albums in just a minute,

but first a little bit about Hustilius in Rome proper. He built one of the first senate houses in Rome, the Korea Hustilius. This was on the remains of a temple that had been burnt down. The senate house, made by the guy who started all the fights that he could. Okay. Okay. Uh, because he'd once, once he'd beaten the people, he'd need a bureaucracy to bring them into the Roman fold. Okay.

It's not I'm going to beat you and then leave you. I'm going to beat you and then I've got to have a way to Now bring you into our tribe. Okay That thing lasted from somewhere around 600 BCE Which is 153 AUC All the way to 52 BCE That building all the way to 702 That's like 500 and something years of the same Senate House. When it was burned as a part of the riot

over the death of Claudius Poulque. Now, by the way, when the ruler of Albalanga, Medius Fufetius, whose idea had had originally been to set triplets against each other, I'll get to that a bit, he tried to betray Rome after submitting to Roman rule. Okay. Hostilius said, this is a man whose loyalty is torn between two cities.

Solution's simple. He will be a man who is torn between two cities. Oh, shit. So he has, doesn't sound good. He has him tied up between two chariots facing opposite directions and slapped both chariot horses on the ass. Oh yes. Okay.

Well, and okay. Now this is a hell of a warning to send to any and all allies of Rome thereafter. If you betray your loyalty to Rome, you're going to have a bad day. That's your underselling. I think little slightly. Little bit. Yeah. So now back to the Albalongans.

Yeah. Okay. The two people's Albalongans and the Romans had relatives and friends in both cities to fight each other would be akin to Fratricide and plenty of other sides. So Medius Fufetius in order to save bloodshed on both sides, he wanted to keep both sides strong against the threat of the Atrustkins to the North. He sends on voice to the Romans and he proposes the following terms. Both sides have tripled brothers, have them fight whoever wins that city will rule the other

forever. Okay. All his cards are on the table. He's saying, I got triplets, you got triplets, let's do this so that we don't fight each other to the point where the Atrustkins come back. Okay, now you likely know the story, but here's a quick recap. Okay, Horatius, the Horati brothers and the Kuriyati brothers. Okay, yes. a fight and they're on a field between both armies and they go a fight and very quickly in the battle, two of the Heratii fall dead but not before wounding all three of the Kriyati. So it's three wounded Kriyati II against one Heratius. So he looks at his odds and then he does what we saw in Manipaithan in the life of Brian. He runs. Yes.

And they chase after him. And he gets them to separate by large intervals. Then he turns, fights one of the wounded guys who's now really tired from chasing and kills him. And then he runs. And the same thing happens. He turns and kills the guy. And finally he runs and he turns and he kills the last one

Says something really cool stabs him through the neck, etc Strips all their bodies puts their spoils of war. By the way, he's completely unindered The Romans have won the Albalongans will be supplicated strips them all down puts on the spoils of war on a big old pole and starts carrying All this stuff back to Rome. Okay? On his return, he is the youngest of the Hrati brothers. He's bearing spoils of war proudly. And the front of the line of those returning marches right back to Rome proper. And among the spoils of war was a cloak that had been made by the fiancé of one

of the Kriati brothers that he had killed. He wore that cloak and it was stained with kriyati's blood on his shoulder. Okay. Okay. Fiancé was a woman named Camilla. Her brothers were the herati. Oh man. And right there in front of the gates of the front of the gates of Rome, she lets out a gasp and a lament for her betrothed.

And Heratius right there right in front of the gates of Rome in full view of everyone takes out his sword and stabs his sister right through the womb. Some people say it was through the heart. Either way, he kills her, rebuking her at the same time, stating that she would mourn for one of the men who killed her brother. She deserved death. And moreover, no Roman woman should ever mourn the death of the enemies of Rome. Okay. Now, this was a crime. Yeah. Roman citizens don't get to decide who lives or dies. That's an issue for a jury. There is a due process. Yeah. 2600 years ago. This is there was due process. And this was treason as a result. Now Horatius is seized. He's brought before the king to be sentenced. Hostiles recognizes what a sticky wicket he is in.

And if he partens the man who just killed a Roman citizen without due process, or the king to be sentenced. Hostiles recognizes what a sticky wicket he is in. And if he pardons the man who just killed a Roman citizen without due process, that is a very dangerous and impossible to respect precedent for a king to set. However, if he sentences the man to death who just won the war for all of them, the people are gonna turn against the king. Yeah.

Since a crowd was gathering, he wanted to wash his hands of the whole affair. So he could appoints a duumware, a two man council. Okay. Now the job of a duum weir, their exact job is to find him guilty. Okay. That is their job. They have no other job, but to find him guilty. And it was a foregone conclusion. There was no argument. That is their job. There's literally no other thing they're allowed to do. A trial would be held and he would be found guilty of treason against the state and he would be sentenced. In Livy book one, chapter 26, for those you want to read it. Quote, In accordance with the law,

I appoint duum veers to past judgment upon Heratius for treason, okay? The dread formula of the law ran in this way. Let the duum veers pronounce him guilty of treason if he shall appeal from the duum veers, let the appeal be tried. And if the duum veers win, let the lichter veil his head.

Let him bind him with a rope to a baron tree, let him scourge him either within or without the pomerium within or with the inside of a row of victory. Yeah, exactly. The holy boundary of rope. By the terms of this law, the doomweers were appointed. They considered that the guilt that they might not acquit under that act, even one who is innocent, and having given a verdict of guilty,

one of them pronounced the words, Publius Rautius, I a judge you a traitor, go lictor by in his hands. The lictor had approached and was about to fit the news." As you said, a pomerium is the religious boundary around the place known officially as Rome, regardless of its walls, cities, etc. Thus the king got to have his cake and eat it too, because he couldn't pardon a man just because. And the man had to appeal to the people specifically to the people, and they could then appeal to the king to commute, soften soften or lift a sentence, which in this case was death.

The king then could have held the law and rescue a hero. Okay. Wow. So, yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's a very circuitous route for that process. Procedure.

But it is so intensely procedural. Yes, that's striking, isn't it? That in what was the semi-barbarian state of the world that they would have that level of, no, no, we have a way of doing things. And everybody involved knows how this is all gonna turn out, but we have to go through the process because the process is what separates us

from the wolves of the field. And if we don't have a process, we're gonna fall on each other like wolves and everybody dies. Wow. So I'll go back to the quote. So Livy says, then Haratius at the prompting of tulis who put a merciful construction upon the law cried, I appeal. And so the appeal was tried before the people. I love the tone of voice. I appeal.

But so yeah, so essentially he had a lawyer telling him. Yeah, but the lawyer was the king. Oh yeah, okay. Like literally the king says, no, that's the part where there's a thing. You have to do the thing because I can't, yeah. Jabbity, what is elbow like? Or just like really looking around going,

is there anything that you wish to say right now that the people are here to listen and just staring a hole. Just staring him down. Because keep in mind how stupid everyone was. Well, and clearly how stupid Horatius was. Like, really? Yeah, in front of everybody.

Not just kind of hateful and a dick, but like in front of the gods and everybody, you're just like, yeah, what? Well, I would also point out though that Horatius is a bit of procedural guy, except for one step. This is true. Because he's like, well, I would also point out though that Horatius is a bit of procedural guy except for one step. This is true. Because he's like, well, I understand that you're engaged, but you weren't married, so you don't get to cry about him yet. Okay, granted. Yeah, it's a point.

But buddy, come on. Okay. You're literally wearing the cloak. You probably are sewing it like dude. Yeah. Yeah. You probably had to talk like, oh, sis, that's so sweet. You're so sweet. Like, dude. Yeah. Yeah. You probably had to talk, oh, sis, that's a nice cloak you're coming up with on the balloon. What's that for? Well, I'm engaged this guy and I'll belong. I hope it goes well for you.

Yeah. You know? And then he puts it on. Like, yeah, is that, this feels good. Yeah. You know? Oh, is that the, is that the curly hair and dark-haired guy that was talking to dad? Yeah, that's him.

Oh, yeah, no, he seemed nice. That's good. That's good. That's cool. Dead now. You know, talking to dad. Yeah, that's him. Oh yeah, no, he seemed nice. That's good. That's cool. Dead now. You know, six weeks later. Yeah. Oh, not even weeks later. This was literally that same day.

All of this happened that same day. Wow. All right. Roman, but I really want to highlight that point. All of this happened that same day. Decrime the trial, the appeal, and what's going to happen next. So the people listen to Heratius' case, specifically his dad. So his dad throws his arms around his son and basically says, look, I've already lost two boys

and a daughter. Don't rob me of my final, my final child. Yeah, I know, good, I'm, wait. I know. But he's the one, the daughter is separate. He killed her. Yeah, do you, okay. Yeah.

Wow, I gotta say what I keep coming away from is so many Romans had nothing but all the audacity. Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So so his dad says and his dad, oh my God, makes the best case. He wraps his arms around his son says, you know, I've already lost three kids that he don't make you lose a fourth. Yeah. Which I, you know what? Save him right Ryan was literally all about that. Um, minus the fact that Ryan didn't kill his other a fourth. Yeah. Which, you know what, saving private Ryan was literally all about that. Um, minus the fact that Ryan didn't kill his other brother, so whatever. Yeah, but okay. But then he says, all right, tell you what, you know what,

if the law is that he's been guilty, go ahead, go bind his hands and and go beat him to death outside of the pomerium, do it where you can see where he saved Rome. Hooray! Or if you want to do it inside the pomerium. Do it where you can see where he saved Rome. Or if you want to do it inside the pomerium, do that too. That's fine. Do it right there where we've piled up the spoils of the people that he just killed to save Rome. Go ahead. Wow. Yeah. So the people were like, oh, we can't. Yeah. So they made Horatius pay a penalty. And his penalty was that he had to walk under a beam, which back then, big fucking deal. It really looks, you know, but he had to walk under a beam.

That was paid for by public, public money. Okay. And maintained by public money. And, and, and then they built tombs for his brothers, and not for his sister. Oh, no, no, they did. They did a tomb for his brothers and a tomb for his sister, all with public money. Okay.

So him paying a penalty was walking under a stick. Yeah, okay. But again, back then that shit mattered a lot more like sending someone under the yoke. Okay. Yeah, that's that's that's what he had. Oh, all right. So so there was there was a very great deal of social stigma. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Now it's a neat story. It's yeah. It it it wow. There are so many things about Roman psychology that reveals not many of them positive. But it, but also reveals a lot about the fictitious cardacene culture.

Okay. So we have not talked about their specific jurisprudence yet, but that figures into several episodes of Deep Space Nine. Okay. I actually think this might not be a bad place to stop. I think this probably is. Yeah, we're pushing a minute and a quarter an hour and a quarter Yeah, so yeah, when we pick it back up We're gonna talk about Cardassian justice and jurisprudence. Now, I do want to recommend a movie this time

and I would love to hear your recommendation as far as books or movies go, but I'm gonna recommend a movie. I think I've done this before called The First King. I've seen it and I am is on prime and it is a phenomenal movie, I think. It's about Romulus and Remus. It's about what brought them to that moment. It ends with spoiler alert. It ends with the story that we started with. But it is phenomenal. It gets into the psychology of them. It's the language that they use is actually proto-Roman.

Oh wow. So I was washing dishes and I got the subtitles on and you know I was oh, should I go do this thing and I'm hearing all of it and I kept up with the plot no problem because I know enough Latin. Yeah. That I you know I was like oh okay they were talking and I was like oh shit that happened without me realizing but it's shot entirely in natural light and it is it shows the Bronze Age it's pre-Bronz Age. Yeah, it shows the pre-Bronz Age time

as the really brutal time that it quite probably was in that part of the world. But it's a really good reimagining of the story of Romulus and Remus. So that's what I'm gonna recommend called the first king. So what recommendations do you have? A funny thing happened on the way to first king. So what recommendations do you have a funny thing happen on the way to the forum. Cool. Because all of this puts me back in mind of you know elements from from that story. Sure. That popular

perception of Rome and the Romans. And I also played Sennik in high school. No kidding. Yeah. Oh, me. First time around. It was the Buster Keaton role. Yeah. Yeah.

And that was actually, I want to say that was the last show of my senior year of high school. I used to have students translate pseudolists to play. Oh nice. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. By Thorentius.

And oh, God, we had fun with it. Oh, yeah. So much fun. Yeah. It was a great character. Yeah. So yeah. So I would recommend that as a maybe a palette cleanser

after the first game. Yeah. So here's what the Bronze Age probably looked like. And here we're gonna turn a slave trying to escape slavery by finding a wife for, yeah anyway. Yeah. There are legions of ways in which this is not entirely cool to modern sensibilities, but we're going to make comedy out of it.

Here you go. So I'd say, yeah, as a as a as a palette cleanser, I like it. And zero must tell is amazing. Oh, yes, yes. Cool. Well, where can people find you on social media? People can find me on the Twitter at EH Blaylock. They can find me on TikTok at the same place. And on Instagram, the same place. Also Mr. Blaylock, a different account, but also me. And they can find the two of us if our Italian listener genuinely took offense at my characterization of Sicilians, then I can be reached at, or we both can be reached at Duh- and Hatha Harmony, at Geek History Time.

I'm thinking about your life before you get to it. But we can be found at Geek History Time on Twitter. I already gave it away, spoiler alert, but where can you be found? You can find me at Daharmony2H is in the middle on the Twitter and Instagram. You can also find me every Tuesday night on twitch.tv-capital-punds. I'm also now starting to show up 4 p.m.

on Friday afternoon, specific standard time, with with iMac Punds with Ian Mcdonald, Excelsior Gaming, which you can find on the YouTube's. Excelsior Gaming, you can find ours. It's the one that talks about I got 99 problems and a stitcher ain't one where we explore the Marvel Strike Force game. So it's a lot of fun. There's tutorials that we've put out and stuff like that. So there's a lot of places you could find me there, I guess. All right. Cool. Well, for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmon.

And I'm Ed Blalock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s.