A Hot Dog Is a Sandwich - Baked vs. Stovetop Mac and Cheese

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Today, Josh and Nicole are discussing the best way to cook mac and cheese: baked or stovetop? Leave us a voicemail at (833) DOG-POD1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. Alright, Nicole, mac and cheese is done. Taking it off the stove now. No, you have to put it in the oven now. Oh, brother, here we go again. This is A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what? That makes no sense.

A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What? Welcome to our podcast, A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What? Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show where we break down the world's biggest food debates. I'm your host, Josh Scher. And I'm your host, Nicole Inaydi. And, Nicole, today we are talking about macaroni and cheese. I love both of those things, but especially when they're together.

I love the use of the word and. Holy smokes. Ampersand, right? That's what it is? Yeah, except— I love ampersands. Hold on. No one go through the Mythical Kitchen videos where we've made mac and cheese, which are a lot of them, and try and find out what our official spelling of mac and cheese is.

Because I think we've gone through a couple iterations. Yeah. And no one knows. I like it when it's mac and apostrophe cheese. Yeah, wait, hold on. Mac and cheese. Because in apostrophe, let's talk about grammar instead of mac and cheese. Oh, okay.

We're talking about whether or not stovetop mac and cheese, we're talking the creamy stuff, baby, is better than baked mac and cheese. Something in my tooth. But first I need to talk about the usage of apostrophes in language because an apostrophe is there for a missing letter, right? Oh, is it? Like the word isn't. Oh, that. The apostrophe replaces the O. What is it? Like the word isn't. Oh, that. The apostrophe replaces the O. What is it called

whenever you combine the two words? Contraction. This is a contraction? The contractions are spaced 30 seconds apart. You need to push. So for me, if I'm writing mac and cheese,

I think there should be an apostrophe before the N and after the N. It should be bracketed because you're missing an A and a D. But it's not grammatically correct and apparently it is only

before the N. I don't know. Anyways, Nicole. What's up? Stove topper. What's up, geek? Stove, why'd you call me a god? Why'd you call me a geek? That was so geeky.

Dude, I was a writer. I like copy edited. I did the whole thing. Yeah, I was a geek. I'm a geek, Nicole. I'm a nerd. I'm a freak. An adult geek.

But I'm not just any geek off the streets. I'm handy with a piece, if you know what I mean. Gotta earn your keep. I believe that is a transcript from regulators. That is indeed. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I know.

I know hip-hop. Look at you. I know. Okay, what do you want to talk about? Oh, yeah. Bake versus Stove Top. Bake versus Stove Top Mac and Cheese. Where do you fall?

I am in the middle. Oh, my. No, you can't be in the middle. I have reasons. I have reasons why I'm in the middle. Oh my, no, you can't be in the middle. I have reasons why I'm in the middle. As a self-proclaimed macaroni and cheese student of the world, I appreciate every single type.

I like the crappy stuff that you can get from a box. I love the thick macaroni and cheese slab casserole style that I get from Soul Food. I love the word slab when it comes to food. Yeah, I like the in-between where it's, you know, it's like stove toppy, like soupy, and then it has like a cool crust on the top. Like I just love all iterations of pasta and cheese sauce. So, I mean, there's a time and place for both. You're a pure mac and cheese neutralist.

I really am. I always have been. You're Switzerland. I am Switzerland neutralist. I really am. I always have been. You're Switzerland. I am Switzerland on the matter. Speaking of Switzerland, Nicole, did you know that they invented processed cheese? Even though today we call it American cheese. No way. Yeah, they actually did.

What about Swiss cheese? Okay, so. Was that invented by the Swiss? This is, listen, not to get into the romantic life of my fiance, Julia. Why not? But she dated a Swiss guy back in college. She did? Why is it so surprising?

No way! I don't know. It's not that big of a deal. Yeah, of course. It's just a dude. Was he from Switzerland, though? Yeah, he was from Switzerland. Going to school, international student, right?

Oh, I like that. Fun little international student. Good for her. Julia, I'm sorry if this is a lie. Good for her. I hope that Swiss dude is... I'm sorry I forgot his name. But anyway, she was like, one of the stories that always sticks out in my mind is that he was so confused at the fact that we call Swiss cheese, Swiss cheese. Because he's like, Switzerland is one of the world's capitals of cheeses.

That's correct. And we have a lot of different kinds. What we call Swiss cheese is most likely Emmentaler. Which is from Switzerland. Yeah, exactly. But that's Emmentaler. That's not Swiss cheese. We don is most likely emmentaler which is from switzerland yeah exactly but that's emmentaler that's not we don't like saying emmentaler they got a lot of different kinds of cheeses over in switzerland you know what i mean um but anyways they invented processed cheese as well because they were just a cheese capital and then that kind of came to the u.s and processed cheese is an important part of the evolution of mac and cheese a lot of people don't

like to put processed cheese in their mac and cheese, but let me tell you, it is the secret to a good mac and cheese. Yeah, I agree with that. Soft top or baked. Well, so the interesting thing about mac and cheese to me is it's a story of old versus new, but like, okay, so some people consider this is dumb. This is getting like, when people say that ketchup is like several thousand years old, well, I guess I'm one of those people because I've said that a lot. But technically, if you want to look at the origins of cheese and pasta together, like you really go back to ancient Roman times because they were making like wheat doughs that were boiled and then mixed with cheese.

Like cacio e pepe. Is cacio e pepe mac and cheese? Oh, that's a great question. I don't think so. Like I don't think – I think mac and cheese to me has to be a milk cream based sauce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the origins of mac and cheese, if you think about it, are in French based cookery, right? With the bechamel.

With the bechamel. So bechamel is one of the French mother sauces. It's a combination of flour and butter to make a roux. What are the others, Josh? Quiz time. Bechamel, hollandaise, espagnol, tomate, oh my god, no, no, no,

oh, velouté, velouté, velouté, bingo, bingo. But, man, there's so many variations on hollandaise. Cooking's such a beautiful sport. It really is.

Cooking's my favorite sport. Then it's track and field, then football, then high ally. I like watching competitive ice skating. Figure skating or... Don't ask me.

Freestyle. I will leave it. Moguls. I don't, I um don't ask me freestyle uh i will leave moguls i don't i literally don't know the difference so french-based cookery so the first ever what i consider the first ever recorded recipe of mac and cheese because i am an amateur historian i do google things uh-huh it was like 1769 oh my god it was thomas jefferson okay so we'll get into that in a second but 1769 in england the original recipe to me was a French Mornay, Mornay variation of a mother sauce. You add cheese to a bechamel.

Correct. And then it was actually baked as well. So it's very much like a – it's pasta gratin is what it is. Exactly. Right? Yeah. The Thomas Jefferson thing is really, really interesting. So Thomas Jefferson often gets credited for quote unquote inventing mac and cheese,

popularizing mac and cheese. Bringing it to us, to the US. Sure, and he was the American ambassador to France for a long time. And he did supposedly bring the first ever macaroni maker to America, a pasta extruder. The interesting thing about any time

you're like Martha Washington's recipe for apple pie, Thomas Jefferson's recipe. It wasn't Thomas Jefferson cooking. No. It was an enslaved black person that was cooking, right? And so James Hemmings was Thomas Jefferson's chef. Correct. And James Hemmings actually went,

Michael Twitty writes about this in the book, The Cooking Gene, which is fantastic. Recommend to anybody. Michael, we got to get you on the show, man. Yeah, what are you doing later? Call us. But anyway, so James Hemmings actually went to France, trained in France as a cook, bought his freedom at age 30, tragically died when he was 36. But his recipe for mac and cheese, which he actually described as he literally called it macaroni, a macaroni called pie.

He literally described his first recipe for mac and cheese as a macaroni called pie. No, sorry. I'm so sorry. A pie called macaroni. pie. He literally described his first recipe for mac and cheese as a macaroni called pie. No, sorry. I'm so sorry. A pie called macaroni. Interesting. Okay. Sounds like a weird deaf, you know, poem that was like a slam poem. Cool. Okay. But anyway, so the original recipes for mac and cheese were indeed baked, right?

Sure. So ZOG. And then as we get into 1850, the first cheese factory opens in America. And then as we get into 1850, the first cheese factory opens in America. And then in the early 1900s, processed cheese takes off. We all know the story. Space age food. There's literally a product in the 1950s that was marketed to housewives that was called macaroni cheese. And it was literally just a can of cheese goo.

They mixed with macaroni. So that is when stovetop macaroni really took off so that's how we ended up getting you know craft macaroni and cheese which is incredible which is incredible but that shifted our perceptions of macaroni and here i am nicole i don't know i don't know which way is up i don't know you know what i'm saying because i got like you like you yeah i got i got love i got love for the stuff i grew up with yeah me too just the gloopy soupy craft macaroni and cheese oh the color the iconic orange color oh it's the red dye 40 with the yellow dye six it's really beautiful i don't know in the smell it is not like any cheese that you've ever smelled before but it smells like what an

alien would consider cheese yes i like that it's like if they distilled cheese essence into a perfume. Yeah. Like with the, what is the whale, the whale poop? Ambergris. Ambergris. It's vomit. Whale vomit. Sorry, I came out of the wrong end of the whale.

It's like they distilled cheese essence with that and sprayed it on there. It becomes more cheese than cheese. Yeah, it's really special. But I don't know. I mean, there's nothing easier than whipping up just like it's really special. But I don't know. I mean, there's nothing easier than whipping up just like a bowl of stovetop mac and cheese and pork. The thing is some people get the ratios wrong. Oh, yeah. And it's like macaroni and cheese soup, which I don't really care for.

It needs a certain heft and a certain level of, I don't know how to explain it. An amount of body. Coagulation. Correct. It's the proper coagulation. But I've had it on the other side of the spectrum, too, when people bake their mac and cheese and it's bone dry. Bone dry. Just embarrassingly bone dry.

I've made bone dry mac and cheese before. I've been there, too, and it makes me sad. Okay, so any pasta cookery, it's really interesting because you have to pull the pasta off the stove. You should be sautéing your pasta with sauce. It just makes it better. It makes sense. Yeah. It makes sense.

But you have to pull it off the stove when it's too wet to serve. You know what I mean? The macaroni and cheese is too wet to serve? Any pasta. Right? Macaroni and cheese, it's a pasta dish when it comes down to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have to pull it when it's too wet to serve because the pasta is going to continue to absorb sauce.

You know what I mean? Sure. When it's on the plate, when it's still hot, all that. But sometimes you screw that up. And I've certainly screwed that up. Same. On both ends. I've made soupy mac and cheeses.

I've made bone dry mac and cheeses. It's a deceptively tough, you know, dish to get perfect. Yes, yes, yes. In Macaroni, I just burped and powered through it. I was like, Macaroni and cheese. It's like the alien from Men in Black. I don't think I've ever seen that movie all the way through.

Oh, really? I like the part when they're like at the bodega and the guy's like, hey, what's up? And that's all I remember. Is that the Labatt blue bear

from the commercial? What's up? I don't know what that is either. You don't know what's up? That's where the phrase was up comes from. No, no, I do. But you said something about. I think it's.

Blue bear. I believe the origin. OK, now we're getting into the real. The podcast. La Bat. I believe it was from a La Bat Blue, which is a Canadian beer brand. What is La Bat Blue? La Bat Blue is like the Bud Light of Canada.

And then the Coors Banquet of Canada is Molson's Dry. Why are you emphasizing your words in a weird way? Canada. You're doing a Canadian accent? That's how they say Canada, bud. Come over for some brewskis, play some hockey, eh? Oh, no. Eat some beaver tails?

What? Is that what they call them, beaver tails? Yeah. Right? Yeah. No, I've never, I mean, I only remember the scream version of that commercial. Yeah, yeah. That's it.

That's what they were parodying. What were we talking about? Okay, so macaroni. So macaroni. So stovetop macaroni. It's good. I didn't grow up with Kraft mac and cheese as much as I grew up with Stouffer's frozen mac and cheese. Oh, that's different.

That you microwaved. Which I would consider stovetop mac and cheese. Certainly stovetop. That's the style, right? That is the style. Stovetop mac and cheese. Certainly stovetop. That's the style, right? That is the style. Stovetop mac and cheese, there is no textural interplay other than squish and gloss. Why? It's glossy and squishy.

The noodles are, I've had it before too. Those noodles are so, so overcooked. It's like eating a, it's like Chef Boyardee ravioli where the noodle has no chew. The noodle has. It's shocking. And it's great. It's like delicious. I don't like it.ardee ravioli where the noodle has no chew. It's shocking. And it's great. It's like delicious. I don't like it. You don't like it?

No, no, no. You'd rather have Kraft than Stouffer's. What? One million percent. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend Nicole. You know I like my pasta like al dente-ish. Yeah.

So being able to like, you know, craft your own like pasta texture is actually really cool that I like. I feel that. Yeah. As a child, you know,

me just determining, oh, this is overcooked. Do it again, mom. I'm just kidding. I never did that. I never did that. Shall I?

You don't deserve that from Nicole. I'm sorry. I really never did that. But no, that's soap top stuff. Garbage. Ew, no. No, no no no no

okay let me let me ask you then let's work backwards from the problem what is bless you excuse me thank you let's work backwards from the problem here okay what is the best mac and cheese you've ever had? The one that I make. Well, how do you make it?

Oh, yeah. Wait. Oh, my answer is the same, but go on. I forgot your mac and cheese is the best. It is the best mac and cheese. Like you can quote me on that. Well, I cook it with evaporated milk. Well, first I cook my noodles beforehand and I wash them.

I wash the noodles and then I put oil on the noodles beforehand and I wash them. I wash the noodles. And then I put oil on the noodles. I also cook them according to the package directions. Maybe like 30 seconds less. Okay. And then I rinse it in cold water so I can stop the cooking process. And then I put neutral oil on it and then I let it hang out. While that's happening, I make my bechamel sauce.

But I use evaporated milk, milk cream and regular milk in my that's the freaking ticket yeah in my mac and cheese and then i season it heavily i put chicken bouillon i put mustard powder um i put a dash of whatever hot sauce i have around typically it's either louisiana or crystal um onion powder garlic powder like that. I put sharp cheddar cheese, Velveeta. I believe I put some Gruyere in it. And then I combine the two on the heat. And then I put it in a buttered dish. And then I put more cheese on the top.

And then I bake it for 20 minutes. So there's no one. This is the best mac and cheese I've ever had. This is the best mac and cheese. I did hours of research, like days of research on this. And it's perfect because we're talking about cheese choices on this.

Some people will be like, I've made a 19 cheese mac and cheese. Too many cheeses. I don't like when people put feta in their mac and she's like, ugh. No, every cheese you put in your macaroni should be intentional. Velveeta, sodium citrate.

I call it the God chemical because it will fuse and emulsify any cheese. Sodium citrate is what makes American cheese American cheese. That's right. And so if you just add some American cheese to any cheese sauce you're making, it will bind it. It won't break. So you have that for the structure and the creaminess. And then you have the sharp cheddar for like, that's the most iconic cheese flavor when you think of mac and cheese, right? It's sharp cheddar.

Gruyere comes in. Gruyere comes in on the back end, Nicole. Oh, it's nutty. It's nutty. And it's different. That's a nutty cheese. It's different. It's the wild card.

It's the wow factor. It's that that separates the mac and cheese recipe from most. And then another part is you're actually seasoning it with spices. People need to season their mac and cheese. 100%. Some people don't. No, and that is honestly, I used to never do that because I was like, I'm here for just the cheese. No, no, no.

It's a dish. It's a full comprehensive dish. You need to enjoy what you're eating. Yeah, it's not a pasta dish. It's a casserole. Do we call it a casserole? I don't know. Is that offensive?

Are all baked pasta dishes casseroles? Is manicotti a casserole? Is lasagna a casserole? I made the claim recently on Twitter that I said it using a bunch of real legalese language where I was like, through the American lens of lasagna and the American lens of casserole, I believe it could fit into that subcategory.

I don't think it meant a cate. Do you think enchiladas are a casserole? Well, it depends what you mean by enchiladas. The way Americans. What do you mean? Because, okay, so a legit. Why are you talking? Why are you?

I'm here. Nicole's drunk with confusion right now. No, I'm from California. So my favorite enchiladas are Oaxacan and they're're maybe called enmoladas because they're made with mole. Yeah. Oh, I've had them before at Monte Alban. Monte Alban. Shout out to Monte Alban.

So good. Got a bunch of great mezcal cocktails for cheap, baby. I love drinking there. They're so colorful. Just a lovely restaurant. I always have a good time when I go there. But enmoladas, you don't bake them. They're filled with whatever, chicken, cheese.

Well, the tortillas are lightly fried and dipped in oil. Sure. Slather them in mole. Yes, yes. Roll them up. Put them on a plate. Maybe cover them with a little bit of queso fresco or queso oaxaca, whatever. There's nothing baked about it.

The American idea of what – well, not even American. You can go to New Mexico and get baked enchiladas. Well, New Mexico is in America. Sure. But I mean, you know that I don't believe in sovereign borders. Like that truly, truly, I don't believe in sovereign borders. Right? Because I actually met somebody.

Shout out to Tyler. Her family dates back to New Mexico. They came from Spain in 1520 that's cool so literally 500 years of New Mexican culture so they're like we don't care if we're in America or Mexico we've been here for 500 years making this stuff okay this culture so whether New Mexican food is Mexican American

just purely New Mexican whatever it is but you know if you're covering enchiladas in cheese and baking it I don't know sometimes that reads as a casserole to me. You know? You know? I know. I just don't know if I have the heart to call baked macaroni and cheese a casserole. I do think you can make a macaroni and cheese casserole, though. How would you make a macaroni and cheese casserole? Like Caribbean macaroni pie is a casserole. Talk about Caribbean macaroni pie. It's just, I believe it's made with eggs,

evaporated milk, some cheese, and you bake it. Yeah, and that's, it is, it's like, it's hard and it's dense and it's hearty and rich

and eats completely differently than, Totally. Like say a stovetop mac, the difference between a stovetop mac and cheese and like a Caribbean macaroni pie, which shout out to Rashida Holmes of Bridgetown Roti. She makes a great macaroni pie. Oh, I'd love to try it.

Oh, you got to try a macaroni pie at Rolls. But the difference between those two dishes is like, I don't know, the difference between like a milkshake, you know, and rice pudding. It's just like they're so far apart. You know what I mean? There's macaroni and cheese in both, but they satisfy such different lanes. Totally, totally. And they're both delicious in their own right. 100%.

I think macaroni pie is a casserole, but the baked macaroni and cheese that we're talking about that has that proper coagulation to wetness ratio, that's not a casserole. So the technique on your macaroni and cheese i almost think of it as a hybrid which is maybe my favorite style okay because you're baking it but you don't bake it for that long right no the whole point of baking it is just so it can like god i don't know how to say it just marries it mingles oh yeah wait say it in farsi uh get after it's like gotten together. Get after. It's gotten it. So, yeah, it's married.

That's a good way to think of it. And like you broil the cheese on top. Yeah, no, I agree. Wait, do you broil it or do you bake it? I mean, the cheese gets broiled on top because it bakes. But you're not like, when you press the oven, are you hitting brawl? Do I? Or are you hitting 500?

I think it depends on my mood. Sometimes I just bake it. Sometimes I just bake it. Sometimes I broil it. You know what I might do, if I remember correctly? I think I bake it at maybe like 450, and then the last two minutes I'm like, all right, screw it, let's broil. Slam it. I think that's what I – I'm pretty sure that's the way that I freehand it. If I ever tell someone to cook something on medium heat on a pan, what I actually mean is like put it on medium heat for two minutes, stare at the pan, get mad, and crank it all the way up to high. Yeah.

And then something burns, add a little bit of water. Yeah. That's called cooking. But I'd say yours is almost a hybrid because a lot of baked mac and cheese that I've had, including like really good ones at barbecue restaurants, they will make the cheese sauce. Well, some baked mac and cheeses, you don't even make a bechamel. No, you, so it's like- You just add it all.

It's like egg-based. Yeah, some places- Which I think is fun. They'll add egg, they'll add the egg, the milk to the cooked cold pasta. Yeah. Got egg, milk, cheese, seasoning, whatever, mix that up, top with cheese and bake it.

Yeah, yeah. I reckon that's how, especially a lot of barbecue restaurants that are like, we're doing- Pushing numbers, yeah, that are like, we're doing a thousand portions of this a day. We need giant trays of things so we can shove in an oven. I reckon that's how they're probably doing it. And I've had a lot of great mac and cheeses like that, but yours

starts with almost a stovetop recipe. Yeah. And you're not adding extra, because something that I'll do, if I make your style, I'll add extra cheese into the pasta. Like cheese has not melted yet. I see what you're saying. So that when it bakes, it melts.

So you get that stringiness. Exactly. But like I've noticed like macaroni and cheese isn't necessarily like cheesy, like stringy. Well, that's not how you prefer it. I don't think that's how i prefer i just the most of the mac and cheeses i've had my whole entire life and i've had a lot the cheese necessarily doesn't always need to like be that like perfectly cheese pulley experience it's almost not a cheesy dish it's a creamy dish that is seasoned by the cheese yes Yes. Yes. We have the dumbest con. Do you realize like, can we just, that was an epiphany moment for us.

And I liked it. And we have the dumbest conversations in the world on here. And I absolutely love, I would rather be nowhere else. Yeah. Are you kidding me? No, that's so true. Because, because most of the time the cheese is perfectly emulsified and you don't have those little pockets of cheese that if you were baking it and you put those little cubes

in there, they would like stretch. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a stovetop mac and cheese. Like you, Nicole, you are making a stovetop mac and cheese. You want the comfort, the creaminess of a stovetop mac and cheese,

but you also want like the aesthetic and the functionality and the cohabitation of a baked mac and cheese. And you found the perfect hybrid, which to me, maybe that's the next a baked mac and cheese and you found yeah the perfect hybrid which to me maybe that's the next step of mac and cheese evolution did you drop your chapstick oh my god my chapstick's on the ground you see that's what you're using nivia again yeah it's the weather yeah the weather um yeah again switzerland it's pretty good it's a pretty good recipe i have you ever had a mac and cheese that you can slice?

It's not a full Trinidadian macaroni pie. Not intentionally. But you go to a cookout, a family get-together, a potluck. Someone brings the mac and cheese. That has been sitting there for three, four hours. Sure, of course. And you don't scoop it. There's no run to it it's a slicer

there's something pleasant about the density of that to me as a man who loves soft but chewy foods like mochi i the ideal mac and cheese to me is maybe just made with mochi oh that would be a great test mochi and cheese mochi i've made that before chewy cheetos oh yeah we did make that we did make that but um yeah i mean i i've been to a lot of potlucks and like friends givings yeah and just the disarray not even the array the disarray of mac and cheeses is just so fun and then everyone points at you because you're the food guy slash girl. And they're like, try my mac. Nicole, you have to try it.

I worked so hard in it. And I'm like, okay, let's do this. Work harder next time, hon. Why is it green? So there's a lot of that. But I kind of like how macaroni and cheese, you know, there is no right way to do it. There's wrong ways.

But there's so many wrong ways. I went to a, let's put my family on blast again. Yeah, woo! Thanksgiving one year, ooh, same thing happened. Somebody was like, I got this new mac and cheese recipe. Josh, you're a foodie. You got to try it. I'm like, okay.

And then I saw it in the pasta,icole it was bare it there was there was no sauce on the pasta what they did what they did no but there's more oh wait there's more they took cooked macaroni put it in casserole dish topped it with cheddar cheese more macaroni more cheddar cheese inexplicably just a ton of tomatoes and onions baked on top healthy it was like i i don't even know how to describe it it was like if a belarusian cookbook during wartime published a recipe for mac and cheese and they're like this is it this is belarusian rations mac and cheese i don't know we didn't have any milk the donkeys were killed no i didn't tell that i said good did no did you season the onion no just just raw and plain okay thank you did you think about cooking this so that the onions were warm no you just

want a little sweat on them okay yeah interesting um no and so it's just absolutely terrible and the funny thing is that year i brought a mac and cheese too and i was trying to be a little fancy um so i made like a wild mushroom gruyere baked mac and cheese. We've all been there. Oh, we all. And it's. With thyme. Oh, yeah.

Oh, no, Nicole. The thyme was in the butter roasted mushrooms. Boom. And it was like fine, but I was like. It's nothing like a bomb ass mac and cheese. Correct. And you know which one I'm talking about. Correct.

The yellow. Yeah. The yellow. Gotta be yellow. And the brown on the top with the oil pockets from the cheeses that have lifted to the top that are also violently orange. Correct. And then you like you break the seal and then you see it and you look at all the flex. Like look at that seasoning. Like that is a proper seasoned dish. And you see it and you look at all the flecks. You're like, look at that seasoning.

That is a proper seasoned dish. And you hear it and it's like, wow. You got to see little flecks of red in your food. Or green, whatever. Or green. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or black. Just put flecks in your food.

They're there because they taste good. Season your damn macaroni and cheeses. There's one issue that we did not talk about. What? And it's, Nicole, I don't know if you're ready for this controversial jelly. How do you feel about breadcrumbs? I don't. I don't like breadcrumbs on my mac and cheese.

I thought you were just going to, I don't feel about them at all. Unless, it's very rarely, very rarely I will screw around with a little Ritz. Scrumbled Ritz with a little bit of cheese, like a hard cheese, like a Parmesan. But that's very rare. I don't need it. Yeah. It's putting lipstick on a beautiful pig. She doesn't need it.

The pig was fine. Peppa Pig was fine as she is. You didn't need to gussy her up. I was thinking of Miss Piggy. No, no, no. Peppa Pig is supplanted Miss Piggy. Is Peppa Pig a child? Because Miss Piggy is sexually aggressive. Yeah, yeah. no. Peppa Pig has supplanted Miss Piggy. Is Peppa Pig a child? Because Miss Piggy

is sexually aggressive. Yeah, yeah. That's a sexually aggressive pig. Peppa's a child. Peppa's a kid. I think I can officially swear off breadcrumbs on mac and cheese

from here on out. I'm really proud of you because I know you like to do it for like aesthetic purposes. Yeah. You don't need it anymore. No, it's like I've been there. I've done that.

I know that it doesn't actually improve my life. Yeah. At any point, the correct thing to, it's like I've been there. I've done that. I know that it doesn't actually improve my life. Yeah. At any point, the correct thing to do is put a crust of more cheese on top. Correct. That you can get the brown edges on at the end. And the breadcrumbs, they're going to soak up the grease. No, I want the grease.

My mouth should soak up the grease, not the breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs don't get the grease. I get the grease. I do, I do. Yeah, no more breadcrumbs. So our answer is hybrid? Honestly, though, I think you found the next evolution in mac and cheese because- That's me.

To me, baked represents community and tradition. Stove top represents comfort. Nicole's distracting me with the model posing. Stove top represents comfort and convenience. Nicole, you have found the hybrid where you get all the comfort, the convenience, the tradition and the communion ship from all of that. And I love that. Yeah. If you're listening to this podcast, just make my mac and cheese and then report back. Yeah. We'll post a recipe somewhere on your front door. Go check your front door.

We're dropping them off. We're going on on tour we've been surveilling all of your houses if you're listening on spotify they're watching you and feeding us the data hi nicole nicole nicole nicole you and i have to say now it's time to find out what other wacky it is or rattling out there in the world all you crazy I have to say now it's time to find out what other wacky it is rattling out there in the world. All you crazy kids with your crazy ideas. It's time for a segment we call Opinions Are Like Casseroles. Why are you whispering? Josh always looks at me to follow my cue for this.

Yeah, you're a natural born leader. Because I'm a little bit crazy when it comes to saying opinions about casseroles. Oh, Nicole, you crazy kook. I am a crazy kook. You want to get us some voicemails? I would love to. Let's do it. Hi.

Long time listener. First time emailer. I enjoy your show. I enjoy your it. Hi. Long time listener. First time emailer. I enjoy your show. I enjoy your show too, bud. Blueberries. In-season blueberries. Very underrated. Excuse me.

Very overrated. Out-of-season blueberries. Underrated. All blueberries are just about just as good, regardless of whether you're in January, February, or July, August. Okay. Two quick takes. I was curious of your opinion on one of these things.

Stop the text. We see a lot more. One. Two quick takes. I was curious of your opinion on one of these things. You see a lot more. One, where are you from? But you didn't tell us your name, but where are you from? Because I love your accent. Do you think I know? July to August.

Why are you looking at me? I don't know where he's from. Also, he said it so matter of fact in a way that, yeah, he's correct. I don't like blueberries. They're always just fine, is I think what his take was They are like the most midberry This is the most This is the funniest lukewarm take To me and in a way that I truly love

It's not lukewarm to him though No it's not and I also believe it because You know Nicole that thing that I do Where I escalate intensity for no reason No you I'll tell them why it takes correct. We've conquered God. And the way that we conquered God.

By frozen IQF? Not frozen IQF, but by literally changing soil conditions to be able to grow things year round. Because California, right, it's the most agro-rich state in America, one of the biggest agricultural regions in the world. I thought you were like angry. It's agro, bro. No, so we can grow so many crops year round.

Blueberries are, I believe, typically like a cold weather berry. Really? Right. And grow in cold weather areas. Blueberries are native to America, but we can just like kind of grow them wherever, whenever, because California has so many different microclimates. And I know a lot of blueberries are grown outside of California and whatnot, but just like we can get any produce at any time of year because we've

conquered God. The thing we can't figure out is how to grow great out of season tomatoes. They're good out of season tomatoes, but man, tomato season, tomatoes transcendent. All right, back to him.

Wait, I have something. Oh, Nicole, I'm sorry. I'm also back to him. Wait, I have something to say. Oh, Nicole Admore, I'm sorry. I'm also on this podcast. I know, you paused for a long time. I thought you had nothing to say. He talked so much, he forgot I was here. Yeah, go quick, go quick, go quick.

It was incredible. I know, I didn't forget you were here. I looked at you and you paused. It's like everybody melted away. There was only Josh speaking. But yeah, I don't like blueberries. Continue. Wow. Wow, Nicole, profound. I had

more to say, but now I don't know what to say anymore. Do you want me to apologize? No. I'm sorry. No. Two quick takes. I was curious of your opinion on one of these things that you see a lot, a walking taco. It's just nachos why would you call

it anything else second is fruitcake a food or is it really just a holiday paperweight thank you fair enough this was great yeah uh great opinions i didn't mean to call your your take lukewarm walking taco aka frito pie i just not just i's not. No, not for me. Same. Yeah. I disagree with you. Fritos are not. Stranger.

Fritos are like, he's roughly correct. I can see how he would get to his wrong opinion. Do you make your nachos with Doritos? No, I do not, Nicole. Do you make your nachos with potato chips? I do not, Nicole. Do you make your nachos with potato chips? I do not, Nicole. Do you make your nachos with Cheetos? I do not.

They're in this take I do not agree with. You know how like in school, in a math class, let's bring you back there, you would show all the correct work, show all the correct work and still get the answer wrong? That's where he's at with walking taco because it's mostly made with Fritos. Yeah. Fritos are just a corn chip. But it's mostly made with Fritos. Yeah. Fritos are just a corn chip. But it's not the same. It's not a tortilla chip, which to me is different. But like there's, you know, cheese and a saucy spice meat on there. It's 99.9% similar to nachos.

It's been nacho-fied, but it's not a nacho. Yeah, like humans share 99.9% DNA with chimpanzees, but we're different. Chimpanzees. You know, and a chimpanzee will just rip your face off and eat your children. Yeah. Travis. Yeah. You know about Travis the chimpanzees but we're different chimpanzees you know in a chimpanzee we'll just rip your face off and eat your children yeah you know travis yeah it was you know about travis the chimpanzee inspired the scene in the movie nope yeah google that bro google that yeah um what was his other opinion oh uh fruitcake fruitcake not being a food simply a paperweight i like fruitcake i love how did fruitcake get so maligned it's so good good. I like fruitcake. I don't even know if people send it in the holidays anymore. Yeah, because it got such a bad rap.

Now people are making weird stuff like Stolen. Stolen. Stolen and other. German fruit, Panettone. And Panettone, which I love. Don't talk crap about Panettone. I love fruitcake. That's all Panettone is.

Fruitcake is if you crushed a Panettone into the density of a neutron star and it's great and then soaked it in some sort of rum yeah so good i absolutely love fruitcake i will hear none none of that hi josh hi nicole hi maggie this is kyle from portland uh nicole on the which is the best ice cream flavor episode you recently said that you make charcuterie boards really well. And I have always wanted to make a charcuterie restaurant. That's like Subway called cutery. I have never worked in the food service before. I have no idea how to run a restaurant,

but if you want to verbally commit to be my second employee after my girlfriend, just say yes. Thanks. Love your podcast. Bye. Is this person speaking to me specifically? Yeah. I'd like to tag along, though, if I could just insert myself. Josh, you'll be your next hire. I don't know if you'll be able, truly, to pay me enough to just be your employee. I would have to be some sort of manager.

Equity. You'd have equity, too. You're employee number three. Yeah, I'd have equity. I would have lot i you i can't just be an employee be able to liquidate stock when you want to yeah like i want to i want to be there making the big decisions i want to be in the boardrooms yeah um i like the idea you'll start sweeping pork fat off the floor but no i will five years no that's what the girlfriend does when they're i don't have to do that what do you what do you think of that idea though? I think it's a good idea. Making a charcuterie,

so just a very premium form of Subway. I think it's a good idea. I believe a lot of cheesemongers already kind of do this. It's not stylized as a Subway or an 800 Degrees. But stylized like a Subway is that is what Subway,

like there were sandwich shops before Sub the reason subway took off in the reason places like chipotle copied their model is because you could see all the fresh ingredients in front of you that was very new sure and you can point to what you want right yeah i've never been to a i've been to fancy charcuterie based sandwich shops that are all great but their stuff is very curated. I can't just point at the Kalamata olive tapenade. I can't just point at the artichoke pesto. I can't just point at things. You can't see them? They don't have them laid out?

I don't think I've ever been to a space like he's talking about. And it's a cool idea. It is a very cool idea. And I think there's merit in it. I don't know exactly how to make it you know successful because there there there is a next evolution to subway coming right sure we've seen that with stuff like sweet green I love stuff like kava grill you know is the next evolution of chipotle sweet green if you had like the aesthetics of sweet green something that is

elevated that's very millennial you have the the app. You have all this stuff. It's infinitely customizable. Yeah. I had a very similar idea whenever I was first in culinary school, actually. So you're going to sue? No, no, no, no, no. Are homies from Portland? Of course not.

No, never. This is your brainchild. You're not even his employee. You're suing him, aren't you? No, no, I'm not suing anybody. I don't even have a legal – I don't even have a lawyer on retainer. Should I? Your brother's a lawyer.

Personal injury. That's if I slip and fall in his restaurant. Slip and fall while you're sleeping in a pork vent. No. Like I was saying, I think it's a great idea. And if you can find a way to curate it and make it attractive

and get butts in the door, do it. Put up a neon sign that you can take Instagram pictures in front. That's like. Yeah, yeah. And it'll be, it'll say that you can take Instagram pictures in front. That's like. Yeah, yeah. And it'll be, it'll say, let me be your char cutie.

Get it? Because it's like char cutery. Yeah, we'll workshop the neon sign, but you got to have a neon sign. Or like, or like, or like, you're so gouda to me. I sharted at char cutery. That's a good one. I'd eat there. I'd eat there. But, okay okay i have one more thing to say about this hold on okay but like but like when you think of like eating like a like a like a boarded food a food with a boarded food yeah boarded food i'm familiar yeah with the food the food of boards and like you have to sell like like wine with it right yeah okay but like you have to be able to make that subway model

sexy because it's a sexy food and it's a shareable food and you're probably going to be either going on a date or like a meeting or like with a big group of people but you have to make your space attractive and it's hard to do that whenever there's a subway style i want the pepperoni no not that one. The other one. Like that kind of stuff is hard to make sexy. Okay, you follow the Wolfgang Puck model. You start with Spago, your flagship. You know, you have the best shirt career.

They can't do that. And then you get to Wolfgang Puck Express. I also said Wolfbang Guck. Wolfbang Guck Express in LAX where you're selling $15 tomato bisque. That's what you do. And then that's your subway because that's the moneymaker. Panda did the same thing. Had the Panda Inn, went to Panda Express, now Panda Express, made them

multi-multi-millionaires. Cutery, we're in, baby. I'll officially invest $5,000. I'll just show up. Hi, Josh and Nicole. My name is Mark and I have an opinion. My opinion is that the only cream cheese

that belongs on a bagel is plain whipped cream cheese. Don't you dare say it! None of that flavored stuff and none of that unwipped stuff. Only plain whipped. I love you guys. Son of a...

I love you too! I want to say the full word. I love whipped cream cheese, but I prefer block. Yes. No, whipped cream cheese to me is an affront to cream cheese. Let me tell you, it's good with crackers. It's good with matzah. I mean crackers.

I ain't a bagel, Nicole. I don't want the whipped cream cheese. It's good sometimes. I understand the texture of it. I'm just so upset. I hate whipped cream. The disappointment of opening a thing of cream cheese and not knowing that it was whipped, just thinking that you bought cream cheese in a nice resealable container.

Why are you so anti? What's the big deal? It dilutes the flavor. When you expand volume, decreasing density, you dilute flavor. There's literally less flavor molecules. I want the denseness of the cream cheese. And then you get a little whipped cream cheese mustache. You've got to put three inches of whipped cream cheese on to equal one inch of normal cream cheese.

That's just so much cream cheese to put on a bagel. But I really am vehemently against whipped cream cheese on a bagel. I like it sometimes. Mark. Mark. I'm Mark. I have an opinion and I'm Mark. I can't wait to do an episode of just this,

of just listening to people. I can't wait. But no, I understand. I understand the opinion. I don't necessarily love it, but I get it. And the only correct bagel order is a cinnamon raisin bagel with strawberry cream cheese. Maggie, next opinion. I don't necessarily love it, but I get it. And the only correct bagel order is a cinnamon raisin bagel with strawberry cream cheese. Megan, next opinion.

Ew, ew, what the hell was that? What was that about? It's good. You ever had it? No. It's like a dessert. It's anti-Semitic. That's the most self-hating Jew thing about me is that I will eat a cinnamon raisin bagel.

Yeah, that's it. That's the one, Josh. Hey guys, this. Hey, guys. This is Phil from Chicago. Well, the suburbs of Chicago. I can't really say I'm from Chicago. Evanston. He's from Evanston. But my opinion casserole

is if there's no other dips available, ketchup is suitable for regular chips. I'm talking like ruffled Lay's or regular Lay's, honestly. It has to be a plain chip. Can't be any others. No Doritos. No nothing else.

No extra flavors. It's got to be straight up salt, chip, and ketchup. I think it works. My mother looks at me very strangely. That might not be the only reason, but not my business. Hope you guys are doing well. Bye. Phil, Phil. Say hi to your mother for me very strangely. That might not be the only reason, but not my business. Hope you guys are doing well. Bye. Phil, Phil.

Say hi to your mother for me, Phil. You don't need your mother's approval. You're a grown man. You're living in the suburbs of Chicago. You don't need your mom's approval to dip your chips in ketchup. You need ours. I think it's okay.

I'd rather just the best, the best chip dip, yogurt. Oh, yeah? Yogurt. Greek yogurt yeah? Yogurt. Greek yogurt or regular yogurt. Not vanilla. Cinnamon raisin chips dipped in strawberry yogurt are my favorite.

No, I, as, okay. As I've gotten older, Nicole, and my tastes have matured, I have now realized what I want out of the world, out of my food eating experience. I have learned that my life is improved by dipping more things in ketchup. I will roast broccoli and just dip it in ketchup because it makes me happy. You sound like Benjamin Button because you know how kids love dipping things in ketchup. Oh, I thought you meant like the voice, like, I'm seven years old.

That's how we talk. I'm seven years old, but I look like an old man. I didn't watch that movie because I watched it with my high school girlfriend. We were just making out the whole time. But I remember

as we're making out hearing like Brad Pitt being like, I'm just seven years old. I'm like. Did you remember from that? Yeah. It was a great film.

So yeah, I love dipping plain chips in ketchup and I also hate dry foods. Like, of course, I love eating chips. I don't need to dip

every single chip, but as much as I love wetness, I love dipping chips in ketchup. This is perfectly valid and I've never thought to verbalize it that way. Just reach for the yogurt

instead. Eh, fair enough. You put hot sauce in the yogurt? Put a little hot sauce in it. Put a little. sauce in it?

So what I do, I put paprika. Pepper. Garlic powder. Come on. Onion powder. And a little bit of whatever kind of like spicy red. I just got some berberi spice. So I put that in my yogurt. A little Ethiopian spiced yogurt.

I'm into that. I'm into that. All right. Is that our time? Do we have to stop? I don't want to do other things. I like this place. Well, on that note, thank you for listening to Hot Dog is a Sandwich.

If you want to hear more from us here in Mythical Kitchen, we've got new episodes for you every Wednesday. If you want to be featured on Opinions or Like Casseroles, you can hit us up on Twitter. You know our handles already with the hashtag OpinionCasseroles. It's actually MythicalChef or NHendisada. Or if you want to leave us a voicemail, ooh, a voicemail, give us a ring and leave us a quick message at 833-DOGPOD1. I've been enjoying the voicemails. I like them a lot.

Leave us a comment if you're enjoying the voicemails. I'm loving them. Yeah, I like you in from Mark. I'm Mark. I have an opinion and it's bad. For more Mythical Kitchen. Stop! Mark, don't let him discourage you.

Send us more opinions. We have a YouTube channel. You know the deal. We'll see you next time.