A Hot Dog Is a Sandwich - Is A Hot Dog A Sandwich? ft. The Historian, Ken Albala (Part 1)

Episode Date: July 13, 2022

Today, we're joined by historian Ken Albala to tackle the world's BIGGEST FOOD DEBATE: is a hot dog a sandwich? Leave us a voicemail at (833) DOG-POD1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. Hey, Nicole. Hey, Josh. Is a hot dog a sandwich? Oh, no, you said it. Now we have to debate it. This is a hot dog is a sandwich. Or is it? Ketchup is a smoothie.

Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what? That makes no sense. A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What? Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show where we break down the world's biggest food debates, except for we haven't actually broken down the world's biggest food debate. I'm your host, Josh Ayer.

And I'm your host, Nicole Inayedi. And Nicole, today we're doing the damn thing. We're doing it. We are doing it. We are going to try and finally end the debate of whether or not a hot dog is a sandwich. And I know what you're saying. Daunting task. Daunting task. And also the podcast is called A Hot Dog is a not a hot dog is a sandwich. And I know what you're saying. Daunting task. Daunting task.

And also the podcast is called A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. It is, yes. But that is not an endorsement. No. And we've been very clear about that. No, no, no, not at all. Very confusingly clear that we could have equally called the podcast A Hot Dog is Not a Sandwich.

There were other frontrunner names like Edible Arguments, but that sounded like Edible Arrangements. And I hate Edible Arrangements. Wait, no, hold on. We'll save that debate for another time. I once ate a $90 edible arrangement for dinner and it was absolutely fantastic. Butter and the Hot Knife was the other one. Butter and the Hot Knife is... I'm butter.

I'm the hot knife. No, silly. You're a hot knife and I'm butter. Point is, a hot dog is a sandwich. It was just a clever name. Yeah. That plays on a debate that a lot of people know. But you and I have never touched this freaking thing because it's too popular right yeah and like i

don't think that we're like equipped to do so no and and so many people have tried to answer it but i don't think anyone's done a great job and you have a lot of people on that list you got like john hodgman did it uh with dan pashman from the sporkful uh will smith came out with a video yeah a huge tiktok oh huge TikTok. Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Stephen Colbert asked Ruth Bader Ginsburg and there were literally headlines of people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg said a hot dog is a sandwich, but she actually didn't even say

that. She said, Stephen, according to your definition of a sandwich, a hot dog would be a sandwich. And so that said, this is something that I don't think anyone has done a great job of bringing down and I think we should do that. And I think we're equipped to do that. I think we're going to find people to help us get to that answer.

Certainly. Certainly. So we for the next five weeks. Five whole weeks. God, our brains are going to turn to absolute. Our brains are going to turn into hot dogs. We're just going to pipe them into a little lamb casing and num, num, num. But we are talking to four different experts to try and really break down the bones of this argument.

First up, we just had a conversation with historian Ken Albala. Great guy. Great guy. We are both huge fans. Dude's written like 25 books to try and get to the origins of where hot dog came from. The history of a hot dog even being called a sandwich, where a sandwich comes from, where a hot dog comes from. Super interesting. It's important to know the bones of the history before you get into it.

And then next up, we are talking to Dr. Calvin Normore. He is a philosopher and a professor of metaphysics and medieval philosophy at UCLA. And we're going to try and learn the sort of bones of the argumentation process, right? Correct. We're actually talking about when we say a hot dog is a sandwich. And then next up, we got lawyer Alexander Park. Of course. Who wrote a piece for the Minnesota Law Review arguing that the government needs to take

a stronger definition of what a sandwich is. And so I am really fascinated by that to see how it actually plays out into the legal system. Yeah, of course. They're responsible for classifying a lot of things. A lot of things. And then finally, Nicole, we are talking to Cupid's hot dog owner, Morgan Walsh, the roller skating sausage maven herself. She owns a chain of hot dog restaurants in Los Angeles that I am a huge fan of.

Same. And we're going to see how it actually affects the day-to-day business of somebody who works with hot dogs for a living. Exactly. Yeah. And finally, Nicole, we're going to be talking directly to the people. That's right. You, the people, you deserve to be heard.

That's right. We're going out to the streets. So everyone, make sure you're following us on social media. We might be showing up to your people. That's right. You, the people, you deserve to be heard. That's right. We're going out to the streets. So everyone, make sure you're following us on social media. We might be showing up to your door. We might want to be hearing

directly from you. We're going to go old fashioned with it. Billy Eichner just yelling at people. Knocking on doors. What you think? Just going to go

candice-ing like, excuse me, ma'am. Do you have four minutes to talk about our Lord and Savior hot dogs? And yeah, I'm ready. I mean, do you think we can end it? I think we're going to try our damnedest.

And that's the most important thing. We're going to try as hard as we possibly can to end this debate. If I'm being honest, I don't think we I think we will convince four people in the world. But I think the most important person that it's going to end the debate for is myself. this is a personal quest for me and i hope you feel invested of course yeah i i fully expect to come out of this with a hard answer to have every single piece of evidence and information to back it up in my own mind because right now i mean we have to go into this with an open mind right yeah but i do have some feelings a little bit of course should i share right now my feelings yeah heart of hearts right now hot dog is a sandwich a hot dog is not a sandwich it's just not it's not it's just not

it's just not i don't feel like a hot dog is a sandwich what do you think no i i i understand the argument i've heard all the arguments before or at least so i think um i fully believe that a hot dog is a sandwich of course right i'm hard liner. I've always said that for years. The conversation with Ken, certainly God posed a lot of points out there. But that said, it's meat bread. It's a prototype of a sandwich. Dude, what's not sandwichy about it? But that said, I'm open to having my world rocked. Let's get into the meat of this. Let's rock our world. Let's get our world rocked. Ken, welcome, man. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, thanks for having me. I really like the picture behind you because I think it answers the question that you're going to spend

an hour going through. Is a hot dog a sandwich? And the picture clearly indicates no, it is not. Well, hold on. I mean, this is a hot dog sandwich, as it were, on the picture. It's been the logo of the podcast. We call the podcast A Hot Dog is a sandwich, not because either of us actually believe that hot dogs is a sandwich. But just to be like referential to the biggest food debate out there. Exactly. We've never actually talked about this before. And the reason we've never talked about this before is because we didn't think that we actually had the mental faculties to answer it because it's like straight up refused. You know what I mean? Yeah, I was I was never planning on answering it. But then Josh had a really good pitch like, hey, let's find out. And I'm like, OK, let's explore this. And so, Ken, that's where

you come in. Yeah, we're hoping that you and all of your food history accolades could help us at least get the base context on how to answer this question, because we know it's a really long journey. Sure thing. So, I mean, first off, I have a bio written for you, but you are in the unique position where you have done too many things to possibly fit in a podcast host bio. Do you want me to just read it and try? Try. Okay. Okay. This is, I had to boil it down. I really did. Ken Obala is a food historian and history professor at the University of the Pacific. He's authored or edited more than 25 books about food, including multiple encyclopedias about food. He's an IACP award winner and has done way too many things for me to possibly cover right now.

Ken, how did that sound? That sounds great. Also, sidebar, you and I are part of a very special Facebook group called Show Me Your Ass Pics. We are. Yes. Totally cool. And you've just like done so many amazing things. That book is coming out eminently.

So I just turned in the final, final proofs yesterday afternoon. Oh, my gosh. Congratulations. It looks really cool. Yeah. So it literally came out of that conversations in that podcast. Yeah. One time we made a Jell-O bagel for the show we work on.

That's right. Good Mythical Morning. And then you recreated it in a way that I could have never wrapped my head around. So thank you for that. It's fun. All right. Back to the question at hand. Ken, have you given any thought to this question? Is a hot dog a sandwich? Is that something that has crossed your mind before? Sure. I mean, it's been out there for quite a long time and people have been worrying about it. I'm not sure why. It's not a productive, you know, part of society. It's not one of the social questions people have burning in their minds. But I think it's, I think because people like defining things, what originally spurred this on was just taxation.

Sure. The state of New York. And I think another state also decided that for taxation purposes, they would classify hot dogs with sandwiches for convenience, not because they were making a philosophical statement or anything, but it caused a lot of people to question, is it really? Does this make sense? Should it be its own category?

So it's been a fun question to think about. Well, so do you think that the impetus to answer it is just because of that taxation? Or do you think that there's like something larger about society that says that, you know, we love putting things in categories and also that we hold certain things like hot dogs very near and dear to our hearts. Well, that's part of it. It's a quintessentially American food and we like arguing about it. But I think also is that it's such an absurd question because you ask anyone and their answer is no, of course not. A hot dog is a hot dog. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean? Hold on. Hold on. Is that what you think? Yeah. I think, I think the people who are trying to claim it's a hot dog. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean? Anyone says that. Hold on, hold on. Is that what you think?

Yeah. I think the people who are trying to claim it's a sandwich are trying to cause trouble. Wow. Okay. Everyone knows common parlance. It's, of course, a hot dog. Everyone knows that. So you are coming to swing and right out the gates that you believe in your heart of hearts. And do you think that history can, like, verify that?

Or do you think this is a historical argument? Really? I don't think it has any validity whatsoever. I think even if you talk philosophically or historically, there's no way a hot dog should be even thought of as a sandwich. Like the two ideas. And that's why it's gotten so much traction is because it's patently absurd. Whoa, Ken, I have chills right now.

Hold on. No, I have actual chills because I did not see this going this way. Ken, I agree with you so wholeheartedly right now. Hold on. No, I have actual chills because I did not see this going this way. Ken, I agree with you so wholeheartedly right now. Like, I feel like you have just, you've cracked it in such a concise, even way that I couldn't even put into words. Okay, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. Before we really get into it, because this is, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to Ken was to try and see if we can pinpoint the exact moment in time at which hot dogs and sandwiches actually came to be.

Because I think that's important. Ken, if you will just humor me for a minute. Sure. But let me say from the outset, I don't think it's not a question that can be answered, for one. And I think for most people, when they look at food history, they go, where is the first hot dog? We always want to find the origin.

And there never is. It almost never happens, unless it's something like a Twinkie, where it's a brand name and someone actually invented that and marketed it and such. But that never happened with a hot dog. And there are half a dozen equally plausible claims that happened in the late 19th century. None of them are proven.

It's this world's fair or another world's fair. It's Charles Feldman in Coney Island. It's whenever, you know, but that's the wrong question to answer, I think. You know, what you really want to know, I think what's the important question is why hot dogs are so important in American culture, why we love them so much. That's fascinating. Who was the first person to do it? I'm sure it predates the late 19th century. By far, you know, it's a European thing, really, to start. Well, I fully agree with you that we talk about all the time in this podcast that any food origin story is likely completely bunk.

Yeah. Right. Sure. And so especially, I mean, not even the hot dog, because you mentioned there's the famous origin story of the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis. The sausage vendor is serving sausages, and he was apparently serving them with white gloves, but then he ran out of white gloves. That's the dumbest thing on earth. What? What a terrible business.

Why are the colors of the gloves important? It's classier? For one, you'd get the grease on the gloves, and then you'd have to hand them back to the person. That is the dumbest story I've ever heard. And if you look at it, you know, if you look at the way they eat hot dogs in Frankfurt, where Frankfurters come from, they just pick it up with their hands. And you don't, they're not greasy. You know, you dip it in sauce, you eat it. It's very, very easy to do.

A hot dog doesn't need a bun. So that story is kind of like the, you know, you got peanut butter in my chocolate kind of story. The accidental dropping of chips into the batter to make chocolate chip cookies. They're all nonsense. Yeah. One of my favorite ones is we are in Los Angeles, supposedly the origin of the French dip. And there's two restaurants about a mile apart that claim to have invented it. And literally the origin of where the term French comes from

is completely different in both of them. One says that there was a police officer named Officer French and he was physically arresting a man when the sandwich maker dropped his sandwich into the au jus and he said, I'm in a hurry. I got to go arrest this man. Give me that wet sandwich. And then the other one says that it was an actual French baker who did it.

And so if you can't even agree on that. But that said, I mean, I think the PR behind this is a huge part of the story. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's the quintessential thing that we're trying to decide. Why right now at this current time is the sentence, the question, a hot dog is a sandwich, such a big deal. Yeah. Yeah.

I hear that. And a lot of like I think there's actually big business implications in it. Right. And I think because I'm coming at this with the bias that I believe a hot dog is a sandwich and I believe it's patently absurd for people to not think it's a sandwich. That's my own thing, because I believe that you have to define. Of course, we have to really define what a sandwich is first. And if you're going to take the clue, the cue, that a sandwich is some kind of processed meat or cooked meat, whatever it is, on two pieces of bread, then a hot dog doesn't qualify immediately. It's one piece of bread split open. And if you do try and put a hot dog on two pieces of bread, you have what, like in your picture, that doesn't work. It rolls out, it squishes. I hate that he's using our logo against us. Ken, it's such a good graphic. And I think if you did want to make a hot dog sandwich, I

would totally approve of this. You'd have to slice the hot dog really thin into very thin layers, layer it across the bread or cut it in little circles, put it on the bread, and then you'd have a sandwich that's a hot dog, a hot dog sandwich. But if you ever were to show someone a hot dog, well, let's imagine you went into a friend's house

and he said, oh, I'm having sandwiches. Would you like a sandwich? And they brought you a hot dog. Wouldn't you be disappointed? Of course. That's not a sandwich. That's a hot dog. I don't know that I would be.

And I also feel like we need more philosophical tools to be able to unpack this one right here because I believe that's called the equivocation fallacy, right? Or no, not the equivocation, straw man. I believe that's the straw man fallacy. Ken, we're trying to do our best here, but we're both kind of dumb. No, this is the normative use of language. And philosophers use this all the time, is that if something is commonly understood to be X, then philosophically it's accepted. And if you try and introduce something else that's not

X into that quotient, then that's okay. You know, that's a perfectly valid argument. That if someone would never call something that, and let me give you a close but similar example, is that hamburgers, when they started, were called sandwiches. They were big slices of bread. Hamburger sandwiches. Yeah. But it's not of bread. Hamburger sandwiches. Yeah. But it's not anymore. I agree with you. Now, you say hamburger.

Would you like a hamburger? No one in their right mind would say, would you like a hamburger sandwich? Nobody. You'd say hamburger. It's its own thing. That's right. And so the language and the concept has shifted. And that's perfectly OK.

Hot dog was never a sandwich. No one ever called it that. And so why we would suddenly try to stuff it into that category is, is kind of just silly. That's very interesting because I've heard that there are actually philosophical, not philosophical. I've heard that there are historical records of the original hot dogs being called sandwiches. I mean, dating back to even in like the, the 1830s of it being called a dog sandwich or

a hot dog sandwich. Do you know anything about that? 1830s sounds way, way too early. But I think maybe when it was first introduced, people didn't know what it was. And so they had to categorize it. Yeah, to put it in the category. But there are things like this. And let me give you a weird example. If you go to Vienna, they do have something that looks very, very much like a hot dog. They do it slightly differently. Rather than slice the long bun open, they have a long metal prod, and they just poke a hole in the whole thing, put the mustard inside,

stick the hot dog inside so it's completely cased in bread, put the top on, and you bite it and eat it. And it is pretty much a hot dog. You know, you would never call that a sandwich. That sounds like fun. That just sounds like a good Friday night. Would you call a sausage roll? You know, in England, they have a sausage wrapped up in dough.

It's not a sandwich, even though it's very close to a hot dog. I found the citation. I found the citation. Go ahead, Josh. I'm scattering it on my notes. There's an 1843 obituary of baker Ignaz Frischmann, who was a baker in New York, who supposedly baked rolls to supply to sausage vendors. And the quote says, a bologna sausage or two with a piece of bread would be of advantage to those whose appetite might lead them to partake of a spurious dog sandwich.

OK, so what you're talking about there is something very different. Let me explain. Oh, yeah. Hit him with the can. So here you go. So what makes a hot dog a hot dog and not a sausage? It's a type of sausage, but it's got a very, very finely ground filling, which is actually called a batter because of the way it's usually they put ice in. So it gets that kind of spongy texture.

It's a very modern invention. You can do it by pounding it and adding ice, but it takes hours. So a hot dog is kind of a modern invention in that case. So a hot dog is kind of a modern invention in that case. The very same batter makes bologna, which we call, which comes from bologna, right? Which they're called mortadella. It's the same kind of batter. It's just that one goes into a bung, which is an enormous, enormous casing.

It's the cecum in a cow. So you get this really wide slice. If you can make it smaller and smaller and smaller, you get a hot dog, which is in a sheep casing. So you can eat the casing and everything. But bologna, what they're referring to in that quote is a bologna sandwich. Is bologna just a hot dog? Or is a hot dog? It is a big hot dog. A hot dog is just a small bologna. So in theory, if a person were large enough. And in German, they call it that. They call it Wörtchen, you know, Wörtchenstchen. It just means a little baloney, a little worse. I like to hate baloney.

This is so much fun. Oh, my God. I feel like an abundance of knowledge is poured into my ear. Hold on. I'm having a great time. I still have more questions. I'm still not convinced, Nicole. I am not giving up my God at this point.

Because let's go to the claim that a sandwich is two slices of bread. And just, Ken, just block our logo out of your view right here. Don't look at this. Okay. But let's go to the claim that a sandwich is two slices of bread and just can just block our logo out of your view right here. Don't look at this. Okay. But let's, let's go to the claim that a sandwich is two slices of bread. Okay. Do you, leavened bread, I mean, was invented 10,000 plus years ago, correct?

More than that. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, can you go into the history of leavened bread? It was the, was it the Mesopotamians or Fertile Crescent? Well, no, we, we commonly think that bread was invented with agriculture when we started growing wheat. But in fact, people gathered wild wheat and pounded it and made it into flatbreads. And there's probably leavened breads also way before 10,000 BC, before the so-called Neolithic Revolution.

So if you were to have a, you know, let's imagine you kill an animal and you have a flatbread and you stick the piece of that into the flatbread and fold it over. OK. Is that a sandwich? It's not really. But it's because it's one piece of bread. It's not sliced. It's not put into a sandwich. So when you think of pita and falafel, do you say a falafel sandwich?

I call it a pita. I just call it a falafel pita. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, because it's a pocket or it's folded or it's you know do you and there's things like that all over the world in italy that's called the piad in in in uh you know all through the middle east if if you if you get to china they take the same kind of dough and they steam it but they put the meat inside so bow is is that a sandwich it's meat inside bread but why, is that a sandwich? It's meat inside bread, but if a hot dog's a sandwich, then a bao is a sandwich also. Whoa, hold on, hold on. I think there's distinct differences, though, in cookery between, say,

bao and a hot dog, whereas to me, a bao could be in the classification of dumpling. And this all goes to taxonomy, right? Of genus versus species. What about the Peking duck baos, the ones that are folded over, which I think is Is that what you're referring to, Ken? Because that's what I thought in my brain. No, no, that's that. Well, they call that mistakenly a pancake, but it's not risen. It's just a flat kind of noodle. Oh, you're not talking about Peking duck

is the flat crepe. What am I talking about? The steamed bun. The white fluffy bun. Well, so there's two different kinds of steamed bun, right? So like if you're, Nicole's thinking of guabao, which is like belly buns yeah yeah they're very popular where the bun is cooked separately and then the meat is tucked inside but then there's also a different type of bao that is steamed together with the uncooked meat inside right and so we see how murky the waters are here of course yeah but yeah no I feel you can. If a hot dog is a sandwich, then I think

God, oh no, I'm about to shoot myself in the face. Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. But then you've got to say ravioli is a sandwich too. Oh, hold on. I don't want to. I don't want to either. But I'm going to drag this out to its logical conclusion. Is that any meat between

two pieces of some kind of dough, why does it matter if it's baked or boiled, must then be a sandwich. I think something that is important here is leavening. And so I would say, I've created my own sort of definition of a sandwich, which is very loose, but I've created my own sort of definition of a sandwich, which is which is very loose. But I think it is any sort of filling that is between leavened bread.

Right. I don't think it has to be meat. A pie is actually there are pies that can be counted sandwiches, right? Well, hold on. I mean, like a puff pastry on the top of a like chicken pot pie and the pie comes out or a like a cornish pasty cornish pasty is meat in the middle it's a it's a leavened it can definitely be a leavened bread um it's you know and then you're eating it like a just like a hot dog in fact you know you eat it with your hands then then a cornish pasty has got to be a sandwich also good news i've added more layers to my definition of a sandwich. I believe it has to be

chemically leavened bread. I don't believe mechanical leaveners such as butter. I was going to say, what about mechanical leaveners? Wait, wait, wait. Bread is not chemically leavened. That's yeast. Well, I mean, yeast is not a chemical leavener. Isn't it? No, it's a living creature. I'm sweating.

Good news, I've updated my definition of a sandwich. Okay, you need to update it again. No, chemical leaveners means baking powder. Oh, copy that. Okay, so something either yeast or sodium bicarbonate-based leavening agent, and the bread must be cooked separately from the filling, because otherwise I think we're in pie town.

Well, then calzone, by your definition, would not be a sandwich. That's fine. Even though it's 11 bread and it's fried and it's got cheese and meat and stuff inside of it. Correct. But you can take the same dough, fry it, fold it over meat. Is that a sandwich? Oh, that's a sandwich.

That's a sandwich at that point. I believe so. That's just a yummy little nibble, if you ask me. Because they do serve those like in Northern Italy, Milan. you can get a flat bread that's got meat in it and you fold it over and that comes close to being very close to being a sandwich that's what i'm saying ken join the dark side it's join the dark side here well i mean just throwing us off the bread hinge is throwing me off at least okay so i i have another question about the uh two slices of bread idea being central to a sandwich because i've never

believed that. And I know the dictionary definition, which one I don't believe that should be the end all be all of what we're going off of. Oxford English Dictionary, I believe, specifies two slices of bread. But there are several other dictionaries that do not specify that. The USDA does not specify two slices of bread for their definition of a sandwich. And if you look at something like, say, Subway, I mean, Subway is the largest restaurant chain in the history of the world. More locations than McDonald's. I think 7-Eleven might be the only thing that has it beat. But I mean, Subway, I would consider a purveyor of sandwiches. Ken, would you say that?

They're called a sandwich chain. Even though what they're serving are actually subs. A sub is a different thing. It's a subset. It's a subset, literally, of sandwiches. is a different thing it's a subset it's a subset literally of sandwiches because when you take a long roll and you put cold cuts in it it serves the exact same function of you know of a sandwich so and you're putting cold cuts so it's like you know ham or salami and cheese and stuff like that and it's and it that is somewhere between a sandwich but we and the the i think the real truth of that is that we're so confused about how to categorize it that every place calls it something different.

It's a sub in New York. It's a grinder in Philadelphia. It's a hoagie. Oh, interesting. There you go. It's such a confusing thing to us to make what is a sandwich on a long roll and then slice it.

Ken, it doesn't have to be confusing. It doesn't have to be confusing. It doesn't have to be confusing. Just lean in. It's all a sandwich. It's a sub sandwich. I am so inundated with information that my brain is like, I'm like, my eyes are starting to glaze over, but it's like, I'm still retaining all the information. We have like four more episodes.

I know. This is just the tip of the iceberg. No, I'm having, you don't get it. Like my brain is like kind of in like a, not disassociation mode or anything, but I'm just retaining so much information and I'm having so much fun that I'm just like blank. Let me throw another curveball at you. Oh, no, we can't handle it, Ken. We can't handle another curveball.

I'm ready. So we use this term conventionally and uniformly. One slice of bread, something on top is an open-faced sandwich. And throughout Scandinavia, smårebrot. It's a sandwich. It's a slice of bread, something on top is an open-faced sandwich. And throughout Scandinavia, smårebrot. It's a sandwich. It's a slice of bread. You could put cheese on it or pickled herring or whatever. But it's a sandwich.

But here's the real difference is a sandwich, I think by definition, you have to be able to pick it up. And you can't pick up an open-faced sandwich. You have to use an iPhone 4. No. No, no, no. I can pick it fork. No, no, no, no. I can pick it up. No, in Scandinavia, they use a knife and fork. That's Scandinavia.

I use my hand and I go like this. No, you do not. And you know how I know you do not? Because the last time you ate an open-faced sandwich was at Lancer's Deli and you got a hot beef open-faced sandwich. Ken, this is a deli that predates time in Burbank, California.

And their hot beef sandwich is a slice of Wonder Bread with just the saltiest, brownest gravy you've ever had. Side of mashed potatoes. Deli sliced roast beef, side of mashed potatoes. And Nicole, you could not have picked that up if you tried. That's because of the gravy. But if I had a piece of toast with a little bit of, with a schmear of cream cheese, a little bit of dill, a few little, you know, a little squeeze of lemon juice. I pick that up and I eat it. And I can pick that up.

That's bruschetta. That's not a sandwich. Okay. Because then you have a slice of toast and you're just eating. I agree with Ken on this point. If I toast two pieces of bread, is now that a sandwich? If you stuff them together, yes. I fully agree with Ken on this point actually.

So now, Ken, I'm glad we can just gang up on Nicole here. Oh, man, this always happens at the end. No, no. So I don't believe that an open-faced sandwich is a sandwich. And I think this is an interesting conventional language. I think that the term open-faced, the adjective, is actually negating the sandwichhood in the same way that fool's gold is not gold. Right? The term fool's is telling you exactly what it's not.

And I believe that's the same with open-faced sandwich. Is the point of an open-faced sandwich to put the two pieces together? No, that's just a sandwich. Yeah. Well, no, the point is that if you were to put them together, you'd have a sandwich. When they're open, it's like saying a flightless bird. Well, it's still a bird, but it's not really, you know, it doesn't qualify. But I agree with you.

It negates. The very fact you have to say open-faced means it's not really, you know, it doesn't qualify. But I agree with you. It negates. The very fact you have to say open face means it's really something else. And that's just a weakness of our language. We used to have a word for that. We called them sops. A sop, like in a soup. You have a sop. It would sop up the stuff. We use the verb, but we don't call that sops anymore. You'd be able to take a slice of bread, put a stew on it or meat or whatever, whatever it was. We just lost that word in English. We're going to bring it back on this podcast. Sops.

Sops used to be, they would put them in wine as well, right? Is that the same? Yeah, totally. Or milk. Yeah, and that's where the term toast comes from. Right. Yeah. Wow, this is so fun.

I just, Nicole, next time you get a glass of wine at a restaurant, just take the bread and throw it in there and go, well, actually, in the Middle Ages, this was very popular. I think I did that in a wine cave in Germany. I'm like 85% sure I did that. Okay, let's get into the absolutely false origin myth of the sandwich. Or maybe you believe this is true. The Earl of Montague.

No, it's totally made up. It's Rabbi Hillel, right? Well, Rabbi Hillel has a pretty good claim because you know you know what happened with that is that there's this this is the Passover Seder where you put

some haroset which is this chopped up fruit and stuff and some horseradish between two pieces of matzah and the Maxwell House company that made the Haggadah called it a Hillel sandwich they made that up there's no historical do you not it a Hillel sandwich. They made that up. There's no,

no historical, you know, do you not believe that Hillel the elder actually did that? Because it's a one, it's a powerful metaphor, you know, for consuming all the, the, the,

the tears and the pain and the happiness together. Well, actually, okay. So can, can you, can you just, can you kind of recount,

can you recount the, the Earl of sandwich, John Montague myth for us? Because I think the listeners should know. So there's a story that the Earl of Sandwich, and Sandwich is in the east, far east coast, southeast coast of England. He had that title. He never came from there. But apparently he was an avid gambler and he didn't want to stop to have a food, even though theoretically he could have taken a fork and eaten something while he was playing cards. But apparently he asked someone, put some meat between two slices of bread because I don't want to stop playing and therefore invented the sandwich.

Now, that thing existed way before he ever did that. But the association of the term does come from him. You know, he coined the term. Popularized it or it was coined in memory of him or something like that. But we definitely get that term from him, even though there's things that are sandwiches long before that. Also, apparently he was wildly incompetent and people tended to hate it. At least that's what my research. Like he was a bad gambler or just a bad person?

No, he was just like a bad. I mean, I imagine there was a lot of fraught relationships with, you know, people of title and certain earls weren't always the best for their subjects back then. But I think it's fascinating that, you know, we see this in other words, too, like the tortilla, for instance, is, I mean, several millennia old, and certainly they were roasting meats, but we don't see the term taco show up in Spanish until I believe the mid 19th century. don't see the term taco show up in Spanish until I believe the mid 19th century. Right. It's very much the slang. Well, the term tortilla is really very interesting because it just means a little pie. It comes from Spanish. And if you ask for a tortilla there, you get eggs and potatoes and stuff. It's a totally different thing.

So it's really just the Spanish showed up and said, what do we call this thing? So, you know, they just they chose the word tortilla. It's a Spanish word, not indigenous. Oh, yeah. God, I kind of didn't even think about that term. Tortilla is the only post-colonialization. So what I'm really interested in is a lot of these words are very new. Right.

And apparently, like sandwich, for instance, could not have existed before the Earl of Sandwich had a massive PR campaign. And the word hot dog is also, you know, very, very recent, 19th century. Very new. But I mean, that said, sausage making goes back thousands of years. So, I mean, I understand that hot dogs rely on a certain modern process to be able to create force meat, right? To emulsify at a very high speed. But I mean, the like the base root concept,

like if you were to go into the Socratic form of what a hot dog is, I mean, that could have predated that. I mean, especially a sandwich, because it's so much more rudimentary of just relying on, you know, some sort of leavened bread and filling, depending on what you believe the sandwich is. So if you look at, let's say, ancient Rome, where sausage sellers were a common thing in the streets and bread sellers, there's pictures of people with breads, you know, in bakeries where they're selling the stuff. That's common street food.

It comes so close to being a hot dog sandwich. You know, it comes that, that, you know, just to claim, you know, oh, here it is in the 19th century. We have a hot dog. It's, it's, it's always been there. Yeah. It's a natural combination. That's very interesting.

Yeah, it's a natural combination. That's very interesting. So, I mean, do you believe that? Did a hot dog exist before the term hot dog was invented? Yeah, of course. I think so. I think things exist. And then we as humans must name them because we have a strong urge to name things.

We want to categorize. Or the name changes, right? Yeah. This is a Frankfurter. In Frankfurt, there's records of people eating those going back to the 13th century. Yeah. And they're exactly the same. And the U.S. has a lot of German people. Did you know that?

Well, yeah. 16% of the United States has a German ancestry. I'm very German. That's where my last name comes from. 49 million Americans, actually. We were sheep farmers. Oh, nice. Can you get into the origin of the term hot dog?

Yeah. Because I think this is just really fascinating etymology of the term hot dog? Yeah. This is just really fascinating. I've always wanted to know. People don't know. Yeah. I don't think anyone knows the exact origin of it. Isn't it like a good looking guy? Like that's a hot dog.

There's a reference, I think, to a polo grounds game where the word hot dog first appears in print. And it refers to the game, not to the hot dog at all which is sort of weird and there's it's a term that you know they used to call it sometimes a dachshund you know or a hot dog just because it looks like that oh that's like the hot dog dogs yeah and the hot dog is that term is there alongside the word frankfurter and alongside the word wiener which just means wiener in English from Vienna. And what people often say is that we stopped using the term Frankfurter consciously, especially in labeling and marketing during World War I when we got into war with Germany. And the German language newspapers disappear and people try to pretend we don't have German heritage. We're not the enemy. Don't harass us because we're Americans.

we don't have German heritage. We're not the enemy. Don't harass us because we're Americans. And the word Frankfurter never really disappeared much, but Americans more consistently use the word hot dog now as a result of that. That's really interesting. I mean, speaking of origin stories and how unreliable they are, I mean, I've read so many different accounts that one, it was like there's the story of a vendor outside of, I believe, Yale, and he was a German vendor. And there was a stereotype at that point that German immigrants were very poor. And the college students were like, he's using dog meat in his sausages. It's a hot dog.

But then you have the dachshund thing and the polo story. And so, like, none of these are likely, you know, I guess, correct. But, I mean, is there anything correct here or do we just have to sort of take the modern culture? I think people people kind of liked the idea or they were terrified and thrilled by the idea that there might be dog in it. Because this is a general conundrum with sausage sausages in general. They're the scraps. They're all the junk that you can't sell as prime cuts. Yeah. And so people kind of like, you know, thought, oh, wouldn't this be funny if they're actually putting dog in there? But that almost certainly never happened. You know, it's a stupid

joke, really. There, I believe, wait, hold on. I wrote this down. There was a, there was an 1843 investigation into a New York meatpacking plant that actually found dog and rats had gotten into the sausage making facility. So that is just a possible. So that's a mistake. Yeah, exactly. There are no food purity laws until 1906 or something like that. So, you know, the stories of like, you know, Upton Sinclair in the jungle.

Yeah. Someone's hand goes into the meat, into the slurry for the meat. Of course that happened, you know, all the time. And insects are still allowed in, you know, food, parts per million of insects. Yeah. You can have like eight spider legs and peanut butter or something like that. So interesting. Yeah. But I think the association with dogs is just silly. It's just silly.

If you were to go to, I mean, let's go back to, say, early 19th century Germany, or God, was it Austria-Hungary back then? I mean, would they consider sausage being served in a roll to be a sandwich? Or had the term sandwich even gotten there? Yeah. Gotten to Germany? Yeah. I mean, I'm wondering because i i feel like we almost fed i don't think so no and it's and i and they do serve it side by side you

know if you go to frankfurt today they will serve you know a hot dog very clearly the same thing with a roll on the side roll on the side and people pick up the pick up the hot dog with their fingers dip it in the mustard bite it bite a of bread. And so it's going down the same, you know, it ends up the same thing, but they just don't slice it and put it on the side. Yes. So basically, we just made it more efficient. Yeah, we made the act of eating a hot dog more efficient. And that's probably why that's where it comes from. That's why people have the association. Yeah, but you could, is a hot dog improved by the combination of all those flavors together? Or are they actually better on their own? Because I find with sandwiches in general, and this applies to hot dogs also, that sometimes the sum of the parts is not greater than they are on their own.

And I would say sometimes, like, if you have a really good cold cut and a really good cheese and a really delicious bread, keep them apart. Eat them separately. Eat them separately. Eat them, you know, like you would in a picnic. And sometimes you put them all together and it's like, oh, I've lost something. So I think it's a hard... That's a good point. So for hot dogs, I think if you take like a classic Chicago hot dog and you put all this junk on it, you lose the flavor.

And heaven for a fan, you put ketchup on it. That's sinful. No. Okay. You know for a fan, you put ketchup on it. That's sinful. No. You know, a hot dog really has to have mustard. The mustard cuts through the grease and it adds some spiciness. But ketchup on a hot dog? God, no. And I think in that case, and I swear I've done this.

I went to a conference in Chicago years ago. This is the International Association of Culinary Professionals. So they should know what they're doing. Can I get an invite? And they serve, uh, yeah, well,

you, you're, you can come. The next one is going to be, um, gosh, they just happened, um,

a month ago, but anyway, yeah, there'll be another one. So anyway, they were serving hot dogs and it was, you know, the Vienna beef,

which is a terrible hot dog, soft bun. And then they put sport peppers and sweet relish and all this junk on. Vienna beef, which is a terrible hot dog, on a really soft bun. And then they put sport peppers and sweet relish and all this junk on. And I thought, this is the worst hot dog I've ever had. And, you know, and I'm a New Yorker. I will say that, you know, with no apology. It's got to be dirty water.

It's got to be sabrette, you know, or Hebrew National is a great hot dog. Or Nathan's is great, too. My mother used to buy the really cheap ones called Best, which were really crummy, super garlicky. But hot dogs are great in the water. And they come in a soft bun. And you just don't, you know, you don't do much to it. Do you remember the scene? You know the producers? It's this wonderful, you know, the producers.

Oh, yeah. It's Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder. And he says, let's go out to lunch. I'm treating. And they end up in Central Park at a hot dog stand. And he says, tonight we're dining al fresco. And they each get a hot dog. And it's hilarious. I mean, okay.

One, that impassioned plea from Ken. One, I got to say that we cannot afford more one-star ratings on this podcast. And, Ken, ever since we've come out against St. Louis-style pizza, because I don't believe it's pizza, it's a matzah. It's what we ate for Passover growing up. We'd bring it to school and people would laugh at us. We don't need to go back. They never laughed at me. It's one week a year.

I don't know what you're talking about. And so if Chicago, for all the Chicagoans out there, Chicago dog is is no it's terrible it's a salad it's a it's a i've never had a chicago dog because i'm waiting i'm waiting to go to chicago this is this is like my brain i'd like have to go to chicago the second i land and i have to go eat a there are four times don't bother four times i'm trying it, dude. I'm going to try. Good reason they call it the second city. It's second.

It's not as good as Chicago. The toppings outweigh the hot dog four to one on a Chicago dog. That's right. It's bizarre. That's fun though. That's fun for me. Nicole, the pickle is the same size as the meat. Honestly, folks, if you have a really good hot dog, let it speak for itself.

Don't mess it up. Sweet relish should never go anywhere near a hot dog. Just like even it doesn't even need mustard if it's a great hot dog. Put it on a bun. Let it be what it is. The hot dog water is the condiment because it steams the bun. Oh, gosh. No way.

I will say this has been really elucidating for me. Sure. really elucidating for me. Sure, me too. And like even, Ken, hearing you talk so passionately about hot dogs, it makes me understand why they are an entirely separate species and classification of food than a sandwich. And also, I mean,

this is, maybe you can speak to this, Ken, but like why do, I mean, you're not inside my brain, but like why do I hold the idea of sandwich to be something that, say, has existed throughout history, right?

Sandwiches are incredibly popular now. The world think, I mean, economics would show that. And I think there's something very quintessentially American about food that you eat with your hands. Finger foods. We really love pizza. We love hamburgers. We love sandwiches. We love hot pockets, hot dogs, whatever it may be. It's that we don't like the formality of using a fork and knife.

And it's partly because we never really learned to do it properly. Because we use the fork in one hand and then we change hands and scoop with it and whatever in in europe they hold their fork in one hand with the tines down and the knife in the other they never take them out of their hands um and they never switch and they never do anything and i think it's made us sort of fearful of messing up of being improper or pushing something with our fingers on the plate you You've seen people do that. And so having food that can be held saves us. And it keeps us in this state of perpetual infantilization in some respects. But on the other hand, cutlery is kind of sick.

Think of this. You're putting metal in your mouth and separating yourself from your food. Think of a culture that uses their hands to eat, India or Africa, where the sensuality of the food, you can feel it in your fingers, you can put it in your mouth. And I think that's the real appeal of a hot dog is that it's very sensual. I mean, not phallic, but you know what I'm saying? It can be both. I won't go there. I won't go there. But food with your hands actually tastes better. You can get more out of it. It's something that's separate and put, you know, knife and fork kind of deal.

And I think that Americans, because we are informal, we're egalitarian, we like a bargain. We like to have a whole meal in one pocket in our hands. And a hot dog kind of does that, you know, especially if you throw chili on it or cheese or whatever, which is great. That's very American thing. And people in Europe or around the rest of the world look at that and say, what a quirky American habit. Isn't that strange? And, you know, historically, this is the best story, is Mrs. Nesbitt, who was the chef for Franklin Delano Roosevelt, notoriously terrible, terrible cook. And I think that that Eleanor hired her in revenge to get at Franklin because he was always sleeping around and such. But she they invited the king and queen of England and served them hot dogs.

of England and they served them hot dogs. And it was like, wait a minute, this is a state dinner and you're giving them this junk? And it's always been a joke, a food historian's joke that Mrs. Nesbitt, or however that came to pass, that the, was it the Duke of Windsor? I don't know. It was British royalty came and they were served hot dogs and they said, this is very good. I think I'll have another. What a silly American thing you guys do. That's incredible. Well, like, what was the response to it? I mean, was it was it kind of patronizing?

Yes, of course. It was very polite. But you could tell that he thought this was the weirdest thing a president would do to a foreign dignitary. a president would do to a foreign dignitary. Well, so, I mean, do you think that the hot dog is the best that American culture has to offer or the worst of American culture or it is morally nebulous? Oh, gosh. No, it's morally charged. It's a very important thing. And I think it speaks of American culture in a very positive way. I mean, pizza and hamburgers and hot dogs and fried chicken and things you can pick up with your hands and eat.

That's ribs. This is the best of American culture. Think about it. That's the best food. And it's the food that if you go around the world and you say, what's American food? That's what they think of, you know, for good reason. I mean, it is crazy seeing the way that we've exported that culture. There is a professional basketball team in the Philippines called the Pure Foods Hot Dogs.

Well, there you go. And so that just shows that the power that this has had. And I mean, I don't know. I'm almost halfway to being convinced that a hot dog is not a sandwich. But I just, it's tough. I mean, Ken, God, I got to get back to it. You'll go to a bar in America, certainly, and you'll see something on the menu called a sausage sandwich.

I've never seen that before. You've never seen a sausage sandwich? Go to the ESPN grill in Anaheim, downtown Disney. I mean, clearly he's right. They do call it that. That communicates an idea. It's just because we don't have a better term. So wait, so what's your proposal? You put sausages on there. And I think I think hot dogs deserve because they're such a dignified food. They deserve to have their own category and don't need to be confused with sandwiches. We have a whole slew of sandwiches. Let's keep them over there.

And we have hot dogs, which are their own thing. And there's no real benefit from trying to put them together. In our minds, in our practice, in our daily conversation, we keep those two concepts separate of what value is it to put them together. I don't think we get anything. I think we lose. I don't think we get anything out of it.

No, there's no real point to doing that. And if you wanted to make a sandwich out of a hot dog, I think it can be done. But no one would say, give me a sandwich and picture in their mind a hot dog ever. Dang. I don't know how to come. I feel like a boxer. I feel like, you know. Yeah, just come out of the ring. Muhammad Ali at the end of his career was really just.

Yeah, I mean, you're just pow, pow, bang, bang, bang. I literally have sweat dripping off my brow here. I know. And this has me thinking about it, I mean, less from a factual perspective and more from an emotional perspective. Like Ken said, hot dogs deserve to have that, you they've earned it foods are emotional they've earned that status of being entirely separate and i'm trying to think of any reason people would have myself included for taxonomizing them as a sandwich other than the very stupid and uh short-sighted and like what temp, temporal centric view that a sandwich is simply bread with things in it. Whereas there's thousands of years of history.

I mean, the term sandwich English invention coming from royalty and a weird PR campaign, like Ken said, I mean, you have bread being baked in Eastern Turkmenistan, you know, that's being filled with,

with meats and they don't care that it's called a sandwich. To me, a 2022 individual. Yeah. You know, there's entire breaks. You don't matter to them. We don't matter. They matter to us because we wouldn't be here without them.

Right. And also sandwiches are a wonderful thing. They are dignified. They're delightful. They're among the perfect foods in the world. Agreed. And why would you? they don't need to the the definition of a sandwich doesn't need to be broadened because we we say two slices of bread put something in the middle sandwich leave it at

that hot dog autonomy baby we're all about hot dog autonomy on this side i man i just i am absolutely floored um and did not expect this to go that way. And I think that's fine in life. Sometimes you can kill your idols. You can kill the things that you thought were important to you. This is just episode one. We got a long way to go, Josh. Who knows? Maybe someone else will come here and sway you the other way.

Maybe I'll get swayed into thinking a hot dog is a sandwich. Who knows? Maybe a sandwich is a hot dog. I don't know. Anything can happen on this podcast. And that's the beauty of this podcast. I'm very excited going forward. This is, I mean, truly mentally taxing. I'm sweating from all of my pits, not just the armpits. Ken, I mean, thank you so much for elucidating on all that. Do you have any closing statements? Anything else you want people to know about just food and it's important to history and culture, the hot dog, anything you want?

Gosh, I think when people think of food history, stop asking for origin stories. It's the least important. Yes, sir. Just wipe this away. No one cares when something was invented. What we should care about is making it well. Got it. when something was invented. What we should care about is making it well and having good hot dogs and good sandwiches as separate things. That's the important thing.

Amen. That's beautiful. Ken, where can the people find you? You got anything you want to plug? Gosh, you can find me, sure. My book on gelatin is coming out for the University of Illinois Press soon. I've already got a book on noodle soup,

which is with them. And if you want to watch videos that I've done, I have my whole food history courses from the great courses and cooking across the ages is in my kitchen with me cooking stuff from ancient times right into the present. That was a ball and a whole lot of books. Incredible. Thanks, Ken. It was a pleasure to have you on. Really appreciate it. It was a pleasure to be here.

Thanks. Holy cannoli, Nicole. I am. Really appreciate it. It was a pleasure to be here. Thanks. Holy cannoli, Nicole. I am exhausted. Me too, but I'm also revived with energy. I don't know. I feel the opposite. I feel beaten in the ground. Did you notice how much I was sweating during that? I did, and I got a little alarmed. I kept looking at you to make sure

you wouldn't pass out. Yeah, you thought I was going to go blind like I did when I drank all that cold reconcentrate. Yeah, I got a little worried about you. No, but I mean, a lot of the things he said really made me rethink my own thoughts about why I want to define it as a sandwich, right? Yeah, 100%. And that was the most fascinating thing to me. That said, I mean, you are probably deeper entrenched into your position about hot dogs. 100%.

I am a hot dog. What is a hot dog? Autonomist. Yeah, I am a hot dog autonom autonomous and I stand strongly by that. And a hot dog is not a sandwich. It's just not. I am still not convinced. I am still not convinced. And I know I may have said that. But like now that, you know, I'm kind of sitting here on my own reflecting on it.

I think Ken said a lot of incredibly compelling things. It made me rethink a lot of the reasons why I want to actually classify it. But what it didn't make me rethink, Nicole, is the like idea of truth, capital T truth. And I still believe that a hot dog is a sandwich. I believe that we see the world in like, you know, kingdom phylum genus species. And I still believe that a sandwich could be an overarching category, at least from the perspective of an American person in the year 2022. I know we got some international listeners out there. So I'm not saying that's the only perspective.

But again, I'm trying to define this for myself. Let's see what happens in our next episode. And I think next episode we got Dr. Calvin Normor, a philosopher, queued up. We have a philosopher coming, if anybody was wondering. Are you not entertained? And I mean, I think he's really going to, I casually threw out the term Socratic forms in the last episode.

He's going to blow our brains up. And I think if there's anything that philosophers do, it's searching for capital T universal truths that exist. And so I'm hoping not just that he'll come around to my position or offer me evidence for my current position, but I'm at least hoping to get more clarity on that. And I think we're going to get it, dude.

I mean, we're going to try. We're going to try. We're going to try our darndest. But boy, for me, listen, at this point, listeners, I love you all. I don't even care what you thought about that. My mind is absolutely blown, and I could not be more excited

to keep this gravy train rolling. Nicole, it wouldn't be an episode of A Hot Dog is a Sandwich without Opinions are the Casserole! That was sultry. We should have more historians on if you're going to sing like that. Man, you guys, Ken got me all hot and by. I was sweating with Ken in here.

So we asked you for your hot dog opinions. And boy, I'm going to go first. There's a lot. Yeah, y'all got a lot of opinions about hot dogs. And we're going to start first up with GMM writer Megan Malone. Nicole, this is addressed to you, so you take it. Nicole, I need your help. I asked for a hot dog with both ketchup and mustard on it at a barbecue, and everyone looked at me like I was insane for not choosing one or the other.

Is that not a standard order? Have I been living a lie? I do this all the time, and you're just around haters baby well no no no okay she's not around haters she's around new yorkers i asked megan this took place in new york and ken albala is from new york he was talking about anti-ketchup they're very anti ketchup there which speaks to the power of the hot dog that's what that's what jane campion's movie should have been called the The Power of the Hot Dog. Don't make up that.

You always find a way to bring up that damn movie. Nicole hates that movie more than anything. So stupid. I was actually, I almost asked Ken about this, but I didn't want to get off on just like a crazy tangent. But I want to be like, how can you disrespect ketchup as a historian? Ketchup has thousands of years of history. I love ketchup on a hot dog. It changed world economies. I love ketchup and mustard on a hot dog.

It was a fermented fish sauce from China. And I like relish. You know what? I love relish on a hot dog It was a fermented fish sauce from China And I like relish, you know what, I love relish on a hot dog I think yeah, hot dog toppings I hear Ken in being a purist And I think there is something great About a plain delicious Well made hot dog But that said, most hot dogs are not that

They are not that Dress it up however you want to It's a cookout, she's at a barbecue You could put chips and freaking soda on your hot dog, and I wouldn't look at you weird. Megan, you are entitled to your happiness. Do whatever you want. All right, next up, we got OK Malindick. Veggie dogs taste the exact same as real hot dogs.

They're all just blended protein and filler. Slap some mustard and onions on a smart dog. Give it to a glizzy fangirl. She wouldn't be able to tell it was an imposter. This is a good opinion to me. I'm a glizzy fangirl, and I could tell the difference between a smart dog and a hot dog. I don't know. Ooh, that's interesting to test. That's because I'm an all-beef frank kind of girl, so that's just my go-to, and I could

tell the difference. This is a position of privilege, Nicole. If you grew up eating all-beef franks, then youto and I could tell the difference. This is a position of privilege, Nicole. If you grew up eating all beef franks, then you might be able to tell the difference. But if you were like me and you were getting the bar S brand from the 99 cent store, that is 60% turkey, pork and chicken and then 40% whatever the heck else they throw in there. I don't know that you could tell the difference between that and a smart dog. I agree that it like hot dogs. I mean, even ditto with chicken nuggets are a great veggie substitute.

Sure. Option. Yeah. I'll take one. I'll eat one, but I will know the difference. Yeah. And it probably will make me a little bit farty. I think I'm going to change my Twitter handle to glizzy fangirl.

I'm into that. Like a BTS stan account, but just for glizzies. I'm in. Okay. a BTS stan account but just for glizzies I'm in okay we got tents on fire says hot dogs with white rice are objectively superior to hot dogs and buns you can have more toppings mix-ins with or without

the risk of said toppings mixing in and being spilled and it branches out to eating hot dogs with liquidy sauces like tapatio or garlic butter this is a good opinion I've never cut up hot dogs and put them in rice I've never cut up hot dogs and put them in rice. I've never done that. It's just not my thing. Having grown up around a lot of Filipino

people, I've eaten a lot of hot dogs with rice. Oh, wow. Now it all makes sense. Doesn't it? Well, that's an interesting thing that Ken brought up, right? We talked about bread bakers in eastern Turkmenistan not caring about the fact that I call something a sandwich out here in California.

And so, I mean, this is another cultural lens to look through hot dogs. Totally. Eating hot dogs with rice. Wow. I think I got to try this. And since you're not eating with your hands, they're right. You can put more liquidy sauces on there, you know? Is it like a classic hot dog or like a longanisa or like something?

No, like we're talking hot dog, hot dogs. Yeah, like straight up weenies. Oh, wow. I'm down. And so I think this is really great. I'm down for more hot dog rice bowls. Okay, I'm down. I'm down.

I got to try this. But can I just have a runny egg on it? Oh, Nicole, if you're hanging with the Filipinos, shout out to all my P&A and Pinoy homies out there. Yeah. Yeah, there's going to be some runny eggs on that rice. You know what my favorite word is from Tagalog? Bebo, which is like cute girl glizzy girl bebo yeah like a bebo actually there's a song by black eyed peas because uh one of the lead singers of black eyed peas is half black half filipino

and uh he had a song sorry weird tangent you can read the next my favorite is pek pek my bajo you know what that means sorry to any filipino fans out there for that one all right last one nicole last one last one uh here we got from at rodrigo sod the brazilian hot dog is the best dog includes toppings such as mashed potato catupiry cheese corn peas lettuce mozzarella mayonnaise ketchup mustard pretty much anything you fancy in there Shout out to Brazilians You're the wild ones Hot dogs, hamburgers, pizza They're throwing corn on there

I love me some corn There's potato sticks on the hot dogs I absolutely love it It is like the wild west In terms of toppings And I'm all for it Push the boundaries Wow, this sounds incredible

But I think the bun, you don't need it at that point. Yeah. At that point. I mean, but that said, you do magically eat it with your hands somehow. It's a big old fat roll. Is the, is the mashed potato like piped on or smeared on? Like what are we talking about? I think it's kind of like, kind of like smeared on, but it's almost like a proto like potato

salad. Nice. Nice. We are probably familiar with a lot of these toppings from going to Brazil. We both frequent Brazilian barbecue a lot. I hate Brazilian. If I've ever had a last meal, it'd going to Brazil. We both frequent Brazilian barbecue a lot. If I ever had a last meal, it would be Brazilian barbecue. 100%. You're right there.

Give me a hot dog on the side. And on that note, let's wrap this up, Nicole. I am freaking exhausted. But hey, before we go, let me talk to you a little bit about Good Mythical Evening. So last year's Good Mythical Evening was a truly groundbreaking experience for us. And we are excited to tell you that round two is officially happening. So this R-rated evening in mythicality is full of twists, turns, and

surprises. The show is live so anything can happen. Last year I got completely covered in olive oil pretty much naked. Yeah, I threw a lot of money at you like from my own wallet. I remember that. I threw like $100 at you. I kept it. I kept that money. Can I have my money back? No, you threw it at me. It's mine. Join us Thursday September 1st to kickstart your Labor Day

weekend vibes. You can get your tickets as early as this Wednesday if you are Mythical Society's second and third degree member. Sign up at mythicalsociety.com. And, of course, thank you all for listening to a hot dog as a sandwich. If you want to be featured on Opinions or Like Casseroles, you can hit us up on Twitter at MythicalChef or at HandyZada with the hashtag OpinionCasserole. And for more Mythical Kitchen, check us out on YouTube where we launch new videos every week. And of course, if you want to share pictures of your dishes or your glizzies, hit us up on Instagram at Mythical Kitchen.

To be clear, she means glizzy hot dog. Yeah, I do. Please stay tuned next week when we speak to a real life philosopher to see if a hot dog is a sandwich. See you next time.