A Hot Dog Is a Sandwich - Is A Hot Dog A Sandwich? ft The Lawyer, Alex Park (Part 3)

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Today, we're joined by lawyer Alex Park in part 3 of our series that attempts to answer the question on all of our minds: is a hot dog a sandwich? Get your tickets now for Good Mythical Evening 2022, exclusively on Moment House! Click here to find out more: https://mythic.al/AHDIASGME Leave us a voicemail at (833) DOG-POD1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. Hey, what, what's this envelope? Nicole, you've been served. Oh my god, you're getting a lawyer involved? I had to, because this is A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. Or is it? Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what?

That makes no sense. A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. What? Welcome to our podcast, A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What? Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show where we break down the world's biggest food debates. I'm your host, Josh Scherer. And I'm your host, Nicole Inaydi. And today is part three of us doing the damn thing, finally trying to end the debate of is a hot dog a sandwich.

And I say trying, Nicole, we're trying so hard. Yeah, it's getting really hairy, you know. The philosopher totally rocked my world, made me think one one way and now Mr. Lawyer Man's making me think a totally another way like what am I supposed to do here you can tell why from previous two conversations a lot of people who go to law school started out as philosophy majors sure a lot of people do get their philosophy yeah that's right because you go from like the abstract of the philosophy where Calvin was literally talking about Socratic forms and human made artifacts and hot dogs and how that relates to ethics and all that. And then, you know, we got Alex, our lawyer, who won.

He's not just any lawyer. He wrote this paper. This is how we got in contact with him, where he actually argued that the government needs to take a stronger stance on what a sandwich is. And so we get all into that on the discussion. It's incredible. But you go from the abstract of how to argue something, how to think about the world into the practical of how do you create laws based on that? And so to me, that was really fascinating.

Totally. I mean, he just seems so he thought one way he thought another kind of like lawyers do, you know, all they have to do is take the law and question it to defend the people that they're trying to defend. So hot dogs, sandwiches, burritos, wraps, everything. You got to take everything into account because those exist in the world. And it's literally a lawyer's job to decide how to draw lines in the world, you know, that separates order from chaos. Also, I felt like I was watching Alex lawyer against himself. to decide how to draw lines in the world, you know, that separates order from chaos. Also, I felt like I was watching Alex lawyer against himself.

I know that was the best part. Yeah. His like brain was being racked of like, do I want the government to define sandwiches? Do I need to define them anymore? Who knows? It was like watching a really skilled quarterback throw the ball as far as he could run under it and catch it. Yeah.

Anyways, it's an incredible conversation. This is the first time that this is stuff that actually affects your life sure in the hot dog debate it is absolutely heating up please enjoy our conversation with lawyer alex park nicole there's something i realized about this whole debate what's that we're not actually talking about whether or not a hot dog is a sandwich right we know what a hot dog we know what a hot dog is. We know what a hot dog is. That's the name of the pod. No, no, no.

Let me explain. What we're really talking about here is what is a sandwich. That's the whole key to this. You have to define a sandwich. Yeah, I guess you have to define a sandwich before you define all the other things that potentially could be a sandwich, right? That's the sticking point. That's what they call like the impasse of this whole debate, right? No one can define what a sandwich is we talked to historian ken albala yes and he

takes a very historical perspective of it right because he's a historian he's obviously right he was like sandwich was invented 1762 john montague earl of sandwich two slices of bread that's what it has to be then we talked to professor calvin normore the metaphysicist right who comes in here and he's like no no sandwiches exist on no. Sandwiches exist on a continuum. You have the perfect stereotype of a sandwich. The ham on rye all the way down to the aberrations like a cracker with cheese and it's up to society to draw the line

of where the sandwich is. But Nicole, we need help to actually draw that line. I guess we do. We need an agent of order amid the chaos. And that's where we get Alex Bark, lawyer. Esquire. Alex, welcome.

Do you go by Esquire? Is that a term that people use? I prefer not to use it, but yeah, people will throw it out there. Strike it from the record. No longer say Esquire. Nicole, stop badgering the witness. Sorry, we're getting all the lawyer terms that we know. Yeah, habeas corpus.

Okay, I'm done. All right, so Alex, first of all, man, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks for coming. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to get to the bottom of this. It's exciting. First off, do you do you think that we can actually end this debate? We as in no three? Well, no, I think, well, maybe maybe we'll come to like a consensus here. And we can agree on something because I was digging, you know, I was digging into it more and more, you know, as I was preparing for this. And it's like it's pretty complicated. So I think it's we might be able to come to a consensus, but I'm not sure about it. Did you prepare for this podcast in the same way that you would like prepare for litigation?

Yeah, I would say, well, you know, I would say I did a good amount of research. A good amount of research. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, so the reason we got in touch with you is because you wrote a piece for the Minnesota Law Review. This is when I believe you were in law school called Constructing the Sandwich, where you argued that the government needs to take a stronger hand in defining a sandwich.

And you yourself set out an actual groundwork and a template for what that means. Can you tell me a little bit about this piece? Yeah. So like you said, it was when I was a law student. Basically, this started off as a lunchtime debate between my friend and I. So I want to give a quick shout out to my friend, Hunter. He's going to be very surprised when he hears about this. Hey, Hunter.

So basically, we would go to lunch like once a week we would uh we love eating together talk about whatever so we were debating about you know what is actually a sandwich and i had this blog post coming up that was due for law review so i was debating you know should i write about something like related to soccer and like the relegation system in the US or should I write about sandwiches and the editor at the time she was like no you have to write about sandwiches you don't have a choice anymore it's looking at you now oh my goodness yeah look at me now so now I'm here so uh thank you uh to Hunter thank you to my editor uh it's all led to this moment the

the climax the apex so yeah it's um it's like really popular to talk about, you know, whether, what is a sandwich? What does it mean? And it seems to be like, go through cycles of being like, a really popular hot topic and like, kind of dying away and then coming back. And I think people, it's all like fun and games, but then sometimes there is like, you know, actual like consequences for people, particularly like food vendors, maybe shopping malls.

Sure. That, you know, the meaning of a sandwich actually really does matter. And as you guys stated, like we don't there isn't really a precise definition or one that people can agree to. So I tried to set out and like propose a definition, which I think is not really encompassing everything now that I've like dug into it a little more. Like, I don't think it's like broad enough, but it is like what I was trying to do. So well, let's let's go into the reasons. Let's go into the reasons why we would actually need to define this, because you write about a court case. I was going to say famous, but i think it might only be famous to like us yeah yeah but this is it's a white city shopping center versus pr restaurants can you tell me about the case yeah so basically like uh there's like a shopping center and they came to an agreement

they had a contract with like a food vendor that was like you know you can't we're not gonna have another food vendor within your like vicinity that sells like more than 10 sandwiches and i think like whatever store was originally there a new like kudoba or something was gonna open up and they're like no like you can't do this this is against like you know our contract your kudoba is like a sandwich purveyor. And it went to court and basically it was like, well, burritos are not sandwiches, but they didn't really have like precise definition. They're like, oh, you know, you should use some common sense. And, you know, we'll look at this dictionary definition. And that's why, like, you know, basically, you know, a burrito is just not a sandwich. You know, that's basically what it

came down to. So, well, it's really interesting to me that in this case, you know, basically, you know, a burrito is just not a sandwich. You know, that's basically what it came down to. So it's really interesting to me that in this case, you actually I mean, one, it's such a silly freaking topic. Like we think this podcast is hilarious that it even exists. Right. We're talking about our Pop-Tarts ravioli on this podcast. But like, is a burrito a sandwich is literally a question that came before the judge at a high court. is literally a question that came before the judge at a high court. That's hilarious. And what I think is funny is they didn't seem to have the tools to be able to answer it.

They were scraping dictionary definitions, you know what I mean? Yeah. Which is wild because we talked about with a philosopher the difference between descriptive and prescriptive language. Correct. Like does a dictionary define what something is? Or does society define what the dictionary definition is? Yeah, and then the dictionary reflects that. But this court case they were i mean they defined a sandwich right by the dictionary definition of and i believe it's two thin slices of bread with a thin

layer of filling which is even stranger because like thin layer what does thin mean what does yeah i think maybe that's like the baseline definition of a sandwich maybe that's what they're trying to get out like miriam webster's was like you need this at well i don't know for sure but maybe they're like you know maybe you need this at minimum to be like qualified as a sandwich yeah yeah but then yeah can you tell me about what the term common sense means because i've heard that term before like a common sense means? Because I've heard that term before, like a common sense definition of, and I've heard that come up in legal cases. But like, I don't know that I have common sense. Common sense ain't so common.

Probably have a t-shirt that says that. I would probably just define it as like what the general population, like the majority of people may consider. Yeah. Like that's how i would interpret it so yeah under your understanding of what a common sense definition of a sandwich is like take out the dictionary definition to me that is why alex that's why i'm wearing this t-shirt right now that says a hot dog sandwich you can get at mythical.com shout out merch gotta plug the merch i'm wearing it too but that's why i'm wearing it is because to me the common sense definition of sandwich is simply just like leavened bread and filling

equals sandwich and to me this is a common sense definition you know what i mean and so that's where i've gotten tripped up i've gotten more complicated my beliefs but that was yeah matt yeah so i think like i would agree that a hot dog should be considered a sandwich actually and i think part of like interesting yeah i think like the i think it was like the national hot dog council of like america they said they said like no like a hot dog is not a sandwich but when you're looking at like the definition like anything you can think of for like a sandwich like it doesn't necessarily have to be like two pieces of bread right because if you go to like subway or jersey mike's it's actually like

a hoagie roll and that how do you like different is that not considered sandwich i mean i think anyone would say that is nicole can i just not anyone though because what we found out historian give me one second ken albala the historian we posed that same thing to him, right? Ditto for a sausage sandwich served inside of a roll that's not a hot dog. He actually disagreed that a sub is a sandwich. Yes, he did say that. He simply said that it exists on a separate linear plane and that we simply don't have the language to accurately describe what that is. the language to define accurately describe what that is my question is if i work at a jimmy johns and in my contract it says you are not allowed to work at a sandwich shop five years later which is

actually that's a real thing that was in a jimmy johns in in the in the uh contracts that uh workers would sign and i go work at a nathan's does that mean no according to your definition like now that a hot dog is a sandwich legally like now that means I can't work at a Nathan's, I can't work at a Cupid's, I can't work at any hot dog shop. That's not fair. They're so different. They're so different. I think that might be, well, I don't know for sure, but sometimes when there's really strict, like, non-compete provisions like that, like, sometimes they're not always enforced. Because, like, if you can only make a living, living like selling hot dogs, then how can they prevent you

from making a living? Right. But I think that's why we need a definition for a sandwich. Actually, I would say I would argue like, that's why we really need a more defined way to like identify sandwiches versus, you know, if you don't think a hot dog should be included. So it would, you know, be an important part of, you know, that hypothetical situation. Wait, really quick. I think I know the origins. Alex, do you know anything about Jimmy John's insane non-compete laws? You ever hear about that? No, I don't. It was literally like employees. It was something like an eight year non-compete where

people making sandwiches for minimum wage were supposedly not allowed to work for any other sandwich chain. And then it's this one up against to a judge. And he was like, no, this is not enforceable. That's bonkers. Yeah. But I think I know the origin, which we're all from L.A. and people on this podcast love when we get into insanely specific L.A. details.

But bear with me. There was a sandwich shop in Westwood called Sockos. OK. There is rumor. The guys that workaholics work there, there is rumor that somebody stole the bread recipe from Jimmy John's and started Sockos. And if you remember their bread,

it was remarkably similar. I have a conspiracy theory that that's the reason Jimmy John's had a non-enforceable non-compete. Wow. Anyways, that's just a bit of a sidebar in LA history. Yeah, that was a hardcore sidebar. That makes sense to me. Can you tell me the conclusion like how did this um how did this case of white city restaurants versus or how did the case of white city shopping

center versus pr restaurants end up yeah so i believe the court was basically like you know this is a burrito is not a sandwich and it shouldn't be considered correct so yeah that's like basically what they stated. And I guess if you were to extrapolate that, then they weren't in breach of their contract by allowing Qdoba to open up near, like in the vicinity of this other restaurant. That seems like a win.

That seems like a win for Justice in my mind. I feel like Justice was served there. The gavel went down. Like nobody ever, so the other restaurant I believe is Panera, which I haven't been to in about 15 years. But like if I'm faced with a Panera or a burrito, those are not substitute goods for each other. Of course not. Right.

But that said, a hot dog, you know, and a sandwich, those are at least closer substitute goods. A hot dog is a substitute good for a tuna sandwich from Panera bread with a side of tomato basil soup or a side salad? Hold on, hold on. However, though, like let's talk about intent and what motivation people have to define sandwiches because different state laws define sandwiches differently based on, you know, effectively what the goal is, right? And so New York, for instance, defines a sandwich as, they say, cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten, whether made on bread, on bagels, on rolls, in pitas, in wraps or otherwise, regardless of the filling or number of layers. So New York takes like a radical sandwich inclusionism. And the reason why is that New York, I believe, taxes.

Yeah. reason why is that in New York, I believe taxes. Yeah. And so like, you know, that kind of states that there are a lot of different reasons that you would want to classify things as sandwiches. But this is a miscarriage of justice, right? Well, I think like you're right. Well, I guess it comes down to the money, right? They really want to collect on the on taxes, I'm guessing. they really want to collect on the on taxes i'm guessing so they've created this super broad definition of sandwiches um which i think like at first i was super opposed to that idea as well it's like how can you include like a pita or like i don't know like a taco or like this or that like as a sandwich but i started like digging into it and you get it gets kind of interesting i think the pita poses like a lot of like questions and problems like it always defining a sandwich actually yeah so i don't know i've

been thinking about it a little bit and it's like you know is is the pita actually a sandwich but i mean do we do a disservice to like a pita by calling it a sandwich yeah we do a disservice to a taco by calling it a sandwich too and And so that's where, honestly, the historical view of this all comes into play, right? Is that the term sandwich, it's obviously an Anglo term. It's something that, you know, people in America, in Britain, in Europe, it was originally a British dude who coined the term, his name, you know, sandwich is literally a place. And so, and it didn't come about till 1762, but obviously people have been throwing things in pitas

for thousands of years you know that's just existed so it's weird to impose the term sandwich on that and then going farther if we're talking about

like a John Bing you know or I mean a Lafa wrap it's like these things are getting farther and farther away from sandwich

but I think what New York did and this is where I was like two weeks ago Nicole before, before we started this, this is where I was in my sandwich belief. I would have told you that all of these are sandwiches because they all share one thing in common. And this is just the way that I love to eat bread. It's not all leavened though, because New York says that leavening doesn't have to be in the equation. They're saying burritos are sandwiches. They are handheld foods meant to be eaten on the go. Right. And so can that just be a definition of sandwich? Is that a way that we could define it? A handheld food meant to be like a handheld starch wrapped food, which the starch wrapping helps you eat it on the go because it doesn't get your hands dirty. Right. That could be a definition of sandwich yeah so i'm

actually like kind of in line with that because when you think about when you go all the way back to like how the like sandwich was invented it was like i think the earl of sandwich like playing a card game or something like that yeah and they needed something to eat but i'm sure like that was the reason like you know thousands of years ago when they had like flatbread or like, you know, things like that. So things that came before the sandwich. So I think like, you have to look at like the purpose of what is a sandwich, like what purpose does it serve? And I think you're right, Josh, like, it's really about like having something convenient that you can eat on the go something handheld so i think like when you if you think

about it in that context a lot of things fall under that now right we have like the burrito the hot dog you know the classic sandwich we have like hoagie rolls we have like tacos now we have all bagel sandwiches bagels like we have all all sorts of stuff so i think like you know do we call all of those things sandwiches or do we like scratch the name sandwich and come up with like a new term that's like encompasses everything? Because, you know, you don't want to do a disservice to these other foods that actually came like before the sandwich. But I think it starts to include like a lot of things that people would, you know, be like, you know, no way can this be considered a sandwich. And that's where we get into the idea of common sense definition, right? Because an ice cream cone could be a sandwich under this that's where we get into the idea of common sense definition, right? Because an ice cream

cone could be a sandwich under this definition. I made it on the go. I'm hobbing around Venice. I'm looking sexy in my Daisy Dukes. You mean to tell me an ice cream sandwich is a sandwich? Just because it's called a sandwich? I don't, under this framework,

Nicole, I don't know where I stand yet. I don't know where I stand. Do not put words in my mouth. Speak? Can I speak? I'm I stand. Do not put words in my mouth. But I think, okay, maybe, maybe. Speak? Can I speak? I'm so sorry. You've been talking this whole time. He doesn't let me speak anymore, Maggie.

So the art of sandwiching something does not mean that that thing is a sandwich. I would agree with that, yes. I think sandwich as a verb is distinctly different from sandwiches. Exactly. So if I am sandwiching a cookie and ice cream and a cookie and I eat it, that is not the same as a ham sandwich. I'm so sorry. No, I agree with you. I agree with you, Nicole.

It is not the same. But it's a handheld starch food on the go. So is it a sandwich? Well, no. No way, dude. This is ridiculous. Let's start now. Now that we have a place to start with, the New York's radical standards of inclusionism,

we can start making exceptions. I would say something that can reasonably be considered a substantively nutritious meal. I think that's a good starting point. And, you know, it'll knock out the desserts at least, right? Okay, give me an out-of-the-box example. I love that we have a mediator, Nicole. I love that we have legal counsel.. Yeah. We have legal counsel.

We've needed you for a long time. Do you do friend divorces? You said the D word already. I don't know. I think after today, I'm going to add that into my resume. Yeah. But yeah. I need a definition of, okay, so then give me an out of the box, something that I wouldn't typically think of a sandwich as a sandwich, according to your, both of your definitions. Hit me with it. I would say a nice buckwheat crepe filled with ham and Gruyere cheese. That's a sandwich now under this.

Do you agree? No. Okay. So I'm not 100% sure. Yeah. So I think like under like certain definitions, right, that applies. But I think like this is the part we need to, the nitty gritty now. We need to create like the exclusions of what, you know, I guess the masses want.

Like do we want certain things to be considered a sandwich or not and should they or is there just no way around it because i think when you look at like what was kind of interesting was uh there's this other case right sabritas v us that uh where they go really in depth about like bread right because you would think like what's like a key characteristic of a sandwich it's it's the bread it's the bread yeah what is what is considered like bread actually because i think in that case they're debating like is it the hard taco shell like bread because if it was considered bread they wouldn't be taxed like yeah they wouldn't have as much like tax or it would be zero percent tax or something

like that but if it was considered like something else then it would be uh it would be taxed at like 10 or something when it was being like imported or exported so it's like they go into this super in-depth conversation about bread and i think because people don't really know there aren't like legal like places to go look for definitions of bread and this. So they were looking at cookbooks. They had expert witnesses to talk about bread. Who was an expert bread witness? Like a baker? Also,

Sabritas, which is a division of Frito-Lay because, boy, do I love their little puffed wheat snacks. They're like, chicharrones de arena? Man, they're good. But I mean, they straight up sued the United States. This is just Sabritas against the empire. Wow. Which is. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's fascinating because they tried to. And this kind of speaks into a bit of like a cultural centrism.

Right. When you're you can only do things through a certain lens. Because literally they tried to classify taco shells under, quote, other bakersers wares which had a higher tariff rate and so they didn't even know how to define it they were like er i don't think this is bread but they're not exactly chips even though they kind of taste like chips uh we'll put it in other and so that's where this are going down and eventually uh the court did just did side with sabritas and say that this does qualify as bread. Right. And I believe the reason was because it functions as bread, right? You use it to make a taco.

You use it to make what is a substantively nutritious meal with a starch outside. But that said, there was another thing that wasn't just taco shells in Sabritas vs. U.S. It was about Muncho's potato chips. Y'all ever had a Muncho? Never have I ever had a Muncho. I've never had a Muncho. What the heck is a Muncho? You don't need to have a Muncho's potato chips. Y'all ever had a Muncho? Never have I ever had a Muncho.

I've never had a Muncho. What the heck is a Muncho? You don't need to have a Muncho. You've never seen them at like a 7-Eleven? They're in the bright red bag and they look like they were packaged in the 60s? No. Okay, so they are a predecessor, I believe, to the Pringle, which are – here, Alex, maybe we can school you on some food law here.

Yeah. Check this out. So Pringles people consider consider potato chips but they are not legally defined as potato chips correct because they're i believe a potato crisp they got away with a processed potato crisp it's a processed potato crisp because you're not frying a whole slice of a potato like lays like kettle like whatever um you are pulverizing the potato and dehydrating it, reformulating it with different binders and then putting it, you know, shaping it and frying it.

And that's how munchos are made. And so you look at like the taco shells where they say that, well, it's the intent, it's the use that makes this bread. But then in the case of munchos, they were like, no, these are not chips because the process to make them differs so much from that of a normal potato chip. And so that's what trips me out is it doesn't seem consistent. Right, right. And even within that case, because they were when they were talking about like bread and like what qualifies as bread, they were saying that like the frying process and the process of making like that hard taco shell doesn't necessarily mean it's not considered bread right so it is like kind of inconsistent and you

know again like this is why we need to figure out you know what is the sandwich because we're going to have these continue like inconsistent or like these inconsistencies will like continue if you know we don't have like you know know, one solid definition, you know, well, it's difficult. It's hard, but let's get into the framework that you put forward in constructing the sandwich. I can, I can read it out for you. I got, I got a quote. Yeah. Okay. All right, cool. So this is what you propose. And I don't know if you still stand by this. This is when you were a young whippersnapper in law school, just a hard charging bull, you know, you were summering with the law firms. Is that what they call it? Summering?

You know, you were summering with the law firms. Is that what they call it? Summering? Yeah. Summer. Yeah. Being a summer, a summer associate. Yeah. All right.

So you said a sandwich must consist of one slice of bread with filling placed upon it. So open to a sandwich or two or more separate slices of bread with filling between the two pieces. Additionally, single or multiple pieces of bread cannot be rolled together like a burrito wrap or taco. The filling cannot be placed together like a burrito wrap or taco. The filling cannot be placed inside the pocket of bread like pita. So under your framework, burritos, hot dogs, gyros, wraps, and tacos would not qualify as a sandwich. So you're on record.

You're on record, sir, saying a hot dog would not qualify as a sandwich. But an open-faced sandwich, closed-faced sandwich, or burger would qualify as a sandwich. So you were formerly, at least, no on a hot dog as a sandwich, but yes on a burger would qualify as a sandwich. So you were formerly at least no on a hot dog as a sandwich, but yes, on a burger as a sandwich. Yeah, I felt like the burger was just too hard to get around. And there's just no way to like not call it a sandwich. It's like a, I guess like a form of sandwich if you want to call it that. And yeah, I've since this definition was created, I've changed my tune on certain things like like the hot dog. And I think like it's it's hard to like like what is actually like a sandwich.

And it's like, yeah, I keep saying that, but it's so like difficult. It's like this never ending debate. And I have a hard time with like the open face sandwich actually now. Like I included that because other like legal authorities, like states have included that as like open-faced sandwich. You were swayed. Yeah. I was like, who am I to argue against these, you know, these lawyers,

these government authorities. But no, like I, like the open-faced sandwich is generally not like a convenient method of eating. Right. You need like a fork and knife. You up holding it yeah yeah and that's if it's not like soaked in gravy or like too heavy or something like that right so i don't know i don't really know if like if we look at like the purpose of like a sandwich and like or what you want to consider like a sandwich like it's not convenient at all really and i don't like that's where things get tricky though because like let's say you know a talk is the taco like a sandwich now because it is like a

convenient method of eating but no it doesn't it doesn't have like a crease right like like a hoagie like people come down on like this crease argument like does it have to have like a crease maybe or does it need to be like it doesn't have to be like have a crease or does it have to be two slices of bread or does it need to be like one or the other can include both so um i think there's like an argument to be made about like the crease in the sandwich and whether you know that's like a qualifying part of being considered a sandwich the crease claw the sequel to the Santa Claws, not starring Tim Allen, saying weird stuff on Twitter these days.

Finding a resolute definition that everybody can agree on, including the courts, the people, that seems impossible. You can do what New York did, but it's still, it the courts, the people, that seems impossible. You can do what New York did, but it's still – it's a little unsettling, right? You know, telling somebody that a burrito is a sandwich. A buttered bagel is a sandwich? That's tough.

I can't really – I can't really, you know, agree with that. KFC Double Down? That's not a sandwich. No, that's just a good meal, though. That's just a good meal that gets your fingers all sticky. There's something comforting about what I, Alexander, I asked you earlier about constitutional law. How much do you know about originalism versus living constitutionalism? Oh, good grief.

Oh, a little. I would say like if we're going to go by like all the way back to England and like be like, oh, you know, what's the purpose of a sandwich? If we're going to go by like all the way back to England and like be like, oh, you know, what's the purpose of a sandwich? We're kind of going by like, you know, like originalism. Right. Taking a more conservative approach. Nicole, buckle up. This is going to suck. Oh, man.

Yeah. But if we think about like maybe like the cost as some people like think about the Constitution that it was written in a way to like evolve over time which is kind of crazy to me like how people back then like thought about like oh hundreds from years from now it'll be able to like adapt which is i mean it's awesome like i it's like it's just like mind-blowing that people were like so smart like in general that's why we have amendments what is that why we have amendments well no but okay oh god i'm not about to draw a Second Amendment parallel, am I? Don't do it. No, but like literally, I mean, the term sandwich as used back in 1762, right? You can view that as two slices of bread. That's what Count Albala, our historian, believed. If you're an originalist, then you go, that is the only thing that a sandwich can be.

But if you're like, say, a living sandwich list, then you believe that that definition can change. And I see why it's so much easier to be an originalist, right? Yeah, it's a lot less stressful. If you just say this is a hard and fast rule and then we can build off of there, because right now we're living in chaos. We're talking about ice cream cones, cookie sandwiches, crepes. And so I don't know, is there any sort of merit or is that a coward's way out just to say a sandwich is two slices of bread that's it well i think there is merit to it because yeah it does

make it easier to define and in like in the legal context like everyone can follow it right like this is what it has to you would basically be able to be like it needs xyz boom like that's a sandwich but like do we i don't know like do we do a disservice to certain things that might you know fall under that like category i don't so it's like it's uh it's like an easy way to define it but i don't know if it's the right way to define it and then you paint yourself into other corners like we're talking about with subway right yeah then we have to simply say Subway does not sell sandwiches. And there are even strange laws about prepared foods. Like, I'll never forget when Subway's $5 footlong right deal was going on,

and Subway had just added toasters because Quiznos was breathing down their neck. RIP Quiznos, they made a great sandwich. There's no more Quiznos? I think they're really struggling. But there was a time when Subway was threatened by Quiznos. It's because of this. It's a great commercial. a time when Subway was threatened by Quiznos. It's because of this. That's a great commercial. A commercial for the heck of Quiznos.

Subway had just added toasters. It was the first time. They didn't have toasters for forever. Subway toasters? What's a Subway toaster? They'll ask if you want your sandwich toasted. That didn't exist for, like, ever, dude. That's a toaster? So a toaster is a toasted Subway sandwich? No, no, no. I'm saying Subway put, like, the physical appliance of a toaster in their stores. Oh, I so a toaster is a toasted Subway sandwich no no no I'm saying Subway put like the

physical appliance of a toaster in their stores oh I thought a toaster was like a new thing like a new thing hey you haven't seen

Steph Curry's commercial for the new Subway toaster yeah I was like what are you talking about Subway toasters he's like I'm toasting up from three no so Subway

they started taxing sandwiches that were toasted more because they were now in like a different category of prepared food. Hot foods. It was now a hot food as opposed to cold food and cold food were meant to protect sandwiches. This happened in New York, 1971 hot dog tax where they taxed any hot meal that I believe was between 10 cents and a dollar at the time. And like the only damn food that fell in that category were hot dogs.

And so even if you were to take, you know, this very strict originalist view, you're still going to end up with the same problems that you did before. Right. You know, where you're arguing different types. And I think it's interesting in the USDA. So we got a lot of different definitions of sandwiches from a lot of governing bodies here, right? So USDA gets into sandwich-like foods and sandwich-type foods and, quote, non-traditional

sandwiches. What does that even mean? Sandwich-like. So, okay, okay. So real quick. The USDA says, or distinguishes between closed and open-faced sandwiches, indicating that both are considered sandwiches. It also describes burritos and fajitas as, quote, sandwich-like.

Fajitas? Sandwich-like. Hamburgers and frankfurters as quote sandwich types and then here's my favorite strombolis as quote not a traditional sandwich first of all plural of stromboli is stromboli that's the plural okay you have you have one strombolo you got three stromboli congratulations but no i mean where do we does that help anybody like sandwich like sandwich type proto sandwiches maybe um i don't know because that's like getting towards like more of that spectrum of a sandwich right and like defining things along the spectrum and i don't know if that's like super helpful i guess like if people

were aware and like we're always defining things like sandwich, sandwich, like sandwich type, then, you know, you would be able to write something like that, like in a contract and you can say, all right, we accept sandwiches, but not sandwich-like foods or sandwich-type foods. Yeah. Yeah. That would work. Nicole, what's your revelation? I'm having a revelation. I just, like, sandwiches are a spectrum. And some things fall into the spectrum, but some things don't.

And I don't think a hot dog fits into it. You think it's outside of the full spectrum of sandwiches? If a burrito is, a hot dog is. But a hamburger can be on the spectrum. If you're a doe, I did. Do you care what kind of pants the guy who shot you was wearing? I don't know. I was going to quote my cousin Vinny at some point

because I had to. But really, you don't believe it would fall anywhere near the spectrum. I am literally, you know, the Kinsley scale? Yeah.

Yeah. Like one, one, one, one, one, one, one,

one. I believe it's, wait, the Kinsley scale, I believe it's zero to six based on purely gay and purely straight. Is that what you're talking about?

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So some things, I mean, I mean, I'm just thinking of a rainbow right now. My brain has just... Alex, you broke Nicole. You broke Nicole's brain. No, no, no, you're helping me. Sometimes you need to break down to build back up

again. So I'm thinking of a rainbow, okay? And then like an Earl of Sandwich sandwich is like red, okay? Yeah. Because that's evergreen. We know that that's a sandwich. But then you get into and it's like subs, hoagies, and then it goes into like hamburgers. Like this is like, you have to understand that this is a very,

this is like a revelation for me. But hot dogs, I don't see it there. Hamburgers I do. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Peanut pockets, not really. Let's talk about the hot dog. Let's talk about the hot dog Let's talk about the hot dog

versus hamburger dichotomy because a lot of people they would say, like, if you believe that a hot dog is not a sandwich you are also, in my belief, very likely to believe that a hamburger is not a sandwich. Not true. I think most people I think a poll would reflect that. And which is why I was shocked by Alex's

You think a poll? Why don't you make a poll? I will. I'm not right. I'm doing a podcast right now.? Why don't you make a poll? I will. I'm not doing a podcast right now. Go make a poll. Go to Pew Research Center. Quinnipiac. Quinnipiac. But no, that's why, Alex, I was shocked in your initial. I was shocked.

What an overstated thing to say. I was appalled. You were a little bit bemused. I was a little bit bemused by the fact that under your framework, a hot dog would not have been a sandwich, but a hamburger would have. Because to me, if we're talking about like a contract, right? So Panera bread, I feel like a hot dog and a hamburger

would be equally threatening competitors to a Panera, right? I guess like, I don't totally agree that if you think like a hamburger is a sandwich, then like a hot dog, like if you believe that one is not a sandwich then like a hot dog like if you've if you believe that one is not a sandwich then the other one is not also i think like for me the

confusion about like the hot dog really comes down to like the hoagie right or like a subway sandwich like those types of roll but if a subway moved in but if a subway hold on if a subway moved next to a panera that's an obvious threat. Yes, that's what I'm saying. And so if you don't consider a hot dog a sandwich, you wouldn't have to consider it. And then, Alex, Panera's suing you into the ground. If you open a Panera... I disagree. I'm saying, like, if you consider, like, a Subway sandwich to be a sandwich, then you should consider a hot dog

to be a sandwich as well. No, because if I own a shopping center, and if I want to have a Panera, and then I want to have a Nathan's right next to it, that's not a big deal for me, because I know that they're not substitute goods for one another, which is why I'm changing my shirt. Wait, but Nicole. What? I feel like I'm mediating now.

What? So Alex just threw out, that's a bombshell, right? Yes. That if a Subway sandwich is a sandwich, then so is a hot dog. No. Which I agree. They're so phenotypically similar. The fillings are so different.

But what if you add like a, I mean, think about a Venezuelan hot dog, right? That's a big old Italian roll with a wiener stuffed in there and a bunch of stuff on that. Do you believe that's a sub? No, I don't think that's a sub. It's just processed meat. It's not a sub. It's not a hoagie. It's not a grinder.

That's a damn hot dog. So the tube of meat, the shape of the tube meat. The tube is iconic. What about a frickindale? I don't care about the frickindale. To Dutch, let the record show that Nicole has, do we have a stenographer? Let the record show that Nicole has switched t-shirts and is now wearing a hot dog is not a sandwich.

Meggie is our stenographer. They got cool keyboards. But I think like, I mean, but a hot dog has like something inside it's like a filling right yeah it has like that crease too same as like a a roll i guess like a subway sandwich has that single crease but there's no way you could say like a subway sandwich with which also has the filling is like not a sandwich i guess but and then say like a hot dog is not a sandwich as well like it's they're they're basically the same are you calling me absurd no no well this is where this is where i had a lot of like i had to do a lot of thinking look look look inside myself like is a hot dog

really sandwich i did a lot of reflecting meditation. That's all I do. Yeah. All I do is reflect and meditate. I'm like disagreeing with my old definition, basically. And I think like I failed to see like, you know, I failed to recognize like a Subway sandwich or like a Jersey Mike's sub like as a sandwich. But most people would consider not everyone, but most people would consider that to be a sandwich as well. Most people would consider, not everyone, but most people would consider that to be a sandwich as well. I consider them to be a sandwich too, but I think the tube of meat is so iconic that it deserves autonomy. Like, it's just, it just doesn't make sense why it wouldn't. Well, so this is a good segue.

Alex brought up the National Hot Dog Council, which won. I would love to be president of that one day. Yeah, me too. Can we get tickets? Can we just be like, can we co-run the National Hot Dog Council? I don't want to run it. I just want to be a part of it. Yeah, I just want like an ambassador or something. But you mentioned that they don't consider hot dogs to be a sandwich. And I think the reason that's why we're talking to a business person who has personal stake in this, right? That if you call a hot dog a sandwich, you are forsaking its cultural importance as a separate entity, right?

And I think you can maybe even draw parallels to something like a taco like i am wholly unwilling to call a taco a sandwich me too in which this goes against like what we talked about with the new york law right but i can't bring myself as somebody who one grew up in southern california and god do i love mexican food and and having the knowledge that tortillas predate leavened bread by 10,000 years. Sure. The spark, the miracle of nixtamalization to create corn to call that a sandwich is

a disservice. Totally. And if you're working for the National Hot Dog Council and you feel that strongly about hot dogs. Also, I love that in this scenario, I assume everyone's working for the National Hot Dog Council out of passion, you know, and not just like, well, I don't know, I was a franchisee of Wienerschnitzel and I ended up here. But you're sort of, you know, you're denouncing it as being important. Exactly.

Same goes with a pita. Like as a pita. Yeah. But listen, if I'm in the Middle East and I say, give me a pita sandwich, if I say, give me a pita, the sandwich is implied because you're cutting it open and you're filling it. Well, what do you mean the sandwich is implied? I don't think the sandwich is implied. With a pita? Yeah, is implied because you're cutting it open and you're filling it well what do you mean the sandwich is implied i don't think the sandwich is implied if with a pita yeah because i think you're just ordering a pita like and like oh so you think that deserves its own its own iconicism as well they call their own things right they they call you know uh lafa pita

yeah it's like pita pocket pita wrap pita sandwich pita yeah pita was stuff And I mean that even You know Like we talked about With our historian Ken The sandwich Predates the term sandwich They literally Yeah Alex this is what they

Literally called it in England Shakespeare actually Referenced it In his plays It was called Wait for this Branding nightmare Meat and bread

Meat and bread That's what they called it You go to a vendor You go give me some Meat and bread And they would Give it to you, right? And so, I mean, maybe the term doesn't need to be that defined. But again, in law, it does.

Alex, right now, if we are to create a new legal framework that actually is written into law that satisfies the most amount of people, because we're not going to end this debate for everybody, but what we can hope to do is satisfy the highest amount of people, Alexi de Tocqueville, tyranny of the majority, it's real, whatever. How do we define that? How do you define it right now? Yeah. So this is like a nightmare because I think it's so difficult. It really is. Yeah. So I, and like going back to like the PETA, I think like there's so, like the PETA is so complicated because like like the rest of the complicated yeah if you want to say it's like you know a sandwich is something that's

filled and if you want to go by like a definition of bread like or what is considered bread like i think a pita would fall under like you know a type of bread essentially it's leavened it's baked it's bread yeah yeah then it's like well does it fall under a sandwich then becauseed, it's baked. It's bread, pita bread. Yeah. Then it's like, well, does it fall under a sandwich then? Because it gets, it's complicated. But I think the way to satisfy like the most people is maybe we toss out like the open face sandwich for now. Okay, cool. Diversion, diversion.

It's done. Because that creates a lot of like issues as well. Because maybe if we get rid of like open face, you know, things that are supposed to be like open or like are presented open. Maybe we can, you know, exclude the taco then. Right. And then exclude like, I don't know, like a bagel that's just a half bagel with something on it. So we can start excluding some things. And I think that would, you know, make people happy. And then I think like, you know, we happy and then uh i think like you know we have obviously something with two slices of bread is a sandwich right yeah that's just like a common

theme among all definition of sandwiches so we have to include that and it has to have some sort of filling now what we want to consider filling like is just like a like butter good enough like i think we have to maybe include like the that has to be like a substantial meal substantial maybe yeah and that can be defined you can figure that out via like a common sense definition of what substantial meal means right like that's that's acceptable on a quarter yeah okay yeah so we're passing i'm tracking so far this is working for me and i think we have to try and exclude things like a burrito or wrap, like things that are like enclosed, maybe like maybe we want to take those things and exclude them from being

considered a sandwich. And then that should alleviate some of those concerns. But I guess if you like mash like a roll like hard enough, it becomes like enclosed. But it's, you know but it's you know it's meant to be open like all the pictures show it like as open you know you could see like the toppings on the side so whereas like in a burrito you you're not going to see the toppings on like the side of it like it's closed completely you know and like an empanada is like well i don't want to make things more complicated. Yeah. We're excluding.

Exclusionary role. Yeah. Yeah. So like those maybe I think like if we're if we can come to a consensus like on those three things, at least like, you know, that's like a really good framework for defining a sandwich. And then maybe we'll have to exclude some more things when we can think of them. But yeah, I think things that are traditionally flat and you wrap it or roll it, that should be excluded. Okay. And things that are completely closed, like the burrito, let's take those out. Okay.

And then we'll take out the open face. Yeah. Crepes were never really in there. Crepes was, yeah. That was stupid. So that one is out now too. And like, you know, I think like we have, now we're left with like, you know, the roll,

like a hoagie roll or like, you know, some kind of bread roll, like French bread or something. And then, you know, like the traditional, like slices of bread, I think. Do you guys agree? Or where do you think we stand now? Here's the thing. Let's just talk about the legal system in general.

We're searching, Nicole. Who does the legal system protect? Who are you? Who do you work for? No, but like we want a simple cut and dry. One, I did agree with all of those points. I agreed with the majority of what you said. My mind was creating exceptions and all this.

But like you said, it's it is a process. Right. And that's how you create like precedent from cases. Due process. Right. Because they've the USDA. I mean, they did their damnedest U.S. customs to define what these, you know, imports were. Yeah.

And then you get cases like Sabritas versus the U.S. that shows there are exceptions. So, I mean, I think we just have to view this as one. I think that's a great framework set out. But we also have to accept that there are going to be exclusions from the rule. There are going to be aberrations. There's going to be a new food that's invented. I mean, Ken was talking about how they make a sort of proto hot dog in Germany by creating a fully enclosed bread cone and just shoving it in. And so, you know, you understand that the food is this like

wide, vast, beautiful world. New things are going to come up. But I think if you have a framework like Alex set out, that's really helpful, you know. And so that's what we're doing right now with the hot dog. And so, I mean, Alex, final answer, is a hot dog a sandwich? I'm going to have to go with yes it is a sandwich I agree under this newly proposed definition it would still be considered a sandwich I fully agree Nicole you're out I don't agree I'm sorry

I don't agree thank you for your lovely thank you for your lovely conversation but I'm sorry Alex I'd like to sue Nicole for libel I'd like to countersue Josh for libel I'm going to countersue that countersue Nicole stepped on my toe one day you stepped on my toe

more than once Alex man thank you so much for this conversation this is my favorite one so far I feel like I have now more ammunition for all the people that come at me online about my bad opinions. And also, I know that we have legal counsel on retainer.

Yeah, on retainer. I don't know what retainer means. Alex, I appreciate it, man. You got any closing statements? No, I mean, like, thank you guys for having me. This was great. I, you know, it led to a lot of introspection. I had to, you know, go against what I previously believed, actually.

So I think like it's really opened my mind to the world of sandwiches and can't wait to, you know, see where this goes from here. Me too. Are you saying we outlawyered you? Um, well, you know, I was trying to change my mind as time was going on, but you know, I'm open to that too. You guys can outlaw me. It's totally fine with me. You guys are the authorities on food. You know, I love, you know, i love all your hot takes on food so you know i'll go with it yeah wait hold on wait do you want us to shout out ballard spar would they would they think that's funny or would they like not want that oh i would say like they seem pretty pumped about this oh hell yeah actually and they think it's pretty funny so yeah we could give a shout out to a

ballard spar llp where uh you know i'm a mergers and acquisitions attorney in the business transactions department. We do a lot of like emerging company venture capital work as well. We have a big media law practice as well. So all like related to corporate work. So yeah, it's been, you know, Ballard Spar. Thank you guys for letting me do this. Really happy to be representing you. Shout out Ballard Spar. Ballard Spar has always you guys for letting me do this. Really happy to be representing you. Shout out Ballard Spar. Ballard Spar has always been me and Nicole's favorite law firm in the greater St. Paul, Minneapolis area. That's right. That's where y'all are, right?

Well, we're actually a national firm in the headquarters in Philadelphia. And we have 15 offices, including Los Angeles. So, yeah, but I'm in the Minneapolis office. We have a strong contingent of attorneys here in Minneapolis. Heck yeah, we're going to stop by the LA office and just bring hot dogs. And they're going to be like, what the hell is wrong with you? Please leave our nice building. All right.

Thanks again, Alex. Thanks, Alex. All right. Thank you. Cheers, man. Nicole, words cannot express how meaningful that conversation was to me. Josh, I got to tell you something. You're sweaty again. What happened? I thought I wouldn't. OK, I got to tell you something. You're sweaty again.

What happened? I thought I wouldn't. Okay. So I'll tell you why I've been so sweaty. It's because I've been building this series up in my mind for so long. Yeah. The passion. She's coming out of your pores.

Yeah. Because I don't know. This is, it's the namesake debate and I wanted to treat it very seriously. And I hope that people understand that we are. Super serious. I mean, you and I can only get so serious before we start uh just screaming my cousin Vinny lines at the mergers and acquisitions lawyer in Minnesota you know what I mean um but this was really clarifying to me in a way right not to me it was the opposite it was it was um what's the opposite of clarifying obfuscating I was so obfuscated I'm I'm thoroughly obfuscated Where do you stand now?

Alex is gone Where do you stand? You're talking about rainbows and spectrums I think Alex A hot dog is not a sandwich Lawyered you into like hot dog synesthesia Yeah Like how Kanye sees

I have synesthesia Do you? I have a very specific form Can't talk about it on the podcast Oh Bro what? But like I just can't I just can't wrap my head around the fact that a hot dog is a sandwich.

He tried. And I just, now I'm just rebelling. Yeah. I don't want the government in my hot dogs. I don't want philosophy in my hot dogs. I don't want history in my hot dogs. I want none of that. I don't care anymore.

I'm rebelling. A hot dog is not a sandwich. So I want none of that. I don't care anymore. I'm rebelling. A hot dog is not a sandwich. So I came away from that. He posited that if you believe a Subway sandwich, a hoagie, is a sandwich, you must believe a hot dog is a sandwich. I agree with that. And that has been one of my original stances. You firmly disagree. I do.

But it seems like there's not a lot of logic in the disagreement, if that makes sense, right? If you're saying that's just a two-meat. However, that's why I'm really, really glad next week we're talking to Morgan Walsh, business person, hot dog, shop owner of Cupid's Hot Dogs out in the Valley. That's right. I feel like I'm setting up for the big thing we've been missing here is emotion, right? That's true. History, philosophy, law. We need some actual pathos in this we need some emotion

about like hey here's why a hot dog is i need someone who makes money off of hot dogs yeah tell me if a hot dog is a livelihood is tethered to it that's right that's right and so i right now i am firmly more than ever a hot dog is a sandwich and i think that needs to be written into law but also i see the cracks i can see where the cracks open up right if life was based purely on logic we would all just be blobs and the law changes all the time right and philosophers never give you straight answers that's right historians i don't know they just kind of they're just kind of reread stuff yeah reread stuff that other people did oh man well this is i'm still All right. Y'all know it wouldn't be

a hot dog as a sandwich without hearing from you. So it's time for Opinions Are Like Casserole. First up, we got at DarthRath24. The best hot dog is your average

whatever store brand good old reliable roasted over a campfire but not for too long. Mustard, ketchup, maybe sauerkraut to make an interesting done. Campfire dog. Sounds good. I love campfire dogs. I've never had one.

I don't know how. I've missed that. How the hell have you never had a campfire dog? You? And I spent plenty of time in the Pookanoos at my Nana's Lake House when I was like a small kid. Yeah, because I had a great time at Lake Wallenpaupack in the Pookanoos at my at my nana's lake house when i was like a small kid yeah because i had a great time at lake wall and pop back in the pookanoos um and we had campfires going we'd make s'mores all the time and somehow never roasted a hot dog over a purely wild fire well honey i love you i love a good grilled hot dog the casing gets all crackly and burnt but

the hot dog still stays kind of cold it's it's just temperature danger zone 100 it's like tuna tataki but it's a nice seared outside but it's so fun there's nothing like roasting weenies over a fire have you done s'mores i've no i do s'mores all the time not only that i've cooked i've like cooked uh really nice meals over campfires i'll like make a jerry-rigged grill sure and all that you wrap everything in foil, bury it in coals, do that. I just like, I don't know. Now all I want to do is just roast a hot dog over an open fire

like her grandpappy used to do. Come over to the campsite. This sounds good. Darth, we're coming camping with you. Good news. Farva318 says, a hot dog bun is best left untoasted. While you would normally want

the textural difference between the bun and the dog, toasting the bun tends to take away its sweetness. I 100% agree. I love an untoasted burger. Not a burger bun. A hot dog bun. Burger buns, I do like toasted.

I agree with that. But hot dog bun, leave it soft. Leave it squishy. Leave it delicious. I agree entirely. We were actually talking about this yesterday. I think a hot dog can get ruined with a toasted bun. It's crunchy.

It gets crunchy. Don't that. And the reason you want, in my opinion, a toasted bun with a burger is that there is, there are exogenous juices. Exogenous. I don't know what the word exogenous means. Don't look it up. But there are exogenous juices in a burger, right?

That you need some protection from. A hot dog, it's so processed that the juiciness stays on the inside. Exogenous, relating to or developing from external factors. Boom, exogenous juices in a burger. I mean, it's not exogenous because you're actively putting the juices on the burger and the burger has the juices. Sounds sexy.

But no, I agree. I like steamed hot dog buns. I never thought about it taking away from the sweetness, but I agree with that because when it's just kind of steamed from the hot dog sweat, then you get like this almost cakey quality to it. That's why I love hot dogs cooked in dirty water because it makes the bun even softer. I'm not going to agree with that, but... Give me the dirty water dogs.

I just want to think of consomme from the hot dog. Just give me a cup. That's so disgusting. All right. So disgusting. All right. So disgusting. All right. At IRC Lee 2000, the only way to eat a hot dog is with mac and cheese. Whether you eat mac and cheese on the side or cut the hot dog up in the mac and cheese.

If you eat a hot dog all by itself with any other side than mac and cheese, you are hot dogging incorrectly. You know what's funny? They spelled hot dogging as a verb with two words. Technically, it's one. Shout out Scrabble. Did you ever eat hotdogs and mac and cheese?

Of course. We actually did a whole video about it together. If you remember. Josh's memory like deletes like a floppy disk. Dude, too much content. We can't remember anything we do.

We made Kraft mac and cheese with Hebrew Nationals and ketchup. Yeah, I absolutely love, you cut up the hot dogs, Hebrew National, because you want the beefy quality. Yeah, beef beef. If you're using like a store-bought box mac and cheese,

then like, it doesn't taste particularly cheesy. It's kind of just creamy and muted. Totally. Yeah, that was great. It's comforting. Yeah, I love that. It's a mouth hug. Yeah, that muted flavor.

Then you get the beefy dogs and this, I will put some ketchup, maybe a little sriracha on there. Yeah. Huge. I haven't had it in a long time, but that sounds like a hug, a mouth hug. All right, want to do one more? Let's do one more. Golden Cheesy says, the chili dog is the next evolution.

What? Oh, chili spelled C-H-I-L-L-Y. That's right, a cold hot dog. You thought the hot ones had infinite pliability nah um the idea of just straight up eating a cold hot dog can't do it yeah i do a lot of things can't do that why not you'd eat cold bologna you'd eat bologna both hot and cold why not hot dog hot dog just little bitty bologna it's the shape yeah you don't like the cold phallus it's really cold phallus there's like there's phallus. And there's like

a wetness that I just can't get around. Try it off on some paper towels. Why would I if I'm going to do that extra step, why don't I just put it in the microwave for like seven seconds? Actually, I do that. Yeah, I am the same way. I can't stomach cold hot dogs for some reason. And I understand that it's the same bologna. And for some reason, it's

a menthol block. Can't do it. I might try it with you. I have a buddy that's from Guam and block. Can't do it. I might try it with you. I have a buddy that's from Guam and he eats cold spam. I'm going to try it with you. Yeah, I don't know why I said that. That was really weird. Golden cheesy. I'm not going to like come to your home.

You're going to go to their freaking apartment? I'm guessing it's an apartment. I don't know. I don't know why. They might have a nice home in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They might have a big old ranch style house. I think they have a dingy apartment in Chicago just like eating cold hot dogs. I don't know.

They could be in a McMansion, Rancho Cucamonga. We don't know where they're eating cold. We don't know where they're eating. What's a McMansion? McMansion's like when you build a giant development with these giant mansions, but they all look the same. So it's like a McDonald's franchise, but mansions. Like they're all just the same. You know what I mean?

It's like creepy. Can we build a McMansion ticket? Listen, I know they like suck. They're bad or whatever. I want to live in a McMansion. I just want a pool. I just want a pool. Let's find a whatever. I want to live in a McVansion. I just want to pool. I just want to pool. Let's find a place.

I want my hot dogs warm and I want my mansions Mc. Let's do it in Nevada. Yeah. What are you doing? We're going to Henderson, Nevada, baby. And also, hey, don't forget to go vote your conscience, support your own hot dog values by going to mythical.com, checking out our a hot dog is a Sandwich or A Hot Dog is Not a Sandwich campaign t-shirts. Nicole and I are really stoked on these.

We helped on the designs. Yeah, we did. We just said yes or no. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. We have an incredible design team and the t-shirts are incredible. And we're excited to be donating a portion of the proceeds to No Kid Hungry, a nonprofit working to solve problems of hunger and poverty in the United States and around the world. Choose your side and let the whole world know. Shirts available for a limited

time at mythical.com. And we've only got a couple episodes left for this series, and we want you to be a part of the finale. Coming up on July 31st, we'll be taking our podcast to the people. So if you live in the LA area or you got a full tank of gas and really feel like driving or like you got Southwest points, we want to invite you to come see us at Smorgasburg, LA on July 31st. There'll be podcasting, great food, a couple other fun surprises. You really don't want to miss it. I'm super stoked. So stay tuned on Instagram at Mythical Kitchen for all the details.

I'm so excited. And I just can't hide it. I'm about to go to Smorgasburg and sell hot dogs. Podcast. Hot dogs. That was brutal. And on that embarrassing note, thank you for listening to a hot dogs and sandwich. If you want to be featured on opinions or like casseroles, you can hit us up on Twitter at MythicalChef or and hand these on with the hashtag opinion casserole.

For more Mythical Kitchen, check us out on YouTube where we launch new videos every week. And of course, if you want to share pictures of your dishes, hit us up on Instagram at Mythical Kitchen. And stay tuned next week when we speak to a real life hot dog business person on a hot dog is a sandwich or is it? Was I supposed to do that with you? I don't know. Sorry.

We'll see you next time. Bye.