A Hot Dog Is a Sandwich - Is Wine A Scam? ft. Jon Scherer

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

Today, we're joined by Jon Scherer, certified wine expert (and Josh's older brother), to discuss: is wine a scam? To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. We've all been there. The Cheesecake Factory server hands you the wine menu and panic ensues. What's the difference between Syrah and Shiraz? Is a Cab Franc just a Cabernet that went to grad school? Which Chardonnay is the butteriest and does it even matter because is wine just a huge scam? This is A Hot Dog is a Sandwich.

Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what? That makes no sense. A hot dog is a sandwichwich. Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what? That makes no sense. A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich. What? Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show where we break down the world's biggest food debates. I'm your host, Josh Scherer.

And I'm your host, Nicole Hendizadeh. And today we are joined by a very special guest. So special. This very special guest once played a game with me called Fart Machine where when I was seven years old he would make me lay on the ground and go fart machine, fart machine as he and his friends kicked me. That is because today's special guest

is my brother John who is also a wine expert. And John, I'm hoping you can speak to one, why the game Fart Machine existed, what is wrong with you, and also what your wine qualifications are. Well, I think now I drink to suppress the memories of that game. My wine qualifications, they're kind of spread out.

Wine's been a big part of my life for maybe seven years. I buy too much of it. Some days I drink too much of it. Sure. So I have a WCET or WESET, depending on what country you're in, Wine and Spirits Education Trust Level 3 certification. Level 3? Level 3.

That's a lot of levels. Josh is a diamond in Rocket League. Yeah, I'm diamond 2, level 3 in Rocket League, so it's pretty close to your wine level. Oh, I was also for about three whole weeks an assistant sommelier at a fine dining restaurant. That didn't go so well. I've made some wine. I've picked some grapes. I've sold some wine.

I sold some more wine. I was a marketing consultant briefly for some direct consumer wine sales. And then for about a year and a half, I was a management accountant for wine. That's a pretty extensive resume here. But we could have, not to flex on you, John, I don't mean this. You are a very special guest. But I mean, we could have gone out there, gotten some sort of, you know, name in the wine industry.

But the reason I wanted to have you on here, one, you are one of the smartest people I know and you do have the qualifications. But two, you are the person that I talk to the most about wine being a scam because I drink the most wine with you. And again, no matter how this conversation goes, I am incredibly grateful for all the nice, fancy wines that you have given me. I don't want to cut off the flow of that. So know that I am very grateful. But, you know, I've always kind of thought in my heart of hearts that wine is a huge scam and it doesn't make sense and the wool is being pulled over people's eyes. It's very easy to do that when the scam product gets you drunk.

But I want to hear your opinions as an expert on that. Yeah, my opinion is that the flow will probably stop if you offend me today. I think my answer is, yeah, wine's a scam, but I like it. So are you willing to get duped? You're just down to get a shot? Yeah, I just hope I get duped for $20, not $100 on a bottle of wine if it happens. But you got to have some losses to get some wins, I just hope I get duped for $20, not $100 on a bottle of wine if it happens. But you got to have some losses to get some wins, I guess. Do you ultimately think – so wine being a scam, however, if you get enough pleasure out of those wins that you're talking about, you think it's a scam, that ultimately is worth it?

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying. And it's tough. Naturally, I want to go and say fish is a scam, right? All this stuff is a scam. And you can get really into the nitty gritty of wine and, you know, different countries are going to have different rules. But, you know, is it a scam that your, you know, Napa Valley Chardonnay can have 24.9% fruit from Fresno in it from a different vintage? And, you know, it still costs you $84 or something. You know, is that the scam? I mean, that's just written down and people can access that information84 or something. Is that the scam?

I mean, that's just written down and people can access that information. Can I just say that I think Fresno – Do you read wine bottles? Okay, I only read wine bottles, number one, if they look pretty. Number two, if I want to know the tasting notes. But do tasting notes – okay, honestly. Is the world going to collapse if I have shrimp scampi with a glass of red wine? Probably.

No, no, probably. Not at all. And food and wine pairings, that's arguably a big scam, too. I mean, how many sips of wine are you actually going to have with your scampi? I mean, how many shrimps are in there? You're probably going to have three or four sips, and maybe you're going to have something else on the table that does go with red wine. But also, do you like red wine? Drink the red wine.

Do you like it cold? Drink it cold. You know, do what makes you happy. But what about those, like, wine hardos that are, like, it needs to be at this temperature, you need to store it this way, and, like, all of those details? Is that a scam, John? A little bit.

You're a scam artist, John. No, I'm being serious because I don't think, maybe I'm just, like, my palate isn't refined enough, but, like, if I have a $10 wine from Trader Joe's or if I have like a $45 wine from God knows where, am I going – like does it really matter? Does it matter? No, it's not life or death. It doesn't really matter. But I mean there are certain things that – like food storage, right?

Like you avoid spoilage at a certain temperature. If you store your red wine in the trunk of your car like I think my brother has. that, you know, like food storage, right? Like you avoid spoilage at a certain temperature. You know, if you store your red wine in the trunk of your car, like I think my brother has. I have two bottles of Prosecco in my car right now. I've stored raw chicken and yogurt in the trunk of my car. Red wine is the least of your worries. You just reminded me. Because I'll go shopping and I'll keep this stuff here and then I'll go to the gym after

work for like two hours. I'm not home for another two and a half hours. That chicken and yogurt's been sweating in my trunk. Chicken and yogurt. But that said, I have definitely lost bottles of wine too. Is it just overheating or like? Yeah, it speeds up the aging process. It literally cooks it, right? So you are kind of destroying the product at that point, or you're just kind of, you know, aging it. Maybe you like it better that way, but you know, the cork can dry out if you don't store it on its

side for long enough and then oxygen gets in. But I mean, beyond that, like, no, you don't need a cellar temp, you know, Pinot Noir if you like it, you know, pretty hot or ice cold. I got a couple of this. I haven't spoken in eight seconds. I have a couple of things to say. So one, speaking to the scam nature of wine, I have definitely had bottles that have either been corked or tainted by the heat, but I at least have enough of a palate to know when a wine's tainted, right? When it's not right. When you, when it smells like pure paint thinner, is that a good like a reasoning? To not drink it?

Well, no, I mean, if it smells like paint thinner to me, that's kind of like, and tastes super just kind of acrid right on the palate. Like to me, that signifies that the wine's like something's gone wrong here. I've served you a wine like that. And I think maybe you still kind of liked it. Maybe you were just humoring me. But it depends, man. There's a lot of people that will immediately turn their noses up to that. You know, wine judges would be like faulty, doesn't even get a score, something like that. But, you know, you get some wines out of, what, northeastern Italy.

I got to think of like directions in my head near the Slovenian border. And like they're aged oxidatively on skins for so long. And it's like, you know, it's its own thing. You know, if they do it intentionally, then maybe that's where the line is that it's you can drink that and enjoy it. But if you don't enjoy it, then don't drink it. That's what makes this such an incredible scam. It reminds like the way that he's talking to us, I feel like is the way that we normally

talk to the audience on the podcast. I guess. When someone's like, obviously, an Uncrustable is not a ravioli. And they're like, well, if you really look to the Emilia-Romagna region, you'll see that several of the ravioli dozers, there they call it pasta di agnolo twitti. And there they'll add somewhat of a sodium bicarbonate. You know what I mean? If you can scream in people's brains to be like, well, actually that paint thinner taste that makes you want to vomit is just the

oxidative quality of the Slovenian aging method. You know? Well, okay. So where I was going with that was I definitely had bottles that at least to me, I taste them were like, this tastes like butthole.

This is tainted. However, I was like cooking for some friends and I know they don't know enough about wine. And I'm like, screw it. This is all I have. I'm not going to run to the BevMo. I'm a pour it. And then, you know, I drink and go, man, that's some good wine. And they go, Oh yeah, this wine is good. And I'm like, whew,

power of suggestion. You know, people want to be included into some sort of a club. And to me, that is the root of a lot of wine, right? You want to be seen as a certain type of person. You want to be seen as cultured, as erudite, as important as someone having good taste. And that is what gets a lot of people to either create some sort of identity around wine to then, you know, be able to drink some paint thinner and say that, you know, wow, this is delicious and I'm cultured because of it. Yeah. And that's, and that's what separates, you know, maybe wine being a scam from things like fish or, you know, maybe art's the closest thing, but like, I don't know, fine dining

or $9 loaves of sourdough bread that I also enjoy, you know, it's that there's not bread and fish tourism per se. There's not fish tasting rooms. There's not all this stuff. You don't buy fish and store it just to never drink it and maybe sell it online at a later date or sell a cellar at auction. So yeah, wine is definitely a unique scam in that sense, you know, in that it's both a, you know, on one hand, it's a grocery item. And on the other hand, it's like a piece of fine art. Yeah. And it's funny because, you know, like a piece of fine art, you can get a postcard of the Mona Lisa for $2 or you can, you know, buy the real thing. I assume you probably just can't buy it. I don't think you can.

I think you heist it. You heist it. You Thomas Crown affair it. You, like, Captain Zeta-Jones do the little entrapment thing to steal it. Yeah, that was a great scene. I love that scene. But I'm saying there's such incredible levels to something like fine art or wine where wine, there are bottles that I assume cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? One of the ones that they dug up from like the Titanic, you know? That did or didn't belong to Thomas Jefferson. Yeah.

Yeah. That one. Was that a real thing? Yeah. There was a big, maybe still ongoing lawsuit from one of the, is it Coke, Koch brothers, you know, the big political donors. He, one of them had, I don't know the difference between them. One of them had bought one or a few bottles that allegedly belonged to Thomas Jefferson. And there's all these provenance things. And the sellers don't remember who they bought it from and when. But yeah, no, that's probably a scam. Wait, do you drink it?

Do you drink the 300-year-old wine? That's the thing. You never drink it. You can't test it. There's not like, oh, we have this verified 300-year-old bottle of wine or however many years it's been. You can't. What happened if you did drink it? Probably get a little drunk.

Yeah, but would you get super drunk? Like a toad venom situation? What? Toad venom? Yeah, you know, you take the toad venom, you go to Coachella. You lick the toad? You lick the toad. You've never heard that? No.

That was like a thing. I'm a sheltered virgin girl. When we grew up, I assume we all took the same California curriculum of drug education classes, where we were led to believe that a lot of people would come up to us and say, I have barbiturates. Do you want a barbiturate? I go, no, thank you. They taught us about toad venom. They were like, if anyone tells you to lick a toad, don't do it because that's got a hallucinogen in it.

What? That happened in school? And then you're going to become a Democrat. Yeah. Welcome to Orange County Public School Education. I never heard of licking the toad. The only thing that reminds me of is Futurama, how like there's a toad on the TV. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's probably referential to it. Yeah. But anyways, back to Thomas Jefferson wine and wine in general being a scam. You mentioned, you know, drink what makes you happy, drink what tastes good. And that seems to be like the dominant discourse, right? Where now people are saying like wine is something meant to be enjoyed. You don't need to spend a hundred plus dollars on it, whatever. But ultimately, right, this is commerce. They're trying to get you to buy things, you know, and is that, do you think that the

change in tone between like wine is an elite thing versus wine is a populist thing is just trying to get people to buy more wine? Cause it seems like it's working. It might be. Um, you know, I don't know if it's trying to get, you know, market share from non-wine drinkers or trying to get wine drinkers to try different things. So that's, I don't know if it's the industry trying to cannibalize itself or not. I mean, you know, I guess one of my other wine things that I did, the direct consumer wine sales, really the biggest piece of value in research that I came across from somebody else was that there's high involvement and low involvement, you know, wine drinkers. Now, they're all wine drinkers, right?

They're all involved, but it kind of put them into two groups of people who always drink the same thing and then people who, you know, for whom there's never enough. There's always, you know, you need to try something else, something else, something else. And it's naturally people want to market towards the people that are high involvement, but it's the low involvement ones, right? That'll be loyal to your brand and never leave you. Interesting. Because when we think about wine drinkers, we tend to think about wine snobs. We turn them into a caricature, right? Did either of y'all watch Frasier?

No, I never watched Frasier. You never watched Frasier? No. There is this, I mean, Frasier, obviously, it's like a mid-'90s classic. Shout out to Andrew Ray from Binging with Babish because that dude has the Seattle skyline from Frasier tattooed on his own body. But there is this caricature of a food critic. And he is like, it shows what people thought of food and wine people in the 90s, right? And he's like very flamboyant.

He's always dressed in a bow tie. And he speaks with a very posh mid-Atlantic accent. Oh, you must try the Chardonnay and the oysters over at L'Occitane or whatever. And that's like how he talks. But I feel like, you know, that is sort of going out of style and people now, when you think of a wine drinker, it's probably, you know,

your average... It's a hipster with orange wine. Well, no, I was going to say the opposite. What? No way! Because I think the hipster with an orange wine phenomenon, which we can talk about that next, is very, like, kind of small compared to the 34-year-old trying to take the edge off of the bottle of Chardonnay. Interesting. Is that who's like really driving the wine? Because the top wine buyer in the world is Costco, right?

Right. Costco is the most important commercial player in the wine industry. And I never buy wine there. I buy big screen TVs and then I return them at the end of the year to get all my money back and rotisserie chickens. That's what I do. Kirkland vodka. Same as Grey Goose. That's an old-time sale.

But yeah, I mean, is that who's like driving the industry? Is it just the person buying a bottle of Chardonnay to stop their kids from screaming? They're not feeding their kids wine, to be clear. That was a weird thing to say. kids from screaming. They're not feeding their kids wine, to be clear. That was a weird thing to say. Yeah, I don't know those stats. But I mean, you know, having worked for a company that made, you know, bottom shelf, mid shelf and top shelf, it was the bottom shelf that was driving all of the financial decisions. It wasn't driving the, you know, the greater brand image and what a lot of us, you know, thought we were working for. But that's what people were buying. You know,

so I don't actually know if Costco is the biggest wine buyer in the world. They might be up there. I mean, I remember in Australia, the first or second biggest was Qantas Airlines. Oh, interesting. And we always kind of had to keep that in mind, like think about how often they're flying and how much wine they're serving and selling people wine based off of airline mile points. But yeah, I really have to think that that is what's actually driving the industry, not this small little world that I live in. That gets a little bit insular where you is what's actually driving the industry. Not, not this small little, you know, world that I live in that, that gets a little bit insular where you forget what people actually buy and drink when they're not, you know, out eating oysters at Luxy 10.

What is Luxy 10? Don't they sell like, It's a soap store. And I was going to tell you, Hey man, that's a soap store that smells like lavender, but I didn't want to like, you know, screw with your group. You know what's funny is I, I've just, I've like seen that soap store and some fancy West View malls or Westfield malls. And I'm like, I want to go, you know, screw with your group. You know what's funny is I've just, I've like seen that soap store and some fancy Westview malls or Westfield malls.

And I'm like, I want to go drink wine and all that soap. Speaking of bottom shelf wine. I know what you're going to say. Well, I don't know if you do, because I feel like you're a two buck chuck gal. I was just about to say I love 2 Buck Chuck. I've never been a 2 Buck Chuck gal because to me it's not a communal enough experience. I get the big old jug of Carla Rossi Sweet Red. Oh, I see.

And I mix vodka and fruit juice with it and then I call it sangria. Nice. But, I mean, if you were like you with the palate that you have, with the wine industry knowledge that you have, like could you just sit down and drink some Charles Shaw Merlot? For people who don't know what 2 Buck Chuck is, Charles Shaw is the brand. I'm sure John, you know way more about it than I do. Probably not. But they

are sold at primarily Trader Joe's. They used to be $1.99 per bottle, giving it the name 2 Buck Chuck, and then they raised the price to $2.49, then $2.99, and then like Costco rotisserie chickens9 then 299 and then like costco rotisserie chickens they they just people rioted and they had to drop the price down to $1.99 like one is that stuff just tastes like poison to you and is that also like ruining the environment

if i can take a half a step back as somebody who was previously a management accountant for a big wine company i don't know how the heck they do it just knowing what corks cost what glass costs what transportation costs, what transportation costs, what labels cost, not to mention whatever goes into it and their overheads. A bottle of water costs $2 from a gas station. I really don't know how they do it.

Is it bad for the environment? I don't know. They use really, really lightweight glass. I don't know about their farming practices. I assume they're probably not the most friendly, but at least, you know, they cut down on a lot of their like transport costs by I'm sure reducing the glass weight.

That's a big part of like wastage in the wine industry. Could I enjoy it? No, I'd probably like mix it with a Diet Coke and enjoy that. Oh, that is nice. Oh, don't they do that in Spain? Caminocho. They do that in Spain? Argentina too.

Argentina, nice. Yeah. Yeah. I think Spain, maybe more so like red wine and squirt, like a grapefruit soda. Maybe both. That sounds delightful. Really? No, I can Spain maybe more so like red wine and squirt like a grapefruit soda Maybe both That sounds delightful Really? No, I can't imagine that

Well, I'm a huge One of my favorite drinks in the world is the Fernet Coca from Argentina You're supposed to cut You cut a Coke bottle in half and then you just fill it with ice, Fernet and Coca-Cola What do you mean you cut it?

You cut a bottle? Yeah, you cut the bottle You're supposed to drink it out of the cut open bottle that's how they do it we're talking about a plastic bottle right yeah you're not like using like a miter saw or something like a plasma cutter like a little bottle how thirsty are you how much how much that adult jaeger can you suck down wait okay and then use like a like a bread knife to cut it i'm just trying to visualize it right now scissors someone criticized me from argentina for not drinking it out of a cut-up Coke bottle. Yeah, okay.

Okay, I get it. It makes sense. But anyway, so down to the actual idea of wine tasting notes. I think that's where a lot of people get tripped up, including myself. I think I have a pretty solid palate, but I will taste wine, and I'm always just like, ah, melon skin, grapefruit, rubber hose. Mom used to beat me with a rubber hose. But, like like I mean

how real are those because I mean I've watched the documentary Psalm about the master sommelier test me too it looks incredibly I saw it in school

oh really yeah you watched it for like culinary school we had like a wine portion at school interesting and I was like

yeah I was so into it and then I was like yeah I don't really care anymore it's freaking impressive to watch at least on the surface not knowing much you much else about it. I mean, they will take a bottle of wine and they have like six tasting notes that they have to hit.

And they're blind tasting this wine and they have to get them exactly on the nose. But I mean, is that like a standardized testing where it like tests more your ability to take a test as opposed to actually knowledge? Yeah. Yeah. It's deduction. Blind tasting. They have a grid they go through. And, you know, you're not tasting out of like a black glass.

You can see it, right? So automatically you can deduce like what's the color concentration, right? Is this deep red? Is it a Syrah, Cabernet, Merlot? Or is it a light red like maybe a Pinot Noir, a Nebbiolo, a Grenache, something like that? So right away, visually, you can kind of narrow it down a lot. But actually, so I listened to the Psalm TV podcast, and I was listening to one yesterday, and it was about BS in the wine industry. And he was telling a story, and he's like, this might be weird coming from me as the guy who is the reason that people say fresh-cut garden hose.

Oh, that's funny. And new tennis ball. I'm like, oh, new tennis ball. That's Australian Riesling. That's legit. I know that. That's wild to me. But he was telling this story about they kept know, they kept calling all of these.

I think he said Burgundy. Maybe it was Northern Rhone. They kept saying this is, oh, crushed violets, fresh violets, dried violets. So he goes to a nursery and he tries to buy these violets. And he's telling the person there, like, oh, I need, you know, to know what these smell like. And she, you know, gave him this weird look and brought him violets and said, what do these smell like? He said, they're odorless. She's like, that's correct. Violets are odorless? Yeah. And so I started thinking like, oh crap, I've done that before. I've smelled a saran. I'm

like, oh, purple flowers, violets, whatever. Well, the flower itself is odorless, but you can extract an oil that has a scent. No, because I've tried, like I love perfume the way that you love. Nicole, what if I told you perfume is also a scam? Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm a perfume collector. Our podcast is scam. Like, I smelled, I smelled perfumes that are, that are violet heavy. So when you say that, I'm like, are you sure?

Because like my soul is being crushed right now because I have violet perfumes. And I'm like, no, I think I know what violet smells like. But like, who knows? Because the actual flower is odorless. And I guess maybe my takeaway is I propagated that because I heard somebody else say it, and then somehow it embedded itself. And I'm like, Syrah, purple flowers, violet's a purple flower. But a lot of these tasting notes, they get so far out there, and they kind of lose their connection.

But there's certain things that, on deduction? It doesn't have to be tasting notes, but you can kind of categorize, you know, red fruits taste different than black fruits, right? Cherries and raspberries are different than, you know, blueberries and blackberries and stuff like that. You know, there's citrus fruits taste different from orchard fruits, from tropical fruits. And so kind of you try to put it in those sort of boxes. But then, you know, viscosity is a big thing. You know, body is a real thing in wine. You know, is it, you know, water-like? Is it skim milk-like?

Is it, you know, whole milk-like as far as its viscosity? So certain things are legit, but then you really get way, way, way out there as far as some tasting notes. Like fresh-cut garden hose. Like maybe that just means kind of plasticky, which some Rieslings, like they definitely smell like, you know, science wise Syrah smells like black pepper because of rotundin. Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon Blanc and some other ones in that family,

they'll smell like green bell pepper or jalapeno because of methoxypyrazines. Like it's the same flavor. Sounds sexy. Rad. Right? This is awesome. I'm learning so much. I told you I'm a good fake wine expert. But, you know, there's certain things, you know, like that, chemically, that do carry through.

But then, you know, a lot of it is kind of, you know, up to the artist, right? Yeah. And I think that's a good point about wine is that it's so much about storytelling. Yeah. Right? Like, if you were to get one of these bottles that smells like fresh-cut garden hose or whatever, and in a vacuum, if you just smelled it, and you're like, hmm, smells like a Ziploc bag. You know, fresh cut garden hose, that inspires open can of tennis balls. It inspires a certain emotion that people may have a connection to, right?

Literally, the idea of fresh cut garden hose to me, and this is maybe looking way too deep, along with open can of tennis balls implies to me that one, you have a yard, which means that you're probably well off. Right? So these are references that literally rich people can understand. I never had a yard. I've never smelled fresh cut garden hose because one, do you have to cut garden hoses? I don't know about lawn

maintenance because I live in a damn city and I don't have a ton of money. Yeah, I know when you open the can of the tennis balls, it does yeah, and I don't know why, but I can imagine that smell only because like I've been to a tennis court before like who goes to

tennis courts rich people these are literally storytelling devices to get rich people to spend the money by inspiring a certain emotion and like

it's this similar thing with the fine art world right you know the quickest way to up the value of a painting murder the artist then you get a story

that's it truly an artist dies a horrific death, and suddenly their work is worth so much more. It's because it's all about storytelling and marketing and PR, which is why I am inclined to call it a scam. However, we work in a scam industry.

How much money have you spent on fine dining? A stupid amount. A stupid amount. So much of that stuff, they're just lying to you about. They're not. That fish is not wild line caught off the Barbary coast. No, they're lying. Bel Campo, you followed the Bel Campo scandal?

Of course, and I was heartbroken because it was my favorite burger. This is, and I love Bel Campo. Every meat I've gotten there is delicious. Me too, me too. And I was scammed. What they were doing is they were taking meats from Rocker Brothers. Shout out to Burbank, and Rocker Brothers makes, you know, a fine meat product. But they were taking these commodity meats that are being sold to mid-market restaurants. Yeah.

And they were literally just cutting open the packages of meats from industrial farms and then putting them, cleaning them up, putting them in their case and lying and being like, these are grass fed. You know, a cow. His name was Henry. He lived on the Belizean coast. He had a wife and children and a 401k. And then they upmarked it for like double. Yeah. I ate that steak and went, you can taste the grass.

So, so much of this crap is, you know, a scam. But if you're putting money into something that increases your joy, right? That's the relationship we're all looking for. You pay money, the good chemical goes off in your brain. That's the relationship. John gets the good chemical from the wine. Yeah, but like some of that can be dissonance reducing behavior, right? Like if it doesn't live up to your expectations, you're like, I spent a hundred bucks on this,

whether it's a steak or a bottle of wine, like I better like it. So you find ways to try to release those good chemicals in, in your brain to reduce that dissonance. Yeah. Do you think that's just like, uh, screw up your like long-term relationship with wine in your palate? Do you see yourself being disillusioned at all? Oh, I mean, added to the list of long-term relationships I've, I've screwed up.

I don't know. You know, we, we actually just before recording this, we, we were talking about, you know, tattoos, right? And I said, you know, what if I got a wine tattoo? And then three years from now, like, I didn't have the same level of care or involvement with wine. And that's why I don't have any tattoos. But I don't know. I don't know what the heck's going to happen in three years. Yeah, that's fair.

Me either. People, they often ask me about my spork tattoo, and I used to have a whole story and a spiel, and someone asked me. Was it genuine? Yeah, it was. It was about, you know, having both sides. Again, I've just forgotten. It's something about yin and yang, but then I realized that I shouldn't be

saying that as a white guy. Oh, I see. It's like a universal tool. I think it's about a fork and a spoon. Yeah. Well, yeah, but you know, you need to have both the fork and the spoon. It's important to have both the high and the low. I was working at a place at this time and then it meant so much and I just forgot. I just like forgot what I used to say and so now people ask me and I'm

just like give it to you with the Taco Bell potatoes and this is pork. And I know why I actually got it. It's because you know I wanted to make myself seem deliberately interesting to try and scam people into giving me cool jobs like hosting a podcast like we literally we this is the best investment best scam investment ever because people thought it was so interesting to his tattoo right now guys people thought the spork tattoo was so interesting that we launched an entire

spinoff brand from a legacy media brand with the spork as the logo this is a scam we're all scammers in our own way. Life is a scam because you're just fooling people to believe in you. What's not a scam? Name one thing. Ricearoni. Shirts? That's just a good product.

Shirts are a huge scam. I bought a shirt that was 94%... Glasses! Glasses! Glasses are actually a really huge scam. No, I know, I know. Lux Otico owns everything. Glasses are... Yeah, there's like one glasses company.

Okay, wait. Contacts. We need to talk about my thought of the hipster orange wine person. Why is that the archetype for a wine snob nowadays? I think it's confirmation bias, partly from like the world you operate in. What's orange wine? I know this one. Can I say it?

Please. Okay, so it's white wine, and then you put the skins in it and then it hangs out with the skins and then you take it out and then it's like funky. Can we get a judgment from John? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I take issue with the funky thing. Really? Because every single orange wine I've had has

like a designated funk. It can. I mean, so basically it's a white wine made like a red. So all the inside of nearly every grape is white flesh and white juice. Red wine gets its color from sitting on the skin. If you do that with white, depending on how ripe the grape is made the same way as funky, but sometimes people try to, you know, fit it into, you know, the natural or natty wine category. And I think that's what I'm doing. I'm thinking I'm equating orange wine with natural. I have a question. What's natural wine? I mean, honestly, because I couldn't tell you a definition. It's, it's tough and nobody can. Um, yeah. Oh, great. It's definitely not a scam. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's, that's that's every clickbait article in wine right now is what is natural wine.

I think a lot of people agree on it has to be at least organic or maybe biodynamic farming. Biodynamic is kind of witchcraft, but I think it works. What is biodynamic? You put goats near the grapes, so the goats poop into the grape soil. You bury a horn filled with poop, and then the grapes go to Montessori school. You bury a horn filled with poop, and then the grapes go to Montessori school. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're all based off Rudolf Steiner's teachings. Anyway, it follows a lunar calendar.

Okay. Wait, does it actually? Yeah, it does. It does. Wow. Yeah, and your wine can taste different on flower days versus fruit days versus root days. I don't know. Anyway, it's witchcraft, but it kind of makes some good wine because people pay attention to their vineyards. But natural wine, it starts there.

You're supposed to be pretty hands-off. It's, man, I don't know. It's too much. Natty wine, right? This is like the Natty Light, the Natty Light variety of wine. Exactly. No. No.

So Natty wine is kind of maybe more a style, right, where natural wine is kind of like the big umbrella, right? There's winemakers that work in a natural fashion that would never want to be called natty or natural. But then there's also people kind of like shoehorning stuff in that's not biodynamic or organic or sulfur-free or anything. And just making it in a natty style because people like to drink it, right? It's maybe a little intentionally oxidative or unfiltered or unracked. Sedimenty. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, wine clarifies itself.

You just let it sit and the sediment will fall to the bottom and you rack it off the top. So, you know, I mean, it's an intentional thing to leave it like that. And it ages differently in the bottle when it's in contact with its solids and its sediment. So, you know, it's kind of whatever you like. But why is that the archetype of hipster right now? I don't know. Molly Boz. She's drinking orange wines out there. She's a tastemaker and I want to go drink them. Every hipster I've ever hung out with. Do you guys have natural orange wine? Every single time, I'm just like, I just will drink whatever's in front of me. Made with real oranges. I'll just drink whatever's

in front of me like I've never been like picky with my wine choices except when people ask me my favorite white wine I never say like like uh Riesling or anything I say Chenin Blanc I've only had Chenin Blanc like six times in my life okay so that's gonna lie that I think this is a perfect place to wrap up one I think what we've all kind of decided is wine is a scam insofar as like most things are scams that you pay money for. Fine dining, the fine art world, jewelry is another one, right? If it ultimately brings you joy and you're not doing anything inherently destructive, then like, you know, so be it. You do you. There are certainly some like, you know, problematic elements to it.

There was that one natural wine brand that was like using slave labor. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. Not naming and shaming, but they're from Southern Italy and I think their dad or their uncle kind of, yep. Yep. I don't buy those anymore, but they're still on sale. So anyways, but that said, what is some actual practical advice? And Nicole, I'm curious to keep hearing about like what your advice is to like ordering wine or buying wine so people think you're cool and you get

something you enjoy like what do you do um so i read this book called wine folly for like all of like seven minutes and i just skimmed it and then i was like hmm i like passion fruit so i'm gonna get a wine that uh has passion fruit in it or like i don't like tart cherry so i'm gonna try to steer like away from tart cherry wine so i just kind of just do a little bit of research. I just enjoy the research aspect of it a little bit. So before I go anywhere, I just kind of go with the flow. And then I ask the server, like, hey, does this taste like this? Hey, does this taste similar to this?

And I don't know if that works. But don't be afraid to ask questions. Please ask questions. Don't be afraid to seem stupid. But chances are the waiters might not know that much either. I'm not going to lie. They probably don't know either. So I don't know, just go into it with a positive attitude and just enjoy your glass of wine regardless of what it is.

I don't know. My advice is to have Daddy Warbuck's older brother who will feed you enough wine and you just kind of inception enough wine names in your head that you go like, you got a Cab Franc, you know, to drink. But that said, my other advice, lie. Be confident. Just fake it till you make it. If you want to seem confident in something, look at something, be like, oh my God, this Pinot right here, I read an article about it on Wine Spectator. This is the best Pinot that's ever lived.

I'm going to drink that. And then even if it tastes like crap, you just go, er, and grit your teeth and go, wow, this is incredible, and I'm very smart. So that's my advice is lie. Okay. And having been on the other side of the table for three illustrious weeks, I guess I worked behind a counter selling wine to folks for a year or two. selling wine to folks for a year or two. But, you know, I got really good advice from a friend and mentor, Brad Hickey, down in McLaren Vale, who was a Michelin star,

maybe two Michelin star in New York, saw him before he, you know, just pissed off to Australia. But he said, you know, people have these little devices in their pockets today where they can find any piece of information, you know, known to man. If you don't know, say you don't know, right? So, you know, give it a quick Google. You know, I guess my advice for people in wine is try not to feel pressured to know everything.

You know, there really is that Dunning-Kruger effect in wine where you start to know a little bit and you think you know it all. And then, you know, you open a book, you Google something, and you realize you don't know anything. And there's too much to know, right? So just, you know, you don't have to fake it. If you want to fake it, fake it. But, like, you know, ask some questions. Try not to be pressured by price. If you're after, you know, a forty dollar bottle of wine in a restaurant, don't be pressured into an eighty dollar one. You know, get a little drunk. It'll be OK. Or just carry a bunch of natural light peach

hard seltzers in your purse, because those are finer than any wine. All right, Nicole and John, we've heard what you and I have to say. Now it's time to find out what other wacky ideas are rattling out there in the Twitterverse. It's time for a segment we call Opinions Are Like Casserole! John! I feel like you nailed that. What the frick? John didn't join. I thought you were a fan.

One more time, one more time. It's time for a segment we call Opinions are like casseroles. There it is. There it is. We're dialed in. I did a reference and someone's like, was that a Howard Dean reference?

And I'm like, he ran a deceptively good campaign. You say that every time. He ran a good campaign. You know nothing about that. Howard Dean reference? He ran a deceptively good campaign. You say that every time. He ran a good campaign. You know nothing about that. Howard Dean would have won. All right, first up. Are politics a scam? Oh, Jesus Christ.

All right, add Sweetie Peas. Truffle is actually kind of icky. I think it should stay away. John, what say you? I don't know. Try it with Barolo? You son of a biscuit. I literally, I was reading something yesterday, not even for this podcast, that was talking

about how Pete Wells actually of the New York Times, I believe, said that wine pairings in generality are a scam. And then someone was like, yeah, except for truffle and Barolo. And I was like, oh, of course, except for truffle and Barolo. I've never had them together. What are you guys talking about? I was at a fancy restaurant. I was at Bestia with a celebrity chef who was an actual celebrity.

Ivan Orkin of Orkin Ramen. And with Andy Wong from Food and Wine. I know those names, both of them. Yes, yes, yes. And I had not started doing any of this. I was a very young food writer, like 24 years old. And the chef knew who both of them were, so he started just sending out dishes

and wines. And the song comes over and goes like, this is a very special 95 Barolo that we have been saving for someone extra special and I would love you to have it. But both Ivan and Andy, they were on a whole eating tour of LA throughout the day and they didn't want to drink any of it. And so they were like, you, young

260 pound man with a barrel of a stomach drink this whole bottle of 20 year old wine wow and I did and I loved it it was good

I don't remember what it tastes like you always say you like Barolo actually yeah because I just lie I don't know Barolo is a scam Barolo is tannic

it's bitter they're not tastes that humans naturally like right we like sweet and immediately gratifying. Anyway, truffles are a scam. Truffles are kind of

farty. They don't taste like anything without salt. Yeah, I don't know. She's probably right. I like fake truffle. I like, give me the fake truffle slathered on a burger made with 70-30 meat. Yeah, I don't really care for truffle. I think it's whack. I mean, in small increments sometimes. Well, you're talking about how humans naturally gravitate towards, you know, like sweet, acidic,

whatever. Like, that's just evolutionarily what we're inclined to do. Wine is just rotten. It's just rotten. Yeah, it's fermented. It's like grape juice, you know, gives you nutrition and whatnot, and then you let it just rot and it poisons your body, but makes you a little happy. Yeah, but it's good.

The whole thing is anti-evolutionary. Okay. That said, every culture has been fermenting stuff to get you drunk. Every culture figured that out. Yeah. Or most. I'm sure there's a handful of the ones that didn't. But all across the world, we figured out that you let food rot and it makes your brain feel all funny and you start dancing better.

Or at least you start dancing and not caring as much. It takes the prefrontal cortex offline. Is that really what it is? I love that. Yeah. Listen to another podcast that said that. So it's got to be true because podcasts aren't scams. Nope.

XDeadCraftX says, if you serve mashed potatoes with skin on, I will leave and key your dad's car. Our dad's been dead for years. So good luck. Got him. High five, Dead Dad Club. It was 10 years the other day. Oh, was it really? Yeah, July 3rd, 2011.

I'm sorry. Tell us about mashed potatoes. Leave out the dad though. I think there was a Simpsons episode where Marge was scared she was getting replaced and the imposter cooked Homer red skin mashed potatoes with the skin on and Marge was like, oh, let me take them out. And he was like, no. And he hoards them.

What was the question? I don't watch Simpsons. I don't. Do you mess with skin on mashed potatoes with the skin on and Marge was like, oh, let me take them out. And he was like, no. And he hoards them. What was the question? I don't watch The Simpsons. I don't. Do you mess with skin on mashed potatoes? I can't remember the last time I made mashed potatoes. Me neither. They're the worst preparation of potato. I do not enjoy them. Are you kidding me? I have never made mashed potatoes. Okay, this is a real thing. What, the fruit? I just got back from 10 days

out of town. I bought potatoes to make mashed potatoes and I prepped them, right? I peeled them. I had them sitting in ice water. Wow. And then I never made them, and I came back, and they were just rotting, soaked potatoes. Because I didn't want them. I love mashed potatoes.

I love a nice potato puree without skin, but sometimes I like a good rustic mashed potato with the skin on it. That Rachel Ray rustic? Yeah. The Rachel Ray rustic thing? Because she's trying to save prep time to get in under 30 minutes? I see, Rachel. I think it's delicious delicious I actually don't mind

skin on I actually like skin on fries too but that's just me nah get the skin off skin contact mashed potatoes thank you

yes exactly the orange potatoes are they funky alright we got anonymous clown face sausage diced tomatoes with chilies

cream cheese shredded cheese pasta and spinach you just paraphrased a Buzzfeed tasty video that you watched. This is just the grocery list. This is just them.

I mean, that sounds great. John, I don't know if you got all that. It's not that Denver-style hot dog, basically. Yeah, with the cream cheese. Seattle dog. Yeah, Seattle dog. Seattle dog, yeah. This is Seattle dog pasta.

And I'm into it. What's the question? That was it. That was no question. It was just an opinion. That happens a lot where they just list ingredients. Yeah, I know. I make a lot of trash pasta out of the fridge just depending on whatever's there.

That sounds like a good trash pasta. Was there any cheese? Cream cheese. Oh, yeah. Shredded cheese. And then shredded cheese of indetermined origin. Yeah, sure. Sounds nice.

Maybe add some lemon zest. Green chilies. That sounds nice. Yeah. Yeah. I'd brawl it. I'd brawl it. I'd brawl it. I'd brawl it with the shredded cheese on top to get some of that crusty brawlage.

I'd try to emulsify some sort of oil with some starchy water and then work the cream cheese into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kind of stretch out the cream. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's smart. That's smart.

I feel like I'm intruding. Are you still here? I guess. Om underscore dab says, soak two figs and three dates overnight. Reduce the soaking water in morning to a syrup and coat cereal. That's like halfway to an Indian bell puri. I've never had bell puri.

Oh, you mean Rice Krispies treat? Yeah, it's like savory Rice Krispies with chutney. What? Oh, it's so good. It literally looks like corn. Can you order it? What? Yeah, we can get it.

The Samosa House Belpoo. If it's anywhere, it's at Samosa House. What's up? All right, we got at Matthew31415. That's pie, Josh. What? 3.1415. Oh!

Oh! It's a food joke. God dang it. Their name's probably pie. Stupid idiot, Josh. What? Tuna salad. T's a food joke. God dang it. Their name's probably Pie. Stupid idiot, Josh. What? Tuna salad. Tuna salad and syrup.

Pancake or maple. You can use, John, you can use either pancake or maple syrup on your tuna. It's delicious. Whatever. Syrup's a scam. Syrup is a scam. Wait, they just said pancake or, but see, in my mind, pancake syrup and maple syrup are literally the same thing.

They're legal distinctions. That's why it's a scam. They're legal distinctions because you cannot call it maple syrup unless it has a certain percentage of actual. So maple syrup, right? You literally just stab a tree in the heart, then it leaks out its juices, and then you boil down those juices to create maple syrup, and that's pure maple syrup. However, all the like, you know, Log Cabin, Mrs. Butterworth, stuff like that, that is pancake syrup that can't legally use the term maple.

Log Cabin isn't maple syrup? They may have a premium brand that does it, but no, it's artificial maple extract with just corn syrup. Do you remember we made that for an episode? Yeah, we did. It was like the Taco Bell waffle taco, and I prefer pancake syrup to maple. I like maple. Give me the fake stuff. On tuna, hard pass.

Yeah. What? Why? I don't know. I'm trying to think. We grew up eating, do you remember salmon bristles? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What are salmon bristles? They're salmon croquettes that you would take. Are they South African foods? They're Commonwealth sort of things. I remember moving to Australia and we had sort of like an end of term uh like barbecue sort of thing and somebody brought out these just like they weren't salmon maybe they were chicken bristles uh but they were called bristles and i was like oh my god dad wasn't just you know rambling and making stuff up it was it was our commonwealth born mother um but no they they had them and they just put them on on a base like you

know flat top plancha sort of thing and cooked them up. But we used to have canned salmon, right? Like they make canned tuna, whatever, mixed with egg and breadcrumbs and breadcrumbs on the outside. And then just kind of shallow fried. And it's like a crab cake, but salmon. It's a delight. And then sometimes there's some bones still in the canned salmon. They get a little crunchies.

Yeah. That's pretty good. You put maple syrup on it? No, but we would dip it in fancy sauce, in special sauce, which is an equal parts ketchup and mayonnaise. So I'm thinking like the sweet the fish. This could work. Not really. This could work. These days, what, you just put, you know, some sriracha and pancake syrup in it and call it gourmet. Yeah. I'd pay 16 bucks for that. I can't. You get three of them for a table of four people and you're, ah, just tell me. What if it was koopie mayo? No, there's

no justification for putting maple syrup or pancake syrup on tuna salad. I'm sorry. Okay. B-Leek says meatloaf should be cooked with ketchup on top. I never had meatloaf growing up, so sure. Yeah, sure. There's plenty of sugar in it. It gets all glazy and delicious, you know.

That's like saying cheesesteak should have cheese on them. I've only had meatloaf once. The point of meatloaf is the ketchup. The little leathery ketchup glaze on the outside, that's the point of meatloaf. It's like saying a sandwich should have bread. It's like saying orange wine should have a determined funk. It's a giant

koo-bee-day for white people. No, I figured. Does that translate? Yes. Does that make sense? Is meatloaf koo-bee-day? Is koo-bee-day cake? Is wine soup? Is wine tea? Find out next time on a hot dog is a sandwich. Oh, I have a headache. That hurt me.

John, where can the people find you? What do you got going on? You got any like home reno plans you want to talk about? No. You got a bathroom? We finished those up last year. Yeah. I have a cute dog in there that's enjoying the renovations.

I have an Instagram page that nobody really cares about. It's kind of things I cook and drink. I'm at Couch Wine. That's at Couch Wine. Couch Wine. I do have a day job I probably need to get back to. I was only given the time off

because my manager made me promise to plug Central Pennsylvania wine regions as up and coming. Nice, okay. So they might be. Cool. We're about to spike the wine industry in Harrisburg and Lancaster County.

Yeah, Amish people are there. Give wine to the Amish. That's John's official plug. No, thank you guys so much for having me. You know, I listen to this every week, and it's exciting and terrifying to be on here. I hope this never airs. And on that note, thank you for listening to A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. If you want to hear more from us here in the Mythical Kitchen, we've got new episodes for you every Wednesday.

Hot Dog is a sandwich. If you want to hear more from us here in the Mythical Kitchen, we got new episodes for you every Wednesday. If you want to be featured on Opinions or Like Casseroles, you can hit us up on Twitter at MythicalChef or nhandizada with the hashtag OpinionCasserole. For more Mythical Kitchen, check us out on YouTube where we launch new videos every week. And of course, if you want to share pictures of your dishes,

hit us up at Instagram at Mythical Kitchen. We'll see you next time and hit up at Couch Wine. Which I think you and John talk on Instagram more than I do. Sometimes. It's nice