A Lot On Your Plate - Ep 5: Meet our first guest, what social anxiety really means and a proposal disaster

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

We are back and we have our first guest! This week on A Lot On Your Plate we are joined by CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) specialist Ashlie McVey where we talk about all things social anxiety, depression warning signs and how to get support.- - - - - - - - - -Show LinksRest+Wild Cabins ACT Counselling ServicesOnly Human Youtube Channel- - - - - - - - - -Follow us on IG @alotonyourplatepodYour HostsJess (@JustJessFood)Zoe (@ZoeQuinnnn)Produced ByCobalt Creative (@cobaltcreativeuk) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the chart topic show topic the best podcast in the world. We're just kidding, just kidding. Hi everyone and welcome back to A Lot on Your Plate podcast with me, Jess and my lovely sidekick Zoe. Hello everybody. Hello. How are you today? back. I'm good. This weather is really a treat. It is a treat. It's scorching. It's like 29 degrees. What did you do this weekend? I went through to Edinburgh Finch on Friday. I saw that actually on your Instagram. And it was roasting and then we went to see train spotting.

Oh is it good? Have you not seen it before? No. Oh my. I've obviously seen the film. No, it's like nothing I've ever experienced before. Why? You know the toilet scene in the film? Yes. And they like shits themselves to bed. well that happens obviously it's not like real poo but that happens and it's like he gets up he's completely naked like I see his little man and everything and little and um he's just walking about and he's got all this brown stuff off so then he's using a towel to like try and wipe it off obviously it's just part of the play but then he walks by the audience and he's like swinging the towel and it's like whacking off his faces and their clothes and honestly people had white on and they'd brown stuff all over them no me and Jason both

had white on. I was like that's my denim jacket, like right over the front of me. Imagine that hit you and then you had to go about your day. I don't want to be covering shit. Anyway, I did that on Friday and then had some lovely drinks after it and then Saturday I went to my dad's for a barbecue all day. Love it. And it was just everyone, everyone had sweat patches head to toe, but we just embraced it. It's a bit of karaoke at night. Yeah, I saw that. Love it. It's actually so hot, isn't it? I was just down in, um, where was I? I went to Shropshire from Wednesday day to finding. Did you see the cabin I stayed in? Yeah, it looked amazing. I will actually tag that on the description in the podcast so everyone can see, but it was called Rest and Wild

down in Shropshire and it was no word of a lie, one of the best experiences I've done in a long time. It was a bath. Yeah, gorgeous. I love the outdoor bath thing. So basically in the middle of nowhere, gorgeous, just very well designed cabin and me and my friend Rebecca went down and we had a lovely time and then we went to Lester. I introduced some of my friends and family. Got a bit of a husky voice because I am slightly hung over today. have had to drive back up to do this podcast and I feel a little bit worse for wear but I feel fantastic now. I've had a few starbursts

and I'm great. I know I bang on about this is quite a lot right but I'm going to continue to do it why is now Rebecca my all your family and friends and I've not? Well that's your problem not mine no it's not she's not invited to me anyway so today we finally have our first guest

and we are so so excited to have her here. Her name is Ashley McFay and she is 41 Anna Virgo Pisces. Pisces? Did you say that? Sorry, she is 41 and a Pisces.

You're Virgo. Yeah, you're Virgo. Paises. And yeah, she's here today. She is from Glasgow and I'm going to introduce you and pass you over to her. Hi, Ashley. How are you? I'm fine, thanks.

Thanks for having me on. We are so excited to have you here. Could you tell everybody on the podcast a little bit about yourself and why we have invited you on the podcast today? So I'm a BACP accredited psychotherapist and specialise in CBT. So what I do is I have a training facility in Ruthergland where we teach other people to be therapists in the world of CBT

because there's different types of therapies out there. My modality is CBT. I also treat patients and supervise clinically other therapists as well. So they bring their caseloads to me and we have clinical discussions and things like that about how to best treat people. Perfect. Could you tell her a little bit more what actually CBT stands for, please?

I actually didn't know anything about it until you. message, so. Ah, right, okay. So CBT stands for cognitive behavioural therapy. And what you'll find is it's kind of well known for treating loads of anxiety and depression. In fact, most anxiety and depressive disorders across the kind of clinical field are treated with CBT. We call them Axis 1 disorders because they're kind of low level. So what you'll find is you'll hear a lot of people talking about I've got depression and anxiety, but anxiety is actually categorised into very different things. So like OCD, social anxiety, health anxiety, trauma, generalized anxiety disorder, there's loads in panic, phobia, all that, and they all get treated slightly differently, and then they get

treated differently from depression. So, CBT is actually what you do to help, that's not what they suffer from. Yeah. Right. I think that's what confused me. Me too. I thought it was opposite. Right, interesting.

So it's quite common only because what happens is there's been loads and loads of research put into CBT. So it's not that other modalities don't work. It's just that CBT is known for having maybe quicker outcomes. So you'll only get maybe so many sessions, whereas if you go to a different therapist, it'll maybe do a person centre, for example, you might be with them for a bit longer. Yeah. But the treatments are still effective. It's just CBT's had loads and loads of research. Really? It's effectiveness, yeah. Would you tell us a little bit about you on a personal level? So how did you get into your business? Tell me about you. Sure. I started off in social work for children and families for Glasgow

a way back and I'm going to say my age here I'll put that at the start I think it was about 2000 or something like I started as an admin worker and then I moved into field work but I'm not qualified social worker and then I moved and did

a bit of voluntary work with young people in the community who came for adverse backgrounds and things like that I moved from that and take more field work roles and I've worked in families for children which is forced on adoption but more predominantly it's all been offending So young people offending, they've been in working secure units for a couple of years

and just high-risk offenders in the community and things like that. Domestic violence, drug and alcohol issues. So my background's been going to die, a mixed bag. Was that quite tough to deal with? I was younger at the time. I didn't have kids. I think it might have been different if I had the kids, you know, but no, it was hard going. It's hard going to get into people's houses that don't...

Difficult situations. Absolutely. Probably the hardest physical job was a secure unit because there was a lot of violence in that. It was boys, it was men. Laterally, I ended up in counselling just by default. I met my husband on that. My first counselling skills course. I, yeah, way back in 2003.

We didn't get together then. He hunted me down. He was like, of course. And then my counselling career started and here I am. It's just sort of happened. Sorry, what's the name of your... It's Act counselling and CBT services. fabulous and how many people work for you we have actually quite a lot I said probably

about 30 odds in total wow yeah but they're kind of self-employed so we we contact them in so we've got kind of trainers tutors clinical staff yeah so we just thought it was really important to have you on the podcast today because obviously a lot of our listeners um are similar sort of age range to me and Zoe and I think it's been quite apparent since COVID especially and post-COVID there's a lot of people have struggled from anxiety and depression social anxiety getting back out there. And we just thought it's really important to maybe speak to you about a few things, ask you some questions. We also have, some of our followers have messaging some things that they want to ask you as well. So yeah, we'll just start off with a few things. So what are,

would you say would be the warning signs for CBT or anxiety and depression that you think somebody would, they're probably thinking they may have it, they're not quite sure, but what would you say are the warning signs? Well, they're both slightly different. So what you'll find is people with depression will have a little bit of anxiety because they've got depression. But it depends how depressed they are so you'll have folk that are kind of functioning with depression so they'll manage their job but they're not getting any pleasure from it and what you'll find is they're kind of depression split into two main things about mastery and pleasure so your mastery is about going to work and enjoying it like you know and getting something out that you're achieving and you're doing something and pleasure

is all your things that you do in your life that you just do for fun and there's no goal attached to it and what you find is folk will withdraw from pleasure it's the first thing it goes so avoidance so that's one of the symptoms these we're talking about what then happens is they're attending and they're not getting anything from that either so their day becomes pretty mundane so they're going to work and then

no getting anything from it withdrawing when they got home being alone is very difficult it's been very difficult for people over the pandemic but generally speaking prior to pandemic there was about 6 million people accessing psychological services in the UK before COVID

so there was a pandemic before there was a pandemic mental health anyway so you'll have kind of functioning people and then you'll have other people who just struggle to get up out of bed yeah so their treatment their symptoms are very different because you wouldn't actually see that but for folks that and then you get your anxiety

based for folk that maybe have a lot of stomach problems and things like that as well like and avoidance is key with anxiety so what happens is most people just withdraw and avoid that's that so you'll see them kind of your friends maybe being struggling to come out no one to go and they would normally come out and things like that, nah, it will no do it. I think that's quite known now compared to the past,

like if someone goes quite quiet and they're not, like, wanting to socialise and stuff, as much people are more aware to kind of keep checking in on them and try and encourage them to come out and go and seeing them and things like that before. Whereas I think especially I was younger, and it's not that maybe my friends wear suffering from anything, but you're like, oh, they've just turned boring. But actually, people are more aware of it now and what that can mean. Yeah, I think that's quite an important question as well, because the next thing I wanted to ask you was how would you suggest that people that aren't really aware of how to deal with anxiety depression. They think their friend may have it, but they'd just not really

being sympathetic with them. How would you suggest that somebody that may think their friend has it would approach a situation or deal with it? This is a tough one, but I think the best thing to do is just to ask them. Yeah. Because it's one thing I learned when I was younger in the field of social work. It was like when we were working with young people and you were always trying to figure them out, this wise old woman said to me, just ask them. And if you ask somebody, they'll, they actually will tell you. It's just that people, what happens is folk get worried when somebody tells them how they feel, they don't, they don't know what to do, they worry about doing the right thing. So the folk don't ask the question. Yeah. So actually just saying, listen, I've noticed that

you're being a bit quiet lately. Are you all right? Yeah. How many people have actually said that to you? Yeah, that's true actually. Probably? Probably. Very little. Yeah. So sometimes it's just asking the question. Yeah. But there's loads of services out there that don't get, I'm saying there's loads of services, they're absolutely saturated. So there's some free services and obviously there's paying services and I work in the private sector. Yeah. But there has services locally loads in Lanckshire and things like that as well that will see folk for small, moderate. It's called kind of CBT works for low to moderate disorder. So folk will be a bit of social anxiety or OCD or something like that.

Yeah. Interesting. Does that answer your question? It definitely does answer the question. Sometimes just asking, but you're, you're, you're interested. indicators are always avoiding some withdrawal. Yeah. Or with social anxiety, if they're absolutely smashed. And if they're absolutely smashed or drinking way much before they head out and a night out, that's another telltale sign. And we can talk a wee bit about how that actually gets in the road.

Yeah. Because they want to feel brave enough to actually deal with people when they get out. Interesting. What would you say? Do you have any statistics at all on anything post-COVID, pre-COVID, how that may have affected a certain age group or gender? Yeah, so only statistics just now, because there's no much research being done yet, there's, it was 12% so what happens is, so 12% of the population,

but this was based in America, have diagnosed social anxiety. And I think what's important probably for me to mention is social anxiety gets tied up a lot with low self-esteem. Yeah, right? The two of them are intertwined, right? So you'll think it's quite common, but it's actually only 12% of the population, which is a lot, it is a lot, there's no good enough of that. what you'll find is most people are suffering for low self-esteem

than they are with social anxiety. Social anxiety is kind of performance related to where they're going to get scrutinised and low self-esteem is more about that kind of internal critic going on and people making assumptions. So stats-wise, it's the third most diagnosed disorder after depression and drug and alcohol abuse. And then it's social anxiety.

Gender-wise, it tends to be double females, so more females and males but there's a whole chat about is that because they don't speak up about it especially the west of Scotland you know you're a man you don't talk about your feelings here especially in Scotland you know you just don't debt

you know we want our barley men you know men don't have mental health problems so there is a bit of chat about why that number's higher and there is services out there for men as well so gender wise there's no a lot of studies done on you know symptoms

symptoms are very similar to male and female in terms of how they perceive themselves but they'll maybe go about it how they act slightly differently to cope with it yeah and do you think have you seen a big increase on people wanting help since COVID yeah but not for social anxiety

and the reason for that's because they didn't need to go out yeah so the numbers plummeted so what you'd find is actually OCD went on the increase I don't have the start That's for you. That's just environmental. So basically just through my work, through the stories and the clinical work that I do. But OCD get higher. Health anxiety went higher. So, because, you know, it's all about germs. Yeah, that makes sense. Viruses. So what would you say? Could you describe to me a bit more about OCD? Obviously, as far as I'm aware of it, I see it more as somebody that's tidy and a neat freak. But is there other signs to OCD that don't just mean being tidy? I. OCD would be like numbers

so you put up, you know, the dial and the volume and things? And they'll have to make it round number or something. Round numbers. So things like that, checking, checking in their head, checking straighteners, irons, cookers. I've locked the door and you go back about ten times. Oh, no. All the checking behaviours is kind of signs of OCD and Puro

being really internalised about your thinking and intrusive thoughts are come. rule of hand in hand so intrusive thoughts being, I mean I say it all the time and I say this to my students like you know that way you're driving another way old lady across the road and I'm like I just go take them right out the game or should I just slot in here so someday we OCD would have thoughts like that right and they hold like a hot cup of tea and they just think I just want to throw this over that I'm pushing front of the train there's so many people like that aye aye aye aye but nobody does it right But the problem is, the problem with people with OCD

is that they believe that they would or they have an interpretation. What does that mean about me for having those bad thoughts? Whether it's you and I or whoever does the OCD just goes, I never knocked the wheeled women on and off. I go and do my food shop. Totally forget they ever thought that. That's the only difference is that people get caught in the thinking

and then there's like a belief system in place if I don't, you know, check the end all this process, check the house 15 times, then something terrible is going to happen. yeah but that's a slightly different treatment and a different symptom so you see how anxiety pops out differently for different disorders so they're no all the same it's wild how you can just have like small things from it as well because I like the joke that I have it kind of thing so I'm so neat and tidy and I do all that number stuff I don't really have the thoughts as much like I don't want to chuck a cup of tea over from that I'm not but I do have my

moments of like I can't have the volume not being at like an even or roundup number. It needs to be like a 30 or 25. Yeah, 27 that would say in the US. Oh my gosh. Kind of that. So how, you obviously working in the industry, how do you advise them to stay positive or what are the next steps for somebody that they need to do to try and get themselves out of this certain headspace or things that they should avoid any sort of books or apps you suggest that they get into? Anything like that really? There's loads of podcasts on if it's, you know, obviously we're talking about social anxiety specifically today but there's loads of podcasts um out there actually when i went into spotify they're all pretty decent to be honest i know i'm sounding vague

the reason for that is if you google like very well mind it's a great website if you typed in social anxiety very well mind would come up and they've got resources the centre for clinical excellence has resources and what i mean by that is people can download and read a bit about it and then there's wee tools and tasks and things like that that they can do the thing is we say btie you need to be fairly motivated to want to change and that's the difficulty so some folk struggle to ask for help and that's a kind of a belief system people think that they're different or they're the only one that has this when in actual fact loads of people have have all this sort of stuff going on so reaching out would be through either asking a friend to help them asking a family member or

googling you can get the wee documents and things like that and they can have it but working on their thinking is huge so yeah you know I suppose it'd be different for everyone as well like what works for them and what like because listen to a podcast will work for someone and then doing like an app that I know a lot of people do the apps that's to work your mind and it just kind of like keeps you yeah thinking busy but not about what's going on with you it's more like puzzles online or yeah it's like kind of like that wordle thing you know stuff like that but there's a lot of apps that do a load of the things and you have to do it like once a day every day and that's the kind of help like stimulate her mind but in a completely different way yeah yeah and you can I mean

people use boys of affirmations and things like that that are really helpful a bit of a minute gratitude journaling yeah yeah we'll take me out of me jess been talking about this journal non-stop for about two months now and she's still the same person that I've ever known so I'm not sure it's working I don't know I would always say I'm quite a positive person anyway but I do think that could be probably quite self-critical sometimes especially with image now and again I think a lot of people are like that social media has a big effects on things like that and fear of missing out that's a big thing for me yeah I've got and I definitely don't have OCD nothing like that but no that's not a concern absolutely not

but I do think probably trying to be more grateful for what I have rather than I'm always wanting more I'm always thinking even even if I do things like if I plan a day out I've noticed this about me in the recent years if I plan something and and which I'm which tends to be the case I love to plan holidays. When I'm at that certain place, I'm always thinking about the next. I don't really stay present in the moment and enjoy it, and I'm worried about everybody else around me thinking, oh, we need to then go to that.

I don't know if that's a sort of obsessive sort of thing, but I can't really, I really struggle to switch off and enjoy that moment and then just go to the next. So that's definitely something that I've noticed. The point of me journaling or writing what I'm grateful for was just to try and be more grateful for what I currently have rather than what I do want. Yeah.

I suppose it's affirmations, but... It sounds like, though, just listening to you with thinking down the counselling road is that you worry. Yeah, I do. And that's a different type of... That could be... I don't know going to ask you, but it could be what's called generalised anxiety disorder.

And what happens is with that, it's excessive worrying. And worrying about everything, so everything changes. So it might... Obviously, I'm no diagnosing you clearly, but what might happen is people's worry, so people worry a lot. and the worries will be on finances and then it'll be in relationships

and then they solve that problem then they're on something else and then they get demoralised and exhausted but the constant worry and some people struggle to sleep at night because of the worry so it's a separate anxiety presentation and what you're talking about

contentment will stem from your value base yeah interesting so that's where you need to look first yeah what do you value and then you can go from there I think I do struggle as well with getting being productive getting things done and I'm very much like I write everything on my notes.

But then, because Richard says this to me today when I was back on my health kick a few weeks ago, I'm one of those people where I'm like, right, I'm going to drink five litres of water a day, I'm going to work out three times a day, I'm going to do it all to the point where it's just far too much from my brain to even cope. And then I end up giving up because it's never progressive or slowly into something. It's like all or nothing.

Yeah. It's such an all or nothing sort of mentality that I've got, and it winds me up. But I do wish that that's why I thought if I'd try and be consistent with something every day, But then, again, this weekend, I've not done it, I've slipped off. And I understand that's normal, but then I punish myself for it. I think, oh, what, I've given up on that now. So I can't do it.

So I, because you're setting yourself up to fail every time you do it. So you're, so you're just stuck in that cycle. So you set yourself too many tasks, and you're going to, you know, hit the brick wall with that. Yeah, also just, you need to do, like, one goal at a time. Yeah. It's what I think people realise is, like, you're talking about the healthy stuff, like water, exercise. and what you eat and it's like if you just did one week of making sure you hit that like water goal every day yeah and then you're used to that so then by the next goal you're already got the first one in your routine

yeah and then you like slowly build it up and then it's more sustainable than consistency is yeah it's something that I struggle with that's the anxiety though that pushes that yeah they worry about getting it yeah getting what you want quickly and you're trying to be motivated and all that but you set yourself up while trying to do that yeah because you because ultimately you fail I don't mean that but ultimately yeah no you've all right off the wagging And then you fail, and then that reaffirms what you already think about yourself that you're not achieving or whatever. Yeah, and then you just stop and you don't want to try anymore. Yeah.

How do you deal with, obviously, in your job, you listen to a lot of people's problems, how do you personally and all of your counsellors deal with that themselves? Do you have to have your own counsellor as well to kind of not make sure it's all on your shoulders? Like, do you have, you sort of trained yourself to just be quite separate from it? How does that work? Aye, no, you don't have to have your own counsellor but it's ethical and that's what you kind of sign up for when you kind of become a professional you need to seek support

you know, it would be unethical for me basically of social anxiety and be sitting with you and telling you what you do and me and go and fix myself but you do have to have clinical supervision every month and how I keep myself healthy everyone does different things I will go on holiday I'm always got a holiday booked

and everybody doesn't know when I'm always away away in the sunshine so I love the sun and that sort of stuff day to day how I switch off is more just a condition behaviour because 20 year career and working and helping people

who are in really awful situations I've learned just to shut the door and that sounds harsh so when somebody like recently sticks in my mind that's when I know I need to worry about them you know if it's suicide and things like that I go right I need to worry about them

if I can just shut the door the way sometimes can't shut the door then they're on my mind then I'll know right actually that's my spider sense he's going, I need to make sure that they are alright, well I don't need to make sure what happens is I just am aware that they're there and they're in my mind and I'm checking in appropriately with them. I suppose that kind of helps you a bit then

because if you are used to that mindset and you're out overthinking about someone then it almost. Yeah, it almost pushes you to keep at them and keep checking in them. Yeah. Rather than not just thinking, oh I just need to shut that out like the rest of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is like an instinct. What would you say, obviously, you've probably got lots because I've been on your website and had a little look at some of the reviews

but do you have any sort of success stories or anything that any of our listeners could listen to and actually they feel like they are in such a dark rut at the moment and they have no way of getting out do you have anything that you've anonymously obviously who you've worked with recently or yeah I've got to change their life absolutely. I don't mean I've got loads of stories

Jess, I don't mean it like that. I mean there's been I think a fair social anxiety point of view then because obviously as I said the treatments are different but there was a guy actually was actually nearly 60 so it's interesting you know you think the demographic and you think right okay

is this young people but it's not it's everybody and you think 60 year olds have got their I mean they've got their shit together in there they're like you're proper adults but no we got loads of people coming through that are what I would say is slightly older and he he lost his job in COVID he was actually

he worked in a nursing home and he worked down south he's no local and he lost his job and as a result of that he he just withdrew, very typical, right, of social anxiety and to the point that he couldn't go to the shops for food but he had a wife so he did get fed but that is a problem so anyway he lost that

he stopped going fishing which he loved and the biggest problem he had was he had to go to the job centre which is an interview performance related so that's where that social anxiety thing comes in and it's no really about low self-esteem so struggle to go to the park with his grandkids so that he withdrew for that, with the fishing. That's a pleasure thing we've talked about. And then had this performance

every couple of weeks to go and sign on or whatever. So he came through the door and the biggest mistake that people make with social anxiety is like trying to get people to go and do, right, go to the shops, go to the park, you know, and do all these things. What you actually need to do is drop the safety behaviours when you're in the social situations. And what I mean by that is, so for example, for him, he would not make eye contact. Right. Now, that's a safety behaviour. So if I'm sitting here talking to you, doing my head down and all like that that's me you know I'm not able to make eye contact so there's kind of feelings of shame and then around social anxiety as well and that came out

through the sessions because he had lost his job so he felt quite shameful about that and struggled with that so that's what we worked on we kept it's keeping it simple so it's not like right I want you to go to the park with your kids to try that I want you to go to the shops I want you to go into this it's the smaller things it's the small things and also what's your wife doing she's brilliant she goes to the shop aye she's actually part of your problem because what she's doing is she's letting you stay at home while she's going to the shops and encouraging it

by things that she's being helpful with them. And she's picking up the stuff that you're struggling. Family and friends can be a huge barrier to people actually getting better although they do it for the right reasons. So I had to have a wee chat with him, to have a wee chat with her to say the plan would be moving forward

that he would maybe go to the shops and that's what we did. So we got him to go to the shop for one thing and sometimes it's just getting out to shop by and say I can, I'd just walk back out again. and then going back into the shop and maintaining an eye contact for two or three seconds, back out the shop again, back in the shop. And that's a repetitive so that you're testing out every time.

What do you think is going to happen if you look somebody in the eye? Usually it's a cognition about, you know, it'll be something about down and self. They'll think I'm stupid. I'm going to start, I'm not going to get my words out or something like that. And then what you do in CBT is you test that thinking out with the behaviour, cognitive behaviour. know and see how it goes so I would never set somebody up to fail so I would never go in and say they're going to a full shop yeah and then make eye contact going to NASDA like that with everybody quite the thing you know it's not going to work but you just need to do you know keep it

simple and no have them out all of the world so that's what it did we kept it simple kept the eye contact going anxiety reduced and then he was back out fishing he was terrified somebody was going to come and ask him about the fish which inevitably happens because my son's actually into fishing he's only eight and he loves fishing and he always goes up to all the wee guys and he's like have you caught anything mate what have you caught the day on that so I could imagine him and this guy like dying because somebody's actually asked them but again two times they've done that and their treatment he managed to get to the fishing so I was delighted that's a success and I think that's the important thing like people think that therapy's like

it's short term but they want a magic wand but what you need to remember is like say with social anxiety it starts when you're a child believe it or not right so say if i've got a 60 year old in front of me he's been thinking and behaving like that for 55 year yeah right 10 sessions of therapy and they're not going to cut the mustard but what it will do is it will get him on a path yeah so you don't come out the finish article in therapy he he was motivated and be with a plan so that works and we got him on a trajectory which was brilliant but you know he's got 55 years he's brainwired one way it's going to take a while yeah yeah sure But I suppose it's just people knowing what to start putting into practice to, like, get on the right path.

Absolutely. More than just thinking there's no way this can be fixed. Aye, and I was thinking about young people on that at the day. And I call young people people in their 20, so that probably include you Zoe and that. But what I found was, especially when I was teaching in COVID as well. So we all went on to Zoom and everybody was like, right, we're on Zoom. And then the cameras started going off. And I was like, nah, get the cameras on.

I'm no teaching a classroom, a blank. it's good no happening so they'd get the cameras on then the people would be reluctantly you know and what was transing and I talked about what's going on well I don't like have a look and young people will be able to

relate to that especially when we use filters and I don't know how to use a filter on my phone that's the truth I don't actually really know how to do much in fact I only realised that I could download movies onto my phone gone to Turkey about three weeks ago my husband done it for me right so filters and all that's

just know me. But when people are faced with they think they should look a certain way on the screen so they were putting their cameras off because they didn't want to look at themselves. Yeah. So there's that. No talking on the phone.

No texting all the time. No even doing voice notes. Like my cousin will just know they a voice note all the time. It's just easier. It's easier to communicate. And they'll no do it. So because we're no needn'ty because you can communicate WhatsApp, Instagram and all that now.

Can yeah. I think the camera thing was a huge thing because we worked from home during COVID to the majority at the time but because I work in marketing most of our job is everyone collaborating with each other so we always have the cameras on and then like members of my family

who were also working at home any call they went on they didn't put a camera on no one did and I couldn't get over I couldn't get over that I was like how were you sitting speaking to your whole team but nobody has their camera on you're just they're literally speaking to a black screen

yeah like I honestly couldn't go over that Like see if someone and my team didn't have a camera on would be like, you're all right, get a camera on. I guess that's also probably because in COVID you didn't really make an effort at all, you'd probably roll out of bed of a lot of people and just scrape your hair back up. I know, but then you noticed that everyone was doing the same.

Yeah. But I suppose, like, a lot of people's work is very just you go in, you do your job and you leave, whereas man, the street is very, like everyone becomes pals and it's quite lighthearted and like you joke around and you've all seen each other in more of a state than you ever would be sitting in your bed at home.

Yeah. So I suppose it is a bit different. but I still couldn't quite understand how you're having this full meeting with people but you can't see them. Yeah. Totally agree. I mean, I think it was a huge problem. So we've no seen a spike in social anxiety yet

but I think it's still to come because folk are still able to keep their cameras off where there is, you know, more organisations now saying to get back to the office get your camera on, this sort of stuff. So I think it will come. That's how social anxiety sort of decreased because people weren't forced to.

Yeah. But I think we'll start to see it peaking. a bit more because of that. Because I suppose, yeah, it kind of ended months ago now, but people are still getting away with maybe not going out so much still because it has only been, say, like, maybe four or five months of actual normality. So it's not going to be until it's been maybe like a year of that that people are going to need to start saying,

okay, I still can't get myself out the door or, like, whatever they still are struggling with, eventually they'll ask. So it probably would take quite a while for it to show. It will. Yeah. And then access and services isn't easy either, because everyone's got waiting lists. Yeah, that's what's going to say.

Obviously, you work in a private part of counselling. So if somebody is worrying about finances and they're thinking, I do want to get help, what sort of free places can they call access? Like how, what's... Well, there's a few places. So in South Lanetshire, there's Lam H. They have a counselling service, so that's free. There's also Liberty.

They're based in Blantyre. That's also free. Moyer Anderson Foundation, they're out in Coatbridge, but they work with more sexual abuse. what you'll find is that people have comorbidities. So if there have maybe been trauma or adverse childhood experiences in their life, some of these disorders will present themselves. So they can be treated there at Moira Anderson's Talk Now at Measco Bride.

They do a small fee and I think they also do free sessions. Crisis out in Erskine, that's just the ones off top of my head. Crisis out in Erskine, they do small fee and free. So there is services there but as you can imagine, So what about if they didn't want to actually physically leave their house and they wanted to just to call them or let's say they weren't based in Scotland, who could they call them? Them, because what's happened is as a result of COVID,

which is a good thing, is that they can offer Zoom sessions. So some counselling's being going on and telephone counselling's being going on, so they can get that. Yeah. So you can Zoom. I mean, there's obviously most people now have a smartphone to some description so they can go on and, or if no, then telephone counselling. Yeah.

Is it kind of, no last resort, but it's ideally what we see, especially with somebody with socialings, you want to be seeing them. You're trying to get them. You're trying to get them right. But I suppose it's good that it's an option because if people are really, really like in a bad place and can't get out the house and at least they can still access some sort of help without.

Yeah. I've focused at uni and things like that as well. The uni, so Glasgow University, they've got a really good counselling service and maybe don't even know that it's there, but it's there because I supervise the therapist there and I'm one of the clinical supervisors at Strathclyde. So there's, they've got a cracking service in place as well if, you know, if you know, really? Class school is the same, Glasgow uni.

That's so good because we spoke about before how people who started like uni and things that through COVID, it must be so difficult because it's just not the same experience that it's meant to be. And a lot of them probably are struggling to like find their feet with it or see people that move for uni and then they couldn't leave the halls or meet friends. They're probably now feeling really alone. And also it'll be the same for like first years going in during COVID because they were all online and so is your uni.

So you've not actually seen these people face to face. seen them on a screen. Maybe if you put the camera on. But, and face-to-face wise, then you've maybe no seen these folk, although you've been in a class with them for a year. Yeah. It's a bit weird. It's a bit of weird. It's a bit of a barrier, like, the reality. Very strange. So, we have obviously asked some questions on our Instagram, so I'm going to read some out to you know. There was quite a lot. We were a bit, we were a bit shocked, actually, but they're all very varied. So, okay, so we'll start with this one, because obviously specialise in CBT. So somebody has said here, will CBT work with trauma of losing a baby?

My baby was still born nearly three years ago and it still haunts me. I have daily nightmares and flashbacks, which is obviously extremely awful. Yes. What I would say is that CBT, I think, my opinion works well where kind of one-off traumas. And I don't know if that person had other traumas or no, but let's say they didn't. It could work. Yes, absolutely. There is a treatment plan that could work for that person but also EMDR might be good for that trauma as well it's really pricey though that's the problem that one's quite expensive and quite hard to access so you'll maybe see it on in fact um prince harry had some uh i'm not even going to talk about that but anyway he had some you'll have seen him i don't know if he's ever seen when he's interviews last year and he

was getting EMDA and the person was moving a light front of them on a finger yeah so what happens is to do with processing of the brain during trauma so EMDR is helpful um and so is that to like keep you focus without kind of going like into your own thoughts about the trauma it's it's to process the trauma because aye I can't even get into it right but basically how the brain processes trauma what happens is trauma stays in a loop in your brain right okay and that's how it reoccur's it's the easiest way to describe it much more complex than that and um he's went for the MDR and you saw he kind of broadcast bit of the video and you saw the person doing the treatment with him live. So yes, ABT would work and also MDR.

There's a couple that talk about being like an anxious skin pick or like picking like round their fingers and like scraping away. And is that just down to like feeling overly anxious in situations or is there something specific that that means or what can they do to help that? It's just their overly anxious. So unless I would know about, I'd be a bit more about their story and why. So you'd be looking for what my. advice to that person would be is to look for triggers. So start keeping my diary. So when do

they pick their skin the most? When are the most anxious? And then what they will absolutely see is a pattern. And then went up to like payday or something. Yeah. So it could be a parent. It could be hormones or hormones. You will, if you keep a tracking, so diaries are amazing. People hate doing the diaries. So like clients that have worked with, they'll hate filling in diaries, but diaries give me so much information and you get to see patterns. So for anybody that's get any sort of thing going on, they want to be tracking that. Right, okay. You'll find a pattern for sure.

Yeah, that's really helpful. What is imposter syndrome versus natural self-doubt? I feel the two have become intertwined. Well, that's a loaded question. So imposter syndrome usually comes into perfectionism. Yeah. So folk who want to be perfect. But perfect is abstract.

It doesn't exist. You know, so again, people setting themselves up to fail. reach the having standards that are never going to be met and then has a huge demoralisation attached to that. What was the last part of that question? Versus natural self-doubt. I feel the two have become intertwined. That's it.

So high expectations, you know, because the pressure's so high, they put so much pressure on themselves and then the self-doubt comes in and it creeps away at the confidence. Yeah. So the more I try and the more I overcompensate, it's like, you know, being stuck on a horse

and not going to be able to go off at the hamster wheel, the more you set yourself up to fail the more confidence creeps in so people need to have a look at their goals and their perfectionism in terms of it is what I'm trying to achieve achievable A few are about like body confidence

but also like food guilt like having that obsession with watching what you're eating what you're spending on money what money you're spending on food sorry and how to get over that I think that's such a common thing of everything people put past their lips

they think should I have eating it I think it depends and again it's low self-esteem so what's the what is it that they're thinking about what's the matter with them you know whether they feel that they're too heavy

or actually are they a really nice weight but they're still trying to cut back and what's triggering that are they on social media a lot I mean I love social media for lots of great reasons but it's a massive impact on people's image and perception

about how, excuse me how they should look so again there's feelings a guilt around that but are the guilt feelings rational or irrational and that's what CBT would do so any time you have a kind of thought like that for example um should I have eaten that big curry the night aye absolutely except I loved it you know and I really enjoyed it but what I'll do is maybe tomorrow I'll eat a bit healthier yeah and that's that's a rational way I do like doing with should I've eaten four curries this week no yeah no so you see actually right okay

So everything, they just say like everything in moderation. Like give yourself a healthy balance and then you won't feel guilt over the bad things and then when you're having the good things you'll maybe feel like a bit of a pleasure that you manage to be healthy that day. Absolutely. See, that's a goal that you see. Even when you were talking there, you a wee face lit up. So you were just like...

Because that's me every week. I'm like, right, I'll do that tomorrow. Tomorrow I'm going to be good and then that does not happen. But yeah, so goals that be achievable. Do you know? Or you set yourself up. And that's that cycle of failure. Because I know that's a really strong word I'm used.

but ultimately that's what's going on. I'm failing. That's kind of common in the most of the circumstances as just setting yourself up for failure and trying to overachieve rather than taking it like step by step. Absolutely. Yeah. This is quite a good one.

Health anxiety, particularly thinking every new symptom is cancer and scared to go to the doctors. Any advice on how to combat this would be fab. Tried hypnotherapy. So first thing is the fact that they're no going to the doctor so their health avoider, which means that they need to go to the doctor, right? So by not doing the thing that they need to do,

it's keeping that loop going. So you get health-seating people with health anxiety, health avoiders, and so health-seating people are people on the phone to the doctor every five minutes. I've got a lump in my knee, I've got a tumour, I've got asthma, I've got lung cancer, I've got brain,

I've got this, I've got, you know, right? And the thing is they believe it, right? So there's a cracking video called Only Humans for the person with health anxiety. Tell them we Google it. on YouTube. It's a, it's a wee documentary that was on. It was about exposure because people with health anxiety at that time, I know I'm laughing about it, but I often laugh about this stuff, because I have to. People with health anxiety, believe, firmly believe in that moment

in time that they've got leukemia. Like, that's what they believe, right? And then they get so upset and distressed about it. But what happens is they need to go to the doctor, rule out the tests and then they have to look at their mental health because there's something else going on that's triggering that health anxiety. There'll be something else going on perhaps in that person's life. So their health avoiders, health seekers are on the phone every five minutes and spend their whole time just phoning the doctors and getting medicine. And most likely they won't have anything wrong with them. They tend not to have. Health anxiety is, the person might know what to hear this, but it's a wee bit tricky to treat, sorry,

because it's quite complex and therapists need to be in sure. sure that there's nothing to matter with them, which is why I'm saying the health avoiders, need to go to the doctor, make sure there is nothing the matter with them, get their bloods done, all that, and then deal with the mental health, and you can rule that out. Yeah. Yeah. Because you won't want me to give advice that you're fine and then exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like we've probably covered it just with like self-esteem, but there's a few that it's like wider just always think of the worst case in every situation and like I know loads of people like that and that just, is it just like worrying?

you're just worrying about what is the worst thing that could happen here around thinking about the good outcome of things I and it's also down to here we go go go back bash the parents I'm not going to bash the parents but it does come down to childhood so what happens is

every person when they grow up they have experiences good bad or indifferent right and they're stored so right up to the age of 8 they're stored as images and memories as children so for example if you're to speak to like a five year old they would They say, oh, I've had such an adverse experience there.

What should my parents have an argument or something like that? What they would do is they'd have a wee feeling, you know, and then they'd have an image, and that's just clopped in their brain. Yeah. But people, depending on what they've experienced in their life, will have their muscle in the brain that keeps all that information will be bigger. Right? So people, that part of the brain actually gets bigger

if they've had more kind of adverse experiences. So folk, we kind of general anxiety, and they head to that worst-case scenario, remember anxiety is fear-driven but it keeps us safe right so that's one thing people forget that anxiety is actually a good thing like we're we're trying to get rid of it but what folk need to days just endure it because it's it's adrenaline it keeps you safe you don't want to be walking through the park at night with the anxiety yeah right because something might happen to you so people need to remember we think about anxiety nowadays

and we think anxiety is the worst thing in the world anxiety keeps us safe yeah so when kids are younger and they they have these wee anxious things they then grow and develop into adolescence and all that sort of stuff they'll carry some of that anxiety with them so their natural disposition is worst case scenario but what the question needs to be for that person is how detrimental is that to the quality of their life they're always thinking with those wee blinkers on like that

worst case scenario then does that actually impact on the quality of their life or is it just something that happens yeah that's interesting I've got one here for relationships how to not attach yourself to men due to fear of abandonment? Oh, that's a whole podcast in itself. So that is a... That's a...

Different kettle of fish. It is a different kettle of fish. And there's a psychological theory by Freud called repetition, compulsion. It's called schema chemistry, right? And essentially what that is that you will get into relationships. That is the old theory with a parent, right?

So you can look at, your partners so I don't know if you want to and I have this chat with people and they're horrified and you'll see characteristics probably of the parent that you got on released or the one that bothers you the most. Yeah, that's right? Everybody's sitting in the room like, oh no, she didn't.

I did. So the problem that you've got there with relationships is that if that situation at home was particularly unhealthy you're going to go in that cycle again. Yeah. Right.

right so that's why that's opening pandora's box because that's why people find themselves in relationships that are only that healthy and then they come out that one then they go into another one and so on and so on and that's kind of how that plays out until they go into therapy and have a chat about that yeah I do think relationship advice and that sort of thing is a whole different ballgame isn't it it is because of those because of those dynamics like it's meaty and I've no done any relationship training I've done other types of training about schema therapy and things like that

that talk a lot about relationships and I've worked in domestic abuse for a while for five years so I know a lot about it but aye it's a podcast in itself honest it's huge we'll get you back I'm sitting here sweating

this is quite a good one So I lived abroad for 10 years. I've moved home. In brackets, they've put sick, serious. Okay, so they were seriously sick. Then COVID hit. I still don't feel like I belong. Yeah, what any...

I suppose, like, how do you know if you're in the right place, right time? Yeah. Yeah. We sort of touched based on that, I didn't mean, the last one. Yeah. Well, when you move away, your identity changes almost, isn't it? Because I've, I lived abroad for a while, and you get to know people,

and you're kind of moving into a different culture and all that. sort of stuff. For that person, what we need to remember is human beings are, we're instinctually social. We hunt in packs and we don't do well on our own, right? That's where depression stems from that I am alone in the world. And that's a really sad place for people to be. And when you come back for such, you know, a gap away, 10 years is a long time. You're like a whole new person. You're essentially having to build your life up for scratch again. And that's perhaps what this. So I know a few people that happened to and through therapy and treatment that they went away and came back just before COVID came and they never got to settle because of that because they had

thought right well I'll do this job we'll start the job and the job was working for home so you're not going to meet pals and people working for home are you no so because the best part of working in an office is not sitting with your pal it's cutting about drinking and bitching about folk out the coffee machine having to drink a bat on your lunch and going you know all that sort of stuff and people missed that yeah so it was brilliant didn't have the community but so these people are so they're two years has a long time to be struggling that that's the reason why I ultimately sort of quit my office job wasn't it I couldn't handle it anymore hated it hated it going from one room to the other and just to sit and just it was just not I'm quite a

social person so I think I needed that and it really did affect me after about a year and a half of it I just thought and I think I also had anxiety of actually leaving the house on a lunch break in case like my boss phoned me I didn't feel like I could actually leave the house except on the weekend and even then you had restrictions being able to go anywhere it was just a vicious cycle it's awful yeah so more worry yeah more worry we'll just leave that there yeah one last one now then so uh 38 year old female single no kids and i'm okay with this friends distancing slash very mean comments i'm feeling very deep anxiety and very lonely so what's probably happening there is that that that I mean this is just a hypothesis based on that comment but um is depression and with depression

there is an element of anxiety you do get anxiety with depression that'll be one of the remember the ones I was talking about early today maybe functioning the the problem that they have is if they've got friends that are distancing themselves then they need to question the friendship yeah so and that's massive for folk like that's really overwhelming because some folk would rather be in friendships that are they good for them than be alone and that's a shame and I get that I totally get that because as human beings we need interaction don't we so I'll take the scraps but what does that do what you think that does to you it just confirms what you already feel about yourself if you're already feeling like crap and people are

treating you like crap then yeah same in relationships as well I guess people stay with people because they have the fear of being single or alone absolutely because being alone's quite scary and frightening yeah so it's about building resilience and self-esteem yeah we're back to self-esteem again, it's a wee theme. Yeah, going through the chat, it's self-esteem and... I think as well, people are really guilty of, like we discussed on our podcast

about social pressures, and it's just about, like, people need to be more mindful that not everyone wants to be at the same stage, at the same age, and all that stuff of their life. So just because you're 30-odd and your friend's single,

like, why should that change your friendship? They shouldn't need to be at the same stage you, why? I think what happens is because I was listening to your wee chat last week about it, and I think what happens is, And I think what happens is my answer to that, Zoe, because I was like, I know an answer to that. I was listening to it and I thought,

I think the, well, my opinion of it is that other people are changing because they're no able to give up their time as much because they're, so it's not that you're no thought about, it's just that their attention has to go elsewhere. And then, so you've got a group of friends that are all maybe getting married and having kids and all that sort of stuff,

which is what you kind of chatted a wee bit of, about the natural progression in life is generally kids and marriage if you want to look at all that by if you want to go to society or 30 odds, right? If you choose not to, which is totally people's choice, these people will move on

because they are. Yeah, but they just don't have as much like free time for just friendships anymore they've got a family to think about and they have different priorities. Aye, let me, my pals, we kind of meet up, we need to book it in like months in advance because you get all that stuff going on.

But if we'd a single pal that didn't have kids, in that group that would be really difficult yeah and it's not that nobody wants to spend time with them with anything that it's not like that it's just you're just wildly busy yeah working and and all that sort of stuff but i get why folk would get lonely yeah i think people just need to be mindful of everyone's different circumstances and know that you're not all going to be in the same place at the same time absolutely and there's no rules remember that i was listening to when you were chatting last week and jess was talking about you want to go and travel and you know because you've well seen use I wouldn't have been going travelling as much

because I've got two kids but had I been new age that's two years I know travelling that's two years I know seeing the world so you get two years to catch up on which kind of stunts things a little bit for that perspective so I think things have just went a wee bit wonky lately but there's no

I mean when we talk about societal pressure where is that coming from I suppose would be my question but where do you feel that's not you talked about your nan is that right giving you a hard time she always asks me when I'm having a baby hurry up because she wants one

that is literally it when can I buy a hat for the wedding and you know and I would love that nothing more than that but I don't feel like I'm doing it more for other people at this moment than it would be myself

and it has to be right for me doesn't it? Absolutely and you're right to do that yeah I think a lot of people it is in their own head too yeah they can know quite a few people who really do compare

ages and stages of life to everyone around them and I'm like you're the only person that feels that. that way about you no one else is thinking about you like and is there someone around you that you want their life because there isn't so why are you comparing it to that it might be because they feel like they're missing out because I could the only reason I can compare that is myself when I was in my 20s and I had a couple of dodgy

relationships and my my friends like my course was four years they were kind of moving on they were getting married and you know the path and a plan and I was like I'm out here in my way Australia for a while because I was I just was not only the same things just weren't working out but I needed a change because they had this the pressure was not coming for them

and I didn't have any of that and I'm thinking this is actually a bit of a worry here what's going to what my den what's happening so went away for a while and came back

the same person but anyway it's where I get drunk for nine months and then came back but I think that comparison comes no from the people

that are kind of steady, the folk that, maybe the single people, know that sounds harsh, I don't mean it like that, but they see folk looking pretty settled and there's a worry there. What about me? I'm going to get left behind and, you know, and I'm lonely, you know,

they're all away out and they've got plans for the weekend with their partners, I've not got anybody. I can only go out with who's no doing something. Yeah. That's not a nice place to be. What would be your advice for that person if they're feeling that way? I think they need to open up their hobbies and interests a bit more.

and fill the gaps because that's essentially what it is it's been able to pick and choose friends not anybody, no just pick pals up but think about your hobbies and then first and foremost that gives you things to do don't care where it is

it could be, I say that to people all the time it could be knitting, it could be hill walk and it could be whatever but join groups there's groups meet up apps obviously you need to risk assess them but there is meet up apps and things like that where there is groups of people going about

and you might know meet your best pal but it might be fill up your time but it's that whole idea of rejection or my pals are rejecting me they're no, they're just moving on slightly differently for you and you're internalising and I get it because you're lonely we don't do well when we're on or on

we just don't as human beings and I know you talked about introvert and extrovert and all that and had a wee laugh about that in my head as well as light up and do you think that everything happens when the time is right? Because I really push that on people. Like I love saying that and because I believe it

but do you believe it? Like would you say that's people? I think my opinion and that's probably changed over the years as I've got older, probably a bit more wiser, you're much more wise than me when I was 26, but my anxiety was I needed to fit the societal norms, I need to get a man, I need to

settle down, and I never, I just did it all myself, got my own flat, moved in myself, and on that. I think now, definitely I think that the more you remember, the more you try to do something, the more a barrier you become to yourself. The more you try and control, the more out of control things become. So if we go

back to Jess's plan, like goals and all that, that she was doing great, gone great guns, but trying to control too much, it just becomes out of control and then the struck buttons pressed and the whole weekend's gone there. So I do believe that it's, but I think that's easy for me to say retrospectively and go, aye, aye, I get it now, my 20s, we're like, who I'm all at my day and 30s, you didn't necessarily think. Absolutely not. Yeah. Not at all, because all as I did was look at everybody else. Because you judge yourself on your peers, don't you? yeah that's what you do and if they're auditing something that you'll know

then you're gonna want to do the same and wonder why is that no happening for me but I'd have rather been on my own than being with guys for example that was not interested in wow everyone can be wise like me not everyone can be wise like usually people always call me wise

yeah I think people say that you don't see me at age at all well not even might have been 26 now aren't you yeah but I've been like this forever yeah you have I've always been wise I'm always heading your shoulders You're not going to fit out that I don't want to be it

Well thank you so much for coming on the podcast It's been very interesting I want to ask you what's been on your plate this week food wise I knew you'd asked Zohy that they're doing she better no ask me my food plate And it wasn't the hot girl summer salads

Oh my God why not But it wasn't of that Because I don't have time to cook What was on my plate Barbecues this weekend Pizza homemade pizza that my friends made And the Oney, is it like totally terrible at them to start with but to get better as an evening on. I was like, you know, I live like, I'm like a little bit of an oven thing.

It is a task in itself getting them on to work. Yeah, so I'm missing some decent food, cooked meals like a roast. Yes, a good roast. That's what I need today. Everyone I've spoken to since I've talked about that, that you say that we are rubbish at it are so in disagreement. Well, obviously they've not had an English roast, have they? So how could they agree?

Well, I don't know, but I'm just telling you. Right, well, this dilemma is very stressful. It's a nice, light-hearted one, though. I think my boyfriend is going to propose. Well, actually, I know he is because I've accidentally found a ring. How do it act surprised and fake cry? Please help a girl out. How does she accidentally find a ring?

That's what I'm not. She knows it's happening. We need to know where she was pregnant. You must have went looking for it unless he's been, like, you're putting left it lying out somewhere but surely not maybe it was in like some sort of top draw yeah i don't i don't know you go to some effort don't they to hide it i think she'd been snoom she has been snooping but also you're just going to like you're just going to necks prized like there's no other option because that's a shame imagine if it's like they'll have actually

actually seen where he actually bought it from another woman um right oh no why we put this in her head no sorry shouldn't have said that did she like the right that's what i know like did she actually right what he asked can that too yeah because that would be even more I didn't like it. Oh my God. You'd be like if I ever told you that's kind of style of ring I like. Well, what you just say?

You've got to get your best acting skills and when it gets done on one knee, you've got to pretend that you never had any idea. I have my idea. Rub some onion in your eyes or some pepper. Get the onions out. What's been on your plate? I had a barbecue yesterday

and my dad was highly offended at me saying in a previous episode that every time I went to his house for a barbecue was doing it in the oven. So he said in front of everyone yesterday you'll be glad to know I'm doing it on the actual barbecue you could get. I was like thank you. Glad you listened.

Love it. Okay well thank you so much Ashley for coming in to see us. It's been wonderful a pleasure and if you got any advice for anybody before you leave or a number website that they can contact you one or your team? Just get us at counselling and CBT services we do with an Instagram but we're like total dinosaurs so you'll be like usually Facebook

I know a lot of younger. demographic I'm doing on Facebook but well we can link it in our description so click below click below see I wouldn't even know how to do that that's the first time either of us have ever said that so

here we go and we'll try and attach some of the videos that you've spoken about the one on YouTube we'll try and get that in description as well oh that the only humans one yeah we'll do that things like that just to make it be easier very well mine yeah okay well thank you so much thanks very much for for having me thank you so much bye

bye Thank you. I. Thank you.