A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 10: Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

With what can only be described as "season finale energy," today we detour from our Clone Wars journey in order to (re)visit the final film in George Lucas' much derided Prequel Trilogy: Revenge of the Sith.  Do we debate at length where the final blame for Anakin's downfall lies? Yes. Do we dream up ways that things could have gone differently? Absolutely. Do we find ways to talk ourselves into circles? Oh, without a doubt. Join us for this four and a half our dive into Revenge of the Sith. If you (and we) can make it through this, then the rest of Clone Wars will be nothing. (Also, if you enjoy this, reminder that you can support the show and listen to a monthly Q&A by going to patreon.com/civilized. Oh and be sure to check the show notes on the site to get all the Important Secondary Material we'll reference throughout this pod.) Next time: Clone Wars Episode 17-18 (The Blue Shadow Virus Arc) Show Notes Sheev's Gamer Chair (With Cat Ears) Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Austin Walker Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Clone Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zackney, joined by Ali Akapora, Austin Walker, and Natalie Watson. Just like we promised at the start of this podcast series, we're taking a pause between the hidden enemy and the crucial Blue Shadow Virus arc to visit Revenge of the Sith. This is an unconventional chronology, I know, but in this essay, we will establish that this is the most authentic and indeed intended way to experience, no. All right, you got us. This was ill-conceived. Ironically, I didn't realize how ill-conceived it was until I watched Revenge of the Sith and realized that there is no real drama or tension around the clones at all in the film. and therefore there isn't really anything in the prequel trilogy

that the cartoon anchors into in the least so we have to take this movie on its own merits as the finale of the prequel trilogy and not for how it pays off on anything that's going to happen in the Clone Wars cartoon and gang I don't think I saw a lot here that changes any of our diagnosis of this trilogy and Lucas's approach to it

the execution is better in a couple places the, I would say the cast does seem to be having a little more fun with their roles, even if the material is still really bad. And some of the big CGI set pieces are nice. But the writing is as bad as it's ever been. And at the end of this movie, I am left enjoying some of the plot beats more as ideas than as actual scenes. What about y'all? How do you feel about them, Sith?

They got their revenge. They sure did. For what? I don't know. Well, actually, I do know. No, it just you wouldn't know it except there was a mural in Palpatine's office that explains what they want revenge for, sort of, and you just couldn't know what it is, so. Why name it that then? Why name that, why name the movie that if you're not going to make the movie about that?

Because it sounds like Return of the Jedi, and so it rhymes. No one does it? Conceptually does. Yeah, ROTS versus ROTJ. That's very much what they were going for. I'm in, uh, I-N-T-J, actually. Okay, great. Do you think the Jedi have, uh, like, that style of personality type testing for the young ones?

A hundred percent, right? They've got to be doing some kind of awful, like, just completely consigning kids to entire, like, career tracks based on just like, you're going to be a book Jedi. Go work in the archives. But I want to do something. Nope. you're a librarian. I wonder if there's any of that sort of like horoscope-based shit on like what kind of Jedi are you?

Like, oh, it's Sentinel Jedi, you know, July 31st to whatever. You're going to have good luck this week. Jedi personality quizzes to each other at the Jedi Temple, like, internet. And the Jedi Team Beat magazine. Like. God. So just to get us back on track a little bit, I like this movie. probably more than you, Rob.

And I actually left it with a galaxy brain take and some resolution about an ongoing question that I've had since forever. But I think I put this question to Waypoint Radio a year plus ago when I was first watching Clone Wars and it was like, why is Palpatine like this? And I have an answer now that is not a lore answer, but is the ways in which Lucas sees this trilogy.

And it also helped me figure out where the tension is for me in this prequel trilogy and I don't know if I want to like Galaxy Brain off the bat but maybe I should just like dump Lord dump this take and I'm ready for it So like here

what do people know about Revenge of the Sith besides the plot I think the thing is it's filled with memes right there are I don't know Natalie if this hit your like subgeneration of millennials

but in my generation of millennials this fucking thing is filled to the brimless stuff that people quoted each other a lot. Yeah. Ranging from like, do it to like unlimited power. No. The I have the high ground.

Yeah. If you were on You're the Man Now Dog in 2005, all you talked about was this movie for like the next six months. A hundred percent. The Darth Vader, no, you heard like ten times a day. The like, this is where the fun starts. Yeah. It just filled with it. You were like a brother.

to me, all of that stuff. And historically, or in the past, not historically, but in my past, I've thought about those as being like belly flop lines that are like so goofy that they are bad. But rewatching it, the thing that I think sticks with me, I'm trying to think about this movie versus Attack of the Clones and Phantom Menace, which both have meme lines in them also the you're your whatever I hate sand uh now this is pot racing right there are a couple right but not like this this is just every fucking scene has some wild line that is super memorable in this way but is the line okay go ahead let me finish my galaxy brain take which is i think

this is the closest Lucas gets in the prequel trilogy to approaching the legibility and memorability of the epics that he wants to, the epic, like, space he wants to work inside of. And when I say epic there, I mean the genre space of the poetic epic. I'm talking about, like, Beowulf going to fight the dragon. Yeah, Darmak and Jalad from Star Trek, Next Generation,

Prometheus stealing the fire, Lucifer falling into hell, right? Like, these sorts of hyper-legible, super memorable moments. And, and this film is just, like, filled with them. It's filled with these things. that are, that just burrow into, into your brain. And he, and I think that's because he executes on them, or everyone, the whole staff executes on them well enough to make these really broad brushstroke moments actually work.

And that wraps around to like, my, my beef with Palpatine as a character a year plus ago was, why does he do this? What is his end? And, like, to what end does he want to live forever? Going back to, you know, actually, I was first thing about it coming off of, what's, It's the fucking final movie called Rise of Skywalker. I always want to say Rise of the Skywalker because both of these other final trilogy movies have the in them. Rise of Skywalker in which he wants to live forever again for some fucking reason.

And it's not clear. And I think part of the tension here is because the movies work really well at this epic genre scale where it's poetics and it's not particulars, but it's abstract ideas bouncing into each other and rendered materially. but the but it's also written by someone or made by by by people who are interested in the particulars who are interested in the like the trade federation and the ways in which clones are designed and made and programmed both literally and figuratively and all those those things and so I think there is a tension between the sort of um the sort of abstract space of the fantasy epic and the political drama space that stuff like the Obi-Wan investigation arc in Attack of the Clones produces. So that's part of where that tension comes from. But when

fucking Palpatine's just in the middle of his arrest decides to just say power, unlimited power, not in response to a question really. He's not saying, this is why I'm doing it. He just says it. It just like comes out of him like lightning. Like he can't but say power, unlimited power.

And this is why I tweeted the other day that that line is the, everybody everybody needs money. That's why they call it money. line from Heist, in which Danny DeVito, so consumed by money, thinks the word money is inside of money. They're like, this is the only reality there could be. We call it money. It oozes money from the thing.

And in that moment, it's like, oh, right, Palpatine, I can't think about Palpatine as a political actor. I have to think about him as the personification of avarice greed, a desire for power. And when I think about him in that way, and when I think about this movie in that way, I think about the characters in this movie in that way. One, I forgive a lot because when I'm thinking about it as a political drama,

when I have to think about like the relationship between Natalie Port between Padmay and Anakin, it gets rough. But when I think about it in this broader operatic sense, so much stuff clicks into place. And that's why I think the purest version of this you can watch is the AMV that I linked in the art chat, Star Wars, anime opening four,

prequel trilogy arc, that uses the Dragon or the Demon Slayer theme because I think anime openings also exist in this realm of poetics, this realm of broad brushstrokes and high emotion, you know, opera instead of needing to live up to the difficult task of telling a politically coherent, like, narrative. So that is my galaxy brain take about this movie. Again, I have to just like, it's been in here,

it's been boiling in here for days. So thank you for letting me just empty my brain out. Oh, man. I was like a fucked up crease in Austin's forehead. Yeah, it's right here. His skin, like, has a color. Uh-huh. Is eye yellow now?

Like, just for this shot. Don't disappear in the next shot. Don't worry. The Vader-fication is, is happening. I just went Vader mode, finally. Vader mode has finally come. Um, anyway, that's, that is where I ended up, which is, which is to say, I like this movie. I don't know that I like it as much as,

I wanted to like it, but I like it more than I did last time I watched it. How do the rest of y'all feel about it? I feel like there are still points of this movie that I'm still really disappointed by. I think, like, the Palpatine performance gets sort of lost on me, especially when they're, like, pushing this, like, toadishness in the beginning before his transformation. it's like they're trying it's like they're trying to foreshadow that this is going to happen

and it's like just him saying things weird isn't like emotionally charged enough for me to really care about that but like when I really try to think about like what the tension is and like what the emotional arc that Anakin is going for

I feel a lot more sympathetic for it I think the the sort of worst thing about this movie for me is that like Clone Wars didn't actually take part in between it because there's no sense that the war actually happened and like when you think about the place

that Anakin's in where he's like he thinks that this war should have ended but it didn't and he's outside of it and he's lost his place like within the Jedi temple and he's going to be this new father and he has all of these things to deal with like none of that feels like it hits because you don't get the sense

that he's like left this like actual horrible traumatic experience of like fighting in a shitty war for a really long time so i mean that happens like right away right there's the bit right away where it's when they fight duku and duku says something like oh it's it's obiwan says this time we'll do it together referring to the fact that anakin rushed in to fight him at the end of attack of the clones yeah and it's like why would you reference that we've had so many adventures together between that and now um that it doesn't It just doesn't land if you're coming off of Clone Wars and into this, which, again, we've kind of shown is not, it's just not how it works. At the point, at the point that Revenge of the Sith was in development, was Clone Wars on the horizon in any capacity?

Not as far as I know. The Clone Wars, the Tartikovsky shorts had already aired all of those. But the upcoming, you know, the 2D, the 2D Clone Wars show. had already aired, the 2003 one. But the 2008 one is still five years away, and I don't think has, and it's not even in pre-production yet. Yeah. I mean, that's such a good point, Allie.

When you think about, it's a really interesting point when you think about why we decided to watch this movie because I don't think that there's, for somebody that, like, If we would have waited to watch this movie at the end of Clone Wars, like at the end of all seven seasons or whatever, it would have been for fucking nothing. Because there's no payoff of anything that's established, like any of the relationships that come together or fall apart in Clone Wars, the series, they have no place here. It's so much the other way, right? It is, it is, I mean, this is, it's, it's dramatic irony 101, which is, which is, what I was how I pitched this show again on Waypoint like forever ago, it is like, hey,

there's that scene halfway through this movie where Obi-Wan, before, before Anakin goes away to go deal with shit on Mustafa, which I know what we should do, like a summary of this movie in a second probably, but he says the bit who's like, you are strong and wise, Anakin, and I'm very proud of you. And like the Clone Wars TV show is partially a realization that's like, oh, we could just do that but for seven seasons. Like you could just zero in on the character and their relationships with each other and the ways in which these two people bond and the other ways in which Anakin grows over the course of, you know, an episodic adventure story instead of doing it or instead of just letting that one scene kind of say that that relationship

existed. But you don't get it the other way, really. I don't know. That scene still worked for me, but, but yeah. I mean, I think I really liked this movie. I'm like I can't I don't I think this movie is just unhinged like it feels like everyone was just like okay mask off like let's just fucking do this like let's just do the most bat shit performances that we can and let's just lean all the way in and I feel like when it's doing that

Like when Palpatine's doing is like, me, like, Palpatine's like little smile at the end of every fucking line delivery is gold. It's delicious. It's fucking great. And looking at the deleted scenes, I know this is kind of jumping ahead, but I feel like there's in some of the deleted scenes that we'll talk about. for example, the escape, sorry, the elevator antics and the, where is it? Oh, grievous slaughters a Jedi. Like, I think those two scenes are fucking galaxy brain scenes, and it is such a shame that they took those out of the movie because I feel like those are the best parts of what

happens in this movie is when like things are just, because there is no. elevator escape is elevator escape the moment that the doors open and where they reveal a bunch of other droids or is that but before but it's the part of he does the droid voice yeah that is all that is i don't love that because what george lucas has done there is is presciently predicted the rise of shitty weedin-esque banter adventure films the marvel movies are in this are in the deleted scenes of this fucking movie and I won't stand for it for I feel like I super disagree that the like because the first like 20 minutes for yeah I would say 20 minutes of this movie are like such like a distillation of like what's good and bad about these trilogies and I feel like when you get like Obi-Wan and Anakin like having good banter and having this good relationship it's like some of the fun of the the the original series where it's like just hot people being fucking doofuses and like that's all Star Wars needs to be yeah. then there's like... I like that, to be clear. The stuff that's in the movie, I'm down for. Sure, sure, sure. But then I feel like there's just like such a tonal breakaway between the first

like five scenes where it just bounces up and down and it just sort of doesn't know where it wants to go, that it just, it sort of loses it. It feels like to me like they were redoing the like, the like, the like, the, like, the, the other episode. Was it Duku that gets captured? Because it felt so much like that arc of episodes. Oh, right. Yeah.

Of. Yeah. In terms of, in terms of like the two of them walking around and like bantering about who's fucking up, basically. And the writer's room just revising stuff on the fly. I mean, yeah, that's part of why I like those two deleted scenes. Because I think that they're like so evocative of their. relationship that we get in Clone Wars and also I think the thing is my expectations for

Revenge of the Sith and the Star Wars like this these prequels is they're not going to fucking deliver on the shit that I want them to deliver on which is like the hard hitting like politics like say what you really fucking mean don't you know wax on about some bullshit and like give us a vague phrase about you know whatever and then and then all of the meaning of that be hidden in a fucking mural or be hidden in some comic I didn't read okay I mean that that that mural is referencing a thing that like that like hardcore fans are no but it is not the secret you don't need to understand that to understand that the Sith are assholes who want to be in control which is really what it comes down to right but so much what I mean when I say you

I also wanted a lore reason for why Palpatine wants the things he wants. And there isn't one that's viable because the thing he wants is everything. He's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a chaos agent. Yes, 100%. And so like, what I point to the great hyperspace war mural, it's to be like, oh, look, there's that thing that's referencing this thing from the expanded universe. But even that doesn't actually explain why he is the way he is. I just want to be clear. I didn't want to overstate.

Right. No, I understand that. But I think you have to, to get that. type of depth from Revenge of the Sith or any of the prequel films, you have to be so fucking zoomed in. You have to like read so deeply between the lines. And they're just never going to be, you get like, it's like a flash of, of any sort of. I guess the thing is for me to push back on that. I was just talking to Jackson from Great Gundam Project and abnormal mapping. And what they said was the reward for watching the Star Wars prequels is being able to think about

the Star Wars prequels from that point on, which is extremely funny and true, because the way that everyone I know who likes those movies has done this is for 20 years, they've saw that movie 20 years ago, and for 10 years, like, that movie fucking sucked. And for the 10 years after that, they've slowly begun, huh, but what else was happening there? What is, what else can I play with in my mind to transform my experience of this movie into something pleasurable for me? and I can't do that with any Marvel movie I've ever seen. I cannot linger on anything from the Avengers or from anything from Iron Man or from anything from Black Panther and turn it into something else.

There's nothing workable there for me. I can say I like them in the parts that I like them, but there isn't that like malability and that sort of like, not for me. And again, I understand that I am a deep outlier in terms of my appreciation of that franchise. But, like, I think if I'm comparing this to, like, real political fiction, of course you're right. Like, of course, or even, or even, like, long-form television shows that are able to dig deep into political content, right?

And often those include genre shows, right? You can talk about something like the expanse here, which I don't know that my politics and the expanses politics line up, but there's lots to chew on there in a way that these movies just don't even get close for sure, absolutely. But when I compare them to other films, other like action adventure genre films that are going for a similar audience in terms of age and range, like I do think that there is that there is something here that works for me. I agree with you. I mean, I think the thing, the thing is I can tell that Lucas wants to say something. Totally. Like you can feel behind the surface. I mean so much when you when you look at I we'll get into it there's a specific scene that I'm thinking about that was like so clearly a comment on you know the political era the political moment that that that that the movie came out in I think I just because I know it's never it's not going to be said out loud it's like the more bizarre the more room there is to play.

with it. Whereas I feel like Marvel movies, to your point, are extremely sterilized and don't have that room to play with in the way that they are given to us. And so there's like something about, there's something about the chaos of Revenge of the Sith that like I, and with its high highs and low lows that I just, I think it's, it's, it. remains extremely compelling to me, which is unreal, because attack the clones I was so fucking down bad on. Like, I thought that was a shit movie. Yeah, I still basically feel that way about that movie.

I feel that way about the second half. Like, I'm increasingly like, yeah, first half, though. Basically until that factory, things are going pretty good. Like, well, no, even there, you have to make the caveats, though. Like, the scene where Anakin deals with ramifications of mass screen, the same. and people. Terrible. But the fact that he does it.

Yes. Exactly. But it went there. This is the best Wikipedia summary I've ever read. So they were like animals to Anakin, and he slaughtered them like animals. Yeah. The women and the children, too. Tell me more.

Let me click the hyperlink consequences of Massacre of the Sand People. None. Yeah, zero. all right so before we get further along let's just hit the broad outline of this the movie unfolds pretty briskly opens with a huge space battle and rescue mission being mounted to rescue chancellor palpatine from the separatists who kidnapped him from uh khorasan anakin and obiwan have to get aboard grievous command ship very sick song in that sequence by the way just the music in the opening of this movie feels distinct from most of the other like opening moment pieces of music in in star

wars like obviously star wars will occasionally do the or often will do the opening thing of like the slow pan in and then boom it's action time but there's this like the moment between we're panning and showing you space and here are our principal actors feels extended so that you can see the broad like scale of the combat above khorasan like you get that for a minute or something. I'm guessing. I've not, you know, I did not time it out. But it feels like that's longer than the pan down and then you see

Layas ship. You know what I mean? Yeah. Shit is already going down. Yes. So the rescue unfolds pretty quickly. Count Duku is killed by Anakin at Chancellor Palpatine's urging. Palpatine is rescued. They return victorious

to the Republic. Where the war appears to be as in on stages and Anakin finds himself caught between the Jedi who are suddenly suspicious of Palpatine and Palpatine who's telling him that the Jedi have gone bad and turning against him. And Anakin has to deal with this and the fact he's got a lot on his mind because Padme is pregnant and he's starting to have premonitions of her death. Things go pretty quickly from there. Anakin is sort of forced onto the Jedi Council at Palpatine's urging.

As he draws closer to the Chancellor, he basically discovers slash is straight up told by Palpatine. Palpatine is a Sith. And Anakin dimes him out immediately to the Jedi Council, and the Jedi Council say, you stay here, we'll take care of this. We want, you know, you shouldn't have part of this. Naturally, Anakin does not stay there. He goes and intervenes.

And because Palpatine has been hinting that he can save Padmei from her impending death, Anakin does a heel turn at the last second, kills Mace Windew, and Order 66 goes out, and soon most of the Jedi across the galaxy are fragged by their own clone troopers, and only a few, including Obi-Wan and Yoda Escape. From there, we enter a pretty rapid end game for what's the Left of the Civil War. Anakin, now that it's full mask off time, Anakin is sent as Darth Vader

to massacre the last of the separatists. Padma goes to meet up with him, to try to stop him with Obi-Wan in tow. He's sent to kill the Jedi, and then he's sent to kill the Trade Federation. While this is happening, Obi-Wan links up with Yoda, and they're like, well, things are fucked up now

although the clones try to kill us and they decide to go back to the Jedi Temple to like see what happens. Right, they pull up the security tapes. It ain't good, right? It ain't good. You know, I was like, don't look. Those holo security tapes are weird,

but we'll get to that. So, yeah, so Padma rushes to Anakin's side on Mustafa after being tipped by Obi-Wan that like, hey, he's gone bad. But Obi-Wan, true to what we know of his character now, especially in the cartoon, even when well-intentioned, there's a little bit of deceit at the guy's heart. He is stowed away aboard Padmay's ship. The minute he appears, Anakin launches into a paranoid rage, chokes out Padmay, and then he and Obi-Wan fight. It's a big, very kinetic fight with lots of special effects.

It is also paralleled by another fight. Yoda decides he's going to go straighten this thing out, Palpatine, right the fuck now. And damn near does it. Damn near. They end up brawling on the floor of the Senate, which is pretty cool. And it all ends somewhat, well, not more than somewhat. It all ends pretty tragically. Obi-Wan defeats Anakin, and Anakin basically chooses to self-immolate rather than surrender.

and Obi-Wan was sent to kill him under no uncertain terms. Like Yoda told him, like, you have to assassinate your boy. And Obi-Wan was like, okay, I'm leaving you for dead. Wink, wink.

It sucked, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, he gives him a lot of off-ramps. Yeah, totally. Oh, in terms of like letting himself turn himself in or drop his saber? Yeah, 100%. But then, Allie, are you saying that he,

you're saying he should have finished. the job. I'm, yeah, yes, 100%. Do you think he, do you think he believed that how, how much of a percentage, yeah, how much of a percent do you think he had in his mind? Like, there's a chance to live through this. Well, like, nine, right? And, like, it's weird, because in that scene, he isn't, like, saying goodbye to him, but, like, he knows that he can't leave that planet without killing him, right? Like, that is his mission he's going to do it. Um, I, there's maybe a point earlier in that battle where he was willing to turn Anakin but like once it happened it happened

but like I feel like a gun is a civilized weapon in the case where you could like actually put someone down instead of doing this like awkward like he could have just leaned out there with that save and just sort of like

pop play a ball yeah you're gonna just kicked him into the fucking lava or force throwing him into the lava probably yeah I feel if you watch a guy's flesh hit the flashpoint, though. I can't fault Obi-Wan for being, like, that's a wrap. Well, here's the thing, is that Obi-Wan didn't have to, like, keep looking back as he was

walking up that hill. Like, once you've decided to walk away, you walk away. Like, the, like, sheepish, like, sorry about that, bud, see you later. It's just, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. He loves his boy. He loves his boy. They keep saying brother, but it's absolutely a father situation.

He raised that fucking kid. Cool uncle. Cool uncle at the very least. Absolutely. So with everything having basically gone bad here, Yoda realizes that Palpatine is not going to be unseeded by the remaining Jedi. They believe that at least Anakin has been dealt with, but they're not going to be able to overthrow this new empire.

And Padmei dies of sadness in childbirth. And her... Oh, okay. She died. I guess that's the thing is, She dies of sadness because the doctor does say, there's nothing wrong with her physically. It's a nightmare. It's horrible.

But Antigant did just choke her into unconsciousness. So there has to be some physical damage. There's got to be some ramifications from that. Well, it made her sad. I used to know if her sad. You're right. You're right. You're right.

And I should, this isn't productive to say on this show. But I was, I saw a YouTube video that was like, Padmae didn't die from sadness Here's the truth And I didn't watch that video Because like fuck you Like the movie presented Oh she's healthy

But she doesn't want to be alive And like I don't care about your YouTube video And like It's so so so so So sad to me That like we actually see her Interacting with her children And still the answer that we get

From the film is that she was too sad to go on Like, it's just, like, a version of writing about women that is so painful because, like, it just can't comprehend Padme as her own person outside of her relationship with Anakin. Even in the other gender essentialist mother role, like, they can't even pivot her to mom. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think the biggest faults of this movie are twofold. One is the fact that Padma essentially has zero role.

in any moving piece of this whole movie. She doesn't do shit. My first note in this movie was like, everyone knows what movie they're in except Padmay. She doesn't have jack shit to do, I guess. Like, okay. And then the second is Ahmed Best. Where the fuck was Jar Jar the whole time?

He pops up in the background like twice. She doesn't have a single line. That's not true. He has one line, and it's, excuse me, as he bumps into somebody. Is that, oh, when they're, like, walking in at the beginning or something? Yeah, I don't know where the fuck it is. I looked at a single line. How do you feel, Jar Jar.

I know. I don't know how you go from attack. Because Jar Jar Jar would have sorted this out. Yeah. If Jar Jar had been there, he'd have been like, this doesn't feel right. And then through a comic series of misadventures, like Yoda's there, like, fighting with Palpatine. And, like, Jar Jar Jar tries to help. Palpatine, it accidentally drops one of those

like podia on him, and like she dies. And oopsie. And that's the end of the Sith. You're right. You're right. But I will say in defense of her dying of sadness, it has been established that her love of Anakin was always tied to her being ready to die.

She was always down to die. And he's been posted up and waiting. They're like, all right, here's my moment. Time to beautifully expire. There is apparently a deleted scene that had Jar Jar in it. My Best says here, in Revenge of the Sith, there was a scene that was cut where I'm walking down a long pathway with Ian McDermid who plays Palpatine before he's turned into the emperor. And Palpatine kind of thanks Jar Jar Jar for putting him in power. It's a really interesting scene, and it shows the evolution of Jar Jar from this fun living kids character into this manipulated politician.

and it was an interesting arc for the character that I thought could have been explored because the scene is really dark but it just didn't fit in the movie which I understand but yeah George's take on it is that Jar Jar Jar is now just a politician Put that scene in the movie

George and we get that moment in the cartoon where it's like yeah Jar Jar Jar's got some reckoning to do before he fucks off to that carny town where he befriends that kid or whatever we were talking about the other day

Is that making it into a main episode If you don't know what we're talking about, I think that might be in a Q&A episode in which we talk about the eventual fate of Jar Jar Bits. It becomes a sort of juggling clown who everyone hates. And he gets situated with an orchard. He doesn't that look like the guy I put Palpatine in power? I fucking hate that guy. I hate that guy. Good juggling, though.

He's a guy bad. He's fucking Pogliachi. Yeah, he is. He's fucking Pagliachi the clown. But Misa Jar Jar. So, yeah, and then we end with the two children being dispensed with to their various places. They'll be held in safekeeping. We see Obi-Wan begin his exile on Tatooine, Yoda heading off to Dagaba.

And it ends with the Lars family looking into the twin sons of Tatouine, waiting for a new hope. So that- Oh, Yoda also does note that he gives, remember he gives Obi-Wan a mission, and he says, yo, I've been talking to your boy, Quigon Jin, who figured out immortality. It's a great irony. I know. He drops that so fucking casually. That's another deleted scene, right? I know.

I watched the deleted scene where they're like, I mean, all of the deleted scenes are assumed knowledge, basically. Like, when you watch the deleted scenes, all of that is still in play in the movie. They just decided to fucking not tell you about it. I think that Quigon scene is kind of bad. I get why it gets cut because they film it and then they sit on it for a few weeks and they look at it and they're like, yikes, this did not land. But like the introduction of it as being like, well, it's the last two minutes of this movie

and I just got to let you know you're good, you know, let's just set this up. And fucking, I swear to God, if I ever see Yoda any day, it's on site. Because funny, that scene makes me so bad because like they're still ash on Obi-Wan's fucking ropes. Like, you could let this guy take a shower after killing his best friend to be like, yo, by the way, I got something I got to ask you. Like, are you fucking kidding me? You ready to get cheered up?

Huh? Huh? Go raise another child, you piece of shit. Go live in the desert and try to talk your other dead. Your other best dead friend. All right, so going back to the start real quick though I was so high on this movie Like the first 15 minutes

I was like holy shit They figured it out The space battle fucking rules Peace to R4 Shoutouts to R2's kill count Going up throughout Kill some buzz droids Drops those two droids on the inside of the ship

With the oil and fire trick Super meter all the way up I have to say, one of the funniest moments of this movie is when, like, Obi-1 is in his ship, looking out the window of his ship to Artu, like, giving him pointers on that fight. It's good. Artu shines. Artu absolutely shines. Absolute king.

Yeah. They should just let him run this war. Like, it should be one of those things where every time this thing comes up, everyone's just like, so. You know who's on this? You know who's on that? Bail Organa. at the end of this movie, when he ends up with C3PO and R2,

he puts his hand on C3P, he was like, wipe this one's memory. He does not touch R2. He knows R2 is necessary for the creation of a rebellion. And it's nothing on C3PO, but C3PO will dime out

the entire operation. C3PO is always taking notes during a criminal fucking conspiracy. I mean, you need somebody like that. You need someone organized. another thing to call out the beginning of this movie the Nemoedian who I think is working with Grievous who has like a surfer bra voice

it's unbelievable incredible someone was like uh these are a little racist and then they were like uh this one is from Venice Beach is this racist I would I would also like to give a shout out for Hayden Christensen's upper lip sweat while he's in the cockpit

of his little plane. The planes are too small, I do want to say. The planes are so tiny. The planes are so tiny. It's very funny. And the way they're both X-wing and like the Jedi fighters are little proto-tie fighters and the clones are all in little

proto-X-wings. But I think it also encapsulates the CG's gotten really good Lucas has become a good CG director if it's only CG elements really he like has like this is an amazing looking scene the camera movement through the battle

space is incredible and then like with every moment actors become more integral to the scene you're like is the vibe slipping off here is it are we certainly is it

that force when during the Count Duku fight when Duku forces the fucking, like, balcony onto Obi-Wan's ragdoll corpse. It just, like, flutters off.

It, like, slides right into place a little bit. Like, you could feel someone clicking and dragging to move it as if it was a layer in Photoshop. Yeah. But I was actually really surprised that this movie looks pretty good compared to attacks of the clones.

Like, and, And compared, you know, in modern day. Like, it, it looks pretty good. Like, yeah. Yeah, again, especially besides the background shit. But, like, grievous looks pretty good throughout. Yeah.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of good moments that you know are not practical effects. Like grievous breaking the window, like Mace Windu breaking the window. Any time a window breaks in this movie, it's hype as fuck. Yeah. And it looks pretty good. Absolutely. I think the other thing I'm picking up on us for the first time, maybe just because they've been doing this so long together,

Obi-Wan and Anna can actually feel like their homies. Like it actually feels now that these two actors are at least enjoying being in a Star Wars together. The lines suck. This is the weird thing. When I saw the extended version where they do have the goofs in the elevators, what's weird is the cut down actually felt better to me because it's not as forced. but like they're clearly they do have now kind of a buddy movie chemistry

that didn't exist at all in clones. There's a bit from a different behind the scenes featureette in which they're talking about they're talking about being able to notice details on the kind of there's like a pit of people and watching video screens

and that was new for this production before this you would kind of as a director you would have like a little black and white screen that you were able to watch But with this, one of the things that Lucas was like, we got to just do this, is he had big OLED, plasma screen, like widescreen TVs, like HD TVs were just coming out at that point and had a live video feed from every active camera going to those. So you had everyone around those TVs watching those for things being wrong.

So you have like your script supervisor bank, wait a second, don't do this, do that. And in that segment, there's a bit where, you know, Obi-Wan gets knocked out and Anakin has to carry him on his back for some reason. And he just goes to the wrong door and you just hear Lucas Cook, that's, that's the wrong door. And, and, and, and like, shrugs with, with, you know, Ewe McGregor on his fucking back and, like, marches over to the other door and hits the button. And it's the funniest, you know, it's just like, they're having, they are having fun together in that moment. And, you know, Ewan gets off and they're all laughing. And it's like, ah, yeah, that is, that bleeds into their relationship in a real way on screen.

Again, it's like, this is where the Clone Wars comes from. It's like, oh, these two people get along and they're having a blast fighting a bunch of droids and R2 pulls out all the stops to rescue them and grievous gets away. We get like grievous escaping here in a classic grievous way. In fact, he almost does it twice and the second time he gets to one of his like little escape vehicles. It's so good. It's really good. I think in general, Hayden Christensen just is so much.

much more comfortable throughout this entire movie than in Attack of the Clones. Like, he just, his, his line delivery isn't as stunted and, like, segmented as it was an attack of, and his facial expression and physical expression is so much more connected to, even though the lines are bad, like, at least everything feels cohesive in the way that he's delivering it. So, I was pleased. I see So I like

The throne room It's not a throne room scene But it is a throne room scene It's a throne room scene Like the entire Oh they're keeping Palpatine In the observation deck And he shows up

And he's got like these two Like really ineffectual looking handcuffs On his throne chair Where he's surveying the battle But where this movie started To concern me Is how quickly Duku It's just dispensed with

It's a Unbelievable. I love that sequence. This was the point at which I was like, oh, I have not seen this movie. Like, I literally was like, what the fuck is happening right now? They just, I could not. Grab the arms, flips around, cuts them off, grabs the saber, scissor cut. Like, it's unforgettable if you've seen it.

Yeah, I was like, yeah, I've never seen this shit. I was like, it's interesting because like the movie really makes. Stucu's death feel inconsequential. Austin, you had mentioned I guess a couple days ago now that Lucas had said that the Star Wars movies

are a silent film? Was that the quote? There's a quote in, this is in, there's a behind the scenes feature for this called something about a minute. I forget what the exact name is in which they walk through

every bit of, they take the minute from the duel and Mustafa and they go, how many people touched this one minute. How many people did it take to make this one minute of film and walk through the entire cast and crew? Everyone's names are on screen. It's like, here's the catering department. Here's the costume designer talking about how to do the scarring from the embers hitting their shit. It's like, it's really good. And in that, they talk about the score. And that's where Lucas

says, Star Wars is basically a silent film. So what were your, you seem like that line. I don't know that I agree with him there. He's the one who made Star Wars. So I don't know. about that but like the lack of music in the scene is like it's so interesting because as it's starting and there's nothing there it almost feels like like that movie trailer that didn't have the sound effects that it was all fucked up and like because you think that duku is like an important character you think that he's a big guy you think there's going to be a horn when he comes in and there's nothing like there's a little bit here and there and like i kept thinking about what natalie had said in the attack of the clones episode about like

these movies really being about Anakin and like it's so much that because this is just the beginning of Anakin's journey right like we get to the end of this movie and there's a fucking bell hit when Anakin is like are to wait for me here but like when he kills ducu you get like there's a violin I think and then that's it like the the depths of Anakin's transformation haven't even started yet so like the orchestra didn't show up and I thought that was a really interesting choice. Do you know if there's music playing when Palpatine immediately reframes what happens to Anakin? He does the bit where he's like, he cut off your hand, you wanted revenge. It wasn't the first time. And you see Anakin like, yeah, that is what just happened, which is not

at all what just happened. I love seeing Anakin just suck up that other story and incorporate it and position himself as the person who was in charge of that sequence or in control of that sequence when he was not at all in control of that sequence. And I'm curious if that moment got music because it's Palpatine taking action versus Duku kind of just being left to the side of the road at this point. Yeah, I don't think it does. I know that there's that bit where, like, immediately Palpatine is like, you know, you told me about the time that you, like, he's saying, like,

this isn't the first time that you've killed somebody. You told me. Yeah. Yeah. that immediately follows him saying that like this isn't the first time that this has happened or whatever and then they leave there's like a slight violin in the background and then they leave Anakin goes to pick him up and pick up Obi-Wan and they leave the hangar and in fact that's where Sidious is like leave him leave him behind it's we got to get out of here and I again like

this is just the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is well established here that shit doesn't work on him he will not leave Obi-Wan behind at this point he loves Obi-Wan he's attached to Obi-Wan and you can see Palpatine get a little frustrated at the fact that he can't do this which comes back again much later when

the big confrontation between Obi-Wan or between Anakin and Palpatine happens in the Palpatine's office Ian McDermott again is able to like slip into this like oh my God he's actually weak in the scene he doesn't have control over Anakin in this moment and it scares him a little bit which is I love like it's very

juicy to me. Yeah. It's also really funny to me that Palpatine thought that that would work when Obi-1 is supposed to be like really hurt. His pelvis should be shattered as far as what I could see in that movie. But two minutes later, he just stands up. Yeah, he's fine. He's fine. He's fine. He's good. When, sorry, go ahead, Rob. I was just going to say one thing I like in this scene, and I like it throughout the sequence, is the way every scene is played with Palpatine status to both sides being left evasive. So when Duku shows up he just goes

Duku, not look out or not Duku get them, just Duku. Could be talking to them, could be talking about him. And you see it again on the bridge where like the Jedi are prisoners but is Palpatine? It's like, yeah, if this goes, there's any way this could go, he could win

this, right? It's, it's, he's looking for whatever the opening is that he can play in the moment, which I think is interesting because it goes against the sort of grand scheme plan that I think we think about with Palpatine a lot. I was again talking with Keith, Keith Carberry from Friends of the Table, run button about about these movies. And Keith brought up that a funny thing about attack of the clones is that the, the, in, based on what we know at this point, at least, maybe this changes deeper into Clone Wars and we'll figure out there's something. something else here, but Keith was like, considering how fastidious Palpatine is about his grand plan, the whole thing hinged on some chance Jedi ordering a bunch of clones and him taking

advantage of that. And I actually love that version of Palpatine, that it's not some grand overarching plan. He's a really good opportunist. He sees opportunity and then adjusts his plans accordingly. And I think that that's so much more interesting. And again, going from that epic scale into the political drama scale, that is how bad actors actually work in our lives. Like, yes, the GOP has, for instance, pursued a particular strategy of rhetoric for the last 30 years to shift, you know, the window of discourse to the right. But also, the way that they enact policies to make people's lives worse is to seize on little opportunities that work in their favor that appear, you know, in brief historical flashes that allow them to seize power

and shift things. And so I do like this version of Palpatty that is always like ready to pivot and like switch up what his game plan is, that he isn't boxed into some like one true vision for the for what he's trying to enact, which again, it goes against, I think, the, the rise of Skywalker version of him. Completely. Where he is, he's always been working towards this weird grand plan of clones and whatever else he has going on.

Fucking horse shit. He's kind of a guy who's addicted but ultimately doomed by that desire to leave things open and always like have an out, always have an angle. Because ultimately what gets him killed and return the Jedi is he keeps saying like, let's see how this plays out until the two actors that he thought he could always like play against each other do the thing that hasn't happened to this point, which turned to each other and realize, wait, this is fucked up, right? And that's curtains.

And it nearly happens in this movie. Like, he sees, it's interesting, the trap he's in is, is Duku goes down so quickly that you realize, like, oh shit, the Jedi have a Trump card, which is that Anakin could just, like, single-handedly, like, close this entire thing out. And so the entire separatist war, the other set, just none of it matters anymore. So now he kind of has to commit to, I got to turn this kid. but like I kind of do wonder is he a little bit surprised by like his hand is forced Duku doesn't doco doesn't stand a chance yeah yeah I yeah and in other words go ahead I I want to bring this up again in a later scene because I think that this movie doesn't feel faded like this movie doesn't there there are points at this movie where it absolutely could

have gone a different way, had a single decision been made. One of the notes I made is that the sequence, we are jumping ahead now just briefly, but the sequence where there was a choice to be made. Yes. And we all know how that choice goes. What I wrote here is every time I watch this, my whole heart wants Anakin to do the right thing here, which I think is basically the mark of a good tragedy. Every time, I'm like, well, maybe this time.

when I watch it, he's going to choose the other thing. And I know he isn't going to. But I like, I dream of hitting play and having it go the other way. And that, that Hayden Christian is able to get me there and that like the rest of the entire story for all of its faults and all of its warts still gets me to that point in that movie and goes, well, what if this went different is, I think, fundamentally a compliment to what this crew made. Yeah.

I just, I, it's, it's, it's such. to watch that progression and reach that point is so devastating and it feels so preventable. Like it really feels like this whole movie could have changed on a dime. And the rest of Star Wars would be a different franchise. And I think that's kind of what's incredible about this film is how like malleable and kinetic it is in those split moment decisions where if someone had made another choice, maybe things would be different. And it contests the idea of the chosen one and fate.

100%. So well, it's shocking, really, that it does such a good job of that. So I wanted to ask, because I want to get to the, some of the stuff that is going to be sending this up, but does anyone have stuff they want to tackle with the fight with Grievous, the escape from the ship, the crash landing, anything that people want to call out?

There is something that's interesting to me about here here is that like the first scene that we see of Grievous, the first impression that we get of him, is him walking into a room and coughing. And like we don't have the context of that cough. Like if you were watching this

you sort, I know, I'm okay, I was about to say this So if you had seen the 2D clone wars, you see Mace Windu like shatter or like squeeze his lungs or whatever and he quote unquote gets it from there but like if you read

the Wikipedia he didn't really get it from there Mace Windu just made it worse yada yada yada yada but like as someone who's just like sitting down watching this movie and like needing to like have a conception of General Grievous in that moment. It's like super interesting to me that it's like

this is how you know him. Like this is what he is defined by. He's the coughing pseudo-droid guy, right? And the thing is that he's very much conceived of, well, he's conceived of as, again, this is one of the things that shows up in that making of a minute documentary is there's a point where the kind of creature creation crew says, like, hey, here's the thing about the prequels. Every prequel has an apprentice that we had to focus on building.

The first one was Darth Maul, the second one was Count Duku. This time it's this guy grieving. He's a guy we're inventing, and it shows, like, their process for sketching out a bunch of these different variations. And it's like, the variations are not, Lucas did not give them, he's a half-droid, half-organic being. He gave them, there's a guy named General Greaves, or there's a character named General Greer's. He was not even, not even gendered at that point, because there are many women inside of the characters that they handed back, or the designs they handed back. And inside of that set, one person was like, what if there's a droid version? What if there's a droid general, like the general of the droids who was a droid?

And that after getting that concept, Lucas gave notes on that. And that eventually became the half-droid half, or like the super cyborg version of Grievous. And Lucas spun it to be, this is the audience seeing Darth Vader before Darth Vader, right? Grievous is here to foreshadow the transformation to Vader. He's going to have a mechanical body. He's going to have a distorted voice. And you're going to have a very clear vision of his organic parts failing. And that's kind of the cough is in some ways the grievous version of the deep breath that that Vader has.

And I'm of so many minds of this stuff because I think that that is effective. it getting to what it is, but of course the Vader analogy is caught up in so much ableism to begin with, the idea that like the more human parts of your body are replaced with mechanical parts is an allegory for you losing your humanity is fucked. I think so much, what I wanted this grievous to feel like is a grievous at the end of a war, like that had been fighting, you know, for a year. at this point and had finally, you know, come face to face with his greatest adversary. And I just feel like he, I'm glad that we have the Clone Wars to spend more time with

Grievous, to be honest, because it's like, even as an apprentice, he falls short. Like, there's, he doesn't really enact any large scheme other than escorting the, the, the, separatist leaders to Mustafa, right? He doesn't even do that. He's dead by then. Is he dead by then? He's basically their babysitter. Yeah. And what he really is is bait to pull

Obi-Wan away from Anakin so that Palpatine can turn Anakin. Yeah. Right? Like, he gets positioned there so that, so that Obi-Wan can be pulled away from Coruscant, making Anakin more vulnerable to the machinations of Palpatine, because he's seen

that Obi-Wan has a hold over Anakin that could counter him. If Obi-Wan is still on Corrassant when Anakin wants to go to the kind of confrontation with Palpatine, I think that whole scene goes different. Either Obi-Wan goes with him and that changes everything, all the energy

in that room is different, or he managed to keep him with him and says, hey, come with me, help me go do this instead. And that all goes different at that point. And I think that that is it's to your point, Natalie, that like Grievous is just a pawn in this in this movie. He doesn't get to do

He's just a symbol of some shitty metaphor. It's such a shame to that character, especially because, like, there's that place for him to have that development. Because what he ends up becoming is, like, public enemy number one, right? Like, the, like, the lie that Palpatine is saying when the Jedi are like, well, it's time to end. And then we're now. We got Dukukuk. Can we just stop it? He's like, well, no, Grievous is still alive.

So we have to keep doing this. And it's like, Grievous, the now is the leader of the droid army. but all of that stuff just ends up getting like, you know, it doesn't actually lead to real power for grievous in any way. Not at all. Not at all. I'm curious. I'm really curious.

So a thing I know about season seven of Clone Wars is that it happens concurrently with parts of this film. I'm so curious about if we get more grievous there or what. So I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Before, really quick, sorry, before we move off of this initial Palpatine moment. when did why would aniken tell palpatine about the sand people at any point because palpatine is his priest why you know what i mean he um palpatine has stepped into the role that the that the uh jedi council has is unable to because uh aniken fears punishment from them

and palpatine has shown that he will not punish him for being honest about things and so he's gone to palpatine to say, I've done this dark thing, because he knows that Palpatine will validate him and also give him some sort of, will help him work through his feelings on that. So in the past however many years, do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I get that when. I just, yeah. I think that's the role that we're supposed to assume that he's taken by attack of the clones, even, because as he says late in the movie, he's like, you know, I've seen, I've helped,

I've known you since you were a little boy. And I think that he's stepped in. into this role as, again, I say priest, and I kind of mean that, this person that you can confess to and get their perspective on, because Anakin has cut himself off from that, from the Jedi, because he won't tell them about Padma, he won't tell them about the Tuscan Raiders, he won't tell them about any time that he's slipped up, because he's so afraid of reprisal, which he should be afraid of reprisal, but also maybe some reprisal is due. and part of growing up to be like a normal person is like owing up to your fuck-ups and doing your best to like address them with with you know some sort of guidance right allie what are you gonna yeah i mean it's interesting how much like the the the movie the first manipulation this movie right is is telling him to kill ducu and then like throughout that we really see palpatine just hitting like the fast forward button seeing politics close around him because

like oh shit I have to get Anakin on my side I have to move every chess piece to figure out how to separate him from the Jedi Council I don't know where else I was going with that aside that it's interesting where this movie takes us next which is the politics are

closing around everyone really rapidly the minute they touch back down on Coruscant and one thing that jumped out of me is again there's sort of a teasing conversation between Obi-Wan and Anakin Obi-Wan's like, I'm going to go to the Jedi Council

and you can deal with all the politician shit. I don't, you know, that's your punishment. I'm going to skate on this. It's, again, a reminder of, like, the Jedi still not fully accepting how enmeshed in politics they are. This, like, eagerness to abandon the political field to go fuck off to their temple across town

and not be part of the conversation that follows the slaying of the separatist leader, it kind of encapsulates how the Jedi are approaching this entire thing, which is kind of an unseemly job they have to do that's distracting them from their important Jedi Council business and meditations and navel-gazing. And, of course, that does mean that it's going to put Anakin into that political morass where he's not really qualified to be.

he's not temperamentally from an experience point of view he's not ready for it but they just keep letting him do it because he has a good or poor with the chancellor even though they fear it and the other thing that Anakin has to deal with here before he gets into the politics side is he runs into padmay and she has wonderful news because there is nothing nothing that people love more than news about a surprise pregnancy it's just always it's just always a good thing It's never complicated. They were not that hidden, is what I would like to say, first of all. Not at all.

No. The fact that they're like, you know, skirting off behind this pillar in plain sight of like, there are people in the background still, like just chilling, like, vibing in the fucking plaza. These force shaded them. Yeah, they were in the shadows. It's all good. Force cloak. Yeah.

Let's make out. You know. Yeah. Yeah, but I do think this whole section One, I do want to call out Baylor Gana's massive coat Jimmy Smith shows up and has on a coat Of the quality of that meme about big coats And he's fun in this movie

It's fun to have him around. Bail Argana is... He's the MVP after our table. You know what? Yes, you're right. He's a playmaker. He sees the pieces. brings the rest of the team together literally at the end of this movie. If the Jedi hadn't helped end politics in the Republic before he could really take center

stage, he really could have done some stuff. This section of the movie also includes something that I've been waiting for for a little bit and both very glad by and super disappointed by, which is like we finally have Anakin actually reaching out to Yoda for guidance. and Yoda just completely talks past him in a way that's so crushing in being like, yeah, I've been having these nightmares and I'm afraid of losing people. And the one thing that you're having to say being like, the thing that you shouldn't do is mourn people is like so crushing.

I'm 20. It's unbelievable. I think it's worth reading. He, and I can, I just, I'm trying to. to imagine someone from a child from being a child to now 20 something years old um going to someone for help about you know emotional distress and being like this is someone i don't know it just it it boggles my mind that for that yoda's response to anakin struggling with attachment is attachment leads to jealousy the shadow of greed that is train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose

like there's nothing there's nothing there that is actually constructive like i feel like every time anakin is reaching for help or is trying to make himself a part of something good or trying to do the right thing he's being shut out like every fucking time And that's, this is one of the points of, like, Anakin's arc throughout this movie that is, like, one of the shut doors in his face that I feel like leads to his vaterification. And is one of those where I, I just feel like, God, if somebody had just heard him out and had, in. This is where Palpatine comes in, right? Because Yoda shuts him out like this, right? Or really, again, it goes.

back to he can't tell Yoda the thing. He can't bring himself to say, all right, I have been having a secret relationship with Padme and she's pregnant and I'm having premonitions of her dying in childbirth. And I do wonder what's this conversation look like if he can say all that, right? Yeah. Because I immediately think it's more material and it's more specific. And maybe we get a, maybe we get a different Yoder ourselves. Maybe we don't.

The other thing that this is just like completely made me think about, we've not raised this at all, is the like, because I don't think this is any of our wheelhouse. I have some like personal experience here, but not enough to where I would say I'm an expert. But like we don't talk enough about the fact that the Jedi are an order of ascetic monks, of which are real, real orders of real religious, there are real religious orders with very similar beliefs around the denial of sensuous pleasure, the denial of a attachment, the recognition, the belief that attachment leads to suffering. All of that is Lucas just absolutely copying stuff from Hinduism and Buddhism, right, or certain sects of Hinduism and Buddhism. And, you know, the sort of like Obi-Wan as a kind of monk in Hermitage at the beginning of Star Wars New Hope is just like straight up lifted from samurai films that feature spiritual monk warriors who live off in the wilderness, right? Like all of that shit,

and not just movies, but I mean, he was watching movies. but you know what I'm saying, stories. And I do think that it is, I do think that it would be worth our time, not in this moment, but to think about the Jedi and read about the Jedi in relationship to real religious orders in which vows are taken and what the political and personal relationship is to those vows.

Because orders of, you know, practicing monks have historically always been political, have always been tied to politics in a local and a regional sense across the world, not just in Europe or in Japan, but like, you know, the clerical class has always been tied to politics. And I'm curious to think through that stuff at a higher level that is not just our gut response, which is like Western film goer perspective, which is just like, why can't Jedi fuck? And the, like, the answer, one of the answers might be,

it's worth thinking through why there are religious orders where their members take vows of celibacy or not even celibacy, because we know the Jedi can fuck. They just can't have a attachment for hands. But yeah, anyway, I just wanted to raise that because it's been all my mind lately. It's not to shut down the way I feel about the scene,

which is Yoda is cold as shit in this scene. But I am curious about that religious perspective. I think that's such a good point because it's not that I want, like, obviously I want someone to give Anakin a hug because I think he should need a hug. Is it because it's you? You should give Anakin a hug? But also, like, to put oneself in the perspective of holding deep fear, looking to your, you know,

spiritual leader, and asking for help because you are deeply afraid of the fear that you're holding, and you want change, you want to try to mitigate this. want to try and process this and the answer that you're met with is what you're holding is only going to lead you to the dark side like just worst possible scenario like that it's it's it's kind of like this the only thing that i can compare it to in my personal experience is like oh well if you think so those thoughts you're going to hell and there's just like no processing of what it means to hold those thoughts itself It's like not a very sophisticated response from Yoda.

It's a response that doesn't feel like it has millennia of like practical examples of how to guide people for moments like this. Whereas again, my suspicion is if you're in a real religious order, there is lots of conversation around what do you do when you have someone who is struggling with what they've vowed to how they vowed to live and when they have fears that their spiritual path is, is. crumbling. Not every, not every religious leader can live up to this. But this frames Yoda as having no, like, as having zero practical experience guiding someone back onto the path, helping them to confront that fear. It's so dismissive that it actually does, it almost just, it helps to discredit the way the Jedi work. And the idea that the Jedi could have lasted for thousands of years seems hard to understand if this is the best they got when someone comes to them and says, I'm dreaming that someone I love is about to die.

Yeah. It's a really interesting tension, too, because I feel like a lot of the tension throughout the film is, like, the Jedi Order doesn't trust Anakin. Anakin feels that he isn't being, you know, valued by them. And throughout this entire movie, he's holding on to this huge lie. Like, he, if he tells them about the pregnancy, he thinks that he's going to be gone from the order anyway.

Like, this, like, this, like, friction about, like, why won't they make me a master's, like, okay, but in nine months, like, this is going to be a completely different conversation. So it, like, it feels like it's a missed opportunity there to, like, even speak to that tension and instead just have Yoda sort of, like, commit to, like, the Yoda speak and not being able to seat past his own beliefs or whatever. I also think that, like, the, a similar scene that's, like, right after this that relates to that is when Mace Windu and Yoda, and Obi-Wan are in the shuttle talking about Anakin

and Mace Window seeing how he like doesn't trust Anakin and he isn't sure what to do. And the only defense that Obi-Wan can bring to Anakin who's like someone that he loves that he's fought with is isn't he the chosen one and not like, no, I can fucking vouch for Anakin. Anakin's my fucking boy. He says the first thing first instead of actually coming to Anakin's defense. And it's so sad. It's heartbreaking. Do you think that's because that is

where Obi-Wan's head is at? Or do you think that's Obi-Wan reading? Is that Obi-Wan doing what Anakin's doing and saying, I can't speak the way I truly feel about this to them? They won't understand if I say, Anakin is someone who I would trust with my fucking life because they would say that I'm speaking from attachment. I don't know. But it's like, it's Mace Windu that he's talking to, right? Like you would think, you would think with enough history like Obi-Wan and Mace would do would have a relationship right where you could... Mace is worse. I don't know. Yeah.

Mace is worse. Like, the thing that really kind of shocked me about this movie, and I think it starts to come through in the Yoda scene, but definitely comes through in every scene where Mace has to address Anakin in some way, shape, or form, is that the Jedi Council never liked this kid. They always kind of felt he's foisted on them. They were always kind of half afraid of his power. They're kind of backed into this.

by this prophecy that now with the passing of years they're like what does this even mean because i don't like the way this is this is all shaping up but i think one of one of the things that i think is happening in the scene is that well there's a few things for one thing goda isn't a spiritual counselor he's a politician and he is pretend he's like he's very much like a Catholic bishop in the Middle Ages is almost how it feels like he doesn't really want to hear your fucking confession he's got a war to run

he's got a kingdom to rule and so he gives a philosopher's answer to like look just here's our here's Jedi philosophy go here's do it where you will Mace seems to have genuine antipathy to

Anakin personally and so one of the kind of painful things watching this is like, they just don't like him. He's just a kid. Like, he's a kid, he's a student, he needs guidance. And it's not just that they can't give the answers, but even if they were the sort of like,

if there were a friendly parish priest Jedi around who could play that sort of role, they still might not because they just don't click with Anakin. They kind of look at scant at him. Yeah. He's thrown one too many tantrums for them to be polite at this point. Or even, I think a lot about the sequence where Mace Windew basically says

you've given us some good information here if this turns out to be true you'll earn my trust and if instead he had said you just saved the Republic Anakin I'm so like I'm so grateful you came to us with this like I know things have been

rough we're going to go take care of this you've no idea how relieved I am that you trusted us with this how different does the rest of that sequence go but he can't do that he has to still dig at him and say, you'll ruin my trust if this turns out to be true.

I don't trust you still at this moment. I mean, I think the most damning, that's the scene that I was talking about earlier of that being the scene that I think could have changed the course of this movie because I think the worst thing that he does in that moment

is shut, is telling Anakin to stay back and to not be involved. Because here you have someone that you're having, having difficulty trusting you that is obviously struggling in their faith or you know in their in their understanding of what it means to be a Jedi um is clearly very powerful and but and wants to be a part of like Anakin did not have to the fact that Anakin came to the Jedi council and said dude the number

one person I trust you know that this isn't a trap at this point this is the the fear better to You include him, then. Better to bring him along. Because at least you have that supervision. I don't know. At least... I don't know. I think he stabs you in the fucking back. I have no reason to believe.

I have no reason to believe in Anakin at that point. No reason to believe he's not that this is not another manipulation from this Sith Lord who has been dropping us nonstop for years now. Why do I believe that Anakin is not already turned at that point? And I'm not... I mean, this is the trickiness of the stuff, which I think works really well, is also, Yoda is an asshole in that scene. And also, if Anakin does what Yoda says there, then it actually solves the situation.

He just can't do that because he's a human being who has not fully devoted himself to this way of life in a way that Yoda cannot comprehend. Mace Windew cannot bring him in because that trust has been completely spoiled because of years of the Sith having one up on him. And having seen Anakin be a fucking brat who wants to be a Jedi who a day ago sat in the Jedi. council chambers and was like how dare you not make me a Jedi master that's not fair okay you're fucking you're a baby then you know what I mean then though it becomes utterly inconceivable they even attempt what they try to do with Anakin which is look we need you to be our guy oh 100% of the chancellor's office like the the degree to which on the one hand they're slapping him across the face and on the other hand they're like hey you're our inside man you're a donnie brosso you're in

reading this entire thing down around the chance that you just got to trust us. Dumb and shit. And it's just, it's utterly incoherent. Like, it's, it's like they need him and they hate that they need him. And those two things, like, just cause them to adopt the most destructive possible course. They pull him apart morally, spiritually, and strategically, they just end up spinning him in a circle. All of the scenes in which Palpatine is like, using you or 100% right they are 100% using him uh and and he calls them on it i mean also i bet

halftina had another mole inside the jenni that knew about that shit and that's why he could spit game on that um but yeah i i think that that is the biggest misplay that they make in this in this movie for sure yeah i i still think i still think that hit the lack of including him only ostracizes him more you're you're you're you're foisting him on to Palpatine, who's filling his mind. First of all, in one of the deleted scenes, which seems like it would have come... Okay, but those scenes

were deleted, which means they were chosen, we can't refer to those as canon things. So, but they were informing the background of the scene. But at least... Yes, you're right, you're right. At least... Okay, within the movie itself, without deleted scenes, they're already suspicious of a

plot to bring down the Jedi. And it seems like they're already suspicious of, Chancellor Palpatine. Otherwise, why would they be having him followed by... Oh, yeah. Okay. So, it just feels... I... Anna can feel

so abandoned in this throughout this movie. Like, he's just never... For someone, again, we're a year into this war. He has seen countless battles, seen countless people he's

worked alongside as someone that you know has more attachment than other people has seen countless of his clones uh clone army you know be fucking gunned down has seen tragedy after tragedy and and carries the weight of that and he still he he vocalizes his his frustrations with the jedi and his confusion about his role in everything but he's still coming to them because he still wants to be a part part of it. Right. No, I think it's a great moment that he shows up and says that he, I think the thing that

you're, that you're nailing is there is an earlier opportunity for him to betray them and he doesn't take it. And that speaks to the fact that they should have more trust in him, that there is, that he is more trustworthy than they believe him to be, given that he does that. I think that they don't have the access to him that we have in terms of understanding how conflicted he is, that they only see. him in the council chamber saying, this isn't fair, or in Padmay's room, or when they meet Padma in Attack of the Clones, when he starts talking for himself over other people, they don't

have the access that we do to his interiority, because he won't share it with them, because he can't be honest with them, because they're dogmatic and, and inhuman in terms of the ways in which they treat people who, who separate from their dogma. But I, but I also, the thing that I can't come, I think if, I really think that if Anakin goes with them in that sequence, the same shit happens. I don't believe that he shows up to the Palpatine scene, and that breaks different. Palpatine fucking has him. The only way it's different is if Obi-Wan or Padmay are there with him, because those are the counter-anchors. The iceberg of the Jedi Anakin relationship was struck too long ago. They failed him five years ago. They failed him

when they refused to talk about the visions of his mother dying. That's when they fuck that relationship up. You're not wrong about that. I just don't think that. last-ditch effort to include him on the arrest of Palpatine would have gone well for anyone involved except for Palpatine. But again, that's speculation. There are two things that I keep coming back to here, especially, like, from the council's perspective, the only reason that he's on the council is because Palpatine put him there. And that's already, like, a huge tension. It's an elephant in the room. It's something everybody is mad about. So, like, of course, the Jedi Council are going to be taking out of, out on Anakin a little bit, because it's like,

why has this relationship gotten you there? Why does Palpatine want you here? What is really happening here? And can we really trust you? And to the flip side, I think that Mace Windu, like, even being able to verbalize to Anakin that he doesn't trust him in that moment is actually like a moment of compassion. Like, it's not, it sucks. It's

really bad to hear. But like, to be able to be honest with Anakin in that moment to say like, up until this moment I didn't trust you, but like if you've actually helped us with this, then, like, that's going to change this. It's like, cool to me, I guess. Unfortunately, it shakes bad. Yeah, I mean, there are definitely people I wish would have been that honest with me about my relationship with them at this point in my life is what I would say. Yeah. I just can't read it as not being just a one final dig at Anakin. Like, like, this piece of crucial information

that would change the, it confirms all of their suspicions about Palpatine. He's done the job that they asked him to do. He's figured the shit out. Right, but they're not, they're not saying, and now you're not a Jedi. They're saying, let's go deal with this. In Mace Window's mind, this isn't a tragedy.

In Mace Window's mind, they go get Palpatine, and we have the rest of our lives to put right our relationship with Anakin, building off of this trust, this moment of trust that he's given us and that we're taking from him. He doesn't need to be in the fucking room when we face down the most powerful enemy we've ever fought. And his mentor. Yeah.

And his mentor. It's a powder keg. I don't know. I disagree. Don't. If you're in the situation, Natalie, if you are part of a religious order and they say they're going to come kill me because I've turned evil and you're like, that's my mentor, but I need to go with you.

You stay behind and let them come kill me. I'm showing up. gonna fucking throw down for you. Yeah, you would... That's what makes what you was afraid of. Is that you would show up and throw down for... But if... But if I had told them about it...

Okay, so I want to go back to an earlier scene real quick because we talked about Padmay not having a lot to do here, but I think she does have something to do. She has to brush her hair. We get some of the domestic bliss of the Amadala Skywalker's. And again, here's my note Hayden has a genuine

charming befuddled way out of my league energy with Portman the lines and the staging are still terrible but like the part where she's like so love has blinded you

is that what you're saying and you're just sort of like nervous capacity is like no but it's it's really not and it's so sincere that I'm like better lines

I think there actually is a charming dynamic here, but, like, the staginess of her brushing her already, her already done hair. What are you doing? It's, yeah, it's so bad. Her being like, I know exactly where we're going to put the baby. I want to be back on Nabu when we do it. Like, there's other stuff happening.

I, you know, the pregnancy is important. I get it, but, like, you want to talk about the Senate, maybe, you want to talk about the Clone War, you want to talk about General Grevis, like. They're literally giving Palpatine more powers pre-empy. there. And she isn't part of that plot line at all. She is a little bit. There's like, they have that one. It's so funny that they just keep having fights in this movie because it's just like so it's, you know, they're a young pregnant couple. But like there's that moment where she also tries to do the thing that the Jedi Council does, which is like, can you talk to Palpatine? Because he's like on one. And Anika is like, don't you, don't you say that to me? And then she's like, wait, why are we fighting about it? the relationship dynamic is still basically what it was in the meadow where he was like I love fascism and she's like that's cute oh my god I don't even hear that oh I don't think this is this beautiful sound of your voice I love it say it again I love fascism

Anakin I adore you yeah well because she keeps saying and through all these scenes like talk to the Jedi it's time we're gonna have to face this and like figure out a way forward And maybe that means that you're not a Jedi, but, like, we get to be together, and that's really good. She doesn't say those exact words. Like, she is not a fan of, let's keep the secret indefinitely. And he keeps being in that space over and over again, right? That's so weird, because she does take that position, but literally her first line in this movie is when Anakin is like, this is before, she knows she's pregnant, Anakin does it.

And he's like, I don't care if they see me together. And she says, Anakin, don't say that. Like, no, we should actually talk about that. It's great that you say that because, by the way, they're going to have to know about something. I feel like their relationship is so poorly utilized throughout this film in the fact that, like, when Padmey asks, you know, Anakin to, like, check. up on the chancellor she's like have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side what if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists and the republic has become the very evil we've been fighting to destroy and he responds to that I don't believe that and you sound like

a separatist and she's like this war represents a failure to listen now you're closer to the chancellor than anyone please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume now I won't get into Padmae believing in diplomacy solving every problem that could ever exist. But I feel like I've lost the thread of Anakin as like a thinker. Like I feel like... Sorry, the notion of Anakin as a thinker broke me. When he think? What one?

Which thought he had? This is not the, this is not the Anakin of substance I remember from Phantom Menace. No, I, but you know, I just feel like Anakin, Anakin, Annen has doubts and-Anon-an-can has feelings, and Anakin has doubts, and Anakin doesn't, I, he has conflict, and he sees, he sees institution, and he sees, he sees, he sees, he sees the Jedi. I don't know that he sees institution. I think he sees, I think he sees, why don't we help more people. But I don't know that he has an understanding of what the word institution means. Because nobody lets him talk about it. Because every time he starts talking about it, everyone's like, yo, you're being fucking dark side as fuck right now. Stop. And he's like, no, I think you're absolutely right. There is no good political education that he's part of.

I think there's something to this, though, we're like, suddenly he has bought in on this cause of like Republic unification. And he's like, you sound like, you sound like, you sound like, like a separatist. It's like, okay, I guess he's all in on the political project of a strong central republic. This, no, no, this is, this is your weird uncle at Thanksgiving saying you sound like a terrorist in 2005 for having the fucking guts to say that maybe George Bush should dial it back a little. He's just like, he doesn't have, I don't think he, he has a, uh, uh, like a federal project in his mind. I don't think he's like, you can't break up the republic. He's just, Like, these colors don't run.

These colors don't run. But he does say, fuck, where is it? He says that when they're discussing the Senate voting more powers to Palpatine, Anakin's like, this is going to speed up the war. There will be less deliberating. And I just don't understand what other than the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine as like mentor, mentee that I just, I guess, have to take at face value because I don't believe it, but I guess it's just happened over the past 20 years.

What, why does Anakin want that authority? That's the same thing he said in attack of the clones. That's the same thing he said in attack of the clones. That's the same position. He said then someone should have the power to make things happen. He's talking about having someone who has like the executive authority to make decisions by themselves instead of letting it be stowed down by the Senate. But at that point, I understood the, okay, wait, hold on. But at that point, but at that point, I'm thinking of Anakin as someone that lived a childhood of slavery, watch his mom be sold into slavery, watch no one do anything to save them,

watch the Republic not spend any resources to better his life on tattooing, even though they preach, you know, this, you know, this isn't the Republic's law. This seems like not what we do around here. So I get the distress in that and I get why in the Jedi and in his idealized view of an authority figure, it's someone that can

enact change and can do something with the power that they're given. I realize that that can go down a very bad rabbit hole. But I don't understand why it changed when it comes to Palpatine

Palpatine's like I want this war to end and I want everything to just stop and be peaceful and it I don't know I'm like struggling with the I mean the lie that he's telling is the lie that conservatives told America

and that liberals bought in America in the mid 2000s which was if we enable the executive branch to make decisions quickly they can react to on the ground conditions with an efficacy that's unavailable if we put it through the fucking Senate, if we need it to go through a polarized, you know, Congress.

And the Anakin that we've seen, I think, is, I don't, I fully think that Anakin is for, also that was a lie, obviously, right? That was not what was actually happening. That was not shifting levers of power so that you didn't have to engage with the legislative branch in order to change policies. So I just feel like Anakin is exactly. the sort of person who, because of the previous thing that does make sense for the reasons you've laid down, would easily pivot to the master fascist whispering that this is good for him

in his ear and agree with that. But what has Palpatine actually accomplished? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, right? It speaks to the years of manipulation. Like, the two political ideas that Anakin has had reinforced throughout his experience in the Clone Wars is that the Senate is ineffective. They take too much time to make decisions. They're not supporting the people who.

need support. There are people across the galaxy who don't have access to any sort of the care that they need. And then the flip side of that is that Palpatine talks to him and is like, well, shucks howdy, I'm the leader of all of this and I can't do shit. If I fucking had more power, I would just, you know, sign the checks. I would dot the eyes and all of this would be over. And Anakin thinks to himself, yeah, that's, yep, that's a great idea. I also just want to call one thing And then I think I need a glass of water So I'll need to be water

I think something that's hanging over all this This is made in 2005 And I think this is actually before We get on this treadmill As the United States of We just killed the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq We are now chasing the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq Like in 2005 I think we hadn't totally

Like gotten on that bandwagon Like, it wasn't a thing that was like a headline that was happening every, like, three to six months. But, like, Lucas has a feel for it where, like, no sooner. He totally hasn't. Yeah, no sooner is Duku dead. Then it's like, well, Duke it doesn't matter. It's this next guy that we got to get. Yeah.

And we got to redouble our efforts. And so, again, like, in 2005, I think it's worth pointing out, the war was really divisive. it didn't really totally turn in terms of public opinion to like 2006 is when Iraq becomes pretty much toxic and like politically and popular 2005

this is in its context not only it's a little bit pressure most of this stuff is happening concurrently with the film but it is still a little bit brave to be like hey you notice how this is this is what is happening you notice that this isn't going to end do you notice that this is just going to

keep fucking going to you notice how winter lose they're going to say they need power to make this end but we lose just got to give them more powers just got to keep totally you know giving more tools and more weapons to the to the central leader

yeah but I do also remember there being people at the time when this movie came out who were like get these politics out of my Star Wars that like the like this is how democracy ends shit was a hundred percent called out as being like George Lucas is this fucking liberal

Like that sort of shit, a hundred percent happened at the time. So, which. Wow. So Anakin, the thinker, I agree. A lot of conflict, a lot of turmoil. But fortunately, he has that mentor who can shed some light on things. And one of a great teaching tool in a mentor's toolkit is, of course, the illuminating allegory. and that brings us to

the tale of Darth Plague is the wise The tragedy, please Rob The tragedy of Darth Plagius the lies Okay Actually there's more to the scene even before that I have a question which is that Are we supposed to infer From the little smirk and the toad of voice

And the familiarity The Pellotine has the story that he, in fact, was the one who killed Darth Plagius. Oh, there's even more than that. Keep going. What else might be inferred from this sequence? Talk to me, but tell me the tale of Darth Plagius the wise. So, Darth Plagius wants eternal life.

He wants to live forever. He wants power. What he wanted was power. He wanted to be more powerful than anybody else. And the way that he got that was by extending his life and creating life as well. What's the like... Huh. Wait.

Huh. Wait. Are you saying... What's up, Allie? What did you just realize? The immaculate conception of Anakin Skylarker was immaculately created by the dark Sith. Shut the fuck up.

Because Darth Plagius has been dead. Who's alive, Allie? Shut up. Who's alive? No. What if I show you this? No. What if I show you this?

No. I don't show you this. to look at it. That's fucking stupid. There was no father. And then who is this around Schme? What's the natural? What is this ghost? That ghost up top is Anakin projecting himself as he's trying to work through his feelings

about betraying Obi-Wan and the people he loved. This is from Darth Vader-25. I've sent a panel from Darth Vader-25 in which a figure representing the conflicted ego of Darth Vader of Anakin sees his mother being surrounded by a ghostly figure that is Palpatine

seemingly immaculately conceiving Anakin inside of her room but she's already pregnant in this picture but who jacked up that baby with some McLorians this is a highly contested

fan theory that even this comic like people who believe this go like well Darth Vader 25 and people who don't believe it go like well in Darth Vader 25 it was clear that that was disputed and not true so this is one of the two big fan theories that comes out of this movie we'll get to the other one in the future in the future but there is a read that is that Dartsidius creates the knows about the chosen one theory and purposefully schemes to create this person who will be his inevitable, perfect apprentice.

I don't think I'd buy it. No. Partially for the reason I said before. Why would he pitch me? To the, exactly. Yes. Totally. How could he have known?

It is literally the proverbial landmine in the desert. A hundred percent. It's very stupid. Well, because he's, you know, powerful with the force and the force lets you see the future and he saw the future where there was this lady out there and Quigon goes to the planet because I forget why Coigod even went to that planet to begin with, but he sees that future. It's the hyperdrive. He's viewing the hyperdrive in his mind, and he's saying to himself, oh, I got it.

What if Palpatine's like, checks my watch? Okay, it's year six of my baby experiment. Let's send, let's put step two into action, which is send Quigon somehow to Tatooine to encounter this child. This might be fucking true, because the reason that Quigon is on. Tatooine is because he was sent to go talk to the Trade Federation who is being manipulated by Palpatina at this point.

We could work ourselves into a shoot and convince ourselves. I will say the writer and artist of this comic said no, that is not what the fuck we were saying. They said I've gone to this length a few times. No, that is not what the comic is implying. Just no. There's more to read in the comic

than just those two panels which be read in context. I've read the context. I still think you could make that case. I think the more effective thing is the writer of the comic says the dark side is not a reliable narrator. This is a vision from the dark side that is showing Anakin something to kind of cloud his understanding of his origins. And I buy that more. But I do I do think it's, I do think that it's an important theory to at least consider, Rob, were you being wooed by this theory a moment ago? Were you being brought into it? Well, I was thinking about how Vader had a reputation for wiping out the last of the Jedi. But

after a certain point, there's not going to be a lot of Jedi left. And yet there's a curious, like, supply of more force-sensitive people that they have to keep wiping out. True. Almost as if, what if they were seated throughout the galaxy? What if, right, what if Annen was one of Palpatine's children, so to speak? What if Palpatine had been manipulating and introducing more and more? Palpatine ends up, okay, so for instance, we know the person who is with Palpatine

throughout this movie, the kind of bald character. Oh, the one that's at the opera. The one who's at the, right, the gray alien with the bright eyes. Her name is Slime Moore, and she is a quote-unquote senior administrative aid, but actually is secretly a force adept. She has the force. She is another secret Palpatine apprentice that, again, this motherfucker does not believe in the rule of two in any way. She's not a Sith, technically. but like is he out here making making you know little Jedi babies that he can manipulate

here's the thing any theory that further establishes Palpatine as a fucking chaos agent is good in my book because I just think this is like the most like I'm just going to sew my seed all over the fucking galaxy and see what comes up that's the other thing he like in Rise of Skywalker he nuts to death. And he damn near does it here in Revenge of the Sith. I'm talking. Is that how he goes?

That's the way to go. You know what? You know what? It is true. Good for him. Good for him. If he had just been like, nope, I'm done. At the end of Rise of Skywalker, that's true. He does like, I'm still going to take your fucking life or whatever.

Sure. And he doesn't know. Yeah, that's. Yeah. But I, I just think that that's, very palpitini, like, to just go across the galaxy, making, you know, random midaclorean babies all over the world, and then just being like, let's see which one comes back. Like, let's see which one, like, like, yeah, like, who crops, yeah, who crops up later. And just, like, floating them off your island. What's the situation here? Okay, so

imagine for a minute, you're in the general. I counsel right and Obi-Wan Quigon comes back and is like I found this child he's out there the midichlorians are off the chart chosen one for sure completely and then a week later

Quinn boss or somebody else is like yo I was out on you know now Huda or whatever I found this kid miniclorians are off the chart he's definitely the chosen one what do you do so at that point I'm the genetic council

has to reckon with the fact that clearly the celibacy rules or these the no-tashment rules starting to get a little iffy and at a certain point like all the Jedi masters looking at each other like one of you motherfuckers was out there

like getting up to some stuff like just like look if you're not attached it's fine just let us know like are these truly like just midichlorian children or like we'll survive

are our midichlorians genetic though not clear right Right? I mean, I think that prior to the Skywalker lineage, it wasn't really. No, you're, you saying that made it click in my mind that actually, yes. The answer is yes. That like, there are great Sith lines of power, right?

Oh, sure. Where you're like, oh, yeah, my, you're, there's a huge, there's a Sith dynasty and everyone in the dynasty has, has force powers. But at a certain point, do you think that that's, that's, um, um, um, um, um, like appearances though like your great-grandfather was like an incredible Sith master and then because you're his nephew or whatever you can be like yeah I'm I'm sitting on the Sith throne now I'm a Sith guy have him right sure and this is again this is the fucked up thing is that in the Star Wars universe some people just can't do it it is not just a matter of belief you know their motherfuckers out there trying to clean their rooms with the force

trying to lift that broom and they can't do it that would be so tight though so tight. Okay, so I, I, I've decided I believe in it. I, but you believe in our alternate version where this is not a particular, like chosen one thing? You think this is the, you actually, I think, I think he saw the vision. He was like, I'm going to, I'm going to impregnate this woman on Tatween named Shmi. Then I'm going to tell Obi-Wan in six, years that he has to go to tattooing and

it's just I like you think that you think the chess game is on is on point you think this is kind of hearts they're playing the chess game and what the fuck's his name why I blinked on the Palpatineur Zanort yeah this is some Zanort

shit this really is and the thing is I think Zanort is a great comparison here because Zanort is also an agent of chaos and he doesn't need to do as much as he does, yeah, uh-huh.

But he overdoes it sometimes. He overdoes it sometimes. The thing about Palpatine, I feel like he after he puts this first motion into play, the game plays itself. It's like

he doesn't really need to make moves either way. He can kind of just ride this you know cause and effect out to the end Natalie sounds like she's this close to signing up to Palpatine's leadership seminar

I'm gonna lose Natalie If I can do If I can be the mace windew To the Yoda and Obi-Wan Of Rob and Allie here We gotta watch this Watson kid I got I'm getting bad vibes over here

Bro I've been talking about my vaterification Okay I know. I've been up with that. Like the Jedi Council, I've been blind to it. Love has blinded you. Returning to Darth Plagueis. Yes.

I love the scene, though. I really do. The donishness of the way McDarmid delivers his lines. He just loves giving this little lecture. He just can't get enough of telling the story. But even, because it even starts before the story, the whole thing was like remember your early teachings all who gain power are afraid to

lose it even the Jedi and Anakin says the Jedi use their power for good again head empty okay I guess I will concede that Anakin is my head empty king I cannot expect political

theory and thought to come from his fucking one brain cell ass having head and I I will concede that my hymbo king was just he it wasn't even his fault like he really just got manipulated so that just absolves aniken even more of any sin you can love him freely now he also said palpatine is also like good as a point of view the the Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way including their quest for

greater power where we get we get the I guess the Jedi dogma on the Sith here Anakin says the Sith rely on their passion for their strength they think inwards only about themselves and palpatine catches him with the fucking swish dot jpeg and the Jedi don't got him absolutely true and then yes Rob

the tragedy as he delivers it is so good yeah just the whole like the way he just enjoyably like you know as of course eventually he did lose his life

the tragedy the tragedies he could not save himself and it's like that's not what that's not irony and that's not really a tragedy it's just like shit happens you fucking killed him is what happened

and and took his shit I was just to say it's such an interesting thing to frame it as a tragedy Anakin in this moment though right because like really the thing that Palpatine is telling Anakin in this moment is like the pursuit of power

is going to make you a target to other people and when you get this power you were going to lose it and somehow starting the bridge that way gets aniken to like you know what I'd love to be a powerful person and to like see the play be successful from that first you know step is really interesting but that's not what gets him so this is the thing yeah and this is the this is the thing that drives me nuts about the devil's bargain Anakin ends up making he hears just as a subplot as a rumor that the Sith can defeat death.

He doesn't give a shit about the power, except the power of life and death. He doesn't, he doesn't even check the fine print. He doesn't even check like, hey, it wouldn't be like, zombie, like. It's not even like, what about pregnancies? He doesn't even say, what about, what about a pregnant, what if someone dies in childbirth? Is that covered? I, yeah, that's an amazing point, Rob, because, like, especially, like, the, like, the, like, the innocence of Anakin in the moment, especially when Mace Windew is fighting Palpatine,

where he's like, you can't kill him, I need him. And like, what Anakin believes in that moment, that, like, they're going to arrest Palpatine and then, like, in jail, Palpatine is going to teach him how to make sure Padman never dies. Like, what's the endgame here? Yeah. Really. Like, what do you really think it's going to happen? This also brings up something that both Natalie and you both ID'd coming into this, which gets to another theory.

I think both of you mentioned this was the bit about Palpatine knowing the vision, knowing that, that was that one of you or am I making this up, that Palpatine knows about the visions that Anakin is having and talks about it despite Anakin having never said it to him. Anakin never says to Palpatine, hey, I've been having these visions of my wife dying in childbirth, but Palpatine absolutely says, hey, this can save Padmae at a certain point. And here's my other theory, what if Palpatine is putting those nightmares into Anakin's mind? Oh, sure. That's actually a thing that I wanted to bring up, because like there's that there's that moment where Anakin is waiting for Mace Wendu to do whatever Mace Wendu is doing. And it seems like Palpatine is like force talking to him, which is interesting because

I think it's the first time in this trilogy of movies that we've seen like force communication across a distance like that. As far as I don't remember that. When is that? What is the... Anakin is sitting alone and he's like looking at the Senate like throughout the windows or whatever. And you hear Palpatine's... voice saying, you know, I'm the only one who's going to be able to save her or whatever.

Or something along that line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, is that Palpatine speaking to him in that moment or is it Anakin, like, perceiving a conversation otherwise? Like, I, it's cool to me, you know, I don't know the depths of Palpatine's power at this point. Yeah. I deeply wonder about. how much

and I I think it's so I don't think there's really much grounding in the movie at all but how much is there a forced influence from Palpatine

on Anakin and I feel like it's just something that we cannot know because in the Duku scene like it's always Palpatine egging him on in the

in the Duku scene consistently throughout that fight, Palpatine's like, yeah, yeah, get him, get him. Yeah, he's almost like barking throughout that fight. He does. It's really unsettling. It's really unsettling. I love it.

Yeah, it's really fucked up and creepy. But I think that ambiguity is intentional, right? The ambiguity of when Palpatine says, do it. Is that a force push in the, is that the Jedi mind trick, like influencing him? Or is it just the force of personality? And that is, I think the ambiguity around that is important to maintain in the same way that the ambiguity around Anakin's birth is important. It's making something. Like, it is, the core of the drama here is, is Anakin so far gone that he can't be saved?

To what degree can he turn from this path? And the question of whether he is being mind controlled or if this is just who, he is and where the responsibility lies and why he's become the way he is, to what degree is that fallen Palpatine versus on the Jedi versus himself. That's the story of many great tragedies, right? Where does the blame lie is a motivating engine for drawing me into any tragic figure because there's part of you that wants to root for the person to overcome that stuff and who wants to push blame off. There's part of you that wants to hold them accountable and say, like, no, you've wound up there. And I think that the,

fact that it's hard to tell where the ways in which the force is a weapon used against him versus is just a carrot that he's being led to is really fascinating and like I think that that's part of why the scene is so good is because Palpatine has like the carrot of all carrots here like do do my shit and you get mastery over this thing that you care about I again like you said he jumps to a lot of conclusions about what this power actually looks like but You know. Also, also, does he use this power? Does he actually figure out this power to keep himself alive long enough for Palpatine to show up and save him?

Is a normal person killed on Mustafa when they catch fire? I, yeah, I don't know. Is it the force of hate in him for Obi-Wan that, like, maintains his life in the same way? No, I- No, but I mean, it's not a technique. it's the raw power of hatred and the dark side, you know? I feel like I want to push back on that because a moment in this movie and like really the tragedy of that scene is that Palpatine is able to sense before that moment that

Anakin is in pain, that he is hurting, that he needs to be by his side. And the only person that we actually legitimately see rush to Anakin's side of this movie, besides Padme sort of, is Palpatine. And, like, that is gut-wrenching. But speaks to their connection. So. Yeah, true. Okay, so we've been playing a little fast and loose with chronology here because after the opera scene, we do have the scene where Palpatine goes fully mask off to Anakin.

And because Anakin isn't so good at reading subtext, like, the opera scene didn't quite fully get through to him. Palpatine just needs to say, yo, I'm a Sith. I can help you with your problem. because he said it in so many words at the opera and Anakin was like but the Jedi are good and so Palpatine just has to get more direct just has to be a little bit more like look kid

I'm a Sith all right I can help you and Anakin immediately is still enough of a Jedi loyalist and still enough of someone who's bought in on this war against the separatists to realize that like this is bad and it pisses him off and Palpatine is frantically

trying to kind of take ownership of Anakin's feelings in an interesting way. He says, like, you want to kill me, don't you? Or something like that. And Anakin is like, yes, I do. Which is a correct and good feeling. Like, he should, probably justly, want to take this guy down. Like, to his credit, he doesn't just, I mean, you know, Palpatine says, like, my mentor taught me the ways of the force, tell me everything about the force. And Anakin understands pretty quickly, but we can put it together between this scene and the talking to Mace Windy scene that not only is Palpatine a Sith or a Dark Force user, he is like the Sith Lord, we have been chasing. He like uses those words. He completely puts it together.

And we are proud of him. Yeah. We love sweet. Good job, Anakin. He did it. It took the villain monologue at you multiple times. Well, you know. Yeah.

Anakin, he's got a baby on the way. He's got a lot on his mind. Extremely on the way, days away, we should note. Somehow. And I think this is actually, this whole scene does remind me that one of the things Palpatine is doing quite insidiously, one might say, is he is trying to take really natural feelings that Anakin is having and recasting them as moral transgressions that have already taken him down the Sith path. I'm thinking to, this scene does echo in some way. what happens after he kills Duku, where note that Anakin seems slightly puzzled or like slightly disassociated from his decision to kill Duku. He's like, I shouldn't have done that.

And this isn't like, now admittedly, he's a very different actor, it's a very different scene. This is not like after he killed all those Tuscans where he does really reckon, he knows what he did, he knows why he did, he knows the feelings that inspired it, he still feels them. Here he feels a little bit like I don't fully, I just did that thing I shouldn't have. I don't know fully why I just did that or what just happened.

And again here when Anakin is sort of reckoning with his anger at what Palpatine has done, Palpatine is saying the fact that you feel that by your own logic, Anakin, you are refuted as a Jedi. You're already a Sith and Spirit. But also, he pulls on it to save his life.

he said by bringing up that feeling of guilt that he knows Anakin has about Duku he's he is it's almost like he's flipping that energy back around on him to make him put his lightsaber away right so you know what we you have to go to jail we have to bring you to justice has to happen here now you're right I'm not going to do the thing that makes me feel guilty which is immediately enact violent justice because I can associate it with these two other times in my life that I've done that that make me feel bad. I would again say that maybe killing all of the Tuscan Raiders in that tribe, much worse than killing Count Dukyu and infinitely worse than if he had just dropped

Palpatine at this moment. Right. And I think Anakin, there's a difference in Anakin's, like, post-murder persona. Like after attack of the clones when he kills the Tuscan Raiders, he's. He's, like, clearly distraught, clearly has no idea, like, as if he were, like, in a blackout rage, just, you know, rampage through that village. And then he comes back and he's just like, you can tell he's trying to process what he's just done against, like, his spiritual beliefs, his upbringing, everything. after he kills Duku, he's like, yeah, I shouldn't have done that. But it almost comes off more like a, I probably should have taken this guy in and like done the whole justice thing.

I think Palpatine is like weaving this false, has been weaving this false narrative of like, look at all of your transgressions. You've already been destined down this path. You've been walking down it before you even realized it. Now it's just the power is sitting there for you to claim it. Like, you've already done all the work. And you can just go have it. It's right here. Specifically what he promises him is like,

you need these qualities to be a great leader, which is interesting because, like, I don't know that that's what he wants. I think that's a misread, which is why things get so dicey for Palpatine in this moment. What he wants in this moment is his wife to live through childbirth for validation from the mentors that he has in life. But I don't think that he has, you know, again,

we've seen fascist Anakin who talks about how things should be run. And I guess by the end of this movie, he does start to frame things as help me overthrow Palpatine and we can try to rule things together. And that becomes a Vader like Kinnard going forward throughout the rest of the series. The like, we could overthrow the emperor and do this ourselves. as like a classic vaderism.

But at this point, I don't know that he gives a fuck about being a good, strong leader. He cares about the people he loves living. I think you're right. Yeah, there are also like moments with Anakin where like he even seems confused by his own ambitions. Like the points where we see him sort of struggle with what he's going through, there's like a moment when he's talking to Padme and he's like, I want, the Jedi Council does respect me. know that I want more, but I don't know why I do. And it's seeing him struggle with that is interesting.

And I wish that we had seen more of like what it actually meant for him to take a life again post the Tuscan Raiders with Dugu. Because I feel like, you know, in this moment, especially like post-war being pregnant, I guess, that's another part of it that's like I'm capable of doing this twice, right? I was pushed to this. I wanted to do it. What does that mean for me? I wonder how much of that is informed by being told that he's the chosen one, his whole life.

Like, he, there's such a high expectation placed on him of the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy that, like, of course there's going to be some sort of like leadership and responsibility that is attached to being the, someone that is meant to bring down the Sith, but it doesn't really seem to be in line with what Anakin really, like he doesn't, he's not often, he wants to be involved, but he doesn't necessarily want to be leading something. He just wants to be there and be able to do something about it. And I think he sees that only the people in leadership positions are able to act, on their own volition, whereas, like, him as, you know, either a Padawan or a Jedi Knight

doesn't, is still having to answer to someone, and that's maybe why... I think there's that. I also think, we've talked about this, but, like, he wants the validation, and it's only through the recognition of himself as, like, a Jedi leader, like, this is why the council position matters so much to him. He wants validation from his adoptive family. He wants to know that they've accepted him. And there is no way for him to really know that's true

unless he gets the status accorded to, like, a high-ranking Jedi. And so I think this is one of the places where the disconnect comes in. He doesn't want to be a leader. He doesn't want to be a ruler of the Jedi Council. He wants to be one of them. He wants to feel like he fits with them. And this is sort of the vulnerability in his psychological makeup, where they recognize he's not ready for that responsibility.

They don't recognize that it's being driven not by a hunger for power, but a hunger for like respect and a feeling of being trusted. I think that reinforces why I feel like Anakin's exclusion is one of the worst things that happens throughout this movie is because it's exactly that. It's misunderstood as a desire for power and, like, ownership of the situation, whereas all along he wanted just to have a part in it and just to be able to be one, I don't know, just to be a part of it. I mean, this is why that scene with him and Obi-Wan telling Obi-Wan goodbye, which we kind of skipped over here, because that happens in between the opera scene and the second scene, where they have been. maneuvered apart from each other, but that is the one glimpse of inclusion and pride and validity

that is given to him. That seems like a surprise to him. When Obi-Wan tells him that he is proud of him and the Jedi he's become and that like he wishes other people could kind of see that and that give it time, Anakin, like people will see that. And Anakin says, I've been arrogant and I apologize for that. Like, that's it. That's the bright light of the future that could have changed everything in this universe is if that conversation happens earlier, it happens more often, or if it happens and then Obi-Wan doesn't go off to go chase down General Grievous and instead is around for the rest of what happens on Corrassan. Pulling Obi-Wan off the board just when he's finally willing to do that outreach is the master stroke here. He's the only one

that's going to vouch for Anakin. And without Obi-Wan, Anakin is lost. I mean, the immediate following scene is him coming to Padme and saying, Right. I have this desire for more power, but I don't know why. And I'm lost. That scene Allie was talking about earlier. It's also the Obi-Wan's been here, hasn't he seen? Yeah.

I wasn't going to say that part, but... That's another prevalent fan theory. That's the other big fan theory. What? That Obi-Wan and Padma are fucking. Oh. What? That so much.

And again, it's a thing that's been developed in the, comics, not even that they are, but that this is an anxiety that Anakin has, that there is an intimacy between Padme and Obi-Wan that he does not have access to or control over, that there are conversations he's not party to, and that they don't trust him, and they trust each other more than either of them trusts him. I mean, that's pretty explicit in this film. Yep, uh-huh, 100%. Yeah.

So it's not a far, it's not a far stones throw from, does he think that they're having an affair? Does he believe those kids are even his? Right. I mean, but there it's the classic problem of he is becoming a troubled partner. And she's reaching out to the person who is best positioned to reach him. And he's reading that as like intrusion into his personal life, whereas actually it's support. I want to talk about the removal of these key pieces from the board. Let's talk about Oudapau real quick and Kashik.

First of all, the aliens from Dark City and the aliens from Dark City need your help. that that dude's face with the lines is sick i wrote his name down in here somewhere his name is tian madon which is also a great name it's one of rick ross's many aliases um so obiwan has to head to udapow to bring down general grievous who the rumor is the clone intelligence network has found out that general grievous is up there you know clones but they're they're far reaching uh sources of human intelligence because everyone just likes to talk to clones They know people

They've been alive for 20 minutes I was just about to ask If there were any like cloned spies That I was like they all look the same You can't do that You literally cannot do that Oh no I'm a wealthy industrialist from Corellia I'm

Well you could do You turn on your webcam fuck It's one of the deleted scenes is like all of the clones one of the deleted scenes is all of the clones at the Jedi temple Obi-one and Yoda are coming back to the Jedi temple and all of the clones

are just wearing the hoods and they're like welcome back and fucking what's up clones like you guys suck as Jedi die die die like time you know so

So, obiwan gets off the ship and is immediately told, like, Grievous is holding us all hostage, which I'm not entirely sure. Grievous knows that this is all big, like, ambush. Like, he's setting up to, to fight with Obi-Wan. I can't, I couldn't work out of the Udipowans, whatever they are. I don't know if they were in on it. I don't think so. I think they seem scared. Yeah, I think that dude genuinely seems shook about the occupation. Yeah. Did you catch Obi-Wan's cool steampunk? The droid? Yeah, it's wild that it's like a bronze and copper-looking thing. It looks all right. I don't go in for steampunk often, but it looks good. I'm that droid.

It looks good. We need more astromax done in like brush metals, oil metal. I feel like this is high republic stuff. If we ever get to those high-republic books, that feels like what the vibe is there. God, yeah. I do have to say this droid is a little forgettable next to Obi-1's dog shout out

to Obi-1's dog shout out to Obi-1's dog who can't shut the fuck up it's the best I love this thing

it's so good this is the thing I forget what episode it was that we recorded now but at one point someone was like are there

are there animals in Revenge of the Sith and I was like oh there's absolutely a memorable animal in Revenge of the Sith Oh I vaguely remember this

love this fucking guy are they setting up there, how Obi-Wan is going to become a natural in the deserts of tattooing? I think so, a little bit. Animal calls. Yeah. The thing I love is, like, who's good with machines, who's good with planes and jets and space fighters, Anakin? Who's good with animals and, you know, people that he's not met before, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

That's the split. Right. Yeah. 18th century explorer, Obi-Won. Yeah, 100%. Yes. A naturalist. A naturalist. He's got such strong naturalist energy.

Oh, he does. Naturalist as in the science, scientist of nature and philosophy of nature, not nudism naturalists. No. He's definitely got like formal pith helmet in his closet somewhere. Oh, yeah. Big time. But here's the thing. I find the whole showdown on Udipa,

a little bit forgettable. We get a lizard chase with a fleeing General Grievous, but like this is all end game stuff. I didn't, like, this all seems like a very long setup for a joke that is,

the punchline comes when he finally kills Grievous with a blaster. This entire sequence feels like, man, this was a long wind-out. Grievous deserves better than this. That was, that was, I like this chase sequence, fine. It's all right.

It's not good, but it's all right. I like Grievous's rolling tire vehicle that first. Actually, it gallops first, and then the legs go away, and then it starts rolling. Very Grievous-like. Yeah, all my Victory Gundam heads out there. This is nobody. Shoutouts to Duker Eek and the Einrods, which are just these, but a giant mech pilots them instead of a Greaves.

I guess Grievous is sort of like a mech in many ways. So But yeah I think you're right, Rob This stuff There's bits of that fight That I like I like Obi-Wan trying to punch

And kick him And be like, ow My hand hurts That stuff is cool They're all him buzz Yes How does how does How does Grievous get the fire

Situation? Because I remember seeing that And being like Damn I think he just Get shot in the chest With a blaster Yeah

No Obi-Oiwan Pries open his chest cavity That is the thing he does And then he just shoots him in the chest. But also, again, like, it could just be someone involved in concepting the scene and was like, you know, this movie doesn't have enough who framed Roger Rabbit in it at this point,

and I just need a real, like, what if, like, fire blew through his eyes and, like, steam came out of his head, huh? Because he's a droid. The other thing that we get here is a line from Grievous where he says that he's been trained in the Jedi arts by Count Duku, which, again, is extremely funny in a post-Berwai in Clone Wars world. Because like, yeah, we've seen your relation with Count Duku. One, he hates you. He's like constantly nagging you. He ain't trained you in shit. Two, Obi-Wan knows this by now because we've seen, we know that they have been fighting each other

on and off for what must feel like years. It's interesting in that regard because like the relationship we get in Clone Wars is Ventris is constantly like, yeah, Duku trains me. I know what Duku's shit is. Grievous is just out there with some lightsabers on his own. yeah yeah totally I like the grievous is out there kind of proving that like it's not even clear is he force sensitive doesn't matter he's good to the lightsabers

and he's better at it than most Jedi because he's like learned how to use it and combine it with like his own fighting style and his droid essence and the Jedi just don't they don't have four arms doesn't matter how good you are with the force you don't have four of these

yeah or a cool little tummy blaster I gotta say the droids in the sequence look really good like the assassin droids look fucking sick as fuck and like they just they look so nat like when you see the like you know uh pawn droids in the background just kind of standing around they look so natural and good it's really I just can't get over how good they look for like a 16 year old movie or whatever right right the animation and the

lighting is like progressing by leaps and bounds over the course of this series and like here it's like i bat like it's weird like in the earlier movies i think the cg is often a weakness and here i'm like damn we get these actors out of here and just i think it's where george kind wants to go too where he's like to him and just because george's real issue is not with the technique of shooting actors, he's just bad to directing actors because he's an awkward dad. Like, he's just an awkward, strange man who just doesn't seem comfortable

giving set direction, but then tries to use technology to make up for that in post. Right. I mean, this is the thing that's so wild about these movies is, like, what we're seeing is the invention of the contemporary blockbuster over the course of these three films. And for better or worse, like, these are the movies that fucking did that,

along with, like, Lord of the Rings, which is also coming out at this point in time. Which is such a fascinating like comparison between those films and the techniques that they did, but also, like, Peter Jackson knows how to fucking get performances in a way that Lucas just does not. And at the same time, I think that they are both, they are also both politically such different works. Never has good and evil seem more clear than in Lord of the Rings. Never has it seem more murky here where no one involved is making the right choices throughout Revenge of the Sith.

You know, right, right. Though neither, though neither, just to be clear, Revenge of the Sith does not say that there are not moral bads. It is not a morally relativist work. Lucas believes in evil. He just believes it's not so cleanly embodied or cleanly beaten through embodiment, maybe. It is embodied in this case in Palpatine. Right. But what Palpatine immediately does is invest it in a bureaucracy, invest it in policies and infrastructure and

capital through the creation of clones, through the creation of technologies, et cetera, right? And that's pretty distinct. I guess maybe that's not that distinct from what Soron does. No, I think about it. So, it's just, Soron makes orcs instead of clones, which, you know. Yeah, but he doesn't make the orcs work for the elves for like, right, yes, yes. A year or whatever. Star Wars timeline, don't worry about it.

No wonder, no wonder people yell at me and friends at the table getting timelines line's all fucked up, and no wonder I fuck him up, because I grew up on Star Wars. There's nothing better than a one-year war. Come on. You know what? Thank you. Bless. Bless up. So, meanwhile, Yoda's got to go to Kashik, because the wukies also need his help. And he just gets along best with them. Although, the wukies seem like they will hang with anyone, so I don't know that, like,

Yoda has to be the, like, if you're there to help the wookies, then they'll be down to like, hey, let's kick some ass. Also, I did not realize this until the end, but one of the wiki commanders that he's working with is Chubaca. Yeah, young Chubaca, young Chooey. Because, God forbid, this universe be anything but, like, smaller than an elementary school. So here's the one thing I'll say about this is God bless Peter Mayhew, and they thought this is the last Star Wars movie. I've been watching all the featureettes, and when they talk about these movies, everyone involved from Lucas and John Williams down to the script supervisor and the stunt coordinators are like, well,

this is the last Star Wars movie. So we really wanted to make sure we got this right. And so this is, this feels so much like Peter Mayhew, who got to play Chubba, who was Chubaca in the original trilogy, let's fucking get him on screen. Let's get him on the fucking set. We're shooting some stuff in England anyway. Let's get him. Let's get him on screen. And that to me, you're right. It's stupid that Chui fought in the Clone Wars. But I'm glad they got to bring, the same way that C-3Pio has to show up. But C-3Bos had the chance to show up now throughout all of these movies.

Chooey, the actor who played Chooey did not get to come through. So I'm glad he got his day. That makes a lot of sense. And what a day it is. It's the Omaha Beach scene, but with droids. and Tarzan yells. Why? Why did they do this? Why? It doesn't even...

How... I'm sorry. Your vines just let you swing out over the bay to jump on these landing craft that are coming from the ocean. This is why the wookies are such an important ally. Because they are vine magic? way into space. They're really, yeah. All my favorite vines were made by Wookieies. Back out of it again at Krispy Kreme.

Tarzaniel. Someone cut the Tarzaniel into my favorite vines, please. Oh, my God. Also, Wookies, you had prepared defenses on the beach. Why are you countercharging out of your trenches onto the open beach where their ships can shoot you? Just let them. come for Christ's sake

We needed Commander Rob Zackney out there It's just It's Rob was there It's all really on different Austin to your point about this The birth of the modern blockbuster

You're right Everyone's got to charge and counter charge Because we nothing seems epic Unless both sides just running at each other Even if it makes no sense Even if we're like The Wookiee seems safer If they just stay behind that berm they dug

I mean this is the thing though Is like two towers had come out Two years prior to this or whatever and that ends with a more traditional siege and it rules right so like the proof there's proof out there you can do like the fortification is being charged i just don't know that lucas has those chops yeah but also in the return to the king they do end with a big old like charge and counter charge type thing which sucks because in the book of course they hold up on the on the twin hills and and i'm just trying to like outlast the army of the of the shadow and they're bailed out by the combination of the eagles and the destruction of the one ring but they use decent like convincing tactics of like how you defend a mobile column uh that like is consistent with what we know of tactics of the time we need to to exhume the corpse of tulking and set him down with a war at a warhammer table with george lucas and have them combat each other to see who has a better a better handle over

uh strategic and tactical probably the guy who fought in world war one which one was that again is that George, let me explain you how trenches work. Let me explain how they're useful. Absolutely not. George, let me explain to you how trenches work. Tolkien, let me explain to you how the West is full of war criminals. Pastoralism can redeem it, though. So we've got,

so there's a narrative purpose. We've got to get Yoda and Obi-1 off the board. this is Palpatine's trick. But also, the other purpose that we're going to serve is we need these Jedi that we care about, that we know, their characters, to be fighting alongside their clones at this pivotal moment of the movie. The real purpose of these scenes is to get Yoda and Obi-Wan off with clone troopers doing the last of the mop-up operations in this war so that the next stage is both personalized and we see how they do not share the fate of the rest of the Jedi.

So this leads us to, like, Anakin goes to Mace Window, they have that conversation. And now we got the arrest scene, or what's supposed to be an arrest scene, and yet again, the Jedi disappoint. It's a cool scene. Oh, wait, really quick. We all, before it actually happens, we get, like, three minutes of Anakin and Padmaid looking towards the other person across the cityscape as the sun sets. feeling like shit is about to break bad.

And that scene totally worked for me. And I didn't think it would. It's really good. But it rules. They're just like, the vocalizing kicks in. Will Phil Collins would have really made it. Someone dropped the Tarzan theme in here, please. Just imagine, like, that one scene, Michael Mann shoots it.

And it's just, like, in the air tonight. And then scenes of, like, like, Anakin driving around in his convertible around Corrassan And, like, her walking around her apartment. Oh, this is chef kiss. Yeah, that would be great. So then the arrest. The arrest. It's cool at first.

It's, like, the Jedi are here to take care of business. Unfortunately, Mace brought the wimpiest Jedi in the entire council. Yeah. What is it clubberlang calls Rocky? Like a fake champ or something like that? Like a paper, like a paper champ or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what the Jedi Council Jedi are.

Yeah. And it's not, we know, we, we only know one of the people here with him, but it's Kit Fisto, right? And Kit Fisto is not a punk. Kit Fisto, okay, it's Kit Fistow, it's Agin, Kolar, and it's Sacy Tien. I don't know, I don't know them at all. But Kit, sorry to that. But Kit,

we've seen putting work. Palpatine was done. The powerful guy. Yeah. I, I, I,

I, this, I don't like this because I don't like that Palpatine is like, there's no, there's no, like,

recognition, recognition of craft and mastery here. And it doesn't even feel like Palpatine is this raw, powerful being that can just, like, I don't know. He loses his fight. He loses his fight. Yeah. He does the fucking M. Bison shit. He corkscrews.

He corkscrews fucking flips towards them. That shit rules. That shit. Does it? Yeah, but like, the picture of power that we have of Palpatine before this is so different that, like, I, I don't feel a satisfaction, being able to be like, oh, well, he's all so fucking sick. He can do a sick flip, too. Like, I like this sequence more than the upcoming Yoda one.

So if I had to only have one or the other, it's this one. I'm a hundred percent. I think I'm Yoda. I hate this one so much. It's corny as shit, dude. All right, I'm going to explain to you, by the time we're done discussing that scene, you guys are like, I love it. It's my favorite scene in Star Wars.

Prepare yourself all right. I'm waiting. Godspeed with you. A fucking sick window explosion doesn't happen in it. They don't have the coolest single shot in this whole movie. So it's going to be hard to win. They throw pods, though, and it looks cool and big. Yeah, okay.

We'll talk about it in approximately 40 minutes. Either way, we're left with the situation that the Jedi once again showed up to a lightsaber fight. with lightsabers, but they weren't actually good with using them. So Palpatine just like, like, ices the entire crew except for Mace. Who then wins the fight? Who then does show off and show up and like do a cool kick to his face? And he's like cowering in a corner on the windowsill.

And then Anakin bursts in. Yeah. And Anakin's like, we need to bring this guy to jail so that he can save. says that first. Mace does say you're under arrest, my lord. Yeah. So he does, he at that point is not at the, we have to kill you stage. That develops

as Palpatine reveals how much stronger he is than Mace thought he was, I think. Yeah. Where this encounter is not going to end unless one or the other dies. Is it the force lightning that changes the equation that reveals to Mace, like, oh shit,

this isn't like junior Sith shit. Yeah. This is this guy is too dangerous to, like, leave this room alive. Like, we are, because there's almost a end of Chinatown. He owns the police type thing happening here. We're like, politically, which is true, by the way. Like, what do you do with this guy? Right.

But also, at this point, we see Palpatine literally the mask fall off, basically, and he turns into, you know what? I didn't like it at first, but here's the thing. This is George Lucas doing a pretty decent horror movie. And that's what this whole scene has been. four Jedi walk into a haunted house are immediately like killed by the monster and the flesh rots off its face and you see this really fucked up like prosthetic like toad-like aspect with weird little mannerisms like very Hannibal Lecter I like it when it's happening I like as it drains away I think it looks good in those moments the posts reveal of it is a little harder to swallow still when he's just sitting there like Hey, I like his little croaks. I like that stuff.

It's unsettling and weird, and it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel powerful in the way we think of power. It feels powerful in this way that's, like, undercutting, like, and revealing what his actual, like, interiority is. And that's, that's what I like about it. It feels like the facade has fallen, and he is just a little frog man who sucks. I think this actually started to bring me around to... I think I've talked a few times about, like, it bothers me that Palpatine is nealism incarnate. Here it started to work for me.

It's like, Dukhu had a worldview. He thought it was like, we have a mission. Anakin, I think, end of day, might also believe that at least somewhat. And I think we'll get to it at the end of the movie. But by the end of this movie, he's going to realize that he is enthralled to a guy who literally just wants to watch suffering like consume the galaxy and that was never what aniken was all about and now he's just kind of like owned lockstock and barrel by that guy but like i think kind of here two things have kind of changed

for me one is that i think over the last couple years i've started to realize that nealism is totally compatible with fascism in fact in many cases might be a necessary precondition for his modern incarnation um and so parts of the palpatine character and like his mission that didn't make sense that i was like no people want power for reasons i now kind of realize no people just sometimes want power just to fuck up people they perceive as their enemies and like just to use it through spite um and dark city is saying looking at the iPad and saying and I took that personally And two, this Palpatine is so gross. It's like, oh, yeah, okay.

This is a real nasty character. And you can sort of see why this guy just sort of like lurks in the shadows and is a distant, unseen presence behind the empire. Because the reality is gross. Like this is probably not something that a lot of like the imperial officers you're going to meet. Like they're probably not intimately familiar with who this guy really. is this sort of like rasping like toad like uh pure spite goblin um that's accurate but even though it's clearly now written on his fucking face that this guy's bad news all it takes

is for him to be like no anna can leave say me i can say padmay when has he ever shown that he can do that. If you're going to make a deal with the devil, make him show that he's selling real goods. Faust at least sees Marguerite. Like, I am pretty sure. Like, it's so, it's so frustrating. It just, it supports how completely vulnerable

and, like, just open for the taking Anakin is. because he he's so desperate he's just completely desperate and wants anyone to hold on to to to to guide him anywhere he's so fucking lost is the one thing that he said constantly throughout this movie and as things progress in in the last one is that like the one thing he needs is like anyone to just be like Like, this is what you should do. Do it here. Yeah, but you got to be a fucking adult, too. Like, and he has people. He has a droid best friend. He has, and he has Obi-1 Canobi who are, like, he has people.

There is no one who can enter your life to make it as easy as you want it to be. Yeah, but what if every single one of those people who support you every time you try to talk to them was like... What did fucking Padme ever do? Padmae does not deserve that. Artu does not deserve that. Okay. Art2, yeah. Artu and Artu and Padme.

I think Padmae is a legitimate Like Two real ones is more than most people get Three real ones because he does have This is the other thing He also does have Palpatine all this time It's not like he doesn't have someone to vent to It's just that the person he has

Is the most manipulative person in the galaxy Yeah Probably still get some good advice I bet he did I'm sure there were some times And he was like Now let me tell you about About balancing your checkbook

Or whatever Like that probably helped out I actually want to, there's a counter reading here that I want to put up. I'm not like counter readings. I think you're 100% right in terms of that is what he's motivated by. He does want that. I'm not saying you're wrong about that. I'm saying he's wrong to think that that is all, that that's the only lack he has or something like that.

The thing that I want to actually put up is up until now, Palpatine has been the one person he can be true to. He can go to Palpatine and say, here are the sins I've committed. What do I do? And Palpatine says, those weren't sins or, hey, the Jedi are hypocrites too. They make mistakes and pretend they don't. Or that's just part of being a person. You shouldn't push down your passion. That makes you a good Jedi or whatever he says there.

The second this happens, the second that he lets Mace Windu fucking get got by Palpatine and tossed out the window and has now helped Palpatine's final rise to power, this is that same guilt again. he now has this new sin that he can't go to anybody with anymore because the person he was going to with his sins, the priest in his life, was Palpatine. Yeah. And so now he's also lost that. And now he's like, he has deceived himself into a position where he can't see an escape valve and he can't see a route out. And so I think he acts out of guilt for the immediate next little bit. And then what he does after this, I think, is the thing that finally pushes him all the way over, right? You do enough terrible things out of a sense of guilt and obligation and feeling stuck until you adopt that behavior as who you are.

And also, this is a galaxy where, like, morals are metaphysical and true and doing bad things shapes you into more and more of a bad person over time. So, you know, he kind of puts him immediately to work towards that end. The spin that Palpatine makes immediately after this is so strange to me. where like I get that Anakin has already turned at this point but that he's immediately like well the Jedi are against us and they're going to kill every senator so you have to go to the Jedi temple and kill all of them

is like such a lie that it feels so outside of what could be believable I think Anakin at this I mean the way that Anakin like drops to his knees in front of Palpatine is like the most vulnerable and scared and like completely like detached from himself that we've seen him he's he has

no grasp on life and and who he is and what he's capable of um and it like feels like he's coming out of like a a blackout like he just like when When he goes into these like rage moments and like commits these atrocities, it's like he can't even reason with the person that judge did that thing. And I think what you just said, Austin, is completely right. Whereas before he at least had somebody else to ground him, even if that person was fucking evil, like Palpatine, at least he had somebody to just to process with. And now he has no one. and nothing and he just like submits himself because where else where else does he go and the answer is padma he does still have padma he could go to padma right now and be like the most wild shit this

happened i fucked up we have to immediately try to make this right but he's still afraid that padma's going to die but that's also her risk to run like that's the other part of this is yeah at no point has she seemed nearly as perturbed by the possibility that she might die like now admittedly this is Because she doesn't believe that. Yeah. And from Anakin's perspective, my visions come true. Like, he believed that. You know, I didn't respond to this when it was with my mother.

I was told not to respond to this. And she died. I could have saved her and I didn't. And now it's like, oh, shit, this is, this will happen. Yeah. And, of course, the great, the great failure of most profits, not accounting for the possibility that you might be the one to bring it into being. Of course.

Um, I have to say that I made a note in this scene, which is that Anakin, this is also, like, the sexiest Anakin has ever looked in the whole series. Down on his knees, desperate and sad and broken and looking for guidance, yeah? Yeah. looking for anything to anchor to and yeah it is what it is yeah this was my this is so sexy um so i just wanted to say that also when he like when fucking palpatine's like all right you're mine let's go uh what's gonna be your name uh Darth Vader it's like it has it feels like he just pulled it out of a hat and Anakin is just like so

fucking discombobulated and like drunk with like rage and evil that he's just like okay I guess I'm Darth Vader now this this this sand it stands out to me because like you're going to be a Sith you're going to be an evil guy you're going to have unlimited power and you can't

even choose what your name is like that's an assignment are you kidding me yeah I've what I I think if you're the sort of Sith who like learns the mysteries of Sith power through ancient holocrons, you get to name yourself. If you were just manipulated into fucking up so hard that you became the galaxy's worst monster, you got to take the L and take the name that you're given. It's like it's like it's

like being drafted into a sports team. You don't get to pick what team you go to. You don't pick your number. Maybe they'd maybe they honor the number you had. In fact, in some ways, Palpatine is is doing that because he knows that at the heart of the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker is fatherhood not having one being betrayed by the ones that he or feeling betrayed by the ones his adopted fathers

in his life and then failing to be one to his own children names him Darth Darth father. So, you know, I think in some ways it's appropriate. I wonder just watching the scene back, I wonder if Anakin

had gone to Padmae after this and not gone to go kill more people yeah yeah think about all here's another thing he could have done gone to the Jedi temple and be like we have to get out of here right right right word to the Jedi temple

but I mean if if Anagan had gone to Padmay and to save her life is what I'm saying yeah yeah and I because in when he's committing himself to Palpatine he you can see that he's it's like in his head he's like okay just get me to the part where I save Padmay basically is like just please like just take me there like God what the fuck have I done but at least let me save one other life today please God let me do that and I

think that like in he there's he's still like there's still redemption is in him in this moment, that if he were to go to Padmei and either see through Palpatine's lies or have some sort of connection with Padmae, I think the fact that he meet that Palpatine immediately sends him to go, like, is like dangling the carrot on the stick and is like, go enact terrible, continuous more monstrosities. And then we'll do Padmae. I think by then he's fucking lost. Because he can't go to Padman and say, I killed all these children.

He knows, that's the thing. He can't do that. But if he goes in this moment, we're in an AU where he and Padmay hook up with Baylor Gana. It's a genuinely, a totally acceptable thing in the realm of Star Wars morality to be like, this Sith lord manipulated me into letting,

into escaping and killing May's window. I don't think anyone would bat an eyelash to be like, oh my God, the Dark Lord of the Sith got one over on 20-year-old Anakin's Sky. No, this is literally Kylo, this is literally Kylo and Ray in the fucking throne room. Totally. 100%.

If he goes to Padmae, they get the fuck out. He sends word to the Jedi Temple to escape before the clones get there. The Jedi get off planet and try to, you know, reconvene somewhere else. It's a whole different ballgame, baby. We're going a different civil war situation now. We do have the clones versus the Jedi going forward. And I think this is also key to, so why does he still have a path to redemption? because to a degree his passivity is his defining characteristic about his turn

it's that he never really does get a chance to consider his options he doesn't really consider how the next step brings him close to any of his goals and so you can sort of believe that years later and I think Rogue One kind of touches on this Vader is kind of a brooding angry figure but like not a happy one not a like happy servant of evil unlike Palpatine who is joyous throughout the rest of this film basically. Just like ecstatic at the way this is gone. And Anakin just kind of gets bum rushed in a lot of these situations.

Like Palpatine, about missing a beat, he's like, we got to do the whole Jedi now because they'll be after us. And it's like, no, no, no, they'll be after you. Like, they will, like, yes, there will be consequences for Anakin. He might have to do time, whatever the equivalent of that is for being part of this debacle. But like, you're the Sith Lord. Anakin's a guy who was in over his head. But, like, immediately, it's framed as, well, we're both, you know, we're both equally guilty here.

So to save ourselves and Padmay and you, we got to kill all them kids. And Anagan's like, yeah, you're right. It becomes interesting how protect Padmay turns in to protect Palpatine because Palpatine shows himself as the only person who can have a pathway to that. Yeah. Well, totally. Says. He's the only shows.

That's the part where I get hung up. Yeah. Either way, we are now in Execute Order 66. Territory. Here we go. The reason, the thing that brought us here today. I, I, I have so many questions about this. because when

when Palpatine after this conversation Palpatine gets on the Holocron or whatever and calls up his A holocron is like a cube that's a book Okay

What is the what is the fucking I have been calling it the Holocron for like once What is the FaceTime called? A communicator A communicator, okay He hops on the Holonet

Yeah I think the Holland is the internet isn't it? I don't know what a community I don't know what this thing is called. The FaceTime. But he gets, it's a hollow projector

is what the thing is. Okay. That's connected to a com link. Okay. But the Holocron is a Jedi in Karta CD. That's exactly right. Oh shit, Natalie. It probably has nothing to you.

No, I don't know what the fuck you. Do you know what Enkarta is? You know what in the car? No. It's like, it's a Jedi Wikipedia. Yeah, it's like if you had, if you had a cube, but it only had one Wikipedia article on it.

And it was a guy tells you about it. But it was a sick Wikipedia. article. I would like that. It's usually forbidden information. Oh, okay. You go to a special

library to take it out and like be like Or you have to jump a bunch. You have to jump a bunch. Yeah, grimoire is a good. Yeah, grimoire is a good What fucking game have you all played that this is like the fucking quest or whatever?

Star Wars the Old Republic but also both the Cotor games. Anything that's like Jedi history focused. Is this, wait, is this a part of the the last trilogy. Is there a holocron in that?

There's a hall. There has to be a holocawn. I feel like I remember a search for an orb. Isn't that what they get to make a C3PO evil? Because they have to upload the Sith language to C3PO to make it evil. Oh, my God. Maybe. I think you might.

I forget a lot about. Jesus Christ. We'll get there eventually. I think that was a Sith Wayfinder. A wayfinder is apparently distinct from a holoer. Macron's the fucking stupid I'm still real mad about that dagger with the map like me too me too me too gotta hate that I'm so mad about that movie I'm so so so anyway so he calls him on the face time and there we go that's accurate yeah calls up his main clone

and is like execute order 66 and the club's like yep okay bye yep what what how I what is order what is order 66 how is it is it like an activation word is it just so there is we will get a

serious big answer to this in a later Clone Wars season what I want to say is that answer is more is less ambiguous than the answers that were available at the time this is all here because it makes an amazing cinematic set piece and a

a twist. Narratively, and my suspicion is, like, from the first, we were clear, the Clone Wars as a series is doing a lot of cleanup on concepts that were poorly executed, and I think this is a perfect example. Like, first of all, if the clones are just conditioned to, like, execute these orders, what is the mechanism by which the entire squad gets the message? Like, this isn't, it makes for a cool series of shots where the clones sort of look at each other knowingly, and they're like, all right, let's get these guys.

but it's not entirely clear why seconds before he attempts to murder Obi-Wan, Cody makes sure he has a lightsaber, which isn't something that, like... I think that's such an important detail. You're totally... That to me, that to me communicates that we're supposed to leave this unsure if this is a pre-programmed thing or an inculturation thing, right? Because Cody likes Obi-Wan enough to make, hey, bud, you forgot your lightsaber. Otherwise, Annikin's crew rolls with him into the fucking Jedi Temple before Order 66 is given. Maybe they don't know what they're going there to do, but I bet they fucking do.

Yeah. That didn't require an activation of an order as far as we saw, right? Right. It's not a kill switch in the sense that, like, they lose their humanity in that moment, right? It's not like they're turned into quote, quote, droids at that point. It's like, oh, I have an order and I have to go do it. Like, they're aware of the, like, necessity of their action, I guess is the thing, despite.

I do, I think the Cody one is the one that makes me think it might, that they're just watching this, that there might be something else there, because we see him be kind to Obi-Wan, and then seconds later be like, all right, fuck him up. So does that happen post-orders? Because I thought he handed it. No, seconds before. Lightsaber, Order 66, shoot him. that's the, like literally

Obi-Wan has gone up the stairs basically from where they have this conversation and immediately runs out the heavy artillery and tries to shoot him with a cannon. So like it's just like the entire thing is we get a great sequence of clones being like all right time to get these guys but we don't get any sense

because the movies have not been curious about the clones this was the weird thing with the attack of the clones the movie's not interested in clones. It's interested in Django Fet. That movie is like, we need to explain the origins of Boba Fett. Here are the origins. There was a clone army of his dad, and we're not supposed to be more interested in the clone army. We're supposed to be like, so that's where Boba Fett came from.

And that's why he's so angry. And it never occurred to anyone making that movie that, like, yo, this secret clone army that exists is extremely fucked up and weird. We get one shot of it, which is why I remember that all. all the clones, eating unison, and one deviating. Like, these moments stick out to us, but they're now what the movie's interested in. The TV show is a realization that, like, shit, you know what it was cool. The clones, the clone wars. Well, and in some ways, it's the perfect metaphor for what the larger political question is,

which is how do we, can we, to what degree are we programmed by the culture that we're in, how can a move towards fascism be derailed? Is it possible or is it too late? Because when it comes time for the order to come down, are too many motherfuckers ready to pull the trigger, right? How do you get out of that inculturation? Is that possible? Is a question that we'll see the Clone Wars series continue to ask as we continue?

I think the other thing cuts against the scene, though, is that... So I was watching the 2014 Godzilla the other night. And I was thinking, one of the things that Garrett Edwards is real good at doing and I think this is kind of necessary for like large format disaster films is you have to be able to create characters out of people who are just there

to meet a horrific ending or be in peril to have the sense of like there's a large scale disaster happening and people are caught up in it and good disaster movie directors like and the movies might be mediocre but they create memorable beats that you're like oh yeah that guy you can probably remember a lot of the random deaths that happened in Independence Day.

That movie sucks, but you remember a lot of the ways that people, like, get it in those movies. Here, the death of the Jedi is kind of inert. Like, it's a lot of anonymous, like, oh, yeah, here's another Jedi that you may have seen before in a scene, and here are the clothes. Getting shot in the back, but not in, like, a cool way, just, like, stops walking for a second and then get shot in the back. Yeah.

Or we get that wide shot of the fighting in the Jedi Temple, I think it is, where all the clones are gunning down the Jedi and see their blades flashing as they fight vainly to save their own lives. But it's not an emotionally resonant shot at all. Like, it just, Order 66 is, again, a cool concept. I don't think the moment comes off very well. I don't think the, if I was talking about the horror movie aspect of the Palpatine scene a moment ago, I think this is also meant to be horrifying. It doesn't land because the Jedi, with the exception of the handful of characters we've met,

aren't really personified. We don't, they still aren't meaningful characters to us. We're just supposed to care about them because we know they're Jedi. And we've watched three movies about the return of this noble order. But, like, watching it play out, I was just like, I don't care. And none of this is memorable. The concept is memorable. The moments that comprise it are not.

Yeah. Yeah, there's just no, there's no, the most, the drama is held in Yoda's reaction to each death. Like that is what we're supposed to be feeling is like Yoda's force soul, like being, you know, broken piece by piece with each Jedi that dies. But the actual, this, it feels like the, this is what I was saying about Palpatine cutting down Kit Fisto. and the other two randos. And then in this scene and also thinking about Attack of the Clones Colosseum scene, like there's no weight behind it. There's no,

there's no significance to the death of that person. They're just, you know, a body falling onto the floor. I think that this is one of my biggest beefs with the whole film is how they do the executions. Because it's just like, if I didn't watch Clone Wars, I, number one, wouldn't know who any of these motherfuckers are. And two, I wouldn't give a shit. I'd be like, God, like, yo, poor Yoda.

That's what we're supposed to, that's what we're supposed to feel. It's poor, that's what I wrote down. I said, oh, my God, poor Yoda, sad face. We're not supposed to care about, I guess it's not really, we're not supposed to, but we. I wrote something else down that you didn't write down. I wrote Plu Koon, no. I wrote down, not Plow Koon, in all caps. So, but.

And I knew, the thing is, this is the other thing. It's like, this is the, when I saw this movie in theaters, I also went, Plow Coon, no, because I knew who Plow Coon was, because I had played Jedi Power Battles and had read comics and had been engaged in the Clone Wars of the Day, which was this extended universe. So this scene did work for me then, because I knew who these characters were. I knew who Kiyadi Mundi was and was surprised to see him get gunned down. I agree that I don't think it lands as hard as it needs to, except for the young, except for the youngling stuff. which is a different sequence in many ways because there are different stakes there. But it's also such a strange setup for Yoda. When you think about the mainstream audience, like having seen the first three movies and now they're saying, okay, how did Yoda end up being this fucking green little goblin on this random-ass planet?

It's like the Yoda that leaves Kashik, there's so much sadness and, like, like pain and loneliness. And and then when I think about the guy that you meet in the original trilogy, it's like that dude is on one. He's on another fucking...

I mean, it's been 20, it's been literally 20 years alone in that fucking jungle. I know, but like... He's gotten weird. He's gotten weird. And also that's a front. That's the other thing that we learn about Yoda in those original movies is he's playing a game with Luke.

and there's a deep sadness there that you hear when he talks to Obi-Wan's ghost in those original movies where he lets that he pulls that facade down and he's like I don't think Luke's got it we can't go through this again I think he's like having fun being a little gremlin because it's the first person he's spoken to in 20 years yeah as far as we know maybe the Yoda series will drop in three years and we'll learn that Yoda led a deep life I actually really like act three Yoda in this movie I like I love every beat and I think it actually does tail well and I'm super excited to get into it once we kill all these Jedi um they all die they all lose platoon dies I miss him and then I hate that he gets shot down I hate it because my brain goes

what if he lived what if the tune got out maybe he ejected a fighter was twirling yeah he can we know he can breathe in space he could be a great Jedi maybe him in him in mace windu meet up and yeah mace windu also didn't die he fell out a window don't worry about it in my mind he like caught a taxi or some other attack of the clone shit. Doesn't Samuel Jackson have his own whole theory? We spoke about this once right? Did we? Have we? I think so.

That makes when you lived? Yeah. Is this Samuel Jackson's head cannon? Every Jedi you like? That Jedi is Tupac. Good to know. Anyway, so Obi-Wan swims out of order 66.

Yoda gets a little force, like he feels all the Jedi dying and just cold cuts down his clones without missing a beat I feel like the wukies underreact to this I feel like the actors this is once again like green screens like the guys in the wookie suits haven't been read in I'm like so you just saw Yoda slaughter the clone army that was brought here to help you because the wookie is just like all right, I guess we've got to go. Climb on up, Yoda. He says

there is sort of his goodbye to Chewbacca, you know, as Yoda realizes that everything has changed now. But also, we get Anakin's raid on the Jedi Temple and one last time George

has gotten to cast a child actor. And with that unerring instinct, we get Another awkward, unconvincing little kid, just cold reading some Star Wars script. I love this little kid. I don't know. He cast a kid just as awkward and weird as the Anakin kid was, and that's intentional, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Master Skywalker. What do we do? Bois. You know. The little, the kid. Jumping back just a little bit

That's talent He's got a bright future Yeah I wonder what that character's name is Who is the youngling Who speaks Dead Kid 1 In Revenge of the Sith

Yeah dead kid one Source Bandine Is the name of the character Source SORS SORS SORS B-A-N-D-E-A-M Shoutouts to that kid Cool name Died 19 B-V-E-E-1 why?

I think we also this sets up one of Baylorgana's finest hours where first of all Duke's just riding around Corrassan

as the coup goes down in just a sweet ride and we get a sense that like Bayal Organa maybe he's like the Bruce Wayne

like playboy type figure of like he's just hanging and he just shows up at the Jedi temple in his cool car

and the clones try to like play it cool and they're like oh you know there's Benakou and you should probably leave

and he's like I should probably leave and then shitty little Jedi leaps up there and starts fighting the clones and the whole plot is basically betrayed and Baylor Ghana has to get out of there

but I do like his first reaction is I just need to get a word I need to get a call out to all the Jedi to tell them not to come here and basically to go to ground because the Jedi the Jedi temple is like summoning all Jedi to go get their asses kicked

and walk into the trap And Bail Organa, like, the only person who has presence of mind at this moment of crisis, to be like, you know what I like about Bail here? The Jedi are fixated on how can we put a cap on this disaster? Bail has already thought forward and realized this is probably going all the way bad. And we just need to accept that like we are now living in a post-Jedai Temple world and how are we going to lay the groundwork for resistance? That's what we have to do here. And I like that. It kind of establishes why he's going to become an important, like, resistance leader that we never meet in the first film.

But he does bridge the gap of, like, oh, yeah, it makes sense that, like, Leia is his kid and that Alderon becomes the hotbed for, like, the resistance that Palpatine couldn't quite crack. It's shocking that he is so savvy and, like, aware and just has the, like, so much foresight. because there are very little other political figures who have any of those qualities at all whatsoever. Yeah. Did we all see that cool deleted scene where they're trying to have the meeting about like how we start trying to put the brakes on Palpatine?

Yes. And Bail's like, Bail and Padme are both like, this has gotten really out of hand. We need to start like putting some limits on his power and like pushing back. and the fucking this group of crypto rebels half of them are like

we just need to sign that petition and once we get that change change.org request through to Palpatine he'll have no choice but to go along and it's just the way his face falls at that moment where he realizes like

these motherfuckers won't defend their power and the thing is this is stuff that like we had just seen as a country go through Like, the world's greatest deliberative body, the Senate, a group of power-hungry shit heels of ever there was one, are just kind of chill about, like, endorsing the unitary executive theory. Like, they just, they can't show up to, they can't show up to these fights, because fundamentally, they're cool with what's happening. Yeah. They just quibble at the details.

the other thing that jumps out of me here is palpatine Anakin goes home to Padman and all this because she sees the jelly temple burning and there being like ports of fighting around the city and my note here is Anakin is so poorly written and unconvincing I'm not even sure he knows he's lying like this scene misfired so bad for me

that like I can't tell to what degree he's, He is lying his ass off to Padmae to keep her on side. And to what degree he genuinely believes that, like, all of this has been a coup against Palpatine? It's just, it's such a stumbling scene for me that I just, I couldn't work out the degree to which he is just distorting things for Padme's benefit. And what is self-delusion here? This is when he starts to adopt the sort of, like, lower voice. and, like, head bob of an absolute lifetime scammer of him being like... She's like, are you all right?

I heard there was an attack on the Jedi Temple. And he's like, I'm fine, I'm fine. I came to check to see if you and the baby were safe. Are you, you know, the Jedi tried to overthrow the Republic, baby. You got to understand. And it's just like, uh-huh, try harder. I love the... What is going to become of Obi-Wan loss?

I hope he stayed loyal. The fuck. You hope? he stayed loyal? I'm sorry, the future godfather to our children? You hope he stayed loyal? I just, it's a lot. This scene is a lot.

Like, you just murdered. Tell us your, search your feelings. You know it to be true. Tell us how you really feel. Natalie. I think Anakin, okay, so I think that, the dark side has to have like an influence over

someone's countenance like in just the way that you like Anakin it certainly did for Palpatine Anakin in this he's like there's nothing behind his eyes like there he is just completely void of any

I don't even know what the right word is It's not even like, it's like his spirit is gone. He's just like this shell of a person. He's not hot. He's, he's still fucking hot is the thing. But he, but when he shows, the fact that he post-killing the kids goes to see Amadala and like has this like moment with, like, he kisses her. and it just it seems like he's so out of his body like it's so out of his body like he's

totally dissociating like a hundred like he comes and he's like it doesn't he it doesn't even feel like he's going to check if she's still alive like it just it feels like such a weird like pit stop on the way to like the next murder spree that it's he it's like almost robotic and it like it's like he's being possessed, really. It's like he's... Okay, not robotic, not robotic. No, you're right. No, I'm saying that that's correct.

That is 100% the way that character is right. Is that he loses his humanity and becomes a big robot man. Like, that is the Darth Vader story. That is the core metaphor that they've been using since a New Hope is he's not a... Is there even a man under there or is he mostly machine? Well, right? The other thing that you could read into this, that this is also what Yoda has been warning about coming true, which is that

Yoda, like, Padman has become a treasured possession, but not a person. And so this is him just checking in to make sure that his possession isn't wandering away, that she's still secure and safe where he left her, and now he's got to go off to do the next murder spree. Because he is in,

he is in it now. Like, it is, Act 3 is the last reel of the Goodfellas, where it's just all gone to shit, and he's just running from, like, extremity to extremity, trying, to make sure that the wheels stay on the scam? I just, I think there's something interesting here, though,

because, like, the thing that he's doing is the thing that he thinks is necessary, right? We're, like, he's going through the motions. He thinks at this point that he has saved her and he is doing the things to save her. And, like, it's interesting that it comes from a lack of affection there, but also what he thinks that he's doing is securing his goals. So, like, there's, like, there's almost the, like, it's not quite, satisfaction but I think back to like there was almost like a pride that he had when he was explaining how he slaughtered the the sand people to her initially that I feel like you see shades

of it here where it's like okay Palpatine told me what to do I'm doing it it's all good now right you don't have to worry about anything right it's a portrait of a person lying to himself about what the future holds and like imagining a scenario where this is over tomorrow I fly out there, I kill 12 more dudes, Palpatine, the Jedi get killed, we move on to whatever that new world is, Padma and I can be together. And we, we're clear, we're free and clear of so many of the stressors that we've been, that have been causing us, or that have been, you know, causing us stress. Well, is you, like, this sort of ties in what you're saying, all the Jedi think they have time,

so does Anakin. Anakin thinks, in the fullness of time, we can make this right and work this out. But today, I just need things to stay cool. And I have a hard time seeing any of that in this scene, though. Like this scene to me reads like Palpatine has shrunk himself into being like a tiny little worm that's like inside Anakin's brain and is like piloting Anakin. It's like, okay, kiss. Kiss Amadala now. Okay. I think that that is.

I think in a soft sense. But that's just being around people who twist you. That's just like having negative influences in your life who convince you to be like a shitty dude who doesn't show affection to his loved ones. I don't know that it's forced robot piloting. And I do think he gets excited when he talks about going to kill the people on Mustafa. I do think that when he says, I'm going to go end this war, that is the thing that he can, that he actually, that fits into pre-tragedy Anakin's worldview.

And it's a thing that he and Padmae were previously aligned on in the sense that we want the war to end. And Anakin has always been the like action hero. I'm going to go make it happen in person. And that he can do that, I think is a genuine thing he says. I'm with you that the kiss feels like it's not that it's not so much that like what I mean to say is that he, he feels like he feels like he's delivering, he's saying what he's supposed to say. Just a quick thing. Fundamentally, like, I think most of Natalie's problems here are solved by the fact I think it's badly executed. You just think, Annik, you just think Hayden Christensen doesn't deliver these lines.

And they're not good lines. Well enough. Because I don't think, we're projecting a lot of readings into them. Like, this could be meant to, but I don't think there's a lot in the text. And I don't think the two players are given a lot to do with the script. And so I think we end up in this place with, why is the scene so weird? Where is Anakin's agency? Part of it is,

Anakin's agency is kind of murky in all of this, but the other part of it is, we wouldn't know if it weren't because it is so, like, he seems really wouldn't. He seems really unnatural. Welcome to being an inexperienced actor in a George Lucas directed picture.

Yeah. I also think it's a failure of writing Padmay who does not take any sort of active position in this entire scene. It asks questions, but has no... Isn't it like, Anakin, you're being weird? Like, any...

Well, I think... We'll do some loop closing on Anakin when he has his final, like, speaking scene with Padman, Obi-Wy-Wan. I think we're going to do some final glimpses of the character there. Here we... So he massacres the Separatus.

I don't have a lot for this scene. It's funny to see all of them in their shitty little headquarters waiting for... Darth Stadis is like, You guys just stay where you are. I'm sending my guy. He literally says, I'm sending my agent to take care of you.

And they're all like, great, we're going to be taking care of. I love it. You're going to get yours from my agent very soon. You should make arrangements. All right, cool. Yeah, he's got a plan. This sounds great. The other thing that I love,

is Palpatine has to give a speech explaining why the Jedi aren't enemies of the state. But also, explaining his now fucked up countenance. You can imagine the C-SPAN Chiron. Chancellor Palpatine explains fucked up countenance. Because he's like, he has to explain how the attempt on his life explains why he now looks like a fucking evil frog.

Yep. Yeah. Jedi did this to me. It's a great twist. I fucked my whole shit up, fam. Yeah. You'll never believe what you did. They made me blast forced lightning until my face caved in.

Don't people know like the signs of Sith. No. Because there haven't been any for thousands of years. But even in like a fairy tale like the Sith used to look like this. I feel like Jedi like culturally wouldn't be like they're not talking about the Sith like that. You know, they're not, like, letting people know about Sith history that way besides, like, don't fuck with them. They're bad people. Yeah.

But it's not even like, don't worship the devil, right? Like, they don't even, it's just, what if the devil, what if Christianity was so afraid of the devil that they never talked about the devil? Right. That you needed, like, high-level clearance to know Satan existed. Right. Right. But either way, though, it feels like. just one good camera shot.

People should feel like there's something off about this guy. Like, it's... I don't know. I'm sure there's all entire species of people whose faces look just like that. And they're like, yeah, fucking finally, no one's going to give us shit about our frog faces anymore. Yeah.

But I think, like people suddenly being like power hungry reptiles, though. Like, here I am, gang. Killing the Jedi Order and declaring empire. Changes in one. Yeah, it's a lot of... Declaring the empire is a real... Yeah, that's the...

Because, like, it's an interesting thing because it's like, you know, a Jedi tried to kill me, and I'm scarred now. And then it's like, okay, but how did that happen? Who tried to kill you? Can we just find basewood? Do why do we have to kill all of the Jedi?

And then, like, even if you interrogate it there, it's like, well, how'd you get scarred? Well, there was Force Lightning. Okay, who in that situation knows how to use Force Lightning? What happened? The Jedi. Damn. Mace Windew this whole time.

I guess they were secret evil. Yeah. That was, and that was the end of the internal. My crew was with me. And they say, that's what happened. And that was the end of the internal investigation. These two flunkies you've never seen before. Yeah, that's exactly it though.

Now, it's like, oh, we did an internal investigation. We cleared the emperor. I mean, high chancellor, Palpatine. Lord Palpatine. Yeah. And we get the line This is the line that at the time was like One of the many lines of this movie

So this is how democracy falls to thunderous applause Yeah, it's fine She says it She says it It was true then It was a little on the nose then It still is So we also get

Obi-Wan having his last conversation with Padmay Where he calls out like, look, I know uh another another anachans um but also it's it's very obiwan to to on the one hand now that he and yoda have visited the july temple and found out like what's been going on here um obi one has a plan b like if if if padmay won't level with him he will just tail her uh and we're back to investigation mode obi one to an extent where he's like look i'm the shake this tree and either she's going to just like spill the entire story to me or she won't be able to help herself but lead me to Anakin and I will sort this out um do we want to talk about the

plan here the last ditch plan that the Jedi have to to sort of write the ship here uh which is a double assassination I I'm this is the search your feelings drop that really upset me because It's again, Yoda being like, oh, you should use the relationship that you have with this person to cause them harm. And I hate it. I don't like it. Yota is a bad person in my opinion. The whole searcher feelings thing is so, like, is that like just, because Palpatine drops that to Anakin. It's another, are you asking if it's another Star Warsism?

No, I know it's a Star Warsism, but like I always kind of understood it as like a Jedi thing. And so, no, it's Darth Vader who says it in Empire. It's what Darth Vader says to Luke when he tries to convince, when he says, I am your father and Luke says, no, Vader says search your feelings, you know it to be true. And then offers him, join with me and we can overthrow the emperor. That is the, it's always been a bad, it's always been a bad person, say, hey, think about your personal relationships and the way the force has worked in your history to align yourself with me.

And Yoda is just another one on the pile of a bad person using it against a vulnerable person. I also feel like... It sucks. I'm with you. Again, the Jedi having been kind of distasteful of politics for so long, are just so behind the play here where it's like, oh, it turns out that

being invisible emissaries who do their work behind the scenes makes it hard to address the fact that now you have to make a frontal assault on a democratic figurehead of an authoritarian movement. Like their plan here is we're just going to kill Palpatine and Anakin and hope this, hope that we can put a lid on this. I need to correct myself, it's used twice an empire strikes back. First time, the emperor says, quoting Yoda, there is a great disturbance in the force, which is what Yoda says, right, during Order 66.

Vader says, I felt it. The emperor says, we have a new enemy. The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker. Vader says, how is that possible? Because how is that possible? I thought my kids died. And the emperor says, search your feelings, Lord Vader.

You know it to be true. He could destroy us. Vader says, he's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him. The emperor says the force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi. Vader says, if he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally. The emperor says, yes, he would be a great asset.

Can it be done? And Vader says he will join us or die, master. And it breaks my fucking heart. That, like, Anakin Skywalker, 20 years later is like, my boy's alive. I cannot, I have to convince the emperor not to kill him. God. Palpatine's saying Anakin Skywalker there, like, he's like a third person. Fucking rules. Yeah, it's fucking great

Obviously, it's so they can get the I'm Your Father drop But it is also just good on its own merits For sure Anyway, your plan The plan is good, I think Rob Or it's not good It's just like what else do you fucking I guess the thing you can do is you go off and try to build

You try to build a resistance with Baylor Ghana But do you, does it always not you That you didn't try to hit the home run when you could That you didn't try to cut the heads off the Hydra when you had this one brief moment. How much damage can these guys do until you get a resistance going, you know? I don't know.

Okay. So Padmey is rushing to Anakin's side to find him on Mustafa. Unbeknownst to her, Obi-Wan, is hidden aboard the ship to track down Anakin. And so we had kind of two fights that are going to unfold in parallel here,

are two incidents that are going to unfold in parallel. Let's deal with Padmei and Anakin first, since this has become so central to our discussion. She tried, like, in terms of the two things, there are two types of consequences that come down the ramp at Anakin when her ship lands. The first is kind of a confrontation with, like, who he, like, who he's become, like, the things he's losing by going down this path. And Padme, more understandable still, more understanding perhaps than I would be at this point. She is still very much in a, we can somehow fix this type of mode.

She is trying to get Anakin to think of the future, trying to get him to, my read on this is like she's in such a panic at what's happening that she kind of just wants to take the nuclear family and run. That we're just going to, what she's proposing isn't necessarily even we will fix this. It's, we will fuck off by ourselves and our new family to exile and be happy somewhere, that we can just get out of all of this. And, yeah. I feel like that's what Anikin's proposed. Like, what Padamay says to him is I can't follow you down this road. It's not even like, it's such a weird thing.

to say from Padme for me because it's like I'm not going to stop you going down the road that you're going but I can't go there with you like he's going down the road of becoming a fucking mass murdering like imperialist that's the road he's going down and the and and Padme's approach is like you've changed like it's as if he's like like I feel like Padmae is is interpreting Anacan's change as something like, oh, like, you don't like take me out on as many dates as you did anymore or like as you used to or like you don't like. That's, that's far. She does say like this isn't you. She does, I mean, the thing that she says is like, come help me raise our child.

This isn't you. She's all I want is your love. he says love won't save you Padmay only my new powers will and that is when she proposes like come away with me help me raise our child and and leave everything else behind while we still can and he's like we don't have to run anymore we don't have we it's we're good now we did it I also love my new powers will TBD what new powers do you have well I was told to kill a 40 to 100 people today and because of that I feel powerful and therefore things are solved. Yeah.

And I think the reason she's like, I can't follow you down this road is because she's scared out of her fucking mind. Yeah. She did the thing that was like, I'm going to try to stop you, which was come raise our kids with me or our kid because she doesn't know at this point somehow. They have flying cars, but I guess she doesn't

know that she's having twins. But the, yeah, I think that her big final play that she thought would work was all I need is your love. Let's go fuck off and live on a grassy planet somewhere. Let's go back to the beautiful days of having picnics and you can tell me about why authoritarianism

was good and I can pet your hair. And this is just not, it's just not enough to bring him back at this point. It's just such a sad, you're right. And I was down playing it earlier. But it really does read like a partner

who has been like completely emotionally abused and manipulated for a relationship like this is the well if we can just have one more good day

then we'll have you know maybe there will be another good day like if you can make the right choice here like maybe things will get better like if just in this if I

get this one positive reinforcement for the past like 20 negative interactions that we've had like maybe maybe this relationship can be saved and I think you I think you're right and I think I was being dismissive earlier is that like this is someone who's reaching out to someone that they've lost but still love like this is this is you know the the love of an abusive relationship. And it's, and it's not, I mean, it never, like she, she never, she never, even on her deathbed, even after he attacks her, she asks for him. I think this is where the, the personalization of the moral and political conflicts in this

can get into really icky places. And to a degree, Padme from day one has always been a symbol of, of good Star Wars politics, which is Democratic monarchist. She is the power, the potential of the state. And he is the force of fascism coming to overtake it. And so I think that in a weird way, it ends up having a lot of these political issues also conflated as relationship dynamics, which can be illuminating in some ways, but also can lead them to places where it does not feel commensurate of what's happened,

where you have her pleading for that one good day, we can fix this relationship. But the scale what we're talking about is no longer an abusive relationship. He is a, like, a fascist mass murderer at this point. And so we still have her approaching him in the language of, and framing things in the language of us, the personal, the relationship the transgressions have so far exceeded that that it seems comical or delusional to still be like having these conversations you can say well yes she's just trying to after a certain point she's trying to get out of this conversation safely but you're still kind of left

there with the Padma we're not this is bigger than you and Anakin at this point and it's not clear that she knows that, but I'm not sure she's in a movie that knows that. You don't think that the metaphor at play here is exactly what you've said, which is if you, their relationship being a microcosm

of the relationship between kind of the American American-loving patriotic Democrats who have ceded too much power to the sort of growing military industrial complex.

the ways in which we're slipping towards fascism and authoritarianism, and all the Democratic senators in this moment can say is, I love America, and don't understand that that's not going to fix anything, that we can't have one good president to fix us at this point. Actually, maybe we need to demolish this entire relationship and can't see, can't see to that because of the fact that she's been caught up in it, the fact that she is in love, is in love with, him. I don't think it's too dissimilar from the ways in which many Americans can't see beyond America, can't imagine a world without a United States of America, despite the fact that such a thing would be justice. Yeah. And I don't know that I do understand what you're saying, that there is a tension that arises when you try to, and it makes Padme specifically look foolish because the scale of what he's done is so tremendous. And the scale of what he's been part of and what he's fail to stop is so so egregious that you're right it makes her seem completely blinded by her love um which we can go back to that conversation that they had previously um but i but so i

think you're right about that but i do think that there is a mapping that you could do to the naive american you know center left who thinks one good decision if only we vote obama in we can fix america no yeah too many dead younglings you know i mean i think that that that metaphor for like redeems if only for the sake of of the symbolism that redeems the relationship but other like otherwise I think this relationship is so void of like significance

or meaning like between both Padmae and Anakin like it just there is nothing in it for Padmae at this point, she's just like a plot device for Anakin's, you know, villain arc. Well, and it's also has to be contrasted against his relationships with Palpatine and Obi-Wan, which Hayden Christensen is much more comfortable exploring on screen compared to his relationship with Natalie Portman. Well, they just don't even get as, like, I want to say that the time spent between Anakin and, Padme is so

is so small and so in these passing moments it's never like we're you know you can tell they've spent the day together or whatever it's always like kind of like these in secrecy or like on the way to something else

so there's you don't get really domestic life from them we haven't gotten it since they were on the field you know in on fucking Naboo I just think that Padmae is really left behind in this movie as a character. And like, although I think that that metaphor for, you know, American politics is extremely strong and, like, does a, you know, I don't know.

I mean, the difference, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying that the relationship is good on screen because of that metaphor maps to it. I'm saying that Rob's particular thing of like you can't map the she is acting in a way that's personal to a crisis that's political is I think a metaphor but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think that she's a well-used character or a character who's treated with respect by the script or by the director I think that she's left to be a plot device and a metaphor like anytime a character is just a metaphor you've done you've done your actor dirty because especially again adjacent to a sequence that was about to unfold in which the characters get to be characters

and get to have their emotional relationship explored through great with great physicality and time after a full movie in which she's barely gotten to do fucking anything except be kind of to the side and either sad or naive depending on what the scene requires from her like yeah Natalie Portman gets done dirty Padmay gets done dirty here and what can you fucking do again clone wars here we go. I hope Clone Wars gives her more. I don't even think we get a lot of payoff for, um, even though Hayden and you and McGregor have gotten better playing us each other, I don't even think the Obi-Wan showdown as he comes down the ramp to sort of, uh, bring the reckoning with like, no, we are now fully aware of what has happened and what

you've become. Even there, I don't think we get a great exchange. Maybe that's because that the real conversation being safe for later in the five. when it becomes a meme-fied. I think that whole fight is the conversation in many ways, right? But here, his appearance just triggers this, like, fit of jealousy and him going full Vader on Padmay, and that's sort of, like, closing off his sort of last, his point of no return for even trying to work through the, like, the graces of the last two people who will stand up for him uh he forecloses that and we're into the fight but i think i would have

i think i was looking for what i would have hoped to see with like obi one and uh anakin is a little bit of i don't know an actual like this is just not the movie that lucas is making i guess you know what i mean i'm looking for that scene where the two players reckon more fully with their relationship and instead we do it is done through the the fight it's every They're matching saber blows, illustrating the ways in which they have become physically and emotionally tied to each other in a way in which every attack has an immediate and perfect counter because they've become so aligned with each other. I guess it goes back to Lucas saying that fundamentally Star Wars is a silent film and that that's why the music is so important is because I think he sees this big final encounter to be belletic in the sense that the choreography is to. telling the story. The choreography is showing what their relationship is more than, more than you were like a brother to me. You were like a brother to me is the capstone on it, you know,

but the, the twirling and the going back and forth and quick counters, the standing underneath the embers coming in from the explosion of fire. Like that's all, that's all their relationship being made in, you know, fight scene choreography. Um, uh, I remember as a kid, wishing that Anakin's lightsaber had been read here for some reason and I'm just wrong he was young Austin was just wrong it's better that it's that it's two blue lightsabers like by a lot the last

the last like token of his Jedi show yeah I do think there's one interesting line in that opening conversation between them where um first of all Anakin's sort of disposition has changed now he's speaking with some like

something behind the words that he's saying, which is different to how he was, you know, back on Corrassan. But it still feels like he's kind of convincing himself. Like he has to play the part because he's in it too deep and this is just who he is now. And Obi-Wan responds to him at one point and says, only the Sith deal in absolutes. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, what the fuck does that mean? That's just not, the Jedi are literally always doing that.

It is the dark and the light. And if you think these thoughts, you're dark side. I think this speaks back to my theory that all the Jedi, all of the high-level Jedi masters actually do believe that every Jedi breaks the rules. They just don't teach that because they're afraid of that. That like part of becoming a Jedi master is accepting that no one lives up to the absolutes. And the problem with the Jedi is that they don't trust Padawan to understand that lesson and to be realistic about their desires and instead teach Padawan to just pretend they don't have any instead of managing them well.

Just repress until you get to mastery level and then we can kind of wink, wink, wink, nod at each other. Yep. It is like it sucks so hard because like it just you, how do you, you're putting, you're setting like, completely unreasonable expectations for something that like you're gonna I don't know it just I don't understand that he's the most full of shit of the Jedi too that's the other thing like of all Star Wars characters Obi-Wan might be the most bullshit artist of the bunch oh 100% but that's why he's so global this is my I feel for Obi-Wan what Natalie feels for Anakin which is like we could save him you see He seems fun to be around. He's sexy. Yeah. Speaking of things that are hot.

Yeah. The planet Mustafa. Oh. Oh, Mustafa. Sure. Oh, you thought you were going to talk about Yoda? I thought you were going to pivot to the Yoda Palpatine fight sequence. Okay.

Let's talk about that. Let's do that. Because you love it. Tell me why do you love this scene so much? It's convinced me an alley who are not down with this one. First of all. it is the cool like I don't think this series this trilogy has made a case for Yoda as cool badass but here it makes it he just walks into the chancellor's office drops those two guards and I like that you can see Palpatine yet again have that moment of like uh oh I might have overplayed my hand a little bit like Yoda is through playing games

he's here for blood and he kind of wish it's coming too late but it is like this is fully like Yoda unleashed in some ways which is I will just I will drop these guys

you know like sacks a flower and then I'm gonna kick your fucking ass and he proceeds to I think I think in general it always feels to me like he is getting he's giving slightly more than he guess

but he can't close the deal but I like the fight scene do you like it when he eats Palpatine across the room and makes him tumble into his own fucking cat chair yes I like that he throws him around that office

now it's very funny I think that prior to this scene one of my biggest qualms with the prequel trilogy was that they turned all of the Jedi into little jumping frogs

and that everyone can just jump and do flips and everyone's doing barrel rolls and doing random shit. It is the number one thing about Jedi fight scenes in the prequel trilogy that just I hate it. It just, it has no, there's no finesse, there's no engagement,

it's just doing cool stunts and there's there's nothing to it than that um nothing more to it than that this scene this fight scene between yoda and palpatine when they're bouncing on the pods or whatever is the only time that the flips look good to me it's the only when when they're when they're on when they're on when they're on when they're on the middle one when they're on the middle one and yoda's like flipping behind him flipping in front of him flipping around him, that is the best the flips have ever looked to me. Otherwise, it is my least favorite thing about the prequels. By far, by far. I also think the flips look bad generally in the prequels. I just think they also look terrible here. Yeah, I've always hated

the scene. Like, I feel like every time I see Yoda as like a warrior, I'm always like, this isn't what I want out of Yoda anyway. Like, he can be powerful in this different way. He doesn't also have to have sick flips. I've also always hated that they go. into the Senate chamber because it feels like it should feel like something and like you know that you like there's no satisfaction there of like these these two characters being in this place that means so much to them and like you know appearances are so important to them because like all we get out of that instead of like any character interiority is them throwing chairs like it just uses a set piece instead of anything meaningful and it fucking sucks like I don't know how

how you, like, may you have that meaning come across? Like, maybe if they, like, literally said anything to each other, or if there was, like, a third character. Ah, here we are, fighting in the heart of galactic democracy. Throwing the literal infrastructure. Isn't this ironic Yoda? Boom, boom. So, there's one trick.

I think this thing really misses. It's actually crucial that they go up to the Senate chamber and this fight happens in public because it proves he was right about the Jedi. this is the thing that is wild to me is they don't make clear that because there's no there's no senators to bear witness to this but there should be because this is the moment where it actually does it holy shit here's Yoda to set the right they've caught Yoda setting the Reichstag on fire basically is what happens here like here he is trying to kill the chancellor on the floor of the Senate and they don't really like it's more interested in it as Well, now it's a smash level. Right. And you kind of needed to embrace the fact that it's the Galactic Senate.

That would be a different scene. If there were people watching this or if this became public knowledge, but it doesn't, right? That's what I was waiting for. I was waiting for someone. That little camera droid to come through even. I was waiting for someone to come in, someone to like do, like, the fact that this place is the space of observation and spectacle. and that like the two highest most

it's like the metaphor just like lost the last bit like the puzzle piece that you need to put on it which is they have to be perceived like somebody has to perceive them they can't just battle in the perceived space to thunderous applause I just want senators here be like yeah fuck up Yoda

fuck him up Socrates exactly here's my other big beef with this scene the bit where you're Yoda's hanging on by fingernails. Oh, yeah. Bad, bad, bad. I hate it so much.

Yeah, that is true. That is true. I wrote down in my notes, this is immediately after the scene, but I wrote down Tunnel Yoda. My therapist says tunnel Yoda can't hurt me. I can't because it's a terrifying image. I wrote there is something fucking upsetting about Yoda crawling through the little tunnel.

I hate to look at it. It's so bad. I'm sorry, Rob. We know you. I know you love this scene. I decided I don't love the scene anymore. Yeah. Okay.

Maybe I don't. I love everything happens to the office. I also love that it happens. I do love that it's there. I wish, I think you're totally right. The version of it that's visible that plays up that visibility would totally rule. How do we like, okay, counter argument to myself, including the tunnel thing, how sick is it that Baylor Gano pulls up in the caddy, top back, top down, and.

and Yoda hops down in it in the fucking red corvette and drives away to space. I want their buddy, their buddy detective sitcom, like one day. Jimmy Smith is very good in all the little bits he's in here. I love him to death in this. It's fun. He's, I mean, underutilized throughout his dealings with Star Wars, but that's the nature of this era of Star Wars. Like so many good people coming through it and like kind of, being squandered.

I at least like that they lean into, Jimmy Smith's kind of cool. Everybody gets it, like, why he's just kind of cool. Some actors have that charisma. He does. Like, there's not many, I think there's a lot of actors

that if you had them driving their little Star Wars Corvette, it would look pretty stupid. He pulls it off. Yeah. Yeah, he just got swag. Yeah. Hey, you guys like my big rap?

I like the way it billows in my time. In my cloth top. He said, please excuse my dope-ass swag. Yeah. I think the thing is, Yoda, that was probably Palpatine's best shot. Get back up there. Yeah. Finish the fight, man.

Finish the fight, yeah. Baby Yoda was tired. Yoda's old, too. That could be like Yoda's realized. But then die. Honestly, you know what? It's now we're never, homie. either do it or yeah

I know I'm wrong because this turns out to be the wrong answer yeah but actually no Yoda doesn't know there's kids on the way though does he? No! Yota doesn't know so this is the thing I do like that in the end their vengeance plan is to turn Anakin's two children

into two guided missiles to destroy the empire one from the political side one from the fourth side that's cool but like Yoda doesn't know that plan For all he knows, this is the last chance to get Palpatine. I'm sorry, if the fight's hard, you've got to leave it all on the field. You've got to leave it all in the field.

You got to play until the fucking clock drops. Yeah. He's got more powers. He's holding back. You're right. He's holding back. 100%. I bet he could fly.

I bet Yoda can fly. 100%. No doubt in my mind. What did he just flew up there? After a certain point, there's a fine line between big jumps and flying. That's right. Superman learned that shit. Yeah.

Leia flies through space that time? She does. Yoda seems... If Yoda would have died to kill Palpatine, I think... Society of Yoda died to kill Palpatine, and it's... That's actually, yeah, that's true.

That's actually from the Star Wars A.U. I've been writing. Yeah, yeah. So, death fight doesn't go well. Mustafa, things also don't go well. for different reasons. Yeah. First, we have a really ambitious attempt.

Like, damn, like, Luke is going to try one more time to get really intense physical action and CGI sets to play nicely together. Yet again, I don't feel it fully comes off. Like, and, boy, video games seem to be a little bit large. Oh, sorry, my fucking video was up and I just got Tunnel Yoda and it threw me all the way off. you don't think it's better than the previous examples of this from like I just can't stop thinking about how bad the droid factory is in comparison to this we've come so far we have come so far I believe you I'm not doubting that you

that you don't like this sequence Rob I do believe that that's that this doesn't work for you but I think it's compared to the droid factory in the arena yes but those are the worst things ever. I like the sequence. This is one of my favorite saber fights in Star Wars. I like when they're on the two little robots and they're like going through the line. He's pulling up, like, had to do it to him. I like in that sequence, there's like the two other, are they droids or are they like,

is it aliens who just happened to be on lava boats in the background while all this shit is going on? And they're like, what the fuck is going on? That it's like, this factory. is collapsing and you got workers like floating by on their repulsive rafts being like, oh. Oh, yeah.

I missed them the first time. I just saw them. They're so funny. They're fun. You're not wrong about the ways in which this is a weird composite like CG stage fight. It just, most of a lot of stuff is boring. And it's like, I feel like it could have been a more compelling fight if you just like let it be about

them fighting and not them like moving through the space weirdly. crawling up big machines and, like, swinging at each other, like, swashbucklers. And then, like, dropping down the thing and, like, mm-hmm. But then they wouldn't get sweaty and all messed up. You get sweaty, jump it around and swing your sword. But all messed up. Not lava sweaty. Yeah, their shit gets all burned by the lava.

Yeah, it's good. And they got a whole lot of platforming to do. It's the mid-2000s, 3D platformers are in. You're right. This has maybe seen a few of them. and so we're going to get them hopping from like repulsor platform or repulsor platform leading to Obi-Wan finding crucially high ground.

Now, even I admit this is silly. I love it, but it is, there are other points in this fight he has the high ground. Yeah. I just, why is that... First of all, those rules are optional in second edition. Why is I have the high ground like the, like the, like, is so, over like I have it just you guys are fucking Jedi you guys can do what he could fucking it feels it feels so much like um a punchline to a joke we haven't seen the set

up for where like some in another cut of this movie this movie opens with someone else having the high ground and proving that that's like a definitive win do you know what I mean um and we just don't get that set up here we have to just pretend that that's an established thing between the two I guess the thing that it's the thing that it's the thing that it's actually rhyming with, that's funny, is you know who else had the high ground? Vader? No, I mean, yes, but before that chronologically. Who had the high ground against Obi-Wan Kenobi?

Darth-Mall? Darth-Mall. And who won that fight? Fucking Obi-Wan. So he knows that you can lose at the high ground. Darth-Mall had better high-ground, even. And Obi-Wan did this exact maneuver that Anakin tries to pull on him and does it successfully. against Darth Mall,

Anakin doesn't have those ups. If he could jump a little higher, maybe, if he had the Nike's on. It's a very clear explanation of why the neutral zone role is so aggressively enforced now beneath the knot. For sure, it's like,

whoof, that is, you do not want to have a guy down there. Because Anakin gets cut in half. It's pretty brutal. I did not realize, also, I mean, that would have had to have been quite the sweep to go from like

arm to legs. to leg Yeah And then you're thrown back He like actually gets rejected From the jump right Like he's jumping toward Toward Obi-Wan

Obe one cuts him in half And his torso The upper half of his body Lands basically Back where he started Just by the lip of the lava flow Right? Yeah

Yeah It's brutal I'm just saying I think Anakin Anakin by this point He's wearing his like all black Nike

his all-black ones, and he should have had on the Jordans. He should have had all the Jordans. If he had on the Jordans, things would have been different. The Air Forces aren't going to get you there. This is what a goth stage will do to you. That's true.

The goth stage will fuck you up. Yeah, and he just cuts him. That cut is... Thank you. Good, yes. It was a joke. It was a joke. Parity, parody, parody. Maybe if the Jedi had encouraged him in his goth phase.

Yeah, actually true. You can be a Jedi and a god. Yeah. Yeah, that was their mistake. So, I do that, the thing I do look kind of like here, though, is it's not, nothing's well written in this scene, but the way he is just still, just animated by pure hatred, trying to crawl toward Obi-1 to, like, try and kill him with his last breath. Yes.

He's horrifying. Again, we get a horrifying moment of, like, his skin and clothes igniting from the heat of the lava. And still, just being fixated on Obi-Wan and, like, screaming, I hate you. He's not crawling to safety. He's crawling to kill Obi-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W. And it's unbelievable. Yeah, the I hate you is a dagger. It's excursuiting.

If Hayden Christensen nailed one thing, it's that one line in all these movies. Losing a friendship sucks. I guess also having a friend catch fire and immediately having their hair burn off and... Yeah. So I will say, as you know, I had not seen this movie. I knew a lot of the memes. I never seen the whole scene play out. I didn't realize how gnarly what happens to Anakin really is.

I had not been fully good I was like okay so like some of his extremities hit some lava during this fight not his hatred and the lava

just caused his whole body to be consumed in fire and he has left a burning husk of himself by Obi-Wan I was worse than I had in his pain but also really good yeah

it's I mean I think Ewan McGregor gives a pretty good performance of some pretty shit lines of just like just the devastation of having completely lost someone you love and I still don't understand though why he would not do him like out of respect to the person he was why he would do him the courtesy of just ending it. Yeah. Do you think he's scared still? That's why you bring a blaster. That's why you bring a blaster. I agree with you. A more civilized weapon.

I think also there's to an extent, there's a certain point where you just have to step back and watch someone get exactly what they deserve. And I think Obi-Wan has kind of hit that point with Anakin. Like, I think there are a lot of ways

that Anakin has been failed. set up to fail throughout this series. But I also think so many of his issues with these people around him are that he is just self-centered enough, just self-absorbed enough that like the way he reaches out and the way he like tries to express his needs make a lot of the people around him reflexively not want to respond to him in the way he wants. And I think it's one reason why the whole

romance arc with Padmae never feels right is he feels creepier more than he does attractive or seductive. I'm sorry, Natalie, it's true, it's real. I mean, I've said that all of Anakin's sexiest moments have not been with Padamade. They've been in other moments.

With other characters and a heat source in the room. Sweaty Anakin. You heard a bigger Luke. So, but I do think, like, one of the things with Anakin is that he does a lot of things to estrange people from him and to alienate them from, like, where he's at. And then sort of spins that around as confirmation that he is unappreciated, that he doesn't have people. And it, I think, you know, as you're sort of pointing out earlier, Austin, like,

he does have people. It's just, he doesn't get everything he wants. Like, there is sort of a consistent, uh, self-absorbed entitlement to him that a lot of people are responding to, because it is real. And we know him better to realize that there are real places of pain and discomfort that this is coming from. But the face he shows to people is worrying. And we know, a lot of times throughout these final two movies and I think there at the end when he's sort of screaming

I hate you at Obi-Wan I think one of the horrifying things is to an extent it's pretty believable that that was always there that like the Anakin who in that final scene with Obi-Wan just trying to apologize

and build that bridge is still a crumbling facade over this real well-spring of hatred and jealousy and resentment. I think my read

is that he is more conflicted than that. But I don't, but that's, I want to be clear all of this stuff. The fact that, like, I also feel like the reason Obi-Wan doesn't can't do it is because he can't bring himself

to get that kill in. I feel like he can't do it by his own hand. He doesn't have it in him at this point to have done the one hit and then I have to go up and do the two hit to get the win. My read on that is also that I just don't think he can do it. But both of those reads, Anakin as still conflicted throughout this film until it's too late,

are just based on interpretation of just like acting and script. And I don't think that your read is completely supportable, given the things he is. Again, I think it goes back to that thing of so many responses to this movie where how does he become so evil so quick? And it's like, are we talking about the same Anakin? Aniken's Bin had problems. And what we're deciding to count as not evil is very telling, you know?

Yeah. It's generous. Yeah. I do think that there, I wonder if there's something about Anakin that knowing his, thinking of the people that he's held close and lost, like his mother. like Quigon, is there a part of him that maintains distance for fear of, like, the repercussions? Like, I don't know. Does he just self-isolate? I mean, with Padme, it's like, this is the only person he really has an intimacy with, but I don't know.

Because he still wants to be, he still tries. he still wants to be a part of he's still like i don't know i feel like that gap is external because um like what you were saying before about the like pressure of knowing that he's the chosen one it also affects how people treat him and it's like why it's really sad that obi won brings it up in this conversation too because it's like obi one should be able to see him outside of what that expectation is and for aniken it creates the situation of like oh i there are things in the world that are not being fixed and I've been told that I can be an agent of change in that way but nobody gives me that access and for for the Jedi it's you know we think of this thing about this person but because

of it we have to keep him at arm of length because we don't know what else to do with him so like yeah I mean that that explains Anakin's hatred in that moment it's like fuck you you told me I had to be this thing and I so desperately wanted to fulfill that for you and yet I like every door was was closed to me or I just nobody could place trust in me or like fuck this entire thing that I was taken from my home planet to go be brought into I don't know is that I hate you like I hate you to the whole system that he's been indoctrinated into like is that I don't know. When you, I hadn't thought about the chosen one line in that moment, but to speak to him as, you know, as in that moment as you were supposed to fulfill this role rather than you were my, you know, speaking more to, he says it once, but speaking more to you were my friend, I loved you, whatever, like, why fall back on the expectation that destroyed him? I don't know I think that's kind of cruel it just speaks to some of the sadness

of like the way that people perceive Anakin right and the way that they can't like treat him otherwise that like even the love that he has from Obi-Wan is attached to this like but I thought you were going to do something for me despite never doing anything for you which is like a little dramatic

because Obi-Wan does a little stuff for Anakin has done a lot of shit for Anakin yeah uh-huh I think that line is probably the forefront of Obi-Wan's mind because the entire Jedi order was just killed and, like, literally, like, he was their chosen one. So, they escape most of our, and we see some really ineffectual neonatal care. I love this droid, just showing up, and the droid is like, there's nothing medically wrong with her.

I think she just lost the world to live. I'm sorry, they programmed, they programmed a medical droid to just recognize, like, you know, this person's just lost her. will live. Vibes are off. On Earth, got to go. It's so silly. The actor can't heal this. There's nothing I can do.

What's up with the birthing droid? It's just like making calming noises, but like in a different language. And like, what is happening there? That whole scene is so weird. Does it say like droid language or something? No, but it's just like, Ubiwa, uva, uva, uva. Our scientists have discovered these most comforting noises. I thought it was announcing the genders in droid language.

Like, here's an Ubi-Wa, here's an Ubi-Woo. That's what I... Oh, that's very funny. The entire Jedi order dies. It's a boy. That's how I interpret it. Because it like picks it up and is like, here it is. Um, and then, uh, Anakin gets re-paired by, yeah, I, I don't like the dual birthing scenes here.

Like, I understand what's happening, but I don't think that it's successful as what I'll say. It's really poorly conceived. You know what I do like, though, is there's a high-pitched noise of the air seal forming around Anakin's, uh, mask that's like, it sounds good. Like, you can tell he's really being. just sealed in there and like nope no more natural air for you uh you're just going to live in this live in this tomb yeah no i i i yeah it's good i just i don't like it against pad may's labor no and again like even here i feel like they're still trying to explain some things in the final

uh in return of the jenni where like lea has a memory of her mom being sad well undeniably padmay's real sad but also her last words are there is still and she's she's saying as she expires they're still good in him and this is the thing that luke will remember um and so each of the children have uh half of the memory of their mom's last moments and indeed luke at this point is sort of tragically recast as his life is going to be defined by this need to prove his mom's dying hope for aniken correct um and that he is going to put it on the line to prove that this this truth that he feels deeply in turn of the Jedi is is correct and it's sort of yet another like planted belief maybe to an extent

why separate them because they're cruise missiles and if you put them both in the same place it's easier for the emperor to find them and kill them presumably also sorry because this is because the answer is because in a new hope I know They're separated, and so they have to juice up some fucking reason here, right? It's weird. It doesn't seem like they fully have a plan to use these kids as, like, the weapons to undo what's been done here. But at the same time, once, like, certainly my reading of A New Hope is that once Obi-Wan sees a message from Leia, and Luke is the one bringing it to him, it's like the moment you realize. Holy shit, the prophecy.

Right. Or something, the force at the very least. It might not be the prophecy, but the force does the shit. Either way, you got a runner. We got a live one here. Yeah. But in the time between, it's just, we got to wait and we've to buy it our time. I mean, listen, the rebellion kicks up.

Leia is part of that, you know. So, in some ways, Leia is the one who does get put in the position to be a more direct, raised to be the most direct weapon against the empire, because, you know, she ends up being an important part of the galactic republic or the galactic uh rebellion um so yeah versus luke who is a farmer who is a farmer and a tinkerer who actually kind of like doesn't have to worry about who actually is going to go to school to become a tie fighter pilot that's his dream at the beginning of star wars is to go join the imperial navy so that is how i probably didn't get obi fired up to do some jennie training god are you kidding me yeah oh hey crazy ben how you doing crazy ben

Uh, I'm pretty bored here. I just hope I get to go to the Academy next year. I so badly, I've killed so many Wamp Rats in my T-16. Uh, yeah. I just know they'd put me in one of the cool Thai interceptors. For real. Hey, it's not explaining this why there aren't any clones. No.

All right. What do you mean? Come, come New Hope. Oh, oh, wow. Aren't they troopers? The implication is that. The implication I thought was always that troopers were just dudes.

Troopers are just dudes. Yeah. Yeah. They're all individual people. Like, stormtroopers are not clones. So what the fuck happened to the clones? I guess we'll find out, but I always started to see what we explained in this movie.

In order 67. That's right. That's right. In Rogue One. Mm-hmm. There are no clones. There are stormtroopers at that. point.

I would imagine that there might be still some clones interspersed maybe at that point, but it's been 20 years by right now. So I bet a lot of those people have, I don't know, there is a canon answer. I don't think, my guess is it's not universal. Where would we fight? And then all the clones, by the end of Clone Wars or Badbatch, which is starting up in three weeks, right? which follows a group of clones

during this turnover period. Yeah. Interesting. So, with all of that, the mysteries of the Sith's revenge have finally been revealed to us. I don't know.

Like, I feel like my final take on this movie is just that it, to me, it feels like the most prequel trilogy of this bunch. Like, I'm, like, it's, I still don't know if it's my favorite of the bunch.

I think there's, I think there's... Of the prequels? You think attack is higher? Or phantom menace? I think I still might prefer phantom menace, just as a... Really? Yeah. Couldn't be...

I think there's so many... Same. I don't know, like, so many moments in this that I'm like, conceptually they're cool. I just don't think the movie brings them out. Like, Order 66 is underwhelming. How much do you like Shonen? Not at all.

I was thinking about this during that big final fight, scene and how much it feels like the moment in any shown in anime where the former friends become rivals and have to fight each other down to the bit where their hands go like boom and they're like pushing force energy between them and they go back differently. I know. I was like, hold hands. Right. If only.

This is very, this so much feels like partially, I talked about this, I think, during our Attack of the Clones episode, that it felt like it was in response to a change in expectation because of the Matrix movies of what high-scale action looks like, this also so much feels like a thing not inspired by, but in conversation with the then-emerging theatrics of shonen anime, of shows like Dragon Ball Z and Naruto and et cetera. Maybe not Naruto. I think Naruto is probably a little bit ahead in terms of time release for the West. But I do think that, like, what you're seeing is that shift towards super high energy kinetic, like, combat that you find in movies around this time is a big change.

And certainly, the Matrix is pulling from anime, 1,000 percent. And so there's that direct line is the way you get there, right? Yeah. So. I do have to say that I think Phantom Menace, when I think about our first. like the first 20 minutes of Phantom Menace and like our conversation about that. There was there's so much in that movie

that's gestured towards that like pikes my curiosity and has me asking a lot of questions. Like why is this? Why is that? Like what does this mean? And I think that is to the movies. That's probably the best thing that the movie does because I don't enjoy really much else of the film at all.

but like everything all the larger systems and questions that phantom menace gesture towards are really interesting i i had a better time watching revenge of the sith but i don't know that i had as many questions like i feel like i don't know i don't know what i walk away from revenge of the sith with other than like source material for Clone Wars the show like how does Clone Wars the show take the characters of Grievous and Dugu and the clones and you know Anakin and Obi-Wan and everyone else and give them the you know past two years

that they deserve to have like those moments matter but yeah it's it's difficult yeah it's tough because like the the things that are supposed to matter here are your emotions towards the original trilogy right like the purpose of this year is being like damn Darth Vader

I remember that guy he was evil it sucks that this happens but like the phantom menace gets to benefit from being a chapter one in that way because all chapter three has to offer you is like well Luke and layer are going to be there in the future and like that's you know it's just a it's an off ramp to something else instead of like really letting Anakin and Obi-Wan and Pad may even like exist as their own characters here

instead of being you know a bridge I think one of the things that really took me by surprise watching this is actually how much of a piece it feels with Rise of Skywalker and I think so much of that is because it is now doing so much work to connect up its own plot threads with what's coming that I think it ends up being less satisfying than the other two movies because like so much of its so much of its payoffs are watch this next trilogy that comes like here's here's where all this stuff came from and I think this is what reminded me of

revenge of the Seth and that revenge of the set not Revenge of the Seth rise of Skywalker is so heart set on bringing this all full circle back to where all this began and that's also unsatisfying because we are, so many of us were ready for this to move on into a new direction and Revenge of the Sith Rise of Skywalker refuses to let that happen.

Revenge of the Sith had no choice. It had to fill this role but I also think that means like, you know, to Natalie's point about leaving with a lot of unsatisfying questions. It's because it had destinations that had to get to. It just didn't have a real good map. Yeah. I get this. I just want to say, I hated watching Attack of the Clones. I hated watching most of the Phantom Menace. I mostly enjoyed my time with this film. And like, if I'm judging it on the merits of which I'd rather watch again this moment, it would be Revenge of the

Sith each time. Each time. Allie just left the call. Allie was like, not me. Peace. I'm done. Allie's back. Hi, Allie. I think you're all right about the, or I think there's a big difference between this and Rise of Skywalker for me, which is a lot of things, which is like, Rise of Skywalker does just as bad by its characters, except to more characters. I think Rise of Skywalker does as bad to Finn and frankly to Ray and Kylo as this movie does to Padman. and that's like none what I'm talking about like roads and with none of the excuses and with none of the excuses there could have been anything Ryan Johnson teed it up for you motherfucker hundred percent right exactly and so like I don't even there's not even that sense that it needed to wrap around in that way and they

still wanted it to so like I don't think those for me those two things aren't comparable at all and I said this before about Rise of Skywalker I left Rise of Skywalker with nothing to chew on and I I I think you're right that Attack of the Clones and Phantom Menace both set up more here, but I still leave this thing that the ambiguity in our reads of characters like Anakin and Obi-Wan is, and even thinking about the ambiguity of things like, were the clones pre-programmed or not, that is, Lucas could have put in a scene that says, turn on your biochips and kill all the Jedi or whatever instead. And I think the ambiguity is the point in a real way,

because I think this is a film that end up at a prequel trilogy that ends up being about the unpredictable ways in which we fall into into authoritarianism. And I think that that is like a pretty, I think that there's still that stuff to play with and chew on and think through in a way that Rise of Skywalker just nothing. Like, what am I supposed to chew on? Is there another secret emperor base somewhere out in the, in deep space? Why not? Why wouldn't there be at this point?

Why wouldn't he do what Obi-Wan and Yoda did and split his own clones up in more than one place? I fucking hate that movie. It's a bad movie. Yeah. Anyway, I think, yeah. I mean, it says something that this is the longest podcast we've done out of all three. It's that we're bad at podcasts. Yeah, I'm like, I just say something good about the movie or something bad about us.

I don't know. Well, I just be, I think that there's, I think, I think, I think Austin's right. I think the ambiguity of this is what makes me so excited. to continue with the Clone Wars series. And so many of the open-ended questions in like, how did we get here makes... It almost props up the Clone Wars the show even more as value in just what I can get

out of those characters and those relationships and, like, their further development. But, yeah, I... I wouldn't re-watch. I would watch a highlight. I would watch like the first like 30 minutes of Phantom Menace. I would do a generous skip around of Attack of the Clones. But I'd watch all of Revenges of Again.

Well, I think if this movie were better, if it succeeded more thoroughly, we would not be doing this podcast at all. Just like probably this movie had put a better bow on things. I'm not sure the Clone Wars would have had a had a much room to do its own interpretation. I think this is the weird thing. There are so many huge gaps or like just gaping questions left in like what did all this mean, what was actually happening here. The Clone Wars has a lot to explore. And I think if the movie totally buttoned up, I'm not sure you get a multi-season cartoon that has a lot of interesting places to go or can

like be as thematically resonant with its own time that the cartoon is even if like and because this movie doesn't really succeed at tying all the threads together that it wants to play with. I mean, I think that's, so when I think of Star, when I think of my experience watching Star Wars, it's always like, there, I've always had so many gaps, so many questions, there's so much ambiguity, and yet the only answers we get are like to the fucking whack his shit that I don't give a shit about. Like, when I think about, like, and that's why, you know, here's Chewbacca.

Well, I get why, because you said the whole thing about, you know, this being the last movie. But, like, the R2D2 thing in, like, Phantom Menace, or, like, those kinds of, the answers to the most mundane things about the world itself is, like, it's all, like, this person was in this place at this time. It's like, those aren't the question. aren't the ambiguities in the gray spaces that I'm so curious about.

So, I just think that... I think what you're describing is a choice. Like, I think that you're 100% right that, like, Lucas isn't particularly interested in explaining... Like, Lucas has written... Lucas knows what the Wills are, right?

They're written down in a book somewhere. But no motherfucking character in any of his movies has ever said the Wills did this or that. I think he wants to retain. that degree of separation. And it can be frustrating for sure. I think it's probably, and there's an arc coming up in Clone Wars that we'll get to,

that I think shows the risk of giving more direct answers to the like philosophical and metaphysical questions that bug us about this. I think it's to its merit because I honestly don't think that when I think of these movies, the prequel and the original trilogy, it's like a. scaffolding. Like, everything is in place, but there's, you don't have like the walls and the filling behind it to really get the whole picture. And I think that if, when Lucas does try to deliver on the whole picture, it falls so flat.

It, I mean, you see it. You don't, but you see it in the relationship between Anakin and Padme. He's trying to tell this, this story about, you know, this metaphor about American politics and nationalism. And it just, it dies on poor performance and poor writing. And so I'm like, I get why he's not trying because it probably wouldn't be that good.

But the gestures and the, and are at least compelling enough to want us to make me want to look for more. whether that's in books or in the Clone Wars the show or us, you know, our own fan theories and stuff like that. Yeah.

But you're right. That's totally why I think it gets its claws in people is you leave it with questions and your promised answers in some deep A.U book. Yeah. And you can leave us with questions for our next page

background backer Q&A. I have to say first, thanks to we are 12 minutes away from the dog feeding time so all hell's breaking loose right now. I have to say first of all, thanks to everyone has supported us so far, but I do have to call out that a lot of people seem to get real interested in hearing

Austin hit his limit with us on this podcast on a previous Q&A. Like we said so many times, we have fun Q&A shows. It's a good time. Come check it out. Send us your questions. The minute we were like, hey, You want to watch a man's spirit get broken?

People are like, sign me the fuck up. Like, we have a lot of sado backing happening this month, IMO. But for those of you who are pure of heart, you can back us at patreon.com slash civilized. In two weeks, we'll be back with another episode for the regular public feed. We'll be dealing with the Blue Shadow arc, which starts as kind of a chemical weapons horror story and ends with a trip to never.

land? It's weird. Oh, that's that arc. Right. I forgot where that goes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, the solution to the VX gas that's gotten loose in the Nabu Chemical Weapons Emporium is to find the Lost Boys who live behind the haunted asteroid belt. This is what happens when someone your writer's room, I guess, finishes reading the Amber Spyglass trilogy and it's just like moves straight into scripting an episode. Anyway, until the next episode, the next time someone tells you the tragedy of Darth Plague is the wise, ask us to see some peer-reviewed research before committing anything that could jeopardize your career or your relationships.

I've seen some tweet threats. Listen, it's got to be fine. I don't know. We're going to be able to be. I don't know what I'm going to be able to be.