A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 27: The Mortis Arc (Clone Wars 59 - 61)

Episode Date: January 19, 2022

Here it is, finally, the episode the Jedi Council didn't want you to hear! After a bout of illness and other scheduling hurdles (you might notice Austin isn't recording with this usual mic - sorry!), we have finally sat down to talk through the Mortis arc. You can support the show and gain access to a monthly Q&A cast by going to patreon.com/civilized NEXT TIME: Episodes 62 - 64 ("The Citadel," "Counter Attack," & "Citadel Rescue") Show Notes Major Deaths: The Daugther? The Son?? The Father???? Is any of this real????????? The Son Talks to Darth Revan and Bane Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Alicia Acampora Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)  

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Clone Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zakni, joined by Ali Akampura, Austin Walker, and Natalie Watson. This week, things are taking a turn for the weird and the mythological as we tackle the Mordas arc. The 15th through 17th episodes of the third season. Let me just sketch out this whole arc real quick because it's at once incredibly simple in terms of overall plot. And then dense with details that we're going to have to discuss as we go along. So the premise for this is that the Jedi have received a distress called, this is the most Star Trek, Star Trek-ass setup I've ever seen for Four Wars episode, by the way.

Oh yeah, the next generation goes to this well like two times a season. The difference is that it's not a show as much about long-term character change. This is the sort of planet everywhere. I mean, you know what? Yeah, this is a Star Trek three-partly based on the outcome. Yeah. So the Jedi receive a distress call using an antique Jedi code. Anakin, Asoka, and Obi-One are sent to investigate

and are immediately hoovered up into an enormous floating pyramid that's basically the thing from the end of the Tom Cruise movie, Oblivion, they awakened to find themselves, man, if this had an M83 score. That would be kidding. Elevated. See, I also thought another Star Trek thing here, it's like a Borg cube twisted a little bit, you know? It didn't give anyone Holocron vibes. It does have Holocron vibes.

It does have Holocon vibes. Okay. Or Slubing, you take it, that's a Borg Cube. Turn it so you're examining it from one of the vertices, and you're like, oh my God, What's that fucked up pyramid thing? So they awakened to find themselves in an eerie forest inside the space station or planetoid. And it has three residents. A Force Wizard dad named Mortis and his two children, a daughter who embodies the light and a son who embodies the dark.

The daughter has crawled out of a Zelda cutscene and the son just wants to go out clubbing, but his dad won't give him the key. Hireman Hot Topic boyfriend, insta vegan girlfriend. Mortis holds their energies in balance but is weakening and wants Anakin to take over for him as his children's keeper because Anakin is the chosen one. All of this makes sense. But Anakin rejects this offer and the three Jedi move to depart. Naturally at that point, all hell proceeds to break loose. The son kidnaps Asoka and turns her toward the three Jedi move to depart. the dark side. In the preceding

showdown, Asoka steals an enchanted blade from Obi-Wan gives it to the sun only to be immediately killed by him. He attempts to slay his father, but his sister steps in front of the attack and he mortally wounds her. In his guilt, he flees and the daughter uses

the last of her magic to give her life force back to Asoka. The father warns that the son will attempt to flee this planet and get loose in the wider universe and they should leave before he can make his escape. Anakin does not do this. Instead, Anakin decides he's going to solo the son.

And in the wildest twists in this trilogy of episodes, the son grants him a vision of his future turn to the dark side to turn Anakin to the dark side. The father breaks the hold of the dark side of the dark side, Anakin, by erasing the vision from Anakin's memory. then in a showdown of the sun he kills himself with the aforementioned enchanted blade which also kills the sun

of the source of the sun's power as the sun is fatally weakened Anakin does the thing stabs him through the back with his lightsaber and with that the space station seems to collapse and the three Jedi find themselves back on the same shuttle they were on before the

adventure began having the exact same conversation over the radio with Rex New Lauren time has passed for anyone else, but the three Jedi are left shaken by what each experienced and learned over the course of their lost weekend. So,

they didn't want us to make this episode, Rob. We should just say up top. There have been many things. Mortis has conspired against us to record this. I'm traveling. Oh, that's what I said. That's what was the funny thing I said yesterday. It was. So I just quoted you.

Oh, thank you. I just want to mention that gets rightly attributed to me. When we last tried to record this podcast and the will of the force tried to intercede is it because we have is it because our takes are too good or too bad that they didn't want us to talk?

Too good, too good. I think like the show just knew that if we tried to square all this with our understandings of the force so far we would record a 12 hour episode that like undoes the foundations of Star Wars. It's like dogma really the movie where like

Like, this is us disproving the will of the force. Yeah. And I got COVID, so. And I got the flu for a while. The Jedi gave Natalie COVID. I'm not in the country right now. It's a lot. It's a lot, you know.

Sometimes, y'all, I'm proud of us. Like, we, it's been a year, like, a little retrospective moment. It's been, like, a year, a little over a year. Yeah. we have very rarely rescheduled a recording yeah like we very rarely missed a week outside of like us taking a holiday week or what like our usual break our scheduled break our scheduled breaks like um I'm proud of us like I can't say that I'm like good at good at keeping plans like that as a human being like if we mean make plans today for like a month from now, who knows? I don't know if I'm going to be in a month. Yeah, but we've done this. But we've done this and I just think that's very epic of us, so. True. Do you know who else is real good at keeping plans?

None of the evil one. None of the evil one. No, I was going to say, actually, there's like a literal specific person to shout out about this, which is, it is Lynn Hale. who is a member of Lucas' film who is the person who got Liam Neeson and Prunella August for this episode to two elements we kind of skipped over the first one here quickly Quigon Jin and Shemish Skywalker both show up in this first episode I think you're going to talk about those for like probably half the runtime of this episode

okay well because Quigon is dropping bombs dropping bombs what like what's Quigon up to I don't trust him anymore I don't trust him. Maybe the first place to actually truly start here is do we think this happened? Because this is like one of the big conversations around this episode. And when you talk to Filoni about it, I don't have any Faloni zones to drop in, but I've transcribed all of them. They're all very long and dry. They're not like very like, we'll talk about the content of those zones.

Yeah. I thought these would be the absolute most unhinged Pheloni zones that we'd seen so far, just based on the arc. They're very zeroed in. on saying specific things. He's very defensive about these episodes in terms of what he's willing to say. And core to that is again and again and again throughout these.

He's very big on talking about like, is this an allegory? Is this real? When we were in production, we talked a lot about thinking about it like when Luke goes in the tree and Empire Strikes Back. Did that really happen?

Or is this just the realm of poetics and myth? So I'm curious for y'all, when you think about the set of episodes, Is it just like, yeah, this stuff all just happened, and then they got zipped back in time. But, like, they met all those people. Those people are all real people. Those aren't just, like, allegories, literal allegory. I mean, they are allegories for us, but they weren't just, like, mythical constructions made by some ancient force thing.

They're real people, question mark. I think it's real. He went there. Yeah. There are three people. There is the father, the son, and the daughter. They each represent an aspect of the force with the father being balanced. Like, this is all true stuff that's real.

Why not? Yeah. I'm not pushing back on that because that's kind of how I feel. For me, like, for me, it's like, like, squaring with broader Star Wars, that's going to get trickier. But for me, it's, like, all real in that it's like, it's real in the sense that you can be, a sailor in the regular normal world and you wash up in the tempest on Sparrow's Island and that shit still happens right like character is still character like motivation action all these things still exist yes it is allegory it is all it is all magical but at the same time like it's also real

it's just like sort of a parallel realm that like crucially only has this one tangential like connection to mainline star wars and then that's where it's going to be unsatisfying for people who want to make, like, how does this all fit together? I think by its very nature, it is, this is a tangential point. They connect at one point. I don't think the rules laid out in Mortisland. Really, I don't think they bear, like, a whole lot of significance for, like, our understanding of Star Wars beyond this arc.

But I think it's an interesting arc. Yeah, it's hard to imagine that, like, the death of the daughter is the reason we lost the clone wars. Right. Right. Like, there's a lot, a lot of people fucked up in order for us to lose the clone wars. Like, it's not just because the daughter died or whatever. But I do think it represents, like, a general shift in the force at large.

Like, I think the force, as we conceptualize it, is this, like, malleable, moving, oscillating thing that's like constantly going between like you know between different degrees of light and dark and all this kind of stuff so I think it's like possible that there's a shifting in the universe in general towards more yeah it's like a reflection of the state of the world like there is more war there is more famine there is more like more people are being enslaved to cross the universe, it feels like, because of the consequences of this intergalactic war, I think, you know, quote unquote, the light dying is, or the daughter dying, is, like, reflective of the kind of universe state.

I think there's that to me, sorry, Rob, you actually had something a second ago. It looked like. No, I was just, like, I was just going to say, like, shout out to one of my favorite video games of all time, the Last Express. where like the end of it is the firebird that like has been this harbinger of war and destruction like since ancient times in the fiction of this game escapes and world war one breaks out right but the last express doesn't draw the connection of because this thing escaped world war one broke out it escapes because at like like sort of as above so below type relationships right where like

these two arcs they're like two different clocks that sort of like mirror one another and like they sweep toward the same, they sweep into alignment at the same moment. It's not causality, it's actually a parallelism like going. A lot of that ends up being, how do we interpret the father, the son,

and the daughter? At the beginning of this episode, or once we get a little bit of info on them, does this come from Quigon when he describes what they are? Or does this come from them directly? I think they just, I don't think Quigon said,

like, Quigon mostly tells. Yeah. Obi-Wan. let's let me just say what they are first which is um uh we get the place is a conduit this is what quagon says is yes it is a conduit okay so i guess two important things one they go beyond the outer rim that's where this is this is past the outer rim we're in kind of the unknown regions of space i believe the unknown regions there might be another different name for this part but i think this isn't the

unknown reasons we're in the metaphor sector right yeah exactly it is this place is a condoing it through which the entire force of the universe flows, the planet is both an amplifier and a magnet and then we learn that they are, or the way that they are framed, they are framed, is that they are

force users, quote unquote, or anchorites. Angerites is used lowercase a in just the, it's just the word, not a capital, it's not a proper noun here. And anchorite is like a hermit. It's like someone who removes themselves in a religious context from society.

So not necessarily a monk, you don't necessarily go to a monastery. Maybe you just go live out in the woods somewhere and do a bunch of spiritual practice. And as the father describes it, they are people who have gone beyond the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith. They're much closer to the mastery of the forest than anyone else. But it's also very easy to read them as stand-ins for the various sides of the forest. And I think some fans do that and say, okay, the father is balanced, the sun is dark, the daughter is the light. And then you do get into the thing that we're talking about,

which is like, is what happens here, does what happen here touch the galaxy, or is this a place that reflects what's happening outside, or is it neither of those things? And it's just a powerful planet with some powerful people on it, and it doesn't actually, it happens to overlap in this moment, but there's no actual, there's not even the causal relationship of what happens here technically reflecting. It just happens to reflect it.

And I think that that ends up being where a lot of people end up on different sides on this. Because there are people who really love these episodes in a way or like the episodes and read them as this is like they're touching the fucking force. This is the force as real as it's ever been. And here is Anakin Asoka and Obi-Wan like revealing themselves inside of it in a way, which gets tricky. But also, Obi-Wan does at one point say, Anakin, the planet is the force. use it so yeah I guess oh sorry go ahead Ellie well I was just gonna say I like quite gone saying that it's like a conduit right because you think of it as more of like you know a relationship where there's a push and pull between the the universe at large and

everything else where it's like the force power quote unquote is filtered through this place quote unquote and you know it affects the people outside of it Yeah. And it affects the world in very direct ways, which we, every day is a season, moving from spring to winter. Every, there are rocks floating around, huge rocks floating around that no one seems to mention. Can we circle back to this toward the end of the discussion as well? Yeah, that makes sense. Once we go through, like, the way things sort of reset at the end, I think that will further maybe sort of zero in on exactly what's happening here. for me there's nothing too interesting happening in these episodes until the three visions

like in some ways I love the structure of these episodes and the three visions that the three Jedi received during their first night they get separated or is anacin self by himself I don't remember exactly how they wind up yeah yeah yeah what is it um anikin's at the temple because he went to go talk to mortis and got the like big lord dump and then Asoka and obiq and obi one dot trapped behind the wall thing. Right. Oh, they find a cave to hang out in. Yeah.

Classic. Yeah. Because there's a big bat demon out there trying to get them. And like hell rain or something. Yeah. Hell rain. Sure. So, yeah, I think it's, yeah, the boulder falls down because the brother is like

causing some shenanigans and wants to separate them. Right. The daughter is like, don't leave the spot any. Like, don't go anywhere, buddy. And he's like, okay, and then he immediately leaves and goes to the temple to find out what the fuck is going on on this planet. And then, yeah, and Obi-Wan and Asoka are in this cave together. And they're, I think, just sleeping, and they have their whole individual visions. But it seems like they're all kind of happening concurrently.

I love the detail that as they go along, they notice that every day is. a year in this place that like morning is springtime and then as the afternoon wanes like it's it's autumnal it's it's really cool as that all unfolds but yeah so like each of them sort of receives a visitor or vision uh during the night and each sort of carries a a a warning or a threat And so, yeah, I think, like, who's the first one? Is it? Quigon. It must be Quigon.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, because he, yes, because he explains the planet a little bit. And, yes, Liam Neeson. That's wild. I didn't realize that. I'm surprised how much this affected me. Yeah? Like, Obi-Wan asking for approval just gutted me, where, like, basically, like, have I done well?

Like, I did my best. Like, I was surprised how touching I found that. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I, it is interesting how much Quagon has hung over this series and hangs over the entire prequel. We know that that's like a core to it. Like, he made a big call and Obi-Wan is kind of under that, the desire to do right by that. And, yeah, getting, getting that brief moment together is so, so good.

And it's, it raises a lot of questions still in the sense of like, to, you know, you have the literal, there's the literal question of like, oh, is Quigon even really there? Or is this someone fucking with him? Or is this him just projecting his stuff? But I think at the heart of it, focusing on that, that the ways in which Obi-Wan is constantly like looking up and looking down in that scene is, is emoting in a place of, you know, he's the oldest. person here in the in the core group he's the one who's supposed to be the most confident and the one who's like grounding everybody um but he's just kind of a puppy dog in this scene yeah and i really appreciate him like being open with his master because we just he doesn't have a relationship with his master in this show because he's not there uh so getting that is really nice and was sort of made like it's not quite like being made a teenage parent but like it's not that far off either where

like he is a very like young new Jedi when quagon dies and it's sort of his last instructions like hey take care of the kid basically yeah and he's so young in that first movie and he's had to be he's had to adopt this like mentor role probably before he felt up to it and that vulnerability comes through here so beautifully where it's like only here do we sort of see the edifice of Obi-Wan as sort of annoyingly cocksure you know

older brother that sort of crumbles and basically he's someone who's like I'm responsible for this kid and I have no idea if I'm doing good cut to that kid like twisting and turning in bed all shook up

I mean that's what I really like about the three of these scenes especially happening concurrently because it is about all of them are about mentorship, right? It's Obi-Wan being like, I lost my mentor too soon, and in his footsteps, I don't feel confident. And then Asoka being like, is the mentor you're following the best thing for you? Is he a bad influence on you?

And then Anakin, obviously, the lack of his mother, and like, what did that parental relationship being cut do to him? Mm-hmm. the the one with asoka that's her talking to an older version of herself right which is fascinating this sort of sui generis like deliverance yeah her voice actors did a really good job doing old asoka and young asoka in that scene i was really impressed by it agreed uh that's where she is she is she basically straight up says like you know be careful with anakin aniken is leading you to some places that you will not get out of if you continue being his pupil and continue being

the way you are in terms of your willingness to like follow him and rush like him headfirst into dangerous situations like you got to be a little more careful kid yeah which is interesting and she she's the fact that it's her talking to herself like she's it, one, points to kind of this foreboding self-reliance that she'll, like, when you, when you think about seeing her, the potential of seeing her later in life, like, what that, what a lonely existence that probably ends up being. But as well, like, even at this young age, in the past, however much time she's been with Anakin, I don't know where we are in Star Wars time right now. But the fact that she's already aware that Anakin is different,

she doesn't really deny what older Asoka is saying. She does deny feeling seeds of the dark side planted by your master. But she does say immediately after that, he is like no other Jedi. Like, she knows that there's something very different about Anakin. And, I mean, that has to be just unbelievably confusing for a young Padawan to, like, feel like you're in this extremely regimented, extremely structured cult. but your mentor is like it feels like

divergent from that is that something that you actually crave like with Quygon like Quygon being such a different having such a different perspective and wanting to break free of a lot of the Jedi tradition

like is that something you know Obi-Wan was drawn to or is it something to be feared? Is it something that you know you're playing with fire? And I think something's so key

there is like her awareness or like gut level feeling that there's something different about him but what's so isolating is the way the Jedi train people is you get such a narrow frame of reference. On some level she feels it but she doesn't have enough

comparative information to like know it. And it's this like it's like this like intuiting versus like being able to prove that like this is where Assoca is kind of stuck is this vision sort of cuts through all of that it's like no one it's the classic Jedi like search your feelings like you know something is wrong here and this like it is

like you know in something like dark mentor stories the thing that like troubles the trainee so much is that you just don't Your mentor is your mentor. You don't have many. Like, Plokoon is there.

Yoda is there. But, like, the whole system's telling you this person is the person who's going to be watching after you and you, like, learn from them. And also, don't become attached to them. Like, don't. Like, just, like, hearing that all said out loud is, like, it is really putting, putting Padawans under, like, just almost an impossible task of like okay here is like your one person to essentially like imprint on and this will be your constant companion this will be your family figure every family figure to you it will be every teacher figure to you it is one person but if you develop any attachment to

them you are done you're done up you fit it wrong totally the other thing that I dig that this episode keys on is when Anakin receives his vision I think it's weird because it's such a central part of the movie but I feel like frequently the massacre of the sand people does not fully get its due in terms of what it has done to Anakin that like it's treated as like this original sin in some ways like a thing that he did totally but like what I like about the vision he receives his mother is that he's got these two great secrets. And one of them is actually the worst one, right?

It's like he has gone against Jedi orders with like getting married and having this relationship, but also nothing about what he then on Tatooine is resolved. He's tormented by guilt because he couldn't save his mom. He's tormented by guilt because in the aftermath of that, he killed a ton of people and has never told anyone, has never been able to process that. And this episode gets that like this is key, this sort of unresolved shame and guilt, and also I think you pointed this out, the last thing we talked about this, when Anakin brings that to Padmae, he is asking for that help.

And Padmae, because it's all very, like, heightened teenage romance in some ways, Padmae is like, no, baby, feel better. Like, let's cling to each other, right? And that's not, like, what he needs. What he needs is, what he needs is, like, a confession. But that moment passes. And it's also, I think, important to note that Anakin's apparition is manipulated against him, right? Oh, absolutely.

So it's looking at, you know, Obi-Wan and Asoka's visions, like, you could, I would probably guess that because they're on such, like, a force-sensitive planet, like, they're able to have these. um i don't know quote unquote true visions um whereas anikins although i think for him he is speaking to his own truth what is on the other side of it is not actually a reflection of him it's a manipulation by the brother right but that's the thing is the thing about each of these that's so interesting to me and i don't i don't love these episodes but i like these vision a lot, is it does not matter if they're coming from mortis the planet, if they're coming from the force directly, if it's really quagon, if that is the father taking the form of quigone, the sister taking the form of older Asoka and the brother taking the form of

Shmi, because all of them are speaking a certain sort of truth, which is, whether that's drawn on memories that they're able to access or if they really are the people, that is a very Clygon-like message to deliver. The message that Older Assoca delivers is dead on. And frankly, the arc that is represented by the vision that Anakin has of Shmi telling him, you define your own guilt. Your guilt does not define you. You should move past that guilt. You should move past the connection that this, or, I mean, explicitly talks about love as a prison and Padme as a poisoner as someone who is bringing him off of his path towards power and self-control. All of that stuff reflects what will happen with him long term.

It's just, you know, a lot more aggressive and obviously tilted against him. But, you know, in the same way that you can imagine that's the brother talking to him, it's very possible that's something deep and resentful inside of Anakin that feels like terrible, that he is trapped by his love for Padmae. How much more could he do if he was not in love with Padmae? Even with the ways in which it's tangled up with his guilt, he told Padmae about this and did not get held to be accountable, like you just said, Rob.

And so, like, even those two parts of that feeling, his love for her and also his feelings of being, that being the only thing that prevents him from being some other version of him, this deep love for her, Maybe that's a better Jedi, maybe that's someone who could put the past aside or a worse Jedi, someone who could do the things that he thinks are really truly necessary, but he's afraid would put her in harm's way. Like, all of that could totally be deep inside of him. And I really think they hit that part of this storytelling well, where it's not easy to hand-wave it and say, well, those are all just, that's all just manipulation because it's all grounded in real stuff, you know, in all three cases. Yeah.

So, I think from there, like, having done, and I'm with you, Austin, like, I don't love the episodes as much. The visions are awesome. Some of the things they play around, like, the sense of predestination that runs through these episodes is cool. But then whenever it's like, all right, here's what's literally going on, I tend to be a bit underwhelmed. And that becomes, that, like, comes into focus the minute, like, and, like, Fort, Mortis reveals himself. and we get the explanation of like so the force has to be held in balance I brought my two children here

my evil son and my good daughter and we exist here in tension and I'm the balance point and because you're the chosen one we haven't we wonder what that means let me tell you son it means you're literally the chosen one to replace me to not bring balance to the force

but keep balance in the force And babysit my two rancid children. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, you know, this doesn't sound good to you. You don't want to just enter the phantom zone for the rest of eternity to like watch these two shitheads. Well, too bad. They kidnapped your friends. You can only save one.

We don't have many movies here in Mortisland, but Sophie's choice is, it's like on the very limited Plex server we've got. And so like, who's it going to be, Mr. Jeff? who are you who are you going to save and the answer is to prove to prove the hang is the chosen one he's going to sure looks like he rages the fuck out yeah and like choke slams both the children of the force to the ground and does like the kneel before zod thing and mortis is like that's what I was looking for that's the energy I was hoping you would bring and I'm like is it It's wild because when he does his version of it, when the father does it, he just kind of grabs Anakin's lightsaber with his hand and puts it back in the hilt. It's a very calm and graceful thing, even though it's a very big power move.

That is not the energy Anakin is bringing to using his supposed chosen one power. No, not at all. Well, they were really big birds at the time. You're right. To keep in mind. Hey, I have a question about this. Yeah. Did Anakin forget he could do this for the rest of the ark?

I this bothered me forever I hadn't thought about that but that actually pisses me off it pisses me off it's like in a video game where like you beat the shit out of the villain in the first act and then like

aha but that was just a warm up and you can't for whatever reason you just don't have access to any of the same powers but like you did I did it wasn't even close and it was in its sick bird and back for? Why the fuck? Is this been my worst at it now? Just a dude.

He's talking about on your knees and like grer, never, never again. Never again does Anakin get this power? I mean, it's a very powerful power. You know what I mean? Maybe there's something significant about being in the like challenge

circle, the forced challenge circle that he was in or something. Maybe he never wants to pull on that power again. He's like, I don't want to be the chosen one. We don't see this. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But either way, it's like, also, what a lousy sales pitch?

Mortis is like, see? You are the chosen one, so you have to stay here. Who would do that? Who would be down? I wouldn't do it. I can't say I'm married. But you should say, I mean, like, Mordis knows. I have responsibilities.

Yeah. And Mordis is like too bad. You have to stay here and balance the force in this, like, another world where these two awful children exist or or your selfishness yeah your selfishness will haunt you and the galaxy like you meet someone first day they offer you you know a position in their shitty startup and they're like well because you said no the world will end as you know it it's like bro we just met like chill I don't know talk to me about benefits like tell me about I don't know, something else.

Mortis has strong, like, division one football recruiter vibes. Yeah. Just like, look, I see a lot of potential in you, son. But we need an early commit. Yeah. Think about what this might mean for your family, you know? Wink, wink, wink. That's what, Mortis needed to put the bag on the table.

That's exactly right. Mortis had to be like, if you're afraid for what's going to happen to, say, one Padmae, Skywalker. Think about what you could do from here in terms of the way that you could gently nudge on the force to make things different out there. Or like bring her. I don't know.

Just bring her through. Yeah. Y'all been wanting to run away. Yeah. That'd be fine. Just be like, oh yeah, I'll be RB. I got to hop three hyperspace lanes away and then grab her and come back through. That'd be so funny. If like Palpatine's plans start just going to shit for reasons he'd never quite parse, like where the fuck did Anakin?

Like Padmae's gone. Things should be going. swimmingly now. Yeah. And, like, just everything keeps going a little bit wrong, and he turns into, like, the basil faulty of, like, Sith plotters. That would be great. There's something that annoys me about the, like, if you're the chosen one,

you're the only one who can balance the force and, like, be able to use and control the light and the dark side, which is, like, shouldn't every jet egg on some level be able to, like, control the darkness within them? control the light. Because if they can slip and fall into the dark, that means they can use the dark. Yeah. You know? I mean, this ends up being part of my issue with this arc ends up being, we'll talk about the next episode.

I'm going to save it. Okay. Well, let's like, so basically it ends with them being like, we're going to pee. That's the other thing about this series. Yes. Like this episode, they're like, we're leaving. That's the end of the episode. and the next episode is like

we couldn't quite we were just you know the last episode ended us leaving but we're going to go back to like you didn't actually see us get out the door now did you so the next episode

it's going to be something happens at the door and so that's where we leave things Anakin reject this offer and it's not going to come up again the rest of this is not going to be like you know Anakin this kind of proves we need you to balance the force

nope the whole like Anakin you're going to be the pivot point for light and dark we're done with that we're on to some other stuff it really feels caught between wanting to be the episodic series and wanting to do a true arc because the episodic nature of it needs to resolve the core

conflict each time it's just that we're here in the same setting each episode and the lessons of that first arc are just forgotten in a real way or this first episode in this arc are just kind of pushed aside outside of who these people are and where you are that's true yeah

let's take a quick break let me let me let me phillone's down first real quick I'm not going to drop it in. I'm just going to read because I think it's really interesting to think about how these, this is the flungism for this episode. And it begins with him saying overlords is probably one of the most incredible things we've been asked to do on this series. Not in the way of effects necessarily, the way of animation, the visuals, but the story that George laid out for us was something that I think we all as Star Wars fans and lovers of mythology wanted to delve in for a very long time,

which was a much more intensive look at the force and force wielders and how that's used and this whole prophecy of the chosen one and what does that mean? I was actually out of the room for the first, I think, 15 to 20 minutes of George's pitch of these force wielders and I remember coming back in the room and the writers were all just kind of wrapped,

looking up at George and they saw me come in the room and they were like, you got to hear this. And George sent me down and he started explaining me there's these gods and they wield the force and they're much more powerful than any Jedi Knights, and this one turns into a gargoyle, and this one turns into a griffin. And he's just saying this stuff.

And I was like, wow, it's pretty intense. So in the end, Christian Taylor, who wrote it had a tremendous task on his hands. They're trying to figure out, how do I take all these things George just explained and that we've outlined together, how do you put a voice to that into his credit? He did an amazing job.

And the rest of the Flonie Zone is talking about, the woman I said before, Lynn Hale, who's at Lucasfilm, who's been there forever, ever, back to the original trilogy being the person who got Quigon or got Liam Neeson and who got

I already said her name earlier Prunilla, Pernilla August and the way that that happened was basically Lynn went up and saw the footage and it was like oh, not only do we need to get Liam Leeson, we got to get Schmeese original actress in here too sent out the footage to those people

et cetera and then it ends with Faloni being like and you know I got to admit I got to admit the whole time I was working with Quigon or with Liam who didn't need to do this. This was such a nice thing. You know, Matt Wood and I were just sitting there and Liam is saying his lines and he'd say

the name Obi-O-B-Wan and I will admit the fan inside me just looked over at Matt and said that's Quigon. Fucking about Obi-Wan Canobi. Yeah. We got a real live actual that's chappy on our hands, folks. Oh my God.

Real fan moment. Real fan moment. about this stuff coming from George directly and being like, yeah, there's a place called Mortis where there are these gods of the force. So, execution might be iffy, but man, George, not a bad concept guy for generating just like, if you need to run a lightly serialized sci-fi show set in the same universe, George is not a bad guy to have in that writer's room by all accounts. Like, yeah, it goes in some weird directions, but that's been true of

every single person who's ever had that role. Yeah, it's very funny because it's very clear from the Floney Zones on this that the writing team has been dying to get into this shit but won't open the can of worms themselves. And like it even feels a little bit like they're afraid of going to Georgia and be like, hey, could we do like a forced mythology episode? And the way it feels like from hearing him talk about it on these is like, and I also listened to an episode of a podcast that he guessed it on. after these episodes came out

like a fan a fan Star Wars Clone Wars podcast Where before these have Phelone Pheloni Okay Yeah geez Could you imagine if Lucas

That's like a real You're too rich to tweet moment Like Lucas don't go on podcast Please Except for ours Come through Three hours Yeah

The The The way There's a podcast It's like a fan Clone Wars podcast and before he before the episodes came out like at some Star Wars convention Faloni said about the podcast that they were going to need to do like an emergency episode after the Ark ended and they were going to have to like do a super long episode because of all the

theorization about what it means for the truth of the force and then they brought him on uh and they were like so does it mean this and he was extremely like I don't know what do you think it you tell me what you think it means and between those two things really gets the sense across that like there are parts of Star Wars that they feel good about touching first and there are parts that they're like we will not open this door ourselves and like what the force is and how the force works is something that they were extremely let George answer that which makes me super curious about what that relationship is like now and is it just gone now that we're in the Disney years because how often in these episodes again and again do we come back to like George was in the room George explained the trade federation stuff and that dude's just not there anymore on fucking Bad Batch, presumably, right? He's not, like, hanging out in the writer's room for Clone War Season 7, I'm guessing. I don't know. I wonder if there's, like, a threshold of, of, like, uh, lore implication.

Right. That if you meet, if you, like, hit the threshold, it has to be, like, sent to, sent to George. George has to see it. But if it's, like, under a certain threshold, it's like, eh, we can let that happen. It's fine. We don't need the oversight. I want to know what George thinks about Revenge of Scott.

We're not revenge. What is it? Rise of Skywalker. So bad. I would love to know. I would love to know. I mean, I saw, like, I don't know where I saw this, so I'm not going to, like, attribute it. But I saw, like, there are people who draw lines between some of the, like, ground rules laid out here in the Mortis Arc and what Ryan Johnson does in The Last Jedi.

Sure. with the whole notion of, like, the duality is part of a wholeness. And, like, it is the wholeness that is the key to resolving this conflict. And that is, like, the most interesting idea that, like, The Last Jedi plays with, that is then run straight through the fucking paper shredder in the last movie as Abrams sort of jams things back onto the rails as he understands them, which is extremely wrote formulaic retreading of prior work. Right.

I don't think Lucas rolls that way. I think one of the problems for me with this entire conceit of wholeness is that, and I think this comes up a lot in these, it came up a lot for me in these episodes, in which you know, the father is talking about, oh, we need this ballot. Like, we're always hearing about balance. We're always hearing about needing, like, both sides of the forest. And we know what it looks like when there's too much dark. Yeah.

It's fucked up and evil and bad. But the light, we never see, like, the tragedy of the light. Like, we never see what is bad about the light side. Like, presumably, is it just that? Like, I was thinking about the family dynamic on this island or whatever. And if the kids are just like, the daughter's fault is that she's too selfless. Like, that's her. Like, when they're just, when, when they're described.

Yeah, go ahead. Yes. Yes. I think it's in this one. It's in this one or the next one. It's selflessness and selfishness, which is as close as we've seen to. And again, some tertiary philoni thing I saw talked about him talking to George and then zeroing, you know, that is what the light side and the dark side are. It's selflessness and selfishness.

Yeah. And so that's like straight from the mouth, you know. Right. Right. Which just, it's like, it just doesn't make sense to me. Like there could be too much selflessness. Yeah. It makes.

Oh, I feel like, yeah, some of the mistakes that she makes in these episodes. are that where it's like, oh, I have to give the wrong person the divine sword and her jumping inside of the, in front of her father to be like, I would rather die in this moment and let balance go out of, uh, let balance not be balanced anymore. Yeah. Right. Instead of, you know, to save this person who's already dying is a version of selflessness that's like bad. But it's not the same as like being a horrible gargoyle. Sorry, except, like, it is exasperating.

Like, if the Jedi sometimes feel like, okay, the Sith have lightning, they like throw people around, like, space stations, they choke people with their minds. And the Jedi are like, we can

occasionally block blaster shots. And, like, in the most suggestible gullible goobers in the galaxy, we can, like, get them to, like, open a door but like here it's like to the extreme of like oh it's also enormous passivity where it's like learn to throw a fucking punch like evil is on the move and you can't like confront it right and her solution is i will just non-violently resist even as he is like tearing the planet apart right culminating in that sacrifice which is we just saw you yeah like neutralize his

strength and the best thing you can come up with here is like i just stepped in front of that blade and die. Also, we have a really good example, I think, of too much selflessness, which is, you're not allowed to love anybody, right? So selfless am I? No, no, no, none for me, please. None for me. No personal attachments.

I'm not going to actually be involved with another person's life, or I'm not going to believe in a political cause that isn't just this, like, blob of the republic, or I'm not going to believe in being in a place and helping that particular community. I belong to the galaxy. I don't belong to Rodea. I don't belong to Tatouine. I belong to the galaxy. You know, it would be, it would be, oh, it would be kind of dark-sided if Anakin went back

and freed all the slaves on Tatooine, wouldn't it? Because that'd be very selfish of him. He'd be putting his desires first. And he might have to beat up a slave trader. Right, exactly. So I think that's, it's not called attention to. And it's, and, you know, you could say, oh, that shit isn't light side. But I think that in the mythology of this stuff, that is what the lights being too light-sides

means is looking a lot like the Jedi Circa of the Fall of the Republic who are unwilling to who are even unwilling to really investigate the Sith stuff. I'm a little bit into I'm kind of far actually into that audio book that we're doing as a bonus which I don't know that we've said on a real episode yet

have we? Did we mention that we're doing No, that was just a Q&A. What is the name of that book? Let's see. Duky Jedi Lost by Kevin Scott sometime in the near future. and like there's lots of the Jedi keep all of their Sith stuff locked away and no one even knows that they have it that they could like no one is like studying it like three people are studying that shit

and it's like oh but we couldn't it's too risky to go like no fucking roll up your fucking sleeves put yourself out there put yourself in harm's way there's a lot of that and so and so I think that there's that might be our illustration but it's so much less attention grabby then the whole planet explodes because of dark side energies, you know? Right, right. That makes a lot of sense.

I mean, it's funny that as Anakin moves through these three episodes, he can't help but to call what he sees as darkness the Sith. Like, he's constantly interrogating them about being Sith or, like, you're Sith, you're evil, you're a Sith. And it's like the fact that this binary exists in his head that if you are to be a dark force wielder, you are to be attached to this very specific dark cult, I think showcases the limitations of his understanding of the force in general. Like, you're either Jedi or you're Sith, when there's a whole universe, like, a whole universe of different types of force wielders out there. It is, it killed, the thing that kills me, I think you're dead on about this, Anakin's limited view. The idea, of course, there could be other light side force users in the Jedi and other dark side force users in the Sith.

He's super limited. Because, again, they're not out here learning about the witches, right? There's no seminar you can take at the Jedi Temple to learn about Talzin. there should be. You should get to learn about the Knight Sisters as like inside of a set of other force users. But the thing that there's a bit in this episode, Overlords,

where they talk about how Anakin has a limited view because he's using Sith and Jedi instead of light and dark. But then like this is a planet that has like the volcano of the dark side, the well of the dark side. That is a more binary and limited view

of the force than the Sith. Because the Sith are a particular like faction that have a history and have their own weird variations on dark side magic than other dark side things their vision of the dark side is not is is particular in a way that the well of the dark side and the super good sword of killing the force is so it's so in the realm of purity and allegory that like you don't get to talk about having a simplistic that somebody else has a simplistic view your view is that the dark side is where all the lava is like that's that's on you that's in the shit you are already you know yeah it drove me crazy

like truly like ah these are not the characters who are allowed to say this yeah anyway yes we should probably move into the next episode um he who surrenders hope yeah surrenders life my next line on my notes after i wrote that down was i warned you about stairs father My first note for this arc is The Sith and the Jedi Do be needing to be destroyed, though. You should hear him out. True.

Hear him out. My friends, Anakin Lovs to be like, fuck the Sith. And this guy is like, I'm not the Sith. Yeah. So the thing that happens here is they're like, we're leaving the planet. And the brother is like, not so fast.

I've got to talk to Anakin first. And does he visit him in a dream? Is that what he does? Yeah, it's like a forced dream where he talks to him as Anakin, but like for not long enough for it to be effective. Yeah. Yeah. He like immediately changes like, yeah, we're going to take down the Jedi.

And Anakin's like, I'm not doing that. But then he's like, but I, he has like anger flames. And he's like, I'm going to destroy the Sith and the Jedi. I'm not a sis. Stop saying that. I, for some reason, was compelled to say, yeah, he was more like Ba'u'a with Tabah, and that's kind of the vibe that I was getting from him, so. So, also, like, Asoka's just plucked from the spaceship before they can escape.

They have a crash landing, and now it's like, we got to get Asoka back. And so once again, we're going to have to get. go talk to fucking Mortis. I think he's just father, right? Except I think, I was looking up. Wikipedia was like, Mortis is the dude. That's Mortis. I thought Mortis was the place.

I thought we were on Mortis. Me too. Yeah. Because this really annoyed me that they like didn't name them at all. It's just father, son and daughter. It is the ethereal realm. Where did I see also that a... The ethereal realm.

Tim, I'm trying to go there. Father, Mortis. Oh, I think that means father, like the one on Mortis. Oh, resident of Mortis. Versus father, the title of a leader of a Mustafarian clan, or father, a Rodian, or father, a male parents. I misread the, I misread the Wikipedia. But also, the Wikipedia says, as Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Asoka are about to leave Mortis' world. Yeah, who the fuck knows?

Yep, see, yeah, true. Who knows? We'll just call them the father Because nobody ever calls a mortis Yeah I'm fine with that Also be careful on Wikipedia Because I don't know this shit

But my understanding is this may not be the last we see of these characters Okay I'm closing it Yeah So they're like we're gonna talk to We're gonna talk to the father To get to the bottom of this And rescue Asoka But Anakin

Decides he's gonna solo it Obi-Wan kind of wants to go looking for him. Meanwhile, Asoka... Goes Harley Quinn mode. Yeah. It meets like a little Pixar creature. Oh my God, I love him. Okay.

I, when I saw him, I loved him. I was like, I love this little freak. I love it when Star Wars gives us a little freak. And then I was sad. He crawls up. He crawls all the way up. he's like whispering. It was great.

But then it turned out to be the brother and I got sad. Yeah. I thought the brother had a little... Just let him be his own little freak.

Yeah, the brother should have had a little freak. He's a freak. He's a freak. He's the freak. The bar talk to his resputeon.

Right, that's what I'm saying. That's the, like, these, George Lucas refers to these characters as gods. They are more powerful and have more control

over the force than anyone we've ever seen. And he needs to turn to do a little guy and bite Asoka to make her become dark side? Like, what is going on? He does bite her. He bites her with the dark side bite, huh? He didn't have to do it like that. Like, he could have done anything else.

But he's a freak. My favorite bit of that is as she's collapsing, the little freak goes, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Oh, my God, I literally wrote that down. What a little weirdie. He is a little weirdy, but I stand him as his own entity, not as the brother. Yeah. Yeah. Also, like, it's like rabies rolls where, like, his little bite turns her, right?

And she turns all like, um, you guess like the black blood vein thing going on, right? Yeah. It's a little bit, um, I am legend, I guess is the first place I saw that effect. But yeah, it's, or maybe like, um, 28 days later, where it's, or maybe like, um, 28 days later, where it's just like, oh, shit, like, she's turned, but not voluntarily. It's more like she got the dark side. She got a little dark side in her. Yeah.

Just injected. Yeah. Which is like, oh, so you could just, like, inject someone with some dark side? Like, could we make a dark side, like, zombie army? Like, our. Dark side vampires army. Like, think of twilight eclipse. Or, sorry, New Moon.

And just think of all of those vampires. Like, they're just dark side. The dark side bit, yeah. They just got dark side bit. That's it. That's what being a vampire is. You get dark side bit. It's not your fault.

Sorry. Yeah, it's weird. It's just like, I don't know. If you can just turn people dark side by biting them, like, why is Palpatine wasting his damn time. Well, because he's not the brother. He can't do this. He doesn't know how to be.

He needs to meet the brother. They would be unstoppable together. Well, they would be. They would be. They would be. Like, it is trying to get out. Also, this sets up the whole, like,

what, what turns someone toward, like, just dark side unleashed powers? It's daddy issues. Like, it turned, like, it is the most classic, like,

the lizard cutscene-ass sequence. where like the son confronts his father and his father is like you know you've been feeling a little more dark-sighted than usual

and it culminates in the kid throwing a tantrum with like forced lightning and then yeah all the like the two children end up like fighting but again

like the daughter's whole thing is just to like keep the sun from killing anyone but like doesn't really like she's not in it to win it yeah right and instead her solution is uh i can't believe it's come to i cannot believe this inevitable like tension has come to an irreconcilable conflict uh nevertheless the only thing i can do now is take obiwan to the special uh lightsaber yeah uh that's hidden in the cavern the the sun specifically says to the father, you never believed in me. And I just think that maybe if the father had done a little validating and positive

reinforcement, we wouldn't be here. But like, what's the son even doing that needs to be validated? Like, no one's doing anything on this fucking planet. I don't know. Maybe he has some, like, maybe he was showing off a cool dark side power that he learned. Look at my little guy. Maybe, yeah, maybe he did the little guy. trick and maybe his dad really didn't like it and then he felt bad that he didn't like his

little freak self right but the sister does a sister's like oh your little freak an incredible little freak this time brother yeah which is why he ends up feeling sad when he does a bat when he kills her later yeah yeah because you're the only one who like my tricks you're the only one who like my vape tricks is really the truth this is like really there's like a shift in the way that they talk about these characters in this episode specifically that's really annoying because like even the narrator is like the daughter who's very light and the son who's drifting closer to the dark like I thought he was the personification of the dark side like how is he drifting what's going on there and like if if if this is like also a family tension between the three of these

people and like the father's goals were to like have a balance between his two children like why wasn't he like you know what daughter for this week you should go to the dark side lava And just kind of, you know, just see what's going on over there. That's what gets me, actually. Now that I think about it, like, if, is it just that the further they go down, as long as they're in the same, like, how does balance work? Because if she's in an extreme and he's in an extreme, shouldn't that cancel out? Like, shouldn't there be some parallelism that, like, okay, she's all the way. over here and he's all the way over here okay that's fine but what i feel like this episode is saying

is like oh they both need to be like closer to center like but if they're just if they are what they are how can they even i mean this is the limit of this is the thing we're running into where it's like you're working in the realm of pure allegory but also you want to do a family drama because then you start asking questions about like well what were they doing before we got here and you know why is it that they don't just like talk out their issues and the answer is because like she's a big glowing orb and like that's who she is she's just a big glow also not selfless you bright as fuck ma'am

could you turn it down on trying to sleep the little tapered dress she wears that like you're on to play it with your father and your brother what's going on here what's going and where is she getting the false eyelashes and the lipstick like what is Amazon delivery guy is going to Mortis for her.

What is happening? Do you think they have a connect that's like one dude, one regular ass dude? There's one Shian messenger that, like, goes between. Yeah. It's like the Han Solo type. You know what I mean? It's Honda. It's Honda.

It's absolutely comes through. He's always known about this. He has. The next time he sees it, like, oh, I heard you met the father or whatever. And it's like, how the fuck do you know about this, Honda? The daughter and the son both, like, disappear when Honda shows up. You can't start talking about his ex again. I can't.

I can't. I hate it. Where he's like, look, she's evil. A little bit dangerous. But my God, I just love her so much.

I just want her back. So then the daughter takes Obi-Wan to the light side cave of green fire. It's not a light-sage cave. It's like, by the way, Obi-Wan, I can't do shit. Yeah.

Go do this jumping puzzle, please. Yes. Apparently, this whole little zone, this cave is based on the cave in Wagner's ring cycle, in Siegfried. Oh, yeah, okay. Now I see where she's coming from. Yeah, she's a Valkyrie, you know, it's that whole vibe, you know? Sure. Why can't she just do some cool, powerful shit? Like, you are the embodiment of light. Yeah. And it's like, it's, shit's looking weak. This is a series where the hardest thing Obi-Wan could think to do

was eat shit in the very first movie they made Like literally he's like Hey, Darth, you know what's gonna really fuck you up You just kicked my ass Get over here, kick my ass I think it would be super selfless of her To just float that dagger up to him instead of So selfless.

Yeah Or selfless to do it herself, right? That's what I'm saying. She could just do it, yeah. The way she foolishly hands it over later. I guess he didn't, I don't quite remember how. Obi-1, Assook, like, intercepts a pass. That's one of them is, yes.

She just, she read his eyes. He just stared down his man and was just like, because Anikins is his only receiver, and she was just like she jumped the route. Just like what's happened to the Eagles right now. Oh, no. It's going bad, Rob. It's fine. A god versus an angsty teen is surely an equal fight.

Well, we get practically an angsty teen fight as, you know, Anakin, who's still fairly young, battles Asoka, who's turned. And she's kicking all their asses, basically. As we learn from the Waypoint 8-hour stream and the lightsaber fights, two lightsabers, you know you think surely that has some sort of disadvantage. No. No. You just probably want the two lightsabers. Always pick the two lightsabers. She lays out.

Go ahead. You talk, yeah. Well, she says something to Anakin during this fight, or it might be right before it starts, where he calls her Snips. And she's like, I hate it when you call me that. And I wanted to pull that out because I'm like, is this Asoka's truth? Does she hate it when he calls her that? Because that's great. Like, get him to stop calling you that because I hate hearing it.

He uses it again in this arc. Literally, the moment she'd like come back to life. Well, because he's like she didn't really mean that. That was just the dark side. She loves my teases. And also that means that it must not have been true That she actually would love to get a little bit more positive reinforcement And a little less fucking boring-ass criticism from me

I do really like the effect that they used in the scene Where it's Assoca's voice, but it's sort of echoed by the son's voice When it gets kind of confused whether this is Him talking through her, him manipulating her Or like her true emotion coming out because of Dark Side Poison right I wish her face

wasn't so clownish yeah she does the biggest like emotive you know expressions it's super jokerified it really is you hate to see it

but she does kick ass with two lightsabors and like what can you do yeah and then she intercepts the they're going to do a sort of alley pass of the like sacred for a stagger thing and she intercepts it

gives it to the son who in just an unforced error is like well I don't need this incredibly valuable henchman anymore kills her and then is like winding up to like he's winding up to kill his dad

daughter just steps in just just takes the shot she's mortally wounded and the son's like no I didn't mean to do that. This raises some questions about what happens next time also.

But I guess we'll wait. Yeah, I have so many questions. What was his goal? I guess that's what I want to ask. What was the son's goal with the dagger? What did he think was going to happen when he stabbed dad? Kill him. He says you will die.

So he does want to kill the dad. But then he sat later when in the next episode, Poppy dies. I mean, isn't the whole thing in the next episode that if the father dies, they both die? I, in an attempt to make this make sense, I guess I created a head cannon. Or like, I feel like there's maybe,

there's something about the father being there and weakening that like maybe the children and the son specifically is like, oh, the potential that I have is so much more than what it's been in this place. And now I can leave and go be a dark side weirdo out in the galaxy and like I think maybe he needed

a situation where it was him and his sister alive because if his power goes through the father then him and the sister can just kind of balance off each other separately without the father being there to like tame them quote unquote

quote unquote but even after he kills the sister he's still like all right I got to get off this planet time to and the father's like don't let him get to the shit And I'm like Just put a lock on the ship or something Like don't give him the key

Yeah Which is what Asoka does when she After this episode just becomes a goggles girl She dies one day And then it's like I'm going to take the day off I guess Do you know whose goggles those are? Are they? What's her names?

Uh, okay Anacan The little girl No No Rob Not J-bo No, they're not J-Bos' goggles

They're Hondo's goggles Are they Hondo's goggles? That's the Hondo Goggles. That's the Hondo Goggles they had In their library Oh But they're not canonically Those are Hondo have

J-Bo had gags J-bo-Hood. J-Bo-Hood Maybe Hondo has like a line of gags That I could see it slinging. Hey, does Jabo look a little bit like George Harrison in a hard day's night?

A little bit, yes. Why is there an aged-up J-O-Hood fan art? Stop it. Does he grow up to be a batty? What's going on here? J-bo. Who is his other J-bo? Wait, does he

for real? Is he... Here, I'm going to send you the picture. You're right. You're right. I'm going to close this. You're right. Let me close it. I just wanted to know if it was a fan wiki or a real wiki that I was looking at. We have a friend who, you know what? It's fine. Don't worry about it.

If you know, you know. Yeah. Sorry. What, notebook page after notebook page? No, no, no. No, there's just a friend who thought they were on the official Game of Thrones wiki or, in fact, on the fan wiki. Not like the fan in wiki. and perhaps thought that

a major actor was Henry Cavill had been on the show Game with Thrones for eight seasons or whatever and he hadn't noticed we love you we're sorry it's a good story

anyway Jabo Hood was there I'm sorry because I am scrolling through at Jabo Hood Amino Post that's the post alley and I can't tell if there like real or if they're pulling art from other Star Wars things

and being like, this guy's Jabo. I think they're pulling art. Okay, because it's multiple different artists, but it all looks like official art. It does. I think this is a fandom style post. Anyway.

I've only seen Amino using K-pop. Sure. The Enchanted Blade has not killed the daughter very quickly. Asoka's dead as a doorknail, but the daughter is like, I can fix this. With my waning life force, I can imbue Asoka with life, and she will be resurrected. And yeah, I think the whole, like, what was the son's play here? I'm with Allie, like, it is, once he is alone now, all the balance is destroyed,

but you could sort of, you sort of dreamed of like our captor slash balance sir, him being out of the picture, would let us both be our best selves. But, yeah, so Asoka is back. And, yeah, it's like, is he literally calling her Snips, like, by the end of the scene where he's like, it's all right, Snips. Let's get out of here. Like, bro, you really learn nothing from Asoka showing her, her truth to you, like, giving you truth. He was like, I like calling you this stupid fucking nickname. I'm going to keep calling you that.

Based on the fact that she was snippy. Yeah. Once. Yeah, it's like not a good, it's not like, uh, like jumpy. Like, you're really good at jumping. Oh, sure. That's the one you wanted to use for like a good one. Doesn't she have a nickname for him though?

That's also a little. Sky guy. Sky guy. But she's like never used a sky guy. A sky guy is so complimentary. She uses a sky guy a fair bit. That's so mean. It's not great.

It's so mean. But yeah, it's, but it is a very like, a harmless big brother taunt that you do not realize is getting under the skin of a sibling, like so profoundly they'll hate you forever because of this. Why circles? Because she can draw circles with her lightsaber. Oh, circles. I'm sorry.

Okay, well, we'll keep workshopping good nicknames for, uh, so. I don't even gotten there yet. I mean, I need to convene the writer's room. They should ask the clones. Oh, the clones are so good at it, except sometimes they make bad ones, but. I would hate to be a clone and every day have people be like, can you give me a nickname? Yeah, like, you guys are really good at that. Especially when you just have a feeling like, this guy's not going to be a very successful clone.

It's like, hey guys, what do you think my nickname should be? And it's like, there's always a person. It's like the kid in middle school who, like, gives themselves a nickname. And it's like, okay, everyone, I'm, I'm, like, I'm Pikachu now. Like, everyone call me Pikachu, I'm Pikachu. I just looked over and I have a Pikachu plush, so that's why I said that. But, like, no one wants to, I don't know, just, no, nicknames have to come from somewhere. But they can't come from somewhere negative.

It has to come from somewhere positive. So Snips has been restored to her snippy ways. We don't need to examine anything she said while under the influence. And so once again, the father's like, okay, well, now you all should leave because the balance can't be maintained. Obviously, you know, the light is dead on the floor over there. the darkness completely off the chain. You guys need to get out of here because this powerful being that we've unleashed doesn't have a shuttle.

He doesn't have a spaceship. So he's kind of trapped. So you guys need to get out of here because like if he gets hold to your car, he can go anywhere. And so they're like, absolutely, we should leave. And then the next episode is, should we leave? It's, is Annie. Okay.

Anakin says If I don't get the father's blessing To leave it'll haunt me forever 20 minutes to go He said y'all got to go There's not more of a clear blessing than that And like three hours before that He was like if you leave

You will unleash imbalance and destruction In the Force and Anakin was like I don't care about all that Yeah It's super weird And I will say the, my only, the only part of it that I like a lot is that little speeder bike that unfolds. That's really, for you.

It's like a little floaty container. I'm like, what is this thing? And then he unfolds, like, kicks up the front half of it. And it's great. It's a little speeder Vespa. I love it. There's a little footrest and everything. It's perfect.

This is that good Star Wars Vespa we're looking for. Oh, is that where you fall on the Vespa? What's your Vespa take? My honest take is, like, I don't think the Vespas are the problem. That's, that's my take. Like, I think people are latching on the Vespa because it's like there's something else that might be deeper about the show that's bugging you,

and the Vespas are just kind of like a symbol of it. Well, on a future episode of a more civilized stage, we will. Yeah. So, yeah, so Aniken goes off to go, ask the father's blessing for all this stuff. Meanwhile, they've got a crypt, by the way. This place has a big, like, tombland, which, like, there's three of them.

So why is there all these, like, fucked-up mausoleums around? Raises some questions about, like, what the father's been up to for, like, millennia. Like, oh, man, there's just failed children all over this place. It's just a little, like, a patch of dandelions. Also, is there another parent in this? the picture at some point was there who could say i i i keep getting so annoyed at their only father daughter and son because it has to be this family relationship and star wars cares about family relationship but like can't star wars care about mothers like just a little bit like

never once you know god please star wars said moms are not strong actually moms are not tough moms don't be me yeah yeah It charts. It charts your course from there. Yeah. So this time, the father basically is like, well, we're off book. Like, we are completely beyond, like, I had a plan. It's all fucked up now.

So, I don't know, kid, whatever happens is like up to the force, I guess. Go be careful. So Anakin is not careful. He goes to confront the son. Along the way, though, he runs into Quigon. Like Mufasa in the clouds And Quigon Is like

Look inside yourself Go to go confront the sun At the well of the dark side But like Quigon is mostly like Reassuring I would say during this Like whatever you do son Like it's the right move I'll be proud of you just like follow your heart

And I'm like I'm like I think Quigon wants bad things to happen. I think post-mortem Quigon has figured out that the balance and the force is not what everyone was kind of hoping it would be. And he's still there being like, but I do want to see these equations balance out by any means necessary. Go on, Anakin. Get in there, slugger. go to the fucking dark side volcano

you know it to be true it's the father who's initially like my son's at the volcano you gotta find him and then quigon shows up and is like well do you want to talk through this chosen one thing because I can sense that you're feeling a little you've been having a weird time which I appreciate

but yeah I he says like I think you're going to believe it bring balance to the force and that you're going to save the universe and you know you don't leave he's specifically Anakin is like

do I go fight this guy or do I just bounce and that's what Quaghan is like you're going to find some other answer don't worry about it Oh sure Think deeper You know

Quirion's like Kid The only shit that's going to matter Is going to happen in like 30 years So Play it by year till then Yeah

Just make those kids Just don't worry about it Yeah So you and Padme thought about starting a family, no? Yeah, you don't want to wait too long. Anything can happen in this crazy universe. And then I love the father coming to their ship and just being outside when Obi-Wan goes outside briefly.

Like, hey, guys, you're still here. You're still here, huh? so yeah and then we get the well of the dark side which basically just mustafar right it's like at this point this all of this is going to be we're just going to directly foreshadow Anakin's ultimate fate he's gonna be confronted uh in like a volcano layer except the twist here is uh if you've ever wondered like well if only anakin like knew where these decisions would lead, he could change them. And the answer is he thinks he can, but that will still lead him to the same decisions. Like, like, the argument here is

Anakin is going to do the Anakin thing regardless of like what he knows or like what happens. That's, there's such a, there's a weird thing about the scene where he, so he sees the future and he sees very specific points of his future. We see like, like Padma getting choked. We see the fight with Obi-Wan. We see a youngling being like, don't get me. So like, and the Darth Vader thing. So he had, and the, um, destruction of, uh, Alderon.

Alderan. Probably, right. Um, so, like, he has a very big context of what's going on here. But then when he turns away from that, the outcome he still has is, you don't understand the things that I'm going to have to do to end the Clone Wars. And then the other thing that he says is, I have seen the future and it is the Jedi that still stand in the way of peace. And it's like, you still think that? Did the basement do you fuck you up that bad?

Like, what is I, is he just, is there a refusal to like even seeing the situation with him and Sidious and the way that he's turned to the dark side to be like, oh, but Sidious did that to me. And I made those choices for a reason. And it was because of all of these other people of my life who, yada, yada, yada. Well, like, maybe he only sees his perspective on those events. He doesn't see the future. He sees his own perspective on all those events. And he's like, well, yeah, that's the choice I would make. Wow, Obi-Wan betrays me.

But he doesn't say Obi-Wan betrays it. Like, that's not so weird, right? He goes back to, when he talks to Obi-Wan later, he's not like, you're going to betray me and kill Padme. And, you know what I mean? He doesn't say that shit. He talks about the Jedi being. being bad, which, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know how he still gets there from, presumably. Well, can I provide a little extra context? Because maybe there is a world in which this is, again, seen as a manipulation. And maybe it's more that if you knew the scene that was written and went through animatics, but got cut from this episode. That involves the son's real motivations or influences. quote one of the very interesting things in the final episode of mortis that i know fans would have found very interesting was that george was looking for two ancient scyth lords that could bring some meaning that would be some sort of uber evil influence guiding the sun and that was doth bain who invented the rule of two i believe and doth raven from knights of the old republic both of who existed in the eu so it was going to be a big deal to bring these legendary scyth lords into the clon wars and thus the world

of the George Lucas Star Wars story. We designed them. They're in the Clone War style. We modeled them in the Clone War style. And we shot the scene in the episode. The scene exists, but it never made it into final animation. It only existed in layout. It was very apprehensive of this scene, as cool as it was, because of the implication of it.

Which is that these Sith lords could separate themselves from the force and somehow talk to the sun. That seemed like a big deal. You know about the time after we'd shot it, you know, we sent the reel to George. he watches it, he loves it, but eventually I'd get a call from George and he said, you know, I've been really thinking about this and we should take the scene out with the Sith Lords. And you know, as disappointing as it was, because, you know, it would have been cool to have these characters appear in Clone Wars. It was absolutely the right thing to do because they

just can't exist in that form. They can't exist in that way. But I think for the fans, it would be at least neat to know that the idea was considered that we went very far with it. In the end, after discussions, it was really George who said, no, I thought this would be good. I wanted to do this, but it doesn't really jive with my bigger explanation of the force. And it gives you an insight into the detail that he gets into these issues with the force. And the concepts of the bigger spiritual aspects for Star Wars, he's

very involved in them. And to be honest, the writers and I feel very strong that when we bring these sorts of episodes on the screen, George has to be more involved than normal, because we have to get this stuff right. Of everything we do, we have to get this stuff right, because it's the force, it's the whole ball game. I feel

like this is actually an example of George like tempering himself in a way that is that benefits the story because I think there's like this

instinct to make it all connect and to make it all like come back to the Jedi versus the Sith etc and the and to leave out

I mean if if that had been in I think this I wouldn't say that this arc is particularly good. I don't know if it's like a particularly good arc, but I think it's a fascinating arc. Yes. Yeah. But I do think that if at the very end of this,

after like on episode three, if they were like, and these two Sith lords are the ones that got the sun to do this, it would have been like, okay, so it's just like another game. Another, yeah. It's like the end of a Twilight Zone episode, right? Well, it's like, it would have been like rise of skywalkering. Yeah. Yeah.

Here we go again. It's another Sith plot. Like, that was all boiled down to. And then, like, what's the point of us being here and you talking about, like, we're not Sith if, like, the whole thing is like, oh, the Sith came through? Like, it's supposed to be a bottle episode. Like, what do you? Yeah. So I just, I just looked back at that scene again.

And I guess here's the connection I can draw, though, is that what Anakin sees and sort of the argument that the sun makes is that hey man you just got caught up like all of this got out of hand and it leads you down this terrible path but you can change things by seizing agency now with me

and we get ahead of all of this and we bring peace throughout the galaxy and the war and we will have you know we will bring we will bring sort of a universal piece and we will we will end this path that you're that you're on and anica is desperate enough to see that as a reasonable off ramp that like okay well

the path I'm on leads me to turning evil but also it leads me to be this like agent of destruction but if we simply seize power now for the right reasons yeah we can prevent all of this Yeah, I get the motivation. Yeah, but yeah. I do, yeah. No, I mean, I do like it from that perspective. I think it makes sense, but it's just the way that he speaks about it that isn't that, that just feels like this huge disconnect. Right.

He could have said, he could have been the one who said something like that, Rob, right? He could have said, we can't let things get there. We have to act quickly. We have to make, you know, a decision now to, to uniform. the galaxy to end the clone wars together we can do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And instead, he just says there's been a change of plans.

Is there, man, is Anakin just always, like, looking to be someone's follower? Yeah. Like, I mean, just, like, at every turn, the thing that sways him most is, like, it's, first it's the,

whoever he took the last, meeting with the method of decision making. But two, it's this like desperate desire to, and maybe this is where things like the arc does get a little more interesting from the Anakin side, he doesn't want to be the chosen one because he might then have to do something with that. What he wants is somebody, yeah, he wants somebody to just tell him what does that mean and what will be asked of me. Tell me and I will do it.

And ultimately, like, that is his arc, is him just like following, under the sway of like one strong influence after another until kind of he makes the first and only choice of his life as a Jedi in return of the Jedi right like I mean like ultimately that is where he makes a positive choice but here we sort of see faced with this like horrible premonition even here where it's like you're going to fall to the dark side and become this ancient of evil. He's like, cool, dark Jedi who just shared with me that vision. How do I get me out of this? Yeah. The question of Is Anakin a follower is really interesting because he is when he has the opportunity, except when it's following the Jedi. And it's either, it's either he feels like he's,

he's already feels like he's failed as a Jedi. He says so as such in this arc that like, you know, I'm something else than what all of these other people are, so I want to find something else to follow. So then what he's really looking for in some instances, permission or it's a validation that the feelings he has about the world are actually right, right? He can't find that validation internally. He can't do what Duku did, which is be like, you know, my vision of the world is such that these people aren't it for me.

I'm going to strike off on my own and go do my own shit. He has to have that second. He has just pivot away from being under them and to somebody else who is like, yes, the way that you see the world. Now, that's the way to see it. So it isn't just being a follower. It's being a follower of someone who is going to tell you that you're fundamentally right, even if you still need some guidance, right?

I guess it just frustrates me that I feel like whenever Anakin is presented with like the opportunity to like try out a little dark side he almost every single time takes it like yeah it's so rare that we actually see um true struggle right of like he's so easily persuaded and so easily manipulated by his guilt and by like any sort of mentor or leader type figure that it just kind of

I just it feels it ends up feeling a little one note like there's not really there's not enough of Anakin can really trying to take this third way that I think is more, would be more satisfying to the character himself of like looking for this, like trying to thread the needle between

rather than being so absolutist in, okay, fine, I'll do the dark side thing because it seems like it's gonna work out. I like there's a little bit of that struggle or a little bit at least of the voicing of his difficulty when he does talk to the father here before the father mind wipes him is where he says like but wait but i'm going to do bad stuff i can't let that happen like i don't want that and like that's at least a little bit of of what is going on and why he made that choice so quick um but but yeah i don't know he's a he's a passionate boy he's making big swings he's a that's who he is he is not a deliberator an i can Skywalker has never been someone who sits and works through what his options are. No. He's going to jump, you know, every time.

Yeah, that is true. He does not reflect. No. He is bad. You know what? Terrible grades in meditation class. Terrible. Terrible.

Before we, I just ordered one more complaint about that scene that got cut. I didn't want to jump back to it right away because of having better, more important. discussion about characters and growth and things, but it fucking bugs me out that the reason that that scene with Revin and Bain get cut, it gets cut is because they're not allowed to appear as force ghosts, right? They keep talking about like, oh, they're not allowed to appear in that form because they can't reach back out from the, from the force in that way. They can't separate themselves from the force. And then, you know, you have to imagine what they mean is the way Quigon does. Quigon has developed this technique to separate.

operate himself from the force to go talk to people, which he's going to then teach to Yoda and to Obi-Wan, which is how they can do it in the original trilogy. And Darth Bain and Revin can't do that because they don't know that technique. And not all of the reasons we said immediately, which is like it makes the episode worse if it's just a fucking Sith plot. And also, what the fuck is Revin doing here doing this? I know. I want to pour one out for the Lost Revin, uh, Clone Wars model that I'll never see. You can see the model. It's out there. It's out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can look up this whole scene. It's bad.

This whole scene exists. There's voice acting. It's very funny to look at because it's like it is. I'm just going to post it here. We don't have to watch it. It's long. But you can button through it real quick. You can see their designs.

You can see the actual animatic of like being down in the lava planet and the sun being like, but I'm so confused. What do I do? Why am I doing this? And then giant Bain and Revin appear in front of him. It's bad. It's a bad scene. It's good it got cut.

It's good that it got cut. But also, I feel like that's, I agree with you that that's a bad reason for cutting it. Because, like, the Sith are able to transfigure themselves. They are able to create visions of themselves. Like, why can't come back? For being dead yet. These ones don't know how to do it. It's silly, I know.

Not anybody can do it. Maybe it's. But I guess I was more thinking of it as like there's, there could be two, two, what two means to the same end. Like there could be two different ways of achieving. Sith do do this shit. They tend to do it as ghosts at their tombs or like they've in, they have haunted a holocron. A holocron.

Yeah. Oh, sure, sure. Yes. Frieden Nad is in a fucking holocron or whatever, waiting to be perused. And once you peruse that motherfucker, he's going to come out and do some dark shit. So. Wait, but so the only, I guess, like, Canon Force Ghosts are Quigon. It's Obi-Wan because Quigon teaches him. And then Anakin, because he presumably gets taught by Obi-Wan? I guess Anakin, Yeah, good fucking question. Why does Anakin get to do it at the end?

Good question. Maybe he discovers it while he's Darth Vader. I don't know. I don't know. But also, they used to know how to do it. It used to be a thing. And Quigon is the one who like finds it again, basically. Okay, yeah.

Okay, sure. There's like a big list. There is a big list of people who do this shit. Revin does know how to do this eventually in the thing. Darth Bain does know how to do this according to the, according to Legends Wikipedia. So I don't fucking know. I don't know. But George doesn't give a fuck about that stuff, right?

In George's Star Wars, Quigon is the one who comes back with this knowledge. And it's a big deal. He shows his voice, you know, Yoda hears his voice in the next, in Revenge of the Sith. And so it has to be Quygon, right? So, anyway, d'H. The rest of this episode. Yeah. So, yeah, I think the crucial thing there, though, is that, like, the mission of this trio of episodes has been

what if Anakin got a chance to know what would become of him? And the answer is he still wouldn't make the right decision, but then we have to take that knowledge away. So now he's even more tragically faded because the father who's been wrong about literally everything so far is like, I can fix this by removing this memory. And remember, in the future, it's your choice. You still have free will, even though we know how this decision is going to play out.

don't worry about it's a whole thing in philosophy uh but i have but i have come down on the side of you do have free will to suck uh and so that's kind of where the the father the father leaves uh aniken and then showing that same like sense of mentorship and parental understanding he has his final confrontation with his son uh there is a there is a battle but the thing that i think we're really getting to is the father takes his own life as

he and the son find their way toward like a last minute deathbed almost reconciliation where like the son has very much the character of a child who has thrown an unforgivable tantrum and done and said unspeakable

things and done horrible things and now wishes once again to restored to the embrace of family but it's too late and Anakin stabs him through the heart I think he stabs both of them which is oh does he shift you know I think so I remember seeing a burnhole in the back of the father's robe and I was like damn Anakin beautiful I going back a tiny bit the father says something hilarious to Anakin when he's taking his memories away or when they're like when Anakin's like but I'm doing bad things don't do that to me.

He says, your destiny can change as quickly as the love and someone's heart can change. Don't say that to Antiquette. He doesn't want to hear that. He doesn't believe that. Don't say that to Mr. Teen Mom.

No. Yeah. He believes that love is immortal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Despite it being terrifying. Yes. Yes.

It's eternal. You make one choice to love someone and that's it forever. I also, there's a note here that I don't remember when this scene. was. I thought it was here, but now I'm not so sure. It must have been when the son was

visiting the daughter in the tomb. Did that even happen? Yeah. She gets buried with the force dagger. Right. Why did he put that there? Why? Why did he put it there under no lock and key? Like literally, no. Why did he do that? Why? Because nobody would desecrate that tomb unless they were truly depraved and lost to the dark side of which... How did he have a hold on these two kids for that long? Man, through this three arc episode, he has taken so many fucking L's. It's unbelievable to me that he was holding down the universe for as long as he was. Because you put...

Yeah. Right where it would be. Why did you put it back in the well? In the fucked up well that he can't go to? bury it somewhere it's a whole big island or a planet or something just find a little just yeat it into space eat it in the space destroy it so deeply hate that scene because it's him putting the like dagger on her chest and you just see the like boob window in her dress as he's doing it i was like i fucking hate the show it's bad well then this is the scene in which the they're too

horny for each other i mean he's way too horny for her like i'll say it this is where he says where when the son says it's ironic my sister you were the only one i truly loved i was like did you when did you love her was the part of her you loved was when you were trying to like throw her around and fight her as a big bat is that the bit when you were loving her like because i didn't see any we don't we have no picture of like again if she was on who was like oh do some cool force lightning tricks you oh that's sick like i didn't we didn't see that we i don't know what the relationship there is other than that time you tried to kill her three times Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like it doesn't feel, it doesn't ring true for me. It feels bad, in fact. Yeah. For many reasons. So many different reasons. Like, you're in your sister's grave, bro.

Like, let her sleep. Let her rest. You already killed her. Now you're coming to her grave, looking at her in her sexy dress. Also, wait. they not know what Darth Plagius knows they can't bring people back to life I thought you're forced gods

Oh yeah Maybe she was the only one who could He denigrates Sith knowledge so much He doesn't know how to make that He doesn't know how to work that Although the sister did The sister is like The sister does do it

The sister but she's light side So she can do it But then how did Darts Plagias Be able to do it he's dark side So what the fuck Maybe But I feel like they can't do it Because her essence is in Asokadown

Yeah you're right Yes She saw the tears of time she disappeared into the fucking psychic. That's also the weird thing of that scene, because it's not only Asoka coming life, but like the dark side juice inside of her, like being purified.

And I wonder if that's like part of why the daughter was there to be able to do that. Yeah, sure. Who could say it? Anyway, my real takeaway from this, I mean, the end of this episode is what, Rob? What, you know, they die, they get off the planet, boom. Uh-huh.

And then no time is fast. Killing everyone. Yes. Like, the only, they brought balance. Well, ain't that the way that's going to happen. That's how he brings balance. No, it is the microcosm of like, if the equation goes to zero, it is balanced.

No more Jedi, no more Sith. He brings balance. He did it. And this is like, this is sort of the nihilism that Luke is toying around with in The Last Jedi. He's like, I have thought long and hard about our doctrine, and I think it's wrong on the fundamental premises, and we're going to have to turn this entire thing upside down. And that would have been cool. I wish he would. Yeah, my real takeaway from this is, like, I think the force is the coolest when it's the ocean and the worst when it's like Jesus and Satan.

And it's like, and that's just like how my, that's just how I vibe. I get that other people really like the mythological version of this. But, you know, also, I like Jesus and Satan the best when they're like an ocean, too. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so. Yeah. Like, when you think of it, like, when you're in fallen angel territory, when you think of Satan as Lucifer, the fallen, you know, prized son, that was, like, once the most exalted angel.

Right. And, like, when we're in, like... Versus the Sun. Paradise Lost Zone. Right, right. Versus... It's lit. The Sun who hangs out in the well of evil and cackles to himself.

Yeah. And it turns to do a big black bat. Yeah, exactly. It's not... There's a cool power. Well, this is part of why it's best when he's a little freak. Because that's, like, a fun variation. Yes.

He's like, ooh, I'm just a little freak. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I agree. More freak, please. More freaks than Star Wars, I am out. yeah um the last philoni zone thing that was the middle episode that i didn't mention uh is all about the dagger it's all about like how do we make a dagger that feels like not shitty um yeah he says

in the mortis trilogy when christian taylor and i were discussing these stories after georgia to lead them out we are discussing how do we conquer this how do we bring it all together to make sense and still maintain some sort of continuity with the other star wars films you know something this supernatural You know, I would tell Christian you have to think of these entire three episodes that take place as episodes that take place when Luke is inside the tree of Dagaba this is all spiritual, this is all metaphor,

this is all symbolic in some way. Ultimately, the dagger of mortis is really just more of a metaphorical device. The difficult thing about the dagger was trying to work out the logic of it. You have this weapon that can kill these ultra-beings. Joel Aaron and I made the blade manifest itself out of smoke

so that it seemed to have some sort of a more magical property. always thought of it was a very a very vognarian scene to go down to the depths it's surrounded by fire but if we branch our discussion out from the dagger the metaphor i can tell you that many things in this arc of stories is a metaphor everything is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six star wars films and it's like this is like this is like you know down to as we didn't say it but the last thing the father says is that he tells the son that he knew there was still good in him or that there was always good in him because that's of course course what Luke says to Vader at the end of return and it's like why what no what good did you know

was in him you know like also what what is even the realm of good and evil on a planet where there's only three people who are all immortal gods there is no society they're outside of history they're just like like it's not evil to make a fucked up tree that's not evil you know what I mean and on a planet where like no one needs to eat food it's not fucked up to make that tree decay because you're like me i'm winter mode like it's nothing it doesn't exist it's outside of the realm of morality so like i don't understand like the second you and this is why he says you have to take it as allegor you have to take it as a realm of metaphor but when you get into like the the sun saying shit like you were the only one i ever loved it's like why what in what like there's no you're trying to blend the allegorical with

the material in this really and with the not just the material but with the the allegorical with the the melodramatic and like melodrama relies so not that you can't ever do that but melodrama really relies on circumstance you know you need there to be these heightened emotions that arise out of ridiculous circumstances these these absurd moments of intersection and drama that produce this over dramatic effect uh in the in the people and so the brother throwing himself across her grave and being like you were the only one i ever loved doesn't work when like two weeks ago before anybody came here this was a realm of like immutable absolutes that nothing ever happened inside of it's like they weren't going to like you know art class together you know there's nothing happening here what is an example of the of a good thing that the son did like it would be so different if there was that a single point in any of these arcs where both either the son or the daughter weren't the absolutist light, dark version of versions of themselves and was speaking to the oscillation. What was a good thing she did before anyone else arrived? What was an evil thing he did before

anyone else arrived? Right. Well, it appears the only thing has been obedience to father. Right. Like, that's the other part of this is. What's he even asking them to do before anybody else is there? Hey, kids, just stand there and be in balance, okay? I guess. Don't try to upset that balance. Right. Was he making too many lava volcanoes? Like, what was he doing that was evil? Well, and so, like, to the melodrama point, especially, um, to, uh,

like, you need, if the father, if the son is like, as the arc of many young people is, like you begin chafing against the family unit and you want to establish an identity independent of it. And some ways you do that are positive.

some are destructive, and go a variety of ways. But here it's like, but that still requires circumstance. There still has to be something beyond the family that says, okay, well, this is what I mean by like, I'm going to establish my identity in this way. And that needs to be, there needs to be an external to the family. You can't just be like, we're trapped here in this immutable realm of three beings who exist at like three absolutes, two extremes. And then a perfect balance point, there is no escape from that, like, from that structure

that is interesting in the family drama way. Right. And it's trying to say like, ah, trying to throw off the balance is a rebellion against the fight. Like, shit, even Milton knew that wasn't compelling enough. Exactly. Right. The devil needs to at least think he has some sort of philosophical perspective on all this. And it gets closest when the, when the, when the sun.

is like I want to get out there and change the world and so maybe there's a space here for them to have expanded that core question of should we be stuck in here or should we go out there is there a debate around that I don't know it totally sounded like even Milton like that fucking hack like even that second shit Milton knew you couldn't do that but I'm more mean in a story that is structured to how do you like make the act of rebellion against absolute goodness compelling and sympathetic, Milton finds solutions for that and creates a story that, like,

accidentally turns the devil into the protagonist in some people's eyes. But nevertheless, like, it is, like, the result is an exceedingly compelling story and, like, character portrait. Here, it's like, I just want to be even darker-sided.

It's like, oh, no, son. Yeah. I mean, and this is the other thing. Like, I get the comparison to the cave scene and empire of stepping into this realm of pure allegory and metaphor. But one, the metaphor there is clearer. Luke kills Vader and inside of Vader's helmet is Luke's face representing, you know, you can interpret that many different ways, but it's a very clear image. And you could very quickly draw conclusions to be about how, you know, what it means to do violence in relation to trying to bring equal. the Dream to the Force and Justice to the Galaxy.

You can talk about what Luke is afraid of. There's lots of ways to read that very quickly. It's also two minutes. It's also two minutes, and most of it's in slow motion. So it's like a minute of action. This is three full episodes of existing inside of this pseudo-allegorical space. And it's a lot, it's a lot, it's a much bigger ask that they've given themselves. You know, I don't know that I would want to be in the writer's room trying to solve this dilemma, right?

this is a really tough thing to try to try to get right inside of the constraints that you have. So I'm, like, sympathetic to that. But it really is, Natalie, you said it earlier. It's a really fascinating set of episodes, even if I don't think it's, like, particularly good. So, like, I'm giving props on, like, making something I'll think about a lot. I've been thinking about these episodes since I first saw them. You know, how many times have I talked about, I can't wait for us to get to the Mortis arc? And it's not because I think that they're bad episodes.

It's because I think that they are, they really. hit on something in a really evocative way, but also really represent the shortcomings of how Star Wars lets itself talk about these big issues. Exactly. I think the Star Wars story to me is like fascinating ideas and poor

execution. Yeah. Like consistently movie to movie, show to show. It like, there are so many conceits that I think gesture towards

the potential gesture towards the potential of like a really really strong compelling universe and it's like those little morsels we talk about all the time that like keep us hooked that keep us watching

but I don't have expectation for execution at all but I'm here for the morsels like I think I think those I are interesting enough and fascinating enough that it keeps me wanting to find to seek more out um i just personally have had to like reckon with the reckon with not feeling satisfied and not

feeling like fulfilled by by their execution i mean obviously i haven't you know i'm fairly new to Star Wars compared to y'all and i haven't read as much like um you know extracurricular content or played as many games or different things like that so i i know that you know i'm sure people are like no this book is or this comic or whatever is probably really really good and i agree with you but i just am talking about in terms of what we've seen so far in mainline execution it's yeah yeah it's also super noticeable here because what you went of doing by doing this as three episodes is you start out with this really interesting concept and you make these like really interesting statements and create these characters and whatever else

and then just as we go on the concepts there just get more and more diluted to the point where you're like why what what's going on here and i think like earlier austin said like they're splitting the difference between like we can do self-contained narrative arcs but then also a broader arc and they really can't because the thing where I think this like where this falls apart in some profound ways is that the stakes change wildly from episode to episode and it becomes really inconsistent if we're going to enter the realm of allegory it probably works better if we stay in the mode of the first episode for the full three and you can still get to some of these beats where, like, Anakin tries to figure out what does, like, holding balance

within yourself mean and, like, different relationship with the force. And he still ends up, like, because of his fear and his doubt and his terror at his own power and what he has done and might do in the future, he still ends up showing that, like, he can't play this role, or at least balance, the balance he can bring is not good. It's not balance that people want to see. I think all that stuff could work, but instead what they get is, one episode that touches on that where it's like, Anakin, you're the chosen one, balance these two extreme poles.

And then from there it moves in this realm of every you know, it's an unhappy family drama, basically. And it doesn't work nearly as well because the requisite elements of that story aren't there. And the Jedi's role in it really ends up

becoming kind of weird too it's important to think about we have this background we know where this episode comes from it comes from george being in the room and saying i want to introduce this fucked up family of force gods and not from i want a set of episodes where we have our protagonists go through some weird shit where they are confronting the darkness inside themselves or their relationship to the force it starts with the subject instead of the of the verb in a sense, right? It starts with here are the characters. Here's the lore I want to introduce.

Here's the Wikipedia article that needs to exist. Force gods. Force users, capital F, capital U. And not, we should do an arc where we drill down into this emotional relationship. And I think it's fine to do both of those. As a storyteller, I do both of those all the time. Let me tell you, sometimes you come up with a sick lore idea and you're like, I cannot fucking wait to get these motherfuckers on screen.

But when you're also releasing a three-part 22-minute episode per-episode series, you're in the realm where you have to make some, there's going to be repercussions from going at it in that direction. I think the inconsistent characterization, especially around Anakin, and I don't just mean that he forgot he could do the thing where he leashes them. I really mean his relationship to his guilt and the decisions he's making throughout this arc come from not maybe centering there and starting there. So, I don't know.

Fun arc to talk about. I knew it would be. I'm really glad to be back in front of a microphone with y'all. Yeah. And to the point, like, this is sort of the show in some ways that it's most interesting, but also, like, you can see the places where it's, like, ambition runs ahead of its ability to execute. I think the next episode. we're going to do, we're going to see it operating in a mode that it's gotten very good

at operating within, which is like, again, military sci-fi adventure stories and some like cool tie-ins to existing bits of Star Wars like backstory and lore. So the next episode we're going to be digging into now that we're getting on what should be a regular schedule from here. I don't think there's any more secrets of the Jedi that are trying to be suppressed. So the next episode we're going to have, going up in two weeks, is going to be on episodes 18, 19, and 20 of the third season. That's an entire arc around an escape from a prison called the Citadel, and it introduces a major new slash old character. In between those two episodes, next week we're going to have a Patreon Q&A as usual. And I think we already alluded to it.

We are listening to the Jedi Lost audiobook to get to the bottom of what did Duke who see out in the universe that made him this way? How did this cultured erudite Jedi end up being a fascist? I'm like we're all most of the way through it. It's really interesting. I'm excited to talk about it. Oh, fuck yeah. also as we did for visions yeah we i don't think we can contain our thoughts on the book of boba fat so i think we're going to record a quick pod of their reactions to that series when its run

concludes next month and if i have anything to say about it we will give you a definitive ranking of the moss vespas if that sounds good please consider supporting us on patreon at patreon.com slash civilized. Until next time, please rate and review us on the podcast platform of your choice. And remember, if you get some bummer news about where your choices and character are inevitably taking you,

just try and forget it by hanging with your buds until you feel better. Great advice. Good advice. You know what the Jedi need is just like a really, yeah, go to time that is. Just a really basic, like, bro, who just shows up.

And it's like, hey, Anakin, I got a couple growlers. Yeah. What's his name? What was his name? Quinlan. Quinlan Voss. You should be going around. Voss has to come through and be like, let's talk.

People out to get wings and just let's talk this through. I'd like to get wings with Quillan Voss. Dude, it's trivia night. It's trivia night. I won't even use, I won't even use the force to like get the answer. It won't be like last time. Okay, maybe a little. Quilland Voss is the perfect thing for this

He can be like, I'm refilling your drink, bro And then like see all of the paid in your heart You're right You're right It's literally the thing you can do Wow I want that for them Bro so like by the way

How are things with Padmay going? She's seen that What's that um Assassin chick's name Like God her name always That's my mind. But you know the one I'm talking about.

The one with the wall, what curves? Like, I'm just asking. I'm just curious. Yeah, obviously I hope we bring her to justice. Got to get her. Got it. I hope they put me on the hit team. Oh, God.

But like, you know, she doesn't seem all bad, right? Like, you ever get to feeling there might be something to her? Like, she kind of, like, might be nicer than the other. Well, they're only grievous, right? Like, she's not grievous, bad. I don't know. I'm going to be able to be. We're going to be.

You're going to be able to be. Thank you.