A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 49: "Nobody's Listening!" (Andor 09)

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

There are many things about Andor that, push come to shove, I think we could have predicted. Self-sufficient (if selfish) rogue slowly warms to a rebellion? Sure. Imperial bureaucracy tightens its snare around the revolutionary and the uninvolved alike? Definitely. Coruscanti political drama? Probably, hell, they had that in Clone Wars. But there are scenes in this week's Andor that never in one hundred years would we have imagined to have shown up. Here? In Star Wars? No. Couldn't be. Disney wouldn't let it happen.  And yet... here we are.  NEXT TIME: Andor Episode 10 Show Notes #Keero Fancam by Patrick Willems Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Austin Walker Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)

Hey, everybody. It's Austin here before the episode starts. I just wanted to give you a heads up that the audio quality is not up to our usual standard. I know I'm a perfectionist about that and that you probably won't notice, or at least that's what a lot of you will tell me very kindly on Twitter, regardless of if you notice or not. We had one file with some issues, and then someone had to head out of town, and so I ended up with only two regular complete files. And so I ended up just using our backup, uh, which has issues because of the way discord, uh, ducts, audio sometimes. Um, you know, I tried my best to work with what we had. Uh, uh, but if you notice a lack of, of, um, uh, smooth sounding audio in this one, please know, it's a one off and, and we'll be back to our normal good quality in the next episode. Okay, I'm going to shut up and let you get to the episode. Enjoy. Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zankely, joined by Ali Akpora, Austin.

Right now we are continuing with our weekly coverage of Andor before we resume later this year. Our analysis of the Clone Wars supported, as always, by our listeners at patreon.com slash civilized. So, sorry to do this, but I just have to get off my chest. I feel like I was ahead of the curve again on something, and I just want to look at credit for it. We're going to get credit.

I need my little proppers So a couple weeks ago You all might recall we were getting set up And I mentioned offhand That we'd all overlooked something Pretty obvious about Cyril Karn Which is that he had incredible Norman Bates vibes Yeah

Terrible relationship with an overbearing mother Prone to fixation And just a sense of pressure building Behind an increasingly bullshit facade Of calm composure Anyway like a bunch of stuff is happening happened in Andor since then, and I kind of forgot about it, until he showed up at that woman's office. I never thought I would ever see a scene like this in Star Wars. Like real Star Wars,

not fanfic. You were the one who said he was going to get shot down to the street. What are you talking about? This is Diffy. These are our minds. Those are our minds. That's in our head. That's like, that's fantasy land. That's like that's the fun place. They put the fun place in Star Wars. What a sequence. Like, Austin's theory is, like, a dramatic irony based on, like, he'll hear Luton's voice. And, of course, it won't be... Right. But not that, like, yo, this weirdo, like, just out of context.

Like, it's not part of the main story. It is just that where does Cyril Karn fit and all this? He is going to turn into a stalker of deadrope of all people. Down... Catastrophic. Down... You know. This is...

There's a... There's a, he's going to get government funds to repair himself. He's down so bad. You know, FEMA has been called in. It's bad. James Jesus Angleton, I love you. I will say this does immediately, Rob, you did immediately reconnect. We're jumping way ahead here.

We'll get there for real. But you immediately had a, a rework of the recognizes Lutheran in the street and get shot down theory. yeah that like it could be that he will still have that moment because they did quite pointedly set up that like he has one piece of information that could help identify who access is but then also now I think the next time he shows up to dad row with some critical piece of information she's going to think he's like a crazy fabulous who's doing it for attention like my suspicion is maybe this does end up with him getting gunned down could be because he's He scares the shit out of Dedra, or he gets tossed in the clink. Or this could be the beautiful of a deeply fucked up, terrible relationship. A thing I know many people are rooting for, like Natalie. That's my vote. Uh-huh.

Hashtag hero. Can we get here honestly, please, and start at the beginning or start with a plotline that somewhere else? Yeah. So the broad outlines of this one are, This thing sort of centers on prisons in a lot of ways. We've got Bix being held in custody by Diderot, who is fully mask off. None of this velvet glove, intellectual detective shit. It's all like pliers and car batteries for her as she begins torturing Bix

and setting up what she continues to hope will be a trap on Farix, hoping that Andor will come back looking for his. looking for his mom. Meanwhile, Andor is in prison, and things just keep getting worse there. The elder member of his table, Ulav, spends the entire episode showing increasing signs of physical

and mental distress. And alongside that, there's evidence that something really horrible has happened at the prison. At the very end of the episode, those two things converge as we discover that as Ulaf passes away from a stroke, the prison medic, who is a prisoner,

himself, shows up and gives the word to Andy Circus's Kino and Cassidy Andor that the thing that happened that caused all those rumors was an entire floor of prisoners being killed because, wait for it, the game accidentally was given away when someone who was released from their sentence showed up on a different floor immediately after being led out of prison. And so once it was clear, the Narcena 5 is a closed living. and nobody ever escapes, they had to zap everyone who had learned that horrible secret.

But that also means that at the end of the episode, Kino, who has been trying to get Andor to leave him alone by any conspiracies to escape from the prison has bought all in in Andy service. Based Kino just fucking dropped.

Yo, Gollum is going to get you through this. Okay? It's so funny to me that his name is Kino given how certain sectors are the internet just used the word keynote to mean based, to mean extremely cool. So I have to know if they knew that that's what they were doing with keynote. Somebody in there knew. Someone on there is extremely online, yes, 100%.

Meanwhile, just as a quick aside, so I don't forget it, there's another plot that Dedra has caught up in just briefly, which is remember that Saw Guerrera, when he met with Lut, with Luthan wanted no part of a plot that Luton was cooking up with another rebel group. And in this episode, Pardagaz and DEDRA stumble

onto a member of that rebel group trying to set up for this attack on Steelhouse, or Spellhouse. And so that ends with that group seemingly about to get walked through an ambush and the rebels and the Imperial sort of being posted up and waiting on that as well. So that is just a reminder that

sort of these loose coalition of rebel groups that's out there one of them has been compromised and exactly the way

that Saw I think was was worried about speaking of speaking of speaking of like deeply compromised situations

I suppose when Mama finds herself in a few her cousin shows up randomly I don't know how we didn't I don't know

how we didn't how did we not predict that I'm so mad I was like oh she's Mandalorian when when they

said, oh, your cousins, I was like, oh, rich, Mandelorian, she's Mandalorian. She's Mandelorian. Like, Manaloreans. I don't know if we're going to, single Mandalorian in this show. That word is never...

Mandalorians are Star Wars to me. That's one of the things about Andor that just no Unlorians yet. Fuck, bro. I'm not sure it's real Star Wars. We can't, I can't go hard on these. We can't just talk about it.

There are a lot of bad tweets. I was going, I was going feral today on Star Wars Twitter, it tempted me like I've never been tempted before to quote tweet dunk on a rando for having just the worst opinions

but I'm not that person you're not that person none of us are we'll talk privately you share it in the DM yes and then you sub tweet them on a podcast with thousands of listeners so it turns out when one of them is cousin is Val

that when Vell is described as a rich girl running away from her family that family is when Mavah's extended family but also there's we'll get to the scene in detail because there's some clues

about like what their relationship is to Luthan like again who's the tail who's wagging the dog what's going on here these things are remain in play what does not remain in play is how much a piece of shit parent is

because he sucks and has a as a true ghastly scene. But Ma'amama's real problem in this episode is that she has an expenditure on rebel stuff that she can't explain, uh, that her banker Taye shows up and basically says, I cannot cover this. But there's a mobbed up chandrelin who could. I can't wait to see him. But Mahler wants no part of this, but there may be no other option. And we do not know what this implies, but we're going to find out soon. He wants to come to the dinner party.

He wants to come over. It's not just you're in bed with him. It's you have to like bring him into society. He wants respectability. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh, I can't wait. And again, as long as we're talking about poisonous dinner tables, Cyril Karn has been working late at the office.

He and his mother, their sniping has just reached fever pitch but she is mollified by the news that he's been promoted and that is why he's been so busy lately that's partly true but while he has been promoted

he seeks out DEDRA at ISB headquarters approaches her in the street and to thank her for his promotion assuming that she was responsible for it she is appalled she had nothing to do with it

And she's the first baffled, as to why he is there, until he begins his Mr. Darcy, I can bear it no longer, I must tell you how ardently I admire and love you. He tells her, I want what you want, as he's physically restraining her from exiting the conversation and tells her that, She gave his life meaning and reminded him that there is beauty and justice in the universe. She decides to play hard to get, I guess, by telling him if I ever see you again, I'm going to have you locked in a cage on the outer rim. You can't tell him that. It's good. That's flirting.

You don't need to be doing this. He like it. He wants that. There are lots of... We should... Hmm. I have seen people reading this scene. in which she is more into it than you might think.

And I've seen people reading this scene, reading it that she is like absolutely deserves no negative attention ever. The range of the range of the reading on this scene, the ambiguity apparent in this scene from the responses is massive. There was a gulp here. Everyone has different readings. It's part of why I think it's a good television program. and all of us come from a background entertainment that we've been steeped for decades

in fucked up exchanges leading to the most romantic shit we've seen in our lives totally and so this is this like if you if you bring that lens to it I can see how you get to like oh damn like the chemistry is just like insane in this scene and meanwhile my skin crawls right off my body right and just like out different strokes out into the hallway. You know? It's true. But we'll get there.

We'll get there. Is that all the big stuff? Is there anything else? I feel like that's it. I feel like that's. No Luthean this week. No Marva. No saw.

But you know what? Since so much of this does center on Dedra, though, let's just get into it. You know, with her various plots throughout all this. The show, the episode sort of opens on her, doing her interrogation. of Bix on Ferrex and as I mentioned

like it's so funny to me that she tries the well she starts out she channels a bit of Hugo weaving in the Matrix honestly

the pointed neck crack the like weird disgusted just vibe through the through the whole scene but she tries

to present this facade of hey listen we're both reasonable people I'm a professional I hate, you know, the main thing is I just don't want to waste any time. She tries all the see bit clinical and like one, one entrepreneurial woman to, to another. One girl boss to another.

Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, I forgot. She literally does use the line of like, you're a business owner as a way of trying to like put them on the same level, you know. Hey, I respect you a little bit. You're paying your taxes to the empire. And the thing is, like, Bix sees through it. like bix knows there's no way she's getting out of this without being torture even if even if the first phase in interrogation goes well

deader is going to have to torture her and bicks like calls her on it basically and that's when you see that like that's when the reveals we we get this often with with the empire characters like it attracts sadists they can max it to one degree another uh the guys on narkina are open about it they they love their little electroshock floor um they they they they they they get off on having that power. Detra masks it. She masks the ISB. I'm not like other Imperials. I'm not a dumb thug or a bureaucrat like the rest of these folks. I'm subtle. I'm, I'm you know, like, elegant. But actually,

here out of sight of the ISB, out of sight of Partigaz, when it's like, you know, down to brass tacks of what the job is, she loves this shit. She, yes, yes and no. I think Dr. Gore, is is 100% that that character that sort of archetype that we've seen throughout the series so far of the the the person who delight like the sadist that delights in and the way that he

talks about his torture technique with such excitement and like fervor and I just I'm so I'm getting so jazzed explaining how I'm going to torture you like this is just such a fascinating process and I just can't wait for you to experience it because it really is such a special thing that we've we've come and we've created here it's it's super perverted um but I don't know I think day Dada and Bix see through each other immediately and in a way I think the line the exchange that comes at at the end of this where Bix says you're not going to believe me anyway are you and Deidre says no I'm not like they they all of this sort of preamble is just that it's just gesturing towards civility it's Deidre gesturing towards you know I see you as an equal she does not

see fix as an equal fix knows that um Deja knows that bix knows that um and I think the almost the most earnest line from Dejra in this exchange in the beginning is this I don't like wasting time. The way she like has this little wine at the end of that delivery of I don't like wasting time.

Like this is just I don't want to be here. I want my I want the information that I want and I want to leave. I have no interest I don't believe her. Really? Because she luxuriates in explaining to Bix

every maneuver she made you're the only one who uses that station did you know that you know we had pocket in here for so and such and such a long time uh you know that's when you met with with axe she doesn't use the word axes

but that's when you met with your contact you met with him six times and she doesn't I'm going way faster she's prowling around the room like a lion you know like pacing around its prey she's playing with Bix I think it's part of her like interrogatory

affect, like she's trying to break her with this. And you're right that she knows very quickly it's not going to work. But I do think she gets off on this sort of part of the job. I think there is, the way that she poses, the way that she presents, she likes being in charge. She likes being in command of the room. That's the way that I felt from this at least. Yeah. I think that that's accurate i think the i can definitely identify with the the sense or i can definitely recognize the sentiment that she is reveling in the power dynamic here but it's more so like she doesn't she doesn't stick around to watch the you know she leaves as soon as like the torture begins when the uh you know the uh you know the the

hotel uh prefect the guy from episode I have a or that Tigo Tigo. Tigo yes Tigo who if you remember was the person who

approached Blevins when they were walking around Farrick's and asked if they could uh I want to be a prefect yes he wanted to be a prefect he wanted like he wanted some sort of you know status symbol

uh to to go along with his his new position um he jumps at the chance to make a show of what's going of this situation of this investigation to make a public make it a public display of um you know this is what we won't stand for here on this is what the empire will not stand for here on ferricks and he sounds horny what he says when pigo is like i'd like to hang him And it's like, Tigo's horny. Okay. Yeah, he, he, he gets so jazzed, uh, by the prospect of this.

And, and Deja, it's, it's, it's, that's wasted time to hurt. Right. I think. Yeah. I think you're right. And, uh, in retrospect, she, she is reveling in this. Um, but it's more so the, the, the, like, getting her hands dirty that she has no interest in. She's not going to stay in the room.

like you said, yeah. Yeah, it feels almost like this part of the interrogation even is just like sort of a warm-up for Dr. Gorse. Like the thing that she's enjoying doing is flaunting how much information she was able to get out of pack, right? Like she's playing it both ways as being like, I'm going to tell you everything that I know, so you can tell me everything that you know. But also in terms of being like, yeah, this shit actually works and we're going to do this to you and you're going to tell me shit. Hey, what's the thing? What's the thing? What's the torture?

Oh, it's so bad. This is, he was, he was in the lab, mixing up the kids. Working in the lab. Yeah. Yeah, he's sampling, uh, he's sampling those beats of this race of, this race of people being annihilated. And so. Sentient species there, quite unusual. Quite unusual to find out.

I used, I said was because this is, this is, this is, this is, Andor's Nubovindy, by the way. Oh, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Different between these two shows. He's like, hey, we made a cool discovery as we wiped out a sentient species that was preventing us from, I don't know, probably building anotherirstrip. As we wiped them out, they made fucked up horrible noises that were so nightmarish to listen

to that the imperial, like, listening ship, the listening post that was set up, to observe that the job was being done properly, all, like, were rendered catatonic by what they heard. And the Empire was, like, awesome. This is a cool discovery. And so Gorsd has remixed a, like, supercut of this genocide, like, being carried out. And we'll just blast people with it to the same psychic damage. He's, like, didn't he point?

Yes, he pointedly says, a vexed a part where we think it's the children that are being killed and you know there's like two things here one is obviously there's the clockwork orange like aspect of this but also like it occurred to me that reminded me of like

those stories you would hear before this job was increasingly like at least the first pass it was increasingly being done by AI though I think these offices still exist but like when you heard about like offices deep within YouTube or Facebook or something where like people had to vet videos coming over

and it was like tons of child abuse, torture porn and like beheading videos and like snuff content and such that people doing this job would just have to be exposed to tons of it so that it wouldn't of course

end up on the platform where users could see it or where it could be passed around and there's like stories about like just a horrible psychic damage this this inflicted and this sort of put me in in mind of that is here we have this like awful byproduct of like what the for the next way for they're doing and enabling and putting into the universe uh but also like

the empire waste not want not uh it takes like this type of damage and and violence and turns it around into a useful uh like secondary resource uh to to be used against further enemies also called to mind very you know obviously the use of um sonic weapons uh directly in military encounters and then also the use of uh you know the c a using music in guantanamo bay and and to uh interrogate and break quote quote break uh detainees um i the the you know in that case it is not using the sounds of a distant genocide that has been re-sampled. It was just using, you know, very abrasive American music against detainees. But you can do your own research on this. You could go ahead and hit that Google CIA

music torture, CIA music interrogation. Find yourself a list because that stuff is out there. So, and we see the impact that has on Bix. Yeah, it is, it is torturous, you know, but this time we see her, she is, she appears to be almost catatonic, and this is where, like, you know, we don't see the interrogation, but she gives up all the relevant info about when she actually saw Andor for the last time, what's been, what's been going on, on Farrix, and that's where the prefect is like, I want a hang pack, and Dedra does not. Or what's left of him, right? Yeah. Yeah. An interesting detail that I don't want to miss is that it seems like the empire, namely, Dejra, knows about Clea because specifically Deidra asked Bix what was describing this encounter that Puck had. First of all, Pock attended a separatist meeting two years ago.

it is still so facetting to me that we're like re to have this like re-contextualization of separatists in this like post uh empire post-republic or in the empire post-republic

um you know society world that we're in right now being separatists are evil separatists are evil people separatists are you know like they are the bad guys and now uh here like it's just reinforcing some things that we've seen in clone wars but is you know not within the mainline franchise nearly at all that a lot of people sought separation from the republic who weren't sith lords and didn't want evil and world domination like a lot of people were seeking um uh you know secession from the republic for their own personal reasons

And I also kind of wonder if like, you know, does something happen in the wake of Revenge of the Sith that like separatism changes as a cause right? Because like a lot of the puppet master figures are wiped out at the end of that movie. And so what's funny is that what's left is the ideology that was basically four patsies, you know, in the separatist camp. Yeah, maybe it does suddenly become a thing where people are examining it again as the empire like put the call. clamps on and things like, well, hang on. Maybe these folks weren't, uh, weren't, weren't wrong. It's been 15 years or 14 years since, since Revenge of the Sith, right? You can imagine that is enough time for people to be like, hmm, fuck.

Maybe they had some good ideas. But you're right. Like, Natalie, you mentioned that, that was my assumption too, that Cleo was the woman that, that, uh, met him and was like, you really want to, like, take it to the empire. Uh, why don't you, like, work with me? And then the other part of that was, yeah, leaving that radio set up for ages. And the only person that ever used it was Bix. And it appears that the entire time, the person that Luton was most interested in was Andor,

lurking in the background there as, like, one of Bix's, like, shadowy, like, sources for high-value goods. But it just, like, it sort of casts, it raises a question. of how long has this been going on, right? Like, you get a sense that Mademah's maybe months or years into this, but, like, if Clayah was out there years ago doing this, and they're playing these long games to develop, like, sources and collaborators, uh, it does almost, it renders Luth and Clea into almost, like, terrifyingly deliberate figures in the background of this,

because it's like, it's Palpatine-esque, right? in the ability to be like, we are going to cast lines out and years will go by before we start reeling them in. It's interesting, though, because now it feels as if everyone involved has decided, no, we can't wait any longer, right? To some degree, maybe that's what makes you a good Palpatine-esque figure, is knowing when it's time to move and time to stop kind of putting lines in the water. but if this was one of however money listening posts up or you know contact points up

that they were running or working with other groups to run for a decade for five years even let's say that's a long time to be slowly building that network and also in some ways it does make me a little more sympathetic to last episodes monmouthma who was like I thought we were building a network we spent five years building a network and just putting listening posts up and putting up whatever like yeah maybe sometimes you you know rescue some people or whatever, but you're not, we're not blowing up Aldani, we're not doing the thing, we're not going after shipments in this way.

And if that's how slow they were moving, I could see where Mon Mothmo became convinced that that was the pace and would stay the pace, you know? Which wrong. So, with that information in hand, DEDRA returns

to Corrassant and lays out to Part of Gaz's team what the plan is for Farrex, that it's just going to be, yeah, it is going to be basically they're staking it out and hoping that Andor comes back in. They made the Aldani connection. And they, like, now they're just going to kind of sit back and wait. They still have no inkling that they actually have Andor in their prison system under another name. Oh, who makes the Aldani connection? Shoutouts to the homie.

Dr. Gors? No, it's not Dr. Gors, right? It's the false Cyril. Cyril, it's her little intern boy. Oh, the beard thing, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, they mentioned Dr. Sorry, I thought you were calling him a beard for her for a second, or vice versa, which I could read, I can make that read. I can see that. I can see it.

Okay, yeah, I have to call it out. Bix, Bix and Dade. What are you talking about? No, Natalie. Wait, what? You're saying you were catching vibes between Bix and Dendre? Jesus, crap. Absolutely not.

The way that she leaned. over and like whispered in her ear. Oh my God. I'm just saying, okay. I've people in my DMs validating me. I've people in my DMs validating me. I bet. I'll just say that. Uh-huh. I bet.

There are lesbians in my DMs. Shout out to the lesbians. Bravely than the troops. I love you so much. So. Oh, actually, it doesn't remind me of one other thing, though. Dedra hasn't put in the work, though, to really

still know what's going on in Ferris when she talks about, like, your co-worker was killed trying to rescue you. It wasn't a coworker, Dedra. It was her boyfriend. Like, it's a small thing, but it does matter. It's just, like, a lack of attention here that, like, it's very

reminiscent of Blevyn. This is what the organization turns you into. There's just too much shit to deal with that you can't drill down on all. And I think that that's part of what's happening here, too, when, I don't know this character's name, the guy who has been popping Pizos with her, staying up late, filling out the report and such. Chad Karn.

Right. Chad Karn. Was, when he pops up and is like, oh, we actually can say that it's the same, he's tied to Aldani because he used to not be clean-shaven and then he comes back with a lot of money and he's clean-shaven. The people in Aldani said that the group that hit them were all clean-shaven. And one of the things that I read from that was, We've been talking a lot about the politics of the ISB meeting room and, like, who gets to talk and, like, the bit where last time Yalarin was there and Partigas, like, spoke up in defense of, of, of, of, Dedra.

Here, there's a degree of, like, when he stands up and says, he was clean-shaven, everybody turns and looks at him, and everyone's breath is held, and it's like, okay, is he now making the same sort of play long term that Dedra was making, I guess, Blevin, where he wants. He wants to step up now, too. He wants the white jacket. He wants the promotion. You know, there's like, let's be clear. There's some deadbeats in the ISB room. There's two of them at the end of this scene. My dude with the, with the mustache and the older, the older fellow.

Well, hang on. Redhead with the mustache at least knows, remembers that they couldn't have sold the Star Path because we recovered it. Right. True. But you're right. You're right. And he's been, he's been suspiciously in scenes lately.

I have my eyes on that motherfucker. That's true. And where is Blevin? And where is Blevin? and Blevine's gone. Blevine disappeared. But I do the bit at the end where part of gas is like, you know, all right. And also I'll need blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, immediately.

And they're like, yeah. And he's like, y'all are the only two in the room. Yeah. What of you has to go do the thing? My point being, the little intern guy definitely could step up into a role in the foreseeable future. And I think it's so funny that we're seeing that, that, what you were saying about was, it's too much they put too much

on one person's plate in this way it happened to Blevin it's gonna happen to Dedra Dedra can't be in 30 places at once she's already over

overstretched She's already taking remote remote torture interviews You're right Like genuinely she she's spread thin and I do think

I have to wonder if her immediate subordinate this you know this guy will become a threat to Dedra like if she if he will

if his promise will be alarming to her at a certain point his name is H-E-E-R-T I looked it up Hirt that hangs in that scene right because she sort of nods thanks to him

but it's very she does but it's like ooh you spoke this wasn't this wasn't on program as it worked like this was we hadn't rehearse this part. This is your little insight that you're sort of trotting out

in front of Parthagas, but maybe didn't try it out in front of me. Right. But it does support her point. So it's an ambiguous moment. And I guess for some folks, there are some more ambiguous moments had in Deirdre's way as she is met by Cyril Karn on the footbridge

outside ISB headquarters. And I will say this. We have to go to Kahn's Yeah, we have to go. So that we could then just wrap it all up together. Yeah, that's a good point. Mommy is upset with baby because baby has been working late. And mommy has been making his food and doing his clothes, washing his clothes.

What food? What food? He pour cereal. She makes two meals a day To support him She makes two meals a day And then he has cereal for breakfast It's a well-balanced meal

You know she makes that bomb lasagna You know Her Oh The Ziti, are you kidding me Let me get a bite Of that Gaba ghoul Edy Karn

Please I'm begging you Allie I'm sorry For all this anti-Italian out of it on the podcast. It's pro-italian. You just have to... I love her.

I love her. I love her. I love her. Mm-hmm. So, anyway, there's something important, which is... What?

The part where he's caught her turning his room when he's not around? Going into... His private box? His private box. His private box. I have ways of knowing

that you've been in my private box. mom well and also like so these two do deserve each other they're both completely out of pocket uh like her that line where she where like she's talking about uh you know when you were on

uh morlana morlana one uh what you know where would we be if i'd let your neglect drive me insane and i'm like yeah where would we be if she had lost her mind in his absence When she says, I find you a job, I press your uniform, I prepare two meals a day, I move mountains to scrape you off the floor and bring you back on your feet. And what do I get? Where's the return on my investment?

Ugh. Yeah. She says, the shadow of a son, a tenant, a stranger. And she loves saying it, you know? Well, when she says months ago, yeah, she basically talks about that months. ago, you know, when he had no need of her, you know, he was happy to ignore her. And it's just the, like, that vibe from the start of him failing was the greatest thing that ever happened to her. Yeah. The degree to which she hated him having a job that could support him and, like,

allow him to live away is just nightmares. Like, it's, he had, like, for a guy like him, he did have a good job. It was a shitty job being a want to be fascist, but, like, it was a good job for someone like him, and he knew that. But, like, she's so thrilled that didn't work out because now she gets what she wanted all along, which is to use the Harlow Connect, to make him totally dependent. She hits the fucking Jessica,

Walter, Lucille, Bluth, Michael, smile, laugh, look when he explains that he's been promoted. And, like, she, it is like, it is like a hyena starting to smile. It's so funny how quickly she wants to take credit for everything.

And terrifying. Just, oh, what a household. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's so, I mean, this is, this is, you know, a family dynamic that is not completely original. Like, the overbearing, guilt-tripping mother that just is, is so, the way that she's so gleeful, that her moods changes on a dime when Cyril says you know I've been promoted and she's like I knew they'd recognize your promise

oh this makes me so happy here take some more Coco Space puffs She like super good visual thing that happens She's sitting on the left hand side of the screen He's sitting on the right hand side of the screen And she goes Uncle Harlow would be so happy And he's like

The demands of my time will be increased And she like ups from the left hands from her frame. She like intrudes all the way in on him 100% breaks the plane and like comes over to be next to him and it's such a small little quick detail

but I like ugh like I backed away you know like don't know no don't touch me no one touch me And this is the thing like Cyril's a villain and a creep but these scenes like there's enough like common experience here in humanity that you're like

there's the line in in Manhunter actually where they sort of ask the Will Graham the profile or it sounds like you sort of you sympathize with this guy and he says I sympathize with the abused child but I have no sympathy at all for the murder and I think that's where like what's cool about

Cyril Karn as a character in this performance is like you can see like it's too late for this guy but also you can see like all the years of accumulated hurt that like a lot of people have inflicted on them or that they're familiar from a lot of family dynamics. And so, like, even though he is, he is a creep, like, there's a degree of sympathy

in this portrayal. I know we've belabored this at this point, but just having these kinds of domestic dramas, these kinds of domestic dynamics in Star Wars is such a treat. It is just, it's just great. It's like if they kept the camera rolling in a new hope when Peru and Uncle Owen. when they're talking about, like, their concerns about Luke. Like, Andor is the show that stays with that, right? Of, like, normal people dealing with, like, life in this universe and what's out there.

So, yeah, DEDRA is on her way to work, and Cyril is waiting, not necessarily hidden, but sort of out of view on the bridge into ISB headquarters. and she is well first I think crucially crucially crucially the scene we don't see

Dendra first we see Cyril first Cyril is the one waiting outside so I I fucking lost

I lost my shit I'm like who is he who is he waiting for it please don't tell me he's her please don't tell me he's waiting

for Dudra please please don't do this bro like somebody take this, take his phone, take his keys, take his wallet, take him away from call his mom, get his mom to come pick him up, take him home, and then, yes, Dedra walks, walks, you know, towards the office, towards, and he just walks right into her path. And she's like, no, the way that she looks at him is like, I'm not, that's not, I'm not seeing that guy. Like, why, I'm not saying him.

He's not right in front of me. Is he? Cyril Corne. I know who you are. What are you doing here? I wanted to thank you for the promotion. I had nothing to do with it. Well, my boss seems to think that you did.

We simply gave you a clean bill of health. Have you been waiting out here? Yes. I'd never lie to you. I needed to find you. and it's not that easy to thank you for what you did and what you're doing. And to follow on and try to follow on the conversation we had last month. That wasn't a conversation you were brought in for questioning.

Are you stalking me? I know you work here and I come sometimes to see if we'll see you. I am an ISB supervisor. Do you have any idea how much trouble you're in right now? I thought I had ruined my life. I thought I was done. After meeting you and discovering you understood how dangerous Cassie Nandor was, and just being in your presence, I...

I realized that life was worth living, I realized that if nothing else, there was justice and beauty in the galaxy, and if it just kept going, perhaps my deranged belief that there was something better, faded for me in the future was a dream, worth clinging to. I could have you arrested, you're aware of that. I want what you want. I sense it I know it you're out of your mind

I have already given you a second chance you come near me again you pursue any of this and I swear I'll have you in a cage on the outer rim so the thing that the audio can't do justice to is the set of expressions

that plays across her face this is such an amazing like the combination of like bafflement and then confusion is like the layers of delusion there right where he's like

after the conversation we had last month and she like that was an interrogation and like the realization of like hey is this guy is this guy nuts

like is this guy like fully um am I in danger yeah and the layers and he confirms that as he just keeps going

and her just like shock at the distortions that he's carrying around and the wild declaration of how she saved his life, made it feel life was worth living, just knowing she was out there. And his eyes. His eyes are just so bloodshot and watery and just... It's wild. When someone says, I could have you arrested.

You know that? And then your response is, I want what you want. Mm-hmm. Just being in your presence, I realize that life is worth living. I realize that if nothing else, there was just this. When he said beauty, I was like, I'm, I got to go. I was like, okay, surely, surely, surely. This is not, this is just like, we are, we both are, let's do this to get.

Like, I want, I want to work with you. I want to be a fascist like you. I want to work in the ISB. This is what I'm built for. Like you think, oh, okay, no, no, no. He's idolizing and romanticizing the job, right? It's about the job. And then that beauty line drops.

And it's like, it's not about the job. It's not about the job. He trimmed his hair. He groomed himself. Yep. He got, he, he, he went back to the tailors for another round to keep things up to shape. Like he's on that Jordan Peterson routine He started reading you know what I mean

Like he's decided he's gonna like get his life together He's gonna be a man I could never be an alpha But maybe a sigma Maybe I could be a sigma Oh the way he grabs her That's the other thing The audio does not do justice right

The body language Yeah so then then as he's going like down The spiral of beauty and everything He says This is worth pointing out because he says, if I had just kept going, perhaps my deranged belief that something was faded for me, she moves away at that point and he grabs her wrist.

But it's fucked up. In the future was worth, was a dream worth clinging to while he is grabbing her arm. Yeah, and then, and then, and then I could have you arrested. And he's just like, I want what you want. I sense it. I know it.

And I'm just like, Oh God And I just love that she is just completely Unrelenting here Like fuck off She's just But you know he's let me hear

What he wanted to hear right Which is the beginning of this conversation She says that she didn't give him the promotion At the end she says I already gave you a second chance And that's all he's going to take away He's like oh she did She gave me the second chance

Well there's also smaller things because, like, he introduces himself to be, like, I'm serial, and she's like, I know who you are. And, like, him, the thought of him being, like, she recognized me. She should forget about me that, like, lets him go to, like, Z in this conversation is horrible. Just thinking about it from her, his perspective of her being, like, I could have you arrested and him being like, yes, my babe would put people in jail. Please tell me that.

But she didn't put me in. You're right. You could put me in jail, but you didn't put me in jail. So you must be saying. Because you recognize that I'm going above and beyond, just like you would. It's, it's, it's, I, I, I am so glad to have the mom dynamic alongside, like to have Eddie and Cyril. And then this, it makes this so much more informed. It's not just that he's a fucking stalker weirdo.

is that he has been so you see where it comes from you see that he has been so demolished by his own mother for his whole life just continuously degraded for his entire existence um never got her approval has not gotten any approval whatsoever from day from daydra but what he has gotten is a promotion and that is like all the fuel he needed like that That was the reward for his, you know, his actions, his service to the empire. What does she say to him as she's walking out? We will remember your service to the empire. And like, and then he gets the promotion. Like, in his mind, he's created this whole delusional fantasy of his relationship with Dedra having, of there being a relationship between these two people in general

and like there's the elements of he has in part just because like who he is the way his character has been distorted he has that like lust for power that like deep desire

for him and is like fully just transferred onto the person of Dedra like to him Dedra is the power, the authority the violence, the competence of the empire embodied in a person that he has met and is living the life that he desires

and so it just turns into this like nightmareish cocktail of like psychosexual fantasy 100%. But that also, again, is getting it something really core to the appeal of fascism for a lot of its adherence, right? That like it's

it doesn't always coherent, right? Like, it's not going to be, it's not always going to be the dude and the Mandalorian giving the speech, but like, here's the underpinnings of, like, what the empire does and how we see ourselves and what it represents. It's also just a gut level, like, desire for power and a need to actualize and a shortcut to feeling like you've done that. There is something, like, libidinal happening. There was, like, the energy, like you said, the psychosexual energy at play in this that I've never seen in Star Wars, obviously. No, which is not to say you can't do...

Palpatine. Okay, well, Palpatine. You're right. Palpatine getting, like, extremely excited about going to fight at the end of episode six, or season six of Clone Wars, season five of Clone Wars, wherever we are. Oh, season five of Clone Wars. Definitely has that same degree. But beyond that, there is...

This is not a space that we've seen Star Wars play in. I don't know that it's a space that a lot of pop cultural genre... genre stuff in 2022 has played in regularly, which is like the soft way of saying the thing of like Marvel movies don't have any sex in them. Like you know, like I think that's a very, you know, trite thing maybe to complain to make at this point. But in terms of what energies are being brought to bear inside of those franchises, it is not the terrible, awkward, nuanced energy of Cyril Karn being demolished and belittled by his mother and then three, scenes later being the absolute creepiest person in the world who is trying to use his physical

presence to overpower and insert himself into this woman's life this woman who literally the immediate proceeding shot to this scene is seeing bix absolutely ruined like it's we're going to follow up on bix and she is sitting on the fucking ground unable to do anything hair in shambles face in shambles from having been tortured so like every actor involved you know not bicks but all of the other actors involved are terrible, and there's also this intense energy that makes it hard to fully comprehend every actor's position in the process, right?

Which, again, is what I think is working so well for me about the show, and it's like the great defense of including characters like Dedra and Karn, is that, like, they're not, this is not, they're not really cool fascist action figures that we're spending a lot of time with. there are characters who are being treated with like a great deal of psychological complexity and whose roles in everything remain really important to understand

and not just like you've made a really cool bad guy you know the so the last thing I'll say is like I think I do suspect that yeah there are going people who come away from this being like but was there a little like the serial blow up but like is there maybe like a little like spark of energy there And I think part of it, like this put me in mind, honestly, and I cited it, the Darcy thing, but specifically the Kieranitly McFadian, McFadden version of that. Because in that scene where he professes is a lot, that's the one where they've got the rain pouring down, they're the fucking folly and all that. The thing that I've always felt is sort of blown in that scene is that, ooh, it's just so hot. Like, you, like, they think about, like, maybe we should kiss.

like we should kiss like they should and you're saying they're like kiss kiss kiss and the thing is at that point in the story there's no reason they should lizzie hates him she does dislike him she despises him there's nothing redeeming about him at all and the but the movie kind of fumbles it because like the way kira nightly plays the scene the way it's all shot like all that energy and and ultimately it's too sexy it is it is way too sexy and they read like they're resisting the urge for it to be sexy and they can't help themselves and that's not I love to watch it but it's not it's not it's not I it you know

it's not the best representation of their relationship at that point but also it's like a perfect example of like the way like a lot of movies that like play with romantic themes and like have romances as part of the like conflict that sets up the eventual resolution

there's like oh they don't like each other's there's dislike there's there's conflict and strife and so I think like a lot of folks are really conditioned to seeing expressions like that where like you know you see you see an actor sort of baffled put off angry

like curious and people are like ah intrigue romantic attraction and like yes because in movies those those are often cues that like yes these two attractive people will eventually make out and the action figures you make them kiss

but Kyle Ren and fucking Ray like we gotta say it we got to say it we got to say it Like, Kylo Wren was out there torturing Ray, and then he's, his ass is Ben Solo by the end of it. But the, but I think the way, but Deader's actual scene, when I look at it, what I see is genuine, like, I don't know where this is going. A hundred percent. This guy's scaring me a little bit. Oh, I did not see where this is going at all.

I need to get out of this conversation right now. A hundred percent. And I think there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of, like, romantic movies that have gotten that, like, crossed up for people. people, and they're like, ooh, like, this is kind of signaling. There's, there's a little spark here. Uh, no, I think, I think the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the flurry of motions we see playing across Dedra in the scene is a pretty decent representation of, like, a person realizing that they are, that they have been sought out by someone who was, like, at the very least, badly diluted, and at worst,

posing an unknown level of danger. Yes. I still think this scene is going to launch a thousand fanfix, though. A hundred percent. Like, there is something happening in the imaginary that is, you know, this is not an attack on those fan fix, is what I would say, right? Like, I think that the, there was a lot of space for people to tell stories about truly toxic people and really bad relationships that explore that tension. And again, that's not me saying, and this is what a good relationship looks like.

This is me saying, that's what a really terrible relationship looks like, and lots of people cannot fucking wait to write that really terrible relationship springing from these encounters, you know? Yeah. A lot of people quite knowingly know that, like, hey, these are bad tropes. God help me, I love them.

Right, 100%. That's the thing. Like, yeah, absolutely. And it's funny to see a show that gets that, that is not the Sopranos, right? You know, or like madmen. Like, there's a, there's blaster pistols

in this show, you know? There's probably no aliens in this particular episode. Or there must be aliens, and they go to the Senate briefly, right? There's probably an alien in the background somewhere. Somewhere. So the other thing is, we see how Unsettled Deadra is because she, like,

she doesn't know what to do with it. She gets back to her office, and she's kind of odd of it as here tells her that they've found a rebel pilot. And she kind of forgets to do the thing, which, I don't know. I'm like, Dedra, you should call the police on that, man. You're the ISB. I would just skip the part to where he shipped out to the outer rim, but she's,

she wants nothing to do with it anymore. She moves on from it, and also there's a new, there's a new plot in the works, which is that, uh, yeah, they found a, they caught a member of Anton Krieger's group, uh, which is the group that Saw Guerr were supposed to provide air support, uh, for on the Spell House, uh, mission, and Saw was like Krieger's an idiot and I'm not going to work with him and it appears that

Krieger's plot has crashed on takeoff that the pilot he had like they say he kind of botched the recognition signals and then tried to run for it they caught him immediately they interrogated the entire thing they interrogated the pilot

they've got the entire plot against Spellhouse sort of sussed out and once again like just like on ferrics dead run in the ISB have also now posted up and set a trap at spellhouse and they're going to kill the pilot have him recovered

so that the so the Krieger's group thinks that the mission is still on but to me my reading on it was yep this is exactly what Saul was worried about that this group was not buttoned up I did have the thought though is Creaker compromised because he's trying to like find replacements for what

I was supposed to bring to the table? I don't. Yeah. I thought they got him because they were able to trace one of the Bix sales to the ship and like that's just how fast things are moving in the ISP right now that they like

already got the information like they got the list of of things that Bix sold and then from that they were able to find one of the things that were sold and it was in the ship and that's they were like Like, we got this guy. It was definitely an item stolen. I don't know if it went through Bix or not, but it was definitely one of the items

stole. It was an item stolen from a place the year before. Yeah, I do think I had floated the idea like, oh, is this what he needed air support for was like to escort somebody closer to here, but I don't think so. I think this is, I don't think so. And if it was, then not having it, Saul never agreed to give this dude anything. So his plan should not have been built around Saw and Saul's X-Wra. They're not even in this.

same movement. Like they're there they're like saw fundamentally sees himself as like not a, a colleague or a comrade to what Krieger is trying to do. Yeah, I much more read this as an example of him saying that Krieger, you know, was running a ship bat, you know, was what he calls him an ox, right? And it's like, yeah, you didn't train your people how to use the stuff. The dude flashed the symbol on and turned it off real quick and forgot how to do it.

I played the scene back. Yeah. It's not that they were, they'd cut into, like, the equipment that DEDRA, that Bix had sold. It literally is, this guy was at a customs check. He flashes, like, the wrong ID. And, like, if, I guess it flickers on the display, then the guy just panics and runs. And runs. And that's how they got him.

They do say that it was, the ID was one of the things that was stolen from a year before, or from Lojus, Loja, or something like that. So I just don't know if that happened to have also moved through Bix or, if one of the many basking devices that has been stolen, you know, in the last year. So, I don't know. But, yeah, like, again, vindication for Saw. And I think further evidence, like, was Saw positioned as kind of a villain

or kind of a short-sided, like, obstinate bastard in the last one? I don't know. He called this one pretty right. I mean, he calls it all right, because we know, I think I said this last time. But, like, the New Republic doesn't fucking stand up. Like, he's,

sees where it's going. Anyway. So, yeah, that's so much for, so much for DEDRA. We will, we will see, we will see where that all goes. What do we think the next step is for Dedra and Karn?

Rob, I do like your theory of Karn makes the connection and then goes to Dejera, and Dedra's like, you're a boy who cried and you've gone too far. I'm putting you in a slammer. I'll just say this. I feel like we come to, we come to, we keep coming back to Carnalot because he's the one like where does he fit in all this he has this this weird energy around him as a complete wild card because every time I think I know like what role he's going to play

in all this something happens to twist it like to twist it away from what I was expecting and so at this point like I still like the idea of they've set him up as you know he has so many hallmarks of what's called like an insider threat which is not necessarily someone who will be turned, like, ideologically, but it's just a vulnerability in the system because there are so many other issues, like, around them that either without meaning to or for reasons of their own, they could be, like, leveraged against their organization. I still kind of like that.

Yeah. But this, this angle of, like, fixation on DEDRA introduces, yeah. He's unpredictable, and he's also, like, he doesn't take what people are saying to him into account at all. he's been told so many times to sit down and shut the fuck up and he will not do that he won't do it he he he he consistent he is so so so deep in the belief that one day someone is going to see the way his work ethic and the way that he's approaching his fucking conspiracy theories and will reward him and will put him on a pedestal and we'll pat him on the head and give him the cold star that he has never gotten um here we go come to me with dream to dream space come to me to wild nonsense you know how it it starts in my previous vision was he overhears luthin one day he's like oh my god

that's luthan he did that instead of like trying to kill luthin or bring him in he confronts him And he's like, you know, at this point, Karn is like in tears already, right? He's like, it's you. Why would you do this? Why do you hate our empire so much? I don't understand why things are falling apart. We're supposed to be dedicated to justice. Why is no one listening to me?

He's like spiraling off. And Luton puts a hand on his shoulder. And it's like, calm down, calm down. It's okay. It's okay. Bring it in. And he hugs him. And he gives him this deep human connection because Luton's a good liar.

He goodwill, he brings him in. to his chest and he holds him and he's like why you know why would you be nice to me like I I hate you you're the you're the enemy and he's like well I'm trying to make the world a better place I'm I'm one of the good guys Cyril you don't understand

and Cyril's like no all the good guys are dead all the clones are dead all the Jedi are dead and he goes not all the Jedi oh bro as long as he's he's stabbing his

stab. He becomes a useful tool for Luton's cheese. And then, and then they get rid of Luton. And Clayah is like, essentially used the old lightsaber we got in the back to trick him. And he's like, yeah, it always works. Oh, God damn. That's really good.

He's not really a Jedi. That's way better than my fan fit. I use my Jedi trick. Uh-huh. I love it. It's not going to happen. Which would, of course, be a, that incredible reference to that

Obi-Wodd show. Oh my god. He's in Goodwill Hunting. I forget that. He's in Goodwill Hunting. Is he? Who, Kellynne Scarsgard? Yeah, he's the mathematician.

That's so funny. That's friends with Robin Williams and is like, I need you to look like take a patient. I've never seen Goodwill Hunting, so. You're good, probably. You're probably good. You can get the just from YouTube

highlights, honestly. I believe you. Yeah. Anyway, what else has happened in this episode? I don't want to leave zero card behind. I want to spend the whole, I could spend this whole fucking episode thinking and talking about. It's just so, it's literally the shortest amount of time spent on,

on, amongst all the stories in this episode. We do it on Mothmo because that's the other place that sex seems to exist in Star Wars. Yeah, let's go. so first of all I'm just curious so we get to minima

delivering a speech to a moribund like sepulchral senate senate floor and I have a question she's giving a speech

first of all she's as usual opposing imperial overreach which by the way what a lousy issue but it does remind me again this was like

in the 2000s like around Patriot Act type stuff you've really heard a formulation that was similar to this I'm not against the authoritarian stuff we're doing I'm just against these government these overreaches it's too much authority they're doing this to regular American people

you know and then yeah we saw a turn around later good law abiding citizens yeah and we saw a turnaround later by like you know Tea Party you know conservatism and such where like the government governing was a government overreach you know things like that like the ability

attacks is an over is an overreach but like it is such a milk toast issue uh that she's she's been a champion for but i have a question what's going on you hear the the the the cat calling from the galleries people are like you know let her speak listen to where she's right you also are people yelling you know shut up you're you're dumb ass but then the lights keep going out on little like senate delegation platform platforms i'm curious what's happening there I was curious about this. So I was just re-watching the scene. So everyone's lights start on.

And then as Mon Mothma is talking, people are, you see them kind of reaching over and turning their lights off. I think it's like an action of, an act of just like removing themselves from the conversation almost. Like, I am not going to participate in this. I, like, the light almost feels like, hi, I'm here and I'm engaging in whatever this discourse is. And then the light off is like, I've, I'm, you know, sitting this one out, basically. And I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's like a third option

in the sense of like, you know, in our Senate not voting, like abstaining from voting. or whatever. I don't know if it's like that, if it's regarded that way as you're just like not taking a side either way or if it's a rejection of what's currently being put forward. And I, I would think I would read it rather in the light, in the latter that it's like a rejection of kind of what's, what's being currently put on the floor. It's also, I, it, I don't completely understand what how the senate how a senate proceeding is structured like is is is mon mothma giving this and everyone you know turns their lights on or off or whatever and then everything resets and somebody else's

bubble comes forward and they have their you know stand on the floor i'm not entirely sure how it works but at the very least it seems like you know mon mothma's making some pretty like rat not rat kind of radical claims she's saying the the emperor is overreaching he we're in danger of of uh ending up in a position where we have complete the inability to challenge authority like we are we are moving very closely very swiftly into this territory of just authoritarianism in not that we're not already there but um you know the way she's framing it like she i was like damn you're painting a fucking target on your back but But I think, you know, I have to wonder if she has that much confidence in her, in her seemingly innocuous presence in the Senate that this won't draw any tension.

If that all the, all the groundwork that she's laid of doing the little charities, of being the annoyance, of being this ineffectual, you know, senator is enough to keep her hidden. to me this felt like a like kind of a big stand but it's all falling on you know people who who don't really care it seems like this is one thing to really dig about this is that you can almost look and they haven't foregrounded this necessarily though obviously it's a major like it's it's it's a through line running through mon's entire story but it's like this race is happening that nobody can talk about yet between like totalitarian consolidation and like active armed resistance and both are happening simultaneously but for like on both sides there

are reasons to continue to pretend that like this breach hasn't fully happened and i think like one of the interesting things here is that manmavah knows even though i think these scenes you can see it hurts her that like the senate is moribend that like nobody nobody cares men mavama knows that these speeches and are ineffective, but that also, like, means that Palpatine will allow them to, like, preserve the illusion of some sort of democratic body within the empire. Of course, in New Hope, the first thing that we hear of it is the sun has been dissolved. But we're in this window where, like, he's leaving the old forms and trappings of the government in place, knowing they're thoroughly defanged, and providing space for certain elites to

say what they want. Go ahead. Be seditious. Go ahead. Be seditious. Go ahead. call me a tyrant. Say we're on a path to empire. It doesn't matter. In fact, the fact that I am letting you say that underscores the ways in which I'm not a tyrant, that you haven't lost your freedoms. But the funny thing as well is by letting this fiction stay in place, Palpatine necessarily allows people the freedom maneuver to begin lining up other pieces for a, like, a war in the shadows, right? And so I think that's one of the cool things running through this is in some ways,

Manama being able to give voice to radical things here serves Palpatine, but the funny part is she knows that too, and that's why she's using this cover to build up a rebel network in the background, but both realize there's going to be a moment of breach, and you just got to time it perfectly as to when you both

pull your respective masks off. To your original question of what's happening, the closest thing I could think of is, I mean, I do think you're right. I think that it's the equivalent of an abstention or a, you know, no vote or whatever,

or just like we're tuning out. The thing that it reminded me of was seeing people at the UN remove their like translation or their interpretation headphones and be like, we're signed off. We're not. I'm not even going to pay you any fucking mind.

I'm done listening to you. Now, I think we suspect most people on the Galactic Senate speak basic. And I don't think there's anything that says that these units have translators built in or anything like that. But it feels, that was the vibe I got. There's specifically a shot of two people turning to each other and like shaking their heads. Like, oh boy, here she goes again from inside of one of these things after the light turns out. And that time you made it feel like your read of like checking out and being like, well, this is a waste of our time. I don't know.

It makes perfect sense. Mm-hmm. And I guess to that point, like the way that she's talking is in these like, like these giant generalizations. Like our first responsibility is to the citizens who have sent us here. Our second vow is to protect the power and independence of this remote. remarkable chamber. These are hallowed halls. Big Padmae energy.

Big Padma, huge Padmae energy. She says, you know, I stand here today to speak with senators who've come with open minds. Those of you who still believe that when we enter this building, we are in a temple. Just like, shut the fuck up. But that's how it's so easy when you're like, when you're adding this. kind of like sanctity to this you know what we are we are servants to our people no we're not we're fucking powerful oligarchs in the galactic senate like no one here is really in service

to their citizens like we are living in the empire at this point we are these people are here in service of themselves in their own best interest so yeah it's like she's saying the thing like of course you have to acknowledge that like okay you're going to acknowledge the citizens you're going to acknowledge you know the precious precious democracy that we have that is all just it's it's all an illusion it's all just everyone there is is no longer willing to to make those like okay so as you know we're all gathered here and we love we love democracy nobody here cares about that stuff anymore. Everyone has moved past that. Everyone is completely mask off

and is participating in the empire with full commitment. I think like I flashed back to the scene with the Quarin in the Quarren senator in Clone Wars who when Padme makes a similar entreaty

to him basically gives her the like who are we kidding? Like who are we kidding about the Senate being a representative body or representing anyone on our home pole? Like, that's a fiction we tell ourselves. And I think, like, you know, here we see that in, like, in some ways, I genuinely do believe that, like, for folks like Manma, that coin took a long time to drop, and they may have been

the last to realize it. But the funny thing now is, I think, when Manmahdom is giving the speeches, they are pitched to make, like, in the ways that she's kind of a stereotype of a Ling liberal, like, she's fully leaning into that, right? It's like, you wouldn't imagine her. Also being someone who's like, and now we need 400,000 credits for the fighter squadron. That's the thing, right? What a smart little addition to this character has been she knows that she seems like she's Hillary Clinton,

but really she's moving money, like you said, to fighter jets to fight the empire, you know? another small thing tied to this um i just lose it i may have just oh also it's so funny natalie i did this i hadn't thought about this you know she says just you know those of us who still think of this place as a temple and it reminds me of our conversation about secularity and the empire the lack of for people who didn't listen to the q and a someone wrote in about the lack of religion in the empire to ask us about that. And we had a long conversation about how the empire is not like the American empire because it does not have like Christian values or any other sort of religious values

all through it. It's instead like, you know, any sort of a major power that takes secularity and like super hyper seriously has eradicated religion and is, you know, at best, as they say, uh, during the PORD stuff, uh, when that first gets brought up, they are tolerant of certain religious practices and that is, you know, I'd say something that's on probation, you know, that's something that could fall apart at any given time. So it's very interesting to have Mon Mothma appeal to that sense of holiness and sanctity of this space. We're trying to reintroduce the religious, trying to reintroduce this sense of, you know, the mystical

or the faithful or the aura of this place is real. It's a real important place. It has a history. It has like some sort of larger than life grandeur that we're supposed to give it. No one cares. The moment's past. It's a building. And I will say though, I think we still think of this place as a temple.

Like, there's only one temple on Coruscant. There's only one temple on Corrassant. I mean, that's not true. There's probably other temples on Corrassant. But like there's only one that is the level of, of like, it's like St. Peter's, Basilica, is across the street. Nobody's allowed to talk about it. And so it's like she just drops in.

It's a clever rhetorical move to sort of walk up to that line. What is happening with the Jedi Temple in this time period? No idea. Who know? Is it just like roped off and it's like... It's so much space though, right? It's so big. You would imagine that it wouldn't necessarily.

be turned into like um the kids field trip museum where no because they're burying all memory of the Jedi yeah like it's too soon she's got to be prancing and capering through there like on the regular is just a big part of it uh just like

having little giggle fits uh at like what he's pulled off he just hangs out there he takes his lunches there he just like he's just fiving in the temple but I suspect it's sealed I suspect it's like a crypt it has to be like

repurpose though right Austin please what is that what is that face Austin's not open Austin's face is split open Austin is pogging in shock

one year after the end of the war in the fall of the Jedi order the Galactic Empire had refitted the ruined Jedi temple into the imperial palace the palace was the official residence of Darth Sidius the Dark Lord of the Sith, publicly known as the Galactic Emperor Sheep Palpatine, all that remained of the

original temple was its quincunks of skyscraping spires, which crowned an amalgam of blockish edifices with sloping facades. The temple precinct renamed the Palace Court, housed a courtyard landing field that was large enough to accommodate Star Destroyers or the victory inventor classes from that courtyard, the palace's interior, et cetera, et cetera. Wow. So Palpatine's in there. He literally just vibes there.

Yep. He's taking a shit in the Jedi Temple. Yep. And Naps. You do not want to open up the Jedi Council Chambers. You need to understand that I was on the legends page for Jedi Temple. And I was like, huh, click on Canada. I was going to see what the canon says.

I went to click on Canon that changed it from Jedi Temple to Imperial Palace. And I was like, excuse me? Wow. That's fucked up. It's fucked up. that only year I mean Inductionation is one thing

But for him to be able to go a year For being like You know those guys tried to kill me We have to exterminate them To be like I'm just going to move in There was no pushback on that Wild

And So So Mon Mothma leaves the Senate And she gets in her car And we get this gorgeous shot of her looking I love seeing her I look out the window

and looks just so sad so good she's so disappointed with the world like you can see the reason why she has like come had this come to

of I need to be a part of something greater is because of how much she's lost faith in something you can tell she really believed in before she really believed in democracy. She really believed in what it meant to be a senator. When she talks

about those vows in that temple, those were things that she believed. And you just, it seems like it's just, it consists, every time it consistently breaks her heart. And it, I would assume, is fueling her, fueling her motivation to keep being a fucking, based rebel god but not as based as her cousin uh val who's sort of popped up and boy did a whole thing a bunch of things snap into focus when we discover her

hanging out presenting lito with a fancy dress and maybe a little racy for the things that uh mon will actually buy her daughter uh we get further just a the ongoing skirmish uh domestic skirmish well you have to see if your father will let you that oh uh father lets me do what i want it's like great thank you lita helpful as always uh but we get the we get a little exchange in an undertone between mon and val where she says he's he's got us spinning meaning luthan i assume and uh val responds you took a vow and i'm like what

what the vow what vow what vow i want to know the vow who is in charge here and vow to what what the fucking rebellion it's got it's just it's the rebellion of course but I want to know what their vow is I want to know what they say I want to know well we're going to have to get Andrew making it right Andrew's going to have to take the vow at the end of the season yeah he won't

the thing for me that dominates this entire scene the thing that I could not get over is Val quoting Sinta to Mon Mothma losing my fucking mind Allie, who are you? I just, it's like

I'm sure, ideology can come from anywhere and if you need to come exactly from your girlfriend's mouth because you can't think it through it there. Go ahead. Do you think she believes it or do you think she's playing tough?

So she says that she says the empire doesn't rest in Mon, the rebellion comes first, we take what's left. I can't even say the words. She says it with her whole chest too. She has to because that's what she's telling herself at night.

well I think it's like I think for part of her it's like oh this is the thing that you say to people who flounder right like I you know I found meaning in these words and I think that my dear cousin will as well but also like it's so funny

I was cackling a load of my apartment listening to her say this well sometimes I feel like you see you see in the way that that uh

Sinta was like, I am a mirror and I'm showing you what you need to see. Vell seeing, it's the same moment. Like, Mon Mothema's stepping towards Vell as if to embrace her, she's like, I don't know when you'd, the next time you'd be here, it's been six months since they've seen each other. Vell just did Aldani. Like, I don't know how much Mon Mothma knows about what, I assume nothing. She knows that Vell's involved, but not to what degree. But she walks towards her as if to like embrace her.

And that's when Vell is like the empire doesn't rest. And sorry, I'm looking for the quote. It's that it's the rebellion comes first. The empire doesn't rest, Mon, the rebellion comes first. And I think that, you know, she, she's seeing the reflection she's seeing herself in mon in mon now she's seeing her reaching for cinta in the same way that mon is reaching for vell and it's a reminder like it it snaps her in in line of okay i need to be a leader here like it's very clear that vel brought mon in

like bell it feels like bell left the family first and then sure i can see somehow somehow found the safety in being able to trust Mon and bring Mon herself in. But she's so stone cold here. But their hug before Val leaves is like, you know, I think they do truly love each other and Mon. I'm glad that I was so scared of this encounter because you don't really know. in the first few moments if Mon knows that

at first I was like do they both not know that the other one is in this like in the way that they're in this like does Vell not know that Mon is is funding Aldani and that you know but obviously they do they do but um sort of

but there's limits to how much they do know because you can't not ever people can only compromise each other up to a point. I also do love just the sense that with everyone that we've seen, Mon has to maintain a very careful mask, and

this is the first time that it's felt like there's an actual friend. Like, an actual, honestly got friendship that's kind of like obviously the context makes it complicated. It's not totally untainted by these politics, but she is so visibly delighted at

the way Val is taking pot shots at Perrin across the table. And skirmishing with him in ways that he's too dense to notice that she's sharpshooting him. You know, where he tries to get her with the Yolito widower at your age, you know, like spinster joke. And just the acid, yeah, all the good ones are taken. And Mon's like just beaming at her across the table. Well, as much as she can because she's very impassive. But you know what I mean?

It's just like she's glowing at that. Like, yeah, fuck this guy. Yeah. It's great. It's also just so funny that, you know, I know they're cousins, but there's a way, oh, it's just like, Val is, um, latest cool gay aunt, you know what I mean, who's come over and, like, kicks back. And Parent has no fucking idea. Parent has no fucking idea. You kidding?

He is no clue. Well, it, it makes, it makes Vell even more, like, it makes things even more compelling. Vell, you know, looks like she could be anywhere from her 20s to 30s. It's kind of unclear how old she is. But in the context of she comes from a culture that marries people off at around the ages of 14 or 15. She clearly comes from a well-to-do family. Perrin's grilling her being like the only thing you're going to go, you know, be able to get when you go back to Chandrilla is a widower. like that's the last of what you'll get like the fact that there's this this expectation of

of you know upholding tradition and in these very uh specific specific ways um and and and mon mothma and val are just kind of like looking at each other like this guy doesn't fucking know i'm gay like and it's just like there's like this inside joke the table that it feels like mon's clued in on I have to... Oh, yeah. That's the vibe. It's the vibe that Mon knows, but perhaps, like, isn't up for... Like, isn't beyond them, maybe as known? Well, also, just Leda now feels plucky enough with Vell there to just be like, oh, yeah, there's so many Chandralin's running around here now, including Mom's boyfriend, Tay.

Uh, and, and so we just get it out there and parents like, old boyfriend, like trying to clarify, I wasn't actually saying you're cheating, uh-huh, uh, but just the fact that, like, Leda badly wants some clarity on what's happening in this situation. It is hoping by doing it that sort of like, with, with Vell there for cover, she can sort of like, float this like, hey, what's going on in this family? Uh, and no, no answers before coming to you later. Because actually Vell has questions too, like what it actually is, you know, what it actually is going on there. And, you know, I think Mon gives the honest answer, which is that is a complication she does not need. There's enough going on right now. But she asked Vell, hey, you've got to play the rich girl part for a while. You can't just stay disappeared because it will be noticed.

So we, and we get beautiful photography in this episode. episode, like, the way she is framed by the two sets of doors as the door slides shut behind Val, and she's sort of, again, like, just hermetically sealed within this frame, you know, in her, you know, sleek, cold apartment. It's great stuff. And, you know, things are not going well there, because when, you know, the next scene we get with Mon is, you know, You know, her money, her money man showing up and being like, well, we actually, before he could even take over the books, major accounting errors were made. And now there's a huge payment that he can't cover up.

And as he puts it, it is only a matter of time before a cursory audit will catch the fact that there's this like missing amount of money. And I thought this was going to, she was going to have to go to Luton for a bag of that she can just like put in to at least replace the funds and make it look like you know, just put a withdrawal on a deposit. But no, that won't

cut it. Instead, it's going to have to be a loan from what sounds like a chandelion mobster. Which I didn't know they have. There's mobsters everywhere. You know. The planet, there's a mobster on it.

Yeah. But I'm excited because it's not like, oh, we need a hut. Like, you know what I mean? It's so cool to be like, no, there's little godfather dudes everywhere. I'm so curious to see what we get here. I'm so curious. Davo?

Davo, Davo, maybe. I forget. There's a fucked up guy approaching. I can't wait for him to get here. I want him to be an alien. She's so upset. She's clenching her pearls at the thought of interacting with this person. Of being like, oh, I thought that I could build a rebellion but not have to talk to.

Some weird guy. How could you suggest this of me? Oh, a weird guy showed up. Von Boather is the opposite of us in that she can't stand little freaks. What are all the little freaks? More little freaks. It's true. I am, yeah, I mean, I'm just dying of curiosity because she does not,

it seems pretty clear that, I think you read on it is right, Austin. It does not seem like the play for this guy is, I want to extort my mouth or anything like that. It is a play for social respectability. And it's funny that it does feel

like the thing the bugs are here is that her aristocratic boundaries are about to be violated. That this is like I can help raise funds for the rebellion.

I can finance my art dealer's private war on the empire but having this man in my home at my salon are you surely you just.

I mean I think part of that is a practical concern, which is like she is worried about how people will see her when she's hanging out with criminals. And the thing that Tay says is like, yeah, they'll think they're, that you're just like them, like a hypocrite who wants to make money. That's all anybody is. Like every other senator out here. Exactly. This is actually probably going to be good for your camouflage. Yeah. We'll see. Shall we go to prison? I suppose it's all that's left.

Yeah, let's go. So last we saw, you know, Andor had fallen into a good rhythm with his crew. They were like a well-oil machine working their table. Here, we see now some time has passed, and the first thing we notice is that Ulaf, the old man, as part of their crew, this broke my heart. He looks so tired throughout the time.

this scene he looks like it's brutal it looks like an old cartoon rat he really does just like his whole face is kind of falling and his hands are shaking and what's touching is everyone tries to protect him everyone is covering for him in this scene and i've like i wasn't sure like where are we going to end up with keeno like throughout this throughout the last episode this one i wasn't sure but i started to get a good feeling because keeno comes over and he could he he sorts out of me he susses out immediately that like Ulav isn't doing well and instead he's like

hey how many days you got left all right man you're almost done 41 days huh 41 more shifts huh he's but he's like trying to keep him you know head up and like he can see that they're covering

for him and he's like yeah good job like we'll continue we'll work on we'll work on covering for whatever's going on with uh with with with with olaf

In the meantime, Andor is painstakingly cutting into a utility line in the John using a makeshift exacto knife. Boy, escape from prison sucks. Yeah. I was like, all right, we're in it. Like, Andor has some schemes rolling. Anders found his thing, right? Also interesting that he's working with someone who was not part of his, like,

table as part of this discussing, oh, is the plan to get out. right he goes over when he comes out of the bathroom and goes on program which is when he puts you to put your hands up to your head and like you know take a stance uh they're they're eye how many guards come in when they drop off a new person how many of them come down the elevator are they wearing the special shoes or not how many weapons do they have again full on like analysis mode they're gonna make sense of what everything they're seeing is um and you know um that's that's it turns out to be extremely important because do you think get such little information that they need to

squeeze as much of it as they can from every opportunity, you know? Also, oh, go ahead. No, and it is a sign. Like, the fact that he's working with someone at another table, like, you know, the first time we see that we understand how the prison works, it's all keeping everyone isolated. And we

can see now that, like, Andor's done his thing and he has created a social network within the room and is able to, and like, Kino has hasn't stopped it, that he's able to just, like, go over plot with this guy, and, like, everyone just kind of, like, lets that be.

The, but also, like, it is so the amount of detective work they're still having to do. When they realize the guy getting zapped is holding on to the bar and the guard, there's no, there's no energy being transferred through

like the guy getting zapped through the grid and the realization that, like, okay, they're learning the limits of that, of that electrified floor. effectively um all of the like little in the in you know the past few episodes where where we've seen and or's little looks little like sort of moments of observation they're like increased tenfold now like there's tons of these little glances little looks looking over here

looking over there um you know different inmates looking at each other communicating with their eyes and then yeah it all comes to this moment with the elevator where and or is like right now while it's going up they're talking as the elevator is coming down um you know as it's going back up this is when we strike this is and it's as they're talking time is moving and then the moment is gone like they they like you you hesitate even for a second and the moment is gone and then you move on like this is the thing that I find so um heartening about this watching and or in the prison is that his spirit is not broken.

Like he is so dedicated to finding his escape. And the amount of like camaraderie between the prisoners is also inspiring. And like you envision a world in which I was so terrified of Ulav falling apart because I just I could see him as the scapegoat for like a year's life. slowing us down and we're never going to get out of here because of you or we're all going to suffer because of you and instead like the collective is stronger because the collective like leans on each other and and is like the camaraderie is real um and i mean i think that's like best exemplified by the end of this episode and in kino's arc which was was a constant threat

to this whole system, right? Because then you have the prisoner turned prison guard. And that, like, Kino's still looking out for his fellow inmates. Like, the way that he talks to Ooloff and saying, oh, you know, 40 days out, you're the shortest of the shore. You're almost out of here. Like, there's, like, such a belief in the freedom to come and also that if we work together and we keep each other's heads cool and we just like put our heads down and we and we

do our hundreds or thousands of shifts we will get to the end of this i didn't even think like i was still on i didn't know if i could trust right i didn't trust him at that point i read his like only 41 days left buddy as like the most like you manage you're real you know like stick it out Well, because, like, the next scene with him is the scene of him being, like, I'm not going to talk to you about how many guards there are and, or I'm not going to tell you, they are going to listen to us, they are going to. The thing, he could have reacted to that in, like, a very threatening way. Like, if you don't, like, you know what I mean?

Totally, but I think that he was very much, for me reading him all episode, I was like, he is on the wrong side of solidarity. He is not, you're right. He's not with the Pinkertons bust in these. I mean, push come to shove. He's going to be happy to. put someone in the fucking box. He sends people to the box every day, right?

And, like, we can say that that's what his role is. And if he doesn't do what he gets sent to the box instead, the box is where the lowest ranking team goes to go get zapped, right? And I think you're, you're, I couldn't trust that from him because of what his role is. Because the manager or the, the guard who wants to, like, make things just go easy, is also going to take that affect and be that guy who is like, just 41 days left, buddy, just 400 days left, buddy. and he only has a few hundred days left in his mind.

So I'm not saying it's not genuine, but I don't trust kind words from prison guards. No, but I think it is, it's hard to read at that moment, but obviously we're going to see where he comes down. Right. But I think, like, just one other thing here, to the heartening aspect of seeing Andorra in his element,

the thing it broke my heart is when Ulaf has done, disoriented after the guards go back and he has that moment where he's like what's the score where like what's the situation they tell him like what it is but then like we just we just had this conversation i know and everyone shoots that look across where they're like where everyone realizes it's not like a member of the family has just like there's now evidence like there's a real like sickness here like this is not a good sign and the it's a great performance that flash of anger from olaf as he realizes he like

He knows something slipped. He knows he missed something. He knows, like, everyone was keeping something from him. And to a degree, like, there's a bit of, like, violation of his independence. You know, he still wants to be able to help and, like, carry his weight. And that anger and that mix of confusion, it, like, gut it in that, and that look Andor gives him. That's sort of considering, but also, like, really sympathetic look that, like, Andor has another elderly parent. Yeah, you have to imagine that Andor, like, sees.

Marva in Ulaf. Oh, yeah. You know. Ulaf is the type of confusion that he exhibits and that anger is very um,

uh, uh, is very exemplary of somebody, uh, going through the first stages of dementia. Um, that type of anger at the confusion is very, very typical.

Um, with that type of, you know, experience. So I think Andor is somebody that takes care of his own and takes care of people. He's selfish in the way that he moves in and out of people's lives. But when push comes to shove, like, he will, you know, he takes care of those that he loves. I think you even say that he, like, some of his selfishness,

comes from an idea that over the long haul, like he tried to do, he was able to come back and make this all right. And you know what? I'll come back and pay my debts. All this was actually for you. In the end, like, I wanted to do right by you. Like, I couldn't, but not the way you thought.

I needed to, like, take a bigger swing. The next scene we get, like, it is, it's only in retrospect you realize how chilling it is. But it's the scene where they're in the tunnel again at the shift change. And the dudes who do the sign language of each other, like, it gets frantic, and there's just a, it's, it's a great scene because the whole scene just feels like an extended panic attack. Like, it's not clear what is the threat. There's a palpable sense of, like, danger and alarm. And we get that, um, we, we get that, like, long pause as the power cuts. And they're just plunged into darkness.

Everyone's like, what was that? And people are saying there's something really wrong on two. And Keno, and this is, again, like first time that I'd seen that, how much does Kino know versus how much is being kept from Keno? When he, like, breaks in, he sees their spiraling over it, and he rants at them, you haven't got a clue what they're saying. It takes a week for one word to get all the way up here. And you're all panicking about something that's on the other side of the building.

how many hands does it take for one word to get through up here and then they're told to be on program but circus is great like the it's not like in that is not just a you're all fools for even worrying about this but also I do pick up this vibe of like he's thought a lot about the potential for like things like the sign language

and he's come to inclusion that there's nothing here it's just too cumbersome it doesn't work for what you want to do. Yeah, my thought on who he is and what his position is that he's been here for five years, 10 years. He's nearing the end of his time and has probably only recently been made guard slash manager, right? I bet he probably did many, many years in the role that Andors in and they got moved into this role close to his final days as a way of being like, all right, we're going to give you the little boost now, keep you on, keep you on program. You know? Yeah. And like, like I've been there for a while, he's had all these thoughts

these guys have. He's thought about all the ways to escape. He's thought about all the ways we can get information through. He's thought about stepping on the live floor. Like, he's done it all. And now there's 200 days left. And so when Andor's trying to like, hey, just like, with those 10 years you've done in this place, before you go, at least tell me what you know. and he will just do nothing to jeopardize that. And he's furious at Melshi. Every time Melchie makes one of his dark predictions about like you know nobody's getting out of him.

Malshie is the true doomer of Andor. But also the correct, the fucking truther. Yep, yep. Truther. Yep. Dude's right. Dumered but truther. You imagine how insufferable Malshys going to be

for the rest of forever? Like having been vindicated. Yeah. and you're right, you're right. You know, so we get the, you know, the next shift we get. We really see how far, like, how rapidly Ulaf is declining. He can barely stand. And that's where it became clear to me, like sort of where Kino came down.

Like, when they are literally holding him up so we can stay on program, because the implication sure seems like if he couldn't stay up, they would just drag him over to the electrocution spot and just, just hit him. Yeah, that'd be it. Um, and he just, like, pointedly looks the other way and, like,

helps them conceal the fact that, like, they're bodily holding Ulav on his feet, um, during, during the end of shift. Uh, and then they, they,

they, they, they're just going to euthanize. Like, there's no way that, like, this is not a facility that's going to provide care. Uh,

that's not quite what I expect it. I didn't, I didn't expect that the, the medics themselves would be prisoners. and that they might at least the guy does come to check to see how Ulav is doing and it's just it's moot

but it's also the way he phrases some of his but I don't think the I don't think the I don't think Andor or Kino thought that they weren't going to take care weren't going to try and help Uloph like Kino is so so adamant

he only has 40 days left just please give him something that can get he's so close to being out of here like just, you know, give him the thing that you have that will get him through this. If Kina, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, able-bodied person who sprained of, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, an ankle or I don't know, like, had some other type of injury. You would imagine, maybe there is a world in which, um, you know, they put the effort towards, towards helping him but the thing that and or and or says and says earlier is we are oh we are cheaper than droids no one's listening to us nobody cares about us like the whole we kind of

glazed over this exchange between um kino and and or when and or is like at like repeatedly asking him um you know how many guards are there on the floor how many guards are on the floor how many guards are on the floor. How many guards are they're on the floor? Kino won't answer him. And he's like, do you actually think they're listening to us? They're not listening to us. All they need to do is turn on the death floor twice a day. And that's all they need to do to keep us in control. We do not pose a threat to them. We are expendable. We are bodies. We're cheaper than droids and we're easier to replace. Which is the whole thing about this entire theory of labor that we're seeing on display, right? Is that like, again, they don't need to put their own managers in charge.

They are going to let themselves manage. And if they fucking die or decide to screw up, they'll kill them and replace them because it's labor is cheap. We know that they could just ship in a bunch of new people more every day now that the laws have changed, right? I think it's so interesting to hear them say cheaper than droids because of our longstanding conversations around droids as slaves in this galaxy and like what that looks like and also because it puts it in conversation with real conversations around automation and mechanization you know there are lots of things that people think are made by machines that are actually made by people because people are cheaper than machines right um people think about things like you know clothing uh being just like oh yeah a big a big assembly

line somewhere just with robots makes that right no robot no robot no electronics anything you've ever seen in a fast fashion store that is like knit or crocheted that is done by a person like crocheting specifically which is like a very big like

sorry to get on a anti-fast fashion rant really quick but like crocheting specifically cannot be like done by machines certain types of knit cannot be done machines and it's a huge trend right now in in fast fashion and hm zara all of those stores are are filled to the brim with like crochet and that is is cannot be done by machines it is all people yeah and again those people are not being paid a fair wage right um absolutely not it is one of the most labor intensive like types of

of yeah now i'm going to do the one thing of dunking on star wars fans for one second i'm to let myself do this once, which is the number one thing I kept seeing. I had, I probably saw this a dozen times, six or seven or eight on my timeline and then another set just like digging into comment threads and shit that I shouldn't be doing with my time. People saying how cool it would be if the reveal was they're not making anything. They're making widgets on floor two and then they're sending them to floor three and they're being deconstructed. And it's just, I get how you get there. There's an existential. horror there. There's something like Kafka-esque about like, oh, the horrors of bureaucracy and the waste and like, oh, it's just torturous to people. But that's not what the... Jerry Gilliam's and, right, exactly. And it's like, frankly, it's why I got kind of sick of Gilliam's shit, like, because we live in a world where people are actually exploited and not just like metaphorically exploited. It's not just like crazy, huh? Right. And it might be inefficient. It might be people chasing efficiency that actually produce more inefficiency.

It might be convoluted, but the idea that the empire is so desperate to control these people and keep them, you know, calm that they're going to have them do Lego kits and then send the Lego kits down three floors to get unmade is nonsense. The empire has an opportunity for free labor. They're going to fucking take it there in empire. So, sorry, I also skipped over something really important, which is the morning they're heading to the shift where Ulav collapses. Yes, yes.

Crucially. This is where now the other shift that is being relieved, there's rumor going up and down the line as the two shifts past each other. Yes. That an entire floor was wiped out last night. And Kino doesn't want to hear it. He's like, I need to hear it. Like, where Zinska?

Zinska's his counterpart for the other shift. And Zinska just comes up, confirms it, and says, I heard they were making trouble. And Malchimidly, they set them all free. and that's what Kino loses his shit and this is the power has to like put him fucking back together and that's where the power relationship completely flips

it's Andor now who's like hey dude we got to keep it together and like from that moment on Andor is like shock calling the room now like Kino's bought in this is what Andor does it's like this is really bad they're not listening to us

yeah it it what we need to continue making sure they think of us is that we don't know anything that we are as ignorant as they think we are that is the only thing we need to maintain and there is such fear in kinos like his it's it's such a visceral reaction to receiving that information because it's it's it's rage it's fear it's it's incomprehend it's it's like confusion it's so many different things because it's fundamentally shattered the belief that he has that in 200 days

he is going to leave this he's going to walk out he has done his time and he will walk out of this prison and again how many people did he send in the box how many people did he let get stun-sticked how many people has he seen leave yeah totally

that and that and at that point it's like he is recognizing his own complicity and his own collaboration with this group that now he doesn't even like if they kill 200 people or however many people or 50 people per shift or whatever to say 100 people like nothing what's the point and this is what's the point and this is what the medic comes and reveals

to them as he as he confirms that like ooloft's had a stroke olaf's already dying uh and they they can't help him but he makes the comment oloff's lucky uh compared to the rest of us and keanu's like what does that mean and again the guards are not paying attention They don't feel they need to. They just let this conversation unfold. And that's where the doctor lets them in on the secret that somebody who was released was sent back to a floor where they were known. And everybody abruptly realized on the floor that nobody's escaping this prison. And so they electrified the entire floor, which was what caused the power cut in the tunnel the night before.

When we see the power dip like that, that is the moment that, like, 200,000. people have just been like electrocuted or something like across the facility this medic is also kind of a piece of fucking work yeah the vibes are off

an interesting dynamic in the in the he's already like broken by the news of this and you can't tell it's by the news of this but you could tell he's like a week like this and you'll be begging to get out of here like his spirit is broken just as much as he knows is about to be

or like has been breaking you throughout this episode episode. But an interesting dynamic in this is he's a doctor who's also a prisoner. Andor asks him what happened on that floor. And he says to Kino, you have to keep your men in line. And then at the point at which Kino is the person being willing to be like, no, you have to tell me what happened over there is when he's willing to be like, yeah, they killed all of them because of this exact thing. Also, never using Lov's name. That shit was like, I don't want to know his name is what he says How many times has he's done this?

Sure, 100%. I get he's coping. I get it. Yeah. It's not good, but it's it's, it's, it's, he's, he's, it's, it's, it's not good. But the fact that, you know, the, the, the first exchange that I feel like the first signal, the first flag of this is Kino being like, I haven't seen you for a while. And he's like, I haven't fucking gone. I haven't gone anywhere.

Like he. I've been doing this. Yeah. I haven't gone anywhere and I now know that I am never going anywhere. Confirmed for sure. And that, of course, now nobody can ever leave here. There's no way this wasn't, like, even if this was an isolated case where, like, this guy wasn't let out. After something like this has happened, nobody at this facility can ever be allowed to leave.

Mm-hmm. um it's it's it's it's just such a hard scene what watching this i have to i have to ask what what did y'all make of the doctor's entrance like him coming down in the elevator and walking through the other like rooms uh um like in the middle of their shift to come through to um Like, I just thought that sequence was really interesting. It's responding to the earlier sequence, right, about how when they bring new people in, they don't wear shoes, they come down without, there's one guard, et cetera. This guard's wearing the shoes when he comes down. Presumably, he has to actually walk onto the floor, right?

And I think that there is something about the way that he marches across the space that, again, is about separating the doctor from the workers and making sure that. that he doesn't get to, the guards like it, that there is, that there is, like, uh, no, no sense of community between the doctor and any individual group, right? The doctor doesn't, he's not like, oh, hey, Bill, you know, hey, hey, ham. The ham and the doctor do not have words, right? They don't make eye contact. They have to be on program and get, and he gets marched past them all. So for me, it felt like it was about keeping that wall between the two groups or between the doctor and then the working union. units, um, uh, uh, keeping that wall up.

I don't know. Did you have a different, did anybody else have a different read though? Well, I also just think that like the way the prison is designed that like, there's so few points of interaction between guards and, um, everybody else that like that is the way that guards get in. They are protected in a very specific way. Um, they,

they need, because like to be one guard going onto a prisoner, onto a prison or onto a prison floor of 40 dudes like they know the risk of a breakout so they they've controlled them in all these other ways and like that's his only way of access yeah i do think you're right all i think it's like emphasizing the elevator as like a crucial in an out point i'm sure we'll be back the elevator is going to play a pivotal pivotal uh role in whatever this breakout ends up being i can i can feel that um coming ahead yeah like and just the degree to it's like uh the way the guard is so checked out of like again this whole system the the actual security of it is the idea that the prisoners are so discouraged nothing will be attempted uh but like guards inattentive

like he's unless these guys have an entire conversation doesn't interrupt it knowing that they couldn't try anything he's got his little booties uh and he'll be, he'll be fine. But like, yeah, it is, it is just the fact that nothing is asked, really, that is the vulnerability. They don't listen. They don't pay attention. They are overconfident. And I can't wait until that pays off because at the end of the scene with, you know, where they lay Ulaf to rest as they walk down the hall and head to their quarters and or repeats the question, how many guards on each floor. And now Kino gives the answer. And Kino is bought in.

No more than 12. Killer line. Like sometimes you just make, sometimes you just make great genre TV. Sometimes you just make a great, a great prison break story. Like there is, it's just like a beat for beat.

You know, this is not an explosion of the prison break story. This is not a decontritor. They just made a fucking good one. And so far, it's been great. Allie, you were going to say something.

Oh, I just wanted to mention there, there's a very, small point in a scene here where it's, I think it's the second, like, um, things are wrong with Ulav at the line or whatever when it's, um, another table is getting the zap. Um, and there's a specific moment where it shows Andor's face and he's refusing to look at the group, which I thought was really interesting. Like he specifically has his head down. But you also see Kino in the back of the room and he's staring at Ulaf. And he has this like very intense,

Like, the, like, the, the, the way that I, I've sort of been thinking about is that, like, you, throughout the episode, as Kino is, like, appearing more, more, like, agitated by what's going on here is he's, like, seeing the carrot dissolve in front of him. And I think a big part of that is him seeing himself at Ulav, or at least being like, you know, I've done my part in terms of taking care of the people on this floor. he's my hope I want to see this person sailed off that's the best that I can do for him and that's this slow realization that like he's not getting out of here and I'm not getting out of here

and now I have to do something to help these people as like a good arc to see and is very well acted in terms of this guy just like looking increasingly stressed out throughout the episode Shaz Annie Sarcafied

He's getting snokified eat shit he's not snoke he's not snoke he is not snoke he is not snoke kino is not fucking snoke he's not snoke okay listen to me really carefully please i'm begging you i'm begging you he's not snoke okay uh this that whole theory reminds me of i once had someone explained to me or at great length as if i could possibly care that Alphrey Woodard

appears in Captain America Civil War as a mother to a kid who was killed in Socovia and her anger at Tony Stark leads to this crisis of conscience and then she appears later

in Luke Cage season one as like the rising kingpin in Harlem and this guy just starts going on about

well you know of course it's the first time an actor has played two different characters in the MCU and there's a theory that you know she actually she's this alien race and that there actually was no kid in Sikovia and that actually these are both personas that and just like

an eye glazing explanation of like Man, so much is implied by the fact that this character actor appears in these two different things. And it's just like, it's a character actor. This is what they do. They appear in different places doing different things. Being different characters. In this case, one is Andy Circus and Ani Circus and one is Andy Circus in a mocap suit,

which is the other thing you pay Andy Circus to do. Yeah, uh-huh. But. So still all better than the people. I just can't go down this road so but the reason that last line is good is just because it's good it's not because it's a reference to anything

yeah and that's okay that's okay we get that satisfaction of like now he's all in right yeah it's literally it's literally it's fucking Henry Cavill doing the fucking arm arm reloading in

in a beautiful fallout like that's what this Let's fucking go. Let's fucking go. The other thing that I do love here as well is just like, in so many ways we see the like the arc of the empire play out in microcosm in the series, which is the prison works. All you have to do is just like play fair with the rules of a prison to an extent of like you

do your time, you get paroled, in between we break your spirit and we work you to the bone. And dudes like, he know, tons of prisoners will be like, like I will tough it out and I like I will give up on on resistance but they got to go that extra step to really mess with these guys and just like embrace outright sadism and cruelty and it flips that switch from well the worst they can do is kill me and this is why that prison's going to get got and this is why the empire is going to get got is there's just you know all those various ways that lay out lined for Tarkin in the first film you know the tighter you squeeze and the empire can't help itself.

Every, like this whole, this whole episode is, everywhere you look, they're squeezing harder. And even Dedra, who has that, like, arc earlier in the series of, like, we're kind of meatheads about how we go about all this. When entrusted with power and authority,

immediately defaults to squeeze them. Like, let's, let's get this moving. And it's, and we will see over the course of the series that continuing to blow up in people's faces. It's going to be awesome. Yeah. I mean, I do think it's also worth putting this into a conversation with Luton's thing that we keep coming back to, which is the thing of like, we need the empire to hurt people in order for them to.

Impression breeds rebellion. Impression breeds rebellion, which is like the thing that I'm still, I'm still so curious to see how this show ends up working through that because there are ways in which that is 100% true. And there are ways in which I don't know, you know, you know, sometimes. Sagarar asks, what are you, Luthin? And Luton says a coward. But it might be the case that Luton's an accelerationist, that Luton thinks that we should be like, accelerationism is a bunch of different things.

The accelerationism I'm talking about is a leftist belief that by heightening the contradictions of capital, by heightening the contradictions of modernity, you can push towards eventual revolution more quickly, right? Like, if Marx says that history is driven by, that the engine of history is class struggle and that class struggle is driven by contradictions

then you could push those contradictions further by making everything worse by making all of the current anxieties and tensions even more anxious and tense you can get to radical revolution more quickly and you know I don't think

it holds water I don't think that's a proper theory of history or change or revolution for lots of reasons and and you can again do your own reading on on critiques of accelerationism um but i also don't live in the galactic empire where accelerationsism might be a different have a different weight uh because the galaxy is so much more of a thing uh but i am curious to see if we come back to this idea that the best maneuver you can do if you hate an empire is drive it to hurt its own people more right

um i want to see that get explored more i want to see that get worked out more because what is is, or the bit that I can go with is the NEMIC version of it, which is, in day-to-day life, it's hard sometimes to see the ways in which oppression is happening. How do we pull those into relief? Luthin's theory is you push them to work harder on you. It might be the case simply that you have to pay better attention and get a better PR department and like invest in messaging and invest in fucking magnifying glasses. No one in the prison had the bright idea to.

make them torch level four. What they did have is learn how to communicate that, oh my God, some shit has happened. What they did get is they were able to push the medic to get that final answer at some point about what happened. And I think that that word spreads, you will get that response. But it didn't come from Luthin

sending in a squad to get that reaction from the prison. And I want to see how those ideas continue to being put into conversation with each other. We will see how this all unfolds next week. as hopefully we get a juicy prison break, and I hope it's bloody. I hope lots of guards get got over the course of this one.

I want to see them fry. I want to see them fry. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, the moment when the guards go to put on their boots and the boots are gone, and they realize they're standing on the floor and that someone else is wearing their boots, that's cinema. It hasn't happened yet, but if it happens. I've got lots of dreams

about how all this can play out but in the meantime if you want to catch up on our Q&As we recently had one about the first two arcs of the series or you just want to support the show you can do so at patreon.com slash civilized until next time please rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice

and remember to show some love out there hashtag Kiro to to let Let Disney know about your favorite new ship and make sure that they give us more of that sweet content we crave. Sorry, content we crave. Shout us to Patrick Willem's amazing shipvid should host. Oh, we need to talk about this.

Yeah, what's up with that video? We'll tweet it. We'll retweet it. What's Natalie? Give me a moment. I'm pulling it up. I have to say, the choice to use Taylor Swift's mastermind as the track for the ship bid is truly inspired. Yes, Patrick H. Willems on Twitter made a elevated piece of ship content of hashtag Kiro that I just I simply think needs to be in a museum somewhere. Like, it is just, it's, it's, it's exquisite to me.

It's, I, it feels like it was, it was manifested out of my own brain. Like, if somebody reached inside my head and just pulled out and it was this video, it's amazing. Like, as I was going to bed last night, I would, like, I had this thought where I was like, man, if I had time, I would love to just add the most toxic ship bed around these two. because there's such a great tradition there of like taking characters that like boy there's a whole bunch of reasons this is not something to be idealized or like something you want to see

yeah and then people being like hell yeah what if I just ripped this all from context and just like show you the most disturbing possible interpretation to place on all this and then put music over it and voila by morning it existed people have feelings feelings won't be put in a box feelings will do what they will

the only box that we put in is a 4-3 video panel on Twitter as we can all sit back and appreciate and or's it couple my private box you snooped in my private box I have ways of knowing

just like he has noes of ways of knowing knows of ways just like he has ways of knowing your heart Dedra it's going to work out for those Kids. Anyway, that's a show. Don't let her into his private box.

Patreon.com slash civilized. And show her his clone troopers. Yeah. God, can you imagine that you're walking into the house? Can you imagine introducing Dejadre to his mom? All right, we're just... I'm sorry. His mom would love her.

What you were going to say? No, his mom would hate her. This is exactly what I was going to say. Bringing out of Dejard to mom. be like, here's my girlfriend, the ISB agent. I think his mom would hate her. His mom would hate her because she would replace her. What need would Cyril have for Edy if Deidra's there to take care of him?

She would insist on moving into the new house with them. She, yeah, once Deidre has, you know, has the first kid, Edie would have to move in to be able to be closer to the grandchildren. and to be there to take care. Deidre needs to continue her career at the ISB. Who's going to stay home and take care of the kids? Eity. Edy will.

Ew. Well, also, like, her son can't be getting mixed up with these. Sicko's family. Yeah. Her son can't be getting mixed up with law enforcement that it's such an unbecoming career for him. Yeah. He wasn't made for it.

He wasn't. It's true. He's stretching himself too far. You know, he's good as being a middle manager at the fucking standard bureau I'm much more respectable I wonder okay here's a wild theory

is is uncle could Uncle Harlow be Chandrillon okay yeah could could Uncle Harlow be no Uncle Harlow can't be this fucking weird mobster I thought he could be the mobster

he can't be Davos Golden because that guy has a guy Daddy has a name, or Davos school. I know. Another popular fan theory right now is Luton Uncle Harlow. And it's like, I think it's too far. I think we can't do a third Luton. Yeah, that's too far. But we have to meet Uncle Harlem.

Yeah, we have to meet him. And Edie has to meet Dedra. And Edda has to meet Dedra. Dedra has to come over to find Karn, but he's not there. But Karn's not home. But Edie invites him in. shows him all the baby pictures. Do you want to bowl cereal?

A hot cup of calf? But then she kind of sees him in a different light, like seeing him in context. Right? Maybe by seeing his overbearing terrible mother. She goes into the bedroom, just as the son, the one brief moment of son happens.

And she's like, that's all you got, huh? I could be the son. What if Edie recognizes? S-U-N. what if Edie recognizes Deidre from

from Cyril's private box like there's a photo she's like I know you I've seen you before I've seen you before I've seen you before I've seen you before

I recognize you that's actually it's because there's candids of her walking into the office that's it that's it that's the real shit that's the real shit that's what's going to happen I get a go

all right everybody bye time that is my possible. Wait, recorded audio was lost. Uh-oh. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.