A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 50: "One Way Out" (Andor 10)

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

If you rewind the clock by two years, it was today, November 14th, that Ali, Rob, Natalie, and I got in the same group DM and made a decision: Let's do a Clone Wars podcast. Today, our 50th episode releases, and let me tell you: On that day, we could not BEGIN to imagine how much we would be feasting. Today's episode of Andor is a tight, focused 43 minute exploration of revolutionary sacrifice in its many forms. And while I could not call this nearly three hour long episode of our show anything close to "tight," I do think it's one of our best yet. So please, tell a friend, review the show on your podcast platform of choice, and (if you're in a place where you can) go ahead and give us some support on our Patreon. Here's to 50 more episodes of yelling about Jedi hypocrisy, theorizing about crybaby fascists, sometimes, complaining about mid-tier fandom, coming up with our own outlandish AUs, and (every once in a while) offering deep analysis. NEXT TIME: Andor Episode 11 Show Notes Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Austin Walker Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo) You can support the show and gain access to a monthly Q&A cast by going to patreon.com/civilized  

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zakney, joined by Aliaq Kampora, Austin Walker, and Natalie Watson. We are continuing with our weekly coverage of Andor before we resume our analysis of the Clone Wars at some point. Supported, as always, by our listeners at patreon.com slash civilized. go there, sign up, especially if you want access to or increasingly unhinged Q&As. Oh yeah, I already, I said, I literally sent Ali a Q&A question from someone else

who did not, I saw, I saw someone in the wild on a Discord I'm on, say, ask the Discord a question. I was like, can I steal that for AMCA? And they said yes, so I immediately sent it to Ali. So we're loading up with bangers for this next Q&A. Also, I just want to say two things really quick. One is, I'm really proud of the season that we're, of the show that we're making.

Andor has obviously given us a great deal of material to work with, but I'm very happy with what we've been doing here. If you've been happy with it, go give us a couple bucks on Patreon, patreon.com slash Civilized. I find that it feels like we sharpened a blade over two years and then we found the exact perfect thing to use it against, which was Andor. The other half of this is, oh my God, the outpouring of people saying we were doing a good job. I would not have said the first thing I just said without that outpouring because I would not have had the confidence that we were doing a good job

without receiving so many kind words about the show from so many corners of the world obviously there are some real ones who've been here from the jump I don't want to undersell that and like under appreciate y'all shout out to you Jaybo shout out of Takedo

yeah so you're here for Jbo and Takedo and for Nouveauvindy if you were here for the younglings arc If you were here for those dot for whatever in the void You served with the squad. Froggy Yoda. Yes. Yeah, if you're here for attack of the clones,

have you suffered through that, which by the way, if you join us just for Andor, it's a Clone Wars podcast. We opened by going to the prequels and like digging, digging in with the prequels. So you should go listen to those.

But there has just been a real outpouring over the last week or two as the show has continued to pick up pace and continue to outdo itself. I know we got shouted out over on the ringer I know that we've gotten letters and people

and it's just been it's been very very heartening and heartwarming so thank you so much for all the support thank you for recommending us to your friends yeah seriously

thank you for recommending us to your friends we don't you know we truly are all working a lot in our regular lives and so we have others we have not done a ton of promotion for this show

y'all have been the promotion for this show, outside of a few, like, clips we've put on Twitter. So thank you so much for helping to promote us. We were putting a lot of hard work into this, and it means a lot that that's been appreciated. So, like, literally, I think I got, like, 12 DMs, you know, within hours of the last episode going up, even though I had, even though we had to use a backup to be like, hey, the production gags you're doing are very fun. Hey, this conversation reminded me of this interesting thing I saw.

Here's some more info on that. like tons of people super engaged with the show. It means a lot. So, thank you. So. Also, guess what? We're about to talk about another banger. Yeah.

Guess who's getting dressed today? Kino, motherfucker, boy, boy, bha. He is getting dressed. Hey, sorry, Cyril. Car's full. You can catch the next episode. Can I tell you something? Can I admit something to you right now?

Please. Please, please, please. I didn't. Did you not even notice? I didn't even think about it until the very end of the episode. I was like, where, where,

where I, he wasn't there. He wasn't in it. He wasn't there. I was so keynote-pilled. I literally sent a message today to somebody where I said, get ready for a wild-ass episode. It was so good.

I think even though Karn wasn't in it, Natalie is going to have shit and piss herself. Yeah, I did. I did shit and piss. I did. Yeah, unbelievable And that's the scale we use here Oh yeah

That's the review scale If your friends have told you Go to a more civilized age They bring out the theory They bring out the big picture conversations Around cinematic history and political theory Sometimes you've got to talk about shit and pissing Sometimes it's just so good

That you get a message that says I am shitting and pissing from Natalie Watson So in the broad outlines This is the prison break episode we pick up right at the time of Ulaf's death Kino is still uncommitted and the first few minutes of this episode is really all about getting him

and the whole crew in Unit 5-2 committed to the plan and then most of the rest of the episode is the execution of that plan and that ends with Andoran Melshi running free on a strange shore having taken over and then busted out of the facility on Narcina

before the breakout begins we do get in Motham's meeting with Davo Skullin as she contemplates just how much she is willing to be compromised and more importantly how much she's willing to let her family be put at risk in some way by this bargain she needs to strike we also see Sinta sizing up the imperial surveillance on Marva on the planet Farrix by the way imperial surveillance could do a better job blending in it's amazing how they're trying to to defend it Unbelievable. Speaking of blending in. Yeah, so most consequentially, we see the ISB setting their trap for Krieger's Spellhouse raid, and the last portion of the episode gives us a surprise, as we learned that one of the ISB agents, the thin, red-headed guy with the mustache, I knew it, I felt it.

He is a double, and he has sent signs for an emergency meeting with Luthon. He thinks he is warning Luthan And also tendering his resignation from the rebellion But in an episode like this This is saying something I think this might be the most spellbinding Like 5, 10 minutes of the show to date And across that scene

Luton sets him and us straight On who Luton is and what he is capable of doing And demanding We took a vow You know, we take a vow I need to hear this vow I'm going crazy I need to hear it with this fucking vow.

Me too. I want to see it. Me too, because it's, I bow to the force. I know it. I know it. I know it. I know it. I know it.

I can't believe how Jedi-pilled I am for this. And in a way where I don't hate it. Because I still kind of hope I'm still kind of truly in my heart of hearts hope he's not a Jedi. He's no Jedi connection. It's way, it's way better if he doesn't. But also, that motherfucker talk like a Jedi. He talks like a fucking Jedi. He's out here talking

But like we're all kind of talking to ghosts In some ways You know what I mean? But that was flagging Jedi Is what it's happening now All right so Where do we let's jump? Let's jump in

Yeah let's So I mean actually really quick Literally before anyone is on screen Very interesting to hear Last episode two episodes ago Now Natalie pointed out the audio The intro music changing And the increase in this arc

To this kind of distorted synthi stuff that started with the start of the Narcina arc. The synths and the distortion are not in the intro, right? That stuff has been pulled out. We're back to a different style of like regular, you know, or orchestration. And the build is just instant, right? We are building musically throughout this entire episode. The rhythm is pounding whenever we're in Narcena.

It's great. Until we go to Dead Silence. Right. And then. Which is, yeah, the use of no, like, score is really pointed. for effect here as well. So actually, the quick aside then, because I love to handle the Luton stuff

and the prison break stuff in big blocks. I'll just go to Sinto real quick here as a place to start. The fact that the Imperial Surveillance team, they're unleashing their best, their most advanced tools, the ISB is getting pretty crafty. They put cops in like garbage clothes,

and they're like, that's what a fairt's minor looks like. But he's wearing a fucking first order hat. This fool's wearing. wearing a first order hat just with a different color way on it with the casual color way like what are you saying bro you're not even hiding you y'all remember that video where it's this guy going around being like i can tell you i can point to you uh an undercover cop in new york yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yeah the wristband on the day the wristband of the day on like like I feel like the surveillance net is in no danger of catching Sinta. Yeah, she seems to be, she seems to be holding her own. It's the whole conversation, I mean, you really see the whole community rallying around Marva. Like, everyone is invested, is involved.

There's people waiting outside her place. There's people, there's a doctor approaching with other community members. I love that. little group of all of them in their in their just like regular-ass clothes or big scarves and jackets is just so good it's great well it almost implies like with bix being out of the picture like the community like okay now nobody has marva so everyone's got marva that's what's changed like you know with when it was bicks and uh uh brasso they they felt like it sort of felt like it was all on them that it was on them to like take care of marva and it feels like

Like, maybe in the absence of, like, what was kind of her extended family, like, the whole community is kind of getting on board with this. Which is actually kind of an interesting extension of some of the accelerationism stuff that we talked about, and Luton's broader theory about what happens when the grip, you know, becomes too tight. Because in practice, what's happening is the grip broke the safety valves, right? Bix is gone. With Bix gone, that means Marva needs support. from the, and Marva can't, Marva is also apparently sick enough that she can't deny the support at this point.

But it's like, she's denying a lot, but just to be clear, she's like, the issue is she's refusing to take pills. Or take the pill. She won't eat the pill because they put her off her food, right? She ruins the taste. But my point being, if the theory is, the theory isn't, or the thing that we're seeing in practice

isn't when the safety valves break, everything goes to chaos. It's when the safety valves break, community rushes in. People become increasingly, the solidarity kicks up when the safety valves break. When manage, when, we'll talk about this in a moment, you know, when you lose that mid-level management, it's not that you lose control of the floor. It's that they start collaborating, right? And in some ways, that's a much more optimistic take on what stories like this often say, which is the empire squeezes so tight that they lose control and everything goes to hell. Everything,

This is the, it contrasts with the Mandalorian speech that we reference all the fucking time. Please sit. It is a shame that your people suffered so. Just as in this situation, it was all avoidable. Why did Mandelor resist our expansion? The empire improves every system it touches, judged by anymetric. safety, prosperity, trade, opportunity, peace. Compare imperial rule to what is happening now.

Look outside. Is the world more peaceful since the revolution? I see nothing but death and chaos. I would like to see the world. like to see the baby. That what the empire does is create stability, the absence of it is chaos. This is the thing, well, actually, you know, the absence of the squeeze is doctors actually come in rush in to save the day, or the community actually seems like it tries to gel, at least.

We'll see where it goes. Well, the other thing I would say is, if we're talking about the necessary preconditions for revolution, like one of the funny things is on Aldani, the imperial program is to shatter all down the identity and culture. On Farrex, that, whatever that process is, is long completed. Right. But they have created a different culture that has a strong central identity around the community and the work that they do.

That, like, the work of alienating workers from one another has come undone in some ways here, just from the way that things are constructed on Farrex. And so this is, like, this kind of feels like an interesting misfire of the program is that as this place has become kind of a dumping ground for the detritus of this modernity that the Republic and the Empire have built, they have created effectively the type of like mining towns or steel towns that, you know, a hundred years ago, those folks families were all up in the hills, you know, like doing craft industry or hundreds. hunting or like local trade and now you know they're this close to like uh taking it taken to a picket line uh or right or attacking the company do we also just want to hit the mon mothma stuff before we yeah the two big bites yeah so she is yeah so she's meeting with uh davo uh davo or devo davo i don't remember if we got first name is it davo davo Davos Scullden.

So funny. By the way, here's the thing, though. There's an art to bullshit Star Wars names, and they're nailing it here. A name that, like, you know, evokes Davos, the big, like, money power broker. Like, the town of all the money and the power brokers in the world meet, Skolden, Sklduggery, you know, skulking. Davo, motherfucker named Davo, right? And it's that Star Wars. It's like both just on the nose enough.

It's Dave O. Yeah. Uh-huh. It's literally Dave O. It's Dave O. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yep.

It's both of those things. It's, it's, I love it. This is a deliciously uncomfortable meeting. I think if, I think when I'm tagging myself in this picture, I think I'm Tay. Actually, who can feel how, like from the jump, how far. off course this is going. There's the weird defensive note as

Skullin sort of immediately sizes up the sort of old world elegance that he's in and she says, well, I didn't decorate this place. It's state property. I'm not allowed to do anything with it, which I'm not, it feels pretty reflective of her in some ways.

But we get the really tense small talk that gets to this exquisite line that raises so many questions. As he asks after her husband and she closes that door, she slams it shut, he

says, many cultures don't appreciate the clarity of a chandrelin marriage. Even our own people are confused at times. Boundaries can be liberating. The old ways have value. This was such a curious line to me because he's responding immediately to the fact

that parent is to be kept out of the no. Right. this, you know, meeting of what's to come, how, you know, Mon Mothma is going to be dealing with her money, et cetera. And the fact that his response to that was, this is the point of a chandelion marriage. This is the value of specifically a chandelion in marriage. Has me asking so many questions about.

Separate bank accounts, you know, you keep the door closed. Like that's pre-nup. like that's in the culture is like we are not fucking with each other's accounts like we have separate I'm just so curious if that's just like a financial aspect if it's if it's I don't think so I mean there has to be like interpersonal echoes of that in how they engage with each other and what they let on with each other and I've room for discretionary activities or the expectation thereof, right, I think is being suggested. You know, there's an interview.

I don't know if this was a Rolling Stone or what with Tony Gilroy, where someone asked him straight up, like, what did Disney tell you you're not allowed to do? And he's basically nothing narratively, but, you know, we can't, we can't curse, we can't show as much sex as we would like to, you know? And it's like, I bet we would have gotten, there's some stuff I bet we would have gotten about. Tay and, and, uh, um, on Mothma, not Tay. I meant, I meant parent, but also maybe, maybe with day, uh, around what that relationship is and who's seeing what. Because you can actually do a lot. They've done some, right? We've seen Perrin at the parties talking up various ladies.

And we're like, are they signaling that he's like stepping out? Like, what, or is he just a flirt? But when we heard it, it's actually just been him working the room, which is totally. Right. So I'm like, where is the line? there. What's happening? The other thing about that line that you just pulled out, Natalie, uh, the, the, I guess Rob, you mentioned it, but now that you focus on the old ways have value. He, he opens this whole conversation by saying it's a bit old, isn't it? Like you said,

Rob, I like new. And it's like he likes new as in shiny satin blue robes compared to their much more monochrome bages, they're, they're neutrals. Um, but, but he also consistently comes back to the old ways have value. Uh, and that, working out, what? is it that you like that's new? What is it that you like that's old? Do you really like anything or do you just like what you like? Do you even, do you have a schema, you know? He, he describes quote, the freedom from other people's opinions as to being a part of this newness, which is like, it's very, yeah, it's hard to gauge whether he's just ebbing and flowing between tradition and newness according to what kind of fits his...

They're tools, right? Right, exactly. I also feel he's cold reading her a bit, though. He throws all these darts at the opening. I like the new. He sees how this goes over, and then feels out like, what are the sensitivities around family,

feels out those boundaries, and then falls back on this, you know, Shendrelin tradition. I respect that. Like, I can get with that. Also, I do love just the implication that, you know, this is not a settled question in chandrel in culture. You know, there's this implication that, like, hey, young people may not want to do it

this way anymore. These, these marriages, and it certainly bears all the hallmarks of, these are not marriages that are sustainable outside of an upper class where the amount of resources the partners in a relationship can command, allow them to effectively live separate lives. But this sort of allusion to the fact that, like, this is an ideal that may already be falling apart in the culture that it's inherited from. But really, I think he is feeling her out because I was struck by when it is time to bring the conversation around to the actual bargain.

He pitches it as he is aware that he's helping finesse some financial skullduggery. But he also notes that, you know, these financial disclosure laws, they're imperial laws. And are those really even laws at all? Because they're not done in conjunction with the Senate. He is speaking her language. He has done his homework. He finds it, yeah. Yeah.

And so I was kind of struck. I feel like in the opening salvos of this conversation, it feels like he's taking ranging shots, trying to figure out like where do we sit in relation to each other. What is the message to pitch her? Which sounds very conciliatory until we feel the jaws of the trap. begin the snapshot in a moment here. Because I'm curious

what you all made of the price he asks. Mamav is horrified by it, but I'm not sure if she isn't taking it. I can't figure out if her read is correct, or if she is overreacting to a request for

social currency rather than I mean, I think she has him dead to rights very early on here where he says oh, I don't want any, I don't want to cut. So the lead into the actual pitch is she says, you know, well, how much would your fee be for moving this money from, again, the thing that's happening here is she has a lot of money in a family account that she can't access without the ISB tracking it. He's saying we have ways, we have packages, you know, we can

bundle money up in ways that make that happen. And she says, well, what would you call, what would the cost be basically for moving that money from my account that is trackable into an untrackable, untraceable account. And he says, oh, I wouldn't have a fee. And she immediately recognizes that this is a classic maneuver, right? This is the like, oh, but I know you a favor, right? And that favor is going to be a much higher cost than if I just give you 10%. I'll pay you. Let me pay you. I don't like going favors, she says. And he then unfolds, oh, what I want is to come, is to visit again and to bring my son. My son is 14. Your daughter is 13. You can see that both Mon Mothma and Tay immediately pick up on what's happening here.

She pushes on it and says, basically just says no, out there, out right away. And he's, well, listen, I'm just talking about an introduction. I'm not talking about a betrothal here. And from there, she closes up because she does not, this is the thing you're saying. Do we think that she's right, that he is, of course, asking about a betrothal, even if he says he isn't? And I think he is. He's a hundred percent, a hundred percent. He, but he, he's saying, he's, he's just not saying it, but he's saying it.

Like, he knows that to say it would be to be, like, completely gauche and that, like, he, he, he's hiding behind all of the sort of civility and, and, you know, just, you know, manners of, you know, chandel and company and society and, but. Yeah, he's a sharpshooter asking for. ammunition. Like, yeah, you're not, he's not saying, can I shoot you? But he's a sharpshooter and he's going to hit his target. He wants the introduction because he can then from there manipulate it forward. And I don't know, maybe it falls apart and that means that, but he can still use the introduction as a way into Corrassanti, you know, high culture or whatever, high society, but no matter what Mon Mothma does, she loses if the, if the kids meet each other. Because you know certainly that if Mon Mothma goes to her.

her daughter and is like, I don't want you talking to that boy. Like, you should have nothing to do with him. Her daughter, first thing, they're going on a date to the space movies that weekend. And Dave was like, well, I told my son not to pursue it after you told me they shouldn't. Yeah, and he's broken her heart. Like, it's just every, every aspect of this, as soon as they meet, it's over for Monmouth. She loses no matter what. It's too easy to manipulate.

Okay, well, follow up. do we think he's right? And, you know, when he says, she says, she shuts it down immediately, right? He tries to push on and basically says, sleep on it. And she says, no, I'm not, no. There's nothing to think about. I'm not thinking about it. And on his way out, he turns back and goes, huh, that was the first untrue thing you've said.

Do we agree? No. No? He's just like He's just playing at planting that seed himself I don't think Mon Motha is

Okay so maybe that's the better question Do we think him saying that Is this the last time we see Dave O'Skolden Or does she Is the next time we see Mon Mothma It's her sitting down with Leda Being like There's someone I need you to meet

I don't think so I like because I feel like Especially this conversation is so In conversation with the Luthan scene in terms of like, what are you willing to sacrifice? What is the future that you think that you're going to see? And like, Mon Moth's position as a mother, like, puts her in the position of like working towards something for someone instead of being this like broad, like, oh, I have to do this

because the way that things are going can't be going anymore. So you think she retains this, whereas Luton sacrifices this. Yeah, exactly. And, like, especially with what we saw with her, with Val, like, I keep thinking about, like, she's not radical, but, like, what her radicalization is. I mean, listen, if she's, she's spending money to give missile officers to level. She's not. Yeah. Like, no, I got to give her props to that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She plays the centrist really well. Right. Yeah, yeah. But, like, just in terms of, like, what that moment is for her in her head and, like, thinking of her as being like taking both of the young women in her life and being able to offer them something else seeing val as someone who also needed to escape this society and being like let me put you in touch with you know people who are building something right well i am i would

imagine that i don't know i think i think somehow she has she she she will have to make the same sacrifice as Luthan. I think it has to come from all, everyone has to be making sacrifices in order for this thing to work. Including, you know, the ISB guy. Right. Right.

I think what this episode is about is what are you willing to sacrifice? And I think Luton is putting his cards completely on the table is everything, everything, everything, everything and mon mothma will have to decide if that will be the case for and i think it just has to be in order for this to work they're very different shows they're very different shows where

one show says i'll give everything for this but i'm not going to give that we have to draw the line somewhere if we give if i would do this then what was the point of the rebellion that's the isb officers that's the isb officer's entire argument is is i won't do this thing like i'm a father now i can't I won't sacrifice her. And that is not an option. There are also things, when you have multiple characters who are facing down a similar dilemma, you can have them answer it different ways as long as you're truthful as a writer about the repercussions, right? So for instance, if she could deny this to Davo, but remember, Davo knows Peron. He says early on, I've met your husband many times.

could still squeeze his way into this without Monmouthma being the one who pulls a certain trigger, right? There are still ways that he can get what he wants or make himself a pain in Monmothma's side where we get from Luthin the man who's given up everything and we get from Monmothma the person who learns you can't dodge sacrifice someone under the current circumstances once you start to play ball you've already given up something. You know what I mean? There are other ways that the story can unfold without her also deciding what Luton. has decided. I'll note the one thing that's

occurred to me that just hasn't been floated is they're sitting on probably less now, but they stole 80 million credits from the empire. Like, Luthin could probably launder some of that into like petty cash and it like shows back

up as a deposit. You know, maybe that still raises flags, but it's like, I do wonder if she's been avoiding going to Luthin to bail her out of this as well because her, strategy for building this rebellion is different from his. And there's

a philosophical gap that's open between them. It hasn't opened up into a rupture, but it is there. And I'm just surprised it has not come up as a point of discussion between them. Listen, you know, she could also,

we could also get the end of season Jimmy Smith's arrival. She could go to bail. I'm like, I hate suggesting things like this because it's Star Wars brand and this show is not Star Wars Brained. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but Bail Organa fits in this like Bale fits in the story.

That's the problem. He does. God, that'd be great. That'd be great. I'll just sell one of my cars. Right. Right. So, Bail Organa has the Jay Leno car garage. Yes. Oh my God. Just liquidate the garage, bro. That's a whole ass rebellion right there.

So the other thing is, So I think, really, just really quick, because we move past it pretty quick. Again, Disney Plus, Star Wars and or this is a story about selling off your 13 year old daughter to a crime lord. I don't want to be clear on what we're talking about here. It's not, you know, this is not trafficking, but it is the sort of political marriage that is effectively owning someone else's life and body and using it as a political. Chet in an exchange. Yeah.

Based. Disneyplus.com slash video slash 93C. 891 DC hyphen 30. Like, okay. They really let you do the thing. Okay. Shoutouts.

Also, also, also, also, Daveo's vibes are wild. Just on entrance. Anyone, I just, I was like, this is not at all who I was picturing, but also is exactly the perfect it's perfect it's perfect it's amazing so this is the thing i can't figure out is like i i feel like a dude like this if if there's not enough velvet glove he couldn't be who he is you know what i

mean and this is the problem is like madmothma's distaste and hostility form to me smacks also like so much of just blue-blooded old money snobbery she detest this man and i like i still i have this suspicion that, like, one, is he a mobster? Or is he just like a shady finance here? Right. That's the thing. Is he basically running like a Swiss bank and like kind of a dirtbag? But that's, that's the one part of this. I don't, I don't think we've seen the last of it. I don't think they, I do not think they refer to this guy an episode ago and introduce him with the scene and then it goes away. I think this deals, this deal is getting done in one way or another. Why would she have such a disdain for him? Like, prior to,

him suggesting that they marry their children for, you know, political gain. But that's what Shandrelins do. That's the other thing is it's not that far out. It's not a wild request. Yeah, but you know she spent the last 15 years of her life ever since she was married to parent being like, but not our daughter. We're getting out of this. I'm going to go live on Corrassant.

She's not going to be from San Jandrella. She's going to be from Corrassant, right? And like, they were already married for a year before. Yeah, before they moved before. Exactly. And it doesn't seem like he's thrilled with, Perrin is thrilled with this tradition either. So it's easy to imagine this could have been.

And we're really projecting here or really digging, but like could have been a thing they both agreed upon in, in concept. Or it's going to be a thing that he could have always assumed they were going to do it and she could have not assumed. And that will be a wonderful scene. I just want to shout out her acting really quick on the scene. Genevieveo O'Reilly, absolutely. The ability to be like,

Like, I am maintaining poise. My hands are not crossing me to indicate any sort of hostility or defensiveness. My hands are flat on the couch. I am seething. I hate every part of this interaction. I hope you will die. I hope the blood in you. I hope it just stops.

I hope it just stops. It turns to a solid. That's what I want for you right now. The energy she is projecting. And it's all behind like this tiny smart. Well, serene. Yep. It's incredible.

It's so palpable. We keep getting the shots of Tay. looking at her as if she is a live grenade that they were sitting in the room with. So scary. Like he isn't scared, he isn't scared of Skullden. He's scared of what Mamatha might be about to do at any moment in this scene.

Momah about the Han Solo to do it. She's sitting back. Like, she's got her hands like by her hip. I'll take the loan out of your hide. Yes. Yes. Yep. So, with that, I think we've covered our bases. It's time to get to Narcina.

five oh my god what a cry bro so the opening the episode we've actually you know as satisfying as was as never more than 12 was kino's not fully in he's actually broken when we open on the episode uh we get some we get some great circus here uh like it's it's fantastic he looks utterly despairing um and he needs a pep talk but he the pep talk comes in the form of this this dialogue he has with Andor, what Keeno sees when he looks at their situation is that they are up against an impervious edifice. Andor is making a different argument about what the state of play is in this facility. Yeah, I think, you know, he's pushing back on it and basically saying, like, there's no way we can do it. And the point that, the point that Andor tries to make,

I think Kino calls him insane. And he goes, no, listen. They don't have enough guards and they know it. They're afraid. Right now they're afraid. Afraid. Afraid of what! They just killed a hundred men to keep them quiet. What would you call that?

I call our power. Power. Power doesn't panic. 5,000 men are about to find out they're never living here alive. Don't you think that worries them upstairs? Whatever we're making here is clearly something they need. They can't afford. to be surprised again.

There'll never be less guards than tomorrow. You know that. On program! Every day we wait, they get stronger. It might be wise to have a plan. We have a plan! Oh, what, you? You and Borough and Melchie!

You don't have time to be stupid! Come on! Plan works around a new man coming down! They'll replace who left tomorrow. That might not happen again until it's too late. I'd rather die. Trying to take them down than die giving them what they want. We won't have a better chance.

It has to be tomorrow. Program! On Blue, receive directly to yourself. Cape, where is it? State. You have 30 seconds to get on your sleep. obviously power doesn't panic is just a killer line but I'm going to be petty really quick

and I get to be petty in two ways one is whatever we're making here is clearly something they need they can't afford to be surprised again confirmed they are not making things and unmaking things in a different room and doubly so because Tony is out here in an interview this week where he explet did you all see this? Did I link this?

He explicitly He explicitly, he explicitly said, you know, I saw a thing where people said that, you know, they were just making things to unmake them in a different room. Obviously, the empire is a huge thing, and it's trying to get as much as it can out of everybody. So I love to see, I love to see a bad theory get shut down. That's all. Tony's out here. Tony's reading. He's reading.

Reading the takes. I also, I do love that interpretation. that Andor is offering, like, you know, there's two ways of interpreting these, like, you can see an empire or the authority or the people in power lash out incredibly violently. And you can see that as the signal of, like, why, don't even resist, don't even try, you can't even do it. Or you can also see it as a desperate response trying to break resistance because actually there's not that much behind it.

Like, if the intimidation doesn't work, what is actually? will be there. And the implication that Andor has reached is there's very little. And this is where, you know, when he first got that walk through in the facility, we kind of sensed that it was a hollow edifice, that the floor is very impressive, the way they can control the prisoners. It's all very impressive. The guards were not. Their little security room was not. And boy, are we going to see that fold up fast in this episode in the satisfying way. Another small thing that's just like great script writing. And again, we talk so much about what the show does. in terms of political theory and like referencing, you know, anti-imperialism and anti-colonialism

and all that's great. Also, it's just a killer, and I've said this before, it's just a killer show in the genre, whatever genre it's working. And this is a killer heist or a killer prison break arc. And one of my favorite little things here that's just good, clean writing is the beginning of this scene, Kino tries to drag and, he goes on program because the, the voice says on program. Keno drops into it. And when Andrew stays behind, he goes over and tries to drag him over there, please just get on program. And by the end of it, after Andor has just shook him with this speech, Kino is the one who's just like left standing in place. And And Andor walks over, gets on program and then like growls back at him program. And he comes

back over and gets on. And it's just like the shift in power has happened. Andor is now pulling you into this because you need, in some ways it is this whole episode had me thinking about, um, Karn in episode three, and Karn's absolute inability to manage the situation to be the actual person behind the power. And so much of this is, and or giving the pep talk that Karn couldn't give, directing Kino to be the on the ground commander, but not needing to do it himself, being able to delegate. And also, he couldn't do it himself. He knows he can't do it himself. Whereas Karn thought he could, right? And the differences in understanding what they're roles are supposed to be here. Andor is doing the job that Karn should have done in that initial

attack on, on, uh, ferricks in that he has, he has the strategy. He has the plan. He'll do, he'll be a role player, but he's not going to be the guy. He's not going to be the guy ordering people around moment to moment. You need Keno for that. Keno's the big boy who can do it. And everything's going to hinge on him anyway because, you know, Kino and what I love about this is that, it's not just that there's a little bit of the dynamic, like, and or not wanting Nemick's book.

Kino doesn't want to have to, like, he is, because what he has to accept is his own death. What he has to accept is like, if he, if he buys into this, he is committing to probably tomorrow I'm going to die in a prison break. And so as Andor, they come back in the room, the floor goes hot, and door tells them, and this is why, like,

it is so wild that there's no, not even eavesdropping. Yes, he said, nobody's listening. No, and so he can just... The confirmation of that really, really got me. It was... He can just shout down the hall what they know and tell everyone nobody's getting out, and they need Keno to confirm

because they're not going to buy it for Mandoran. This is why Kina... There's a couple reasons Keno's key to this, but the big one is, he is the boss. He's the guy with most authority. Like, the guys look to him to lead. And as they're all like, I'd, like... As they're all, like, wrestling with this shocking news,

the fact, like, you can see the moment where Kino resolves that like there's no choice there's not even a choice it's just I have to accept that this is the moment and fully Andy Circus brass lunged just bellowing into that barrack

no one is getting out It's true. The rumors are true. They're not letting us go. Never. We're gonna die here or in the next place. So let's get our heads back in our cells and start figuring this out.

figuring this out. Give him the Emmy. If he doesn't get the NOM, if he doesn't get the NOM, you know, one way out. I might have to have a word. I might have to have a word. I might have to make some mistakes. I got to get, I got to get some things in order.

The face he makes, the face he makes when he's trying to steal himself to do it, his hands above his, like, just, Oh, it's so, it's so good. It's so good. And the way his voice drops sometimes, and he can't be the strong person he wants to be, just for a second. It just slips out that he's scared to.

It's just so perfect. It's just, what do you, what do you? Come on, television. Television. Television. It's so real. It's so raw. The emotions.

Unbelievable. Oh. God, it is, it is so great. the next time we come back to you know as the as the day shift begins Keino gets his he gives his final orders to the team

it is Austin we may want to excerpt this because this is another great circus moment If you were not watching this please it's time we are done with counting shifts there is only then and now there is only one way out

play it how you want But I'm going to assume I'm already dead and take it from there. There's no sense in warning the night shift. They'll hear about it one way or another soon enough. Let's make it look good. There is only one way out. And he just drops it there conversationally. There is only one way out.

That's not a big thing. He just says it. But I'm going to assume I'm already dead and take it from there. Well, he says, play it how you want. I'm going to. And we return to that theme of he always sees it as a game. What's the system? What's the play? What's the way to do this? How do we handle this? And here, the only play now is stake everything on a desperate attempt to, if not get out, kill these bastards. There's also a brilliant pacing mechanism that they use with the floors for the very beginning of this sequence as and or in, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, Kino are coming out into the dormitory area.

They're walking down sort of the promenade between, you know, the two sides of beds and everything, and you can see the lights of the floor. Everyone's like in their cubbies, and you can see the lights on the floor are only illuminating white underneath and or and Kino's feet. And so it's pushing, like you can, you feel this tension of the push as they walk the lights following red behind them indicating that the floor is now charged and then and or staying on the

floor until like the very last second but like leaps off with this just like very like this finesse to to it that feels like he's not he's not afraid of the floors anymore like there's nobody fears there's this very strange mix of like in the way that it's integrated into their lives and understandings and bodily awareness

but also like is that an absence of fear or is that just because it's so conditioned like it's such a bizarre thing to watch happen and to set up this particular conversation yeah that's a great note because it is like so much of what makes Andrew special

is that he sizes things up perfectly like I would never be able to not think about that floor. We'd never be able to trust that I've got the timing that down. He does and he stops thinking about it. Intuitively. Yeah. It's a rhythm for him. Yeah. I just want to say really quick also, there are so many great character actors in the show that we don't say Diego Luna's name very often. And it's interesting because he has to play the straight man here. He has to just play like, I'm the guy. And he's killing it. Like, he's just doing a great job. He, it is hard to be in a scene with someone as as powerful as

the performer as Andy Circus is in these scenes and not be overshadowed and I don't think he's over and again the scene that ends with Scarsgaard's incredible speech that we'll get to it's hard to not only talk about those people you know but Luna has so many things

he has to do right with small maneuvers expressions the scene that we're about to get to where he is you know hecticly trying to break a pipe it's hard to communicate tension and the that small space between complete dedication to a thing and the doubt that you might not be able

to fully pull it off the way you want. And he does that really well. And so I don't want to undersell his participation. And, you know, he's an anchor in this show. He has to be good for 12 episodes in a row. He's in every episode. You know, Dedra's barely in this episode. She gets to take, she gets to be on the bench for a little bit. She's here for like a bit. Carn is literally not here. And they're all great. And they're killing it. I'm not saying that they couldn't be leading, you know, actors. But, but he has to do the thing and he does it.

Like, this is a lot of show to carry as, as an actor. It's incredibly, it's also such a physical role. Like, it is really, really impressive. My God, he's climbing upside down in this episode. So, the other thing, so as the crew resumes the shift and, you know. Oh, we should say it outright. Right. The reason today is the day because Ulaf died. Uloff died, and that means a new guy is coming on the floor.

They're moving someone new into this prison onto their floor to replace Uloff. Well, it also and or made the, it also notes they probably figured out their underman. That's why they panicked. Right, right, exactly, totally. So it's the combination of they're already under man, they're already panicking because of what they just did on the other floor. They probably knew they didn't want to do it. It's too far.

they squeeze too tight, they know that, and they're opening the window of opportunity to bring a new person on, lowering the elevator to the ground floor, onto the work floor, which is, which was what he, and I already forget the other dude's name because he hasn't really, I think his name gets mentioned once here, who has been his main co-conspirator from a different table. Oh, yes. It's not Melchie. It's the other brother. I don't remember his name. Anyway, so yeah, so that's the, that's the context for why this is happening today. And because if they wait to the next person, the Imperals may have gotten their shit back together. They may have restaffed up. They won't be afraid anymore.

Allie, you're going to say something. Yeah, it seems time sensitive because by the time we get to the new next morning, there's already like harsher restrictions on the way people are able to move and like communicate with each other. They are now demanding silence when the two groups meet each other in the halls, which didn't happen before. And it's like your communication is going to get cut off that you can't organize this otherwise.

What I love about this too, though, is because keynote notes, no point in telling that a shift. Like, we have what we need. We're going to do it here today, just us. And the funny thing, to that point earlier, about how whoops, accidentally fair, because it's become a perfect hotbed for an uprising of sort, because there's really strong insular identity that's independent of the

imperials as a foreign force. The way Narkina has worked, They have imposed so much discipline on these prisoners. And the work they've made them do has turned them all into finely tuned machines that work together and trust each other. You know, when you see them all, you know, get on program and turn, you know, snap to attention and begin filing into the work shift, there's the realization that like, oh, they've created an army. Like, Kino is now a sergeant in command of, you know, a company of men and or as a general with an army at his disposal. And this is all, like, all of this is because of what this prison imposed on these guys. Right.

That the things that they all needed to break out of this place, the empire forced on them and gave them just by, like, the measure of cruelty and control days. I have to go Austin mode with apologies to Tony Gilroy, I guess. It's in the Communist Manifesto, which is not the Marx ending goals in this case that I go to the most for lots of reasons. But, you know, pretty early on in the manifesto, which is a short, you know, 50-page pamphlet, basically. He says outright, they say outright that bourgeois capitalist society produces, again, contradictions and produces crises. and their answer to the crises is to do more destructive crisis-driven stuff, like find new ways to exploit workers, right? And in the process, I'm just going to quote, the weapons with which the bourgeoisie felled feudalism to the ground, the weapons that the empire used against the old order, are now turned against the bourgeoisie itself. But not only has the bourgeoisie forged the weapons that bring death to itself, it has called into existence the men who are to wield those weapons, the mobies, the mob,

modern working class, the proletarians. Later, they write that with the development of industry, the proletariat not only increases in number, it becomes concentrated in greater masses, its strength grows, and it feels that strength more. Quote, now and then the workers are victorious, but only for a time. The real fruit of their battles lied, not in the immediate result, but in the ever-expanding union of the workers. Think about what this episode is about. This union is helped on by the improved means of communication. that are created by modern industry and that place the workers within the workers of different localities

in contact with one another. It was just this contact that was needed to centralize the numerous local struggles all of the same character into one national struggle between classes because every class struggle is a political struggle. This organization of the proletarians into a class and consequently into a political party

is continually being upset by the competition between workers themselves. They're turning us against each other. This is what they do on program. Compete. Try to get a better score. But they say it rises up again, stronger, firmer, mightier. The bourgeoisie, therefore, itself supplies the proletariat with its own elements of political

and general education. In other words, it furnishes the proletariat with the weapons for fighting the bourgeoisie. just like Nemek was crushed by capital, it's a little on the nose that they literally, literally go to war with the things that they've been building. Right. All the tools, they're not like, they're not make,

you know, making shivs out of, like everything that they use against physically, like literally materially, everything that they use against the guards and in order to facilitate the escape is just what's on the workbenchers. It's literally handed to them. It comes out of the table.

It comes out. They, they, aren't listening why would they have ever suspected they have such confidence in the power of intimidation and the power of fear that there's no they they have no reason to believe that they let them out like in the morning the moment that it really hit for me was when the floor turned white in the morning because they all night probably were talking or or making plans I mean, Kino is yelling, is yelling, like, we're not getting out. Like, no one's listening.

They don't have a decibel counter. Like, they literally, they're not even, there's not even a red light. Yeah, there's no, like, oh, disturbance on, whatever, like, nothing at all. The lights turn white. Everyone gets down from their beds and they go knowing that today is the day that they're going to break out or they're going to die trying. And it's like, that was such a powerful moment for me. And it just felt like. who we are in it today we're in it we are in it really quick the brother's name is

burnock the character who has been the shout the fuck else to burnock you know what i'm saying rossack coi good sounding board help develop that plan yep and as and as is the tragedy of things like this just like memic you're you're part of this thing and then you just get shot down at a moment. So, also, as they get underway and get in place for the breakout attempt, there's a little observation I made

a few weeks ago. I was like a little proud of it. I think I'm picking up on something from the show that Andor's most pivotal moments are associated with water. He's an elemental creature. Like, there's a You didn't even save this. Did we wait, did we put this on radio? No. We didn't put it on radio?

No. Because I was I was like, I thought it was too... Okay, here, you know, you, you say this on October 25th. I have the evidence in front of me. You say, do you want to read it? Do you want to read it in your voice? No, no, please, please.

Okay. You say, not sure if this is particularly, if it is particularly clever, but I am realizing now that there is a motif and or is using around water. He and, spoilers for Rogue One, he and Jim, dragged themselves to the water's edge in Rogue One to await the Death Star Blast. But the series opens on his walk through a driving rainstorm the night he kills those two cops. The flashback to Canari opens with him at the water's edge watching the ship crash. There is the reservoir on Aldani, but he doesn't go near it, Sinta and Veldu. He is unchanged by his

experience there. But it is on the beach at Niamos that his life's trajectory is altered again. Oh, and you could probably make something of the fact that when he charges those troopers on pharix, it's in the middle of a snow store. I was thinking about this. You fucking did that. Bro. Bro did that. Rob Zachny. That's Rob Zachny.

That's my boy. Y'all don't have boys like this. Y'all don't got a Rob Zakeney. We got a Rob Zakene. I did start to... You understand? I don't think you understand. My boy said

You haven't noticed He said My boy said Do you ever notice The place that water has? When Rob said that I was like, that's nice Right

I was like that's nice That's a nice little Motique No, this shit is real This shit is going on Rob Zakeney I wish I had the time stamp on it

Again We haven't seen We haven't seen Narkina 5 when he says this, I don't think. Have we? When's Narcina 5? We haven't seen Narcina 5 yet.

We haven't seen Narcina 5. We haven't seen it. We didn't know he was going to the prison on the water world. We had nothing. It was just Rob Zakni doing the analysis. This is the process. This is years. This is the worst place you could have imprisoned him.

He's a watertight Pokemon. So the moment especially because like when the moment when the so there's a flood in the the the floor that they're breaking out of right he caused it because it's that water main that he's been hacking into with the exact end he was doing it for weeks and none of us stopped and said what the fuck is he doing? I figured it was a lot of conduit or something yeah um the thing that I was going to say like the the moment the first moment that we see other people in the prison getting clued into what's happening is not blasters it's not smoke it is water dripping from the floor above and i was like i'm gonna ask rob about well i was also i was also like my little

observation i was like i think a lot of people are going to get it now because like the water starts washing across the floor the episode's going to end with the the concluding image of the escape from narkina is going to be like the fertilization egg in reverse the the people swimming away from the from the circle in the center of the frame the seeds of rebellion being like carried away on the water bursting away yeah uh-huh yeah yeah like blood from the like blood from a wound it's unbelievable but uh it is but i but i do love that uh you know in this handoff the guard's sloppiness once again is failed we see the sadist once again bullying the new guy we see they've They figured out the timing on how the guards check out whether the room is safe before they send them in.

So everyone's like doing their like, whoop, turning my gears. Let's let's, let's have a good count. There's that, there's that bit where it's like, how's it looking out there? And a guy kind of just shruggingly peeks out the way. He's like, looking good. Looks good. Yeah. Idiots.

And meanwhile, the people in the floor are handshaking. I know. Who is it? That close up of them. The shaking hand. The best shit is just fucking Kino and, like, fucking Andor is walking over to the, to the water main to go start his little,

you know, filing situation. And Kino walks behind as one way out. It's one way out. It's one way out. It's a going battle cry. One way out. I mean, yep. Is it, is it, Jembach?

Who is it who is it who's like, I'm dead? I'm already dead. I'm dead. No, Jembach's the bigger dude. Like the, like the, like, yeah. who's the other's like i'm pretending to be dead i'm already dead always the redhead dude who gets gunned down i think i think it's zol isn't it zol rap's an l yeah ripped us all um anyway the responses are just like the tension the tension ah by the way i saw you ask you like

why aren't there more aliens and and i think gilroy's response was kind of like i don't really want to work with the puppets and the costumes it's not really my he has no said a different thing which is also interesting also Gilroy is playing the press a little bit with his answers he will often

give answer A where he's like yeah you could do any sort of analysis to this I saw someone saying using the words accelerationist

Marxism ha ha ha ha and then like two interviews later being like yeah the heist on Aldani is modeled after

the one Stalin did to fund the communist revolution in Russia I'm just a guy who likes history though

And I mean, he is, right? And Lucas is that too, right? We often talk about the way that the prequel trilogies can be read, especially two and three, which happened post-9-11, or at least post-9-11, especially Revenge of the Sith, as being in conversation with the rise of American fascism, the response to 9-11, et cetera. But also, a lot of people take those movies as just being a broader commentary on the rise of tyranny, the Roman, the fall of the Roman Republic, et cetera, et cetera, et And I think that he is like Lucas in, you know, it's funny because how un-Lucas-like this show is, but like Lucas, he is a history nerd who is interested in the way that we keep going back to empire, the way that we keep falling into the trap and how people end up resisting it.

What it looks like to become radicalized into fascism, what it looks like to become radicalized into a revolutionary, great questions to have. And it is fundamentally important to understand that these are not things only connected to our contemporary moment, that, you know, over and over again, people do take power. And they often take power in different ways, but there are ways to identify that it's happening. There are things to pay attention to that are broader than whatever the contemporary mode is. And also to remind ourselves, there is no escaping the whatever comes next, whatever our way, whatever. whatever happens after we find our way out, there needs to be vigilance. There needs to be the idea that, like, we are putting processes in place and not just arriving

at some final destination of freedom from tyranny. There will always be somebody who's trying to spin that shit. So I think that that perspective that he puts forward is very good. But again, you know, going back, Rob, he says in another interview that the reason he doesn't want to do aliens, he says, you know, I saw someone say basically that aliens, that aliens are in a different prison. And that's probably true, basically. But he also explicitly says, I have it right here,

he's going to be three seconds to click on the link. There's already so much politics in the show to begin with. And we're trying to tell an adventure story, really. So adding strong alien characters means that all of a sudden there's a whole bunch of new issues that we have to deal with that I don't really understand that well, or I just couldn't think of a way to bake them into what we're doing. You'll see more as we go along,

but it's a legit question, and one will be answering it. as we go along. There was a more human-centric side of the story and the politics to it. There's certainly no aliens working for the empire, so that kind of tips it one way automatically. And him saying outright, they're their own political thing. They raise questions is... That's really smart. It's so good. I thought it was a production thing and not that he's like, I don't have the writer's room right now to deal with like, what does it mean when you have like a Moncala in a scene or something like that. I mean, did you see the...

thing that came out this week about the production of this show? Oh, the five-day writer room? What is going on? How is that possible? I missed this. The writer's room period for the... Go ahead, Natalie.

The writer's room period for the show was five days. Per episode? No. That's it. They broke this thing. They figured out Andor in five days. That's just so...

That doesn't mean... To be clear, that doesn't mean that they wrote it in five days. What that means is they came together There was a writer's room and plotted out this season, assigned who was writing what episodes, potentially what their directorial teams were, or at least who they would want to, what type of person they would want to direct each thing, what the major plot beats are, what the overall character arcs are. You know, they plotted out the show. They have an outline, right? They know what each episode is going to be.

They know what they're getting across. They know how those plot lines are developing, et cetera. The idea that they did that in five days is astounding to me. It's unfath, like, it confounds me. I don't know how that's possible. Unless, was everyone just so, like, in and just there was, it was, like, mind melded across, like, is there just, like, this very strong sense of trust between the, like, I just have to wonder what the dynamics.

I hope they filmed parts of it, like, that, like, that storyboard meeting. This is the most I've ever been, like, eating up the morsels of, like, production. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, they're going to fuck us. They're not going to put this on, like, high-deaf, Blue Earth, a ton of special features. It's just going to live on Disney. And it's going to be like you want to. Because, man, I would like special features.

Yeah. I was talking a friend about this, and he was talking about how Better Carl Saul just has a podcast after every episode where the people from the production team, either I want to say it's the showrunner or somebody else and then one of two people from production maybe do a podcast just about the episode that just came out and whatever the entire process. was for making it, and they're interviewing costume designers and actors and stuff as part of that. And I would, I'd pay $1,000 out of pocket this moment. I would.

I'd pay $1,000 for... I would love you $200 for the... I appreciate it. I would match you. We don't get to go to the tone zone. You know, I want to go to the tone zone. Please take us to the tone zone. We need one.

I'm going to speak possibility into the air. Yes. Because after the Boba Fett thing, Disney had that weird... Who's Boba Fett? peace documentary where it was like this is who Boba Fet has been throughout the like timeline of Star Wars so maybe we'll get

like a post and or season one like making of the show they did that that for Obi-One right the Beyond Lighten Matt they sure did it for the Mandalorian where they did they did tons of like featureettes for Mandalorian right I think so well they do the like

Star Wars dot com like day after the show here's a blog about it type thing right Oh, lights and magic was like a A Jedi's Return is the one I'm thinking for Obi-Wan Kenobi. They did a special that was you know

talking to the director Deborah Chow talking to casting crew. They do they do the thing that they did for most of the Clone Wars episodes of putting up an episode guide that has like trivia in it

and like some of the trivia is most of the trivia so far has been like did you know that you know a pock went to a separatist meeting on jondora and john dara was from the old republic and the headpiece that bix gets you know the torture headpiece looks a lot like low bots from empire strikes back i'm like that stuff's fine i like this note here that the isb the where the conversation between dedra and karn um uh had happened on corassant outside of the isb headquarters is just a plaza at Canary Wharf in London, again

emphasizing the British production nature of the show. But like, that's not what I want. I mean, that's what interesting, but I want to hear that from a set designer. I want to hear and I want more. I want the juice. I want so much. We learned a really interesting morsel also recently that

the production designer was in the writer's room. Right. Right. Which was really a fascinating detail because that's not not typical definitely not typical but the fact that

it seems like this the show was just approached from a very holistic perspective with every department head sort of in mind and in the conversation it's just it's very cool to see

it's like that was that the script magazine interview where he also said that he now he says the question is for writers who don't have the benefit of a production designer how can they pay attention to things like production design when they're writing and tony says i've come

completely around on the whole notion i don't ever want to hear anybody saying that writers shouldn't be directing you have to be directing i'm not interested in reading anybody else's scripts anymore who aren't directing the film that they're writing you should be making a film and showing it to me on the page king absolutely as a writer banger you know for people who don't know because they're just not in this part of the like film fandom to drop that that that F word. Inside of film subculture and filmmaking, there, you know, it has been a long standard practice of directors to chide writers who try to talk too much about what the film visually looks like, unless you have a really close relationship with a writer, or unless you're some

sort of all-star, like, truly, I don't even, I can't even name working filmmaker, working script writers who are given this leeway normally to direct on the page in this way to talk about shots or to talk about set dressing or to talk about what something looks like or feels like instead of just giving very basic stage direction

or very basic like here's the time of day here's where it's shot but giving the control of all that stuff to the director who may then re-delegate it out to production designers to cinematographers,

etc. But that is the traditional way of thinking about filmmaking is the maybe not traditional but the ascending way. Very church and state. Yes. Yes.

The writer is not meant to subscribe direction on the page. Like that's what being a writer director is for. Like then go be a writer director um, in, so it's exciting to see him say this. We won't agree. Yeah, it's cool. Thanks. Right, exactly. But then you're a writer

director and that, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like Gilroy's an unusual character in, in that he like not many, not many directors get to do the Billy Wilder thing of like going to be known as much her like writer director. Um, and so yeah, I, I, I,

do think like I like I I definitely agree with it and I wish there were more opportunities for it so going back to the the breakout yeah we've got the guards sort of not fully tuned in on what's happening how not tuned in they don't they don't notice as they take their positions on the catwalk the endor hustles back into the room soaking wet just absolutely drenched drifting whipping water on the floor as it floods behind him. Well, the other thing is that they kept getting like stern stairs all day because protagonists of a television show were being mugging them through the one window to think it's so funny. No one is holding back their disdain for the guards today. Everyone is giving them death glares. And, you know, sometimes you're just like, well, I guess we did torch a hundred people yesterday.

Maybe they heard about that. Pretty crazy, right? Yeah, uh-huh. The water begins to spread. New guy comes out. Well, and the score cuts out. Like when the guards go into the room. Which, what did Marva say?

Oh, that's right. It's when the bells stop. It's when the music stops playing. Ooh. And we get, it looks like there might be steady cam shots. We begin following the characters very closely from a very dynamic camera.

angles. We follow the guards like almost over their shoulder as they go into Unit 5-2. We sort of observe Andor from a similar position and we get the you know as they begin putting

the new guy on the lift a fake prison fight breaks out that old classic. Shout out to ham. Shout out to fucking ham and Zal. Kings amongst kings. That's right. they're confused and or jams the lift with the tool because while they were looking away

all the guys picked up all their equipment for the shift and jammed it down there uh down their clothes uh and or amd or jams the jams the lift uh and you know things are so bad the new guy immediately the second he gets the opportunity uh yeah shoutouts the new guy when the shot out the new guy just grabs that cattle prod and just nails that dude also the Just the one take of him coming in and shivering, like the new guy had his acting directors and was on it. Yes. I really appreciated that as a reminder of where Andor was when he came in.

Like, Andor was, Cassian was terrified. He was completely out of his element, completely lost. Like the most, just, just the lowest. we've ever seen him upon entering this prison and to see that reflected in the new prisoner that fear that like presumably having just undergone a shock treatment

you know as as he was coming in is just like it was it was I appreciated having that reminder of where everyone came from how everyone stepped forward onto that elevator the very first time what they were

feeling as they approached so And then right away, it's all on. Like, they shoot the new guy because he, when the elevator lurched, he was able to get hold of the cattle prod. You know, and then at that point, Kino gives the signal to attack. Everyone now has like what looked like really heavy gears whipping through the air at them as the guards begin shooting back. But crucially, they don't retreat behind their little door, which feels like it might have been the play. But they kind of can't believe what's happening.

They continue trying to open fire. But no, actually, they have faith in their thing, which is the floor. The floor. Before they think of anything else, they start yelling at the child, the high school dropout, who appears to have been assigned to this floor of the prison. I wanted to call that out specifically because so many of the guards throughout this prison look very young. They're babies. They look very, very young.

They don't know another era. All they know is imperial life. Right. There's been 15 years. That kid looks 20, maybe, maybe 20. He was five when the empire started, right? Yeah. So I feel like, yeah, there's something interesting happening there about who understands

that the world could be different. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We've talked a lot about generational stuff here. Yeah. Again, it's interesting to think about Leda in that way, Maud Mothema's kid. Doesn't know the world of the Republic. Not that the Republic was like a gleaming, you know, we see it in its decline in the pre-equals.

We see it in its decline in Clone Wars. That's what these things are about. But Chief Palpatine was a guy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You mean the guy from Nabu? Palpatine? Sheave.

I thought you said Chief Palpatine. I was like, what the fuck? New guy just dropped. New Star Wars, Gloft Shadows here. Uh-huh. Little known fact Actually he's like half Gungan It's big chief

Chief Palpatine It's funny because only now have I realized That Palpatine Because you've said it that way Rob Probably comes from Palatine Huh Right The the like Roman term

For like The authority Like the emperors Like it's like the emperor's Person in the distance I'm pretty sure it's Palatine Is that hill right It's one of the seven hills

of Rome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the Palatine is like the emperors. Isn't Palatine where Jesus got, got? So you mean Palestine? Hold on. So, okay. You are not going to be a Palatine. Palatine is one of the hills of Rome. Palestine, where Jesus did is the Bible tells us. Calvary. Calvary is where Jesus dies in the Bible. Or Golgotha, right? Gotha is the one I was...

Gold Gotha. Golgoth is what I was thinking Not Palatine Not Palatine Anyway Um Wow It's very funny

Anyway This is what happens to Catholic families One generation down It's true They don't remember the old Wait Pick it up

Pick it up This is how Jesus got got vibes From this scene So So they They call for the floor to be lit. They all get on the, they all get on the tables. And this was, I'm surprised how well this works.

Because the floor is just soaking with water, it's like permeate with water. The minute they hit the floors, they shored out a ton of the facility. Is this just a theory? This has to be hope. It just has to be hope. It just has to be, I hope it does it. Well, and we learned, like, I think. It's so good.

When do we see that it's leaking through? It's after the break. It's after this. It's after this. The realization that places like this are not built to a high spec, like, they just aren't. Like, in, like, in a... You pay more than you would for regular shit, and it's not as good. Yeah.

Like, good new construction, it'll take a while for a Florida to start leaking, but this, it seems like the minute water hits, it is in the underfloor and in the facility. And so, yeah, the minute they hit the, uh, the minute they hit the floor, they disarm themselves. effectively with their with their best weapon and at that point it is on and we turn this turns into a brief Eisenstein film it turns into attempted yep as they storm storm the guardhouse uh well and or finally gets up there he like spider monkeys up onto the catwalk like knocks one guard over grabs his gun shoots the other and the thing I love no mercy as he's preparing to breach he sees the other thinking about getting up boom done that that child working the education button done the button doesn't even work done the this is a table top character who put you know eight points into

blaster pistols and finally you're giving him a chance to roll for blaster pistols he's like i'm going to use it i put all these points in here i got this ability when i'm not going to use it and he then he's great like it's it's so funny to see him just get shot after shot instead stylish ways like it's nothing because this is what he does he is holding the he is in control he you remember al-dani what's he say on the way into al-dani he's like oh you're you should be standing over here and we had that discussion about like well how does he know that and my supposition was like he's kicked down doors before he's going in guns blazing before he has he knows how to do this for real for real the uh the other thing i love is by the way that so

when they reach into the control room for unit 5-2 and they start pulling all the boy this facility has way too many blasters per guard is also my take it feels like the guards like don't carry weapons with them they are going to arm themselves at whatever site they need to yeah so there's like a million guns for every single guard and if you just like get into that room you have an armory But the thing I love is the guns they're pulling out It looks to me like a blaster design We don't see a ton of in Star Wars But it's what we saw all over a new hope

It's I think these are the blaster pistols That like the rebel troops are using aboard The Tant of 4 But like this is sort of They've got that sort of Buck Rogers like tapered end That I feel like we didn't see a ton of in Star Wars After like that first movie But I do just love like

The ways that this looks so much like The original trilogy like just all the little ways the hairstyles the costuming the aesthetics and then little things like the models we're going to use for the weapons

you're totally right Rob I'm looking at the comparison now they're there if they're not they're not exactly the same there's more of a stock on the ones in the in the thing but the but the barrels are that similar silvered

thing which is very distinct in Star Wars they similarly have the sort of same type of general scope thing it's more like it's almost like this is a carbine and the ones that the folks have are like sawn off or have on the tanafore or have like just pistol versions of the same line.

The white and orange against the extremely stark white hallways and everything like it is definitely evoking evoking that my favorite detail as as you know prisoners are

climbing the elevators you know they're all climbing to the top they're all going higher like what what is it that that the homie nemick said climb everyone's climbing everyone's climbing um is that they run everyone runs past the boots like they don't need the boots they don't need the boots and like boots was a fake out the boots was a fake out it was such a fake out i was like oh shit they don't need the fucking boots like they the one thing once you're off your floor as the distinct as the distinction between, you know, guard and, I mean, amongst other things,

but a very strong visual representation of guard versus prisoner was these boots. It was like one of the main focuses of the introductory sequence to this prison. Like we see, you know, Zoom were like centered on the boots walking towards and or as he like lands on the prison itself. And they just run, they're inconsequential. They don't matter. It's great. Fucking great.

Absolutely. And like we get so many great beats of like we see the other units being liberated as usually their first warning something's up, being a hail of gunfire from the control room. Or an imperial like, hey, we're breaking out of prison. Being thrown through a door and off an elevator and landing splat zoinks right in front of them. The dude who runs for safety into the work unit shooting behind him and then just gets like riddled with lasers. Yeah, it's great. And they begin racing up the staircase toward the control room.

And it's incredible. They got Nathan Fielder here for an uncredited world. It's so funny. God. Allie, did you also have that note? I wrote, the reveal that that spooky-ass voice is being used by Nathan Fielder's fucking cousin. dot dot dot man dot dot dot dot we found the two most diffident guys

in Britain and we put them in charge of this Imperial prison facility and so yeah we see them I know this man's in some fucking weird ass forums like his spies are so rancid

he's so rancid I hate him And we see him, well, the other thing that's great is throughout all this, it is shocking how little the guards have any idea what's happening across the facility. They really don't. Their lack of surveillance extends to even what is happening with each other. No one knows that there's an attack. What they know is that there's been a water leak.

They think it's a leak. They think there's a water leak on level five. They've tried to contact other places. They're not getting a response. but they have no suspicion. I mean, in a way, the unknown is what fuels so much of the fear of the, you know, transmission that the guy gets, that the, you know, person in charge gives who, is he, he's the person in charge and he's also the voice behind it.

Like, this kid is the person. Okay, let's be clear. He's not a kid. He's not a kid. He looks like an early gray. He's a permanent kid. He does look like a. early grayer.

Yeah, permanent kid though. I think he's permanent kid status. I think some people are permanent children. Some jobs and ways of life never make you like an adult.

That's it. He's also like mid-30s. That's still a kid as far as like running a prison goes. He might be mid-40s. I think he might just be his face. He's still eligible to stood against that wall. Patrick Clepick is here as proof

of permanent kid. Shout out to Patrick Klepping. Patrick, watch more Andor I'm not getting your Andor takes enough Yeah, we need a So, I'm not listening to this The, so Little Nathan Fielder

Has figured out He's got that little display He does know something's up on five And he says like fry the whole level And we get I'm sure there's not a shout out It's just a line to be able to say But like it does remind me of when the dudes

On the executor At the Battle of Endor Realized that the A wing is hurtling Toward the bridge And bring up the shields Too late and they're dead we get that too where he's like just juiced the whole floor and that is

one circus and or walk in and little Nathan Fielder I'm never going to learn his name or the actor Little Nathan Fielder tries to get cute he thinks he's smart he tries he's going to do we're going to do a Socratic fucking dialogue

with these two prisoners who came in through the door when they're like turn it off excuse me what that could mean so many things define what define off and is it and or is it or is it Kino who just shoots the other dude in that moment It's Kino shout out to Kino

Kino also by the way it's on the way up here Where he again says one way out Come and fight And in my notes This is before the big speech I'm like that's it That's it That is it

One way out I had not realized the name of the episode Was one way out at that point in time Really? I had not You know what I'd written it down I'd written it down on top of my notes Because the way my notes work

because I got like 10, one way out. And we were doing Clone Wars, I put the little Jedi aphorism up top also normally. But so I'd written it down, but I had not keyed in on how important it was about to be. Because people kept tweeting one way out. It was like, bro, stop saying that. That's the whole like episode.

And then I was like, oh, wait, wait. Oh, wait, one way out. And then we get another great moment with Circus here as Andor tells him he's got to be the one. to tell the prisoners like that this is happening that they are that they are freer at least as free as they're going to get here and he can't he approaches that microphone and he doesn't have the words and or like tells me you've got to you've got to be the guy I saw on the floor that first day you've got to be him but for liberation you do this every day tell him what to do My name is Kilo-Loy. I'm the day-shift manager on Level 5. I'm speaking to you from the Command Center on Level 8. We are at this moment in control of the facility.

Is that the best you got? How long we hang on, how far we get, how many of us make it out, all of that is now up to us. We have deactivated every floor in the facility. All the floors are cold. Wherever you are, right now, get up, stop the work, get out of yourselves, take charge, and start climbing. They don't have enough guards, and they know it, if we wait until they figure that out. It'll be too late. We will never have a better chance than this.

And I would rather die trying to take them down than giving them what they want. We know they fried a hundred men on level two. We know that they are making up our sentences. As we go alone, we know that no one outside here knows what's happening. And now we know that when they say we are being released. We are being transferred to some other prison to go and die. And that ends today. There is one way out right now.

The building is ours. You need to run, climb, kill. You need to help each other. You see someone who's confused, someone who's lost. You get them moving and you keep them moving until we put this place behind us. There are 5,000 of us. If we can fight half as hard as we've been working, we will be home in no time. One way out!

One way out! One way out. One way out. One way out. One way out. One way out. He leaves the room saying one way out. They're chanting. Everyone's chanting.

He's chanting it. We get the night shift manager. I forget his name, but he's the first one to jump on the floor once they're told it's cold. And I love, God, I love the montage of we get the guards cowering. like beautifully composed, the guards hiding below the viewport in the blast door, hoping they don't get heard, and just clinging to their little stunsticks because they couldn't even get to their guns and just hoping they don't get found. Again, I wish, you know, I wish Disney Plus had greenlit, hey, if you want scenes

these guys being brutally ripped apart by the mob, like, we'll green light that. We should put it in. The boys in the command center don't get God even. I know. They don't shoot them. I was worried. They should have. I know I was too I was they should have killed them I mean shout out to being I guess the bigger person but also fuck those guys that was on the announcer every single day you got a Mussolini these guys like you're to make a point yeah yeah uh huh I I did want to I did want to call out the last thing that that circus that uh Kino says in the speech he repeats what and or said to him the day before which is we will never have a better

chance in this and I would rather die trying to take them down than giving them what they want. I love this recurring thing we have of people like repeating the guidance they've gotten from other people. I wanted to bring this up earlier when we're talking about the initial conversation at the start of this episode between Kino and and or as reminding me a lot of the conversation between Sinta and Vell and then consequently like Vell repeating what Senta told her to Mon Mothma

like this felt like a really nice moment in conversation with that of and or really imprinting on Kino this we are going to get out of here

or we are going to die trying either way like that is that is the only option there is only one way out And to see Circus, to see Kino, um, repeat that here was like it just, I think spoke to the development of their relationship with each other, uh,

so beautifully and just made these final moments all the more just absolutely heart-wrenching. Jock catch the doctor lost in the fucking sauce. Just to be like, you're not part of the crew like that. I mean, that's not his fault, you know, but. it's very funny yeah it was good he was just it looked like just disbelieved

he was like I can I would have never he doesn't have that you know he's not working with them on the floor every day he doesn't know that there is fundamentally and you know someone does almost get trampled at one point they do not stop to pick the dude up who falls over we don't see that happen anyway

so there is a there is chaos there is but it's interesting that he no one's past him the word of this you know what I mean he's just in it the doctor In the doctor's case, it's really interesting because especially the, the task that he has in terms of needing to be isolated from everybody else. Like, that is an example of that here. But back to Natalie's a point, especially about the like repetition of what Andor said to Kino. I was definitely thinking about the vow thing, but the way that it was used here felt more effective in the way that like it's kind of early in.

Kino is trying to say the speech and Andor sort of needs to egg him on to. to find the gravity. And like it feels like that is sort of the point at which in the speech that he's saying that he finds his own words. Like he takes the foundation of what Andor gave him and then like continues on to say like things that are even more impassioned. And it's like interesting that Val hasn't gotten to that point. Right.

She's still at, I'm quoting Sinta directly and not I've developed my own broader thing. Whereas there's the thing I was going to come back to you. he feels we talked about this a couple of times we talked about it on the previous Patreon Q&A episode

the place that anger has in Andor when he looks at the guards or the kind of commander guys in this room as he's speaking there is he is shaking

with anger as he speaks about the conditions that they've been living under when he talks about the people who had just been you know

100 people who just been killed overnight is furious and we are supposed to sympathize with that fear is to be proud of that fury that's not that is not anger leads to the dark side leaves the suffering etc this is like this is righteous anger and it's it's victory that he's letting himself feel this anger because he has for however long been suppressing that been not being forcing himself to not look at it right we got how often do we go back to Nemick. Nemick says, and again, Tony Gilroy actually found himself unintentionally maybe

quoting Nemick in an interview this week where he talked about how like, you know, the stuff that we're showing is not any particular, you know, philosophical or political, you know, a position. It's elemental. People can see it and they know it in their hearts. And what empire does and what the empire has done is trick you into not confronting it. What real empire does often is to trick you into feeling like it's inescapable or that you're being insane if you think you're imagining a world without it or to think that you're imagining things where they're not or that you're the only one who sees it. And in Keno's case, we're seeing that empire and that tyranny and that power can force you to suppress those feelings. And it's so good to see him letting those feelings

bubble up, all of that suppressed rage, all of that suppressed knowing, how many people has he seen died on the floor? How many people has he seen, you know, transported out? And now he knows there's a chance they didn't get transported out. They got transported into a different prison somewhere. How many times has he seen people suffer? And again, been complicit or in allegiance with their suffering and seeing him get to confront that and channel that into the sort of anger that you need to push through this, television. Like, it doesn't get, it does, it's, it's, this is why we, this is why visual media is so powerful a thing, because you can communicate something with, with tone of voice and with

the expression on your face and with good composition that it, it, it, it lives in a different way than it does on the page. And I like the page. I work in the page. But this is stuff that comes down to, like, what he does with his face in these scenes. Like, give the dude the nomination. You have to do the award, but I, you know, I haven't seen everything. At the very least.

The, well, and I do think, like, I don't know if it's Gilroy or just this, this writer's room more broadly, but, like, it feels so in dialogue with just what is unsatisfying about the Jedi. You know, because, like, so much of the Skywalker saga is, like, oh, it's about, like, how, you know, people fall from the path of the Jedi. They fall from the light side. But, you know, one of theses of this show is that, like, in part they fall, like, in the case of Anakin, because, like, Like, the creed doesn't answer where the reality people live in. It doesn't, it's dead to Anakin. This is what, this is what that, where we left off the Clone Wars is the horrible realization that Asoka confronts Anakin with is that I can see you're not a man of faith.

I can see, I can see your faith is dead. And so how could you lead me to it? Because, like, you're committed to this thing, hoping that it's going to save you, to help you, and it can't because it's actually costing you your soul. And we, and the other thing we get at, I mean, you know, this is up for what we're discussed in the latter third of this episode, is that sometimes you need anger and you need hate to make you run at somebody who's got a gun who's probably going to kill you. Like the deal that every single one of these guys makes is that, yes, in some ways, like one way or another,

they're going to be free of this prison. That's part of it. But the other part of it, and this is what Kino is getting at, is you know what? I will do whatever it takes. I do not care if I actually escape. I want some of these guys to die. I might be doomed here I might not win

these guys are not going to be around to savor the empire's victory they're going to be dead and that you know what and if that's going to be the little measure of justice I get then that's what I'm going to pursue to the end of my life

and like the Jedi can't mobilize like that they can't inspire that in people but like Andor is all about people hitting that moment of like you know when we get that shot of like andor rushing that those guards on the street where they they hanged his adoptive father you know there are there are moments where it is morally right

and righteous to be like i want to put i want to hit that guy with a club yep yep and so they do we get um i i love you know i really thought maybe they would hijack a ship as it came in for landing i was hoping maybe it was going to be like we've stolen the shuttle get aboard brothers no time for that they make their escape to the landing pads and they're just confronted with the ocean. And in a heartbreaking moment, Kino stops and realizes sardonically can't swim. There's so much chaos in this moment because first, you know, Cassie and Melshi are looking at each other and they're like, whatever happens now, we made it. I think he's like, or maybe he's saying that to him.

and, you know, like, people are starting to jump off. There's all this pushing and people are, you know, figuring out we just, it feels like everyone just ran up the stairs and opened the door onto the ocean. Like, yeah, I mean, that is what happened. A hundred feet below, essentially. And then in the, you know, kerfuffle, Andor looks over at Kino, and Kino's just looking at him with this wide-eyed just

stunned look on his face and just so dismayed just so dismayed and with the very quiet uh

admission at first I can't swim and or gets like pushed off with a group of people and jumps and there's no you know lingering look at Kino there's no like

you know camera sits on on on kino's face as we pull away and you know it's similar to how the heist went um in terms of how quickly we moved past the deaths of some very important major characters that we had spent time with up into that point we move so quickly past kino kino's admission and then in consequence you have to imagine he's he does not make it out of this um you know we never see that. I'm letting myself have it. I want you to let you just let yourself. In two years

a teaser, Kino. I'm saying. I, but there's so, that moment is so quick, but there is we do see the span of Keno's realization there as a person who has died

twice or maybe three times today, right? He wakes up in the morning and says I'm going to act as if I've already died. We see the floor activate him standing exactly in the middle of it one of the guys dies and he doesn't he's just staring at his feet and then the the moment where he like has to accept i'm seeing the sunlight for the first time in x amount of years and this is actually going to be the moment of my death is like the like communication of like at least i've done it look at this thing that i've done

for other people, but at the same time being like, I just like, I can't get out of my head keynote thinking about how many things that he did as a shift manager thinking to himself either I'm treating this person poorly so that they'll act accordingly so they can get out of here. Or he's sleeping at the end of the day and thinking, I'm going to get out. This is the thing that I need to do to secure my own life outside of this. and the like three seconds that we get of just his face realizing that is television

bro you got to just jump you got to just jump and trust people you told them get people moving if they can't someone's going to help someone's going to help you learn now is the moment I knew we wouldn't see him again this episode but I would kill for the final episode of season two to have

just one shot of him looking up at the monitors as the rebels succeed on whatever it is whatever the tea you know what I mean like sipping a hot cup of calf popping Pizos

whatever he needs to be doing just on some planet somewhere you know what I mean just alive what a moment kicking back but it's like just the way the show

has this feeling of it just sweeps you away from things you care about And it just keeps moving. I almost didn't read my most important note. I almost didn't read my most important note. This is earlier in the show. This is, when did I actually do this?

This is, I think it is, yeah, okay. It's after, I know when it is because I hear my notes in order. How's it looking out there? Shruggingly. Looks good. Then let's go new guy. Take the fucking swing. Then let's go.

Let's go. So this is right when things are kicking off. My note says, I got up and walked around my apartment and I turned out my lights and I came back and I sat back down and I turned off the monitor with my notes on it and I started to watch it with nothing

which I don't know that this is I don't know people I mean one I think y'all you all could have different processes than me right but if you haven't done this sort of analysis and like criticism or whatever it is we want to do right when I say what we're doing it's a different experience than getting to kick back and watch your favorite TV show. Right. You have a note. I have a ton of notes up. I'm taking notes. I'm Googling things. I'm checking to remind myself of references I want to make. I'm rewatching scenes. I'm writing down lines of dialogue. I'm hitting pause. I'm going back. All the lights in my apartment are on. I am not chilling. I am not watching a show I love the way that I watch shows I love. Right. Like I'm watching the Gundam Witch and Mercury right now. It's a joy. I get to just watch that show. I'm not on a podcast to talk about it right now. I'm enjoying it, right? I'm like sending theories out

with friends and blah, blah, blah, blah. And often, I'm not turning all the lights on my house off, you know, down to, to watch them. I'm like watching it with breakfast or whatever. But it's, but it's a different experience. And the beginning of this prison break was so compelling to me. I think it's the moment, it was the moment the, um, the electricity, the floor didn't work and seeing Keino's face, seeing circus's performance there. I let back 10 seconds, back 10 seconds back 10 seconds pause get up lights out lights out lights out grab a drink sit back down turn off the monitor play it deserves it right like it earned that for me i i don't know the last thing that i was doing a show like this about or game coverage when i was at waypoint

i don't know what else like breath of the wild do you know what i mean like what was it that made me go let me enjoy this in this other way let me abdicate my responsibility and take it in first. It's so rare and it like absolutely earned it. So what a sequence. What an entire middle of the episode. By the way, I am, I just one aside, because I'm just curious if this is just an effect they do with that moment by cutting all the sound sources or whether or whether there's an ambient sound in Arcina that I just haven't, I've missed. Because when the power goes down, when they, when they get little Nathan Fielder to like shut off the the hydro generations.

The hydro, yeah. It is, it's like that moment in the Titanic where the ship's lights go out and everyone realizes like this is, this is happening. This is like, whatever this is is, this is real. It's strange. It is scary. But like, when the power gets

cut, it is such a profound moment of like the darkness and just the dead silence. You can hear a pin. After all this action, it's like you can hear a pin drop in that moment. And I am wondering, like, is it just because it's been such a loud action sequence up to this point or is there just some like sound to narcena that we've

become like totally near to yeah just we don't hear it anymore it's his background yeah and the minute it's cut it is just profoundly unsettling because you know at this at the sudden absence i don't know but uh it was an incredible sequence and here's the thing i did not have high hopes for like how dramatic this prison sequence prison break was going to be. I thought like they're tough to, they're as dramatic as they are. They're kind of tough to make dramatic, especially if the entire thing is not about a prison break. You know,

like, you know, you look at things like, I don't know, the last castle, for instance, that James Gandalfini and Robert Redford movie. The entire focal point is a prison and a huge set and all this. Like, I didn't expect. that we would have something this dramatic or this cinematic waiting for us in the end. Like when the power cuts and all the doors open up before the prisoners

and suddenly you can see them seeing an expansive territory that they can run. You know, unimaginable that all the gates are down. It's incredible stuff. So with the prison break ending with everyone

swimming away from the station, And, you know, we will get to, we'll get the very end of the episode. But, boy, it sure looks a far way away as this escape unfolds. However, the other part of this episode that's really pivotal is things at the ISB and a little, a little luthin check-in in more ways than one. When we see the ISB, we just got a brief sequence with them as they begin laying, they're preparing their trap for Krieger's.

operation against Spellhouse and one immediately go ahead I love their little projector it looks like a it looks like an iron filing projector or something but it's like almost etch-a-sketch quality as things unfold

or like a little like transparent like laminated plastic that's being projected as they as they show this map of their little sting operation unfolding just again I love the aesthetics of displays and interfaces in the show. But, yeah, there's an odd little note here,

which is that they mustn't scare the quarry, that's for sure. But the guy with the mustache, who we saw making a deduction the other episode in a meeting, he has a little amendment to the plan, which doesn't even seem like a bad plan necessarily, but it's just odd. It pisses off Dedra. Because he's modifying her plan. You know, he notes that, well, we would always investigate a ship like that.

Maybe we should not do anything different and make a show of investigating the ship. My question is if that's what she would have done or if she had a different plan. If she's mad at him because she would have done things differently or if she's mad because perhaps that's exactly what she would do? I wonder if she is as suspicious of him as I was or if she is or if she is or if she's. She is like the same thing as last time. Remember we were talking about like her assistant jumping up and saying the thing about connecting Andor because of the being shaven. And that fear, again, of being lapped, that constant competition in the ISB. If only there were a man who understood her and wants what she wants.

You know what? All that, that's why we didn't see her the rest of the episode is she was placing a call to the Bureau of Measuring Things. So the next thing we see We get a little aside Clayah notes that there is some sort of source Or collaborator that has left them Markings that indicate a high stakes meeting And she does not want Luthan to go

She tells him actually take the Fondor get to safety Let me take care of it Which is interesting, it indicates that Is their standard operating procedure whenever there's something high stakes, one of them, predominantly Luthan, pulls up stakes and gets somewhere where, like, if there's going to be nowhere

to come back to on Gorson, he's just gone, and he comes back down when the all clear sounded. But either way, Clayo wants to take the meeting. Luton, very philosophical. You know, if it's a trap, then we've already lost,

but he's eager to take this meeting. If we die, we die. Like, it's already... Do you think it's a little on the nose is it the way they communicate? with their mole is that he marks up or removes a railing a rail it's like your name is rail oh my god you can't do that she says there was a mark on the fountain he goes could be anything she goes that's what i thought so i went to the stairs which is like that's their secondary thing the rail was

gone like stop it no you should have nothing the word rail is your name you can't leave a signal via rails Allie is Like very skeptical Of my connection You don't put that sound in people's brains That's his name That's his name But it's also cute

It's cute to make it Because it's his name Oh because you mean his real name is Rail Averro Yes exactly Oh I didn't You know I don't want to forget this I actually found

You know there's a shooting script for things Which is what like they used day of production But then there's the script that's filed. I actually found the script that was filed for this episode. And during Lutheran's major speech, the original text actually read what he sacrificed, calm, kindness, kinship, love, two of my arms, my basilisk features. I give him an all-chance of inner peace, which you know is very important to Jedi like me. I've made my mind a sunless place. I share my dreams with force ghosts like that in my mentor.

Count Duku You know, I can see why they cut this down Yeah Yeah, yeah But There's also the specific note About letting the western The southwestern accent

slip out just a little bit Yes I don't know why they didn't shoot it that way But Grits I gave up my grits Riding my horse I gave it up

All for the rebellion So My ranch I gave him My 10-gallon hat My Ford F-150 So My Chevy Silverado

I gave it up My lasso My silver steed My smoker This saddle hasn't come down From the wall in years these boots I haven't walked

the galaxy for decades the elevator door opens up he's wearing a cowboy hat I would shit I would shit and piss See See this is what we're dealing with So

Anyway Yeah after the prison brick He takes the meeting He's going to go to the meeting So we see it through read the ISB agent Lonnie, we see it through his eyes as he goes into

Oh, it's such a good idea to do it this way. It's such a good idea. Of Corrissan places that, you know, are familiar trust from places from things like clone wars. You know, it's clearly he's at the lower levels. He's in places where it barely even looks like streets.

It just looks like infrastructure for the upper city. And there are aliens down here. Oh, yeah. I'll point out, right? Again, I think he knows what he wants to do. There isn't the space to do it in these episodes to do it well. Also, it just, it feels like Pure Blade Runner vibes too.

Just down there, but like in the, in the grimy way, not the neon way, but the way that everything feels rickety and like it's about to fall apart in, in that world. J.F. Sebastian's mostly abandoned water soaked apartment. Exactly. It feels like moldy and mildewy and like wet and damp and gross. And it's not like stylized green neon. cool cybersone it's like no we're in the underbelly of a metropolis and where the sun doesn't shine here like it is it is an eternal night down here and I love the look I love the look

and like he gets a more of this elevator that like nobody takes this elevator it doesn't it doesn't look like but he feels he feels around in the in the rusted grime up above the passenger compartment for a headset, he puts it in, and Luthin is in his ear and ours. And the camera's so close on him for all of this. You can feel, you can smell the sweat on him in this, like it is so claustrophobic, this entire elevator ride. And Luton feels so detached, like the voice of a cruel god in a lot of ways. As he, and this thing I couldn't figure out. Like, I could not figure out what the relationship was. It was this guy he was blackmailing because when he eludes the fact that like, hey, I heard you had a daughter. Congratulations. Is it like

a blackmailer torturing you with the knowledge of like these are the things that I can destroy or ruin? Is it just, it was ambiguously like it's just pure cruelty. Is it an attempt to like calm him down and get him focused on other things? But like it's such a loaded thing to bring up. And I was not sure until they make it clear in a moment what the score is what Luthon was doing with this guy. And what Lani is telling him is he tells him what Dedra and Dedra's deductions. And Luton always playing close to the vest is like Dedra doesn't know what she's talking.

Dedra's wasting time. And we were invited to Aldani. But we didn't go. Like really masking how close to the Mark Dedra has actually come with this whole situation. But, you know, the thing he really wants to get to is, why are you here? Yeah. And, you know, and Lonnie's answer, he thinks that the really urgent thing is that Krieger is walking into this trap. He thinks that, you know, the urgent thing why he's here is that Krieger's spellhouse raid is compromised.

and Luthan has to sound the warning and man, now this show is doing the Americans, right? This is some espionage shit. Which it shares staff with, we should note, right? That there are people in this writer's room who worked on the Americans. And boy, you can feel it when Luton immediately sees

what the issue with this warning is. It's 50 men. You're worth more than that. What better way to reassure the ISB there's no leak in security than sacrificing Krieger. I'm doing this for you as much as anything.

And then he returns to the, but why are you really here? Why are you really here? Yeah. And that gets in that conversation, the real conversation begins as the elevator door opens and we get a look at Luthen

looking like Darth Vader on Cloud City standing there with a billowing cloak on this catwalk in the darkness of the perpetual night. And again, here is the moment where they purposefully evoke

Star Wars. it's so you know we've talked about this a lot there's not a lot of stormtroopers in this show there have not been lightsabers in this show John Williams's score or anything like it absent right and that's all Rogue One has stuff that's trying to be in the John Williams space musically

Rogue one is filled with stormtroopers not a lot of aliens in the show it's not it is in the world of Star Wars but it's not shot like Star Wars is they're not always pulling on that stuff that's motherfucking Darth Vader you know what I mean they're doing it and and it is already when you when you have someone step out of an elevator

or stand in an elevator and the doors open and what you reveal is columns and a man with a billowing cape uh who is talking the way that that scars guard can deliver stuff you are calling your shot you're pointing at the stance you're saying i'm going to hit a home run i want to put the eight ball in the corner pocket and when you do that you raise the bar on yourself, you were saying, this is going to be a big one. And it, you know, when you do that, you have to then clear the bar you've just said. You have to cash that check. And I was, I was so worried when the door opened that they were about to like, swerve bad and that he wasn't going to be able to deliver it because the stage is so perfectly set. And he knocked

it out the park. It's an unbelievable sequence. I also, I also want to, I also want to point out new Luthan voice just dropped. Oh, is it a new one? It feels more maybe like Scars Guard, maybe his natural accent, or it feels more, like, less American than some of what Luton sounded before. I mean, Luton has a lot of different affectations

that he adds to his voice, but in this one, it felt a little bit more um like dialectical to me than then then just kind of like a tone or a man a manner of speaking like it felt it it felt like there was more of of sort of scars guards natural accent maybe in there sure well but i do think the affect thing though is the really crucial thing here too because even with andor i think this is actually close to the voice he uses with andor when he pulls him off ferrics but here's the difference difference there's no warmth in this aspect There is with Andor, I get where you're coming from.

Like, you and I both, we share this thing, which is this hatred of the empire of these people. Here, so this is what it is to run a double agent, right? It is a psychologically grueling job. They will want out. They will, and you will have to tell them that at some point maybe they will get out. You have to have them thinking, like, maybe there's a way to navigate this, but, like, ultimately, you have to stay where you are. This is a huge theme in the Americans. and season one somebody realizes that

you're never going to stop running me like you're never going to let me out of this because you'll never get someone in the place where I am and this is where the conversation with Lonnie is going and Luton can't be compassionate it's just he has hard truths to speak here like Lonnie is both

like he is he is trapped and this is what he gets that he says it outright yeah he says you are trapped Lonnie and we get back story of like you know he asks what what does Lonnie think is going to happen what are you can tell the ISB and Lonnie has this idea

of my wife comes from money I'll go like work in her family business and like I got a daughter yeah I'm sick my doctor I'll get a doctor's note you know and Luthen calls him on he says even as you say the words you know it's impossible and he says

and this bit you love your daughter Krieger's men will be dying to make sure she has a father. You're trapped, Lonnie. It gives me, it brings me no pleasure to say it. Luthan knew the whole time that this, like, Luton, the very first thing

Luton says to, Luton says to Lani is, how's your daughter? And he's like, how did you know about that? It's like, well, it's been a year. A lot happens in a year. Also, the fact that it's been a year since they've talked is so much time. DeCover agent, they can't, every time they do it,

it's the riskiest thing they can possibly do. But you're right, Natalie, like, Luton is probably known that the arrival of the daughter would start a timer for when this guy thinks, like, I just can't run these risks anymore, to hell with the vow. And, like, he has been set up and waiting for this conversation to basically, like, here's your come to Jesus talk. Like, there's no, like, there's no, like, there's no retreating from this.

And we get, we even get a timeline. They've invested six years in cultivating this guy's career at the ISB. And as Luton points out, we fed him intel. People died to make him credible And to make him excel at the ISB And I do think Like, you know, to Lonnie's credit as a character He doesn't want 50 people dying for him

He really does not want Krieger's guys To walk into a massacre And it's horrible And that's the other thing The thing that Luton is doing here is also By the way it is on you Like people are dying So that your seeker can stay safe

Like what is your life worth More than 50 men and you have to live with that you're going to go home to your family and like sleep and go on your life and it's because at least 50 people today maybe hundreds over the course these last six

years have died to make it possible for him to stay in this position and again this is like this is another classic thing about intelligence work right is the thing of it is actually fairly if it's not if it's not literally

common it is a classic storytelling trope of the genre that the spy knows the thing is coming but they have to let it happen for or else they lose something um uh there's a conversation again in the the i'm in the abnormal mapping discord channel so the folks over at abnormal mapping who do great shows um uh and people were talking about how like um the allies had cracked the enigma machine in world war two and they nevertheless let some fleets uh this is worm in in that channel and actually give credit noting that the allies let certain fleets get hit, even though they'd crack the codes on them, because having those fleets get hit is a loss, but it's not as big of a loss as that

the enigma machine, you know, stopping being used, where you end up losing access to much bigger things around troop movement, around the deployment of weapons and, you know, logistics decisions where you could do real damage. and so that is that is a pretty big one another thing that came up was the conversive that it's not 100% clear if this is true or if this is apocryphal and me having now dug into it a little bit what happened in coventry whether or not coventry being bombed was was a thing that the bridge intelligence yeah that is i think that is where historians are at now but but again that type of thing is a pretty constant part of

this style of intelligence work. And so, yeah, of course this happens, right? And of course this is the way someone like Luton has to play it. And he gives his big spiel about why it is that he has to be the one to do this. Yeah. Well, in response to a very, a very short-sighted question. Yeah, Lani needs to at least know this one thing. He needs to know that Luton feels something and demands all Lani can see is his sacrifices.

Right. And he asks, and all he sees in his handler is somebody who's taking and giving up nothing. And boy, does he get set straight in this exchange. And what do you sacrifice? Calm. Kindness, kinship. Love. I've given up all chance at inner peace.

I made my mind a sunless face. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there's only one conclusion. I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight that set me on a path from which there's no escape.

I yearn to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost, and by the time I looked down, there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my, what is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burned my decency for someone else's future. I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. Now the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience

or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything! You'll stay with me, Lonnie. I need all the heroes I can get. He's a Jedi. He's a fucking Jedi. He is a Jedi.

He is a Jedi. He's, I might, yes. Oh, my God, he's a Jedi is what I have written here. I'm sorry, but if you're talking inner peace, if you're talking inner peace, you're a Jedi. I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight. It's the inversion of everything Yoda tries to teach to Luke. Like, like, and that's the,

I yearn to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost. And by the time I look down, there's no longer any ground beneath my feet. I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. Condemned. I burned my life. I burned my life to make a sunrise I know I'll never see. I wake up every day! Sorry, that was Adam Driver.

I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago, for which there's only one solution. I just every single line in this in this monologue is I share my dreams with ghosts I share my dreams with fucking ghosts so there's an alternative okay here's the one alternative which I've also seen floated from from a couple people he could be a separatist he could be a separatist he could be one of the true believers and that's unsatisfying okay well it's not as satisfying as he's a Jedi I mean it's not as satisfying as he's he's he's Ray Alvaros who was Duku's a

Well, no, but it's just like in the world of Star Wars, like separatist ideology is nothing. Like him giving up. Well, not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet it isn't, but could not, could not the greatest trick and or ever pulls being retroactively giving the separatist true believers a voice in, in Selen Starz Scar's guard and letting him, the speech that he gives where he says, you weren't there, you don't understand it, this thing was sick. the republic was always sick we had to leave it

this is why you know and we know that Saul Guerrera hates a separatist so he could never tell that to Saul but I increasingly genuinely I'm starting to think he's a Jedi I really am the show may also never tell just like we'll never fully know like I'd be fine with that right

we'll never know of Skeen like what did like what was the truth to Skeen that dies the best yes and but like but the thing is like how did we forget this how did we as a how did how did we as a

culture forget that it's often better to not know that for 30 for 30 because guess what happens when you fuck around you find out you find out but this is what I mean is that like for 30 years when you find out when you find out you yeah when you find out you yeah in 30 years we could also be like do you think that rail was a Jedi oh no he wasn't he was did that that's so much more powerful than brown it's my lightsaber like it is it's But you know that if the lightsaber came out, we'd all be like, yo. But I'll pop for a year. I'll be like, yo, it was sick when he did that.

But if 20 years from now, I'm still like, I don't know. He could have been one. Yeah. You got to go for the long game. On the other hand, when his resistance cell gets blown and the stormtroopers come for him and he fires up a lightsaber, I'll be there. But the thing is, is this the real long con that Tony's playing on us is. I, yeah, I've been wondering that.

What do you think? Well, just like, because I feel like I'm the person who hasn't been able to, like, kill the Disney exec in their head. And the fact that I'm walking into the Luton as a Jedi trap makes me think, like, there's something at the other end there. Like, I'm the one who's wrong. Well, and my thinking could be, do we get the rail prequel? We got the Andor prequel. do we get whatever it happened 20 years ago

15 years ago and it's a different actor probably there's other stars cards out no make it him make it him make it him make it him make it him make it him make it him he could just dress off so good he's just so good he's just so good oh god I would love that

so much there's so many prequels I want out of the show like there's so like every there's so many I want to see well Disney is thrilled to hear that well that's the actually the note from the Tony Gilroy

interview that Austin keeps mentioning there are a few out there just start reading all of them just Google Tony Gilroy interview read them all they're all good then this one is

specifically the one from Brian hate at rolyso.com and they mentioned that this was supposed to be five seasons

and they cut it back down to two and he talks about how it's like it would kill me to be five seasons it would have killed me I couldn't do it

is his argument for why they cut it to two. Sure, but also. We don't deserve it. You can executive produce five seasons, bro. You don't need to be on location. So,

just one, Lauren, I think the bit, like, by the time I look down, there's no longer any ground beneath my feet, I wonder, is this, like, is this what,

the experience of being a Jedi who's away from the temple and away from the order when Order 66 goes out and, like, just overnight. Like, you're just out there doing Jedi shit.

away from the war. You're just doing general, like, keeping the peace, like, you know, fighting injustice wherever it may be. And then it's like Jedi are outlawed. Crime is legal. God, it's so good if he is one because because

I can't believe they did this to us. I can't fucking believe. They're Jedi filled us. So, but like, you know who could have been doing this? Obi-Wan, Kenobi and Yoda. And they could have been doing this either. Like, even if he isn't a Jedi, this is what didn't have it in them to do.

This is why it's good no matter what. It's win-win. You know, in the same way that Daveo walked in and he was going to win one way or another, Tony is going to win. Because if he's a Jedi, then we have the example, the evidence that a Jedi could have done more than what we saw our prize Jedi go off and do. And if he doesn't, and if he isn't won, then what we have is evidence that the Jedi didn't have it in them.

They couldn't do it. Yeah. And that we don't have to rely on them as the, as the, peacekeepers and and saviors and military of the galaxy like they are not they do not have to fulfill they are limited by i mean no matter what it's clear that the that those rules couldn't have gotten us there we needed the anger we needed the person who was willing to or the argument being made is you need a luthan right you need someone who's willing to do the dirt who's willing to use the enemies you know weapons against them who's willing to take on the sacrifice to

this is what the sacrifice really is you know does sacrifice was he went to live on Swamp World for 20 years. And be a frog. Obi-1 went to go cut up fish on Tatouine or whatever. Which, like, where did those fish even come from in that sequence? Was it fish? Am I misremembering this? Is that what he does?

I need to watch it. You still... I'm sorry. It's okay. Andrews's coming out. We shifted up the whole thing, so it's like, what are you going to do? You were going to be so tight when you watch what you want to be? You'll know what I watch it.

Like, you'll know what I've watched it. Because, Rob, did you watch it? I haven't watched it either yet. I think Natalie are going to hold hands and jump off the waterfall around the same time. Because, like, Andor is going to finish. And, like, between Christmas and Thanksgiving, I'll be like, I miss new Star Wars show. Yeah. Time to watch Obi-Wan.

I'll bet this will be cool. And I have been told it is not cool. But I'll be like, I don't care. That's exactly what I'm the second Andor finishes, I'm binging all of Obi-Wan in, like, a day. Like, I almost did it yesterday after I finished yesterday's episode of Andor, I was like, I got a night, I'm going to do it.

And then I was like, do I want, because I know if I watch it now, the next time we record, I am going to be seething. I'm going, like, there is, I will not be able to, I can't, I can't. There's stuff in there. There's some stuff in there that hits. There's some stuff in there

that hits, but it's not, it's, you know what? I'm sure I'll find out. I'm sure I'll find tasty treat for myself. Right. Of course, of course, of course. Hayden's in it. You know what I mean? You're going to find moments. But we're going to have, you're going to have to watch it after this and I don't. Oh yeah, 100%. Well, I mean, and this is, this is the thing. Like, it's not because this is the, this is, the minute this episode finished, I was saying there, I was like, this is the happiest I've ever been to see a Star Wars thing since I discovered

the original trilogy as a kid on VHS and like was like, holy shit, this is amazing. I love this. like being into Star Wars has not felt this way since like the things that made me a Star Wars fan and so at the end of this episode I was like well this is this is rare air we're breathing right this is like this is going to be a thing we chase now for another 20 years again you know me I mean you know maybe there are people again shout us to the people who've been spreading the word about the show so maybe there are lots of people now who are listening who don't who have not followed us here from Waypoint or Friends at the Table or some other stuff that we, you know what I mean,

from Be Good and Rewatch it. Maybe you don't know us like that. I don't, I don't have that fandom in me in the way that is very ascendant right now, right? Um, you know, I grew up loving Marvel comics and then the, I burned out on the MCU stuff before phase two even finished, right? Like I just couldn't, it, it is,

it is abrasive to me to go against, you know how often I'm out here talking about screen rant being bad, right like that model of fandom hurts me it is it is psychologically hard for me to be in that mode go with god not telling you you can't have your fun we all have our things that are our things like i'm not you know but star wars it hit me when in in uh rise of skywalker is that the name of that movie right that's the actual name rise of skywalker towards the end of that film which you know i saw that movie in a theater of people on if not opening night the night or two afterwards went with my friend sean we went to see it

people were openly like laughing at the movie being bad the the big reveal of of raise uh uh you know parentage everyone booed the screen like it was just a disaster of a in a way cathartic right to be there with people who also did not like it and were like audibly visibly mad at it um but i left you know from that catharsis there was the there was a uh a decline into melancholy because i realized Star Wars, and the story of the Skywalker saga, a terrible phrase that I do not like, so limiting it was of what Star Wars could be, and what those films could have been if they had decided to separate themselves from the Skywalker's, it hit me that there had been one chance. This was the end of that story. And there was one chance for them to hit the landing on it. And this is the only thing that I'm carrying from when I'm a child anymore. It's the only thing that I carry with me from when I was seven in the same way. It's like that and the Philadelphia Eagles, and this year, the Philadelphia Eagles are pretty good, but on off years, I tune out halfway through the season because, you know, it's not, it's not the thing. And there's nothing else I carry in that way, right?

There aren't bands that I loved when I was 12 that I still love in the same way. My musical tastes have changed. I listen to other stuff. There is, again, you would think Marvel, you would think, you know, some video games somewhere where my fandom, Final Fantasy, like, I'll play a Final Fantasy game, but I don't hold it the way I held it in high school. You know what I mean? There is nothing like hearing the John William's score hit and see, you know, at the end of Last Jedi when Luke fades away. Like I cried in the theater, dog.

Like, and that isn't, I wasn't like, yeah, that was so moving. It was like, no, it's in me in that way. It had me like that. And so when I left Rise of Skywalker and it hit me that like, oh, they really had one chance to stick the landing and they didn't. And this is, it's rare to have the thing with you that you'd love. loved your whole life in that way. And there's good reasons why you put things up. I'm not saying we should cling to those things.

It's good to move on and try new things and find adult taste. All that's true. But it's nice to have one or two things that you carry with you. And so that is, contextually, that is how Andor has slotted in, right? It is opened a door I thought was long, closed, locked, and bricked up. So shout-outs to the crew.

We haven't said it out loud. But again, these episodes were written. This whole arc was written by Bo Willemann. and Toby Haynes. We say Gilroy's name because he's the showrunner. He ran the writer's room. He's an important figure over across it. He directs, I think he directed the first three episodes, and he's directing the next two. So obviously, a very big determinant in terms of what the show has been. And obviously, we don't say the names of the people who do the costuming. We don't say the names the people who are doing the editing. I think we actually looked up one editor once. We talk a lot about

actors. We talk a lot about the showrunner, et cetera. But it's bigger than that. And it's, and everybody involved like to me that's the stakes of the thing that it has been so overwhelmingly positive is to recover something I thought was lost and so you know that's it's hitting in that that way for me so shout outs well and like a scene like this kind of puts a point on it because like all rise of Skywalker and really all the Abrams sequel trilogy had to offer was like hey remember that thing I'm going to show it to you again but different bigger I'm going to call back to it in the most cloying way possible. And here,

we have a really pointed, but not like noisy, not obnoxious, like, mirroring of Vader and Luke in Cloud City. We have here, not necessarily a dark Jedi, but, like, if he is a Jedi,

he is one who feels, like, by his own faith, he is, he is convicted and damned by his actions. And he's, And he, instead of, and he's calling someone else, not to join, join him, but to stay with him. You can't leave. You are trapped. I have you in my power. It like shrugs off, if he is a Jedi, which again, who knows, it shrugs off the word dark Jedi.

It shrugs off the word gray Jedi. He is a person who has a goal and is pursuing it. It is not operating inside. And I can, it's not me, but I can kind of understand the person who has looked to the force as a fictional, but, but, but, but, resonant thing who would hate that, who would hate the idea of something that isn't even a decon, it isn't even last Jedi deconstruction mode. He's like, no, no, no, we're just not, we're not engaging with the force. I don't got to deconstruct it. It's not real. I'm not engaging with it in that way. I'm engaging with the Jedi as an institution. I'm only to, I'm thinking

about that stuff. I'm not thinking about the mysticism and the, and the metaphor and the, and the metaphysics. So I can get being a person who might like, you know, bristle against it, if that's the case but it rules um and i think the the thing he says at the end you know you'll stay with me lani i need all the heroes i can get it did immediately remind me of so there's a couple there's a pivotal scene in um the insider where uh russell crow's character is his like there's the story of a whistleblower whose life is destroyed by the fact that he blows the whistle on the firm he worked at and he goes to 60 minutes and they do not right do right by him they do not cover his back the way he expected he is not prepared for reprisals and he loses everything his family he's

estranged from his family uh is he sort of falls into not poverty but he goes from being a very rich man to a guy making making ends meet on a teacher salary but there's moment where it always comes too much for him and appears that he is having a crisis and a spiral that could end in an episode of self-harm and alpuccino's character playing the 60 Minutes reporter Lowell Bergman gets on the phone call because he knows like the dark places and he calls him

and they have this long conversation as he basically tries to talk him off the ledge but at the end you know he tells him you know I need you man like I don't have many heroes left and this reminded me of that because in a weird way like in some ways you'd say this is

this is rail looking at this as I need all the heroes I can get in the instrumental sense but I also see it in that other sense of

this is not a world where I have many heroes left you are one of them what you are doing is admirable and it fires me to continue making the sacrifices that I make yeah

100% I hadn't even thought about it that way but it is again it is it is the thing that Kino says, right? Like, if you see someone fall, pick them up and keep them moving, right? And that's about, we got to all be doing it. We all have to be moving towards the exit one way out, all of us together.

It works if, I think they say explicitly at one point, like, it only works if we all do it. Like, we are, we are bigger than them. There's more of us than them, but it only works if we're all in it together and fighting together. And again, there is something happening here because the, think about the scene with, with Davo, Davo, Davo, Davo, and he says to Montmothma, our position sometimes makes decisions for us, wouldn't you say, Senator. And he's not wrong, right? There are, the, the world culture, society determines us, right? In many ways, or at least it determines and pressures, it limits us and pressures us. It sets up the boundaries of what acceptable action are. Um, as, as, as, as, as our

friends over on game study study buddies often say at the end of every episode, uh, uh, the social is predicated on its exclusions. Um, uh, who gets to go where, who is disallowed? What types of behavior are criminalized? What types of sexual actions are, are determined to be perverse or deviant, right? All of this stuff shifts us and, and forces us down pathways. But, it's people who make those decisions and we're people. And the thing that this show seems to be saying back to Devo is our position can determine what types of decisions are easy for us to make, but there's other decisions to make too. And what Luther is saying is we can make those sacrifices. Lutheran is saying, I am an example of making those sacrifices and deciding to make the other

decision. Whatever his position was, you know, was to, I mean, it's, it is. It is. Marx again, men make their own history. This is from the 18th premier of Louis Napoleon. He says towards the beginning of that, that men make their own history, but they do not make it just as they please. They don't make it under circumstances that they chose. They inherit those circumstances, the ones given to them from the past. The dead generations weigh like a nightmare on the brains of the living, Marx says. You know, when he is saying is that in this moment, the revolution that he is kind of covering as a journalist and that he's writing him out and analyzing, and in general, the revolutions that he has studied

borrow from and are shaped by a sort of discursive and material history of previous revolutions, right? All of what came before almost determines the limits of the revolution of the moment. right. You're stuck in past ideology. You're stuck in past arguments. You're fighting old fights instead of confronting new ones. You know, you're wearing the costumes of old revolutionaries. You're limited by what the previous vision of what good was. And this is, in a way, what Lutheran is against, right? And this is part of what the Jedi read kind of works for me because he's trying to do what Marx says at the end or towards the end of this section. What he says, which is like, I'm trying to remember exactly what he says. He's something basically like the revolution of this century can't draw its poetry from the past. It has to look to the future. It has to draw its poetry from the future. It has to wear the costume of the next revolutionary. You know, whatever happened in the past, whatever the last revolution that pushed us out of feudalism needed, now today we have to put the past behind us and develop new things. And so again, in this moment where we know the Jedi failed or we know the separatists failed, where we've had that great talk with Saul, outlining all these other old revolutionaries who come from these different sparring positions, you got to bury the dead. You need to move forward. And I think that this is like, you have to address the fact that you're being shaped and then shape back. Fundamentally, we can make that change. And it is so interesting to see Lutheran be the person who cruel. And coolly and coldly insists you got to fucking keep making the choice. You don't get to cut yourself out of this. If our lives are pressured and limited by outside forces, guess what, motherfucker?

I'm a force. I'm going to be the person who pushes you in that direction. Let me just leave this with the scene. Luton also says he took a vow, right? We took a vow. I mean, yeah, absolutely. We took a vow. Who took, like, I had always assumed that, like, you know, they sort of, like, are bound to Luthin.

They all collectively took a vow. But now I'm really curious, what happened years ago that all these people, like, take a vow to do this stuff? Luthen coming 2026. No, but, you know, what's that scene? What's the, right? What is the vow? Who is it to? And is there a person they all took a vow, too, or some sort of, like, who gave the thing that were taking a bite?

It's got to be to each other. It's got to be a collective, like, it has to be some sort of collective, you know, binding thing. But I'm so curious who's in that first ring. Me too. I mean, right now we have Monmothma, Belle. Val, Lonnie. Luton. Clata, presumably.

Luthen, yeah. Lutha. I am so curious about, like, where this conspiracy begins and who is all there. Give us five seasons. The way this. I love the way. The book of Luthon. I love the way he, he just tells Lonnie, you'll stay, you'll stay with me.

Like there's no, so are you, like it is, you'll stay with me. You'll stay with me, Lonnie. And maybe he's wrong. Maybe Lonnie's going to go make a huge mistake, right? And it could go bad for Luton, right? But I don't know. I don't know. Also, rip to Anta Krieger, I guess.

It's going to go bad and spell out. I know. I know. I'm stressed for him. is saw i'm not saw was like that guy's a dipshit and you know what happens to dipsets they get god uh here's another star wars star wars dot com uh and or trivia uh here from episode nine nobody's listening they mention that um i'm gonna get the exact thing right here uh anto creger i keep saying anton it's anto creaker's missing pilot is said to be on his way to kaffrean the

ring of Catherine Colony was originally seen in Rogue One, a Star Wars story, as a location where we first meet Cassie and Andor. When he's like running around that city and shoots that guy in the back and that's how we meet Cass, that's Catherine, where Anto Krieger's pilot was supposed to be going to. So we may end up getting that place on screen at some point. We may end up getting Cass going to Catherine and dealing with whatever the fallout of Krieger's crew getting fucked up is. Like, I don't know. We'll see. Vell's got to find Cassian. Bell's on a mission.

I guess. What does she even? She's chilling on Corosol being a rich girl right now? Yeah. But that's what her, that's what Mon told her. That's not, that's not her directives from Clay and Luton. Directives from Clay and Luton. Okay. So what do we think, Go find cast? What do we think next episode is? I have no idea because this ends with Melchie and Cassian running across this like plateau somewhere ashore as you see the search lights behind them

the search helicopters or speeders, whatever. But it does not, like, they have escaped this prison, but like the whole planet might be a prison. I do not know what they have escaped too, which means I do not know how we bridge from this to and or becoming Rebel Super Spy. I think, okay, here we go.

I think it's just montage moments up top, right? And it's, it's him and, Melchie, Melchie? Melchie? Melfi, Melchie's from the Sopranas. Dr. Melchie. Like, you know, running down on some shit, getting guns, getting it, you know. All of the sick Yamos beat is playing. Right, because where are they going, Rob? Back to Nyamos to get that money.

To get that money. To get the money. And while there, he checks he calls home. He calls home because he can't help himself. He calls home and homes. says, oh, you got to get, Brasso says, you got to get back. You got to come back immediately. And Melchie's like, no, we can't go back there. He goes back there, and then he saves the day, and Sinta doesn't kill him.

And he's like, I'll take the vow. And then take, that's the next two episodes. And he takes the vow at the end of the second episode. That's a good call. Yes, but I feel like Austenoff handily made a different prediction for how, like, a return to Farrix or trying to rescue Bix might go. and how that might sort of cut the tethers between Andor in his old life and the guy we meet later in his Star Wars career. So I like, I love the team up thing where it's like, I'm coming in and sent to realizing they're going to capture him unless we throw in and gets on the phone. It's like, you've got to send me your best.

Send me Saw Guerrera's boys. And Saa Guerrera comes in and actually all sorts of shit goes wild. would love that. I do have a suspicion that things on Farrex are going to end very, very sadly. Oh, I mean, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We're going to get one more scene with him and Marva, right?

Remember, I said this episodes ago, I was like, there's got to be one more episode. What if he calls Marva and then Deirdreve picks up the phone? It's like, hello. Oh. Hello, Cassie and Andor. Your mother is thin.

Because here's the thing, we have to have, we don't have to. But if there is, there could be a scene where Cass and Deidre meet or see each other from across the way and realize that they're enemies for life. I feel like it's, right. Can you explain this for people who have not listened to our Clone Wars episodes? Absolutely. So General Grievous, if you didn't know, General Grievous is in Clone Wars like a lot. And the whole bit about General Grievous being in Clone Wars is that he has lost. of encounters with with Anakin but never face to face because of one line in Revenge of the Sith, which Grievous says, you know, I thought that you would be, what did the Grievous say again? I remember what Anikin says back to him. I thought you'd be taller.

Oh, Anakin says back. Anikin says back to him. I thought you'd be taller, right? I believe that's true He says Grievous all as a fuck though I mean we all know I know he's just trying to alpha him He's just trying to alpha him

Yeah But But so that's the whole bit It's basically all of Clone Wars They have these like really close encounters Where they're like talking to each other on holocrons Or they just miss each other But they never actually meet face to face

Because the first time they have They meet face to face Has to be in Revenge of the Sith So but just extrapolate to Extrapolator. Is Anakin dumb as hell? I mean. I mean, you watch the show.

I mean. He does say you're shorter than expected to grievous. He says you're short. Grievous is seven foot one. He never grievous. He's trying to out for him. He's not dumb. Yeah.

He's trying to. This is mind games. It's mind games. It's epic a mind game. Grievous tall as hell. He should have hoped instead of trying to kill people. Um, You should listen to our Clone Wars coverage.

If after Andor, you aren't satiated with our voices, go back. Yeah, you don't even have to watch the show unless we say in the episode it's real good. Yeah, which is like five of them, maybe. That's not true. That show is good. We like that show. We do, we do, we do. It's fun to poke fun at it, but it's lovingly.

We pop off on that show and the same way we pop off on this show. And we just wouldn't do it in the same way anymore, probably. But there's good, there's really high moments in that show. There are. The clones are, like, I would die for certain clones. If you don't know about the Mortis arc, I mean, this is the thing. Y'all have heard us hyped.

Some of y'all ain't heard us upset. Yeah, that's true. Oh, yeah. You're going to hurt us like, you'll fuck the show mode. But hang on, though, like, we also got pretty hype over everything happened on Mandelor. The way all that ended, like, there's some great shit there. But yes, the killer to fill her, like, like it is like the ratio is like infinite in andor because there like is like no filler it's all

just like yeah this is great uh let's all enjoy for the moment that we all currently still live in the life where in as of our recording this in six days we will have more andor to watch yes oh it's going to be a cold winter that's coming my friends I knew my andor Wednesdays what's going to happen And then, like, I feel like the Mandalorian's going to come back, and it's going to be, like, going back to your hometown, where it's like, hey, man, Mike, it's great to see you. And it is. It is. It is.

Oh, like, still, you still with a little green guy? You still hang with him? That's cool. Okay, don't be, don't be pulling Grogu. We, don't be, don't be doing all that, okay? Grogu and I, I love that little frog. I love him so much. I love him.

I would literally make him my child. Oh, we do in, uh, we, we do in, like, rubbery, C.G. Luke Skywalker or some more. Cool. I don't like that part. I don't like that part. I don't like that part. He's cool. Uh, Luke was great.

And I guess he's still here. Still, still, still 25. Cool. Love it. I, I hadn't even thought about that in so long. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We got to end this spot.

We're starting to get set. We're starting to get... It's fine. Starting getting sad. The way they did... The way they did what? They didn't even... Y'all haven't seen it yet.

And it comes across fine. But reading that it's not new recordings of James Earl Jones doing the Vader voice, it's all... It's all tech stitched together. Vader in Obi-Wan. It's fine. I've beef. Well... Anyway, we will have another episode of Andor next week that we can go over.

So two episodes left? And here's the other thing. Is our Q&A? No, our Q&A, so. It's going to get weird. Yeah. Because we might need to tie off the Q&A here. Like this is, so this is the cutoff for the Q&A for this month.

So, like, you can send us questions about, Gosh, it's basically been him getting busted, not Niamos. Yes, Niyamos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's the Niyamos episode. In prison. And prison. It's four episodes.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's what we're taking questions on. And then probably we'll tie off and or on the Q&A in December. But I think that's where we will draw the line for this month's Q&A. also I'm going to say this now because it's important

to get it out there there's a chance the finale episode will be late because it's happening because of Thanksgiving it drops on the day before Thanksgiving

I will be out of town probably and here's everything I think it's important I'm probably gonna make it home but we got and or to record I don't know

y'all I don't know I don't know I don't know like Thanksgiving is unusual because one of the few four-day weekends where absolutely nothing happens to disturb you, like, getting a break. Like, there's very little, like, I've not worked retail in years. So for me, like, the four-day weekend, the company's Thanksgiving, is, like, the rare time when I just be totally checked out and not be on the hook for any work obligations.

I will probably be back on that Saturday or that Sunday to record. I'll be able to record if y'all are up to it. But I don't know that not, if we record on Sunday, the finale episode. am I going to have time to turn it around that day? It might be late on Monday night. It might be, you know, Tuesday, you know what I mean? Let's try to make it Wednesday. So when people wake up the first and-or-less Wednesday of their lives,

they're like, you know what? I got AMCA. They got my back. We are here for you. That's still tight, though. No, no, no. I'd rather be tighter. This is the thing is, are people going to be,

because they're going to hit Monday noon. and they're going to be like, I need it. It's been too long. I mean, it's going to be Thursday. It's going to be Thanksgiving. And they're going to be like,

I sure would be thankful for AMCA to drop early. I know. I know the tweets that are going to come. Twitter is still fucking alive by then. This is love. Yeah, right. Yeah.

But you know what? Maybe Twitter will be gone and that'll be, we're going to go over on a co-host, by the way. Someone's going to set up a co-host for it. Natalie, did you set up our co-host?

I'm going to set up a co-host and an Instagram probably. Yeah, we're going to get Eggbug on the line and see about that. Anyway, the point being, that might be late. If it's on time, that would be sick, but, you know, we will try to get it out on time, but... It's a perfectly time for a finale for you to just steep in, like, the vibes, but badly timed for doing a weekly podcast about Andor. Correct. But either way, I think we'll figure out the timing on the Q&A as well.

I'm not sure of it just at this moment. But you can always catch up. on our other Q&As, you know, the one we did on the Aldani arc and the opening arc, plus you can dip into just the, the weirdness of the Clone Wars Q&As, and you can get that all by heading over to patreon.com slash civilized and sign up to support us. Until next time, please rate, interview us on your podcast platform of choice. And remember, Luthean is a Jedi, and he has given up everything to be here

with you. Wow, Luthen and Edy, a lot in common actually. You could like, no, they can't meet. It's the same for, uh-huh. They need a meet. They need to have a conversation. I need Eiddy,

Karn. Just let me talk to her. To have a conversation. Eidie takes a bow. Did Eidie take the bow? Eid Eid took the bow. Eidie took the bow. I believe it. In my heart, I believe it. In my heart, I know that woman is based. Luton needed the most dangerous fail, son.

I want Korn to be like, if you're going to look in my private box, I'm going to go do your stuff too. And he goes in there and he finds all sorts of, she finds a rebel listening post. He finds a letter to Luton. What if he found a photo? He finds a lightsaber. He finds a lightsaber. He's a Jedi. He's a Jedi. I would die. That's never going to happen.

But not piss and shit. But maybe that's why she was so annoyed that he went and became a cop instead of just going and working in the fucking measuring department. I don't know. You never know. Based Edie. I'm a truther. I'm a based Edie truther.

Apple Podcasts. Great place to review us. Thanks for listening. It was a magical episode. Bye. We're going to be. We're going to be. You know what I'm going to be.

Thank you.