A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 53: Swapping Feelings, Theories, and Hats with Adam Serwer

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

As promised, the Autumn of Andor continues! Today, we've got the first of three guest-filled episodes coming to you this December. We are joined by Adam Serwer, author of The Cruelty Is the Point: The Past, Present, and Future of Trump's America, staff writer at The Atlantic, and life long Star Wars fan. We share and contextualize our final feelings on Andor, explore the tensions and consonances between the Lucas, Filoni, and Gilroy visions of the franchise, and (if you are very patient) try to unravel whatever the hell was up with that Karn/Mosk hat swap. NEXT TIME: TBD, but expect us to either pick up either our headphones or our character sheets. Show Notes "Star Wars Gets Political" by Adam Serwer "Tony Gilroy, forgive me for this post" - BB-8 on Andor & the Hero's Journey  Brasso's Actor posting Killing in the Name The Great Game, the Atlantic's World Cup Newsletter Finally, an important communique from the inimitable poet, sociologist, and comic book author Eve Ewing, as hand delivered by Adam Serwer: p.s. Eve, you are ABSOLUTELY welcome to come thru!

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zakney, joined by Ali Akampora, Austin Walker, and Natalie Watson. Tonight, to help us cap off the autumn of Andor, we welcome Adam Surwer, formerly the nerd culture correspondent for the American prospect. and lately of the Atlantic and the author of The Cruelty is the Point the past, present, the future of Trump's America. Adam, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. It's so awesome to be here. So before we get into a deeper discussion of the politics and allegorical meanings of Star Wars and how Andorra complicates all those, we need to get you on the record. Luthen, Jedi, or not a Jedi, Cyril Karin and Dead Romero. End game?

Or not. Okay, okay. So I have, so. I cannot, I will not, I have, on the Luther, is Lutheran a Jedi thing, here's the thing. The show wants you to think he's a Jedi. This is what I said. I don't know if he is a Jedi. At this point, yes.

At this point, yes. Absolutely wants you to think so. Do you have Chekhov's lightsaber hilt in the penultimate episode where they, where two tubes is like, hey what's this you just do not you do not ask the audience to focus on that object and the audience is like he says what's this because it's a way of highlighting you know the the knowledge gap between the audience and the people and the characters where like the audience is like that's a lightsaber hill and the characters are like what is this useless object that yes you know is a knife in the spoiler free toy that they put out but which he doesn't use the knife he never even pulls the knife we never even see that. That only makes me... They're working on levels. They want you...

I don't know that he is a Jedi, but they want you to think he is. You talk about... They don't mention the force much on Andor, but there's a lot of talk about light and dark. When, you know, my mind is a sunless place. There's a darkness

at the center of the galaxy. These are ways that they're sort of lay people discussing the underlying religion of Star Wars in these more abstract terms because they're not... You know, they're not monks who are indoctrinated into a particular religion. So, I mean, like, Lutheran talks in those metaphors in a way that is recognizably, like, light and dark.

And then he shows up, you know, he shows up in his, like, Sitz are Us outfit in the final episode. You know, the, like, he's like in a dark way. It's like, hood up. It's like the. Luke Skywalker. Luke Skywalker. I mean, Leah, like, yes, yes, he looks like, Luke Skywalker. He's like in the fake out, the fake out dark side.

Like, like, we all forget this because we've seen that movie a million times. But like when you first see Luke, first of all, he does the force choke. Yes. Right? Which is like not a thing that Jedi are supposed to do. So he's like, there's this implication that maybe Luke himself has fallen at the beginning of return of these wearing black. You know, he's doing all the side. He looks a little evil.

And with Luton, it's sort of, you know, he shows up. He is dressed like a Sith or like Luke Skywalker at the beginning of. return it. We're supposed to think of this guy in that vein. Is he? I cannot answer that because I don't know. I'm not in the writers room. But they want us to think he is. I don't know if this was someone on this show or for someone afterwards, but someone pointed out to me that when Andor looks down at him, he does not do the Jedi thing of recognizing that he's being perceived, which I think is an interesting difference between Luther and the way we see Jedi. And like, you know, when someone is looking through the the goggles at Anakin in Clone Wars, Anakin is like, like something's wrong here and right it's just i mean also you get those scenes where like someone is overwhelmed and they can't sense that stuff and that's certainly an overwhelming situation but i thought that was an interesting uh a piece of addition point is more importantly do you have not answered the other question oh my god first of all this this whole thing i cannot believe the shippers were right i cannot believe the shippers were right i cannot believe it

this is like this is literally like an in-cell fantasy this is like when you're like 12 and you're in middle school and you have a crush on a girl who won't even look in your direction and you fantasize like one day. I'll bet if like red dawn happened right now I can save her. There's like she's going to like be stepping into the road and there's a car coming and you're going to push her out of the street and suddenly she's going to notice you and realize that she's in love with you. This is like it is incredible and it works in part because it doesn't feel like it should happen on the show. And and so you are not expecting it. Or, obviously some people were expecting it

I didn't expect it I can't you know my my my my foresight failed me but I love to be right did you all see the quote I love to be right from Denise about this from the actress Did he Scowell? Yes yes yes yes yes I did I love this I love this she says in this interview for Empire

Online that okay she sacrificed everything she doesn't have friends she doesn't have a life she's prepared to be despised she ices her life everything is iced out everything and the the she says when we were playing that scene I was fucking furious how dare he touch me but when I watched it being Dejra rejecting Karn outside of that yeah correct outside of the ISB that scene how dare he touch me but when I watched I thought oh my god

she's never been touched never yes this guy can be construed as creepy and weird but what does that do to a woman who's never been with anyone ever that's Tony and Bo Willerman and Dan Gilroy, the writers. Dedra is a dominatrix isn't as interesting to me as Dejira as someone who has serious issues with intimacy and is way overwhelmed at this person's energy for her. Which...

Oh, wow. So that's wild because when I saw that scene, there was this brief moment where I was like, I am not sure that this is not catching her like off balance in also a positive way. And then the creepiness of it like hits home. And she

like this guy might actually be like a danger of a Paul but like there's a there was a weird energy in that scene I know yeah I mean look obviously some people picked up on it you know some people picked up but it's like to me that scene is like oh you gotta tell HR that you have a stocker and like let the security

guards know at your building because you know you didn't know who's going to try to get in the office DEDRA is also someone that's not going to relinquish agent like agents or control of her life over to someone else. Like I, I, I, I, I, it's hard for me to imagine

Dedra getting someone else to, to deal with Karn in that scenario because I think for her, it's almost as if, well, there's no reason why I shouldn't like, why my word shouldn't be enough or that, you know, that I shouldn't be able to like handle this situation, handle this person. Well, I'm sure it hasn't. I mean, like, who else would be crazy enough to do that to an ISV member? That's the most important thing is he nails the lander. He was crazier than his queen.

What in that one? No. Unbelievable. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I'm saying it. Somebody has to. I'm not afraid to fall in the sword for this one.

I will be brave. No, you were right. I mean, like, you could take all the victory laps you want. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so glad that I saw the in-cell writing on the wall. But the thing where, like, that this kind of ends up working out for him in a weird way. It reminds me so much of, like, the last act of Bad Lieutenant, Port of Call, New Orleans, is this is a character who's just life is just up to, like, it's up to his eyeballs in just, like, shit that is hitting the fan.

And the last act, through a series of, like, DASX Machina, everything breaks. his way. Literally every problem he has is solved and you're like what movie am I watching now to this day I wonder what movie was I watching? When you're watching Bad Lieutenant Port of Call? Yeah exactly

but that's but that was the energy it had There's so many words in the title of that movie yes there is much Rur-Hurzog is allowed to put as many words as he wants into a title legally I believe so now that we've got that on the record we should we should talk a little bit about that that issue of like politics and and what and or is doing in in star wars and you did just recently write a piece you know called star wars gets political and you're touching on a lot of things that i think you're sort of near near and dear to our hearts because on the one hand you start sort of by laying out the fact that

like Andor's central project is imagining class and ideological politics in the Star Wars universe. But at the same time, you're sort of quick to also point out that Star Wars historically really tries to resist making its politics too clearly applicable to the real world. It lends itself to ambiguous readings or misreadings. And Andors

As much as I think we do like to see, you know, it is making a lot of illusions we like. It is clearly, like, aware of a lot of things that, you know, we find resonant and important today. Andor still leaves enough gray where you can take those other, take those other reading, and kind of treat it the way Star Wars historically has been, has sort of invited audiences to treat it. Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. I mean, there's definitely, I mean, there are some themes that are inescapable, right? I mean, like, Andor as a character is, you know, his, the protagonist of the show is a guy whose father is a black man who's killed by the cops. Like, you know, he is, he goes to prison in a crackdown that is essentially, you know, pretext for extracting unpaid labor through mass incarceration.

You know, there are some themes that, you know, and I think there's some that Star Wars does really well, which is that it sort of blends things together. in a way that, you know, and or in particular does this well. It blends things together in a way that makes its characters and situations realistic without sort of being, you know, a collage. It's not cutting and pasting real-world events and then placing them in Andor. It is using these world events, sort of blending them in a way that allows a realistic plot, exploring the motivations of why, you know, someone goes empire or someone goes rebel in a way that's like coherent for an audience. And I think, you know, that's not really explored so much

in the, I mean, to some extent the prequels are like, well, why does Darth Vader become Darth Vader? But it's not the same kind of, you don't have the same sort of internal exploration of the politics of particular institutions. So in Andor, we have an empire that has, you know, an imperial core and a periphery. We have bureaucracies that have their own internal politics. I think y'all have compared it to, you know, academia when the professor is like asking his students to speak up about, you know, a particular issue and giving his favor to what he thinks is the most persuasive argument. You have, you know, as Saw memorably immortalizes in his monologue about the different factions of the rebellion, you know, you have all these people

who are ideologically distinct who have a collective enemy but who don't necessarily want to, you know, don't necessarily want to work together because they have so many ideological divisions. You have, you know, I think it is hard to look at something like, you know,

I think people are sort of bringing, in the grand tradition of Star Wars, people bring their own politics to and or, so you know, someone might see the troubles. Someone might see, you know, I mean, I think it's like difficult not to look at that funeral scene and see like and not see you know events in the

Middle East where security forces have tried to crack down on funerals of political figures or people who are killed you know for political reasons and try to prevent protests from manifest I mean there's just so much that and or does well in terms of not necessarily committing to a particular type of politics beyond you know democracy good empire bad um but But, you know, doing in such a way that is so specific that it becomes, you know, emotionally resonant and moving, you know, for us in the real world. It's funny because... Sorry, that was really long. I didn't mean to go on so long, but...

The story of our podcast. Welcome to... It's funny because I think a lot about... A friend of mine said recently, you know, when anybody watches Star Wars, they all look at that story and say, we're the rebels, whatever that side is. And I think that that's true up into a point because we do also live in a world where in our lifetimes there was a sort of rehabilitation of the empire was a part of the rhetorical space inside of post-9-11, you know, conservative circles, the sort of like, you know, maybe the empire had some points. I know what you're talking about. Right. I know what you're talking about it. It was a little tongue-in-cheek.

There was like actually Alderan had it coming because they're terrorists. That is an iconic entry in the conservative humor in that era was always tongue-in-cheek. but also kind of like secretly I mean this but also kind of like I'm kidding unless you're going to do it yeah no it's true right right but I do think that it's so

about and or is still fundamentally true and I think it's one of the things that I've seen the most difficulty with inside of the audience is the desire to paint to not do a reading but do a translation to say not to say oh you can you can come to this and say look at the ways that they're drawing on

the history of England and Scotland or England and Ireland or the United States policing or this or the Middle East. But when you go and look at somebody else who's watching this material, and we talked about this a little bit in the Q&A, the other reading is right there. The other reading of this being a libertarian fantasy, of this being a anti-big government, you know, which you also saw a lot when you looked at the way people read something like Hunger Games. I think that that's, I still have a little bit of, I love this show, but I do have a little bit of discomfort with the kind of open symbol, these are the sort

of like unresolved feeling and I don't know what to do with that with that feeling really I mean I'm not like I'm not like churning in my bed and I wish Andor had just come out and said the word for me I think what makes me frustrated at the screen and said I'm a communist now and he's the exact type of communist that I am that would be worse in many ways right because that is the most pandering like and and and also thank you for your Disney plus subscription you know I I mean, like, that would be worse in so many ways. But do I want to kind of, do I kind of want to get into what is the partisan alliance? What are sectorists?

What are human cultists? The like, lower brain part of me wants to know more, you know? Yeah. I want to know all their mission statements. I want to know all of their goals and aims. Like what, what drives each one of those to create its own, to create their own factions and to have their own fights that, you know, that they cannot unite. That Saw is so adamantly pushing himself, you know, away further from those other factions.

Like, why? Well, I want to know why. So, actually, like, I went back and I watched Rogue One after finishing Andor because I wanted, and first of all, there's, like, a lot of lovely threads in. in Rogue 1 that get picked up in Andor Like when he walks into Jeddah You know

Andor says this town's ready to blow And like you know he knows what that means Or how he can sense that You understand it There's some line where Chirut says You know there's more than one type of prison And I sense you know He carries his with him wherever he goes

Which like now you know Has a totally different heaviness People are like there's no Easter eggs in Andor What there are lots of internal motifs themes that in my mind kind of feel that's that's what I want from a quote-unquote Easter egg anyway is like a thematic recursion. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of those, but I think the big difference between Rogue One and and or really that I see is that the empire is still violently secular. And I think to the extent that you are someone, I mean,

the rebels are every righteous insurgency that has ever existed and the empire is every evil empire that has ever existed. But if I were to make, you know, a sort of, you know, more conservative reading of the empire would be that they are an anti, a violently secular organization. They do not respect religion. They think of it as superstitious. If we're up to them, they would wipe it out. I mean, you remember, you know, even in a new hope, you know, they're, they, the general, the admirals are expressing contempt for Vader and his sorcerer's ways and his ancient religion. You know what I mean? And so, and here that's present, you know, but the way that they treat, you know, the natives on Aldani, their general approach

to religion is, or even on pharynx with the funeral ritual, they're just, there are people who don't believe that religious faith has anything to offer the galaxy, and I think, you know, that makes sense with Palpatine's character, but in Rogue One, that the religious, religiosity of the rebellion is much more at the forefront. Like, you don't see it as much in Andor. But, you know, they refer to the holy city of Jeddah. You know, on the beach, they're screaming for Jeddah when they're charging. You know, Andor talks about his relationship with the force.

Like, it's his relationship with God. We see people praying. And I wonder if we're going to get a little more of that in the next season as well as, like, you know, maybe some... I would also love to read all the white papers from the various rebel factions. Give me the Gorman Front's breakdown. Let's see. Let's see. I would like to know whether the Gorman Front favors a parliamentary democracy or a unitary presidential system. No, I mean, I'm just saying, but I do think that the sort of religious, the religious, the empire's focus on religiously oppressing every society that it comes across that has an organized religion is, I think, one way you can see yourself in the rebels if you are a more conservative. person. Yeah, that's a very clear read. Is there anything else you're curious having just rewatched Andor? I think we're about to rewatch Andor, not Andor, rewatch Rogue 1. Do you think there's anything that feels like they also have to set up X, Y, Z? I know a lot of people

eager to see K2SO come in, but otherwise. It's so interesting. It's a board stuff. Because K2SO is, you know, he is, you know, y'all have talked about the compassion for droids on Andor. And there is compassion. for K2SO in Rogue One, but he is not, he's not treated the same as B2 Emo, right? He's not a person in the same way. There's a lot of people are pretty dismissive of him. The big, like, character arc moment is when Juno hands him a blaster and he's like, you continuously surprise me.

You know, this is like, he's like, oh, you see me as a person for the first time. You know what I mean? Like, you know, they're always telling him to go back to the ship. Also, here's a gun. and continue, you know, like, the thing, he still has value. He still has, he's still like, he's still serving them a very particular role, whereas B2 email doesn't really have a, like, a function in the way that, you know, this society thinks of droids being valuable for having.

So, like, it's, it's, I'm very. One of the reasons I'm so excited to get to Star Wars, a new hope eventually, is that, like, is that like the first 20 minutes of that movie are about Luke going to buy slaves. Like that's what is happening textually on the screen. And he hates them. They're like annoying. They're annoying. They're annoying.

They'll be goddamn if he lets that. Right. Stop him from becoming an imperial pilot. The drawer thing is, when we want to discuss about uncomfortable stuff, the drawer thing is the most uncomfortable thing. And you just can't think about it too much because then you're like, well, but I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing in Rogue One that's like, you know, with B2 and when he's like, okay, I'll stay with you at the apartment tonight because I know, I don't want you to have nightmares sleeping by yourself. Like, that is, there's nothing like that. That is like a level of droid, human, emotional

friendship intimacy that has, you know, I don't think we've ever seen before on, you know, in Star Wars, in this sort of, you know, tier A canon stuff. No, you have to dig. You have to start digging. Which I'm curious, we haven't raised this. It's just like, everyone at this point who has listened to us or who's going back and listened to some of our initial episodes knows what our histories with Star Wars are we varied we varied histories uh the four of us what is yours what brought you to star wars what was your like entry into the into the into the saga so so i don't remember the first time i saw Star Wars um i do not remember a time before i knew what star wars was um you know

i i you know when i was a kid there was only the first three movies um you know and then like there's the first thing movies and someday you know you meet you go over to your friend's house and and this is a dad who like knows all the models of airplanes and top gun and like own several firearms or something and he's like by the way did you notice that the first star wars movie is episode four and it's just like it blows your mind and you're like wait so there's this whole other all this other stuff happened that we have no idea about and then you So, you know, this is how you get sucked into the extended universe and you suddenly, you know, you want to discover all this specialized knowledge of the Star Wars universe, which in those days was hard to find. You know, this was before they were like, oh, we can print money with this shit.

It was only nerds. It was only nerds who were like reading the novels. And like, you know, it was like this, you know, they used to like just print these like thick ass paperbacks of like Star Trek and Star Wars books that you, you would go to. borders and buy and they would give you like you know the inside scoop on whatever which all got changed it all got wiped out eventually when the prequels came out and stuff like that but you know it was it was this idea that there was this larger universe and history of things that happened that just like sort of sucks you in and this is a you know this is one of the great things about Star Wars is that it's such a huge universe that there's so

many different types of stories that you can tell in it I mean like I use the example of, um, sorry, uh, my, it's bedtime from my daughter and she is protesting as usual. Um, if you need to go take care of your daughter and tell you, no, it's okay, it's okay. Um, this has all been prearranged, but, um, you know, you look at something like, you look at something like solo, which is like a heist movie. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have, I'm not saying you have to love solo, but it is a, you can have, there's no lights. There's no lights. There's no lightsaber. Oh, that's not true. There are, are there lightsaber's There's one lightsaber in and I'm not going to spoil it.

Is it the post thing? No, it's not a post credit thing. No, it's not a post credit thing. It's not a post credit thing. Do they use it in a heist? I'm not going to, we'll get that. I've been seeing it yet. I haven't seen it yet.

I haven't seen it yet. Or you're clone wars listeners who don't know the fate of certain characters. I'm not going to spoil it. Okay, me, me, it's me. I'm them. But the point is, the point is that you, Star Wars universe is big enough to have many different types of Star Wars. Like, you can have a Star Wars, you know, there's some people.

Some people would think, you know, I don't want all Star Wars to be like Andor. Like, I'm fine with having a Star Wars that is like rebels, that is more aimed towards kids. Or Star Wars that is like, you know, solo, which is like a lot more humorous and like, you know, focused on the underworld. I'm fine with like all these different interpretations of the universe because I think that's one of the wonderful things about it. I wish they hadn't totally fucked everything up in the sequel trilogy. But in general, you know, it's just one of the things that's amazing about it is that it. it is such a big universe that can encompass so many different types of

storytelling. Well, this is one of things that you mentioned toward the end of your piece, but I think it touches on a lot of the reasons why I ended up liking a lot of the old EU and you get it kind of some of things I really hate about the sequel trilogy. You sort of write, when

there's no compelling depiction of political or social constraints, not even a passing mention of the imperial Senate being dissolved, the last remnants of the old republic swept away. There's also not much left to explore. And I think, like, the sequel trilogy, kind of from the jump, and certainly by the end, uh, does a tremendous job of just like wiping the slate completely, not clean, but just like

blowing away the possibility of writing anything on the slate again, uh, in some ways when it comes to what are the politics of Star Wars, what is, what is happening in this universe, like how do these people, uh, relate to one another and the struggles in the galaxy? And I think a lot of old EU works tried to do that. Like, you know, some more than others. I think the Timothy Zon trilogy about like Admiral Thron sort of leading a renewed empire was really interested in like what were the pre-Palpatine politics of the universe, what was the empire like when it wasn't doing all sorts of Sith shit.

but you know the sequel trilogy kind of has zero interest in that it's just it's just kind of like focused on the on the symbolism sort of recreating the the iconography of the original trilogy and really does lose touch with this sense of that was very present in the original in the original trilogy it wasn't it wasn't central to it but but it was present this constant sense of like all of this action you are seeing is build on a, like, admittedly, like, crumbled foundation, but there's still a foundation there of old structures and beliefs and manners of doing things. And within that, the empire is still in its way a revolutionary force and also still kind of at odds with its own

contradictions, right? That it's, that it is sort of rigorously secular and also the two figures at the center of it are space wizards who are the apostates for the, for, for, for, for the order they sort of wiped out. And, you know, I think this is one of the things that, I think this is one reason why I end up connecting so much with Andor is that Andor feels kind of like the best possible version of some of my favorite expanded universe stories.

And we, you know, we talk so much about that, that Sa Guerrera speech. But it is so enticing because it is like one of the first times that, you know, canon, film, Star Wars, you know, project, someone just starts reeling off, oh yeah, yeah, bro, there's politics happening everywhere. Tons of beliefs. Like, you wouldn't believe

how many people are out there who didn't like the Republic and don't like the empire. And they don't go together at all. They all believe different things. And here's some weird names and you can sort of imagine. Just as you deal with, like, when Tarkin says, the Senate's just

been dissolved, when you hear things like Galaxy Partitionists I think I know what that might be but I'm very curious to know more Outer Rim

Inner Rim Perverts I don't know Outter rim inner rim herverts Yeah maybe They want to like Carve it up and have it be like a bunch of autonomous

Little Region Micro Micro regions Yeah Yeah But I wonder if it's like All a bunch of the

Imperialists Who were within the separatist Coalition who was like Actually the problem is we try to make it like we try to recurric it's too central light

yeah and instead what should have been is the industrial military powerhouses of the galaxy just taking their share that's kind of how I can hear it to me I read that that whole third those last three lines

of sectarists human cultists galaxy partitionists like I think that's just that's everyone out there that's not sought like human human cultists that's not like

a faction that is like a motivation behind a lot of factions if that makes sense or people who are like I feel like that's not the human cultists it's like an epitist generally speaking

he's dismissing them by calling them yeah yeah yeah I'm sure they have a different name than that right I'm sure they're not like hey we're the human cultist group here's our we also didn't I guess get your overall feeling. I mean, you wrote that piece a couple months ago now, right?

Or at the beginning of November, so a month ago. You know, at this point, the show is over. Do you feel like it's stuck the landing? Were you happy with that big final arc? Yeah, look, wrote that piece. As a fan, you know, I have questions that I want to answer in the series, in the season finale that they didn't answer for me. But, you know, in terms of, did they stick?

I mean, look, look, that is this sort of an incredible Shakespearean tablo. Like, it's like, it's like the end of a play where all the main characters are on stage. Like, I don't even know how they pull that off. Like, it's just, it's sort of a, it's, it's, it's, I think it's amazingly well done. I think it's extremely resonant. I think it is, you know, that, you know, just talking a little bit about, like, the politics of Star Wars. I mean, that's scene, um, where a character throws a bomb into a crowd of stormtroopers, and he's the good guy. You could not do that in the United States of America.

you know 15 years ago like the politics like you certainly wouldn't see Disney doing it like there's no way Disney's letting that happen um but it is sort of i mean it's consistent with i mean that scene in rogue one um in jedda like it's very much like we're in space afghanistan um or like that's the tone that they're trying to convey um which you know has some uncomfortable resonances not just with the soviet invasion but with at the time was, you know, the ongoing American presence in Afghanistan. I mean, there's, I think it's a, it's sort of incredible that they managed to pull it off. And I think they could have done that particular shot so many other ways.

They could have done, they could have played it like the iconic picking up the smoke or the tear gas grenade and throwing it back in Ferguson shot. They could have made it be a crime of passion or something. No, they had a guy building a bomb. He built the bomb. Right, it's not imperial. It's not like something he took, he stole from them. He's not using their weaponry or their. Yeah.

Heroically. Not framed like he's gone too far, right? Not he's right, but too much. I mean, I think that's, I mean, it's extraordinary that Disney allowed that to be made. I mean, it's, I don't know what else to say about it. But it's also, I mean, I think we. you think about the resolution of the show, I mean, it is everything, I mean, it's not just that the episode is done well, it's that everything that leads up to the episode happens

very organically. I mean, this is the result. I mean, you know, Luton is sort of, you all talked about how Luton is like recognizing this is organic rebellion, but it is kind of the result of his machinations, right? I mean, it all starts when, you know, the empire comes in because, you know, Karn has decided that he wants to be a hero cop and then, like, causes an intergalactic incident and the empire has to come in, and their, you know, their oppression leads to exactly what Luther said it would, which is that people start rebelling against the, you know,

the empire's attempt to clamp down on the protests that they help spark. And there's something, and sort of moving about, You know, Marva is acting on inspiration from and or even though she doesn't even know her, you know, he knows that she is responding to something he did, that he inspired her, but she doesn't know that, that he inspired her. And he's, but she makes this judgment about him, like, I know what kind of person you are. You are a rebel. You are capable of this of being a hero. And we all know he is because we've seen one. But, you know, that kind of genuine emotional connection, that's something that is cultivated in storytelling.

And we don't, we have never, we have not seen that kind of excellence in storytelling or even really that kind of storytelling in the on-screen Star Wars universe, on-screen live-action Star Wars universe, just to qualify it even more. So are you saying, are you, is that you, is that you should? shouting out Clone Wars and Rebels and other stuff that you... First of all, I love Clone Wars. I know you have Clone Wars feelings. I love rebels. I think that one of the things I love about Star Wars, and this includes Rogue One, is that people will take the plot holes in Star Wars and weave these incredible stories out of them.

So, like, Clone Wars is like a series like, how to... Why is Anakin insane at the beginning of episode three? Like, the series answers that question. You know, because you're like, how does this guy become... a terrible person. And, you know, over the course of Clone Wars, we see, you know, the Republic fucking up. We see his Padawan being, you know, suffering through things I won't mention. I stop myself there from issuing a big spoiler. So we have seen, we've gotten through season five. We've, we, she just left the order. Right. So, I mean, that, I mean, like, yes, yes. I mean, this is one of the

things that, you know, it's not just Tony Gilroy, like, Philoni, and this is a thread that Lucas, you know, in the prequels, he sets this in there. It's like, the Republic is not great. This system is very ill. The system is not working. There is a reason why it's possible for Palpatine to do what he does. And this is up from a lot of where, I think a lot of rich storytelling emerges out of that threat. Whereas, you know, it's not really possible to do that in the sequels because you don't even have a hint really of the society.

that exists in an interesting way. What they could have done is introduce new interesting holes that need to be filled. Yeah, instead of trying to answer just every question that we didn't have. It's like the thing about the prequels is they introduce new language. They introduce new iconography. They introduce new, you know, new stuff and the sequels. There's some new stuff there. There's not nothing.

But I think about Andor and the places right now name three places from Andor. I think we could all do it. We could all say pharix, Narkina 5, Niyamos. We can talk about the ISB headquarters. It's obviously Khorasan. We could talk about, Aldani, we could talk about the projects in Khorasat. We talk about your government housing on Khorasat is not a thing we've seen before, but we really feel like I get it now. Name three locations from the sequels.

Endor. That's not in the sequels. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. They don't go back there. Manchin. That's star. Is that Endor? Maybe you're right, you're right, you're right, that is Endor.

That is the, that is the, you're right. That's where they find the Mujah Hadin. Yay! Yeah, that's true. That did you then launch a cavalry charge, I think, on the exterior whole plating of a Star Destroyer. Don't worry about it. What's the... My point is, there's no places.

There's no sense of... There's no institution. There's Babu Frick. There's Babu Frick's house. Babu Frick is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's the lady with the mask, I guess. Maas's...

I even mean... Canto Bight is one place. That I know people don't even like that gets name checked here. But in Andor, but, you know, that's one place. They were trying to do something there. I mean, like, when you think about Benicio D'Otero's character, where he's like, sometimes you win, sometimes they win.

That is a hint at the same apathy that... Yes. Andor has. He's like, look, I'm just trying to make it. Like, I'm not trying to be part of your political struggle. I'm not an idealist. I'm trying to make my money and, like, live my life. Do you remember what that character's name is?

I do not. It is DJ, which is short for don't join. Incredible. Hold up. Incredible. Give me the DJ backstory. I mean, like, there are, like, the Last Jedi is a controversial film because there's a lot of great shit in it that also makes people mad.

and I'm not saying everything in there is a hit but when you talk about what people like about Andor some of that stuff is a lot of that stuff is in The Last Jedi A lot of that stuff we didn't even talk about I got a message from Jake Rodkin friend of the show Formerly of Idle Thumbs currently up at Valve And he was like I'm surprised you guys didn't talk about the Yoda stuff From Last Jedi when you talked through

Someone wrote in a question to our Q&A and said hey Can you talk about the relationship between Yoda saying there is no try and the return of try in the big wow I'm blanking not Marva Nemic Nemic the Nemek speech

and Jake was like I'm surprised that you didn't bring that in because a lot of the Yoda stuff there is about the value of failure and how actually failing is super important which itself feels like a corrective to well we haven't gotten that far Jake

that's what I told Jake I said Jake we'll get there I'm excited to get there. I said it's been so long since I've seen it. I don't want to just say some shit that I don't know. And also, Razor Skywalker has made it very hard to go back and watch any of that. Yeah, I just think it's hard to engage. The Rise of Skywalker was the last movie I saw before COVID-19 hit the world. And it is the only Star Wars movie I have never seen again.

I have only seen it once. Yep. And you've been listening to me. You understand how much of a Star Wars weirdo I am. And I've never seen. I never watched that movie again. I've never queued it up. You think you ever will?

Were you tempted? Were you laugh? What was your, were you laughing? Were you angry? Like, what was your, like, disposition throughout watching Rise of Skywalker as a lifelong Star Wars fan? So there's a moment, there's like that moment of sparring where Leah is sparring with Luke.

And that is the only moment where there's like a tickle of that old excitement. You know what I mean? Where I was like, oh, that's the movie that might have been made in a different universe. And that's the movie, like, I ultimately wanted to see as a kid. And, you know, I'm not saying, you know, obviously, like, look, this happened, you know, 40 years later, whatever, it's fine. But to me, that was, like, literally the only moment in Rise of Skywalker when I had any emotional reaction at all. The rest of the time, I was like, what the fuck is this? It is like

SNL sketch making fun of Star Wars level of storytelling except SNL is funny on purpose. Like I think back to the Kylo Ren skit. The undercover boss. Undercover boss. I mean Undercover boss. It's good. It's really good. It's really good.

Also, weirdly enough, a really good treatment of what Kylo Ren is as a person. This is the weird thing is like he is not doing like the comedy version of Kyla Wren, he's just playing Kyle O'Ren an episode of Undercutterbox. This is like, this is like character

notes on who he thinks this guy is. 100%. But yeah, I mean, I think one of the problems with the last Jedi for me is that I think Johnson is coming in kind of boxed in by the Force Awakens, which is already like

we're rewracking it, we're doing everything again, we're bringing the same symbols, the same images, the same setup. We're going to have a random Obi-Wan Kenobi get murked at the start of this movie, played by Max von Siddow, why? No idea. Doesn't matter. We just need him to get killed by his, by his apprentice. We're just going to, we're just to keep it moving. And Johnson doesn't really have, like, there's, there's not, like, again, there's not a strong foundation. You can, you can take that story because you don't really

know very much what's happening in his universe. And so I think he just, he is trying to complicate Star Wars, but he has to stay in the allegorical and mythic mode that the previous movie was in. He can't do these detours into the institutionalism that Gilroy has like endless time for. And so we get like, you know, Kantobites a really good example of, hey, this is the Monte Carlo of Star Wars where like whatever happens in this galaxy, how many billions of people die, these people are still going to be making money off it. Like, it's not going to touch them.

They're going to be fine. The party's going to be great. And that's told to us through, like, a really fast, like, scene establishing shot that you've seen a million times, like, on Twitter and such. But, like, you're not going to get time for him to lay out. He's not going to get to do, like, Casablanca in Cantomite. He's just going to get to, allude to Casablanca.

Imagine that movie. And then he has to like run back. Pardon? No, I said, imagine that movie. I mean, like, you, I mean, that's the thing is you could kind of do it if you wanted to. I'm not saying they should. I'm just saying, you know. Yeah. An entire mini-series set in like, we didn't tell you everything happened on Cantobite. And it's about like Finn and Rose like, uh, like fixing. horse races on Canto Bight to get money to kill off the planet? I'd watch that.

I would watch it. I would watch it. The force sensitive stable boys of Cantoe Bike. Oh my God, I forgot about them. I forgot. Let me forget. Got a dark scene. Finn's tempted the darkness.

I don't have a strong feeling about this one. He's like, but I think I can get one. And he hands a syringe to Finn. And he's just like, I can't be the one to do this. I can't do it, yeah. I am so curious to see. I mean, there's rumors now of them returning to that timeline in a cinematic sense somewhere.

And I do not, I could never be the person who has to try to put that one back together. Because I don't think the raw materials there in the same way. Yeah, I mean, and maybe I'll eat those words. Y'all, y'all cover the prequels and like, you're like, some of this stuff is really bad corny but then it's kind of interesting that the Jedi are kind of fucked up and corrupt for this you know what I'm saying like that it's kind of interesting that the republic really is like ineffectual it's kind of interesting that like you know there's slavery and the Republicans isn't doing it like all these like these are you know they're there

they're there and they're there on purpose like Lucas left those there on purpose like there's stuff like the midi-chlorians which you're like why but but then there's other stuff that you're like this is actually kind of interesting and you I mean the early episodes for those of you who only popped in for Andor, highly recommend listening to the early episodes of the civilized age for this stuff. But those threads are there, and there's

just nothing like that. You know, there's stuff like that in the original trilogy and the stuff like that in the prequel trilogy, and it spun out into Clone Wars and Rebels. And even in Tales of the Jedi, which, you know, without spoilers, is basically the radicalization of

Count Duku. Yes. Oh, I'm so ready. I cannot wait to watch it. I'm so. Oh, I really, really, really, really want to watch that. It is Wildhouse. Go ahead.

It's no, I mean, I mean, that, like, there is a Star Wars cartoon that is set in the prequel trilogy. I'm trying to, I'm actually, I watched it, and I'm blanking on the name of it that is set on, like, a water planet. It's like Star Wars. Oh, no, in the sequel. In the sequel trilogy. In the sequel trilogy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just, yeah.

The world is, like, they're trying their best. The people made that show were trying their best. They just did not have a lot to work with. I'm not sure if we're going to watch that. I mean, we'll probably get there. And I'll be like, well, why not? It's three seasons. Let's knock it out, you know.

But I'm very excited to get to Rebels. I've heard the beginning of Rebels is a little rough. But there's stuff in there that I know about that I'm excited for us to be able to dig into. I think there's, I mean, the thing that Rebel, you know, rebels is not as flawed. You know, it has its problems. But I think the thing that really nails is this sort of sense of menace. that the Empire has the first time you watch a New Hope

like these guys are really scary and really powerful and the good guys are really outnumbered and they really don't know what they're doing and like and you know not to not to keep harping on the sequel trilogy but this question of this question that and or answers

you know goes into is like how does this society work the sequel trilogy is afraid to ask that question right like what is what is the society of the galaxy look like you know, why is there still a first order? Why has the Republic not consolidated?

You know, what is the world of the Republic like? Does it have the same flaws as the old Republic or has it managed to be better than that? You know, these questions that could have been made for an interesting sequel trilogy that are present in, you know, the extended universe stuff that people like, it's just, it's non-existent in those movies. Yeah.

And that's the real flaw. it's so concerned with with molding the perfect hero or heroine and the perfect villain that it it it forgets to include what they're fighting for or you know like to to display what they're fighting for which I think is is what and or does so incredibly well and and we've we've met we've said this on the podcast before but gives me such a greater appreciation for the original trilogy, actually, because when I think of what people are fighting for in the original trilogy, I'm thinking of Aldani. I'm thinking of, you know, pharix, of the, of the struggle and the bravery of the people on pharynx, rather than, you know, just some chosen one

or Hero's Journey or, you know, special boy. Well, okay, but here's a thing. Andor is, there's a, I'm going to shout out a person on co-host. I'm going to shout out BB8 on co-host. A great follow. A great follow. Co-host.org slash BB8. They have a really interesting post about the hero's journey and Andor.

And I think the most important thing in it is that they, remind readers that the hero's journey is a lens and it has been turned into a playbook. And so when you're when you're analyzing stories, you can analyze Andor and put the hero's journey to it. You can apply that and say, hey, when is when is Andrew moving through the threshold? When is he rejecting the call? Because he absolutely rejects the call, right? You can apply that there. But what a lot of, what a lot of, a lot of, a lot of Hollywood creators have done, a lot of, you know, we worked, I worked in video games, still work in video games, but a lot of us have done that work. In video games, people apply it like a template for a good story. Instead of saying,

how does this resonate with this, this style of storytelling that's existed, that exists in this mythic way, how does this, you know, these are stories that resonate across culture. Here are elements of stories that resonated across cultures. And, and, you know, you can put that to Andrew and or can be your special boy. But what I think, what I think transforms it is what you say in that in your piece, Adam, which is, is that you have that bit where you say, when you say that it's political, you don't mean that it's liberal or left wing. You mean that it's interested in internal politics of class culture and ideology. And I'll even go beyond that and say it's also about how material the world feels. In that original Star Wars trilogy, you know, I think about the

the chess board that that or the Dajaric board that Chubaka is playing on. I think about just the messiness of the spaces and the cleanliness of the imperial spaces, the smooth hallways. I think about the way that you can think about

the layout of some of these places. You can think about the seeing Luke's farmstead at the beginning of a new hope and unseeing and feeling the heat of Tatooine when he looks out. Those have this kind of physicality that makes the spaces feel lived in, which was so key

to what makes Star Wars, and is what invites you to go read EU novels. It's because that's part of where those questions emerge. I also think that there is something fundamentally political about telling a story in that model or to ensure that the details speak in that way, that

when they say something like in Andor in the Narcina 5 arc, that you have to come in first place to get taste right that's a to get taste in your food tube and your slug and your slurry that is there is something sensuous happening there about reminding the audience that these places feel a certain way you can you in that moment can think about the sort of like grimy empty taste that that andors get all the other prisoners are going through and i i do think that that has a politics i don't think it's as clean as you can't map it like that's not that's not anarchism you know what i mean but i do think the awareness and concern with physical material details, which is ironic since what we also talked about is the empire is physical, secularist, anti-force. And, you know, there's a tension there, actually. But I think in terms of filmmaking, that has a politics that I think separates Andor from a lot of other

stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as far as the hero's journey, what's interesting to me is that, and this is another thread from Rogue One, Andor knows he's not the special boy, right? So in world one, you know, it's Jen Erso who gives a speech to the rebel council. Andor shows up with Melchie and the guys afterwards and he's like, we're going to follow you, right? Like, you know, she's the hero. In the same way that Keen O'Loy, he's like, you know, it has to be you. I'm not the guy. There's like a consistency to him being like the background guy, the sort of, you know,

He's not the hero, hero. He is the guy who does the hard work who gets his hands dirty. He's support. I mean, he tells Lucan, take me in. Like, bring me into your cause. That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that. Well, this is one of the things where, you know, so much of,

and or season one, people are like, ah, this is about, like, him having his political awakening to all of this and, like, becoming a, you know, taking the steps to being a true believer in the rebel cause. But the thing is, from the next season, to bring it up to Rogue One, when we meet him in Andor, he is a guy who is very close to, maybe not necessarily losing faith in the necessity of what he is doing, but he is losing faith in, like, the morality of what he, like, his role is in all this. Like, the speech he gives, explaining why Malshi and all the boys are coming with is basically, like, all of us know we're going to hell for what we've done for the rebellion. Like every single one of us is, you know, beyond redemption, you know, because of what we have done, what we have, what we have given up, you know, in service to this cause. And the reason we have to go to Scariff is because if we don't beat the empire today, if we don't do this right now, all of that will be meaningless.

Like all of it will have been for nothing. We'll just put more evil out into the galaxy and the greater good will never material. realize. And I think that's the, that's the other part of this that I'm really interested in is that like, you know, so much of this was like, come on and or it's, you know, you have to see the injustice and sort of heed the call. And at the end of this, he does. And somehow between like now and the start of Rogue One, he becomes a guy who like, you know, shooting, shooting a rebel source in the back on, on what is it, the ring of Caphrine. is like sort of his breaking point, almost, just emotionally. And that's sort of the next leg of this that I find so interesting is that, you know, one was about the sort of the hope and optimism of seeing a guy, you know, get radicalized, sort of commit himself to a cause. And then the next part of it seems like it's going to be.

And here is what the cost can be to have. committed your life and your agency to violent revolutionary struggle. Yeah, I'm curious to see that stuff, and I'm curious to see the degree to which it is. I mean, the fact that we know we're getting a few, we're getting one season and we're basically getting like an arc per year or something like that should be really interesting in seeing the development of psychology. I have that, I have that terrible feeling when something you like ends where you're like, oh, are they going to be able to live up to it?

And it doesn't matter at this point because the end or season one was just so good. But I'm hopeful, and I'm hopeful in part because they're shooting it now. They're not shooting it three months from now when the hype has gotten to people's heads. They're not in the writer's room right now. They wrote it all. It's been done in terms of that story. And based on what we've now read and heard about the writer's room for season one, we raised this on the podcast that they broke that story in like six days, five, six days.

I have to imagine that a lot of it was already in place. I have to imagine a lot of it in season two has already, you know, the vision is there. And I'm hopeful. I'm like, I'm worried. I'm nervous, but I'm generally hopeful about what that season brings. I don't even know what I, I don't know what it could do. It couldn't do anything to make me not like this first season as much as I do, I think, right? That's a good way to put it.

I think my only fear is that we just, it, it won't be enough. Like, I won't, I won't be say, I still want five seasons. I still want five seasons. Five years in a season? It's so much time and so little TV to go with it. Well, look, this series is called Andor. Ain't nothing saying we can't get a later series called Brasso.

Hero. Brassa. I want the Brasso series. Did you see that the Brasso actor posted was on Instagram, killing the name, mash up with him beating Stormtroopers over the head? Fantastic. Incredible.

I think not Stormtroopers. The riot cops. They're actually not Stormtroopers specifically. I mean, I think, you know, the problem with IP stuff is often, you know, and it may sound hypercritical because now I'm on my fourth decade of loving Star Wars.

But, I mean, with IP stuff, the question is really, are you willing to end the story where it's supposed to end? Or are you going to allow them to monetize it by telling it forever? And I think a lot of us were like sort of, you know, skeptical of and or before seeing it, because it seemed like that kind of thing, like an attempt to monetize Rogue One, which was very popular because it was so unique. And then we watched it and it was like actually good. And I think it was actually good because they're like, we're going to tell one story with this.

This is not something we're going to try to perpetuate. You know, this is not, you know, in app purchasing. You know what I mean? We're not going to try to get money out of you forever. By making you watch a show that's going to, you know, go on for 20 seasons, we're going to tell one story and that's it. And I do think, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know whether it's going to be good. But generally, when something has a defined endpoint in something like this, I'm more, I tend to be optimistic that it's going to be done well.

You know, it's interesting that you say that because even though I, you know, we think of Andor as telling this one hyperlocalized story. The fact that for a show called Andor, for a show named after one of its lead, you know, protagonists, we spend so much time with other people's stories that we're sitting here, like, how many lines does Brasso have, right? But we're sitting here talking about how much, enough. He had enough to have a lasting impact. There are so many characters throughout and or that despite their limited screen time have had a very, very strong impact in my conception of the world of Star Wars of these localized spaces and places that it is really kind of masterful how all of these disparate stories are woven into such a coherent. centralized like plot I don't know

I'm a narrative y'all were talking about you know mom mom's daughter you know and her you know sort of becoming religious and like to me you know

I saw that in a number of ways obviously she's rebelling against her secular lived parents right but she's also in some sense rebelling against the empire she's like you know the empire frowns on religion so I'm gonna I get to do this both at once but that I mean that scene

is such a it's such a world-building scene you know what I mean it just tells you something about the orientation I mean even like and this is the thing that Andor does so well in sort of short storytelling it just gives you an entire sort of economic political even ideological worldview in a few moments it's just very efficient it's a very efficient scene setting and storytelling in a way that you know in part because of what awesome is talking about the universe feels lived in, even when it's shiny, it feels lived in in a way that, like, you know, the book of Boba Fett, you know, it looks like a set, you know, it looks like, it looks like a set. Like, it's weird because I hope, you know, I'm sorry to do this to you guys, but I do

hope you take a look at Obi-Wan at some point because it's like, it's like, we will, we will, we will. It's such a, like, mixture of, like, sublime moments and, like, the CW in 2005. ass cinematography you know what I mean like it's just it's so it's so it's so weirdly mixed up

you're selling it for me honestly like you're not in the emotions are not there I'll find them I'll find them I'm somebody who's like watched almost every single

of those goddamn Berlanteverse shows on the CW and like I stick with all of them past the point where I should I'm like they're like season 12 of Aaron man being like

I'm like, you know, maybe this is going to get good again. Yeah. You know, maybe this is the one where, uh, where some of this starts making sense again. And I'll feel that'll spark for whatever, whatever all he's up to. I know you truly understand how bad those shows are because you've never asked me to do a podcast about one of them. And I know you would have asked me if you knew in your heart that I could find any joy. Um, I was going to say is I, I kind of, you know, thinking about Andrew holistically, thinking about the future. The thing that I hope it, like my realistic hope for the future is that this adds new spoke

onto the Star, the wheel of Star Wars content type of thing where like, I don't want the Falloniverse to go anywhere. I want Faloni to keep making stuff. I, you know, I saw Mando season three, got a date. I'm excited for that despite how I felt about Book of Boba Fett. I want there to keep being mainline movies. I'm so curious to see what the next time they want me to go to what theater to see a Star Wars looks like. And I, I, I, I, I want to, hope that this kicks off people at, you know, now that, now that we're in a new world of Disney, we've, we've returned to the Igerverse. The, I hope that we get investment in storytelling like this in this universe, even coming from other people where they're allowed

to be in the, where they can go and say, I kind of will make a thing sort of like Andor, but X, Y, Z. And that, that, that, the check gets signed. I wonder how much that, that, that plot is already in motion in terms of the, you know, set, what they have coming for for Star Wars over the next five years or whatever. Like, Acolyte is, I think it has begun filming. They've, you know, done all their cast announcement for that.

Who's on that? Who's making that show? Um, that's a great question. This is the prequel sheave show. This is the High Republic. Is it High Republic? It can't be high. It is High Republic.

So it's completely disconnected. Yeah. No one we know will be. be there except maybe Yoda because Yoda's around during high Republic times mm-hmm well normally toes he is it's it's I need to know it's really important we got

subscribe to our Patreon Q&A at patreon.com slash civilized don't learn about the toes paid attention to the sort of like the the massive backlash on social media when they realized that that Yaddle talks normally we did

yeah we did How do you feel about this? Do you want to weigh in in this moment? I think it is such an incredible troll. To be like, actually, no, Yoda species don't speak like that. I don't know if, like, you know, Yaddle just like, you know, she grew up in a human neighborhood, you know what I mean? She just, you know, this is the century long flexed by Yoda. Wait.

Does she ever have a scene with Yoda? Does she have a scene with Yoda in that show? I need to know if Yaddle code switches. Okay. So, does she talk, when she talks to the yoga, does she, does she do the yoga talk? Or does she say, what the fuck are you doing? Have you just been on Khorisant doing this this entire time? And this is why everyone's giving me these looks when I speak?

It's sort of like, you know, I'm just fucking with them, you know what I mean? They don't know. They just think I'm a weird little alien, you know, they don't know. It's hilarious. It seemed at the time. Nobody knows where the fuck I come. And when you guys actually see the show and you see the context in which this occurs, it's going to be much funny. I cannot wait.

Because it is not, it is not exactly a, a happy story. And so, you know, the fact that the thing that people took away from it was like, wait a minute, this, this Yoda has been fucking the entire time for 40 years, this motherfucker Yoda. Incredible. I love that. Incredible. So, you know, obviously, we're, we're about to. like head back into the Clone Wars and one of the things I was curious about you know so you roughly know like where we're at we've just had Asoka you know wrongfully accused of you know

treason and sort of leaving the order Adam I remember like I thought I remember but I can't find any record of it and I'm no longer sure it was you who wrote wrote a piece about how early in the Clone Wars run It sort of seemed like it might be normalizing the Forever War for children on TV. This was not me, but that is a remarkable observation. Yeah, I want to say it was one of the bloggers of the prospect. So I don't think it was me, but it might have, I'm trying to think it might have been Kelsey Atherden, who, who is a big Star Wars, a big Star Wars. He wrote an entire book on like the strategy of Star Wars.

He's a very funny guy. Who was Blog Tarkin? Do we know who? Yeah, that was Blog Tarkin. That's Kelsey. Okay. I think, you know, the thing that the Philoniverse and that Clone Wars does, that is incredible, which is that it does for the clones what Andor tries to do for droids,

which is that the clones become people, right? I mean, like early on you get that episode where the guy is deserted and he's a farmer and he's raising kids. You know what I mean? And it sort of explores this question of, like, you know, one of the things about Asoka that makes us love her as a character is that she thinks of the clones as people. It is, again, like, this is another one of the creepy currents of Star Wars,

is that this is a slave army effectively. Yeah. You know, so I think that is, you know, one of the aspects of the Philoniverse that I think is most affecting is the fact that it uses Clone Wars. It uses the story to tell you who the clones are. that they're individual people, that they have individual tastes, that they have their nicknames. You know, y'all have already been through this arc, but there's that arc, I'm blanking on his name,

but where there's essentially an evil Jedi, right? And the way we know he's evil, the Umbara arc. The Umbara, the way we know he's evil is that he treats the clones like slaves. You know, that is, you know, that's not really present anywhere, you know, in the original movie. Or he's saying out loud what how clones are being treated like across the galaxy Clones have always been disposable you know uh uh shields in front of Jedi who we need to keep safe we how but like Austin does the post you know the the show notes for every episode of the Clone Wars where you write how many people have died and like every single one

there's like hella clones on that list clones we die and and Pong is Pong is saying out loud what we've, what we've seen, like how how disposable the clones are in action, but just putting words to it, which, this is always the thing I don't know about the Floney stuff is like, does Dave think, does Dave Faloni think that Pongrel is an exceptionally bad general and evil Jedi? Or is Paul Krell a stand in for, I mean, he's definitely. that. He's 100% those things. But is his, is his game plan actually that dissimilar from average Jedi who is standing behind clones as they get chopper? Or, you know, maybe he's standing

at the front, but is living while hundreds or thousands of clones die behind them, you know? Well, I think because, because Pong's ultimate, uh, uh, goal is, I want to go join Duku. I know. It's, it's, it's, it undercuts it. Like it, that I wish I knew. Do that reading. I'm still retaining the right to do the reading, that is, this is basically happening to all clones everywhere. But to your point about, like, does it normalize the forever war? I think, you know, it is, I think it is difficult to avoid the reading that the Jedi's participation in this war, including its decision to lead the clone army, is part of the corruption that ends with Palpatine's victory. So I think, you know, whether it's intended or not, I don't know, but I do think it ultimately

undermines that undermines the concept of the Forever War. It is a very specific, almost Spencer-Ackerman-like argument about war eroding democracy, you know, at war nationalism as an ideology, you know, completely eroding democratic constraints on authoritarianism. Well, this is kind of the thing I was wondering is, like, with the Clone Wars, because we've had our ups and downs with that series as, as you and our listeners have heard. The series has his ups and downs.

Yeah. Makes sense. But it's up, it's up. And I think right now I'm very up, just overall in terms of like where things are at at this juncture at the end of season five, start of season six. But one of the things that I sort of, when I think about the arcs of it and I sort of revisit where you've been, I do kind of wonder sometimes, like, did the show have a thesis from the start does it sort of stumble upon one as it goes because you also have the weird release order

and all that which complicates every discussion of it but like I sometimes like yeah the question like the question can't help it arise we do the show sometimes like we're doing readings of a show and projecting things into it and pulling things out of it but like one of the things I look at is we've you know seen five seasons of this thing and I'm curious where where you came out having seen the entire arc of the, you know, of the Star Wars animated series, like, do you think they arrive at a thesis of Star Wars politics, you know, by the time they've sort of had their, you know,

had their runtime? I do not. I think it goes back to the thing that we were discussing earlier where it's sort of bringing your own politics. Right. And it allows you to sort of project who you want to be or who you think the bad guys are on, you know, on the sort of political tableau of Star Wars because it is just such a generally such a sort of plain Republican, you know, small r republicanism versus authoritarianism style thing. Like I think it's just, I don't think the animated universe, but also because it is. supplementing the larger story, right? I mean, you know, Rebels is meant to help us bridge the gap between Revenge of the Sith and a New Hope. You know, Clone Wars is meant to help

us understand Anakin's fall from hero to villain. And I think Rebels does a good job of depicting, it's a lot more local than Clone Wars is, in part because the main character who's a child is, you know, he's sort of, his arc focuses on his home planning. So it's not quite, it's not quite pharynx and it's, you know, and it's sort of, it's, and it's, and it's distinctiveness. But, you know, there's never, I wouldn't say that there's necessarily a distinct political arc between both shows. I think both are trying to tell stories, you know, unlike, you know, comic books are constantly retconning themselves, right? Every, every couple of years, they have like, they wipe something out and they set a new status quo.

Star Wars has kept the same status quo and they sort of carefully, the way that they recon is they take events that you know happen and try to fit stuff in between the cracks. And I think Clone Wars and Rebels are both very good examples of that. I think it's telling that like you can do the, one of the big things Clone Wars does is indicate that clones are people and like and focus in on that the fact that that feels like it carries political weight is more of a reflection of the context that we're watching clone wars in in which the personhood the rights and personhood of people feel so uh on the edge so so so like ready to fall apart um that we can do that political reading not that you know when a new

Hope came out, we were not also deep in the muck around the rights and personhood of other people of different, you know, that that will continue to be a place of contestation. But I do think that there is like the, the viewer watching Clone Wars now and the viewer watching that show when it first came on the air in the 2000s, the late 2000, late 2000, when's Clone Wars season one come out? Whenever that hits, is watching those in different political contexts. And so things like in the final arc of season five, when there are protesters outside of the Jedi Temple saying to stop the war, we are living in a different time now than then. And there's different, I mean, there's some, there's some overlaps there. But I'm, I'm, you know, it speaks to the way in which

viewers can bring their own moment to a show like that, which I don't think undercuts what it does, but I think it, you know, it helps to indicate that like, when you make something like this, you are making an object that will be perceived across time and you can't necessarily account for what the reading is going to be. But I think that fundamental core thing of clones should be treated like people, hey, the Jedi probably could have helped pump the brakes on the dissent of the Republic or moments like earlier. One of our favorite moments in this show has been the realization that the people who work

at the Senate do not get paid well. the stuff about Padma's like maid and servant not having clean water is like a throwaway line and it's like okay those things can't be decontextualized

the show believes people should have clean water the show believes that if you're if you are fighting for a government you should be considered an individual and not thrown

into you know the trash it does believe those certain core things and those feel like they would stand time more than any one individual story element, I guess, you know? Yeah, I mean, look, you know, when the sequel, when the prequel trilogy came out,

it was in a particular political context and George Lucas certainly intended it to be a kind of critique of the war on terrorism. And now it has a different, like, I feel like every couple of days I see a tweet where like, you know, I thought Star Wars, this portrayal of like a democracy falling into fascism was really far-fetched. But now, I mean, like, he... This is the classic theory. When people say, like, oh, science fiction writer predicted something. It's like, no, he was talking about the thing that was having them.

Like, we bring our new, we bring our experiences to it. And that's also something that and or, I think, gets in a, like, really compelling way is that, you know, Mom Mothma and or, or, you know, at Luthan, everybody's bringing a particular, like, experience of the world to their connection to the rebellion that is different from the other characters, an orientation. I mean, y'all talked about how Mom Mothma is sort of like, she has this kind of like Hillary Clinton's persona in the Senate, even though she's, you know, secretly funding an armed rebellion. But then when she sees actual armed rebellion, she gets horrified. or, you know, Andor is politically indifferent in the same way that Jin Ursa was.

She's like, you know, I don't have the luxury of political opinions. Like, she literally says that. And that is, you know, again, like that's like a callback. It's now a callback. And when in the same way that like Luke fleeing to the Millennium Falcon while Obi-Wan is getting cut down by Dodd Vader is now a callback to Order 66, the sort of like retroactive retcon of these particular moments. like, you know, this, I mean, this is what's so wonderful about the show is that people

come to their ideological conclusions for very different reasons. They're not all, it's not, it's not all like insert this and this comes out. It's just, you know, and it's just wonderful to see the storytelling done, take it that seriously and done that well. What is the, I'm going to ask you one more question, which is just, what is the part of the world of Star Wars you would like to see filled in? with the quality and detail that we got from Andor. What is the story that's a great question?

Or the planet or the throwaway character. I guess let me give you the version of it that we got, which is what is the Clone Wars arc you wish this team could have, could take a shot at doing? Oh, man. I mean, it's just, that is such a good question. And I think, I think it's very difficult. There's the answer that I felt like I should give. which isn't necessarily

this ain't Jeopardy, you can give two answers I'm gonna give two answers I'm gonna give two answers I mean I think on some level the universe is crying out for a series that is focused on droids like we've talked about how seriously Andor takes droids I mean you look at like for example in Solo the idea that Lando is fucking his droid is played

as like a laugh line you know what I mean like which I'm not saying you need to bring I'm not saying you need to bring I'm not saying you need to bring droid fucking into it, but I am saying... Lando, wait, hold on, hold on, what? You've seen this movie, did you want that? I haven't!

I'm saying, I'm saying, I would like... This is the one we haven't seen. I would like the droid's perception of their own condition to be something that Star Wars explores a little bit more. Also, look, I won't, you know, if I were to do this, this would be a huge swing. It would be very difficult to do, but the way, One thing you could do with the sequel universe is you could do a New Jedi Academy.

You could do that series as animated with, you know, it would be Clone Wars-esque in terms of like trying to explain Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker. Like, why is he in exile? Why is Kylo Ren a Sith? You know, these, you know, you could do that series. You could tell that story and you would have, you know, that, that, I think it's probably the only moment is like Luke's cybernetic hand

on R2D2's body as like the ruins of the Jedi Temple are smoldering around him. You could do a Clone Wars series like that. Yeah, it does hit. I mean, look, JJ Abrams is a very able director. It's just that, you know,

he was, in my view, they were too focused on giving the fans what they wanted and not focused enough on being brave about their own project. but you could do an attempt if you were going to try to redeem the sequel series you could try to do

a series set in the New Republic era focused on the Jedi Academy that talks about how this relationship deteriorated how this person deteriorated how you know Ben's relationship with his parents went wrong you know is Leah neglecting him to try to build a government

is Han you know yes it's just like you could do that you could do it Oh, the cutaways Too laid See their divorce I want to see the divorce

Oh my God I need more domestic struggle It's right there I'm okay Well Disney's a really good answer I have another idea

But it's a secret It's a secret It's okay that's mine That I will tell you all off Off camera off mic But I will keep it to myself Until I'm ready to unveil it the world. Listen, you need an editor

connection. You let me know. I'll hook you out. All right, well, I think that will do it for tonight's episode. Adam. Thanks so much for joining us. Do you want to plug anything? What do you got to plug? Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for letting me ramble on far too much. I really appreciate it.

I love the show. You guys are great. I don't have anything to plug except for if you are also a soccer nerd, which I am. Um, the Atlantic has a World Cup newsletter, the great game that we are, uh, publishing right now. Um, and I, and it's not just me. It's, it's, it's writers like Clint Smith and Adam Harris and Frankfurt or a bunch of other guys. Um, so, you know, if you're interested in that, you know, please sign up. That's it. Otherwise, why should, why should people care about the World Cup? Give me the three minute elevator pitch. I care, but I want to hear this. There is no institution that explains, the modern global capitalist economy, like world football. Wow. That's a pitch for you know the audience. This is a good pitch.

You want the question. You want forced labor. You want race and racism. You want, you know, it is just all there. You want class. Like, it's just all there. It's an incredible, an incredibly dark story, but it's there. And it's the great game is the name of the,

the series, the podcast, the newsletter? Thank you guys so much for having me. I'm such a fan. This is such a fun experience. It was really delightful. Thank you for everything. I'm going to ask one last very random question. Adam, did you ever see the movie FIFA made about itself starring Tim Roth?

No. I did not see that. I believe it got pulled, but it is basically, because it got pulled? I think they tried to memory hole it. Basically, like, I'm not sure it had its full theatrical release. It's not streaming anywhere. It's basically, like, half of it is like everyone always said that, like, football, that's never going to get you on. What?

They're French. What? But then, then the latter half of the movie is... Girard D. Perdue is the villain in this? Is that really what's happening? And then the latter half of the movie is so many people telling Roth's set blotter. Dude, you're just so honest and good, and you just love football so much. But, like, you keep hanging out with people who were going to cause you to get accused of corruption. And he's like, no, they are my friends, and I just love football so much.

I must do things my way as I see fit. The bag for this must have been incredible. Like, in... Oh, like, this movie looks so expensive. It is so expensive looking. Like, just in terms of, like, you could probably... write a thesis like like a grad school thesis on this piece of propaganda that you're describing right now somebody should someone should someone probably

has but that's obviously you know now you're gonna have to do a podcast on the FIFA movies start tomorrow the one heat minute of the FIFA propaganda movie it's called United Passions the birth of the World Cup oh my god all right on that note yep I I don't mean to take the Lord's name in vain on your family podcast that I've already cursed up the storm on. I'm sorry. Our family podcast is every week I edited it and I go, I got to stop cursing so much. What is it with me?

I'm sorry. I don't curse all day at work. I speak like a Corellian mechanic. I don't know what to tell you. Clap, clap, clap. All right, well, Adam, thanks so much for swinging by. That will do it for tonight's episode. And as, you know, if you're curious about some of the things we alluded to, like Duku's radicalization and how many toes that Yoda's got, all of these things are discussed and analyzed in depth in our Patreon Q&As, which you can get access to at patreon.com slash civilized is five bucks a month and also help support the show.

And, you know, honestly, like, it means so much to us also just to know that, like, the show means a lot to our audience. I think we've got one more thing coming up with Andor. I think we're going to take a deep dive before the end of this month into the soundtrack, which has been a major talking point with Andor. We're going to have a special guest to help us sort of dig into that. And then next month, we are going to be back to, well, one, we're going to be back to our bi-weekly schedule. We're already back on our semi-weekly schedule.

But we're also going back to the Clone Wars. And let me tell you, season six opens with a bang. It's a banger. It's a banger. It really is. Also, we're going to, I've already confirmed this to some people, not privately, but just like, someone's messaged me. Like, hey, you're ever going to do the tabletop game that you were supposed to do? And yes, we are.

And we're going to do it soon. And I suspect that will also be and or adjacent. There will be a guest who comes on and helps facilitate that. So look forward to that. All right. Well, until next time, please rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. And please join us as we return to the Clone Wars and see that whole part of the universe, that whole era. Just keep getting worse.

all right the backup is running all right yeah so like as long as we're killing time here while your file renders you know I'm just curious what do you think was going on with the hat swap you're a guy who watches a lot of soccer did that

does that have jersey swap vibes to you like two players just like hey respect no I just I actually like the thing that it reminded me of was like y'all always talking about how the imperial agents on ferricks have like undercover cop vibes like strong undercover cop vibes um that to me is like them like well they'll never be able to match our description we swap the hats up they're going

undercover they'll be like oh that guy was wearing a green hat but he's wearing a gray hat that's not the same guy the empire brightest minds best and brightest just you know they're doing secret agent stuff i don't that that was the only thing that occurred to sauce finest. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. This is it right here. I saw someone say that Mosque, their theory

was that Mosque noticed that his hat was better than Karn's, and so he swapped his better hat for Karn's worst hat so that his commander would have a good hat. The scenes where Karn, like the speech scene is like so perfect.

It's unbelievable. I wanted to ask you what your favorite, if you had any, like, favorite favorite moment of Andor that like is just stuck in your brain in a particular way. The first three episodes where it's like

it turns into like a police raid gone wrong. Yeah. Like that is so it's so good. It's just so well done. Like it's just like it's such an incredible thesis statement for the politics of the show. The internal politics of the show

and also like the political orientation of the show where the cops are just like full ineffective and just like eager to use their authority it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's such an obvious callback to you know the things that animated the protests in 2020 this is what I mean what I say it you can resist the bad reading by giving material detail right fundamentally this is a show that thinks some police fucking suck it might not you know I think we can then continue and say here's a structural critique blah blah blah blah blah blah blah but you can't read that and be like the cops are in the right here it is also

unnecessary like it is it is so obviously like nothing none of this has to happen um but it's not like the cops you know you you understand the sort of javert like fanaticism of kahn who is like i'm trying to do a good job yep like i'm trying to uphold like you you he's not he's not just, like, he's obviously, you know, a creepy fascist, but he has a motivation that is understandable, you know, and his, his, these guys are not, like, he's not just a character, a caricature. Like, he's a character who we follow. Even his boy is like, it's like, he's like both a much more obvious, like, street cop, but he's also, you know, he's eager for Karn's approval. He wants Karn to like him. Yes. You know what I mean? Even when he's the guy. When he calls him.

I've listened to. Sorry, go ahead, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, when he calls him, like,

you know, in the middle of the night, and he, and it's like he's calling his best friend, but he's also like, yes, sir, like,

whatever you need, sir. And I'm like, oh, bro. It's so much. It's just, yeah. The set designer

who put those Clone Trooper action figures on his night, on his, on his dresser deserve every. No one fucked me up is the realization that the actor

your place Karn is like about my age. He's in his late 30s. And you know, I don't know what age Karn is, but you assume probably similar. And the realization that like, yo, this is not like a guy in the early stages of an unimpressive like middling career. This is like a guy pushing up to 40 living with like living with his mom in his bedroom with his action figures wanting to be taken seriously as a cop. Like, it gets so much grimmer. It's worse. Like, when you get to that point, because this whole thing, I was like, okay, so, yeah,

he's the, he's the young wannabe who, like, wants to rise through the ranks. And it's like, well, all that's right except for the young part. Like, he's the guy who, like, no, the bus left a long time ago. And he kind of knows it. You know, like, he's just still waiting for his big moment of, like, when he's, When do I get to be the officer figurine in this little collection leading Rex and Cody? Uh-huh. Rob, this is a point for something you should probably check out.

I realized after we finished the series that I knew him from something already. The British historical drama and romance show Poldark, which is about a mine, like a mining town. And like the, he plays the shitty cousin who like falls in love with and marries the main character. characters like childhood sweetheart and the main characters to like come back home to the British mining town to obviously to run the mine his father owned the mine it's what it's you know it's a British romance and and and sorry what is the actors in Kyle Kyle Solar is just the most like it riled me up when I watch it the first time I was like I want to punch this man in the face through the television and so the fact that I got through that whole that whole I

went through like the first two seasons of that or something and then the fact that he again is someone who I want to punch in the face. It's unbelievable. Incredible rancid vibes. Shoutouts to Kyle Solar. Well, one interesting to just... We're never going to end this. We're just going to keep going.

There is one interesting theory I've seen is that people, I've seen some people interpreting it as like... So, mosque is abandoned during this massacre and it's basically caught up in it as, like, the empire just goes, like, berserk and starts, like, gunning people down. And there's some people interpreting him just, like, sitting there like shocked at the end

just like drinking straight out of a flask as like he's sort of like not radicalized but like certainly kind of ideologically shattered for a second there that like I don't see it I think he wishes he was holding a gun like I think he wishes he was up there

with the snipers I really do this was my big day yeah also where'd his boy go like yeah well this is your chance to be Biff to Cyril and Dedra's McFly family

great in a way this is going to be a very controversial comment but in a way they're like the dark side of Luke Skywalker in a new hope where he's like I want to go to the Imperial Academy. Yes yes

they were the ones who went yeah they're the ones who went they're the ones who went like they they wanted adventure they wanted excitement they wanted to be heroes and it brought them to you know brutalizing small-town folks on Paris.

Which is what Luke would have been doing if he'd actually go on to the Imperial Academy. Uh-huh. That's true. If only Uncle Owen had the money to send them to the Imperial Academy one year earlier, it would all be different. Well, it's so funny in the World Star Wars that, like, the first day, like, the first day where we meet Luke,

he's like, I just want to go to the Imperial Academy. Next day, he's like, I'll fly the bomber, destroy the Imperial Space installation. Like, yeah, they kill us out and uncle. But it's just the, just the flip of like, man, being its high fighter probably would be the best thing in the world. I couldn't imagine a better thing for me to like, I'm going to kill about a million people today.

That is very strong 19 year old boy vibes. Yes. 19 year old boys are trying to figure it out. That's true. You're just trying to have an, you're just trying to like have an adventure. What is the other fuckers are going to let me fly a fighter plane. Hey, y'all got fighter planes? I'm in.

Guys, I hope you were able to record this stuff. We got it. We got it. We got on backup. It's probably not as good quality, but. I really have to go. I'm sorry. No worries.

Just send over the file. But I will send it over. Thank you so much for having me on. It was a blast. Thank you. Have a great rest of your night. Bye, y'all. I'm going to be able to be.

I'm going to be. ...you know. ...and... ...and... ...their... ...theid... ...the... Thank you.