A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 64: Breaking Ranks and Out of Darkness (Rebels 06 and 07)

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

With this pair of episodes, it seems accurate to say we've truly entered Rebels proper. Not because some production technique has finally hit its stride, or because we've reached some grand revelation, or seen a major swing in character development. Instead, it's because these are just two totally familiar, stock procedural episode formats: "Kid goes undercover" and "two people argue and bond in the wilderness." And good news: They're pretty good episodes! Not quite season finale level material or anything, but solid, fun, and well executed. And hey: space waffles! Next Time: Rebels 08 & 09 (Empire Day and Gathering Forces) Show Notes Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Ricardo Contreras (@a_cado_appears) Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)  

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zakney, joined by Ali Akampura, Austin Walker, and Natalie Watson. Today we have a pair of coming-of-age adventures for the ghost's youngest team members, Ezra and Sabine. Breaking Ranks is a classic young adult story set in the Empire's Military Academy on Lothel as Ezra goes under cover as a cadet to steal imperial secrets, and out of darkness has Sabine and Hara clashing over Hera's secrecy as head of their rebel cell. Sabine feels like her lack of access implies a lack of trust and responsibility, so naturally she and Hara find themselves stranded in a monster of the weak scenario that will require what's that? Yes, a lot of trust and cooperation

if they want to survive. And explosives. And yeah, heavy artillery. callback explosives, by the way, we'll get there. Yeah. We know those explosives. So we should just summarize breaking ranks here. And I think to start off, you know, if you go back to the episode we did in our Clone Wars era on The Box, one thing we all agreed on was that the Box would make a great school for kids. And apparently Grand Moff Tarkin agreed because he built a military academy where the only class they have is the Box. Yep.

Uh-huh. They don't seem to teach those other kids anything. It's like... Well, it's on your schedule today. I have box. I have box. Box again. Yeah.

And if you're good at the box, advanced. And box two. And if you're good at the box, you get to be like an administrative assistant or a candy striper effectively around the Imperial Academy. This is their security background check. Yeah. It is like if you're, hey, you good at 3D platformers kid. And if you are, you carry unescorted. top secret documents around, like, secure areas.

And if you're bad at it, they give you to a hulking brute who gives off strong petter-ass vibes. He has a for real Dickens name, too. It's Mr. Grint. Mr. Grint. And it's like, yeah, that's just a bleak house character. That's just a great expectation. I don't want to be stuck in after school with Mr. Grant, please.

You got to help me get out of the box today. I have to tell you, and we'll get to a Faloni zone later, it is the box. It intentionally is echoing the box and the Citadel training stuff from Clone Wars. They say outright, this was our inspiration for this. So those are the vibes. It does a thing, it has an opening also that it's like one of my least favorite opening types of all TV shows. Like, whenever a TV show does this, I am willing to bet money that the episode is about to decide. it's the

what's this character doing this wild and unexpected scenario and then you get the 48 hours earlier they don't do that here but it does open it's a cold open which I just realized we get cold opens in this show

which we did getting Clone Wars I felt it on this one I hadn't thought about it before but I was like whoa here we are we're in the fucking action let's go right like I'm waiting for the for the CSI Miami me, wow, you know, sunglasses on moment and like cut to credits because that's what they do so they don't have credits in this show. They just do like the rebel sting. But it's set up in

that way where it's like, oh my God, the character pulls off his helmet. It's Ezra. That's our guy. Why is he in the Nazi youth? You know why he's there. Of course you know why. It's up for hijigs. It's hijinks. Explain what this episode is, Rob, and then we'll talk. yeah he's like it is revealed that the star cadet of this class at the appeal academy is none other than our pal Ezra but everyone's calling him dev and he is there to steal basically a decoder ring from in from ISB agent callus's quarters and problems begin immediately because oh no like he had like

this is a kid who's famously lonely and doesn't have like a peer group he hangs out with and what does the academy hook him up with? A peer group. Bros. And he immediately has a best friend and then also he immediately has a boy's love love triangle is what he has. He immediately has like

he has a best friend with a swoopy haircut and then he gets another best friend with a mysterious past. Who will win Ezra's heart? It makes him immediately. He has the worst

lie ever in the first like minute of this episode where he's like, Dev Morgan, that's me. And his friend is like, wow, you're really feeling stressed out after hearing the worst lie he's ever heard in his life.

Well, and then later, he just says he's a Jedi to the other guy who you just met. He literally just says it out loud. I could not believe. I was like, no, you have no. Just be chill. You are being hunted. You are being a hunted out there. Oh, I have my ways.

You know what I mean? Like, you've got to be a little coy about it. No, he's like, I'm training to be a Jedi. This show doesn't do coy. It doesn't. So, like, the thing is, all of us are watching this. And, like, I think we have, like, various undercover spy shows, like, rattling around the back of our brain. And it's like, you don't reveal this much to people like that, like, because the other dude.

So the person who makes him, Leonis. Great name, by the way. Catches him mid-heist in Callas's office and is like, hey, that's cool. I'm here under false pretenses too. I'm trying to solve the mystery of my missing sister who went to the academy and never came out. And what we learned very quickly is that the reason they're all doing the box is because there's a certain bell curve you get with box performance. But if you're just too consistently good, if you're too far out on the right end of the box, they begin to think maybe you're a little force assistant. And then they call the inquisitors on you.

And they call them on you. And also, are you being brought into them? Are you going to be broken and turned into, like, are we getting his sister in the future as a sister? Like, third sister or whatever? Exciting. That's exciting to think about to me. Also, real quick, the droid has been spray painted in imperial colors. Yeah, chopper is undercover.

Love it. Looks great. The reason they need the Dakota ring, Hera and Canaan need to know what the empire is up to with a load of khyber crystals. Uh-huh. In fact, giant khyber crystals of the type that we saw in Udipal. Yeah. And so, Leonis and Ezra team up to get to the bottom of the mysteries of the Academy. and things sort of escalate into their big escape plan, being complicated by the presence of, like, the one really snot-nosed kid also being, like, they're sort of stuck with him on the day the entire heist is supposed to take place.

They make a really smart choice with that kid, by the way, which is, I think, a season two or three Clone Wars episode would have had that kid be in 30% more scenes and be a lot more annoying. And in this, they were like, we need to set up that there's a shithead and he needs to be in the wrong place at the wrong time later. And then he needs to be dealt with to show that this character doesn't fuck around. And that's it. We don't need to have him cut into time and we can be doing six space fights. We don't need to have him cut into time when the three main boy characters can be bickering or like trying to bond and figure out if they trust each other. We don't need this like extra element except that he's trouble and he can move in the same spaces that they move in. because he's in their class. And that's it. And I think that that's just like, so far,

that's a thing that has been impressing me about rebels is that they have the sort of practiced procedural television, like pacing and stuff down, which I think goes a long way to just making it a very watchable TV show. Do they even ever show the other kids' faces, or do we only see the main trio? I thought we got that shithead, but maybe I'm wrong. because that was something I noticed in the first scene in rewatching it in them because those are the only three who take their helmets off and it was such a clever way of just being like here's the only people you need to care about it doesn't take his helmet off little green I don't think so I think you're right I think he just says the green helmet and they don't need to do more than that they do a lot of interesting stuff with faces in this episode we'll get to the space battle later but there's some wild shit that links up with something Rob said episodes ago and just that long story short the escape attempt is complicated it like goes a little bit wrong and Leonis doesn't make the escape with them instead Leonis goes back into the belly of the beast to try and see if he can using this escape effort which he's sort of improbably been identified as the hero of the story. Can he leverage the empire's trust and interest in him

to figure out what happened to his sister? And so Leonis goes back in resuming his solo undercover mission, uh, while Ezra is reunited with his found family. Um, yeah, I mean, listen, again, I had such a sinking feeling at the start of this thing. I was like, oh, this is going to be the most kids cartoon ass episode. Uh, if, if it's idea of a twist is to have him showing up in Imperial Academy, that's just not, that's, that's, that's kind of soft. Uh, but the fact that the real twist is that, like, he's on the baby tier of like plotting and that there's somebody there who's like running a much bigger risk and running a much longer game. Yeah, that checked to Ezra.

Like, that was, I loved that. That was great. I love when Ezra was wrong and got checked. It was good. Yeah, agreed. I also think it's like a, it's a, there's like some smart work happening here with the divide of characters. Like the whole team feels involved with, an element of this that we didn't mention

yet was that Zeb and Sabine. or like outside waiting for the pickup basically of the of the data um and i just feel like we get the sense that the entire ghost crew is active in this bigger it's not a heist right but it's like i mean it is a heist but it's like this multi-stage plan and i think that it does a pretty good job of doing the like we're cutting between different parts of the action there's clearly the primary a plot but we care about these other people and their perspective and like it's okay for zeb and sabine to be in the backseat on this one and it doesn't feel like they're not being used right or something. It feels like it's just not their episode.

Yeah. I think, you know, also, I think you hit on something there. Like, this is such, there was a time when shows like this ruled, ruled television. Right. And we just don't see their like anymore. Where it is, this is effectively a very a team constructed show or very mission impossible constructed show. And you're going to have episodes focusing on the different members of the crew. But they all fill different roles in these, in these stories. And so it's, it is okay for the show's purposes to have an episode where Zeb and Sabine are mostly there as you're hardened like they're kind of the heavies of the group right like if anyone's hardened killers in this bunch it's it's kind of them and so it's okay to have them effectively just chilling waiting

for their moment to go in and raise a ruckus and if need be kicked down the door and save Ezra it's okay for them to be in sort of a passive role like that because it still feels like they are involved without needing to give them equal screen time I feel like the evolution And a lot of, like, they don't make shows like this for one thing as much anymore. Partly because, you know, what is cheaper is what if you invest all these different abilities on one or two characters who are just like super humans, right? Like, this is the, if we go to the, you know, just because YouTube is figured I like watching mentalist clips sometimes, so I watch a lot of mentalist clips. And it's like, what if this one guy just knows everything and can do everything? Right.

Right. And there's only a very few things he can't do. And that became the model. but there used to be like in the 70s just wall-to-wall shows of like what if a bunch of cool hot people work together to do cool things? And now you can still do that but there is that

it seems often there is the centerpiece you can't pull out. And as we learn in the next episode you can even pull Ezra out of the show and they'll do a two piece. I mean Ezra's in the next episode but he's mostly in the next episode is comic relief and fuck up

and like Canaan's barely in the next episode at all. Any of those pieces can shift around here but it's still a crew-based show in contrast to Clone Wars where, I mean, Clone Wars was even more the, like, the camera can go to any of these characters, but in exchange, you did not have that sense that there was a core crew. It really felt like a one-off show. Like, it did not feel like it was relevant to, often, to the continuity of the rest of the show. It was like a one-off singular thing. Austin, am I just a fool here for projecting the fact that the two characters are Morgan and Kel, their two names? undercover, it's Morgan and Kell. Am I fool for thinking like, hey, somebody's giving a little shout

out to battle tech novels there? Oh, maybe. I could have, I mean, I guess... Because this has a stackpole-ass vibe. I'm curious, Rob, where they're going to keep pulling from in terms of hard sci-fi or, like, other sci-fi spaces. Again, like, I don't think it ahead of ourselves, but the next episode is doing very much an aliens thing. And here, I think we don't just have the sort of like we're getting imperial cadet type shit in a way that I guess we got the Citadel Arkin rookies

and stuff but there's still a much different sense something about Camino makes it feel like it doesn't exist in the world it's because it's out in the middle of nowhere and it's not connected to anything else whereas this is a big base in the center of Lothel we get that great shot early on

of seeing it like dominate the skyline in the very first shot of the episode as they zoom in, and it feels like they're pulling from a different subset of sci-fi stories in some ways. So, yeah, I mean, and also, Rob, it does end with a mech blowing up. So I do, I do, you know, maybe you're right. Maybe there's a direct reference there. Something else I did want to pull out here, too, is, and we just have to talk about this, is that, like, this is now a recurring thing.

the republic became the empire and the thing that changed was instead of growing your child your child soldiers you draft them from the public I guess you know if they're drafted you recruit them he says like you all entered here as children and you will leave here

soldiers but now that I say it out loud could have been like you were boys and now you'll be men I read it as like you were like you were like literally physically very young when you entered here and now but and I was like well they are they are they get in well yeah I mean I think that they're I think so we saw with with there also that like you can you can sign up but like they're learning to be storm

I mean that's the other half I've seen the stormtroopers before they ain't getting out the box they're not doing the double jokes no they're not do it no these this is the hardest facility stormtroopers have ever had to deal with it what happened what is it how how aren't stormtroopers better scouts well it's like cup scouts because this like gets you i don't know like into high school i guess and then and then you like let it go oh i see kind of just let let it all you're training goes away you forget how to tie knots once they ship you out to mim bomb or whatever minbond and you're like in the shit it doesn't matter because like i'm not double jumping on crates on flying crates anymore all i have to do is

run through the smoke firing my gun I think it's generational in that you have the clones right and they're super soldiers and then you win the war and you know young kids of across the galaxy are like yeah fuck the Jedi

I'm going to go for the empire you have your serial cards who are enlisting who can't do shit like we're not built for this they they you know and now we're in the third generation And the empire is like, we got to start them young. We got to put them in the box. We're going to make sure they can double jump.

And, Ali, none of these generations have time to come to fruition. Like, again, we're going back to Austin's 20 years time. Right. They don't have time to, like, this generation of stormtroopers is not going to come to fruition. Like, reading this timing correctly, like, if these kids are this age or this point in history, there's not that much longer before the empire begins to, like, come undone in the face of the rebellion. So, like, they've identified that they've stood up this entire army that might be real shaky. This is like a paradox game, Rob, where you're like, if I just had 10 more years, I could get the next tier of infantry up, and we would win this fucking war.

I just need to delay this 10 years, and I can't do it because I have their training. I have them in training mode, but I need the time to get them out. And, no, you don't, you don't have it. You don't have it. You're going to get fucking swept because you didn't get your supreme. you know, you're level three Stormtroopers. If every stormtrooper on Endor has been through the box,

the Ewarks are in deep shit. Right. Right. You don't have those stormtroopers on Endor. These, yeah. You've got, like, you good at riding a bike? I'd get out there. I mean, like, are you okay? Okay, fine. Like, then guard the most critical facility in the empire.

100%. Um, do y'all want to go to the Faloni zone? Because the Flonny zone, I feel like always. Some extra heat. We are jumping into this. This is Rebels Recon, 105, inside Breaking Ranks. And we're going to start at 208.

3, 2, 1. Go. Stormtroopers are among the most iconic characters of Star Wars, and this is the first time we've seen their training. We talked with cast and crew about Academy Life and Trooper Design. In breaking ranks, we see how hard cadets train. to become stormtroopers. Do you think that adult stormtroopers would be able to, you know, completely saying? No, no, no, because kids have that whole, like, I'll try anything.

Ezra. Plus, I don't like troopers at all, so I'm going to say, no, they can't do half of the things that they think they can. The training for these kids. He is just Ezra. He's just Ezra. Traps from the Clomwood episode of the box. Yes. A little bit on that, a little bit on the-

Get Embo in here. Yards from the Clombers as well. Some fans don't agree with me about this, but. The clone trooper is at a base level a significantly better trooper than a storm trooper. Absolutely. Why is that, Dave? They're bred to do it. They're bred to do it.

They're bred to do it. Where storm troopers are like, they have to serve. What? What? We need X amount of storm. Unlike clone troopers. Really quickly, I don't care how you get them. They like it.

Just pass them through, graduate them through, and get them on the front lines right away. What are some of the things that you would take into consideration when you're designing the stormtroopers? You want to make it very similar to the way they look in the films. We discussed whether we would do like Ralph McCorry-style stormtroopers. That looks so wild. They're pretty big departure from what we know in the movie. You start to feel like it's an alternate reality. Killian and I just...

Macquarie's designs are way more... Yes, right. Yes. ...but simplified so they weren't photorealistic. And we did discuss helmet scale because we know those heads look kind of big, but Stormtrooper helmets are... They're huge! It's definitely a statement and it was something that we did go back and forth on.

Last week you sent us questions about Rise of the Old Master So we went to the story team and talking about to be real disappointing. Get ready. So Pablo, Mike underscore Audet and a lot of rebels fans want to know. How can the Inquisitor do that with Luminara? Does he have other dead Jedi? The Inquisitor's plan with Luminara was pretty gruesome and exactly how big that plan is and whether or not involves any other Jedi.

Well, I'm not going to answer that. But exactly what was going on with Luminara, it's kind of tricky to explain. So the question? So that Luminara was captured during Order 66 instead of outright executed. She was taken to Stygian Prime and was probably executed right there in that prison cell. And what Canaan was censored was the remnants of her signature in the force, which probably amplified by the presence of her preserved body in that cell. What Canaan saw was a hologram, a very vivid hologram. And you may be wondering, I've never seen a hologram that vivid before.

Well, actually, if you look at the Clone Wars Fourth Season, the arc where Obi-Wan is Rayco Hardeen, teams up with Campbell. I mean, there are holograms in that episode that are quite vivid. So that's what you saw in that episode. That was one of the Inquisitor's plans. And I say one of the inquisitor's plans, you know. Inquisitor is pretty resourceful, and we'll see that the lengths that he goes

in order to trap a Jedi. Because... Thanks, Papa. Because that's corny. If you program the hologram to, like, sit down and, like, look sad and then go into her body, like, what is the point of that whole... Right. Fucked up.

That's that's she looks sad she looks resigned you didn't fucking program that that's bullshit that's bullshit anyway uh philoni being like the clones were born and bred for it whereas the stormtroopers signed up and they just have to do it is not i get sometimes someone's like asking you a question you just have to talk but dave the clone troopers also did not have the choice more so from the stormtroopers Yeah he really He was really giving

This is this is their This is their life's purpose This is their this is what they want to do This is what they're happiest When they're being soldiers In his defense they also think that Like the entire setup The way they are set up

Is that they do think Like because no other options are presented to them It's like Oh man like race horses Love to run don't worry about all the euthanization and such that goes along with it like it is it is in their nature and like the clone the clone troopers are very much in that in that mode whereas it does sort of seem like in the what the empire is building is a conscript army and it is like it's a combination

conscript army army and like gendarmery where it's we are taking these places and we're going to skim off a percentage of the local population and turn them into the police to keep the rest of their fellow, their fellows in line. And so, like, I do think the point was badly made, but I do think there's a major qualitative difference we are saying between, like, the unholy, like, demon forge, the Camino represents in some ways. And then what the empire is doing, which is how do we fill the ranks that the clones used to fill, and how do we do that in a way that advantages us in consolidating our

power in all these places we are building out? yeah totally um the which is like partly why i do wish we got a little bit more on the people who seem to wash out of this right because the other way to think about some of this is like does it hit the point where they're doing the same thing we kind of maybe talked about this in a previous episode that the jedi were doing with the paddolans which is like you know what get the fuck out there i don't care that you didn't complete the box like like we are I'm not, I don't care anymore. Like this is, there's a difference between maybe officer training and stormtrooper training

at a certain point. We talked about this maybe with Solo also, right? We're like, in Solo, Han was like, I want to be a pilot. And like, he started through pilot training. And then eventually they were like, you're going to hold this rifle and go to hell. You know, we're going to put you in Warhammer, actually, is where you're going. So yeah, I think I would love to see more of that. Maybe we'll get some more of that.

I mean, there was an important revelation about one of our characters too here, right? which is, I think it's in this one. Maybe it, is it in this one or in the next one? Where Sabine, okay, it's the next one. It's not this one. Weird that she didn't bring it up here. In the next episode, Sabine says that she did go to the Imperial Academy, which was that previous time that she was like, oh, yeah.

When I got to Tier 5, the Imperial Academy in a previous episode, that was not a lie. That was the truth. So I would have loved to actually, did she go through this training? Did she also? Yeah, did she like prep as her? and be like, okay, so there's a box. There's a box.

That's going to be like every day you're in that box. It kind of feels like that's a different academy. Yeah. I think the Imperial Academy on Mandelor is like an honor student sort of thing. Mandelor? She said it was on Mandelor. Yeah, she said it was on Mandelor. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Well, we see that lady, too, in this episode, the minister who's going around. And she's in this episode. She pops up. She's walking the halls. I didn't even notice that. Yeah, no, she's, she's there. And so she's also graduated that academy.

And I'm telling you that academy is spelled the French way. Effectively. Like, that is the type of academy that they are, that they are talking about. Not the, all right, kids, jump on these platforms and shoot at each other. Academy. I'm excited to see. I'm excited to see what her training was like or what her experience was like of the, of the, of the, empire as someone on Mandelor, seemingly of Mandalorian background, or at least wearing

Mandalorian armor? Who could say? Can we talk about the epic save that Leonis makes, preventing the disaster here? Because Ezra's heist goes perfectly smoothly, and he's just going to walk out of the office with that thing. And Leonis saves him from tripping the document removal alarm effectively. And, you know, basically tells him, you're not to find a different way. to get this stuff, get this stuff out of here. And it was kind of a cool thing because like the security in this place seems so lax and loose that like you fall into the, the empire can't do shit. Like they're incompetent across the board. And it's just kind of a cool nod that like, hey, they have some crafty traps here though for, is a place that like looks like even less

secure than maybe it actually is. Yeah. It almost feels like it's less secure because this is like because it's more secure because of like the people who are here and like the type of information that's being held here. You'd be crazy to try it. Yeah, exactly. Like they're like embedded here. Like this is like HQ in a way that's like they're at home here. This is like their turf that they're not worried about people, you know, trying to penetrate. You get to that feeling of like, um, the, the walls are so big that you can, like, let your guard down. You know, you're so safe that you don't have to work. Only the people I trust are allowed back here, like these 14-year-olds who hopped on the box good.

So, but of course, that's part of it, right? That's a classic thing of children's media is that, like, people underestimate kids. Kids can get places that other than adults can't because they are ignored and belittled. And so that gives them certain sorts of access. Force powers. I mean, that's the other thing, right? So he tells, he tells him, oh, tells Leonis, oh, I, I'm training to be a Jedi. I have my ways. I need you to distract Talis while I climb through the vents, Mission Impossible style. And then he force grabs the disc to like do the mission right. He force grabs the decoder disc out of his laptop. He hits

the eject key somehow. With the laptop closed, which I don't, I guess it's a physical eject key. and then force pulls it up to him in the vent. And we get the classic, like, Ken Leonis keep Callis distracted by telling him that he has to sign for her pod racer parts. Hey boss, your pod racer parts are here. They need you to sign for it. I brought the thing for you to sign.

Extremely funny, bad lie, terrible lie, miserable. But sure. Fun to see Callis just being around, not being used. And the Inquisitor also. shows up here to be like, hey, we have the, you know, they basically say, again, they identify kids who are going to be sent to the Inquisitor. And it's like, okay, yeah, like these characters are in the ecology of these spaces. They're around right now. And so they're going to show up in episodes, even if all they have is like three lines, you know. So I enjoy that. Can we talk about

the space battle? Hell yeah. Which, you know, I felt, I think in the rankings of how we felt, about various Clone Wars things, I would often be in second or third place in terms of like what an episode just decides to do a space battle. And it's just like, like, Rob, you always loved when it was like, we're just going to spend 10 minutes doing a space battle that's really well done. And I often was like, yeah, cool, but I was definitely lower than you. And there were definitely times when I was even lower on that list. I'm at the top of the list this week.

I think this looks incredible. We get this, this, eventually he gets the day to this. He sends it out. He tells, he sends a recording of himself via chopper to Zeb and Sabine. And he's like, I got to stay in here. We're running game. We have another secondary objective now. I'm staying behind.

Send this stuff off to Hera and Canaan. We get a really good, the kind of B plot here for Canaan has been, he's freaking out because he feels like he can't protect. I love that B plot. It's so good. the thing of like him and hera up in the ship waiting to get the intel so they can go run and destroy these khyber crystals that have been stolen destroy the transport yeah they're trusting Ezra with a really really really big part of a critical mission for them like ideologically and yeah and and you know potentially like they're going to get a lot of money out of this who knows yeah like truly if Ezra was never going to turn on them this is the moment yeah Yeah. Yeah. And Canaan's like stressed. He's worried. Dad is stressed. Dad is worried. Yeah. Hera's right there. Yeah. Their vibe is so good. And also we get Hera as like, we're doing the mission, dude. Like, yeah. I need you to calm down. I know you're worried about our boy. He's going to be okay. We've done a good job training him. This is the mission. The mission is he's in danger right now. I love when Hera kicks into that mode

She does it again in the next episode Where she's just like We're capable Like you need to like Get your head straight and just trust me Or just like trust what's in front of us And like let's do this It's such a good quality of her character

And Canaan's insecurities are so at the He's able to bring him to the four When he's alone with Hera That like if in the scenes where it's like them as a group We get first We get pilot episode Kane a lot, right? Like the omnacompetent warrior,

the leader of the group, the field captain of the group. And it is in these moments of like handling the waiting, handling the responsibility. I think this is the other thing. It is in these moments of like handling the responsibility of having other people go do things that Canaan can't go do and share the risk himself.

That he struggles pretty badly in those moments. And yeah, you get to see like, okay, these are the moments where like Harry's actually the backbone of this operation because like that that level of like being in charge that's very easily with her and it says really heavily on canaan you get the sense that she's she knows this she has it in her in a way that's like yeah sometimes we jump into hyperspace and leave the team behind because that was always the plan and that's just we're going to commit to that

I am I am like good at sticking to the plan even though it's uncomfortable in a way that Canaan even doesn't feel like he's as good at that not to be like she's a hardened you know no it wasn't cruel but she has that venerancy to her yeah but it's also like a trust in that in in the idea that she she will be able to come back or that like Ezra will be able to complete this this you know individual mission that he's like set out for himself and it's trusting like putting one foot in front of the other and and just focusing on that she doesn't leave him in a way that's like well like got what we need and above everything yeah no totally you know it she she leaves with compassion and and knowing

that Ezra is also there by his own choice like Ezra is there because uh and she trusts Ezra's agency and like his own decision making on that. And she said she's like, all we can do now is complete the mission and then get back as soon as possible. Like head down. Let's get it done. And then they pop out of hyperspace and you get this

incredible shot of the like the asteroid field and like the dust cloud with like the galactic core, the light of the galactic core, like that long white disc that you see sometimes cutting across. the screen, the horizon, that's kind of what it evokes, and you get the, these are like big three transport ships that have a bunch of tie fighters docked with them. And, and they go to the space fight. And I got to say, we talked about this, we talked about this in the first

episode of Rebels that we covered. They were like, oh, I'm excited to play with the toys. I'm excited to play with the toys. And I was like, I think I'm going to end up being like also excited that they're playing with these toys because these were my toys as a little boy, right? And when I say the toys, I mean the tie fighters and the sounds that tie fighters make and the sounds that blasters from this era make and the visuals of diving straight down at the three transport vessels from the top, all of that stuff hits for me and the musical cues. This episode is them pulling on the John Williams stuff and like tinkering with it and dropping it in in different ways that I thought were really interesting.

because we don't get that in Clone Wars that often, right? We get, like, a few key things. And to its credit, Clone Wars music rules and is distinctive in a way not too dissimilar from how and or didn't want to just use John Williams' score stuff, right? But I think what's happening here is, like, better than what happens in Rogue One, where they're chasing John Williams or solo, but, like, can't quite stick the landing and don't know how and when to deploy the right things. I think about that ridiculous sting in, or not saying that ridiculous,

musical beat in solo when they first get to the Millennium Falcon and like they're about to go on that trip they're about to go on that heist and like nevertheless they're playing like we just got back from the heist victory music because they're like trying to you know look it's the it's the Millennium Falcon it's the ship you know I mean that's not how I want it used I want to use moments like this where Kane is dive bombing a bunch of imperial vessels and in general I just thought this fight looked good and sounded good. I got a better sense of scale. The ghost is actually bigger than the Millennium Falcon. Someone let me know. And I was like, there's no way. And then in this, I was like, oh, it's actually

fairly big. Like, obviously, it has a fighter docked on it. The falcon could not do that, right? The realization, that's a pretty capable fighter. This is not like the little transports in Star Trek. It looks like one of the Star Trek transports. But it's a powerful fighter. Yeah. I think something that, so it's interesting that you really jelled with this, Austin, because I will just say in terms of aesthetic differences, like, when Clone Wars really pulled out all the stops, I think one of the, their space battles didn't really look very much like Star Wars space battles. They looked, like, there was a sense of depth and motion and speed to those space battles that, like, Star Wars battles generally do not, but I love it because, like, it is very good,

like, military sci-fi type stuff. It has a sense of position of space being occupied. The aesthetic choice they make here is classic Star Wars film space battles which is like because everything is actually relatively like still in the frame you get a lot of like interesting looking ships and models like occupying the same space and like there's a suggestion of speed but you really get to soak in like here's what the ships are doing here's how they look here's how they move and it does like it gives it a completely different quality like the long sequence of him dive bombing on the convoy is really dramatic because like you you get to hang in that moment of, like, you don't, it's like, you don't, like, hear the scream of

the engine in a World War II movie where, like, the carrier, you know, you're diving through the flack layer. That's the shot we're getting, and we just get to stay in that for the entire shot, whereas I think in Clone Wars, he just flies through it. And it's more dynamic, and it's more, in Clone Wars, it's more dynamic. It's more kinetic. You're seeing a lot of little motions. This is, like, animated concept art, which is what a lot of Star Wars original trilogy stuff

feels like in some ways, right? And I think that you're right that, like, part of what it's what I said at the beginning of this, which is like, what appeals to me is it's a Star Wars space battle. It feels like a Star Wars space battle to me in a way that Clone Wars doesn't. And of course, Clone Wars is now what makes

a Star Wars space battle also. You know, what a Star Wars space battle is, is the stuff that's in the Star Wars continuity. Like, that's just, I'm not saying the Clone War stuff doesn't count. I'm not that type of fan, right? But this is the version of, space battles that that clicks that part of my brain and like scratches that part of my brain

and again I think a big part of it is music based and so I want to I want to take us to a different video that I've been sitting on about the music in this show that we have not yet heard this is an interview an interview with composer Evan Kleiner three two You know, arguably, the Star Wars theme may be the most recognized piece of music on the face of the earth. So being tasked with continuing that on is not for the faint of heart. It was invigorating for sure. And it continues to be, you know. Gosh, I've been doing this for 30 years and I still get really excited.

I can see Dave's having fun with the show and I'm really going to have a lot of fun with the show. show. Sorry, is he wearing part wolf? When I started scoring television and film, I started getting into some of the masters and specifically John Williams is the guy. So, just the top, please. I don't ever want to be like mini me, John Williams. I don't think there's any composer, film composer, or composer on earth who's as good as him. I'm always looking at what he does and listening to what he does and finding little tricks. But I have to put my own voice to it. Listen to the Catch Me If You Can soundtrack.

I grew up playing rock and roll and garage bands. And being a rock and roll guitar player gives me a different advantage in addition to the classical. And I think there's a way, I think I did on Clone Wars, to kind of meld those two sensibilities. Rebels is going to have a different sound. It's going to be a little closer to a new hope, I would say, than Clone Wars was.

Now, to be able to go back and start using John's themes in different ways is an exciting thing for me. I'm just starting right now on some themes, and I think we're going to kind of go back in the same way that the episode itself kind of harkens to that time and to that sense of adventure. The music's going to do that. You're going to definitely hear that,

da-da-da-da-da-da. If I were a Star Wars fan, I'd be stoked. I'd be stoked. I am a Star Wars fan and I am stoked. I always have something live on my music. I have well over 60 instruments, stringed instruments. Fun, here, this one is made out of an actual armadillo. Here's a bowed guitar.

It's called the guitar viol. And it's played kind of like a cello. I use this in Clone Wars, and I'm definitely going to use it in Rebels. It's got a really kind of a fun. You can even play it, Pizzacado. Like that, or you can bow it. Go off, Kay.

It can sound really emotional. My wife swears that I just buy them because I'm addicted, which is also true, but I do use them. So here we are working on rebels. So does any man over 40, my friend. The difference is you can play them. There's old school, there's new school, so now we have everybody playing. So now it starts to develop. And now here comes John Williams.

That's him. Ooh. He's cooking. We have a new generation of Star Wars. Let's fucking know! Kevin Kiner. He's tearing up the stool, honestly. He's killing it in there.

Incredible. So, yeah, I think the... And just wait in whatever, 25 minutes. I'm going to talk about how they tried to do this again in the next episode that doesn't work. But in this moment, I thought it was great. Because I think part of what didn't work for me in Solo and Rogue One,

and I like Rogue One way more than Solo. I like Solo, we talked about this, Like, the first half of solo is fine, but I don't think it evokes Star Wars visually the way it wants to, musically, and likewise with Rogue One. And I think, like, not having that stuff makes me wish those movies were scored, like, a step even further away, especially Rogue One. I think we learned that from Andor that, like, a different score would have transformed Rogue One into something else. So, but yeah, space battle goes off. They blow up the transport that has the giant crystal in it. And the other thing I just wanted to call out here is, Rob, do you remember what you mentioned about the Imperials in a previous episode and like what their faces looked like?

Oh, yeah, like they all look like man children, effectively, like all eerily ageless like kids. Did you notice what the, what the transport crews look like in this? No. I'm going to get a screenshot because, am I going to get a screenshot? I am going to get a screenshot. Because I think that it's like, they're making a choice here that is wild to me. Because we've never seen them do this before. Look at these faces.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They are, it's three people. It's like a commander and then two people at a console. and all of them have these imperial caps pulled over their faces in such a way that you cannot see their eyes. You can make out like the very bottom part of their hair. You know, they have this kind of close-cropped hair. You can see like the shaved down, you know, right before where sideburn would start. But no eyes, baby faces.

They look so young. They look, you know, 20, straight out of the academy. Even the commanding guy face completely. clean, super clean lines, you know, no character, flat face, stoic. But they all have the vibe of that mailman in Sound of Music after he gets notzified and is like, wait, now I can respect myself. A hundred percent. Like, they have that sort of like, that is their identity, their whole self is I sit

on the transport cruiser for the empire. You know, they look like background to animate characters in a certain way. They look like, you know, you're not drawing the character in. but there's an ace combat vibe to them it totally yeah it totally vibes that way 100% they are from the strange real for sure why is there no like ace combat style star wars game

because I don't think I don't think rogue squadron is it yeah that's a good question I don't know we should have it I like the big fight I like the big explosion the green khyber explosion they're really going all in at this point like oh yeah the death star is being made by

the Khyber crystals. They didn't get Oudapau out in a real episode, so here they are again, being like, if the Empire gets Khyber crystals, loads will think. I also love that Harry's like, you know what the Empire will do with those chiber crystals. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure you don't. Hey, uh, Hara,

Canaan, I'm, I'm fairly confident. You have real, really no clue what their big, what their big, what their big Kiber plan is. Yeah, I also dig, look, I also dig the escape from the academy. I think it's like the, the little bit of tension, does the plan go wrong? I think the character that's kind of lost here in the

middle is the soft boyfriend. Jai? Yeah. Yeah. Like, all he is there to do is kind of be like, I guess the poignancy of it is Ezra met someone at the

academy that needed protection. That actually needed someone to be big brother, to be his sort guardian. Right, we should set. And to get this mission done. The box, in the box this other kid has needed help every week or every day and uh ezra has been there to like pull him up from one box to another to be he's beating him in the race every day by just a little bit but like also looked out for him it's like if joker had actually been there for denofrio and

full metal jacket um as opposed to just sort trying to fly into the radar and letting uh let him letting go to the wolves uh-huh one of many full metal jacket references will end up making probably in this podcast not this episode but throwing rebels, I'm sure. The, right, so he's protecting him, and then he stops protecting him. And in the middle of the episode, he, in fact, screws him over so that Leonis will get the,

the, you know, whatever, rank number two so that he can also go behind the security doors and help him with the heist. And in the end, Ezra goes and confronts him in bed and, like, the first kid, Jai. Not like how you're thinking, listener if you've not seen the episode. Well, he does like,

He does, like, to wake up with, like, your hand, his hand over Jai's mouth, and it's like, you have to trust me. Like, I have, we have a thing. And he explains what he's doing and blah, blah, blah. And you're right. He doesn't really get, I mean, the sad thing that they're setting up is if he gets, the thing that the way that Ezra convinces him to, like, work with them is he says, like, look, you and me are on the list to go to the Inquisitor.

Do you know what happens when people go to the Inquisitor? You're never going to see your mom again, dude. Like, it's done. You're never going to get to go home again. And, of course, in a way, we're getting the thing that happened in that previous episode, which is like, yeah, but by fucking over the empire, you and your mom's life is done. You have to be on the run now forever. So, like, it's funny.

They keep not explaining that part of. Yeah, they're like, don't worry. We're going to get you back to your mom. And he like, no, Gai at least refers to it. He's like, yeah, great. Now we got to hide from the empire, which I do like that, hey, there's no clean winds here. There's no, there's not like the Western hero end. where it's like, all right, ma'am, happy to be of service.

It's like, we helped you, but actually we've also, yeah, and you've seen behind the curtain, unfortunately. Like, now you know too much. And so your life is also forever altered. And no, we can't take you with us. Can we talk about the moment that Zaire Leonez is art as hell inside of the walker? When, so they have this setup where it's like, they have, because they won, the two of them get access, Leonis and Jai,

to being inside of the ATDT Walker, which is like a slightly even taller ATR. Regrettably, it's the ATDP. Oh, is it? What's the DP stand? Okay. We go inside. Ezra is going to jump up and get into it and stuff.

Is it a plan like he's just gonna get in there later. But we have this moment where outside Zabber, probably Sabine, blow something up. Right, because that's what Sabine does. And the shithead kid is like, what was that? And the Leonis says, that was my signal. He just says, my signal, and then shoots it on stunbo. But he shoots him, and then he shoots the stormtrooper, and then he shoots him.

It's great. Leonis is on that Andor program. He's on that Andor program. Yes. Yes. One of the first things he says to Ezra is like, this is a great reason to get shot or whatever. When he's like trying to take the decoder out of the room when the ring cameras are on,

he's like, this is a great reason to get shot. Like, you're going to get shot. Shoot. I was just like, whoa, like this kid is real and knows what the fucking stakes are. It was neither Zeb nor Sab. who did the explosion, it was, of course, chopper. Chopper throws a little explosive disc. I had to put some, yep, apologies.

Well, also like... He steals the gun. I'm watching the scene over again. And he lifts the fucking gun off of dudes, like, belt, the guy driving the car. It's wild. Well, and he's so, he is so ready to go, Jai's like, hey, we don't need to actually start killing people yet. But Leonis is like, I'm ready to go.

I'm wrong. Jai is the one who pulls the trigger on these guys. I'm re-walking the scene. Wait a second. Wait, so what? It lifts the gun. But it's Jai who pulls the trigger. We just do these two to be like.

We love to. We got to trade Ezra out for these two. I'm sorry to Ezra. Ezra, you stay undercover here at the Imperial Academy. The other two have to come out. You know, there's so much interest in management games, and I am actually kind of, where is your rebel cell management game? Like, where is the, like, sorry, like, we got a, we need to trade Ezra to, like, to someone else's group, and we need to direct, we've got these two great prospects, and we just don't have, like, the reps for Ezra if we're going to bring these guys out.

You have to have the thing from, like, the, like, Madden franchise mode that used to exist, at least, where you could send scouts to somebody who don't get the full breakdown. You know that, like, okay, good pastor rating, but I have no idea if he's good in the pocket. I have no idea. You know when you enlisted Ezra, he had the five-turned going to become a Jedi at the end of boost. We can't trade him. That's why we should have on. Well, that is the head of our Jedi operations office speaking. You got to let him cook.

Guys can't keep trading away the fucking Jedi. cross the process he's gonna develop he's a five star just chill out come on this kid knows how to shoot that's all

like come on he don't want to shoot this is a game about shooting you have to shoot oh he's one of those system Jedi yeah he moves shit around that's not I don't

that's fine can already move shit around we need a shooter he's got great mobility though they are a basketball team though they really are a basketball team where it's like you have the person it's five of them right

or is a six chopper is six yeah but you need a six man you know you need someone come off the bench and move things around Zab is center I'm just NBA playoff mode right now so my mind is already Zab is center big he's your big man

you know he's gonna get rebounds he's gonna like force his way into the paint obviously. Canaan has to be point guard, right? Canaan is the one who's moving the ball around and making opportunities for other people. He's distributing, but he's not, he's not scoring. Yeah. I think Sabine is like your classic three and D person, like hard on defense can drop the ball in. Isn't your primary shooter necessarily. This is the thing. It's like then we have Hera who is, is our like forward, you know, like shows up, can put pressure on, can go to the basket, I guess. I don't know. Do you feel, do you feel Hara might not be your sniper?

Like, the, the issue with Hara is, like, she'll just, like, fire from, like, half court. Court without, yeah. You still have time on the clock. What are you doing? You, like, pass the ball around. Try to make an opportunity. But, like, ideally, the play isn't going well. You can just, like, pass out to Hara and, like, something will happen. And Ezra really is your, like, rookie potential superstar. We're like, we just got to wait. We just got to wait. We've got to see. Are you going to be? Are you going to be a KD or you're going to be a Ben Simmons? We're just not there yet.

We're just not there yet. We're just not there yet. We just have to see. You're welcome to anyone who heard that game pitch now. And it's like, I think I could make a game about that. Like, because basically it's that pitch plus, um, oh God, the, uh, they're lost, all of them lost. What was the character's name?

Uh, in Andor. No, the cell leader. He ends up wearing the mask. The mask. Saul Guerrera? Saw. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's the all of them lost speech from Saw, where it's like Saw laid out an entire league of rebel cells.

All of the different cells. And so like. From Solo, we know that tubes were used to be with Enfist N. They trade. And they trade people. They trade the tubes to Saw. What happened there? And I want to want to have a team photo of the wookies.

Right? We have the team photo of the wookies that we talked about. They look at the different of franos. Oh, yeah. The, there's like, I want the, I want the version, too, where it's like the characters have different ideological, like, bents. And so you have someone who's really good, but, like, working for Saw is just getting under their skin. They just want to go work for Mon Mothema. They want someone a little more lib.

And, like, they don't do good work for Saw, but they're, it's slowly building their, like, you know, antagonism meter or whatever, right? Or maybe they make some more prone to break, you know? Or just, like, basic needs. I want the thing of like, wow, we got, we got really good coffee this month. That boosted everybody's morale on board and, or, you know, in the, in the base. And that makes it easier for us to do X, Y, Z mission later. I think, like, you know, if you aren't taking care of the loyalty, you have, you do have, like, a treason possibility that could happen. They get turned.

But also, I do love the idea that, like, rebel cells could end up in a shooting war with each other. Like, if you don't hand, if these, like, organizational levels don't. work out well, they end up in a shooting war. Yeah, they get turned against each other. They naturally come into conflict with one other. Love it. Great. Look, somebody who listens to this.

The base mode is you're playing one of these things. Yeah. But there's also Luthan mode where you are trying to maneuver. Or it might turn out to be fulcrum mode as we should talk about the next episode. Yeah. Anyway, point is somebody knows, somebody listening to this, get this episode of Greg Furch. He's got it. I know he's working on a Star Wars strategy thing.

Like, you gotta, you gotta get it to him. Anyway, so yeah, we should get to the next episode here out of darkness. Again, pretty simple to lay out here. Episode opens on another cold open, another mission has gone awry, and Sabine is coming out of it wondering, why is it so often? They appear to have gotten, if not bad intel, at least somewhat compromised Intel,

from their mysterious handler who was working directly with Hera fulcrum Remember that Luton's name is Axis I couldn't like the minute I was like Folkrum From Rogue One Oh I haven't watched that

I haven't followed that part closely His name is Fulcrum Oh stop This can't be him We wouldn't it though A thousand people would have said Cass is in rebels If it was

We would know this Maybe everyone is being Super chill. Yeah. I also don't think the timeline adds up, right? Probably not. Because I think this is happening while Cass is still on pharynx. I think we're still five.

Oh. This is still five years before Yavin, which is when and or season one happens. So there has to be a different fulcrum. And isn't fulcrum just like a thing in the Star Wars universe? Isn't it a type of energy source or something? No, I think it's a, it's a similar thing to the way that that Luton is axis. It's a mechanical term. You know, the axis that something turns on the fulcrum of a, the fulcrum is the point at which a lever pivots.

The point, like if you have a lever that goes like this, this is the fulcrum. And if you have a wheel that spins, the axis is the thing on which the wheel spins. So it's a very similar term. We're reporting it to elbow today. Yes, yeah, exactly. So I was doing, people can't see this, but I was doing lots of hand motions to gesture at what a fulcrum and an axis on. But anyway, so Sabine is very curious about fulcrum, and most importantly, what irritates her is that Hera is the keeper of that relationship. Nobody else has contact with fulcrum. And again,

which is those of you get Sabine being like, listen, I did the thing where I got orders for mysterious people who told me that they knew what was right and they couldn't tell me more. I quit the Imperial Academy over it. So don't put me to do that shit again, which I think that's kind of fair. Kind of fair, but the difference is you in the Imperial fucking Academy. Like, that's the response. It's like, yeah, you went to Nazi school and shit got fucked up.

But what we're running here is a cell program where we can't, nobody can, like, there has to be cutouts in the line of communication that nobody can know too much. But the point is, Sabine's not hearing that because of those aforementioned issues. And the thing that catalyzes

her and Hera having it out, is that Chopper, Zeb, so in their escape from these tie fighters, their ship takes some battle damage, we see it's developed a fuel leak. They're in the shuttle. Chopper, Zeb, and Ezra are given the responsibility of repairing and running flight checks on the shuttle, and then they are not supervised, which seems like a huge oversight from anyone who is supposed to be the parent aboard the ghost. the rock paper scissors of them being like all right but who's going to watch Ezra and it's like well Zeb Zeb will all right but who's going to watch Zeb Chop oh chopper

Chopper will make sure Zeb doesn't do anything well who's going to make sure chopper doesn't get up oh well Ezra will make sure that chopper doesn't get up and anything this ship has too many like sketchy uncles basically because the problem is like well you can't have Zeb watch the kid you can't have chopper watch the kid

and you can't have any of them watch each other but that's exactly what happens, is their repair section devolves into the most, like, catastrophic amount of grab assery we've seen yet in this series. And they run off to, like, continue roughhousing while the diagnostic is running and beginning to flash that the fuel leak has been spotted and has not been repaired. Sabine and Hera are sent to a rendezvous with Fulcrum aboard that shuttle. while it is leaking fuel. And when they arrive at the abandoned base, why is the abandoned? We'll find out that in a second.

When they arrive at the abandoned base where they're supposed to pick up supplies from fulcrum, when it is time to leave, their ship will not start. And they need to leave because it turns out the base is haunted. The base is filled with creatures that come out when it is dark. It's very cool. Again, this is a very, the entire setting for this, is very concept art come to life.

It is a base. When you first see that base and you come in on it, it's just like, there's great drawings, great skyboxes, or matte painting backgrounds. Like, it's just a gorgeous show sometimes, which is not. I was told for so long that the show looked bad. And I get it because if you prefer the way Clone Wars looks,

especially towards the end of Clone Wars. And I'm sure season seven Clone Wars is going to look incredible. Like, I get that it does look different. But like, well, I love. the way the environment's looking to show so much. I think having seen these Filoni zones has helped a lot, though, because knowing that they're drawing from Macquarie's concepts, because, like, when we were watching this, M.K.,

was like, I don't know how I feel about Skinny Mask Vader. Right. And in isolation, I wouldn't have felt good about it either, because I'm like, why are they making these choices? But knowing that everything is actually referring back to the Star Wars that didn't get made effectively, the Macquarie concept for this stuff really does make this stuff, like saying when you see it because now all these little deviations from what became like

Star Wars standard look becomes kind of a cool like oh this is the path not taken for Star Wars but this is a cool setting it's a place with like neither day nor night like day or night is determined on whether or not the sun is blotted out by the asteroids floating around this like larger asteroid and when the sun is blotted out monsters come out and so they can't leave they're stuck together and they have to hold out until rescue can arrive and that requires Sabine and Hara kind of working out their issues but mostly showing that they can trust each other

in the clinch regardless of the way the Falcon relationship is handled. And then Ezra shows up at the end. I loved this episode. I think this is my favorite Rebels episode so far because like, because like I, okay, we know that I was waiting for a Hara episode and it's great.

Like there hasn't been a ton of Hera and Sabine in the show so to like just have them do their own mission is cool to see like the modular parts of the team moving and like we'll put two people here. It'll be fun. It'll be good. It's all good. I like that like some of the dialogue here is like some of the funniest and like most natural that we've heard so far. There's the moment when her comes back on the ship the first time and her and the Jedi guy who I want to call Keenan because that's not right. Yeah, Canaan. Canaan have like their little flirt, like, we're in a room with a bunch of people, so we have to kind of josh at each other's of making out like we'd like to. And then Harris like, hey, Zeb, you and Chopper and Ezra are going to go fix my ship. And he's like, have you met them? Which is a really good punchline.

The bit early on when he's like, I knew it would be my fault somehow. And he's like, damn, things didn't go well, huh? And she's like, yeah, because of your plan. And he's like, oh, well, you're okay, okay, you know what? They're married. It's so good. I like that it was like a Hara episode without being like a lore episode. A worse version of this show would have been like, oh, well, fulcrum is important to me.

He helped me come into the rebels. And like the fact that that relationship doesn't matter. And she's able to cut through the thing of being like, okay, we should talk about like how you're feeling about this because next week, I'm going to tell you who fulcrum, next week, there's going to be another issue because the real issues that you feel like your place in the team and the roles that we have to play with each other. And the role that I play is that sometimes I don't tell you shit. Like, that's just what it is. Also, I don't know if anybody else felt this, but there was like a fun to fake out that they were doing where you land on that base and there's like the spooky

eyes that they keep cutting to and it's like oh is fulcrum a monster but no it's just a normal monster I thought it too I thought it too. I was like no wonder he's being so tee-he-he on the phone he's like a little freak he's a freak wish are you oh falcrum please be a little freak I hope so I hope we get that um there's a fun thing too when they first land and you get the like the oozed out gasoline or like the fuel, it oozes out in a way where you're like, is it the fuel a monster? Like, obviously it isn't, right? But the way it shot is alien horror movie thing, where you're like, oh, no. And then it is an alien horror movie.

Or Ghostbusters, too. Or Ghostbusters, too. Yeah, exactly. It has that, like, it shot in a way that you think the slime is the villain, which it isn't. And, like, I knew it wouldn't be. I knew, to be clear, I knew that the slime, that the fuel slime was not going to be the villain, but it shot the way a movie about, oh, no, our fuel comes to life and then kills us would shoot that shot.

And then it did get to be a fun alien monster episode. I mean, does it turn into a wave-based shooter at the end? Literally, yes. But the stuff in the middle where they're like spooked out by these big guys, these big creatures that look like, they look like Batman. They look like Batman. Here's the thing. They look like a Batman monster.

Someone gave Batman some sort of monster gene and cloned him. Oh, like the Batman that he fights, the lab, the guy who ejected himself with the batsman, that's right. Yeah, that's right, exactly. But bigger and weirder, and they don't fly, but they were originally supposed to be bats. They're called Frynox, because my Knox already exist in Star Wars and are weird scavenger, like creatures. And so they're like, oh, they're like cousins to those. They're like bigger cousins to the, to the Minox, which that's fun. Anyway, you know why I like this episode a lot?

Space Waffles. We finally got space rockets. We get Zeb is eating waffles. He's just chilling, eating egos, listening to drums and the bass, like just vibing out. Like, he was on the ground for the last mission, so he's off this week. Like, the dynamics are here. I like this show. Me too.

It's a light show. I feel like we can be like, all right, that's the episode. We're done right this second. And it would be fine because we did, that's what the episode is.

Like they, they bond. They, you know, Sabine learns how to trust. Hera continues to hide shit from Sabine. Austin, can I have you pull up a moment here?

Can you bring up the episode in seven, at seven minutes, 59 seconds? And we watch, uh, the exchange up to when she spots the claw marks? Yes. Because I want, there's two things.

I think the conversation that was really good. I want everyone to pay attention to Harris' facial expressions during this. One, as, like, Sabine won't take no for an answer. And two, watch what happens to Harry's face when she starts talking about Canaan. Okay. Ready? Three, two, one. Go.

Look, Hara, I'm sorry for the attitude. It's just things seem to be getting more dangerous every day, and I need to know that you and Canaan can trust me. Hara feels grown here, too. We just can't tell you everything. It's for the safety of the whole crew. If captured, you can't reveal what you don't know. You think I'd talk.

I think we think the Imperials can make anyone talk. Which is the real answer here. Yes. None of us are tough enough. That's why I need to know. know exactly what you need to know and no more. I need you to trust me now. And that's supposed to make me feel better?

Hera, you know what happened when I was a cadet at the Imperial Academy on Mandelor. I trusted the Empire, followed its orders blindly. And it was a nightmare. I want to believe we're doing good, making a difference. But sometimes it seems... Sometimes it seems like the harder we fight, the harder things get out there. I feel like we can't take down the empire on our own. That's why I need to know this isn't all for nothing.

I need to know that I am not walking into another nightmare here. What you need is faith. Faith that there is a long-term plan that's bigger than you or me. Bigger than Lothal? Bigger than the entire outer rim. Have faith in that and in us. We... Canaan, he knows what he's doing.

Hera. Look. So, yeah, we have that entire exchange, and there's two things is, like, the thing that leaps out at me is, as Sabine circles back to that notion of, like, I need to know that this is what this is all for, I feel like the more we do, the worst things get. To me, it looks like Hera is increasingly getting fed up. There is an eye roll as she is walking away. Like, she is starting to overcook, because she's given the answer two or three times here.

Like, this is the real reason we're not bringing you in. And Sabine can't hear it because of her background. But, like, it is the problem of, you know, you don't understand yet that your experience is not universal, that you're drawing too much from your one experience. And she can't quite hear what people with maybe more experience or different experiences are saying. But the other thing sort of cracks me up is when she turns around, you need to have faith. You know, there's a, that there's a larger purpose, which is kind of the faith that, like, when we meet Andor in Rogue One, that faith is eroding, that he's, he's sort of, like, becoming disillusioned in that. But what's funny is, like, what is, like, what is the one of the real sources of that faith?

I don't think anybody's ever been wiped harder than Hera, she starts talking about Canaan. Canaan knows what he's doing. That's who she has faith in. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Her face completely softens. And she's like, trust that we, that Canaan knows what he's doing.

And I'm like, I don't think Canaan has that level of faith in him, but it's very sweet that you do. She sees something in Canaan that Canaan does not know that he has or sees him himself, you know? Well, and I think that there's a lot of the eye rolls and stuff and the eye movement that she has, the expression she has in the scene. It's not even dismissive. It's like, it is frustration at not being able to bring someone on board to the way that you see someone. and the way that you feel and being like, I'm at my wits end a little bit because this is, I don't have a good answer. And then deciding, you know what, I'm going to actually say why I'm not fucking scared

about anything right now. And the answer is, I have faith in us. I have faith in my due to Canaan. I've seen us do things that are bigger. And I mean, to be clear, it's clear that she does know more. She does know. She's gesturing here. There is a larger organization forming that folk,

I mean, she doesn't say the words Folkrum is uniting people to create a bigger rebel cell a rebel movement. But that is what's happening and it's what she's saying. It's like, we are not, you're right, we can't do it alone.

And we're not doing it alone. I'm not going to tell you how we're not doing it alone, but we're not. This is what, like, shows Sabine's, like, age and maturity, I think, the most so far is that, like, there's a certain point,

you get to in life where you don't want to know shit you don't need to know. You don't want to know. I mean Harrah's or Sabine? Sabine. Sabine. Whereas like Sabine... You're saying her youth. Right, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, her youth. Because I think like when you're young, you want, especially like young working with people that are older than you, that you want to impress or that have more experience in you, all you want is to be in the know and in the trusted circle to a certain extent. Like maturity is knowing

when it's actually better that you don't know something for whatever reason, whether that's like to protect like information leaks, to protect like your own peace to a certain extent. I was just on the origin story podcast a couple weeks ago. And one of the things that- Love that podcast. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you've been on there. You were on there a couple weeks before me or a month before me or something, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. They asked me like, what was something that I learned from being at Waypoint and like a lesson that I tried to bring forward as as someone who now still has reports and stuff at possibility space. And the thing that I said was like,

I think I am less transparent when things are rocky now than I was before. And I always had good reasons for like letting y'all know when, uh-oh, I'm hearing bad news from upper management advice or whatever. But where are the times that I protect your piece as a manager versus inform you because I want to make sure everyone has a, you know, a parachute ready to go. And I think that's part of the thing, right? Is that like, if you're Hera here, you don't need Sabine worrying about shit she cannot touch, right? Like, Sabine can't, you know, if they're getting whatever these supplies are from fulcrum,

Sabine does not need to know where those supplies came from. She does not need to know that information because if she knows the information, she should get captured. She doesn't know who, do you know who fulcrum is? It's not clear that Hara knows who Fulcrum is necessarily than me either, but it's clear that she trusts that they're doing the right thing, which maybe comes from Canaan. Does the Canaan meet Fulcrum and does Canaan sign off on Fulcrum? And that's enough for Hara? I don't know. And I'm sure Hara has her own breaking point here, too. I'm sure if Fulcrum was like, and that's why we need you to bomb the orphanage, Hara would be like, I'm going to need a little more. Yeah. I mean, they do specifically line out that like, Hara is the one who, like, negotiate the missions that they go on, right? Like that is her full responsibility. And I also do

like that in terms of like, because the fear with her a little bit would be like, oh, when she's the B plot or the C plot character, what she gets is to have a heart to heart. But when the camera's on her, she's going to be the cool action person and like that's what her story is going to be. So to have like this focus and have her still sort of be like the emotional core of the group and have that like further be her characterization instead of being like, oh, let's go see her do something important today, quote unquote. Like this is her doing the important thing, which is, is developing this team. Also, like, we just came off of a two and a half year or whatever long podcast about a show where no one talks about their feelings ever because that's the point of the show.

The point of Clone Wars is, hey, sit in the dramatic tension of this is what happens when you don't talk about all the shit you're boiling. It's misconnections, the show. It really is. And so there is a relief about, like, this being a show about a crew of people who care about each other and still have, you know, frustrations and then air those frustrations and figure out a way to keep working together. It's nice. It's a nice space to be in. Two other things. I think, again, the just evoculiveness of the space means you can do a lot with a little.

Effectively, this entire location is, like, it's half of a set, effectively. We're in the hangar for 30 seconds In Obi-Wan for an hour About how Obi-on felt like a stage show they sell it They sell it because the establishing shot works Because in the background of the landing pad You have the creepy abandoned base with the With the air traffic control tower and all the ruins

And so it just has this like forsaken Eerie quality to it And so you don't really care That it's two characters basically walking around Was the animation equivalent of a soundstage They go a little bit into the garage long enough to be like creeped out but like predominantly their entire holdout is going to take place on a small open like landing pad and yet it kind of works uh you know for the the big asteroid you know eclipsing the sun and making it dark just works like it's it's a simple thing but it totally worked for me but there's something that like m k pointed out which since she did i can't unsee it which which is that everything in this show

like it extends the space battles even a little bit the lack of like sense of distance in space but like she said that everyone in the show when they're running it's like old cartoons where people are running in place predominantly and every time you see like when the monsters come charging they're not fast

nothing in the show is fast there's a moment where Ezra and Zab are running through the corridors of the ghost to sort of confess that they fucked up but like it's it's just kind of odd quality of like everything in the show the distances feel a little foreshortened and characters move through spaces in a little like slightly foreshortened way. Remember they even talked about this in the opening bloaty zone for the first episodes for Spark and Resistance where they were

like we had them running around literally in circles in the same block because we didn't we couldn't do we didn't have bigger sets and longer distance sets to have them run through. I think it tends to work fine when it's like a speeder bike chase. Um, but when it's on foot. I like this episode fine. I think this episode has great art and pretty good pacing and I like this stuff with Hera and Sabine. But this whole back thing did not work for me. The whole final act of like the Rydonium canisters, wave-based gears of war shooter. It was fine. But like a big part of it, Rob, is what you're saying, which is that like the distances never felt like meaning, like it didn't feel like they were being closed in on. Or if it did, it felt like they're running over

here and then suddenly they're in your face and they didn't feel like a group of animals charging at you across a field. There's like maybe one shot towards the end that I think actually worked pretty well but the waves one through four did not work for me super well which is what they're called. Yeah she

literally says next wave incoming. Yeah literally but then they bought up their upgrades and really just laid to hurt on those monsters when they got the ghost called you knew it was going to be okay.

Ali, I'm curious, because you were really high in this episode. I'm curious, like, what did you make of the final, like, Alamo scenario that they find themselves in? It was goofy. You know, fun hijinks, fun running around. It wasn't the most exciting action this show could have. Every time you see, like, waist-high cover, I'm always like, okay, I can stop paying attention a little bit.

We're about to play the numbers. But, like, you know. Play the heads. I love there's a shot towards the end when they climb up on the phantom. Actually, it's actually the very end. It's when they're flying away and the fucking monsters are all on the ghost. And you get this one shot of them just like scrambling across the ship. That's beautiful.

I wanted that. Like, that's awesome. Do that more. But otherwise, I was like, yeah, okay. I will say it, it, I cannot believe that they paid off D-Squod by bringing us Rydonium again, which is where this explosive was a, originally from. This is the

explosive. This is the fuel that was being mill or mined on the planet like the empty planet from D-Squod whatever in a void.

Remember that? Remember Gregor, the clone? Gregor the clone who dies heroically by blowing up a bunch of explosives. And then the next episode of the D-Squod arc,

the final one is like they're going to crash a ship filled with explosives into A sunny day in the void. A sunny day in the void. And the final episode of that arc is that the separatists are going to crash a ship filled with rhidonium, this explosive, into the, like,

uh, joint chief staff meeting of, um, that is, that is this explosive. So they brought that back. That's why it blows up and it's like such a beautiful, colorful explosive, you know, blast. It's not just like a big orange blast. It has kind of that rainbow effect that it had in those Clone Wars episodes. So playing the hits. D-Squod. I wish these monsters was. I knew I knew they were important. I wish the monsters were like mean looking than cute. Yeah. They're a little too cute, I think. And that

kind of sours the like detonating IEDs in their faces like of it all. The other thing that Okay. Really. And I know I know he's a prospect. He's going to be a Jedi someday. But what did

Ezra really bring to the table here in this rescue? I'm back on you might hate the slingshot. Hey. Yeah. Yes. You know what would have gone better? A fucking gun.

A gun. Sabine has two guns. You're not old enough for that. Sabine's old enough. They get, yeah. She's got a learner's permit and like high explosives licenses. Let him rock. Let him rock with a gun.

Sabine has a lot more. I trust Sabine's trigger control a lot more. hopped out the ghost. It's like, Sabine, I got your back. All right. Here we go. And then she has to rescue his useless ass. Yeah. Yep. It means that the way. We get the full extent of Zeb's cool, like, gun staff here, where it's like, it's a rifle. Then also he can switch it into, like, electro staff mode. It's fun. You know, toys. Why do the animals love radonium so much? Why? I don't know. I don't know. Why are they, is it yummy?

They must be yummy to them, to their, to their, you know. They're really protective over it. I hope they don't need to, like, feed their babies. Like, again, this episode could just keep getting sadder, where it's like... What are they eating? If they're on this abandoned base. I thought they were trying to eat Sabine and Hera. Right, but that's what I'm saying is like, there's a lot of them.

What are they eating to have their bead this many? Are they just living on the remains of whoever used to be in that base? Probably. Are there other animals that they're eating? They probably clean it out by now. That's what I'm saying. Maybe there's some rain situation, drinking some water. I'll say this.

Like, this is across Star Wars, though. Yeah. I mean, yes. They do a really bad job of imagining any sort of biome. Like, Mandalorian, it's like, you, if you, like, so all the little Mandalrians are, like, training by a lake. The lake has, like, a megalodon scale, like, shark monster in it. the minute you see one of those

you're implying like well there's got to be food sources for that like there's got to be a range that that thing can occupy Star Wars has never troubled itself with that at all Star Wars is like we can have the biggest freakest monster you can imagine just show up completely with zero context

in a place where like there's no conceivable way a monster like that could like yeah like a tiny like it's it makes sense of scale for looking at a thing but not for that thing living there successfully yeah that's fair anyway Oh, I guess we do need to, just because I have the episode playing on in the background here, when she gets to the cockpit, she's back aboard the ghost and the little, what are they the, the trinox, what are they? Fry knocks.

Oh, well, they get fried here because she knows that the ghost can electrify its hull. Yeah. And Canaan's like, didn't know the ship can do that. And we get yet another all-time horny moment in a Star Wars cartoon as she sort of insusiently leans over him. and it says, there's a lot about my ship, you don't know. Oh, my God. And he makes a face. He's like, yeah, mm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. All right. I'm going to be learned it today. Oh, they're great. I love them so much. They're so good. Can we go to the floaty zone one more time? Absolutely.

And then we'll wrap here. This is Rebels Recon 106 inside out of darkness, starting at 46 seconds. Three, two, one, go. At the Art and Science of Lucasfilm panel, the Rebels team met with local students to tell them about the creation of the series. This week we'll show you highlights

from Killian Plunkett's talk on design. I'm bringing up some of the 2D artwork that we created really early on in the show. This is Chopper, but you've probably noticed that Chopper doesn't look quite the same because originally he had a slightly different design. We would do drawings like this to sort of explore what is attitude's going to be and what sort of character it is.

Even if we are working on a 3D project, 2D drawings still plays a major role in it because it is a really quick and economic way to explore a lot of different ways that you could do something. Canaan took a little longer to sort of pin down. We went through pretty different lux and ideas before we ended up with this. And from here, we went to a turn that sort of shows how this character looks from each different angle. In the lower right-hand corner, you'll see this maquette. This This just gives you a really nice sense of how the object is really going to appear once it's made the journey from a quick scribble on a sheet of paper to a final built acid. That's a little bit of how he develops stuff visually to the point where we can hand it over to Keith and he'll make it move and look cool.

Chopper cam. Let's go. This week we really get to know Hara and Sabine. out with their creators to gain even more insight into these amazing new characters. What would you say Hara's strengths are as a character? Hara is the true believer of the show. I think she has the absolute unquestioning faith

and the cause of what they're fighting for. Pilots have a certain swagger to them, a certain confidence. And I think it's interesting to introduce all of that to what people typically think is just a caring mother character, and that you could be all those things and still be really good at shooting down tie. There's a good. I think the idea that she's able to keep the bigger picture in mind, that she has a plan,

a master plan, and she's sort of sticking to it. And I think she's also very strategic. A lot of people assume Canaan as the one in charge and Harris supporting that. But I think you've already seen in small ways that she definitely demonstrates a certain amount of knowledge beyond him. Talking about Sabine, what would you say her major strengths are as a character? I think Sabine's really good at thinking on her feet. While other people may get caught up in a moment or what's unfolding in front of them. She's, I think, able to dive in head first and figure a way out of a situation.

The other great thing about Sabine is that, as we've learned, and as the series progresses, she's really smart. She's educated to a very high degree, and we're gonna learn more about this. She's noticing, okay, now we get this inquisitor after us, this guy calluses after us, they actually seem to care a lot more about what we're doing.

If I'm gonna go all in on this, with her, I need to know more about what's going on. What do you like most about pairing and Hara and Sabine together. I just think it's a fun episode to have and completely take all the other characters out of it. It lets us focus on them and their real concerns. Hara right now is probably keeping the larger ideals

of what it means to be a rebel alive, where Sabine is really thinking about the day-to-day of what this means in terms of her life and what she gets to do or how she gets to react to her previous experience. We don't rely too much on the force as an answer to everything, or that the Jedi are the only ones that have to have an answer

for the show's outcome and sometimes you take two characters that have nothing to do with that. And it becomes more interesting. After last week's episode, we chose one of your questions and tracked down the story group's Pablo Hidalgo to get his answers. This week we have a question from A underscore Targaryen, who asks that this is the second time we've seen the empire's chiber crystals plans foiled. We saw it once before with Annie and Obie in the Clone Wars, but what does the empire have in store for these crystals?

All right, well, so cyber crystals are what focuses the energy in a light scene. able to create a blade. So it's got this very potent ability to focus energy in a very powerful way. So I imagine if you had eight giant khyber crystals and perhaps arranged them in a ring and put them on a gigantic space station, that could probably have some very powerful effects. So it's clear that the empire is experimenting with something. And you could probably guess what that is. Awesome. Thanks, Pablo. The fight club dropping. What was the year? That was in the middle of that, you can't see, you couldn't see this because you're listening to us it it is a clip in of the death star firing

we have two frames of death star firing i'm trying to catch it why did they do that they're like oh what's what's talking about what could he be talking about that's like that's like that's like there it looks like you know why would you put something for two frames that it's a little gag it's a little like what could he be talking about he's being cold I do a subliminal messaging style. Like, I'm watching a fucking YouTube video about the evils of Coca-Cola. Like, what is happening here? Better production eight years ago says,

Love the Settled Death Star. And Star Wars says, we didn't see anything. Move along. That's really funny. Uh-huh. I'm scrolling up before we see. Somebody had fun editing this. I want to make sure we don't run into spoilers.

Yeah, very fun. I like that we get more Pablo in these. I like that we get carried back. I like that we're getting like, a broader range. I do miss the Filoni's own energy still of like felonies in a room and exhausted on the high and just like crambling.

But fucking wild shit. We'll see. About shapes and shit. I miss that energy. Anyway, good episodes, fun, light. I watched five more right now. Like that is the difficulty I think,

and we'll figure this out as we go, but like we could have done two more episodes, except I think the next two episodes, which is what we're doing next time, are going to be bigger episodes. And it's like, how do we balance all of that out? Maybe next season will end up doing more committed long run ones instead of this. But like, I don't know, the next one is called Empire Day. That sounds like it's going to be a big episode. The thumbnail has the Inquisitor on it, you know?

It's an explicit, I believe, two episode arc also. So I didn't want to like schedule us to do that. plus two other stand-alones. But I don't know, maybe we end up biting off a little bit more in season two. But I think we're going to keep to the current schedule on this one, you know? Yeah, I guess we know our internal schedule, but I've been trying to be, after being a Clone Wars episode description reader, I've been trying to not be that. And for the second episode, was anybody else also like, where's Leonis?

we're not getting part two of his story like what's happening here he's just in the muck in there and i don't get to see he's going to come back in some way like i feel like he'll i don't know i he could like build to be like a a number two to um what's his name uh callus oh he could be like calis's like protege yeah like i could see him going really far along inside and then And maybe Ezra needs to remind him, remind you of what you started with this was all for, your sister. Yeah. I think the problem is Leonis' plan seems scary bad to me. The belief I can like sell this and clean it up and remain a deep cover agent seemed like a real swing.

So like my feeling is if we see him again, it will be like I don't think we're to see him. He's still working undercover and it's like gone just fine. My suspicion is if we see him again, he pressed his luck too far. Like my vibe at the end of that is like as he has the last scene with the Inquisitor, he's already pressing his luck too far. The Inquisitor is not really buying what everyone is selling here. Yeah, we kind of moved past that. But the end of that last episode was Leonis pretending to fire at the escaping rebels in such a way

that he gets to stay in, stay undercover. and then he meets the Inquisitor. And the Inquisitor is like, I want to know everything you know about these guys. So, yeah. But at the end of this episode is just they get away and the three knuckleheads who fucked up the ship, Ezra Zeb and Chopper, are ordered to fix the damn ship for real this time. And they're like, we'll do it. Okay.

And then Sabine and Tara have one more little heart to heart where she's like, you know, I know you have questions that I can't answer yet. But I trust you. I trust you with my life and Sabina's like I know I trust you too you know we're making a difference I get it blah blah blah blah blah

so good episodes and I think so next up on the docket we have Empire Day and Gathering Forces correct Correct we have Empire Day gathering forces and then the next two episodes after that will be three episode runs the next episode after that is not a three episode

arc but we're going to do three episodes in that one and the final three episodes are connected are a big connected arc. So next up, Empire Day, Gathering Forces. Perfect. Sick. All right. And I've lost trying out what the next Q&A is going to be on Patreon.

I think Rebels. We have to do the Rebels through this stuff, right? Yeah. So Rebels, like the pilot through what you just heard. Yes. Yeah. We're going to be covering all that on the next Patreon Q&A. If you like to hear that or you just want to.

to support the show, you can do so at patreon.com slash civilized. Until next time, please rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. And remember to finish mission critical diagnostics before running off to dick around with your friends. We need. Weean, Weean. Weean. We're going to be able to be.

I don't know. I'm going to be. We're going to be.