A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 86: The Call, Homecoming, & The Honorable Ones

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

As we inch towards the end Rebels Season 2, some things are becoming clearer and clearer. First, Ezra's whole animal empathy thing is going to keep happening. Second, we're definitely going to get some 'different rebel cells have different goals' stories as the series continues. And third... they are definitely, absolutely going to try to redeem Kallus. It's a bold strategy. Let's see how it plays out. Support the show by going to Patreon.com/civilized! Show Notes Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Ricardo Contreras (@a_cado_appears) Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zakney, joined by Ali Akampura, Austin Walker, and freshly returned from Galaxy's Edge, Natalie Watson. I, um, Rising Towers. What is it? Oh, uh, no. Rising, is it like rising sun? Spire, Rising Suns. Something spire.

Something about the spire. Rising sun. Isn't the black spire outposed? Ignite the spark. Ignite the spark. I'm fresh from the land of Batu and what a beautiful journey it was. I had a great time. I went to Star Wars Night at Disneyland and I will talk to you about it soon.

on an episode in the future It sounds like something untoward happened now I will release a full statement about my evening at Galaxy's ad

What's happening? I did have I do have complaints but I do I did have a lot of fun as well so I Oh so I guess I can't pour

an entire vodka into the green milk is that I guess that's illegal at Disney World now, along with fun. As long as it's rum in the blue milk, no, it is not, because that was something I had at Disney, at Star Wars Night. So, no, but I wanted, I have, I have photos to share.

I have, I have lots to tell. But I feel like. Was it, did it kind of hit you in the heart, though, like going to Galaxy Edge, like after I'm done Halcyon? Yes. Yes. Let's not begin, let's save this for all we can have this conversation. Yeah.

Actually, okay. Oh, my God. Should people send in questions because we're doing it on a Q&A? There we go. Yeah, people should send in questions. Yes. Yes. Okay. What do you want to know?

It's my tell all. Okay. Again, it sounds like something a tour had happened. You didn't meet Anna. Well, let's just say I did meet Ann again. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Like, I did meet him.

And let's just say we met. So, hey, next Patreon Q&A. Find out what happened. Staying to Glacage at gbill.com. There it is. Our Galaxy's Edge budget, along with the rest of the show, is supported by you, our listeners, via patreon.com slash civilized. So head over there if you'd like to support the show and get access to all our Q& episodes and whatever are these stories that Natalie. is preparing for us.

So this week, Ezra's Dr. Doolittle act hits a new level as he communes with space whales to attack an oil refinery. Hera takes Canaan to meet the parent. And then we get to the thing

that kept me going all week. The Zeb and Agent Callis episode that Ali spoke into existence at the end of last week's show. They are stranded together on an ice planet. And while there may not be just one bed, as Allie theorized,

they do have to find a way to keep warm. They literally cuddle. I just want to make that clear. Yeah, thank you. That's in my, yep. In my notes. The first of this trio of episodes, the call, opens with the ghosts,

barely keeping their ship going as they search for a source of fuel to keep themselves and Phoenix Squadron in the air. They run into a pod of space whales who Ezra senses wish to lead them somewhere, but Hera hates space whales. because apparently they're like deer or moose are for drivers a deadly and persistent menace that should just be killed

they run into spaceships they have to die anyway on site for her she is like you don't get it Ezra you think that they're like majestic creatures but they killed my friends not any particular friends not named friends not specific people but just you know they're dangerous truckers she met one time yeah hey why isn't so-and-so post in a bit Space whale Space whale

Those fuckers I think you mean Also he was drunk Oh They're called Purgills Pergill Yeah I don't love

Pergill I like I like I like pergill Well do you mean The name or the creatures I'm all about the squid whale Squid whale is cool Squidway

So squid space whale is very cool Pergill Feels catty because of the per I don't know They use like pearl Than per But I don't know It's fine

They're nice Are they cool? Anyway, the whales lead them to a fuel refinery. The ghosts launch a daring commander raid on it, but it goes wrong as Ezra is thrown from a platform into a seeming abyss, but he lands on a big pergill and makes the deepest force connection he's ever made with other animal and learns what the pergill are all about. Vibes and hyperspace travel. That's right. The pergill come to the aid of the ghosts, and together they chase the rest of the crew running the refinery away. The pergill eat the overseer, and they divide the spoils.

The rebels get the processed fuel, and the pergill get to drink up that sweet, sweet, like, fuel gas that they use to power their trips through hyperspace. And the episode ends with them leaving on their voyage and Hera realizing, well, it's implied that hera realizes she had a narrow vision, a narrow vision of the natural world. What she actually says is maybe we should follow the pergill, which, like, I don't think you need to own the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. scale of the L you took over the course of this episode like it's not a good look for Hera no it's more it's like some little like christie gnome like coming off hera in this whole like rare hera L here but I can't appreciate that it makes her a more full character why would she like space rails yeah exactly yeah I I appreciate that she's like kind of an asshole in these first two episodes and like it's justified like yeah she's out there it's cold

they're low in fuel their support you know she's leading she's adjusting to leading. Yeah. Her nerves are fried. This is also the most, like, cowboy bebop situation we've seen the crew in at the start of an episode of being like, we are broke. We do not have fuel. We are cold. Canaan is sipping on something hot, and it's like the only warm thing for, I don't know, a hyper space jump away.

Like, it's fun. It's a fun starting spot. They really cut this one fine because, like, this is the first. I didn't know Star Wars ships would just stop working entirely. If you run that, like, you know, I just sort of think like, well, they got, they run like, reactors maybe, magic. I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. But here, they're like, don't run the, don't run the heater. Yeah. You don't have the heater. You can have the heater. And we need the lasers. At a certain point in the episode, the doors stop working. And they're going to shoulder the pressure doors open.

I mean, at one point they're like, it's a good thing you didn't shoot the guns before because we only had 12 blasts left apparently or whatever. Aren't you glad we didn't waste it on the pergill? Like, I guess. it's dire out here y'all can just die like there's not I don't know what your backup plan here is yeah it seems like they really

had like there it seems like they're past the point of no return like if the pergill didn't show up and well I guess they are also attacked by some awesome modified tie fighters yeah we see some some gold plated tie fighters

with like one of the hexagonal one of the like sections of the hexagonal wings cut out so it's kind of like angled forward like little like two squared off pacman wings leaning forward i think it also this to me gives like private military contractor vibes here like this is the tiefighter equivalent of the wrap around oakley's and the like tricked out like m4 rifle um in the the rebels recon this week for this episode uh gilroy henry gilroy says that the mining tie fighters is there it's the mining guild which we've heard a little bit about in star

wars on and off like empire strikes back i want to say the cloud city stuff is tied to the mining guild in some way um uh and uh gilroy says that these specific tie fighters have been modified by the mining guild um they but because they've lost part of their stabilizer what they have is a lot of extra vision they're not blocked off in that way because of they don't have the kind of front part the front triangle of the wing in their way um but it means they're like bad they're not stable they're not stable firing platforms they're not good for like turning and getting a line on someone quickly they're good at flying forward shooting and then adjusting and flying forward and shooting um which is fun it's fun to have a little extra a little extra knowledge about

about these unique tie fighters so yeah now it's also fun to see like the way in which you know, the empire intersects with this stuff, right? Because their, their mission is to go get this fuel drop off before it can be like sent to the empire, before the empire shows up to do the pickup. And I mean, I guess maybe to your point before, Rob, of like, in your mind, Star Warships never run this low on fuel. They say that just this little shipment, which is like eight tanks or something, could fuel the entire current Rebel fleet or all of Phoenix squadron basically, which is like a few big cruisers and then and then the ghost and some A-wings for a year, for a cycle. And that's like, to be clear, this is like enough propane. This was propane.

Yeah. They got enough tanks for like three summers of grilling out extensively. Right. Uh-huh. Yeah. It's not that much, but it lasts. And maybe that's why we never see Star Wars ships in this dire need. It's like maybe the hyperspace reactor is busted or it needs to charge or something. But like, you're never in. in our lights can't turn on mode because the fuel was really efficient and dense. There's probably also a bit of, I would bet you like the big imperial ships we see do run on reactors.

It's like, it's like U.S. carriers, for instance, like are all nuclear powered, but smaller ships, you can't, you know, a reactor is a big thing to put forward. So I would imagine that most everyone is dependent on fuel except like the biggest of the capital ships. Makes sense.

after they fight off these these ties using the last of the last of their energy Ezra senses that the the pergill want to show the ghost something and Harry's like I don't I don't give a shit that's actually what she says I was astonished she says fuck that I don't give a shit and I was like I can't believe they put that in rebels this is guess first F word in Star Wars yeah first fuck mentioned dumb ass whales that's what she said And Sabine points out that the heading that the Thai fighter course suggests is where the pergill are leaving them. And I do love Canaan at this point, just dragging Hara, talking about like how off, like how out of pocket she's been, basically.

Like, wow, good thing we didn't shoot those pergill. Uh-huh. Oh, they want to show us something? That's so interesting. It's really good shit. Yeah. We were again in the world of the tabletop game party where like, you know, you, you player A had bad idea and everyone shot it down and then it was proved that they were in fact wrong and now the rest of the session is them getting dragged for their bad idea that's been proven wrong. It's fun. It's good. hera then does she does explain how the pergill you know there's blood on these highways

because of the pergill just smack into the ships causing accidents and esra i think just being deeply reasonable here i don't think this is like i don't even think this is just like wow it's because that like deep jenni connection with nature he's just like why of the pergill like don't mean anything by it and they just kind of float out here and like you know get in the way or they're just animals or They're just doing the thing that they do. No one's riding with you on this one, Hara. You are alone.

You are alone on this pergol hate-hater-hater mindset. No one's with you. Sabine doesn't get open about it, but she is clearly also delighted by the pergill. Yeah. They're cool. What's to hate? They don't have the trucker perspective that Hara is. Hera has the trucker perspective.

I don't love the tentacles. I do because there's no one shot. Or one of them, like, reaches around the corner and pulls its head around, like, like, a Looney Tunes character and, like, peaks around the corner. Wait, I missed that. It's good. Wait, one of them does a little peep. Yeah, one of them does a little peek with, like, tentacle first and, like, pool, you know? Oh, my God.

I can't believe I missed that. It's really funny. It's like, I like the part where at one point, I think one, like, gently high fives Ezra as they're flying along next to each other. And then at a key moment, obviously, they feel. present him with a helmet. The helmet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, they do all sorts of shit. They're, they're, you know, they got, they got tendrils that they use his arms and stuff. They're buddies. Yeah, they are buddies. I like these more than like the loath cat, the loath cat, as a, uh, rebels original creature, Star Wars creature. You know, we talk about big Star Wars animals and stuff. And we haven't had too many of those this season. I guess we had a couple in this arc, or in this, the arc in this set of episodes, because we have those big. Ice creatures later.

Yeah, I was thinking that, like, it was interesting that we've had such fantasy-e episodes back-to-back. Yeah. Like, the last one was the Zeb episode, Zep episode of traveling to the strange. Traveling to a strange land. Remember when Zepisodes were the thing? Like, your favorite show would be on hiatus through the summer. But then it's like, hey, don't worry, we've got Zepisodes. And you just like, and we didn't know who Zeb was.

So we were just like, yeah, we just turned this on. And it's like, what's this? that guy doing in Battlestar Galactica? I would love the world where there's one like royalty-free character that everybody agrees we're cool with using and he could just show up. We all like him. You know what I mean?

Like what if the Philly Fanatic? Like what if the Phillies came out was like, you could do whatever you want on the Philly Fanatic. I know that's dangerous, but you could do whatever and he could just start showing up in anything. You know what I mean? I love this. Your little sitcom needs a shot in the arm.

Boom, Philly Fanatic. Ding Dong, who's there. Yeah, and it's a Philly Fanatic, who's a big green creature for people who haven't seen them, you know. But a creature of indistinct, like, what is, couldn't say. I don't know. Sometimes he could be the Philly Fanatic in the sense that that's the guy, that's the Philly fanatic, the mascot for the Phillies. So if you're doing a TV show that takes place on Earth, if you're doing like three body problem or whatever and like, oh, we need to have, our scientists are upset about something. And then like, the Philly fanatic shows up and cheers them up.

Like, oh, the Philly. Yeah, okay, cool. but also he could just be that character design and you could drop him into like the next like he could be a lawyer he could be a lawyer but he's just there as the lawyer he could be like in the next rings of power lord of the rings thing is like some sort of you know some sort of creature tulkinesque creature that we just so weird that they're like oh it's oh let's say it's that's that's that's philly that's phil yeah yeah exactly 100 yes yeah I love this yeah it doesn't have to be him it could be somebody else it could be like one of the one of the one of the one of the parents from Bluey. I don't know. I'm just tossing ideas out there. It should be like an original guy though, right? Maybe, but it's hard to everybody to agree on an original guy.

Yeah. I guess we could make the guy and say, you go have fun with him. Launch the guy in like 10 things at once. That's right. And then have it keep recurring. I have it keep recurring. Yeah. If only we had this influence in the world.

If you're out there and you are, if you and 10 of your show running buddies are listening, I want to put a, uh, Our original character. We'll figure out. We'll make a guy. Monkey paw curls. All right. I can't wait to watch season two of Andor.

Finally, gang. We made it. Bum, bum, bum, bum. Shuttle door comes down. Oh, no. The Philly Fanatic is wearing a white Grand Admiral's outfit. Darth Fanatic, yeah. Anyway.

Darth Illy. Darth Illy. Darth Illy, yeah, there it is. There it is. Anyway, in the same way that I clearly don't care about paying attention to what's going on in any given episode, neither does

Ezra, because they're telling him a plan and he is not fucking listening. They are telling him, we are going to go do some shit from Halo 3, and he's like, the whales are talking to me. I don't think I was listening either. Why do they do that? I was listening either.

That, like, air jump? Why do they do that? So they can't, they can't land the ship safely because they have big cannons. They can't maneuver, too. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah, because the whales, I don't know fuel. Oh, because they have no fuel, right?

That's what it is. Yeah. But there is atmosphere on this asteroid because it's a gaseous asteroid. It has some sort of breathing. It has enough oxygen mixed in with the weird fuel mist, I guess. So they can just, like, jump out the ship and do a combination of choppers, you know, little rocket boost and the force they can safely land, even though they've fallen, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of feet. They're doing some Mission Impossible type shit is what they're doing. It's like, it's wild that they just like skydive and then just Mary Poppins onto the floor.

That is what they do. Do you think we'll live to see Tom Cruise have a light safe? Oh, my God. I hope so. No. You don't think he'll ever show out. He costs too much. He would cost too much. He could be the guy. He would cost too much. He would cost too much.

All Star Wars casting decisions of late have been dictated by like Star Wars is bigger than the star. I mean, it's always kind of been the thing, sort of. They put Harrison Ford in as a hedge. Yeah. No, I guess he was still young. He's still, no, that's pre-Indy. That's pre-Indy. That's the thing.

He was still in his, I'm a carpenter. his buddies with George Lucas. Yeah, dude. I think he'd been in a few other smaller things. He'd been in like, I think he was in the conversation by that or something. You know what I mean? Obviously American graffiti.

Right, exactly. The prequels isn't this, because you have Ian McGregor. You have McGregor is an indie star at that point because he's done train spotting, but he's not like, he's not a big Hollywood star at that. And Liam Neeson was the same category

as Al Guinness in a lot of ways. A little bigger maybe, but still like the, here's some gravitas brought to you by you know, an actor from the aisles. And Natalie Portman was like an up-and-coming young actress but wasn't like super, you know. Yeah. So, yeah.

And then new trilogy. Oscar Isaac is probably the most of the three leads, Oscar Isaac is the one who had maybe made the most inroads. I think it still raises his profile so much during that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Anyway.

That's a good point. Yeah. Well, I have a counter. Yeah. Laura Dern in Rogue One. This is true. Wait. She wasn't in Rogue One.

She was in... I mean, in... Last Jedi. Yeah. Yes, Last Jedi. Yeah. And by then, Carrie Fisher and Harrison, in the new trilogy... Yeah, but they're already in it.

They're already in it. Yes, but you're right. Laura Dern is a big pool. For Sickos. Yeah. I mean, yeah. If you're, if you've got the brain. So the point is there's this entire plan that they spend this time laying out.

And there's like the whale. That's right. But the whole plan was they were going to land. They were going to blow up the gas to create a distraction. And then Harrow was going to put the ship down under the cover of all this chaos. The, you know, the half destroyed refinery. Yeah, I guess to be clear. And they just take what they needed.

The refinery is built into a big, a giant asteroid that has a pit filled with this green gas. The green gas pit is not the gas that they need. The fuel that they need has been refined already and is in little barrels. So they want the little barrels, and they're going to blow up the big pool of green gas as a distraction. And Ezra is like, don't do that. That's where the whales are. Well, and as they dive down toward the planet, the whales are like, hey, cool, we'll come with you. And they join the flying formation with the ghosts.

and one of them sort of smiles at Ezra and Ezra Ezra has so many like bong rip connection with animals moments in this It's happening like every every two minutes He makes eye contact with one of these things And I'm just like

They should have let him say bro for this episode Just this one Those are his bros Those are his bros And so like when the gang lands On the platform We see the whales continue to to dive into the gas.

And then they, you know, engage the, the, like, rent-a-cops that are defending this refinery. And Ezra is supposed to get on this heavy cannon that they took to, like, cover the rest of the gang. But he continues to commune. And he sees the whales emerge from the gas. But they were whale-colored before. They were gray and all this. And they emerge. And they're, like, bright, iridescent with, like, fun patterns and markings.

And he's like, whoa, I get it now. That's right. And their eyes are glowing. Yeah. He's having a full Danny DeVito in Always Sunny type, like, journey here where it's just like things are, like he's having epiphany after epiphany. And everyone else is getting shot at, you know? Yeah, everyone is under fire. Can you show up?

Like, um, and the answer is not right away because he gets blind. blasted into the pit of gas, lands on a big whale, his breathing mask falls off, he's suffocating. But you know the whale king got his back. Especially when they make that eye contact. That's right. That's wild, because he sees their eyes do the hyperspace jump, like effect, but in their eyes. Or he's just off that gas, you know? Yeah, he's off the gas, I think.

Also, like, how do we feel about this voice performance where he's like, I just want to help you? Allie, is this the Ezra hater coming out? Is this the... I'm hating a little bit. He suffocated. He says, I understand. I want to help you. Oh.

I actually think it would be so good for Ezra if he became a stoner. I think it would make him instantly way cooler is if he was just like stoner, like spiritual jock. You know what I mean? Like tent top, beaded necklace, ripped. Flip-flops. Flip-flops. And then like, do you want to hit? You know, like, I think.

that is the Ezra we need and maybe we'll get there. He just wants to vibe and chill and and be like and be peace. He doesn't want to be shooting giant cannon. He wants to be talking to whale and this brand of force connection like if this is his

force superpower like let me tell you like this is not this is not like Anakin Skywalker like you know wipe out an entire star base that's right like you this is not this is not a force power for go getters I'm fine with that I have two things to say here one is maybe we found out why he doesn't ever show up in the original trilogy maybe he just fucks off and goes hangs out with the whales with the space whales and he's like yeah sorry about your whole empire thing oh man entire briefing my mom and being like you have to go to endor to support the strike team you're you're my ace in the

hall he meets the iwarks gone yeah that's it we're out is out I'm just hanging with the Ewox now. Yeah. No, Hey, what drugs do you guys have? They told him to go visit Yoda

and he was like Yoda's bad vibes. I'm over that shit. I'm over that. I'm sorry. But if, okay, but if he's a creature

enjoyer, he would like Yoda in that stage of his life, wouldn't he? No, because Yoda's still a god. Hotbox,

the dark side gave, he did. Unwelcome is young Bridger. I think he'd like Daggaba more than Yoda. Yeah. I think he'd be like,

Yoda. You don't need this. No, it would be too scary. Maybe. Because, like, you know, like, it would be like, yeah, when you, it's like, you start getting paranoid and shit. And then, and then you see fucking Yoda. First, you go to Dagaba.

That little frog's dead. It's like daytime. You're like, oh, okay. Like, it's not too bad. Like, I'm going to, like, I'm going to, like, I'm going to, like, you know, have a little sash, whatever. Starts getting dark. Okay.

It's hitting a little wrong. Yeah, it's hitting wrong. You get a little. Where's my X-wing? Yeah. My ship sank. What are my chopper's not here? What am I going to do?

And then Yoda shows up. I'm out. I'm out. I quit. Yeah. And remember, he's already heard Yo's voice because it's Star Wars. Oh, no. And yeah, that's going to trip him out even more.

He's going to be like, I know you. I know you. But I don't know you. You were the ghost. I heard your voice. Second thing. He's got to go. Rob, you said that it.

If this is his superpower, then it's not that. It's like, you know, he's chill compared to Anakin whose superpower was killing children. There is a quote in the, again, the Rebel Recon for this, where Dave explains that he thinks of the animal empathy that that Ezra has as a gift. He says it, he thinks that Ezra is aware of it and that it's his gift, but we haven't overplayed it. We don't want to get into this area where it's a superpower. I've never been into that aspect of it for. Star Wars. And that makes me think Dave doesn't like it when a Jedi has like their thing.

Like a special ability. Which is weird. Like Quinlan's like smell power. Now wait a second. What makes you, why did you remember it that way? Tell me more about what you believe Quinlan's power was. Wasn't it that he would like? Oh my God.

Wait, I just remember what his power was. Tell me more. What did he smell? Because he's a tracker. right he can track stuff yeah so don't me an example of how when he smelled a thing what type of stuff is he smelling it's like the

pie lines he can see you can it's like when there's a pot like when a cartoon hobo smells a pie cooling out of windowsill yeah he he like that's how it kind of works

it's like he can smell people's uh like force presence it's not right He could touch a thing and remember. He could see the memories of where it had been and what it had been. It had been. Right, right, right, right, right. Not smell-related.

Not smell-power. No, no. For those curious who want to see, by the way, the wrap-around peek-a-boo move by the space squid whales, it is at 19, like 24 in this episode. I had it running to see where I could find it. Oh, cute. It's very funny. It's very good.

But yeah, so yeah, maybe we'll see Jedi without that sort of individual power, those sorts of like, that was such a big EU thing. Allie, what were you going to say? Yeah, I feel like I agree with Dave. Yeah? Like, because it doesn't feel like Quinlan Voss's power is for specific. Like, something like that feels like almost like a Star Wars, like, racial thing where like the Miraluka

whatever are like blind and can connect to that force and that way like the the like you know different sense experiences feels like it should be like an alien thing and not like oh I'm a Jedi and the force shows in like this specific way for me

and he is a special non-human near human thing but I don't know yeah okay it is a small number of the species including boss possessed the gifts of psychometry the ability to read

memories of inanimate objects through touch so that is an alien thing okay so there yeah okay I still think it's a superpower

but yeah I don't like this is one of those things where like Philoni being like no I don't think it's like a special force superpower

dude the entire episode is like him making instant powerful connections with animals and this is not the first time we've seen it he just is anticipating

people being like So wait, is he like Aquaman, but for space animals and things that he's like getting defensive about it, I think. Sorry, Dave. But Canaan can't send, Canaan couldn't even hear them. Like we, we skipped, I think we skipped over the, like the, in the very beginning as they're sort of approaching the area where the refinery is supposed to be. Ezra starts hearing this like this whaling like the whale sounds and nobody else can hear it and Harris says at one point like there's nothing to hear and Ezra's like, do y'all hear that? Like do you hear that? So that is particular like that is a particular

you can call it a gift. Yeah. Particular power-ish type thing. I think that the thing really is like. like, the thing that makes it not like superpowers is that if I have to try to defend Dave a little bit, it's like a Jedi does the same basic set of, you know, if a Jedi does a hundred things, then like 90 of them are like the shared Jedi playbook. And then like there's variation inside of there, right? Like Anakin and Obi-Wan do have, Obi-Wan also had that kind of animal affinity thing

going on lesser than, than Ezra does. But like, and Anakin was a good pilot. And I think Maybe that internally they just think of those things as being character traits, not Jedi powers. That it's not like, it's not that that Anakin has Jedi pilot seven. It's that Anakin is a good pilot and has always been a good pilot. But it gets blurry because it's just like, when you're into the force, like, where's the line draw, you know? Well, then we also, like, Canaan starts out this journey by, like, teaching Ezra to talk to the animals in the hangar. I know. I know.

And then by this point, Ezra can, like, basically communicate. unit like can basically mind meld with these creatures so it's it's a forest power day anyway well maybe even maybe if ezra had the the force stripped away from him he could still be like a horse whisper you know yeah yeah he's just also an animal that tech or something yeah yeah yeah marine biologist maybe absolutely you know that's fun anyway they do it so i also just want to say Ezra needs to like just work the goddamn gun rather than worrying about getting hit because the thing is he's in that moment

the reason he gets knocked off the platform is he bales out of his firing position as the other gunner tracks in on him and like we've all been there in shooters sometimes there's moments where like you're gonna have to clutch this out my friend you're not gonna you cannot run out of this fight you gotta lock in you're gonna have to put

rounds on target and just take this guy out that's right and Ezra runs. Yeah. Okay, but imagine just to the side of you, there's like a quick time event happening that you're trying to, you know, engage with. And it's really cool and it's capturing your attention, you know.

So who could say that you've suddenly disengaged? Who could blame you? He's playing Fortnite and like the rest of his crew is like dancing and playing music just to the left while he's in like a sniper duel. And I just, you got to finish this, you got to finish the sniper duel before you hop in there and start doing the, the remix, you know?

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, anyway, so whether we like how he says it or not, he tells the, tells King Pergel, I understand, I want to help you. King Pergel used the tentacle to give him his helmet back. And meanwhile, back on the surface, the ghost basically lose their fight. The tie.

get airborne, they're pinned down in their corner, they're starting to surrender. And then Ezra gets on the radio and it's like, me and the pergill are here, something. And the pergill come boiling out of their gas cloud. One of them just like destroys a tie fighter, just again, like moosing straight into it. And yeah, you like it when it's when it's on your side now, don't you, Hara? Yeah. Yeah. Although actually that does kind of led some credence to maybe they do this shit on purpose.

But maybe Fuck it I would do it too If I was a space whale Get out of here These are my space lanes Yeah Yeah

I don't begrudge the orca The occasional kills the get I'd say This is Like you know In general Things are going against Our beautiful marine neighbors

So if they get You know The odd number on the board Yeah It'd be like that It'd be like that Yeah I feel like they could have just finished it up,

but they let, they let Ezra do a little alley-up thing here where like King Pergill lets Ezra like ride on his back. Well, he takes shot. He gets hit four times by tie fighter blasts. While Ezra fails to deflect them, doesn't even try to set up for this like,

I'm gonna cut the tie fighter in half. And we've already seen like a baby Pergill just like bumped it with his nose, just shattered one of these things. Like this is King Pergill like just one. Wanting this kid to come out of us with confidence, it's like T-ball. I would say it's definitely like T-ball or like a summer basketball camp. Another uncle.

It's another uncle. Wow, he's collecting uncles. This is his little quail uncle. Yeah. How many uncles do you think he'll have by the end of this show? Oh, wow. Okay, well, five seasons. Or seven seasons, right?

Five. Five. We're almost done, rebels. We are? I mean, we are. We are, we are. How many second season of four? No, but the last season's a little short, you know?

Okay. We're not almost done, but we're approaching the halfway point. Okay, so season one, he gets one uncle. Season two, no, he's got two. Number one, he's got- Canaan. I think Canaan's on an uncle. Canaan's not his uncle. This is dad, okay, but Zeb.

Zeb and Chopper. That's two. Zepp and Chop. And then, uh, Vazago. Chopper's an uncle. Chopper. Do you don't remember Chopper throwing the milk bottles at? him while you're supposed to be learning

that's uncle behavior I'm saying Vizago's an uncle Vizago's an uncle or like a super baby yeah chopper's a super baby to me Chopper is at the least older cousin who like you know what I mean Chopper's super baby to Hara which we'll get to in the next episode

Toes my to me like a man like I'm not going to love any of these analogies that we're going to get to in a second there right right do you think the sentence doesn't mean anything I'm saying out loud

we're gonna move on I think Stewie got mad when boss baby came out yes I'm sure yeah I'm sure that he was like this is a terrible representation

of me yeah so that's so yeah Vizago okay so two is season one two and season one I think it's three

yeah three uh hondo is another uncle yeah yeah that was season two right yeah and then so that's four and then this fucking king wales five i think at least four more uncles yeah i'm saying he's

charting two uncles a season he's charting two uncles a season that's wild now it's dangerous to project off this stuff because obviously your first acquisitions are easiest the rate of uncle acquisition is almost certainly bound to decline especially as his star wars his his His character arc is going to be him coming into his own, which by definition means probably fewer uncles. Good point. Can we guess at other uncles? Well, there's going to be... We meet someone that doesn't become an uncle.

We meet an older, older male figure in the next few episodes that I would say failed the uncle check. Oh, sure. Yeah, not uncle. But I do think if we get the eventual rebel base, we're going to get, you know, or just jump shoot uncle. Oh, we forgot, Rex. Oh, Rex is... Oh, my God. And honestly, honestly...

My man has so many uncles. Honestly, the other two were uncles, too. I know, but they're not around. You're right. Yeah, yeah. Uncle's don't need to be around to be uncles. No, I know. I know, but I'm talking...

Yeah, I know. He's got eight. But if they never come back up, I really want to know how many are going to be around him in the season or in the series finale. How many uncles can he count on, you know? Like, avatars behind him? Right, exactly, yeah, like, when you see the row of them behind him.

The row of him. Yeah, Goku doing the spirit bomb. He's like, uncles, give me your power. Lend me your strength. A beer bottle comes cartwheeling into the frame. Send me your butt ice. Folding chairs to start assembling around him. Exactly.

Uncalls, we're going to play spades. Come through. It's still Goku. That's why I'm doing Goku voice. Yeah, yeah. I do think actually in this third episode, I do think someone might have the potential to become an uncle one day. I went and I reviewed their meeting in the first episode.

We'll talk about it. I'm so glad you found the time to do that because I wanted to do it and I didn't find the time too. So we'll talk about that. And if we're counting and if we're counting, pergill uncle that's nine uncles right now this kid already has nine uncles

oh and and and the um the uh uh clancy brown character i was debating oh that's definitely an uncle he's not there yet but he's gonna become an uncle he's got a friend of parents

friend of parents yeah tell you know what you know what well we gotta give it we just gotta get it's a friend of parents that we did a mission together and what was that mission pulling boots off the car. Yeah.

That's Uncle Material. The only thing that they didn't do together was have Clancy Brown go buy him beers.

He'll do it later. So 10 uncles. 10 uncles. Like Palpatine needed to be sounded in the red alert.

Like the ISB should have been like I need everyone off access. There is a rebel cell of uncles growing at like a cataclysmic

rate. Yeah. This many uncles could This is I beat the set For my plans Rule of 2 versus Infinite Uncle's

Are you kidding Every time? They always win I've seen the simulation Anyway They win They win We need to launch a sports

League We must stop the uncles Oh He Pampettine makes it legal to do sports betting and takes at least four uncles off the board immediately.

He puts it in the apps. It's done. Yep. Yep. He adds one. It's the prison from Andor but OTV is spray painted over the top.

That's right. It's just like they're delivering themselves right there. 100%. 100%. Anyway. They got the fuel. They did Pergill devour

the overseer and then they fly off and the pergill go in hyperspace and pair is like That's new That's new That's where hyperspace comes from That is what again In the Rebels Recon they kind of gesture at

They say this is like Dave and Pobbler Are like this is deep lore This is the first time we've seen That potentially this is where People first witnessed hyperspace travel And started to study it And like realize that was a thing you could do So

Oh like the way when people saw birds They've had to fly Just like that Yeah Just start flapping Just do it like them That's what we said Where are those birds going?

Yeah, could we go there? Is that not? It was a little more complicated. And we didn't... But you can't say that's not where the inspiration was from. Yeah, sure. You didn't get them anywhere close to actually fly. I'm just saying.

But plane looked like bird. Yeah. They tried a lot of things that looked like bird before they got to plane because they didn't understand lift. Yeah. And plane don't flap. You know? No.

Until the mighty ornithopter. Oh, sure. But step one is view bird. The step one is view bird. Yeah, sure. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Sure. Baby flying. All right. Well, and in comparison to the functional familial pod of Pergill that we've seen, we're going to be dealing with a different sort of family here in our next episode, Homecoming, which finally gets into the Sindula part of Harris Sindula. Yes. This is the last name that I've been saying.

we've been like overhearing on and off for a year or whatever. Yeah, yeah. But we couldn't do anything with that. Like we've heard, but we had nothing to, we couldn't say anything beyond, oh, they mentioned, you know, Sundula, okay, cool. But what is that? This is now. Oh, we met Cham before.

Yeah, of course. But like, so beyond, yes, I remember Cham Zindula. Okay. But beyond being able to say like, oh, we know a guy. name jam then you know there's not much else to say but so and also like this is this is going to get into what does it mean that uh harrison duel is out here flying missions for the rebellion rather than you know hanging back on on rilof so after a supply raid suffers some needless casualties because phoenix squadron has to basically do anything on these missions they have to carry out

these delicate little docking operations while under fire from the imperials and they realized they need a carrier for easier and faster ship recovery and combat. And it just so happens that one is part of the imperial occupation on Rilof. And hey, there's already a resistance army operating there. There's just one catch. It's led by Champsendula, our old friend, longtime Twilock insurgent leader, and Harry's estranged father. Hera and her father reluctantly agreed to work together to seize the carrier, but he betrays

her and the ghost mid-mission to pursue his preferred plan destroying the carrier for the symbolism of the act and how that could galvanize resistance on Ryloth. In no time the two rebel forces are shooting it out aboard the carrier

before Hara persuades her father, well actually first her father's commandos but then him to back her play and the United Rebel and Twilight Resistance Force works together to salvage the operation. I love the setup for this. By the way,

the setup is basically we do not have the right stuff for the kind of combat operations we're doing here. We see an A-wing loses its hyperdrive. It needs to get into one of those delicate little docking locks

on the side of the Curlian Transport, the Crayling Corvette. And it's a sitting duck while it does that. And so the pilot just dies trying to dock because Thai fighters just like hit her like a clay pigeon. Actually worse than that

because she's like clay pigeon's flying. She ain't. Yeah, she's done. And I want to say this was Catherine Tabor, who was Padme, our Padme voice actor, is in the episode twice, actually, once as this A-wing pilot, Phoenix 2, who gets got. And then a second time as one of Champs and Dula's commandos, Numa. Is it where you're going to say French Hera? Well, no, not as French Hara. We'll get the French Hera.

But Numa, Champs and Dula's, like, number two or whatever. on one of his two commandos, who is also not a new character, who is also a returning character. Where do we know Numa from, folks? From one of the Ryloth, that's from the, from Wax and Boyle. Uh-huh. It's the little girl. She's the little girl that waxer and Boyle protected. She grows up to be a commando for the free Rylop.

No way. Uh-huh. That's her. I'll post a picture. Yeah. Uh-huh. Little green. twilight girl oh my god

this show looks so rough so long I forgot that kid looks fucked up this looks like the fucking baby from Twilight oh no but yeah that's that's her over on the right here

that's Numa oh her little hands and Catherine Tabor played her as little girl also but then picks her up here as as cool you know Ryloth or Twilick command You know, she's out there getting it done.

She's fucking out there. She's getting it done. And you can't really see it in this image, but she is, I believe, from, I have to double check the, yeah, on her. Oh, here it is. Here's the image. Quote, on Numa's upper left arm, the word Boyle is written in Orabesh as well as a particular crest in reference to one of the clone troopers that rescued her in Star Wars, the Clone Wars. She also has a faded Tuka illustration on her tunic.

She is still rocking the waxer and boil, like, armor plating. Wow. She's like you, Allie. She's like a waxer and boil stand for real. She knows why she's in it. Apparently. This clone saved me. Apparently.

Oh, you can hear it. This is the image. This image really shows that you can really see that it's like, that's just clone armor she's wearing. Yeah. That's fun. Oh, that's terrific. Yeah. Yeah.

Also, did she mod it up to make those of the braintails? I think so. I think so. It's pretty good. Nice. Anyway. Anyway. I also like just a quick thing. I always dig it when a show calls this out. The real problem is not the ships they're losing due to bad recovery. It is the air crews. As Herr points out, losing pilots is worse than losing the ship. Which, you know, I always, I'd like a show that takes into account that, like, producing people who do a high-skill job is hard. Like, getting someone who can, like, do this. Not easy.

actually harder than getting an A-wing, even if you're the rebellion. And not having a place to repair it is a big deal. You know, as always, the big season two arc has been, we need to find a base. We need to find a base. Where do we put our ships down to repair them? Which leads them to this idea of like, well, maybe there's a way to get a place to repair them that isn't a base, but it's sort of a mobile command center, a mobile carrier, where we can at least do our repairs.

You know, because if that A-Wing could have just flown into a carrier at the end, instead of doing this delicate docking thing, it probably would have survived and the pilot would have survived. It's like a garage versus parallel parking, right? Like if A-Wing could have just like pulled into a garage, cool, that pilot lives. Instead, she was like trying to parallel park on a major side street in a city, right? Where it's just like just died trying to like ease that bumper in there, like the fourth or fifth, like, you know, spin of the wheel. Yeah. So Herra knows what this means. She says she'll, she'll handle it. Canaan is like, you're actually going to call him. And indeed, she calls Champson Dula. And the vibes are not good. He seems like he's got a little smirk as they, as they get off the, as they get off the call. Like, he's kind of been waiting for her to come as a supplicant back to, back to Ryloth. it's ordinary that they like reveal him as if he's important to the viewer which I only raise because it's interesting to like the shot is her calling him up and then she's blocking the hollow feed and then the camera kind of like rotates just a little bit to the right to reveal that he's standing there and there he is that's Champson Dula maybe you remember him from Clone Wars the Ryloth arc and the fact that they're making a show that's for that viewer is really interesting right because two seasons in to this show

Disney didn't make all those original Clone Wars shows, right? Presumably they're in heavy rotation or heavy syndication at this point. But it's a real, I think it's a really confident maneuver to be like, there are going to be people watching this who care about this guy who was in three episodes of our previous show, most of which didn't even air on this channel. Most of it aired on Cartoon Network. And the confidence of doing that is different than the confidence of like, here's Leah. Like, yeah, everybody knows Leah, you know?

But to be like, ooh, people are going to be. hype to see cham is it means that you believe something about the work that you're doing you know yeah it's interesting we get another prime canaan moment here oh my god i know it's so funny can you explain it he's nervous he asks ezra how does he look and ezra just doesn't understand why this is important at all which ezra do not understand i guess do you not understand why anyway he doesn't He doesn't. Does he not, does he still not think Karen Canaan are like basically, does he not get that, like, they're basically married? I don't know.

There's a, in The Rebels Recome for this episode, Freddie Prince Jr. is in it. And Andy asks him, why is Canaan so nervous? Is it because, is it because, like, he's a Clone War general? Is it because he, and he respects Clone Wars generals a lot? And Freddie's like, well, it's partly that. And it's partly that, you know, he obviously has feelings for Hera and wants to impress her dad. But mostly it's, it's that jam new Mace Window. And Mace Windu was Depa's master, which is Canaan's master.

And so there's like, that's really, like, no, it isn't. Look at this. It's just about the hair. It's just his father-in-law. He doesn't want to impress his girlfriend's dad. When he introduces the rest of the ghost, he confidently, introduces them swapping their names.

Yes. It's so funny. This is Ezra slapping Sabine on the cauldron. Sabine, thumb, Zab, and Zab gesturing at Ezra. It's so funny. Sabine is like, wow, I studied your

campaigns in the academy. And here we get when we met Cham like he is a brave resistance leader, but he's all about, he's all about the fight. Like he's completely locked in on like fighting the free Rilof. The minute she's like, holy shit, you're Champ Sandula. I studied you in the, in the academy. He's like, yes, well, they've, they've been studying me

for years. Cham is fully in legend in his own time mode. Yeah. And enjoying it. Yeah. He's, he, you know, he's a character where like, we didn't have the hair perspective on him. we would all be all on board with him and me i mean we were last time too where it's like this is the dude who's doing the fight and can anticipate the republic is going to end up occupying his planet and that's exactly what happens and here he is you know uh you know in it in that way but also willing to kind of be gassed up and be like yeah i'll talk my shit a little bit you're here at the hammer ryloth because that was me me and mace wind do but it was also me You know, they didn't want a song about it.

Did, so when they, when they have the meeting about what the plan is with this ship. Yeah. And they have the disagreement because, like, basically both of them have half the information they need, half the resources they need to, to take this ship. Yeah. And Chams argument, so hair is there to hijack it. Cham is like, my people need to see it fall from the skies in flames as a symbol of our strength. And right away, it doesn't feel like it's about the people of Ryloth. Like, this moment feels like it's about me.

Yeah, I think this is a, based on the way the rest of the episode goes and the way that they frame the rest of the conflicts in the episode and the way that where Cham eventually wraps back around, I think this was a stumble in writing more than, because I also read it this way. He's like, we want to blow this thing up and make it a big symbol. And it's really easy to read that and to start reading him. as like, this is our egotistical revolutionary who doesn't care about the

revolution. He only cares about himself. He's trying to like, he wants to be the revolution. And that's not where the story ends up going. He's really committed to Ryloth genuinely and believes that committing to broader collaboration is a waste of fucking time because look where

it got us last time, just a different army occupying our planet. And, you know, in the end, he's going to get brought around on that and he's going to believe in Hera and he's going to say he's proud of her and all that shit. That's where the story has to go in a way, for him at least. It doesn't have to go there, but that's where they're going to take it for him and for the Twilick and stuff. But I think this was a sort of misstep because it really suggests the sort

of, I think partly because the show genuinely believes that blowing up a big carrier like this would send a big message because a different ship gets blown up in the atmosphere at the end. And it does send a big message. And it does lead people to to do the thing he wanted it to do. Yeah. But in this moment, I'm with you that it felt like Cham was going to end up being the kind of egotistical, you know, a tyrant and waiting character. And that was not, I was like, oh, please don't, please don't fumble this.

Well, I think, but I will say, like, I think the two things live side by side. Like, I think he has become a vain, somewhat egotistical leader. We're going to get to more of that. But I also think what's missing here is we didn't understand. There's a point later where he's like, you don't understand. how things, how bad things are on Ryloth, which I think is the key part. Like, the symbolism sounds empty unless you, like, realized that in some, some places, like, you need the symbolism. Right. Like, that there was a greater good isn't actually going to convince people that resistance

is anything but futile. Like, you do need to see. Early on, all we get is him being, like, this monstrosity is rain destruction and death across Ryloth or across the citizens of Ryloth. And, like, that's not material. Like, it's, it, it, is. It's, I believe you, but we don't, we're not, it's not convincing that, okay, so we shouldn't steal it and use it against the empire? Why not? Like, that doesn't, the idea that it's so rotten that we can't touch it in that way is not convincingly made, I think, to the audience. I hear that. I feel like my initial impression was kind of this, it felt more like short-sightedness in, like,

And, yeah, I feel like if it had been better contextualized to Ryloth, what's going on Ryloth right now and what the sort of current status is of the resistance movement in Rilov, Ryloth, that would have made more sense because it's not really clear at the beginning that Ryloth is still actively fighting back against the Imperials. because they kind of talk about like winning their freedom and then only to then be occupied for the Republic to turn into the empire and then to have to fight them. But it's not, yeah, it's not very well grounded. But I do feel like through the course of the episode, it does become more clear that Cham is just so invested in his people

that he's, it's more so like he's not willing to expend resources outside of, I mean, it, it reminds me of the, the, uh, was it the Saw Guerrera episode from Clone Wars in which they were like not willing to expend. That's from Andor. It's a saw scene from Andor, right? Or from Rogue One, like that Saul's whole thing has been like, yeah, hey, fuck this broader conflict. I have to take care of mine. Exactly. Y'all don't have it like that. Like, you're not going to win this thing.

Maybe I can win my part of it. Or working with you is going to corrupt us in some way. Very similar walks. I'm very curious if we'll ever get a cham-saw connection. I'd love to see them talk to each other. I'm so curious what that conversation would look like. What obscure radical beef they'll end up having with each other. You'd think that they would get along, but actually.

Actually, they both, they're both too big for each other. You know, this town only has one, has, only has room for one radical fire brand. I think, too, just like, again, the Clone Wars version of this is at least a two-parter. Again, probably three. We would see what the resistance on Rilov looks like a bit more. I also think, I don't think, I don't think, Chamm thinks that, like, the enemy, the, the weapons of the enemy, like, are too foul to be used. We need to destroy this thing.

Like, for me, the, the feeling I have about this is there's only, like, I suspect the thing that Cham is up against is there's only being subject to so much indiscriminate, like, imperial violence that people can take before, like, what is the point of continuing to resist? Right, right. If we have no means of resistance, if we cannot, if we cannot advance. our ends at all. And so having this thing that's been sending, as we learn, regularly scheduled like terror bombings around the planet, have this thing like destroyed. That could be the thing

the champ needs to keep, you know, armies supplied, the people in the field, whatever. Because it could be the things are starting to teeter that like on Ryloth, there is this, you know, honestly, yeah, we'll be working for the empire, but at least we won't be bombed. Right. You can work backwards from the fact that seeing the other cruiser blow up causes uprisings, you can work backwards from that and say, okay, that means that there were people who had the capacity to do uprisings and fight back, but we're unwilling to do that because their morale was too low or they didn't believe that it was possible or whatever, right? And if we trust at the end of the episode where they say the uprisals that are happening in this kind of upswell is the end that

they've been fairly successful enough for us to put this heroic music behind it, then we can trust that that means that, like, that was not, Cham's read on that at least was right, that a symbol could cause us to at least stay in this fight on Ryloth. But he does not give a fuck about the wider scope. They're doing something here, too, now that I think about it, introducing this Imperial Carrier, which is this cool, like, big flat, like wing design. But we did not see Star Destroyers very often.

often in the show. And it's funny, if we think about like the original trilogy, like, yeah, one, you're just kind of a little more limited array of ships there because they haven't built out this whole array of fictional ships in universe. But everything we see is basically like Vader's flagship and like the grand fleet of the empire, right? This is where all their best stuff is located. But I do like this notion of, man, there's a lot of parts of this empire that are on a shoestring, right? Like, this is more than the like Twylex can deal with. but it's one cruiser and eight bombers. Yeah.

Like providing air support for this entire war effort. Just like that blockade was three cruisers. There's a lot of the empire. This goes to the like a lot of like why they need the Tarkin doctrine. Why they need like something like Death Star is boy, already before the rebellions even really at full tilt, they're struggling to be in the places where they need to be. They're stretched.

They're stretched thin. And, I mean, they're succeeding at it. But, you know, if instead of sending this kind of heist plan into action, they had decided to bring the entire fleet to bear over Rilov, they would probably win that initial encounter. Now, the empire would then bring in other people, and they'd resupply it, and they'd end up keeping it under. And obviously, Riloft is occupied, so there's stuff down on the ground on top. top of everything else. But in terms of just like one cruiser and one bombing carrier or bomber carrier versus even just the small allotment of stuff that we know the rebels have, it would be costly. But they would probably win that initial skirmish, right? Which is not the way you think

about most of the original trilogy like space encounters. It's not equal in that way. really until like the revenge of the Revenge of the Sith Jesus, the Return of the Skywalker Oh my God, return of the Jedi Oh, oh no. Tired. A man needs sleep. My man, yeah, your man needs sleep.

Return of the Jedi stuff, which of course, they also thought the Death Star was not active at that point. But yeah, yeah, it's an interesting picture of an empire stretched thin. I do like Harris shuts chams down with like, If you could have done this, you would have. Yeah. And he gives way.

And so Heron, Ezra, this is the thing, like, again, Ezra not quite getting it. Yeah. To Ezra, family, like, family is good. Family is nourishing. All he wants back is family. He is baffled. Like, he has no frame of reference for. Did you all catch?

He's freaked out by the fact that Heron or dad appear to hate each other. Did you catch the little beat, the little Imperial March beat in this conversation? No. I'm going to, I'm going to screen share. this one, I'll count us in. Three, two, one, go. Hey, what's going on between you and your father? Well, he haven't spoken in years.

He was a hero in the Clone War, fought with a Jedi to free Rylath from the droid army. But after the war, the Republic became the empire and refused to leave, so he started fighting them. Once my mother was killed in the resistance, Ryloth's freedom became the most important thing to him. More important than family? It's almost time. Here.

We should head out soon. Well, there's nothing more important to me. Actually, that's the emperor's theme. That's the emperor's theme. There's nothing more important than family. Why evil? Oh, no. Darth Dom.

Oh, excuse me. Oh. What? Like from Fast and the Furious. There's nothing more. important than family. Yeah, which I think is fascinating. Actually, I want to finish the scene

because this is the other half of this, which is worth. That just shows up, it drops out, and then we get the rest of this. Is that the old Astromack you found during the clon war? His name is Chopper. If you gave me half the attention, you gave this second-rate junk pile.

We'd have liberated Ryloth by now. Sham Al. Huge Al. This is what's wrong. with you, child. You hold on to the wrong things, devote your time and effort to lost causes. Not a waste. I am not wasting my life. I help people. I lead ships into battle. I am part of something bigger. The rebellion. I thought you knew better than to put your faith in outsiders. You forget what happened when we trusted the republic. This is different. The rebels

are fighting to free everyone. Ma'am. Let her coat I don't care about everyone. I care only about Rylowth. So I've noticed. And we're back. And we're back.

And we're back. So yeah, two things there. Go ahead. Yeah. No, please. You're going to hit one of the two for sure. It's just, it's just, it like

why this is in kroyab it's very funny I get it I get what they're trying to say is like she's you know being with her dad again like bring is and emotional

and like sure sure it's just like it's just like she she doesn't have an accent ever it's not even like we don't see her with Twylex ever That's true. It's true. It's true. You know, and I think partly, part of the thing here is we've made the decision for that Twylics speak French or they speak English with a French accent. If they spoke Rhodian or spoke huddies or something and she'd slipped into that, this would hit maybe a little harder. But instead, also it's not like she switched into a different dialect. They just speak English with a French accent. There's not different idioms or, you know,

you know what I mean like I think that's what I'm missing is like something more like cultural than and than an accent I think the other thing is cham the the decision that actor makes with chams accent is that this is a guy who has very faint traces of an accent that's the thing in in his English and so it's just like yes he is a less emotional character is well, the scene. He's, like, the mask isn't breaking here. But just in general, the impression we get of, like, how do, like, how do Twylex speak a second language, which is the same language, just in a different accent? I think the CHAM thing, it doesn't raise any hackles, because it sounds like somebody who's like, basically I've coached the, like, I've coached the

accent out of myself. We know for a fact she has completely done that. And then it switches into Jeanine Grafalo playing in Ratatou Right Uh huh Yeah

It's It's a little much But I do love The Emperor's theme hitting When When a champ comes in

Slash when Ezra is like Family is the most important thing to me There's nothing I wonder if that's like That's going to be Ezra's like

Darkside It's going to be something about family Like Now I'm less convinced that his parents are dead. Like there's one last card to play against him, which is that they aren't dead.

Right. But if he doesn't do something, like that there will be in jeopardy or they can be tort, like something. But like I think there's a button. We now know there's a button on him that can be pushed. Yeah.

Yeah. But it could also be the classic thing of like you're my family and now if you put under threat, I'm willing to do anything to keep you safe. Right. Right. That's the iniquet thing.

That is the inin thing. That's the dumb thing too. Like, like, well, this is, or more he made his family and now he's Ezra does not have friends yeah he's family

and uncles and many uncles if you hurt even one of my 13 uncles if one beer in that 30 pack in that cube has sprung a leak

you're dead it's also probably it's also probably pointing towards chams like reversal right but true yeah yeah but true i mean but it's it's interesting because the use of this theme specifically denote or connotates for me dark side of the force stuff right um not just i'm going to do something that you're not expecting right that is like not what you

counteractive to your goals, I guess. So it's kind of, it's a little strange because when I heard that music, I was like, oh shit, like, has Chan been corrupted somehow? Like, is he, you know, is somehow like the dark side, you know, penetrated Ryloth in some way? Maybe there's like another, you know,

political leader who has like dark side inclinations. But it was kind of strange. to you, if it was specific towards his sort of betrayal later, I think it makes more sense as being actually for Ezra and like what what he will go too far to protect perhaps, but we will see. I'm really curious to see where we go with him. And I mean, you know, yeah, like the, I think it's also meant to raise your brow and be like, ooh, is, is Cham trustworthy? And then, like, Cham shows up and says, fuck this droid you all love, right? So, like, they're definitely pouring it on to be like, how bad is it, right?

Yeah. And part of me really does wonder if there is another version of this script where he goes all the way bad, you know? And Hera has to break it off with him and, like, ejector, you know, ejection pot him back down to Ryloth and steal the thing out from under his nose because they can't work. it out or because he betrays her directly, you know, or tries to shoot at her. You know what I mean? Is there some bigger, and then instead they went this direction and, and, you know, what we're all about to talk about. I also, like, the bit where we learn now that Chopper is her childhood droid. Yeah. Also recasts all the times that someone's about to go on a dangerous mission. She's like, take, take Chopper, which now we're, we're Astromack stands here. So, like, of course,

you take the best character in the party. Like, take the, take the, all, take the, take the, Swiss Army knife of a character. But every time she does that, that is like if she can't protect her family, she sends her dog, right? She sends her best and oldest

friend to look after them. So you're saying he's Lassie? He's a dog. He's on an uncle. I'm saying he's a dog. No, but he's to hera. And also look, he would

Dogs can outrank babies in family hierarchies. That's right. A dog can be an uncle. Like, who's the one with the big barrel, like the dogs that are like rescue dogs in the snow? St. Bernard's. Oh, St. Bernard's? Yeah, St. Bernard's. They have Uncle energy.

They got Uncle energy. A dog can be an uncle. R2D2 is not a dog. Right. And Chopper is like an R2D2, too. So, you know, they're both the same type of guy. they're guys they got that dog in them

but it's that man baby thing because a dog is like a person and a baby right this is but hera helped create this person who's been with her her whole life when I get it yeah yeah I get it's really sweet that like

you know that the chopper is there to take care of all the ghosts Tara's baby is Ezra's uncle that's just normal yeah yeah it's normal for that Okay. Okay. But like R2D2 isn't as silly. Like R2D2 are more vulnerable to what? You just said R2 isn't as silly? As a silly. No, I agree with this. No, I disagree. Oh my God. R2 is so silly. Art2 is more baby. He's not doing pranks. R2 is literally doing pranks. R2D2 is literally doing pranks. Oh, well, hang on. He's just pranking the enemy. But he's constantly doing little pranks.

Remember when he had the Home Alone episode in that, in that, uh, like, broken things like pouring salt in Ezra's coffee or whatever, like Chopper would do. I think if R2D2 and Chopper got together, there would be hijinks abound. Think about every time R2D2 laughs. He's a little guy. He's a little funny prankster. But he's also, but he's also, he's also kind of a baby. like I get droids he gets scared and he's comforting from from Luke yeah of course uncles get scared sometimes

R2D2 I don't think R2D2 as an uncle is the thing I think R2D2 is like you know it's a brother to Luke you know yeah or like baby bro baby brother this is why chopper's a dog to me that's why he's not an uncle but chopper chopper doesn't go moor help me chopper is not a baby Chopper is never but but yeah Yeah, that's a good point. Chopper drinks 40s, like, Chomper does not have baby energy.

But I think, but I do think, but I do think to Hara, there is dog and guardian type. Like, that's the... In front of Hara, probably, he's like, pooh, pooh. Chopper's only with Hara, only when no one else is around. Right, because it's like, it's like Hara is his big sister. Yes. And so he gets to be a little bit like baby brother. to Hara, but for everybody else, he's uncle.

To everybody else, he's, I am no fucking baby, I am man. Like, I am a fucking man. That is chopper. Yes, he's baby, he's baby, he's sibling, he's sibling energy. He is not sibling energy. Okay. I don't, I don't see it. So, uh, I don't have siblings.

So I have uncles, right? Okay, sure. And so, to me, I can tell you which uncles chop. That's my uncle, Chris. That's Chris to me. But Chopper is like shitty older brother who pushes you into the pool. That's my uncle Chris.

Yeah, he is someone's older brother. He just described the most uncle shit I've ever heard. Okay, sure. And I think the demarcation is that most adults will be like, you can't just brandly shove people into the pool. But a true uncle will be like, hell yeah, I can't. Hell yeah, I can.

How's he supposed to learn to swim? Push. We have different uncle situations. We come from different cultures. Also, like, it's clear, Cham is, yeah, the relationship sucks, right? Like, he frames it as if you gave me

half the attention you gave this junk pile. You hang on to the, you hold on to the wrong things. The conflation of, of her duty as a Twilight Patriot and her duty as a daughter and his inability to understand that the two things are separate

that the one doesn't nourish the other is like, it's briefly sketched out but very well executed here. The lapse in word choice, the way he is trying to connect with her and fucks it up is... Well, add on to that,

the death of the mother, who Herod describes as dying in the resistance, right, as dying as part of the resistance before she leaves. And it's like there's all sorts of like toxic familial relationship stuff going on there. Well, and her implication is he, you know, we only saw him at the height of that war. But like the implication is it wasn't that way as a family until the mom dies.

And then he's like, I'm all in and fighting the empire. And, you know, you can imagine there where it's like, what do I know about connecting to a kid? When I've got all this anger and all these skills at my disposal, I'm going to go lead the rebel army and the kid thing will work itself out and it didn't. Yeah. I do think that this is part of the reason why, like, the word that I go back to the most when I think of Rebels writing is efficient. Yes.

Like, because especially with the conversation we were having before about like, you know, what's his true intention, you know, was that a good? characterization in the beginning, but that they're, like, able to land the, like, change, the, like, vulnerability that he gets in the scene that, like, really opens his character up is, like, y'all did it. You didn't need three episodes for it. You did it. Yeah.

That's true. Yeah. And, like, the other thing is it's just, it's just, um, uh, reigned in enough where his, his final delivery on his final line before he leaves her is, I don't care about everyone. I only care about Ryloth. And we know he has also sublimated, I only care about your dead mom, into Ryloth. But he doesn't say that. He doesn't say, I only care about your mom. Oh, I mean Ryloth. And a worst show would 100% have done that, would have made that textual instead of letting us see earlier when she talked about that. And then have him explicitly not bring it up really at all in their part of the conversation.

Even though it hangs over that, and even though he has substituted grief for, for revolutionary fervor, right? Or the other way around, substitute revolutionary fervor in for grief for his mother, his mother, her mother. Oh, geez. The family tree's getting complicated. Who's an uncle? So, yeah. This is who I was saying would not make the uncle cut. Yeah, of course.

No, of course. Cham does not uncle I mean we'll see if he comes back I don't know if he comes back or not But if he comes back and he's still If him and Rex can start swapping stories together He could work his way back into uncle Yeah

But Azro I don't think I don't know I don't know that Ezra's all the happening Yeah I think you're right Well especially because the way Azra leaves that scene There's a doesn't even look at Cham there's a fuck this guy Type energy I do like by the way

Like, because this is a better animated show as well, I do love like her body language and the way she's like anxiously tapping the, the wrench on her knee as she tries to unpack all this for, for Ezra. It's just really, it's just really well done. The, the sense of like anxiety and pain around this that we get just through that, that little gesture that he picks up on. now the next thing we see is them preparing for their attack on the carrier and they're they're all packed in aboard this strangely roomy Thai bomber the Thai fighters Thai bombers they're all just as big as they need to be in in rebels but Cham is Canaan's like sucking up to Cham and asking about war stories and talking about you know, he heard about the,

the adventures that they had on Rylow with, him and Mace Windu had together on Rylav. And Cham says, ah, yes, and begins to lapse into this heroic story of how he and Mace Windu stormed the separatist base and crossed an energy bridge together and turned into the song, The Hammer of Rilov.

That is not how I remember this scene. And I am just curious Like I want to check the game tape You want to see the game tape here Okay we can pull that up We have we have the link Someone It's kind of a long scene

But it's out here Mason would do recaptures Riloff 4K HDR I don't know why people do this I don't know why people do this It wasn't made like this I'm dropping it back down to To

1080P That's what it should be Yeah as it should be That's what it should be And we should just talk over This as we watch I'm jumping about a minute into this. Rob, you already skimmed this, I believe, right?

Actually, I haven't. What's the setup? The setup is they're trying to get into the main city, and they're like, I'm scrolling through this a little bit here. There's a big, like a light bridge. Yeah, the actually starts for about one minute. Because the thing I deleted, they're sneaking in aboard like a hijacked separatist armored vehicle.

Yes. Right. And they got to get across this energy bridge. to get into this base because otherwise there's this chasm. Right. All right. Three, two, one.

It gets one minute in. Three, two, one, go. Door of the tank opens. Oh, I miss battle droids. In the next episode, I swore you were going to get some battle droids and we didn't. I'm so sad. I see Mace and two clone troopers.

Yeah, yeah. I see Mace and two clone troopers, and he's doing that shit. And he's... All right, the droids are trying to knock out the force. This is the part I remember. Yeah, he saves the clone troopers with the force. He flings.

Is that Waxon, Boyle? I don't think so. It might be. It might be. And then we get the audio dropout, Mace doing wild shit, doing gymnastics on the, like, Stap Fighters. Oh, that's right. He jumps aboard the scooter. Yeah.

And forces one of the droids to pilot the scooter back across the chasm. Yeah. He lands. Uh-huh. He rescues the clone troopers. You've still not seen Champsendula. Champsendula is not here yet. No.

Get that bridge back up There's Cham There's Cham There's Cham There's Cham's running in On a bunch of creatures Because remember the creatures He's about

70 yards from the bridge Yeah The bridge isn't up yet This guy can do shit No because you need Mace To walk down the bridge With his force powers Like Cham isn't flying

Through the air by the way And then everybody else Comes in and backs him up Mace can't do this on his own Back up yet to be pictured They're coming They're coming The clone troopers have gotten up to the

Bridge Control room And he needed that And here comes the bridge They turn the bridge back And there's Cham first Cham's out front Cham's going

You know Champ could be in the back General Sun The bridge had to come up And they're fighting these guys Okay well Mace is fighting these guys Mace just destroyed all the

He's going to shut the door on the tank He killed him tonight Now there's a bunch of Twylax waving at the other. Here they go. See? Yeah. You take these droids. I'll go fine, watch him.

See, you take these droids. And then he took those droids. I see two. I see two there. And took two shots. He just did a tail whiff. I don't know if that was him. It's a two-phase plan.

See, yeah, he's, these dudes are eaten droids and shit. Damn, that, that's, ah, the commander droids is a Oh, the commander droids are so sick. God damn, these guys rolled. These guys rolled so good. Oh, my God, they're so scary. Oh, yes.

And the tactical droids? It was so, a droid that could get its hate on was so scary. Yeah. This, by the way, is why I'm glad we saved the season seven of Clone Wars. We get to go back. One more time. Yeah, techno union guy.

And remember the tactical droid was like, fuck the techno union guy. We're leaving him behind the Amir? Yes. Alright, I think that that's what we gotta watch. The technical droid is like, we don't need that steampunk sack of shit. Yeah. Oh, wait, you know, there's this last little bit at the end here where I guess they like, they go, they get the techno union guy.

Then what happens? Cham, does Cham say something here at the end? Cham shows up. Cham shows up. It's 437 in this video. What are your terms for surrender? They're unconditional. Agree.

Oh, no. I thank you, Mr. Jedi. Today, all of Rilov thanks you. You've earned your freedom, General. All of you. Also, they should call you the hammer of Ryloth. We did this together. We crossed that bridge together.

And by together, I mean, about five minutes apart. You know what? You know what? Sometimes he needed those guys. He needed, he got, he got grouped with the like level 20 and he's like level he's got like a bunch

of level five guys and the level 20 guy is just going to do a little bit of carry and they're going to get so much XVine for 56 uh-huh this is how it goes you can't look at a two phase plan

and be like oh cham was it involved with the second phase is bullshit I can if the second phase this is like the group project Where it's like, and hey, you, um, could you go to like staples and pick out like a really nice binder for us to put the presentation in? That's really important. You know?

I think it's more than that. He has to open, he has to open the bridge. Uh-huh. So they can cross the bridge. You can't be like, oh, they didn't open the bridge. Right. They could have fucked up and not crossed the bridge. Yeah, that was the whole plan.

That's not on sham. Yeah. I just don't think Chan just eat out on the story. Yes, he does. Here's the other thing. Cham, the only reason they got to the bridge is because of Champ. They needed Champ to get to the bridge. The Jedi couldn't have done that without all the backup that Champ's crew, you know what I mean?

If the Jedi could have saved Ryloth, they would have saved Ryloth. They needed the on the ground here. They wouldn't know. They needed to even push them to do it to begin with. I'm just saying they wouldn't have been like, we're busy. You guys could handle that. You're 100% right. You're 100% right.

So yeah, maybe like it's the thing, you know, sometimes you get to the finals and you have the final's MVP is not the person who is the workhorse all the way through the season, you know, or the Super Bowl MVP wasn't the workhorse. The workhorse still got you there, you know? They still get the ring. They're still part of the season. They get the ring, but they don't talk about like. But you might even retire their jersey because they contributed so much.

much all season even if they weren't the superstar in the finals depends on how many jerseys have already been retired for that team holds your franchise you know rilof has not had a win rylop did not have wins they did not have him is ring cham is ring of honor at best he ain't hall of fame it's i think he's hall of fame i guess we'll see if he doesn't what your standards are for hall of fame we don't know the star was hall of fame is here's the thing if he ends up winning ryloth twice, that's Hall of Fame. We'll see how Ryloth does. Now his daughter does it for him.

But she left. She isn't even here anymore. And then came back with the rebellion and a bunch of, like, I know, I think. We'll see. We'll see. That's on the end of this episode was not, and then the rebels showed up and helped uprisings all across the planet. People of Ryloth did it, you know?

I'm just saying, it became a song, The Hammer of Rylon. But it was about both of them. It wasn't just him. It's not like it was like just about Cham. I would be with you. If it was like, Champsendula is the hammer of Ryloth, but the song is about the entire,

that entire conflict. Also, where's Mace these days? Yeah, where is Mace? Not getting those glory. Yeah. You know. Someone's got to be the subject of the song. Uh-huh.

You know? That song is useless if it's about just Mace. It's true. Mace ain't much of a simple these days. No. Anyway, so Canaan is completely smitten. He's like, I could listen, General, I could listen to you tell stories all day. In Cham, but again, Cham is in, like, Viper mode.

This is not him, it turns out. This is him, like, and I could tell these stories all day. This is very Honda, what he's doing. And really, like, the smile don't reach his eyes, Canaan, look closer. Look closer. Paris trying to tell you, you don't know my dad. Yeah. And they sure don't because they staged a little crash landing aboard the,

aboard the carrier. And everyone is knocked around because there's only one or two seats that people strap into. Everyone else just gets tossed around, as do all the explosives. The Twilight Commandos brought with them. Contrary to the plan, Sabine spots it, and the Twilightx stun everybody. Yeah, that was pretty rude. You know, they're committed to the vision. Use these guys for their ride, you know?

It's not even their ride. What is it that they give them? Is it just the A-wings, like, make it look good? Yeah. Yeah. And that's enough. And they set off to go set the bombs and go knock out the hyperdrive and, and leave these folks to, I mean, I don't think they're going to let them die because otherwise they would

have just shot them. But I don't know how the plan was to get them off the ship. I don't know how they're going to off the ship either. I don't know. That's the, it's the, the alarming part of this is like, it sure seems like plan A was, and my daughter and all her friends are just going to have to die on this. But I don't know how they're getting off the ship. Escape pods? Maybe escape pods. Maybe escape pods. Maybe they go down with the ship. I don't know. It's not clear. I think Cham viewed himself as too important to let himself do that. Like, he didn't need to become part of it. Maybe they just come back and take the bomber out but the bomber doesn't have hyperdrive

doesn't it? Bomber doesn't need to fly it just needs to land. Just needs to land. Just need to land. Maybe that there are still fighters aboard the ship. I think the escape pod's probably it. Yeah. But that's still leaving a lot of chance to make your way. Fight your way back to the ship. Get to the hangar. I don't think he's killed his daughter. I don't think he's there. I just don't know what the plan was to get her out. I mean they just left. He handcuffed her to the

fucking. That's why I think it's come back to the bomber. I hope so. yeah I think if the plan was leave them for dead we have different confrontations throughout the end of this that's true and why would you why would you stun them in the first place

you would just yeah that's true that's true and in the end like they didn't kill Chopper they left Chopper to untie everybody so maybe the plan was they will escape but surely they can't stop us oh contraire Hera

Furious She's like We're gonna go deal with this Sabine and Zab Gonna deal with the Twilac Commandos Mm-hmm Ezrin Canaan gonna do some cool

Jedi maneuvers Real cool Jedi maneuvers Yeah You want to tell people about like A great Jedi stunt we get here Yeah there's like a long hallway With slowly closing doors that are closing Almost like a diamond pattern inward

Right? So it's getting smaller and smaller. And we get a little like Jedi force push leapfrog where Canaan charges up and shoot and like tosses Ezra forward really quick to like the midpoint. And then Ezra deals with one of the stormtroopers and then force slingshots. Canaan passed him the rest of the way to the final like gate, which has closed. But then Canaan can cut a perfect circle because he was trained in the academy. He knows how to be a Jedi. Cuts the circle. goes in, takes out the stormtrooper, and then lets the rest of the crew through. It's fun. It's a really dynamic and, like, a very physical feeling, Jedi stunt. It's great. Doing good stuff.

We love to see a good circle cut and then use the... Such a good circle cut. Yeah. And then we get Sabine and Zeb using a little mouse droid as, like, an EMP bomb, which is fun. See, Sabine wiring together an IED on the fly. It's a little bit more like the energy we need from Sabine on the world. yes but by the way yet again here we are killer hera episode next episode great zeb

episode i don't love the episode but zeb is great in it sabine yeah it's unbelievable it makes no sick because like especially because we have this like fine ezra episode right like where it's just like ezra sort of gets to be the story he at least gets to be the vehicle for the situation in the last episode you're talking in the whales right in the whale episode yeah that's an azar episode yeah like so why doesn't sabine get this and like why do we get all of this information about about her but like for sabine it's like he he he in you know a decade from now the middle the moon is going to drop and we're going to reveal our plan like just like fucking tell me yeah i'm with you um but yeah yeah bridge confrontation

Hara, the champ, have it out. And he listens to reason eventually, right? After his guys desert him. That's the, well, she gives the big speech. She gives the big speech. And then his guy, before he can figure out what he wants to do, the rest of his crew is like, yeah, we're out. Yeah. We're signing on with the rebels.

We like Harris plan. And then he's like, okay, we'll see. And then they work together to defend the ship because they evacuated it. by doing a very goofy mind control bit, which is very funny as we're trying to like sound like an imperial officer. But it's a cool sequence that I'm working together to shoot down like multiple waves of imperial attacks.

This is the sequence though. Sorry, before we get to that bit, the actual argument is the bit where he does the thing that you talked about before, which is like, you have not been here, you have not seen what they've done to our world, that they plunder our wealth, they put our people into slavery.

And when he says that, her face changes. And that's the moment. And she's like, I have to actually like, okay, I do have to convince you to come on board my plan by the argument she makes. Yeah. Go ahead. What are you going to say? Well, just that this will have more of an impact by like being able to take the carrier for like, if you free one, you can free everyone. It's not just like it doesn't have to be.

If you focus on Ryloth, or rather, if you join the rebellion, Ryloth will be free through this like concerted, you know, group effort. The point she makes is in the Clone Wars, you knew you couldn't, you couldn't liberate one village. Liberating one village wouldn't let you liberate the planet. You have to liberate the whole planet. You have to liberate the whole galaxy. You can't just focus in on your little corner. otherwise it won't succeed, right? Her initial point is like,

the empire is just going to send more people here. You know, we're going to blow this thing up. They're just going to send more here. What we need to do is stop them everywhere. Otherwise, Ryloth will never be free, basically. Which does win over his people. And, you know, he softens. We get some good visual, you know, storytelling here.

Everyone listens to Hara, give a big speech, which is fun because she is in a position of authority inside of the rebellion. And part of that authority is give a big speech sometimes, you know, big convincing liberator speech. And that's also presumably what Cham did forever, right? So fun to see her as like the echo of the ongoing Twillic, like, revolutionary, you know, spirit and the has a very direct lineage to what we, the rare places we saw that stuff in Clone Wars. It's fun. Rob, what is your beef with the action sequence that follows?

It's good. Like them shooting down the waves of imperial attackers. That's great. Them doing point defense, like shooting down the missiles coming in. Cool. Cool. Great. Love it.

And then the ship gets like the last explosions. Yeah. Knock the ship out of orbit begins to crash. It knocks out its stabilizer is what we are told. And then Herra grabs the oak. Yeah. And starts hauling back on it. Oh, she just can't, she can't pull the ship out of its dive.

And then her dad reaches and helps her pull the ship and together their strength cranks back on the flight yoke and hauls the ship out of its dive. What are they pulling on? It's a yoke. Yeah. Why do people think in movies about like the planes going down? Why do people think it's hard to pull back on the stick?

I don't know. I don't know that it isn't. Someone should tell me. Is there a time in, is there a time in, is there time in aircraft where it was harder to pull up on the yoke? Yes, because there was no because you had cables connecting to the elevator

effectively, right? But there's no way a spaceship is going to have, again, the whole reason it would be hard is because you had a big cable connected to the big one. I think that's the thing that got hit. They said the stabilizer got hit. I think it's the power steering.

Power steering's out, bud. We got to pull back on this thing and use our strength. I'll pull up that whole spaceship. Damn, Rob. Pull up on that space. But there's nothing you're pulling up on. It's sending commands to parts of the ship.

There's no, there's no big. There's no straight. In other words, in other words, when you pull back on the throttle or on the controls on this ship, what it's doing is sending a computerized signal to use thrusters in different systems, in positions, right? It's not, it's not changing the flaps mechanically through wires that are connected to hooks that are connected to the flaps of an airplane that would cause it to rise or dive because of its position with incoming airflow or whatever. I barely understand how planes work. So I'm

going to get some of this stuff wrong, obviously. I think it's different in Star Wars. In fact, in fact, in fact, one of the questions that Pablo got, I think, for this Rebels recon, someone was like, someone was like, it was the previous one. It was like, so if there's, since they saw a black hole in the episode where they go to Zeb's people's like the Lassan homeworld or the Slant Homeworld are they all going to suffer the effects of like time dilation

basically that like when you get closer to a black hole in reality or any time is relative in reality and that means that like time is moving differently in different places and if you were for instance near a black hole you would be experiencing and living through time at a different rate. This is what like interstellar is kind of about, right? Like, this is a common

thing in hard science fiction, the idea that like time moves differently around different gravitational points and different types of, different parts of the galaxy. And especially if you're talking about like hyperspace traveler or faster than light travel, something is happening with time there, right? And Pablo was like, oh, no, we don't. don't, it's Star Wars. That's not, we don't have relativity. We have simultaneously where if it's Tuesday at 2 p.m. on Tatooine, it's that same, that same time is happening on Corrassette. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We just don't, we just don't care. You know, we have funer out here. Imagine if Star Wars had fucking time zones. It would ruin everything. It would be impossible. I imagine it has like. Because he's talked, Pobble's also talked about there being like a Corrassant time that everyone knows, can look at a clock and say, oh, it's noon at central corassant. It's dot beat.

It's like, yeah, it's like the swatch beats exactly, internet time. People don't know about internet time. Then y'all got to, y'all got to get on internet time. Swatch, internet swatch time. It's still up, I believe. In an effort to create a universal clock around the world back in like 2000. thousand they invented they changed the world uh they changed the time to being about beats every one minute and 26 seconds 26.4 seconds was one beat so every day had a thousand beats uh this was of course

used in fantasy star online so as you're recording currently it is 36 beats 36 25 36 26 26 all of the world all of the world and that's how star wars time works Yes. Anyway. My point being, Rob, it's Star Wars. Yeah. Things run in emotional truths. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Only together can they fly the ship and pull it out of its dive. Yeah. I do like when they rigged up a suicide drone, basically, and flew to the Imperial Cruiser and blast the shit out of it. That was great.

Yeah. We know those guys didn't get off that ship. rebels keeps trying to mask the fact that like tons of humans are getting killed oh it's okay to show like the the mining guild guy get chomped by a pergill yeah but like they're like oh the ship's going down get to the escape pods I didn't see any launches well no that ship blows out that reminds me did Ezra force push a guy off of the the edge of like a landing platform in an early episode in the pergill episode I think so yeah yeah there's a real home of me he's manning the cannon he's shooting at people Yeah, I was just like, all right. Yeah. In this episode, he launches that fighter, which is kind of cool. They, like, lower it down through technology. Then he force hovers it and pushes it out the gate, you know, you know, it's fun.

Nothing more important to him than family. Well, when Canaan, like, asks him to come and do the force persuasion, I thought it was like an execution. oh my god he's like he's like now he's like now esra it's your turn and i was like and the guy's just like standing there like what is supposed i was like what the fuck is gonna is this like is this the backstab moment that i've been asking for has the monkey paw curled into this like bizarre that would be very funny but no he just got to do force persuasion for the first time finally yeah um yeah yeah the they get it and it's cool they get this cool ship the ship like is now part of the big fleet

um it the growing fleet of the rebels is a fun visual tracker of like how things are going yeah yeah phoenix squadron way more increasingly not a squadron yeah it's it's it's getting bigger than that yeah so yeah i know the fact that they're like the fact that they're losing people on in in fights and stuff like they have have it it's to me lends itself to that to this idea she says that hera says at one point in the earlier um is it in the previous episode that uh oh no this is at the beginning of the next one actually i think okay we'll get there in a second i the last thing obviously here is also her and cham making up and her him being like finally mentioning the mother and saying

that like, you know, after your mom died, you know, I was sad or whatever. When you left, I was heartbroken, you know, but when I look at you, I understand you're like your mother, you know, you're a dreamer. You, you know, you have this big picture of the whole thing. And she's like, I learned how to be a leader from you. And they have a big hug. And he's like, I'm proud of you, Captain Sundula. And it's a real, this is the scene that closes off the possibility of the rest of any other sham stuff going any other direction was like they they wanted that

to be the final scene of this episode was you know Harrah makes peace with her dad her dad sees in her this great new rebel leader and everything else has to kind of comport back to that it feels because if he's more of an asshole

at any point we can't get them hugging at the end right so they're a little boxed in here which brings me to a little pet pee This is just a broad television thing I have. There's a lot of parental propaganda in TV shows where it's like

at the end of it all, your parents just loved you and you got to forgive each other. And it's like, I feel like, you know who isn't seen by a lot of TV plots? People with truly dog shit parents. That's right.

Like people with like relationships that are kind of irreparable. And then you got to, especially around the holiday season, there's so much shit where it's like you only think it's irreparable. But if you use the problem, power of love and forgiveness even harder. Yep. It'll work. And it's like, man, if there's a cycle of abuse happening, then

let me tell you, that will not. And I think that's like, it's bad from a, like, dramatic standpoint. And I think it's kind of annoying if you, like, no people are, you're in that position where you have a more complicated relationship with family. And TV's always got to be, it's not complicated. No. You just misunderstand each other and didn't understand how you loved just talk it out. Talk it out. Talk it out. I mean, you'll figure it out. I mean, right. There's another version of the scene where he's like, well, maybe you were right about this one, but I still think you're wasting your time with those rebels. You'll see. You'll be heartbroken just like I was, downbeat. And then Ezra comes up and is like, don't listen to him. I believe

that family are the people you choose to surround yourself with, you know, or something like that. And in some ways, like, Clone Wars would have done that downbeat. Clone Wars was like kind of hit those downbeat end of episode moments, kind of a lot. Because Clone Wars is fundamentally a tragedy, right? and Rebels, I don't think is, because we know Rebels leads to a new hope, right? And I don't know what happened to these particular characters, but Clone Wars sometimes felt more comfortable in that downbeat ending. Not that I'm sure it also didn't have some parents are good, actually, episodes. Instead of parents, it was like your Jedi dad is good, actually.

I don't know. It's complicated. The fact that Clone Wars is a higher concept meant it means you have a little more freedom from falling into these pitfalls in a weird way. But yeah. All right. Finally, we have the honorable ones. And there's a lot to get into here.

It's all keep it very simple. Mission goes wrong. Zeb and Calas crash land an icy moon of geonosis. Callis leg is hurt in the landing, making him dependent on Zeb. But the two have, of course, crash landed in a monster cave. They have to work together to escape. But along the way, Callis opens up about what he did during the genocide. side of the Lassat and some of the things he's seen rebels do too.

By the end, the two formed a grudging respect and returned to their respective camps with a new understanding of who they are fighting against and perhaps who they are fighting alongside. So, first question, yo, where are the geonotian? What happened to the geon oceans? What happened to the bugs? Yeah. The bugs are a billion bugs are dead? Billions?

They come to the planet. It's ringed with construction. yards. Yeah. There's nothing under construction. No. And the planetary scan returns no life size. And that's what Rex freaks out.

He's like, no, no, no. There's billions of bugs down there. Chuck again. No, man. They're all gone. And Ezra, and this carries away from him, he's like, they're dead. Yeah. Because he's got that, like, he's got bug sense.

Yeah. That's right. If he says all the bugs are dead, then they're dead. Yeah. Yeah. I've had some apartments where I wish I would have had Ezra around to be like, no, they're all dead. You're good.

You got them all. They're all fucking gone. The spider didn't disappear. It died. It's dead, yeah. Wait, why are they going to geonosis? I think they're looking for, I think there's something supposed to be in the one of these construction yards. These orbital yards are supposed to have, I don't know, maybe they're still looking for a base and they're like, this could be a base.

Or are they looking for intel on what they were building? Maybe that's what it was. The empire was building something over geonosis. Now we know, genosis is where the, like, basically the sketch of the Death Star comes together. That is true. And so, like, the evidence here points to, you know how, like, there's always stories about, like, cruel lords and kings. After designing a castle, you would kill the designer. Yes, that nobody would know its secrets.

And to a degree, like, where the Geoenotians, like, put on, like, build the core of the Death Star. And then can't have anyone. especially not non-humans knowing about this Death Star. I hope we get an answer to this at some point. I mean, I hope that what we don't, what we find out about this place in this episode is not the answer, is not like the only answer that we do get because. What do we find out about this place?

Doesn't Callis like, he was like, he says like, I don't know what happened on genosis. I was just, I don't ask. questions or whatever. So at LaSotte. Well, he says, I don't know what, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

He does say that. He was there. Yeah. But he's, yeah. Woof. I, hmm. So they land on one of those orbital construction yards. Just Zeb and, and, oh, no, you're saying the whole crew.

Yeah. And they walk into an ambush. I feel like, man, Canaan, do you have any force danger sense, like working at all? Like, they walk into a huge ambush. It's huge. Why is Cal is here? why were they why were they waiting here i guess because so many this isn't i buy it when an inquisitor comes out of the shadows because they're force users right it's like holy shit there was an inquisitor hiding in

that cupboard but like when you got like a company of stormtroopers tie fighters like walkers like surrounding the hangar i'm like man somebody we have two force sensors on this thing and neither of you all like got a got the hebi-jeebies you couldn't give us a little like i've got a bad feeling about this because then at least we can acknowledge you had a bad feeling yeah mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah well no they're here they're when do we get the i have a good feeling about this hara drop is that from the first episode that was in the first episode and i wanted to report that as a crime because that uh line delivery the way that he says i have a good feeling about this Ezra delivers it, right?

Yes, Ezra delivers it. And it is like, you can't say that. You can't say, you can't be like, it's not a bad feeling this time. It's a good feeling. Why are you saying this sexy, Natalie? Why are you putting like? No, not sexy. It's like, it's not sexy.

It's not sexy. No, no, no. People are only listening or Natalie's doing like, I'm moving my body. I got a good feeling about this. It's just, it's like the, the, um. referencing the line. Yes, it's like he's right, he's in on the bit and you can't, you're a fucking, you are not real. You can't be referencing this bit. That is not right. So I wanted to report that because I thought that was not, yeah, that was not. Because it's not like he's been,

he's said, I have a bad feeling. I, he has said it, I think, in. I'm sure he said it, but I know what you're saying. Yeah, but it's not his bit. That's not like his line to be like, and I'm throwing, and I'm changing it up. Give me a catchphrase from something else. Like, it'd be like if he said like, Brain blast.

What? From Jimmy Neutron. No, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think, awesome was asking for a general catchphrase. I mean, I didn't say catchphrase, that's on me. But like, it's like if he had said, like, it's like if he had said, I have a feeling we're not on low thought. anymore.

Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? And it's like, whoa, you, have you seen Wizard of Oz? Do you have Wizard of Oz in your world? Because you just made a Wizard of Oz joke. This is Star Wars. He made a Star Wars reference. Exactly, exactly.

But maybe it is. Maybe I'm a bad feeling about this is like a thing you say. And maybe there was like a real big. Maybe in Star Wars, I've got a bad feeling about this is like the opposite of enchilla. When people are like, right. This is right. Yeah.

You know, I've got a bad feeling about this. You're talking about your mortgage payment in the spring. Right. Like you got that adjustable rate, huh? Yeah. I got a bad feeling about this. Or like it's, it's, maybe it's like a meme, you know? Like, like, Star Wars is the most recently had the like, you know, you're talking about blank, right?

The Padmae, you know, uh, Anakin thing. Maybe it's like that. Maybe it's like a thing that you, you know, maybe it's. You're saying Anakin would say memes. Yeah, he'd say shut up and take my money. Obi-Wan would say memes. Yeah, of course Obi-Wan would say memes. This episode is kind of a-

A bunch of Jedi sitting over their holocrons. I've got a bad feeling about this reels playing. That's what I'm saying, yeah. The Star Trek version of this episode is all about memes, actually. There's a Star Trek version of this episode in which Picard gets stuck. Yeah, Darmok and then-Gilada. And Janada. Tanagra. Yeah.

where Picard and an alien gets stuck on a planet together and the alien comes from a culture that only speaks in idioms like it doesn't there's no like individual words you wouldn't say like I'm gonna go get milk from the corner store you would say like you know Homer Simpson went to the store and bought some milk and that would communicate to the person you're hearing that you're going to go do that or whatever and Picard has to like figure that out. It's like the two of them have to bond and like learn each other's

language. Anyway, my point is memes exist in these science fiction universes. We just don't know them as memes. So maybe I have a bad feeling about this is one of them. Memes are old. People have always had memes. But I just don't think that Obi-Wan would say memes. Everybody says memes. It's just that we didn't think of them as memes because we didn't produce them rapidly and like, I'm going to throw this word out there. I'm really. I'm really skeptical of saying it, but like democratically in the same way. But like, here's Johnny was a meme, right? I don't think my dad has ever said a meme. He has because memes aren't a thing from the internet. A meme is just a small, a unit of- But I don't think my dad has ever

referenced anything. He absolutely has. He's absolutely seen a three-pointer going and go, bang, that's a meme right or like and if he's ever said swish if he's ever said that's a home run that's a meme if he's ever said like um that was a close call that's a meme okay okay uh like but yeah language is just it's big it's well i feel like we're no but i feel like we are conflating idiom with meme there idioms are a type of mean yeah idioms are a type of meme and especially early on in their in their origination and like especially someone who lived through war times where you're being blasted with propaganda yeah absolutely your father has 100% said a meme I promise you or if you look through commercials yeah he wouldn't like he

wouldn't reference a commercial I know he wouldn't say was up but there was probably a commercial when he was 16 years old on the radio where they said 1-877 cars for kids and he said it to his friend. Yeah, but yeah. I don't think in my lifetime, he said a meme. But I believe that maybe in, maybe in, because I can't even imagine him being like,

G, I don't know. Maybe like. Did you say G. Willikers? How old is your dad? My dad's not very old, but he like, he's not really he's not like tapped in you know what I mean

but he also doesn't watch anything like he doesn't watch TV he doesn't really watch movies he's just kind of like yeah he just kind of exists he's not a sports guy he's not a car guy he's a sports guy but he's not a sports

but he won't be but he won't be like he would never be like bang like when you said or like swish he would never say yeah he's just like I'm learning a lot about my dad through this conversation but I think I'm gonna listen

next time I'm hang out with him I'm gonna listen closely and see what meme what meme type he is I understand Rob but Austin are we saying when someone's like on what meat does this Caesar feed when they don't like something of the envy or like someone's a piece of shit is that a meme or is that a like is that an idiomatic quote it's an idiotic quote but like when it spreads through culture

and everyone is saying it and it's like especially if there's like a visual component to it especially if everyone's like referencing a thing that happened on stage or if it's like Uncle Sam wants you

I think the more condensed the meaning has to get the more memetic it gets if that makes sense where it's like if like to me what defines kind of the meme is like the Darmak

and Jalata Tanagra thing really like it's specifically about it's specifically about mimicry It's specifically about communicating something by mimicking something that you've picked up through culture, which is why something like saying swish is a mean, right? It's not just an idiom. It's not just, oh, I'm going to run out.

I'll be right back. And like run out doesn't mean, literally does not mean I'm going to run. I'm not running anywhere, right, obviously. But something that has a by imitation, by imitating some sort of cultural production in a brief, punchy way to communicate something broader or something like to communicate all the weight that comes in that little package, that's a meme. That's always been a meme. We've had those since ancient times. Like pulling at your shirt collar. Yeah.

And now someone invented that. And today, that might just be an idiom, but it's spread as a mean. Yes. Like, think about the, the, um, when that family guy episode came out where Peter excuses himself, uh, from the scene. And he does the, it's the equivalent of the play of the shirt collar, but he's like, I don't remember his fuck, the actual lines. He was like, I'm, you know, I'll be leaving that. What do the fuck he says? People did that for like a decade.

And by the end of it, people were saying without referencing, yeah, family guy, because the memetic explosion. was complete, right? But it started as a meme. Yeah. I'm all in on this. Yeah. Your dad has said a meme.

I need to figure out what kind of meme it was. Like what genre of me? I bet we've seen Obi-Wan say a meme, but I don't know what it is. Oh. And I don't think it is, I have a bad feeling about this, unless there's like an important hollow opera where someone says that and that everyone's quoting you, which isn't what's happening. I'm not defending this, for real.

no join us next month for our special Patreon episode where we're going to read the selfish gene and just go back to the source and get to the bottom of this and then we're going to read some choice tweets of Richard Dawkins and become memes

like the I need a fat bitch tweet that's a great tweet all timer all timer someone if people know in universe canon Star Wars memes but by the definition we've just laid out, please let us know. We don't know enough about the world of Star Wars to know, like, what pop culture is. You know? Oh, shit, I just thought of something.

So in the Thai Fighter books at one point, they start referring to imperial ships all suffer from trench run disorder. Describing that they are all vulnerable to close-in Starfighter attacks that all their advantages are in long-range capital ship conflict and every time like republic fighter squadrons can get in close uh the t like trd begins to take its toll and it's oh it's game worth of the imperials that like oh it's yet another imperial design this suffers from trench run disorder do they ever jump to describing someone as having trench run disorder because that's the moment do you know what i mean the moment you're like oh you're not going to have someone who's never been a combat pilot it's just like oh man like like

that place has trench run disorder exactly yeah you know yeah 100 percent you know like the very cruel um uh way people would describe someone as being like um like impressionistically beautiful like oh from a long way away they look pretty but then you get close like if they use trench run disorder in that way where they're like from a far way off you can keep this person at an arm's length they're all right but the second you get close to them da da da da da then then then i think that would count this exists because especially in the novels, there's so much space to talk about the world of Star Wars. I bet there's something in my propaganda book. Oh, for sure.

Or maybe in the encyclopedias. Yeah. The only thing I can think of is how people say like, Anakin invented the word trans and Star Wars. He did do that. I forgot about that. Wait, what? What?

In one of the novels. Yeah, in one of the novels, he is interacting with a, like a transgender, clone clone clone just they're clones and like

coins the term that she uses for herself and she's like yeah that's I'm you know is it transcendent

I forget exactly what the yeah it's like something like that and then people are like wow Anakin trans rights

but people like to make those tweets people do like to make those tweets this is true and that's the world of Star Wars are people

People in the world of Star Wars also making those tweets. Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, like, that's the thing. The tweet is assuming that, like, from that interaction, assuming that that takes over culturally within Star Wars culture. But, yeah. From that one interaction between Anakin and this person.

Well, assuming that person, you know, lives their life with that. Sure, sure, sure. You know, with that label and, you know, communicates to other people that communicate to other people. Wow. Anakin's power. But it's weird that, like, people aren't interested in Star Wars culture that way. I guess because it's like there's no... It's never depicted.

Right. They go to the opera at the time, and it looks boring, so we don't learn anything about it. They love swoop racing. If they, if the chess, the Dejaroic game between Chewy and whoever had been on TV and the announcer had said, That's the wookie win, people would have gone crazy with that on Twitter. You know? But this is also like how we used to talk about how like there weren't news broadcasts, for instance. Like I don't know, like I don't know if nemicification can happen.

But there were nobody, the Jedi just didn't watch them because there's that entire news broadcast for Palpatine's like, don't blame the Jedi and their shitty, this man's war. And the fact that you were suffering because they're such terrible generals. I don't blame them for that. Neither should you. Can we talk about problematic gowie now? Yeah, we talk about problematic gowie. Also, like the zillow beast never being referred to? Zillow beast would become a meme.

Zillow beast would have been a huge meme. Huge meme. Huge meme. Huge meme. Huge meme. Is it a meme if that's just the name of the creature, though? It depends on what, that would be, the fact that, like, you'd be like, damn, y'all got zillobese. It's like the way.

it's like the way like people that was just post pictures of the twin towers with something like some character like never forget or just like the George Bush hearing about the second tower like sure yeah yeah it would be like a picture

of Palpatine and there would be people being like I cannot believe you're making jokes about the Zillow beast 35 years later that's right imagine imagine like a paparazzi photo of Palpatine writing on our He's back.

Like, that would be the meme. I bet in the world of Star Wars, order 66 is a meme. Fuck, yeah. No, 100%. Right? 100%. 100%. For sure.

Anyway, I like, the way like 86 is shorthand for just like cancel something. Yeah. Oh, we got a 66th. Hey, could you just 66 the fries? It's so fucked up. That's what I'm saying. That's so bad. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Jesus. Next time I go to Batu, I order food. I'm going to be like, actually, 66 that for me, my friend. You're at the party. You're just like, want to 66 this place? Yeah, exactly. So wild.

It's good. All right. So let's talk about the problem. The point is, ambush, you know, it's a serious one because they got an evil R2 unit to help out. Yep. Callis is there. He and Zeb lock eyes. Calas has once again got his,

whatever fuck that weapon is called. The LaSot. The Bocaster? Batleff. Bocaster thing. I don't remember. It's not a bocaster because it's more, it's like a unique thing for them, isn't it?

It's a, um, uh, what is it called? I don't know what it's called. I'll look them up. But either way, they start brawling. And immediately they're brawling so intensely. They just leave everyone behind.

Yeah. I think it's called. And then the door shots behind them. it's called a bow rifle because it's like a bow staff plus a rifle sure absolutely the rest of the gang

has to fight their way out Zeb and Callis just continuing to go at it and then Zebs like I'll make my own way out of here like bull rushes a bunch stormtroopers guest to an escape pod

and as it launches Callis launches himself into the escape pod they start brawling in the fight they knock out one of its engines they go off course and both of them realize, oh, God, we're going to crash.

They stop fighting. Callis grabs the controls and they have up as they crash into this ice ball. And Callis, like, breaks his leg. There's a lot of screaming callus in this episode. He is always yelling. It goes bad for him. It's a bad sprain. Like, I think it can't be a break because there's some stuff later on that if it was broken,

it would be permanent leg damage. This is one of those things where, like, they should. like they wait and then they're like we're going to show this on replay it does not look good but then like the guy does some stretches with the trainer and it's fine so you'd love to see that uh you know he's he's walked off under his own power folks uh before we get down to the planet i just want to shout out the maneuver that hera does with the ghost where she like spins it upside down and flies it through the space station to escape it's really cool that's all I feel like they're also doing something more, I think cross these episodes, but especially in this one.

Camera, plane of reference, stable, ship rotating around the camera, a bit more to give you the sense of, like, the motion and the aerobatics of the fights. Yeah. Which is a fun technique. I think that is something they did more in a new hope than they did in later movies, right? I feel like there's a lot of spinning in the cockpits a bit in that movie, but either way. that's not what we're here to talk about. We're not here to talk about wrecks laying waste to all those walkers or them like combing the genosis system for like,

where could they be? We're here to talk about Zeb and Calis waking up aboard that ship. Zeb thinks about killing him, drags him out of the wreck and says, we'll finish our fight. I'd rather finish our fight when you're healed. Boo! Boo!

Oh, you should just shot him. And then kill that guy, but he's too pathetic and weak. He's like, he's too broken to do it. The only way it makes sense to me is if Zeb already has a huge crush on him, which is fucked up. Which is, and you know, the heart wants more wants, I guess. Couldn't be me. Talk to me about it. Yeah.

I think that this would feel worse if we did not just have, like, emotional growth and, like, the sort of close of the like I'm the last of my people from Zeb in a couple episodes ago I'm not I don't ship them I don't support it makes it worse for me because it makes that feel like it was the necessary first maneuver talking about two-part plans before and it makes me feel like that was the first part plan learning that his species really kill all them we saw exactly that opens the door for this romantic rendezvous nobody ever talks about the room full of children Anakin didn't kill that's right yeah it's like revealing oh actually that was just one room and actually there's a second

bigger original Jedi temple where everybody got to live and it was fine over there so you know he didn't really exterminate all the Jedi he didn't really exterminate all you know here we're talking they called the Lassat massacre here also later which really downplays what I thought the situation was from before could actually rob you went back and watched the previous conversation around that stuff for the previous episode So there's a few things So we know that Zeb Thinks he was the last of his kind

Correct Like literally he thinks he's the last LaSat in the galaxy Yeah In the previous episode basically Three episodes of year later Yeah And then when they first fight Back on Lothal

Calus brings out the bow rifle And brandishes it as a taunt And says like he took it off like this I didn't this I didn't rewatch but he says he took it off like a dead dead Lassat during the attack when they when they wiped out

Lassan and they have to they retcon that in this episode but he definitely was like yeah hell yeah like I slaughtered your people and then I took this weapon as a trophy and now none of that is true all of it's different

because we're going to have some sympathy for the imperialist here. And it's not like, so the thing is we talked about that there's going to be a class of people working for the empire that if they actually knew what the empire was

wouldn't be down with it. Like that they, like, that they genuinely think, the Cyril Carn thing. Cyril Carn, what gets him to trouble is that he solves a murder like ultimately he's an asshole he's like he's ambitious he's kind of an asshole but like really the fundamental thing is he's like we should investigate a murder everyone's like no we shouldn't are you an

idiot and he is but fundamentally he's like but i want to be a cop i want to bring order i want to you know somebody should somebody should like arrest this killer but cyro carne thinks he's the good guy and views the world through that lens you can imagine a lot of people working the empire think like we are on the side of order we bring prosperity peace security to a lot of people we do good things even the empire doesn't always that callus fits that description is a bit of a reach but they're going to make it here three episodes ago he was saying the thing about the the rebels is they always try to help people yeah yeah i'm not buying the shit at all You know what?

You know what this? Here's my fear about what's actually going on here. And this happens on so many TV shows. Yeah. You fall in love of the character and approach you and an actor. And you're just like, this is the, they're like going back to Buffy, which we talked about, like, we talked about, like, we talked about, like, this is a classic example. Again and again, they box themselves in with, they write a really interesting character, a good villain. And then they're like, fuck, it's so good.

This villain's so good. gotta make him not a villain and Spike's the classic example of when Spike comes into Buffy it is like that show gets a shot in the arm becomes a good show basically with his arrival it goes on long enough that they're like we can't write this guy out he can't be out

once he's spent as a villain they rehab him and now he's a good guy and the reason you do that is because it's a hell of a character it's a good performance it's a good performance I think that's what this is because I don't know that Callis is a hell of a character I think we've actually had some mixed notes on callus where we've been like he's kind of a pushover sometimes and other times he's supposed to

be kind of like serious and on the up and up and kind of like upcoming and and and yeah uh rising to the ranks and oh look at him hold his own in a room with vader that's interesting and other times he's like a complete punk but what's always good is the performance he's his lines are delivered well uh his actor has like a real um presence whenever he speaks yeah um and it really does feel like damn we want this guy to be more more central in the coming seasons unfortunately he did a genocide yeah it makes me wonder of like what the fandom response to callus was during this time too because it also does feel like sort of the writing decision of like oh the fandom really responded to this guy so we want him to you know be closer to the main cast in some way

instead of just being like a direct protagonist or antagonist because like I you know it's interesting that he is the one who walks back his bravado like admittedly like in that scene he admits like you know I I knew they were just making an example of people and I didn't like it but until now I've been acting like I was hot shit about it yeah and like it's a decision worth making I guess It makes him more interesting. Like I, but yeah, I. Can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I, can't be able. The, the, the kind of big central part of the felony zone.

Um, let me see. I can get there. Here we go. Three, two, one, go. Zeb gets trapped on a freezing moon in the honorable ones with one of his mortal enemies, Agent Callis. How are the pair able to work together to survive? They're both warriors and the end. They understand that.

They understand they have to do what's necessary to survive. And in that process, I think there's a bonding between them and an unfoldment of parts of their past that they either weren't willing to look at or weren't able to look at. I think it's one of my favorite moments actually working on the show. We get to see another side of Callis in this episode. How do you go about changing the character of a villain into someone that audiences can be sympathetic with? Callis builds on some of what fandom has appreciated from the empire. And the vast organization that is the...

This is Rob's point. People who thought they were doing the right thing. Now we're giving the opportunity. to give those characters a moment of pause and reflection and ask themselves, are they really doing the right thing? Calus, based on his first encounter of the Sot, kind of judged Zeb with the same lens. And that's something we really wanted to explore,

is once you get to know your enemy, you realize that you have more in common. I personally hate the idea of like a one-dimensional villain because you really don't know what's driving them. And Callis, I think what's really interesting about him is we're finally getting to see the other side of him develop and revealed. I started to draw Zeb and Callis sitting and talking and you start to see that image.

Just draw, drawing it. And I think the fun thing is that Callis is more exuberant. Turns the page on the Asoka. He starts drawing his two boys sitting around the fire. The freak out sounds he's making, you start to root for them as a team together. And we want to contrast the warmth that Zepp is see versus the cold nature of the empire. This is basically the first act of the name of the piece. Let's be real here.

What's happened there since then? Well, the last time we saw Gianosis, or it was implied we saw Gionosis, was actually at the end of Revenge of the Sith. It was this sort of incubation place where the Death Star project was originated, because Genned is a startup incubator for the Empire. He started to wonder, like, how they're building this thing. Even in a galaxy, how are they keeping it secret? Just in the supplies alone, you know, there must be a bigger story

for how they're keeping everybody quietly buying everybody off. We just decided to touch upon that story briefly. The really ominous note is that Ezra gets the feeling that something terrible has happened on the planet. He's not sensing any life. The mystery of geonosis is something we'll definitely explore later on in the series. Chopper in this episode goes and makes copies of himself on. Nice. That's kind of the whole thing there.

And then we get Pablo and Andy talking about, hey, if Hara is Champson Dula's daughter then who is the other little girl in those episodes not Hara, no one's no one important is what the answer was to that one and then the other one I think didn't quite matter and then no one look at this because this is next time on all right

it's very funny to hear them you know I often think about where does this idea start and Dave being like well I drew them together and it felt right feels exactly right for how we get here Right, which is like, ooh, they do kind of have, they kind of buzzes, right? Like, these two characters have an energy that, like, is interesting when you draw them out sitting around a little orb that lights them up, because that's, by the way, what they end up finding.

They crash into the ice planet and they need some energy and their power reactor breaks. And so they find a little, like, glowy meteorite thing and found you this egg man. Don't read anything you knew it. simply true just keep this egg close to your heart keep this glowing egg close to your heart

and I think when you think of it that way I get how you get here but boy Ali go ahead I yeah I just do think it falls apart when you think of the like why would Zeb not even kill him

because we're going to have a later episode where callus is being the you know the cat to their mouse and the situation is going to be dangerous since like, wow, if Callas wasn't here, that would be great. And, like, Callis is, like, the, like, squadron head. Maybe this is it. Maybe the next time we see Callis, he's going to flip.

Right. Well, sure. Because we're towards the end of the episode, right? So. Yeah. I feel like if you want to make this, like, mean anything, it's got to be a meaningful step in Callis change. Like, but that's so quick. But I hope it takes a while.

This is, I don't know. So the thing, the thing. There's a number of things that I think are not working here and some of it is just they didn't it felt early on like they really had dialed in callous

but I think over time they lost like he went out of calibration is the way I would put it. Like because toward the end of the first season one of the things that I was picking up on was the Inquisitor scared the shit out of callus. Like it was the vibe you pick up on

is like oh this is a level of like chaos and like sadism that I just haven't encountered here before. Like Tarkin, the Grand Inquisitor, like Callas and Big Hat Lady are both kind of like, what the fuck has just happened here. And then when you find him in this season, he's like, hey, yes, Mr. Vader, he's gone to full lackey mode. And you don't pick up on he's doing it because he's afraid or anything like that.

You get the sense that he loves being this proximate. to the darkest stuff the Empire does. Yep. Which dovetails with the guy who's like, see, Zeb, I've got the weapon of your people from the time I massacred them. Yes. The one that the first villain that Henry Giller, I was just saying he didn't like doing.

He's been that this season. Yeah. He's been that in some ways since the jump, but especially this season. Last season, there's more, like, I went back and watched the first scene he has with Ezra, when Ezra's like, nobody's going to come for me. that's all people do. Right, right, right. And he has this, like, slightly tender, aloof moment with

Ezra, where he comes up close to the kid, looks him over, brushes his shoulder off, and then leaves, and tells the stormtroopers to search him. But you get the sense that, like, you get in that sense that there's a degree of empathy, the callus is masking, that he understands what it is to be that kid. And I think throughout the first season, you feel like I can't quite get a fix on callous, but in a good way. The second season, Yeah, that you do get a fix on them. The fix is bad because it's the rebels always try to help people. Yeah.

And we skip something here that we have not, we actually have to talk about, which is what happens? What is the reason he is the way he is? Why did he put? I came into this thinking, okay, we're going to get a reveal. He wasn't, he actually was deployed to the massacre, but he, but he refused to do it. He, you know, and he found this stick. had to, like, he used it as a trophy to say that he was part of it, but he wasn't really, or, you know, something. I don't, I don't know what. And I knew it would be, it would be awkward

and it would be, you know, kind of, um, there's a word I'm looking for here where it's like, you know, just tortured. It would be tortured to try to get his hands clean of this. But instead, what we get is his story for why he was willing to kill them all, which is that. And how he came by the weapon. Well, no, that's a second story. There's two. two stories. The second, the way he came out the weapon is he did a one-on-one honorable duel with a Lassat and he beat the Lassat and Lassat. That's the first story he tells. He tells the story of the weapon first. Sorry, but my point being chronologically in his life, the reason he was willing to, the reason he's like, yeah, we're going to put down the Lassat is because

he was part of a, uh, an action on Anderan, uh, where we know our boy Saul Guerrera is. In fact, Saul Guerrera mentioned, first Saul Guerrera mentioned, I think, in rebels. Um, And a division, a unit, you know, a cell connected to the Sal Guerrera group, attacked his people. And there was a Lassat who brutally killed all of the people from the imperial unit that Callis was part of. Including the wounded. Including the wounded. I don't care. I don't care.

Yeah, fuck them. You know? In fact, rewind 15 minutes. We said, Callis broke his leg and that we should, that Zeb should have killed. him. We don't care. Like, I, I, the rebel, the occupation does not get to play that card against, I mean, I guess I don't know what the situation on Anderan is. I remember what it used to be. I suspect it's very similar again, but now with the Imperials instead of the Confederacy.

Yeah, these are the guys building the Death Star, okay? Like, you are building, what do you mean? Well, it's shades of, you know who it reminds me of is. And Emmanuel Myberg wrote that piece for Waypoint. Was it for Waypoint? Was it for a former board back in the day. It was Waypoint. For, yeah, for about Last of Us, too. And about Neil Druckman's, like, absolutely broken view of Palestine and Israel.

And, like, what we get here is this, is this guy being like, you know, the one Lassat I saw was cruel and vicious. And the one Lassat he saw was a rebel fighting against Imperials, right? Like, it was someone part of an occupied group fighting against Imperials. And that justifies for him the, what he calls a massacre. But what we know is the near eradication of an entire people as far as we knew at the time. Now we know that there's this other planet where there's a bunch of them still. That's like a different culture. This whole logic, yeah, the whole logic is so forced because that LaSotte had to be like, you know,

have, be so devoid of morals, of morality that he would, and human, you know, compassion that he would injure, or that he would kill the injured, but he left, but why, then why would he leave Callis alive? And Callis is like, and I wonder that. It's like, yeah, because it doesn't make any fucking sense. And then, and then, and then for the next, the next justification of how Callis got. the weapon that he the the la sot only class weapon uh that he is because of a la sot custom yeah the jersey swap the jersey swap yeah yeah the hats like no no you can't write in like a like a la sot honor thing that when you one v one a la sot you you get their weapon if you win and that makes it okay that he has been using this LaSot. Bro, they were scrambling in the writer's room. It's so, it's so forced. It is like, they're trying to write themselves out of,

it's like, it's like some Moncal shit. Like they got, like, whoever, it's, it's so, it just, it's, there's nothing about this that has any legs to stand on. It is so devoid of, like, you're not winning me over. And I'm, I'm Cyril Karn's number one fan and you are not winning me with the shit. It's, it's so hard to claw back from what we've heard him say. You know? Rob, you were going to say something.

I stopped on. Well, I was just like, so one, it drives me, it drives me nuts that, that Zeb is like a shame. Here's that story about the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, uh, the, the, the, uh, it's, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing You would kill those people I've seen you at work You get mad when you all can't finish the job sometimes And this is the other thing is that like

We get in this place a lot Where Twice in the previous arc There were jokes about how the rebels don't take prisoners Anyway I think part of it too is like One of the things the power is fascinated by is the power of being a victim.

Yes. Is that like, why do these people have moral, why did they have the moral high ground over us? And it's because, well, because it is incumbent on you as the person with the power in the situation to, you know, out of decency or whatever, find the compromise to be less cruel, be less violent.

But the notion that resistance to an imperial colonial power must adhere to like the highest standards of humane conduct as laid out by like traditional like state actors and like professionalized militaries. That is a fig leaf. That is that is a way to disguise the true imbalance of power here, which is like there's a reason they aren't going to take prisoners. First and foremost, they can't.

Like the only way they win is by making the occupation of a place like Anderon prohibitively high. They do not have the capacity to go take prisoners because they can't guard them, they can't hide them, they probably can't care for them, but they can't let them go because then they will just continue to be combatants against them and they will not become part of the cost of the occupation. So they're going to kill, they're going to kill the wounded, they're not going to spare any of these guys they find. And what we know about the empire is based on the way they conduct war, they also don't deserve it. This is not one episode away from hearing about the slaving operations on Ryloth, you know? Yeah, this is, this is not like a bunch of like American troops getting machine gun during the Battle of the Bulge. Yes.

This is like, this is more like, I don't know, a bomber pilot crashing in a place these was bombing the shit out of and being, but they tortured me. And then, and then like, they tortured and killed this guy. do you think maybe from their perspective he probably had it coming the asymmetry thing is the thing that hits me so big i i um you know for my sins i have been listening to serial season four uh about the um about guantanamo bay uh the quantum bay detention center um and the most recent two part episode was about the very bad year um where a new guy came to try to like run the place uh it all went really bad and it all went really bad and it ended up in one of the biggest, it ended up with a number of detainee deaths, some of them

from suicide. I believe, actually, I believe three of them from suicide. It included a big fight, et cetera. And there are so many people on the record from the U.S. government being like, you know, they were trying to kick our asses. They were so mean to us. They threw pee on us. They were making our lives hard by not eating. They refused to eat. And then we had to put them in the hunger chair. We had to put them in the force feed chair. You're feeding to. Yeah. And at no point, I'm deeply frustrated with the show because, because, I mean, I think there's a, there's a real, like, the value of getting them to say shit on air is high. The value of getting some American military personnel to admit this shit and to

talk about it openly is, is real. But also, um, the way that you do that is partly by like only pushing back softly and in certain places. This is access journalism, one of one-on-one type criticism, but like, um, people at Guantanamo Bay were in an impossible position. Right, exactly. And I don't think the show is defending them often, but it's, it's really like, it, the thing that it doesn't zero in on enough is the incredible asymmetry of power. There is nothing a single detainee could do that came close to the amount of oppressive power that was at work. in how much the prisoners' lives were being limited and ruined, including prisoners who, of course, would be found to be not guilty of anything

and released, never having been charged with a crime for after years and years and years. Gitmo is a thing where, like, even the people, like, the architects of 9-11, after 20 years of like treatment aboard Guantanamo Bay, you'd be like, I don't know if this is, I don't think you can do this. I don't think you can do it. The fact that they were just rounding people up and being like, Hey, Northern Alliance warlord, what this guy do? Oh, don't worry about it.

He's huge and al-Qaeda or Taliban or whatever. Great. Let's pack him off. He goes too. Yeah. Uh-huh. So I say all that to say, we have that situation here. I think Robbie, you've identified exactly it.

Power loves to be a victim. Power loves to put on victimhood. Callis does it here. And then Zeb lets him walk with it because the show just doesn't have its head around this stuff well. You know? Andor has its head around that stuff well. You go and you rewatch the Aldani stuff and you hear how the imperial officers and the stormtroopers talk about the Aldani and how annoying they are and how frustrating their stupid little festival is or their stupid little ceremony is and how they're smelly and all. You know, like they're away and how they're inconvenient to deal with and stuff like that.

that's a show that understands that that sort of victimhood is empty, you know, and, you know, it's, we really love Andorra. I know we can't hold this children's television show to the same standard. But I do think that in the same way that Rob, you mentioned earlier, the kind of pernicious, like, parents are always good and they're doing their best. Maybe they come at a situation wrong and, and da-da-da-da-da, but you can find your way forward. Another one of these in children's media is the thing of, like, enemies can become friends if only you talk it out. and if only you realize you're more like each other than not. I, you know, I don't want to say that there are no imperials who could be won over and brought to the rebellion.

I mean, we know Sabine was one, right? We know that plenty of rebels. Chris May Dean would like a word. Sure. Exactly. But. I mean, yeah, I feel like they're trying so hard to set this up because even early, when they first crash land they have a conversation where callus is like we're uh you know we're we're

turning informants and we're we're gathering more uh imperial sympathizers by the day and and zeb like counters him and is like and we're turning more more and more imperial uh you know like people under imperial rule over to the rebellion to the resistance so like and and it's you just you can't do it with this guy like it has to get another guy yeah to be this like Cyril Karn is okay I get it I get it I'm with you is a guy that you can't be more like Cyril Karn because he's he is he's he's complicit in a system that he doesn't understand and and thinks he is somebody who thinks he's doing the right thing but he is enacting like he is a

part of this evil imperial machine, callus is a commander. Callis is directly issuing orders that are killing people. He is doing it by his own hand. You can't feign ignorance. Like he is so far past. Maybe if this had happened like a season and a half, like there's just, we've seen Callis do too many things. that are...

That's also true. Yeah. That are like carrying out the imperial, you know, fist that makes, that renders him. It's just, he can't, he's too evil already. I see, so there's the thing. I actually think, probably he's not because I do think, like, people do a lot of things and can be brought back to some extent or made useful in some other way. Certainly made useful.

Yeah. But they're trying a speed run redemption arc. We just didn't need it. Right. And the other thing is that, and the moves they make here, like, are so labored because we start out, what gets this whole ball rolling is he says, the only thing I know about geneosis is the population is gone. I never ask questions. And Zeb, maybe you should start. And there's, again, yes, without the backstory arena on Callas, you could imagine like a, this is a way you turn Cyril Karn.

Hey, like, what, do you ever wonder what happened with people? Oh, start asking questions, yeah. But with Callas, he does know. And so what they try to get to then is, well, yeah, he knew, he went to Lassan and he knew the Empire wanted to make an example out of them, but like he didn't know it was going to go so bad. Yeah, it wasn't supposed to be a massacre. That's what he says. But then he realized the other one to make an example. I just really want to emphasize this.

A massacre is a, the way that we talk about massacres, a massacre, of course, I think does not have a clear, single, legal, or scholarly definition, but a massacre is a thing that happens in one place at one time is a event in chronological, like, unity, right? Ken and Forrest, after all, after the Soviets take a bunch of, Polish officers, they commit a massacre. They commit a massacre, 100%. The reduction of a people on a planet to where Zeb thinks he's the only one. And then there's maybe two others.

Maybe there are a handful of others. Maybe a few others. Because it's, you know, genocide also does not mean the complete eradication of a people, right? It means the destruction of their culture. It means a bunch of other things. It means the attempt to do that, the like, you know, the applied ongoing attempt. attempt to do that. Genocide is what happened to his people, right? That's not a massacre. And it's so frustrating because the, I think there might be ways to bring Callis back aboard.

And the ones I'm most interested in, spend a lot of time with the tension that that would produce with Zemp, right? Like, imagine this is a Canaan and Callis episode instead. And then Canaan has to be like, eventually has to be like, I've actually spent time with Callis and he's not all bad. And Zeb is like, you did what? And there's tension. Like, that to me is way more interesting and generative than going this way, which flattens out.

Because if Zeb is going to say he's cool five, ten episodes from now, everybody else is like, well, I guess the guy who got genocided by this guy is fine with it. Then I guess we got to be too. There's something that they're doing where it's like almost like drawing callus off model because like they can't get to where they are without like denying everything about his characterization right before this it's like writing a different character like yeah i had this gun and i was slinging it and i was being cool about it but i didn't really mean that i'm sorry some guy gave it to me and i really respect him actually like it's just not there's there's like no

a to be there yeah well and it comes from them swinging too big to begin with and now wanting to be a little less bold with the outline you know early on they're like we got to introduce this guy We got to make sure that there's tension between him and protagonists. How do we add a lot of flavor and character to these characters? We have this new alien species of the Lassat. What if he was part of the eradication of that species? And then the last surviving one is a member of this crew. That's clean.

It's big. It's bold. We'll get introduced. And now they're like, ah, shit, we went too big with it. Let's start to scale it back down. Let's introduce this other planet of Lassat deep in the unknown space or wild space or whatever. Yeah. Let's do-da-da.

And I'm sympathetic. as a writer that you overdid it, especially as a writer of serial works. Like, I get it. Sometimes you do a thing in episode one, and you're at episode 25. You're like, well, I fucked up because what I really want to do is work, do something with this character that I cannot really do now, and we're going to have a bumpy time while we transition this character into this other role. It's tough, but it's really tough when it's this particular alignment of things.

And I actually have a second question, which is like, let's bracket all of this. Let's bracket, let's bracket the genocide. Let's bracket the fact that it's specifically Zeb and Callis. Let's bracket the weird tribal honor guard thing, which we could have spent 20 more minutes unpacking, but let's just bracket it and put it to the side. Y'all can guess where we feel about some of this stuff. Does it work? Do the two of them vibe?

Do the two of them have old man, Yowie energy that is interesting? This is not me. I'm not a leading question. I'm genuinely curious. If you can bring it to yourself to set that stuff aside, Dave draws them and says, I got some energy from them sitting around the campfire. That was in some ways the engine for this whole direction. Do they work? When they're working together, when they're fighting the big axe dinosaur, the axe head dinosaurs and they're cuddled up.

I don't see the fanfic in my head. I don't. I don't. Like, I even, like, aesthetically, like, I feel like there's nothing, you sit them next to each other, and I don't see them playing off each other in, like, interesting or compelling ways. I, they're just so, I think even their banter throughout this is like, it's so ham-fisted that I don't feel like they'd be bros outside of this. context like even if you know if they were just two guys same personalities right that like you know met in a bar or whatever they're watching the same game i don't feel like they'd really get along that well i don't know like they don't you're not catching enemies to lovers here

you're not catching the vibes of two too fuzzy two fuzzy guys coming together i there's something about it where like i do very much appreciate that like zeb is the person who's going to get in Callas's head. Like, if he's going to move away from the empire, it's going to be because he keeps thinking about this one guy. But, like, I don't ever want them to interact with each other again. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I got bad news.

I think, so I broadly don't think it works because, again, there's too much ham-fisted stuff happening here because there's too much of a speed run. Like, for me, one of the all-time, you want to see like this arc executed like maybe the best it's ever been midnight run Charles Grode and Robert De Niro two guys who genuinely detest each other and like it's a mean relationship at the start and it is a really like touching like male bonding movie by the end where like by the end they are they are family they are completely like bonded for life

even though they have to go their separate ways and the way you do that is like it just takes time And it requires a few conversations of slowly, like, cracking that shell. 48 hours is another good example of, like, racist cop and, and, and, it's a lot of race. This, this duo thing is like, yes, it's defiant ones. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a real, like, this thing of two, two people who are, I mean, quite literally defiant ones are chained together. Right. Yeah, locked together.

And, yeah, it can work. I don't, I've never been to Defiant Ones guy. I've always actually hated Defiant Ones. But, but, but yeah, I, I have room in my heart for these two enemies get stuck in the hostile place and they need each other for warmth. You can't do it with lines like I was only doing my duty. It was nothing personal. The response is, it was personal to me. Like, that's, I believe there's, I think there are shows or movies.

With that line, we're trying to pull that. It's like, motherfucker, it was personal to me. That was my family. That was my people. Yeah. You know, what we get does that, does that sentiment, he tries to say when Zeb is like, well, not all the sot are like that. Callas, does that sentiment apply to Imperials?

It's like, are you reverse racism in the fucking empire? Oh, yeah. Well, you think all imperials are bad. And it's like, because the empire is. bad. You're wearing the jersey of the people are like, we do bad shit, new genocides. That's what you're doing. That's what that uniform says. And some

of these characters would say, like, they don't know what that's what that uniform means, but Cowless does. And so we have too many moments of Calus trying to be like, I just, I didn't know that it was going to go this way. I felt like bad about it. I know I talked myself up. But I will say I do think they get somewhere.

By the end, I think they do get somewhere. And I think everything about this kind of like misses but there's a bit I love at the end yes the thing in the previous episode

I talked about the CHAM conversation with Hara being the sort of like teleological engine pulling the whole episode towards it every choice that you made had to get made so that you get Cham and Hera hugging at the end

the thing at the end of this episode the two receptions that they get when they go home is the thing that they were torturing themselves over to try to make sure that they could get there, right? Someone want to talk about what the difference is between calluses, reception, and zaps. This is what I was weakest.

I will say, like, this is, you know, this, it preys on me specifically as someone who loves to see a man be sad. Yeah. But throughout the, like, the, they're kind of, you know, lost at sea lost in snow debacle they're like fixing this transponder

but they have to get out of the ice pit so that they can so that it can breach anyone and yeah they they fix the transseb fixes the transponder so that it can contact anyone in the galaxy it's not like specifically attuned to the rebels or to the imperials so there's kind of this like back and forth of like oh who's going to answer first and they get to the top of the ice they're like hiding in a rock zeb has given him this hot glowing egg um egg rock that is keeping callous warm because zeb can stay warmer without it

he found this he didn't produce the egg i as he to say very clearly he found it in like a geothermal vent it's supposed to be like a meteorite and then birds came out really angry I will see yeah I don't know if we're gonna see Cave birds we're not happy Yeah You're right you're right Yeah you're right

That's a good point I hadn't put that together Yeah But Yeah so the low and behold Who comes first But the rebels You know Phoenix

Phoenix Squadron comes down And they're all like Zab we missed you We love you You're the man You're my uncle I love you so much And they're like, we're so worried about you.

We can't. We're so happy you're back. Blah, blah, blah. And Ezra's like, it's so cold. And Zeb is like, you've only been here for two seconds. And then he like looks back thoughtfully at callus. Because Calus, Zeb makes callus an offer. He's like, come with us.

You know, we'll treat you fairly. And Callis is like, I'll take my chances with the empire. And then he folds the egg in the callus. hands and his giant paws close over calluses and once again this is just beauty and the beast man it is it is like it's everything happens here but like putting the big cloak over in and you can see where like they're going to keep playing the hits on this one I think yeah yeah you don't set all this up and then never come back to it no I think it's going to definitely come back and I'm not even again I'm not mad at this happening I just in the clone

war's version of it that it of it happening over you know a season or over a course of three episodes then like we get more time to buy callus's position but in this it just it all happens too fast but anyway so uh you know zeb looks back wist wistfully at the rock where callus and him were hiding and uh and decides not to tell uh the rest of phoenix squadron that you know Callis is on the planet and he leaves with them. And then our next shot is like Callis, we don't see Calus get picked up. We see him kind of already on the imperial ship and he walks through a set of doors and there's like a stormtrooper that walks by him that like doesn't really acknowledge him,

I think. And then he sees an admiral and he's like. The Admiral he's been working with all season. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, hey, Admiral, whatever. And Admiral's like, what's up, Agent Callis and just like keeps walking. Less than that, he just looks up and says, Agent Callis and just keeps, like, it is, like, it is the least. No one gives the shit.

The shit got his name wrong. He should have been like. Yeah, Agent Gallus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then Callis, like, walks to his little. sad room in his little sad bed and it's so sad and he's so alone and this is where I was weak

but then I was like fuck this guy like he does not he hasn't earned my sympathy um but uh and yeah we're like presented you know with this juxtaposition is like oh callus is real you know callis witnessed the well uh the warm welcoming and the coming home of zeb to phoenix squadron but he returns to his imperial ship and nobody cares and he returns to his room alone with, you know, no fanfare. So like, oh, maybe, like, has Callas been wanting community? Like, has that been a motivation of Cal? Like, I'm just like, where is this coming from?

Like, Callis has never been about, like, he's never presented his position as what I'm here to do. do is like build an empire in which you know we have a community like we work together and like and it's one community of of the like there's just we've never had this motivation and that's not to say that he can't see something that zeb has and realize that that's something he wants we've seen that from other imperials where like again in ander there's the there's part of the big i think it's and or some of the big talk is about the empire as, you know, unified machine that, that, like, or maybe that was even in season one of this. Maybe that was the, there was the, there was the inquisitor was talking about the empire.

I was like, the empire is a, is a machine that functions, you know, we all have our place inside of it. And, and that's just not, callous hasn't been the, the voice for that, you know? Yeah. There's something here where, like, back to your point, before, Austin, about how, like, Calus should have needed to sit with Zeb's anger for this to be better. Like, and especially with this scene being successful, despite, you know, all of the other issues with the episode. Like, they could have done this so much more successfully if, like, the, the goal of the episode was to change the audience's relationship

with Calus instead of changing Zeb's relationship with Calus. Because, like, Zeb's opinion on Callis doesn't need to change. But if we sort of slowly see Callis be like, well, yeah, I'm not shit and I'm alone, you know, like sit with the experience on his own. You can go with that character and have the next beat be like this transformation. Yeah. Instead of like, oh, well, you know, I guess Zeb understands that he has that gun for an important reason now. Well, and like, I think, again, the longer built out version, but like this is so bad. badly handled. I don't think the longer built that version solves it because I don't think

the I don't think the way that's written they could have gotten there but like you would have had like callous to have to introspect about like hey dude maybe your experience is a buck private going on patrol and Anderon that went bad like didn't teach you everything you need to know about the galaxy like I know I know this like I know it probably was shitty thing to have happen and it probably sucked at all your like you know squadies got got but like do you not know the world do you not do not know what this galaxy is you not know what you were there doing um but the end of this the thing i do like about it the thing i like about it a little bit is i am a sucker for this sort of ending of the realization of suddenly all the things that you were

ambitious for the the status and your place in the world suddenly isn't worth anything to you because you realize the profound emptiness of it. That, like, you know, he's been working side by side with Admiral Constantine the entire season. He does not matter to Admiral Constantine. There's not even a bit of collegial warmth between them. It is just, you know, you go in your box and you come out when you need to do ISB stuff.

And I do like that as sort of a thing that we see cracking open with him is that like next to that suddenly has a thing that means something. to him and that's his little egg. That's cool. I just think this episode is so heavy-handed and so badly done.

What should have been maybe just a small crack of light for Calus at the end here is a barn door that's just sitting open. Like, well, he wasn't really a, he wasn't really an SS officer carrying out.

He wasn't really kind of part of like an Einstein's group you know, carrying out a genocide and also anyway, even if he was, he felt super bad about it. And also he swapped jerseys with this cool guy. Yeah. And now he and Zeb are friends.

And so we're ready to have this sort of frenemies arc with him. And maybe at some point he'll be, maybe he'll be, you know, an inside man for the rebels. For the rebels, yeah. Like, it feels like all that now is just, the door is just swinging open. And the most this episode could have achieved,

would be to have that crack of light around the darkness of his character. Yeah. It's a bummer because I think the, I think the core of, I think that the mistakes were not fully made in this episode. I think they were partly made in the setup.

And this is a, it's a tough one. Sometimes the mistakes got made six months ago. Sometimes the mistakes got made years ago. And now you've got to try to work your way out of it. But it's, in my experience, it's made worse when you just try to ignore that there were mistakes made and also

genuinely do think there is more interesting stuff being left on the table by you know paving over the Zeb enmity with callus it would be stronger to keep that material here and to

let that flourish because a real question in revolution is what happened when by, you know, hook or by crook, by chance or by fate or by hard work, someone who was your enemy is now in the trenches with you. Someone who did real harm to you is now aligned against your enemy. What do you do with that is really interesting and can be really productive and really fun. And you can do enemies to lover stuff in that space. And I know, I don't expect

this show to literally do enemies to lovers. There's going to be enemies to uncles. We know this. Rebel season three. The Knight Porter, what are you doing here? It's only going to get bus so gay. I know that in my heart. But regardless, that sort of arc can work, and it can even be really good. It's just hard to do when what you started with is so in a different genre, right? It was, it was, they deployed Callas as a big cartoon bad guy, and now they're trying

to give him, like, melodramatic relief. And, like, it's hard to. all that detail after the fact that when you were you were painting in creola colors and now you're trying to hang this shit up, you know, in a frame. And it's like, ah, you kind of, you got to do something first. Or you go to a jet to try it from a different perspective. And if they kept up, I think, the direction, because I do think they had this in mind, maybe from the start, but they just kind of botched it along the way. But like, if they kept up, if we had a moment where it's like, oh, you know where things started from Calus is like when he saw the Inquisitor execute those

two guys. Like if we, if this season open, we had the sense that like, he has almost the same hostage vibes as the governor's aide, the minister, Tua. If he also had this feeling of like just wide-eyed terror at like, because I would actually buy that like he could have done bad stuff and being around Tarkin and Vader for three months has him realizing like, oh, this is off the rails. Him realizing I want to do what Tua is doing. I want to leave.

But oh my God, she got killed. Nope. I have to button up. I have to be careful. I can't let what happened to her happen to me. I have to prove that I'm valuable and I have to wait. I have to wait. We were asking for a different show, right? And we were asking for, and we were also probably asking for fanfic that already exists that has filled in some of these gaps, right? But ain't that the way. well it's just a shame because like they're right that callus is an interesting character and like that this direction for him to go in could be compelling

yeah and yet and we're gonna keep seeing him honorable ones oh it is called the honorable ones fuck all why not just call it the clean ones this is it's annoying

just yeah it's it's not good this is you know it's I think like I think this can go cool places I'm interested in to see where they go with this I think it's just like the way they've launched this arc

is bad like I think they might I think this was part of a plan I think it does dovetail with some renditions of his character we've seen but this is meant for a kickoff of a cool arc and it's like we just watch that thing get shanked out of house

and like it's just not that's just not the way we start this like the other gold standard is probably Avatar the Prince Prince Zucco Prince Zucco Yeah

And that takes three seasons Really to get there Yeah And you have lots of fits and starts About him like growing up And like turning his back On what he's done What he's been a part of

Yep And that's kind of like The worst the stuff we've seen This character do with both eyes open The more narrative work you're not To do unpacking Why we should have sympathy And why we should let them

walk back from that. Yeah. And here we've known a guy like all total for like 15 minutes. Yeah. And for the first three, first five of those, he was like,

hell yeah, I genocide of the Lassat. And then for the last five, he's like, but you know, I really bonded with some of those the side. Exactly.

And I'd be like, this is Star Wars. This is the redemption arc. This is the er redemption art text in American media. You know, like fucking Darth Vader. There is good in him.

There is good in him. I, you know, so you have to hold out hope. That's Star Wars. But partly, Vader didn't get, you know, we'll talk about this one day when we get to return of the Jedi. But Vader fits a very familiar archetype of someone who can get redeemed and then vanish because it's hard to imagine redeeming Vader and then reincorporating him into the world. The rehabilitative story there is not one that is.

people get really well trained on as storytellers because it's complex and it's not the way our justice system works. It's not the way that our real life notions of redemption work. And Vader is a nightmare person who's done terrible things. Nevertheless, and I think that maybe that's part of the part of the thing here too. This was not callous saying, I did some bad things. I can't make it up to you. Here's the best I can do before I die or before I, whatever, Before I disappear, you know, you know what, I'm going to go off into the sunset, but let me save you first. There is nothing material. He does some stuff where he like helps callous climb a pillar or shoot at the dinosaurs or whatever.

Yeah, but the whole time he keeps like looking at his gun, like the whole time you're waiting for him to betray him. It's not even like. But it's not a big final act of redemption. It feels like what we're going towards is a joy in our side arc and not a, I've done so many bad things. try to make this right and sometimes that goes wrong too you know there are definitely shows and books and movies where that doesn't land either but vader lands for many reasons um and it just not this is not it's not up to vader snuff what is it's very funny to imagine the version where vader lives and then it's like uh luke we still need to conduct the crimes against

sentient species trial on vater what but no but he he's my dad Emperor into the, it's like, he's the only one left to answer for all this, Luke. And he is, let's, let me show you the file on your father. Yeah. Yeah, you didn't know about all this, did you? Yeah. You thought it was cool. He was like, you know, you're my son or whatever.

Yeah, no, he did some shit. He got up to it. Alderan is like the third worst thing he did. Yeah. Three more episodes next time? I think it's three more. It's three more, and then it's two after that, and then we'll be done the season. Damn.

Do we think Calas is still in the empire by the end of the season? Because the speed at which they carried this out. I would not be surprised if he's leaking intelligence to them by the next episode. I don't think my instinct is we maybe get Callis once more in this set of episodes, but that's only because I've seen the screenshots of who is in the other episodes. And it makes me think that we're going to have some episodes that have to introduce characters in ways that are like Callas isn't going to fucking fit into these episodes

Don't look at the thumbnails if you can help it until we're there Next time Shroud of Darkness The Forgotten Droid And the mystery of chopper bass Oh yeah Yeah I don't know if those are connected

They might have his whole family of him Of choppers out there Yeah it could be We'll find out all right well with that we reached the end of another episode of a more civilized age our show is produced by ricardo contraris and supported by listeners at patreon.com slash civilized until next time please rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice and remember or don't actually you know if if remembering uh la san makes you sad just you don't have to remember it think about instead that planet full of those people that you didn't know about that you didn't kill all good I don't know.