A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 91: The Last Battle, Imperial Supercommandos, and Iron Squadron (Rebels 43 - 45)

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

You know what was great? Those battle droids. The hijinks they got up to. The little gags they'd do. Their super serious boss... Sometimes I miss those guys.   What's that? You'll make me a deal? I can visit them again? But in exchange, I'll have to sit through another episode about precocious children getting up to hijinks (bad version)? Well... You drive a hard bargain, Mr. Filoni, but it's a deal. Support the show by going to Patreon.com/civilized! NEXT TIME: "The Wynkahthu Job," "An Inside Man," and "Visions and Voices" Show Notes Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Ricardo Contreras (@a_cado_appears) Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)    

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zackney, joined by Alia Okumpura, Austin Walker, and Natalie Watson. We are, as always, supported by you are listeners by patreon.com slash civilized. So head over there if you'd like to support the show, get access to our Q&A episodes, and hear what we thought. Here are evolving thoughts about the acolyte. Boy, are they evolving and continue to evolve. I'm so glad we got that episode in the can before our last recap. Because we made some called shots that I think were,

I mean, we made some obvious called shots that were immediately right. And then, like, Rob, you made a particular long-called shot about what the antagonist really wanted and some protagonist positionality that might change in the rest of the show that I think they have now signaled is going to be completely right. So I'm glad we got it in the can. Which I know is like separate from like our critical appraisal. I know that this is like...

That is the part I don't feel has evolved as much. I was like, yeah, second half of the episode left me pretty much exactly where I was. Like episode five did not leave me feeling like, yeah, no, the I would feel differently about the acolyte. Had that all been in episode four. It's like... I would feel better about... I mean, right now I'm thinking this whole show should have been four episodes instead of eight. Yes.

And I would feel better about... Limited series. Limited series. Yes. Natalie, exactly. Limited series Star Wars Just go ahead Go ahead and do it

It's fine Except it's already limited I know What you get? Like if you can't fill An 8, 12 episode run Maybe what they should have done Is a one week event

One accolite episode Drop per night Five episodes Find a better cut up New TV format New TV Well like you know Like a mini series

We'll do that sometimes Right like In the old days The like Conversation right now Is already like you know shows should be 50 episodes a season again or like 40 you know 30 to be like eight is too many we have to have less than eight is I think I think what I'm really saying is it's not that

they need to be less than eight it's that they didn't have they don't have eight episodes of material sure they're two movies of material well yes but that that I don't think is a it like I see where you're coming from with like should have had few episodes you should have as many episodes of the story you have requires I think the fact that you like you don't kick off the series with like we got six episodes with a solid material how we how many we do it more than that more than that yeah like I there might be we might get to the end of this and go like they needed to have four episodes and I don't mean that they needed to combine all of these into four episodes they just need it like you just need to have like you need to have the courage that we're

just burning pot of this we are fuck it you need to have the courage to To just like, not that the show is, I don't want to overdraw the comparison between like 90s, like cop procedurals and everything, but you do need to just be like, you know, let's watch these Jedi just hang out in their workplace and shoot the shit. Like if you just need to fill time and like give interesting like color into the backstory, just like check in on all those like cop Jedi we hang out with. See what's going on with their lives. Give them a one off case. Where's the goth lab lady? This is what I'm saying. Oh my God.

there should have been a got lab lady hey we can't we can't let the word of this get out because the senate's already mad about our comp stats right exactly i can't i can't take i can't take four dead jett i the senate it would be so much better ah well we can draw a line between that our our acolyte feelings about about procedural tv and this because like we are in fucking episode of the week television this week in rebels one of these is a star trek episode you know what I mean? Like, we are in, which I don't mean in a pejorative way. No, but like literally music hits and cuts are like, this is next gen.

Yes. DS9 era Star Trek. Yeah, there was something about the set of episodes where like, and there's stuff to talk about and I liked the majority of it, but they slid off of my mind like water. Like it was so television. That's fucking television, baby. I had to remind myself multiple times which episodes we watched. I would start watching the one

Just to refresh myself Yeah And I'd be like Which one's the next one again? Oh fuck is that one Yeah yeah yeah yeah okay no iron squat Yeah yeah yeah okay yeah The kids the kids it was a kids episode

Let's get into that Yeah so this week Ezra wins the Clone Wars Fenrow loses all his Mandalorians Mandalorians gone All my Mandalorians gone That was just end Dave full of his career On the spot

Well yeah Yes, yeah, we'll get to that. We'll get to how much Rebels continues to just be Mandalorian beta edition, you know? Beta edition is the pre-release edition, not beta in contrast. Both kind of work, though. It's like, yeah, yeah. Ezri is the lowest he's been in a minute. Anyway, continue.

And the ghosts gain Iron Squad. I'm not sure which side of the ledger we're going to place that on when all of a sudden They're an investment. It's like having, it's like having like a G league team or like a minor league team. You know what I mean? You're not going to put them out. You're not going to bring them up to the majors, but you're going to have them. You're going to invest in them long term.

For Allie, it's like NXT. You know what I mean? Like they are, they are in developmental. They're going to, we're going to see if they could become real rebels one day. For now, it's just good to have them signed on contract just in case one of them blows. These kids are going to get taste of the paint once. Here, you ain't about that life. You ain't about that life.

Just be done forever. That's the problem. Yeah, they're going to be getting everybody breakfast, you know? You know how I like my pancakes wrote. And like, it's going to be bad for them. But you need those. All right. So, I guess let's get into the one that the first one here.

The one that's good. Is that what you're going to say? It's got the best one. It's really good. Yeah. I like these generally. but I had a good time with these generally, but this one's good.

Yeah. Well, and it's chainlessly playing on nostalgia, right? Like, this is, like, this is just, like, hitting me and all my feelings about that show, about Rex, what it feels to see, like, they did get to a point where, like, I see a crash drone command ship. That means something.

Yeah. Where I'm like, oh, damn, that's, you know, it's the, oh, stirring the echoes. The ghosts are, you know, coming out. Um, the ghost isn't like the, the haunted, not the, not the ghosts is in our main protagonists, but the ghosts is in the ghosts of the past war. But not the ghost of geonosis. That's two of our episodes from now. That's in the future.

Uh, can't wait for Ezra and Sabine, the whole seance and talk to geonosons. Where are, why did you all die? The. M. Oh. All right. So the gang is looking for more war supplies, and Ezra, Rex, Chopper, and Canaan are dropped off to scour a crashed and ostensibly abandoned separatist command ship slash transport. No sooner they left behind, then they walk into the hangar and they see a big stack of missiles. And they're like, hey, free missiles.

And they walk right into the same trap that got vives. You know, the exact same ratio. No, actually, Five's got Anakin with that one. Fives didn't, Fives triggered the race shielding trap. But doesn't he the one in it in the end? I think he's outside it. I think it's, I think Anakin and Rex were trapped inside it. And he's like, you got to listen to me.

And they're like, hey, dude. Might be right. Yeah, I'm pulling it off. And that's why they can't protect him when the red dude show up. You're right. And just gun him down. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is, in fact, Anakin and Rex inside.

of the Ray Shields. So Rex, falling for it again. Getting caught in the Ray Shield, getting surrounded this time by battle droids. Rough day for Rex. There's a twist. The battle droids take them prisoner, and there's a super tactical droid there, who basically has spent 15 years stewing over the fact that they should have gotten a ring, basically. we should have that we had a full seven game series yeah uh-huh well it's not just any

tactical droid this is coli is it our guy is there is it the guy this is it the onderon this is the onderon one who you'll recall like that the markings looked yeah it's it's specifically him it's the one that if you remember the the the battle on onderon stuff the the saw guerrera like trio the saw and sala sala sarah that sounds right um uh the the Duku eventually, like, there's a puppet king, basically, who's taken over, but who is bad at this. And so Duku deploys this, what do you call it, this super battle droid, Kalani, to go, like, take over and be more brutal. And he, like, shows up and has his, like, cool, whatever the droids are, they were always hanging around with Grievous, the ones where, like, the battle sticks, you know, the electrostics. And he does, he basically takes over on Dron for that period.

Though here he makes it seem like he also did a bunch of other shit, right? There's a real extrapolation out where he like at one point talks about having gone up against the clones 138 times or something, which is one of these great reminders of like, oh yeah, the Clone Wars were long. What do they say? I mean he says he studied 188 engagements though. Oh, maybe that's right. So I don't think he played 130 regular season games. Okay. I think it's more like he was grinding a lot of tape.

That makes sense. That makes more sense. and what he's got here is basically he wants to have a little private tournament and he's like look I think the separatist army should have won but let's put it to the test uh you know next uh next shot wins this is the most star trek thing we've seen in in a star war show so far this sort of like uh a warlord from the previous war decides to make everyone play his little game so that he can prove that he would have won, if not for those meddling whatever, Borg, who knows? This is the most, like, and again, like, it's the most television

thing that we've gotten, I think, so far in the, like, in a fun way. Like, I like this setup. It's a little goofy, but because we come in with the Clone Wars build, it has legs, right? Like, the idea that you have these two protagonists or these two main characters in this, in this arc, or in this episode, it's not an art, I kind of wish it was, uh, in this, in this episode who are both like, they've sublimated the fact that both of them, that the war didn't end the way a war ends. Neither of them got the resolution of my side won and your side lost or even my side lost

in your side one. They both got screwed because it wasn't a real war. and getting to like work through that bad feeling by like playing the game of war against each other is just like absolutely love it high premise good premise let's let's see how it all plays out for them and then we have the fun like combine the toy sets oh the empire shows up and it's like gang we got to join forces and so now like like all the the whole all the all the characters from the previous cartoon, need to go fight these guys from the movies. Pablo literally says that in the Rebels Recon for this, Rob.

It was like, when I saw the, he's like, when I saw the battle droids square off against the Stormtroopers, it felt like the most, you're mixing your two toy sets together moment we've ever had on this show, which is true, but like, I think that the episode is also not just a toy set episode, which I think is contrasted with maybe even another episode in this set. So, you know, happy about it. So yeah, let's, let's get into it. Um, you know, what, how did you all feel seeing Rex sort of getting increasingly tense on the walk to the command ship, uh, just the, the real humorlessness we haven't seen from him before where like the paternal, uh, like, mentor character he's been playing just drops away and he's getting increasingly tense and testy. Uh, how, how, how, how do that land for folks?

Yeah, I definitely kind of read. Rex starting to slip into old habits as kind of, I was anticipating us sort of losing Rex to the past. And I think it does deliver on that in an interesting way. Like I think to the point where Rex is. kind of repeating the same strategies. Like, it's almost as if they both, like, both the tactical droid and Rex are like falling into formation.

And what's interesting is that Ezra is this kind of like outside source that can challenge that. And by challenging it actually ends up, you know, changing the, the outer. come, it's like the saying where, you know, um, uh, like doing, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different is, you know, uh, uh, the definition of insanity. The AA definitions. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Um, which in some ways, I feel like breaking out of the, the sort of, it was fun to revisit, um, the formula of the clone. Wars and almost have it presented to us in a more direct way of like seeing the way that Rex so explicitly depended on specific formations like and specifically was relying on Ezra to perform his role as he was used to from the Clone Wars was really fascinating because I don't think I mean we've talked about kind of abstractly clone and Jedi formations when we've talked about the quarterback and the like the offensive line comparison and stuff exactly but I think seeing it almost stripped down to these sort of bare components in this was really fun to watch

I was kind of expecting it to be a little bit of a darker episode for Rex I feel like there's some some sort of PTSD sort of flashbacky type stuff. Yeah, they sort of allude to him at one point he calls

um uh, Canaan Cody I believe um and so there's like these moments that feel like oh are we going to be examining

as well when a lot of the comparisons that are drawn between the droids programming and the clones programming, I kind of expected it to head in a darker place, but it sort of resolves itself and stays in a more playful tone towards the end of it. I would have liked to engage a little bit more with what it means that that Rex is like, you know, talking about his programming, like any time a clone is like talking towards their programming or things like that, I'm like, let's dig into, let's talk about it, let's dig into it.

But I think the fact that it's at least kind of in the conversation is enough for me in this episode. That's a real, like, I recently saw someone mention the first. fact that we haven't really talked about this too too much. We brought it up once or twice. But the thing you just identified, the PTSD as a focal point that is loosely gestured at that you and I would recognize, but that like those words weren't said. No one even said there were a trauma or baggage. Like, Rex is a lot of baggage he's working through. Like, there's lots of ways you could talk about it in fiction that doesn't use those exact words.

But the thing that people have, the thing that I'm gesturing at is that they, I saw someone saying you know, Rebels is a show, Rebels and Clone Wars don't have the same TV rating, right? Clone Wars was TBPG, parental guidance suggested or whatever, right? Rebels is Y7, right? That's a show for seven-year-olds to watch without parental guidance, without the ability to turn and ask their parents something, right? Which is like what parental guidance theoretically suggests, right? The way that you get your stuff out on TBBG is you go, yeah, there might be some more

complicated things here. There might be more violence or there might be more complex situations, but we're suggesting that, you know, parents sit with their kids and be able to be a resource to answer those questions. And because of that, which obviously that isn't what happens mostly. Mostly kids just watch the cartoon. But you have that rating and therefore you can put in conversations about trauma, right? But I also think this is another instance where the single episode format limits where the camera can go and what and how much time we get to spend with characters, even if this was just a two-parter, we could have really had one episode about Rex's trauma and Rex's history with fighting the wars and being stuck in place, and then one

episode about fighting the empire when they show up to ruin the day. And instead, we got to do all of that in a single episode, which is really limiting, you know, though I think to support the original point about Rex being caught in formations and stuff. I think one of the strong points of the episode is that stuff being mirrored, not just with Rex, but with Kalani down to Kalani being like, oh, yes, the Jedi rescue. Like, yeah, we know you have a clone trooper, you have a Jedi, you have a Jedi's Padawan, like literally scripting back to Clone War episode structure and saying, yes, that is true in the world.

That is a type of, you know, engagement we've run a bunch of time. which is fascinating and again I just wish I had a little more time to breathe yeah I think even with the time some of the like tonal stuff is weird though like I think like they had a hard time deciding whether some of the stuff was played for laughs or it was supposed to be sympathetic with Rex like the way that he um I think he he like Canaan's rank in his head keeps shifting throughout the episode. And I was like, that's kind of like, what are we calling attention to?

Is this like further delusion or am I laughing at this? Like, what's the end game here? Yeah, I feel like Rex is taken very seriously by the show in most presentations. I think some of the early shots of the like close-ups on Rex's eyes is he's kind of going somewhere else. Like it feels like his mind is kind of wandering to the past or to past experience.

And I feel like Rex kind of in this episode is, is despite being in sort of a playful context, is kind of grappling with something a little bit more serious with himself. And that's what kind of feels like. the allusions to things like PTSD or trauma even though it's not explicitly saying that but the I found

the close up shots on Rex's eyes to be very striking because I don't think that's a shot we have gotten before if at all like I can't think of another shot like that so far in Rebels it just felt

um felt pretty intense in the moment You know that specifically the one where he thinks he's talking to Cody? Mm-hmm. As he's waking up, right? As he's... Where he comes out of these, like, kind of in a frenzy. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The only thing I can think of that's similar is some of the Asoka Vader stuff throughout season two early on when she's reacting to his presence in space and then the very final stuff there, which is similar in some ways, though the gap is, it's a different, it's a personal trauma and a personal relationship falling apart. This is like a long-term, you know, medical problem, right, that he's dealing with that comes from years and years of doing violence on behalf of a thing that has turned into a thing that's

hunting you, right? Yeah. And seeing a lot of your friends die over and over again. And, like, something, I think, kind of works on a metal level is, like, there's a bit here where you become keenly aware that Rex is a character of mental. another show. And I don't just mean like literally, to your point, like a show with a different texture, a different vibe entirely. And like he's been putting on, he's got a snowy white beard. And he's been like the mentor character and, you know, helping, you know, helping the young

Avengers get to, you know, get to grips with all this. But there's a moment later where at a key moment in the fight, he sends Ezra off on mission, some Drudeca has come out. Uh, to sort of head them off. And Ezra's got a good plan to go to go handle it. But he gets delayed. He ends up getting sidetracked by Chopper, who has to tell me found a way off the planet, the planet. But Ezra's late getting the, getting the job done. The overwhelming fire eventually causes like, Rex freaks out a little bit and like breaks

cover. He gets hit. It all works out. And Ezra's starting to be like, hey, like that went pretty well. I'm pretty good at this, like, clone war stuff, basically. And Rex loses his shit, like, disproportionately, where it is a, you know, he says, like, no, you weren't good at it. You were, you, the whole plan dependent on timing. You need to be disciplined.

Like, basically, you know, you need to focus and take this seriously. And I think to an extent, like, what works in that moment a little bit, too, is, like, the show Rex is from. Like, death was commonplace in that show. Like, it is, it's, it's a fun, like, this is a show that the, the ghosts have not been too heavily blooded, uh, today. Like, this is not a show where, oh my God, like, uh, you know, one of the major characters is dead. Like, there's, like, there's going to be a gap now in the cast, remember of the ensemble. It's not that kind of show, or at least it isn't, isn't close to that show right now. But Rex is from a show where like, you know, eventually the series and, you know, comments on it.

Right. That, hey, used to know a lot of clones' names, right? Where are they all? Right. Like, we got rookies in season one, and by the end of season six, heavy echo five's, droid bait cut up, dead. Fives is the last one. And right, that's it.

And that's the other part of it is like, it's not just, it's not just the casualties. It's that, like, your family is being destroyed around you. Right. And Rex, you know, Rex now is, like, fighting with a different group of people. But, like, literally, again, he's from a different show and kind of a different world. He's not fighting with his family. He's trying to, like, recreate one, play a different role, but, like, it's different. And I think that kind of makes the moment where he doesn't know what to call Canaan really affecting in a weird way.

Because it's like, it kind of, it's a small detail that also highlights the degree to which he doesn't know how to relate to this crew or, like, figure out where he sits in relation to them or vice versa. He had an entire, like, programming, as he put it, a context. And now he doesn't have that. And this show kind of just like dredges all that up in a way that's really fun. I got Pobloid on this episode because I noticed something early on that I was like, ooh, are they doing this thing? And then in the Rebels Recom, Pablo was like, no, we weren't doing that thing. Early on in the beginning of this episode, I noticed that Ezra says, we got a Clone Wars veteran with us.

And I was like, wait, but Yoda said the clone begun the Clone War has. And people in the setting feel like they mostly say the clone war. But Ezra says the clone wars, which is, of course, the name of the television show, right? And Rex soon after says clone war. And I was like, for Rex, it was the clone war. I fought in the Clone War. And for Ezra, who grew up after it, oh, yeah, the Clone Wars happened, right? That's what that was happened right before I was born.

No, Pablo says this is personal preference. And you can say whatever you want. You could call it either. There's no meaning. difference. But I'm going to hold on to hope that the writer was doing something. And as the ice flow drifted off, the monster was heard to say, you can call me Frankenstein or the monster. Either's good with me. It's fine. There's no meaning here to be made. But I think that that is actually like, for me, that was a really fun, immediate difference.

It was hearing Ezra say clone wars was like, oh, is that like, that's not what they say in the world it was the clone war and but apparently it is so i i you know sorry pablo but you're killing me with the shit i uh i also like that the way you know i have to get caught and yes like rex has that moment now where he fully kind of gets unstuck in time uh to to to borrow from vonnegut uh he he thinks he thinks cody is there again which also the what happened to cody man like what happened to your boy? Where is Cody? Where's Cody?

We'll find out. How bad is this memory? We get Cody stuff. I believe you eventually. In rebels? No, no, no. I think in season seven or in bad batch, right? Gotcha.

I'm pretty sure. Fingers crossed. But something I do like is that sometimes in shows like this, especially, there's been a shift. Like, I've seen a lot of, like, very special episodes of TV where character, like, starts to have a bit of a, like, a mental breakdown or, like, as a trauma they are dealing with. And the answer, in those shows, like, to show you're dealing with it responsibly, it's like, we got to fucking solve that thing.

Like, hey, let's get in there and be like, hey, man, what's up with this, like, emotional problem you seem to be having? Let's talk it out, hug it out. And then put that in the box and, like, just tie it up and, like, we're done with it now. We're good. And I do like to hear, Canaan basically is like, he knows exactly what's going with Rex. And at no point is he like trying to intervene with Rex.

He's just like, we just got to let this cook. You just tell, the thing he tells Ezra is like, hey, you can't, this sucks, but you can't, you can't read into this isn't about you. Like this is just Rex dealing with some stuff right now. You are not the main character this week, my man. Like you just can't. This is not, yeah, Rex is not orbiting. Of course, he does. He is the main character because he solves it for everybody in the end.

Don't worry about it. But. Yeah. I'm the first person who's thought about the. God, God damn it. Who won the Clone Wars? So, yeah, that line, eventually they fight there,

they do the little game, they fight their way through, they, Ezra finds that there's some shuttles here, which is good news. But eventually they get to the, the kind of like, not the bridge, right, but like the command center of this facility. And Kalani is there. And by the way, they took Zeb hostage.

Zeb has this great line earlier. He's like, I'm not going to play your game. And Kalani's like, you're right, you won't. The LaSat weren't in the Clone Wars. Like, you don't, you get to be the hostages that the Jedi are trying to ask you. Yeah. It's so funny. It's so funny.

And they get up there and it seems like it's going to be a draw or like it's going to, you know, come to a final brutal fight or whatever. And obviously the empire is going to show up and put these two sides on the same team. But it's while there that Ezra says, I never really thought about it. I never asked. This is like, who won the Clone Wars? I never asked. I know the Jedi were wiped out. The clones were decommissioned, and the droid army was just shut down.

The Clone War ended, but why? If none of you won, who did? And then Zab was like, uh, the empire? And that's because the empire has shown up, right? And it's very funny to finally have a character. Like, we don't get this ever. Anybody's stepping back and being like, hey, what just happened? Why did the war end?

I don't understand. weren't the separatists on Corrassant last week? How did the Republic win? And now the Republic's the Empire? No one in the universe, we don't like it to hear people talk about that over coffee, which is like all any of us would be talking about. You know, if, if tomorrow, right, if Biden says, well, thanks for this new, thanks to this new Supreme Court ruling, I've decided I can't be held accountable for any crime I

commit, I'm King Biden now. we would be tweeting about it all the time. Like, that's all we would talk about for, like, five years, those of us who survive. And the, the, that just doesn't happen in Star Wars. No one, no one says, I'm confused about what just happened, even though it's confusing because what really happened was a little gremlin puppeteer, like smashed together his real life human action figures until he decided he was done playing and then killed half of them, right?

like so this is the first time we have a character say it it's frustrating that it's Ezra the outside but like it's going to be Ezra it's going to be the outside observer it's going to be the young hero who is the star of babes a hundred percent how could nobody be thinking critically about the world that they live in like that it's fresh or the or the experiences that they live through I feel like I'll make the excuse I guess for Rex right and Canaan they both they are both suffering under having lost people in that war and being really close to it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But Zeb wasn't explicitly. And I don't even feel like you could make the excuse for Canaan because like wouldn't Canaan be going through life in like some sort of political way? He'd be

talking to other people who lived in these places and experienced these things. Like he was hiding that he was a Jedi for a reason. I think that that the thing for me is like the way I can excuse canaan is he was just not dealing with any of it right um another thing that comes up in the rebels recon which again is like tells me we have to read those canaan comics is someone explains like it was really rough for canaan he got betrayed by his crew bad like it went the the the he lived through his clone troopers turning on him he remembers what that was like it was really like traumatic for him and so he like boxes up the jedi part of himself and puts it away and just doesn't think about the Clone Wars anymore as much as he can until the show

starts, right? And so I can excuse that a little bit, but like, that's been three seasons of the show. My man, you got to start thinking about this stuff at some point. You're training a kid now. Asra hasn't asked you any questions about what happened at the end of the Clone Wars that you could have been like, huh, what did happen at the end of the Clone Wars? Yeah, I'll guess I'll guess i'll guess i'll give them this though is that like because we see the whole story like the like the uncertainty of it that we see the work but the story actually follow like even if you don't like the empire the story follows very simply of we were fighting a terrible civil war and you know like you know basically installed a militarist government and at the head of the

public and then they won and then they just didn't ever relinquish power like they did win then they won part that's very strange because the way they won was on tuesday the emperor was kidnapped and on the separatist spaceship the jedi saved him two days later he had all the jedi killed because they were traitors and then that same day all of the separatist leaders happened to die and Mustafa. And it's just like, oh, and that was it. And then they hit the button that said, turn off all the droids, which is a thing that existed.

And it's like, if you lived in that world, you'd be like, well, who built the turn off all the droids? I would be, I would be, I would be, I would be, I would be, I would be, I would have to be, I would be yelling, they would arrest me. They would arrest me. They would, I would literally, they would come for me. Because I would be like, why is no one paying attention to this? I would have, I would be doing streams.

I'd be doing live streams with like a wipe of a court board behind me. But in these hard times of uncertainty with the rise of the empire, it's more important than ever to take care of your mental health. That's right. And that's why I use the Better Mind app. The Better Mind app. You know, available on a data pad near you. You can talk to tons of therapists. Your confidentiality is mostly guaranteed.

English, huddies. We support all sorts of languages. is. Okay. I was just like, I was about to make excuses for the Star Wars universe and be like they don't have think pieces, they don't have podcasters. But Ezra's parents were literally podcasters. They were literally podcasters.

Well, they died. They got arrested. I'm just saying that the word is out there. I'm just, I'm telling you, the Organa report's going to come out and it's going to clear up everything. I can't. Now I do need to find it. It's, I think it is a piece over on blog Tarkin.

But it is basically, like hypothesizing that like the republic is basically like an immature and like deeply pre-modern polity where there is like at the like cosmopolitan core of the galaxy people feel no connection to politics whatsoever out out in the colonies and other planets they do have politics they do have like political relationships but they are completely like uh subject peoples, basically, to the imperial core. But the argument fundamentally is there's just constant evidence that, like, the world of Star Wars, nobody, nobody gives us.

I mean, that's, feel any connection to, like, the Andor vision, right, of, of looking at Mon Mothema's whole social crew, right? It's like, let's not talk about politics today. You know, like, let's just drink and let's just hang out. You're on Corrassant. You are not here to talk, or again, theoretically, in that imperial core, at totally support that vision, I think. Well, remember how fives, like, when he's, when he's, like, running around Corson.

Yeah. It doesn't feel like there's a war on. It's become, like, authoritarian. But, like, when he meets that cab driver and everything, just the vibe is, like, the war is distant. It is not, like, and we just don't care. Like, just nobody cares. What would that be like, I wonder?

Pardon? So what would living in a place where that be like, I wonder? Who could say? Yeah, it's, but it. It is, it is a, it is such a funny thing to have Ezra, like, make this connection. And then also, everyone's like, but he can't make it all, right? Because he still doesn't have our perspective. He's like, maybe the emperor was bad all along.

Like, he can't get there because he can't. He doesn't know everything. But I do think if, if Colony had stuck around and compared notes with Rex at the end of this, they could have gotten close, you know. Colani probably remembers all sorts of shit about where Duky was like positioning troops and stuff. They should have talked. Let him talk to each other. Well, this, okay, so this is the thing.

So when the Empire shows up, and they're like, Kallani, can you, like, maybe help us out? And we get to, this is the most real-time strategy game mission-ass thing I've ever seen, where it's like the factions are balanced to fight against each other a certain way. Yeah. But for this one mission,

you get access to both armies. And Kalani's like, so my guys shoot really fast, but really badly. But you Jedi redirect shots really accurately. You have hero units. Yeah. It's also just like video, it's like MMO raid design. It's like, all right, put all your tanks here and target AOEs on the tanks and they'll use a bubble. They use like a special item to redirect the AOE into a single target attack. It's very funny. But also it has the equivalent of the, whatever the animation equivalent of like shot on a back lot in Vancouver feels like because like, well, looks like we're defending another hanger from the, from the empire.

looks this show has this show has been like defend the garage more than any show i've ever fucking seen like loading loading base for them are like cemetery ridge at gettysburg it's just like this and this garage door opener right here a lot of good men died at this position it's important garages are important it's where you keep your stuff your stuff apparently at a rondack chairs Fishing gear, bombs. Bombs. Yeah. Which, of course, they use the bombs to fight the ATATs here.

And that's what they do is they redirect battle droid laser fire, blaster fire, into the, the idea that the battle droids couldn't shoot one of these giant ass bombs, these missiles that are rolled under the legs. Y'all got to get better droids. I love the battle droids. I'm happy to have them back. We got some great battle droid gags this episode. They were so cute. So good to hear Roger, Roger. Very weird to hear Esther say, who's Roger?

Don't remind me that the name Roger is real. But they need to be able to shoot these big-ass cylinders that you're rolling around. They can't hit, like, targets that are barely moving. No wonder the war didn't go well for you, you know? It's not their fault. They were tired. I guess you're right. They have been waiting for so long.

They're a little rusty. Ezra does point that out, right? Yeah. When Rex is like, we won. Ezra was like, but we would have lost if these droids worked right. I thought that whole bit was him doing like a reverse psychology thing. Like, and then he was going to like wink at Rex and be like, yeah, we lost. And then the guy was going to like, the super tactical droid was going to be so happy that they like, I don't know.

That was such a weird. He meant it though. He did mean it. But his tone was just so hard to, I just read it as like. Yeah. kind of, uh, like facetious in the moment and then it just was genuine, I guess. I was just like, what? We've gotten, we've moved past dark Ezra, like emo, emo phase, Ezra is gone and now we're

at super earnest new sincerity Ezra and I can't see a punk Ezra. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, uh, yeah, like, I do think it is kind of funny that the, the tactical droid is like, no, like, that couldn't happen.

That couldn't have happened in the war. The droid, nobody can beat the droiddeca. Droidca is strongest. Nobody, I put, no way a punk can take out droid geos. This is bullshit. It's so funny you say this because next, the next rebel recon, which has, of course, a question about this one. Someone wrote in and was like, Rex got shot by one of the droids.

That killed clones. Why did, how did Rex survive? And Pablo was like, well, as it says, the droids are, are all broken down and their equipment wasn't very good. If their equipment had been good, maybe Rex would have died when he got shot, but he didn't. So there. Doesn't Andrew get shot too, though? He's not wearing armor.

You know, bad armor. I don't know. Or bad blasters. I don't know. It doesn't matter. TVY7, you know. I was kind of hoping that at the end of this, they'd be like, hey, battle droid. You want to help us like, you want to help, like, install the offense at Team Ghost?

I wanted him to come on board so bad. even though we know he's done some dirt. If Callis is going to come on board eventually, we can't bring Kalani on. Yeah. Operation paperclip is good when some real ones come along. When it's our cool battle droid friend.

Really the thing is what we would have gotten is regular battle droids to come hang out with the crew. And that would have been, there should be one battle droid on the ghost at all times. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Wouldn't that be fun? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh, we do get some, I mean, we should wrap up this episode because we're moving pretty quick, but like, they beat the empires. They open up the door for an escape, right? They get in their shuttles. They steal a shuttle. They get out. There's a joke about how we're going to have to repaint the shuttle because it's boring looking. I like the shuttle design generally. It's kind of a unique look. I don't remember this. Um, but they escape. And there's not too much more to the, the thing, except for again that Ezra. Ezra won the Clone Wars for every. everybody. A galaxy of senators couldn't do that. An army of Jedi, clones, and droids couldn't find the middle ground. But you did. This is what Rex says. Rex, all I did was pointed that none of you were meant to win it. You couldn't. And we needed to hear it. And then Kalani's like, uh, I got to go because I've run the numbers. Based on what just happened out there, y'all got less than 1% of a chance to win against the empire. So I'm going to disappear. And the thing I was leading to is Gilroy says, what he suspects Kalani goes on to do is be an advisor to the huts and like go be like a lead a mercenary outfit because like that's the one place in the galaxy that he could like disappear to but he also says that after the battle of Yaffin after the first death star is destroyed he can imagine Kalani be like maybe the rebels could win and then throwing in with them so I don't know I don't know my suspicion based on that is we will not get more Kalani in rebels otherwise

I think he would have said, we'll have to wait and see what's up with him later, you know. Before we move on, how do we feel about Kane and saying, hey, D-Squad? Oh, that, that was, I think that was not Pog for me, because that's not D-Squod to me. Okay, but what if I told you that the writer of this episode, I think it was the writer, is the writer of D-Squot? Worse. The whole arc? Uh, you know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me double check. Maybe it was just the, maybe it was the director and not the writer. Or maybe it was, maybe I'm right. See, Brent Friedman, uh, sunny day in the void. Uh-huh. Look. The D-Squodark, yeah, the whole arc, the whole arc, the whole arc. It has, it has the virtue of being the only arc in the Clone Wars.

Uh-huh. That I think would make a really interesting off-off, Broadway play. Okay. It's the one I think you could do it with. All right. It would require some, like, willingness to roll with it from the audience. Uh-huh. These are droids.

A bunch of actors and lead artists and some, like, shit, like, wires coming off of them. Yeah. Yeah. I get you. I get you. What I want is the, um, the, what's the kid's name from Rushmore? What's the main character's name that Jason Swartman plays? There's once a time when I knew this.

Max something, is that right? Yes. Max Fisher. Max Fisher. I want the Max Fisher Umbara Ark stage play. That's what I want.

Lots of, lots of Vietnam protest. Yeah. Uh-huh. He's making the end. This is what I'm referenced. Yeah. Yeah.

That was great. More Rushmore references on podcasts, please. So the people are clamoring for. Anyway. It's fine. It's a good episode. I'm happy to see droids. I love a battle droid.

I miss them. TV. Yeah. TV. Oh, the one last thing I want to say is that it's funny that the touchstone that you all had was Star Trek when I was like, this is a crazy Sawtrap. That's very funny. Saw is kind of Star Trek for, like, death sickos, so.

Okay. in the sense of like both of them this is this is real me trying to find the point I'm trying to make and see if it's true as I talk which is the thing I hate when podcasters do but I'm doing it both of them are interested in like difficult puzzle situations where people try to logic their way out and then of course half the time the realization is there is no way to logic your way out you failed this game simply by stepping in the box right or by some great sin you had coming into this place or the only way to win is to not play the game directly, right? There's lots of saw traps in Star Trek, you know, like famously, there's lots of, like, how are we, how do these two people who hate each other, you know, and are secretly, you know, tied to each other through some revenge plot, how do they get out of this bad situation? Or, or literally, here's a test put together to, like, buy some either governmental or alien power to, like, push you to the brink of your own madness, but like, can you overcome

that. And also there's like lots of torture. There's lots of torture in Star Trek actually. So. Is there? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of famous. Some of the most famous things are torture adjacent. So. Hmm. Dark track is kind of good.

Interesting. Mm-hmm. One day. One day. I'll make y'all watch some Star Trek. Different vibes, but. Though not always. Not always. Like very, again, various parts of this week, this week's run of episodes are very Star Trek coded.

the next one included I think too yeah yeah uh so straightforward from here we get some stakes for sabine and then main character energy baby it's on uh let's let's see how it works out so sabine's been hanging out with fenrow uh remember he's sort of the ray finds uh offrand Re finds they kidnapped from the planet full of like the Protector of Concord Dawn He's basically He's basically a fines brother

That they've got Being held prisoner And he's having arguments As they play as they play Mandalorian chess You know it's good in Marshall Because it's like chess But it's all like swords and daggers

Blade to Cube 4 Is that a reference to The Cube? This is actually The Writer of the Cube episode as well. It might be. Oh my God. That's very funny.

I don't remember. But they're having conversations, and he's like basically needling her about you're growing, you're growing soft among these rebels. You should return to true Mandalorian ways. And she's like, I think you should join the rebellion. Well, this is all going to come to a head because Concord Dawn has gone dark. They go to investigate the planet. all those Mandalorians that were there before dead Fenrao immediately concludes

this all happened because he threw in with the rebellion and he wasn't here to save his men when another Mandalorian clan showed up right on cue a bunch of stormtroopers fly in led by a Mandalorian and we learn that kind of it was other Mandalians it was also like mostly the empire it's how this fits in a fan look i don't think they sort of fumble the ball on this yeah i don't all right well anyway well we'll get into the nitty gritty of this and fend's whole arc throughout

all this point being uh the leader of this imperial mandolian group eventually confronts uh sabine and is like you should you should be with us because you're a visla and uh you know She explains this is, you know, exactly why she isn't, you know, with them and their and their sort of Mandalorian Quisling government. And then they escape. Ben Rao leaves Ezra and Sabine for dead. They are forced to fly away on her jetpack. It's kind of a fun sequence, really, you know. Do you like the Rocketeer?

I like the Rocketeer. Do you like the set pieces in respawn action games like Jedi Survivor? Here it is. And then, you know, as Sabine and Ezra work together to rec house on these off-brand Mandalions, eventually they get cornered. And Fenrow returns, rides to the rescue. And when all of a sudden done, having no place else to go, he's kind of thrown in now with the rebels. I can't believe, I can't believe we've got a Sabine. Ren episode about

Sabine Ren's history in which Sabine Ren still doesn't say fucking shit about her fucking past dude. What are you mean? What is going on here? What is going on?

How I took a list. I made a list. I made a list. I also made a list. Did you? Oh my God. What's happening? Okay. I want to hear everyone's list list, please. What's your list, Allie? My list is six things. I said writing down everything we actually learned about the Mandalorian slash the beach. Okay, I also have that by 10 things, so I may have been more generous than you.

Okay, so I wrote down, quote, the protectors are loyal to the throne. And then I said, Clan Visla, we knew that, but I don't know that we know what happened to Clan Vizla. We don't know what happened. Well, we don't really know what happened at the end of the Clone War stuff, but not since that. Right, yeah. And then I wrote Gar-Saxston is the Imperial. your real voice wrote of Mandelor. We've met him before.

I'm here to tell you. And then I wrote, that guy has no honor. And then your mother's looking for you. Her own mother stands with me in the empire now. And then her mother could be forced into this position. Shame and the family, question mark.

And the last one is a loyalist question mark? Because that's sure a word that somebody says with no context. Here are my things, a list of things we learn about Sabine. one bad at space chess two she wants to rescue ezra immediately instead of retreating and coming in fresh three her thoughts about mandolarian infighting quote it's complicated four ezra isn't a pawn five doesn't care about revenge just her friends six has apparently wanted a jet pack gets a jet pack loses a jet pack seven learns how to use strategy And then in parentheses, it takes longer. Eight, has a mother? Mother is looking for her.

Mother is imperial. Why does these all sound like memes? Nine, evil cousins. Ten, willing to die for her people, even though they aren't Mandalorian. This is very Mandalorian of her, apparently. So that's... And how many of those are Sabine talking about herself? Oh, sometimes it's her doing something like bad at Space Chess or Rao saying something is true.

She does not, you know, I am not a musical person, right? But musicals famously have types of songs that are like very common among them. And so like there's like the I want song your protagonist has normally where you're like, I just want to be in the world and meet new people. And then often you'll have characters, side characters who are like I am songs where they do like, I'm mean and I'm evil and I'm... Master of the house.

Right, 100%. Right. She doesn't get either, ever. It's unbelievable. And that's not the only way to do character work. It's not the only way to do exposition. No, I'm not saying that she has to like look at the camera and tell us her life history.

But the fact that every single time somebody like passes her the ball to use sports metaphors, which we often do, on this podcast. Passes her the ball. The layup is right there.

The layup is happening. She can do it. She's locked out. She's like, who else can I pass the ball to? I don't need this. She walked out of the fucking court. She's off the, she's in the stands. Ooh, y'all got this.

She's getting popcorn. I, it's, it's just, it's actually annoying. It's honestly annoying. The way that, the way, the whole, the whole, the whole, mom back and forth where he's telling her, like, I know your mom. Your mom is so disappointed. Your family's been shamed. She's like, my mom would never do that.

The end, period. New conversation now. Like, it's just, it's just, I'm making peace with it. I'm making peace. I'm not going to be haunted by this any longer. I'm making peace and I won't be annoyed by this anymore. This, she's just like, she's, she's, uh, I don't know. I, I give up. I don't know. I have another, I have another solution for like, this is how you fix Sabine's role in the show. Please.

You give her a smoking habit. And then when other characters are dealing something, it would be resonant with Sabine, they can always just like wander into like the hold and she's having a smoke break. And then it'd be like, I'd end to burn one. And Sabine can hand him a dime a yeah and they talk about a thing like for instance when when hera is like dealing with feelings about Ryloth and her relationship with her dad and all that but like the absence of her mom you could have had a moment where it's like well lots of ways to lose a mom and now you got now you have a now you have a character moment yeah yeah and now you get into and it wouldn't just be like there's a mom in the picture now like it always feels like yet another thing

that they're just like uh this is right this is other conflict, deeply relevant to you, Sabine? Boop. Your mom wouldn't be very happy that you're with the rebellion. You should be running Mandelor. It's not like there weren't opportunities in this episode for her to talk about what she, you know, how she feels about any of this stuff. Like, people keep tossing her the ball, you know, like there's big conversations with Fenrow and her about what it means to be a Mandalorian.

This new guy, or not again, he's not a new guy. He's from the son of Dathamere Comics. He's the guy who used to wear the Darthamal armor in the son of Dathamere. comics, that's Garza Saxon. I don't know if you remember that goofy ass armor. You'll look him up. But, but he's, you know, debating her about this stuff. But her position is never like, her position is always, I have to help my friends now. That's what's important to me. Nothing else. She changes the subject constantly off, off the, any topic of discussion that's, like, even in every single conversation about

what it means to be a Mandalorian. Her pass is a Mandalorian. Something, like, what's going on with it? Like, Ezra says multiple times, like, I really don't get what's going on with the Mandalorians. Could you call me in on this Mandalorian stuff, Sabine? No. And I, nope, I got to go.

We need to go back to Hara and deliver this message. Like, it's almost comical the way that she just avoids talking about herself at any fucking cost. It is so wild to me. So I've decided just to let Sabine B. If she doesn't want to talk about it, that's fine. I'm not going to ask her about it anymore, though. So that's fine.

And this is like that moment when you realize someone who you thought was going to be like a real tight friend. it's just like going to be someone who you see a party. You have to put them on a different shelf. Yep. Sometimes you have friends on shelves and you have the shelf that is I can come over and we can chill on your couch and we cannot speak to each other for like two hours and it's normal and it's cool and you have the friend that's like we do dinners. We love dinners.

We love going to dinners. We do dinners. And then you have the friend that's like, I will not speak to you for six months. at a time, but when I see you, it's like nothing, you know, time has passed. Yeah, it's in so many different shelves. Or there's a friend who, you know, you could never call them for a ride anywhere. They will not be available. They will not be available.

They will be somewhere else, doing something else, no matter what. And sometimes you just have to place friends on shelves and you make your peace with the expectations that you have in that friendship. and it's all love, as long as you maintain those expectations. My problem, this is a me thing. I have not been maintaining my expectations of my friendship with Sabine Wren. And that is on me. So I'm making my peace now.

She's on the shelf. She's going to sit on that shelf. And I'm not going to get mad about it anymore. And that's peace. That's peace to me. So thanks for my peace. I'm so glad you reached out. I'm actually a capacity.

I have literally Sabine text me I'm at capacity I'm at capacity bitch I've been asking you questions for years I've been asking you how are you

like how have you been I'm worried about you she is not texting me back she does not she does not tell me anything about what's going on and I'm done so I'm at capacity for you bitch

it's not happening sorry all love though I'll love all love it is love you want to get lunch we're getting lunch Natalie has never been more from Los Angeles, California, than in this world. It's only a different Natalie. I was like, who the fuck is this? What are these relationship categories?

Oh. Oh, I know those. I know what they are, too. But, like, the fact that you carefully maintain this little, like, grove of different, like, species of friendship and, like, place them on show. where they get different amounts of light and water. Variants. So basically, though, Sabine is an air plant, maybe.

Sure. I think there's also a bit of... Because she won't ever grow. Is that what you're saying? No, she's a character you could rely on to say things like, ooh, that's probably a magno mine. And that character will actually speak about her thoughts and feelings. Um, different chills.

Yeah. Does this episode even count as like her texting you up out of the blue being like, Hey, can we talk? Some crazy shit came up with my mom this week. I don't know if it does. Like it feels much more. She didn't bring it up. Fenrault texted you.

Right. This is Fenrault texting you and be like, hey, have you talked to Sabine lately? Yes. And then you mess her Sabine and she's like, I'm good. What's up with you? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

round me while I was like, there's some wild shit going on with Sabine. But she seems, she, it doesn't even seem like she's squashing shit. Like it doesn't see, she, it just, everything washes over her like a wave and we just don't, it doesn't even feel like she's avoiding stuff. It just feels like we aren't, nothing is catching. Like nothing gets to, to sit and stay for a second to engage with. It's like if you had like Velcro and you're trying to attach it and it just won't attach. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like the old ass Velcro. I'm doing it. Why is it not sticking? Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

So I'm at peace. So. This makes sense because like this is this and this is this is sad. Like this isn't the episode I want to have. I don't want to be here like shitting on rebels every week. But it's funny because like this is the same position I've taken with Callis and Callis's eventual, you know, good guy arc. It's like, all right. I just can't.

I just can't do anything with it. Like, it's here, it's coming. They're going to keep fumbling the bag with Sabine. They're going to keep, they're going to, they fumbled the bag in the past with Calus. We just have to make peace and move forward. And if we get a nice surprise, we get a nice surprise. I don't feel like Ali's writing my piece. Allie, where are you at?

I do think there's like, it's just they're slow rolling it too much. Like, you know, there's a version of leaving this episode and being like, oh, wow, it's really interesting how invested Sabine was to. Rao that she's like going to play chess with him every day. But we don't even really get a harp to harp between them besides like welcome to the family. I thought that was so interesting that

she has been hanging out with Rao. Like she's been but it was just so that he would sign her sign up form for the Rebel Alliance and that's it. But she doesn't even make the case. This is the thing that's killing me.

is like she could make the case to row at any point in this episode about why the rebels are important, about why is she, why does she care about the rebels and not the Mandalorians? Why is there actually some sort of synergy between the rebels and the Mandalorians? How is she using what she learned at the Mandalorians to connect to the rebels? Like any sort of attempt to tie these two threads together and makes no attempt at all. And also, the fact that we're talking about this, when Ezra is the biggest term he's been, in months really really

I think signals the fumbled bag here because he says shit in this episode like why would Mandalorians attack other Mandalorians bro crack open a book and also I guess it goes to show

that he isn't talking to Sabine about shit because if Sabine hasn't told him that Mandalorians often fight on other Mandalorians she truly is not talking to anybody on this ship you know like

that's 101 Mandalorian shit in her lifetime mandolarian shit where are you from? Not talking about it, clearly. She's not sharing anything with anyone which supports your idea, Ali, they are slow rolling something. I know from Chatter that she's like a big deal in the Asoka show.

She's basically one of the protagonists of that show, not just like it's not just like the Asoka show. It's like the Asoka and Sabine show. And so like maybe they really are. Maybe it all goes somewhere. I keep saying out loud, maybe we'll be the Asoka Defender's one day, which I don't actually believe, but maybe. I live my heart open to possibility.

The beast of possibility is real. Or maybe whoever's writing the Asoka show looked at Rebels and been like, we forgot to give Sabine a plot, didn't we? We still have a season and a half. I realize, I realize we only have five more recording episodes of season three. So like, we're like moving through it, you know?

Maybe you just like toss new plot at her. Maybe that one will stick. Oh, a fourth thing, a fifth thing. Yeah, that's the, that's their part this is it's just like they're not investing in any one line of her character so and the thing that suffers here in this is and the more I see the more I begin to actually feel this is a critique of everything they do with the Mandalorian shit and why like it's such a huge whiff for me with the series yeah um where like the Mandalorian I'm interested in is a lone gunslinger looking

after a kid the more it is like but what about these Mandalorians, the more it begins to lose me. And part of it is just like, we get so now varied portrayals of their backstory that don't, that none of them quite match up in a satisfying way. It's not like more detail is being resolved in the background. It's just like more shit that's appearing. Like I still feel like the clearest sense we get of like who the Mandalorians are. It's not first episode where we go there to deal with Duchess Sotene, we see what's

come with their planet in the clone wars. There's a really compelling through line. Warrior people devastated their own planet and sequence of wars. Yep. Society split along lines between people who are like, we cannot do this anymore. We have to embrace pacifism and community. And people are like, the old warrior ways are best.

We're going to our warrior moon. And they are still there kind of undermining this peaceful society against the backdrop. Great through line. Tons of good stuff. You can position characters in various places throughout there. And now we're getting more of this like, well, she's Clan Visla. And that means that, well, what does it mean? What does it mean?

We're being really hand-wavy about, like, what the clans are all doing to each other right now. This is the thing. I'm here for internecine conflict between different clans of a unified Mandalorian thing. Like, this is, without going into it more, this is a Cotor 2 thing I am actually very interested in. Right? We've talked before about, like, the, in our Cotaur 1 stuff, the idea of there being like a mandolary. or who unites all of the clans underneath them, right? Like, that's a fun thing.

I love the idea of there being different subclans who believe different things or who end up turning on each other or who are in competition with one another. Again, grew up on battle tech, right? The idea that these like different clans are allied in general, but maybe have internal rivalries or want to outdo each other or sometimes even sabotage each other, there's lots of gas on the tank on that, right? You could totally do that. again, Star Trek filled with warrior races that have this sort of these sorts of stories that totally work.

You can do that. They don't do it here because what's Clan Visla in 3BY or wherever we are now? What are the other clans? What did people specifically believe about these different groups is outside of like Allie, you said like loyalist gets thrown around, loyal to the throne over and over again? And it's like, does that mean the same thing today that it did in Sotene's time? has that shifted in some way are the different clans like good at different things

like not to get too not to get too commercial you know so many skews so many products about it but if you're going to tell me that you have the Mandalorians are divided into a bunch of different clans and you're making a fucking action show

for children where you're going to try to sell toys and you don't tell me what like the most populous four or five clans are that have different identities that like this is the fast one and this is the armor one and this is the one that believes in you know, space magic, whatever the fuck it is,

you have an opportunity to play in that space. And early Mandalorian TV show stuff does a little bit, and then it all falls into the big blob again because they don't have the juice. It's also where Fallonis, like, dubiously comprehending affection for samurai shit, uh, begins to really work against him,

uh, because, like, The Mandalorian, the arc is like, these people are fucking awesome. They live by honor and codes and they like live that shit. Just like in Kurosawa movies. If you watch Kurosawa movies and come away being like, Samurai fucking rule, these guys live according to codes and honor and it's all real concepts for them,

then like you've watched real different movies. Yeah. Maybe you've got to watch more than one movie. There's like one character who fits that bill and he gets got real hard. and Ron. Beyond that, they're all shits. Oh, like, you're gonna come at me, you, Yubo? That guy ain't a samurai.

That guy's, that guy's a wandering Ronan. And he's a private eye. He's a 1930's private eye. He's repurposed to put a sword in his hand. Point is. I hadn't thought about that, that angle, the samurai angle on them, and it's totally right. And it's totally bungled for the reasons you're saying. Because the thing that, the other thing's missing here

is, like, imagine how, like, if in that opening scene where it's like, you should be serving Mandelor. You don't be great is some character to be like, you know what fuck

Mandelor? Like, if somebody just came in and was fully like, you know why we were occupied to the empire? Because we cut each

other's fucking throats all the time. You know who should have said that? Sabine. Yes. This is the thing. If Sabine was like

actually fuck Mandelor and then over the course of the show came to have, came to re-knit her identity with the Mandalorians and find some way forward.

That's a character art. It's the, they keep inverting it in these fucked up ways where it's like come on fenn you belong with the rebellion i'm not entirely sure that's that's true but the more compelling pitch is mandolore is never going to be restored or free in any sense unless the rebellion wins right you at least make that that case it's not made but yes far in a way the more interesting that thing

to have happen in those like little chess games would be her trying to win the argument by being like why do you care about mandolore so much like mandolore is over like our society ended thrice over by now. Like, what is left is a shambles. And for him to be like, you may not believe in Mandelor, but Mandelor believes in you. Now we got an interesting, like, we got an interesting, like, tension here that centers on Mandelor and what does that identity mean? But no. Instead, it's like, I'm certain, like, I can't even, I'm trying to, like, surmise what her position is, but you're, to Natalie's point, it's never actually stated. We don't get to a good place with, like, here's why I quit the academy.

Here's why I just discount what my family's plans were for me. Here's why I don't care about any of that. It's characters telling us about Sabine's backstory, like the reading of dossier. And then her being like, yeah, I don't give a shit. And moving, it's like, this is where you stop writing scenes for one of your players, basically. It's just like, I'm not, you know what?

Actually, this villain, it's actually all about this other character in the party. I think I my my honest thought is that it's probably just like this like drip feed like there is going to be some episode in the future not to unmake peace with myself but I feel like there is going to be an episode in the future where like all but it's just like but I feel like it wants to tease the mystery maybe it's this season Natalie because we're getting episodes. called things like trials of the dark saber and legacy of mandolore later this season and i'm not this is not me trying to shut down all of our frustration it's that like my fear at this point is we're going to go from zero to 60 in a second and it's like wait where how much are you going to stuff into this two part episode or whatever that you should have spread out across you know the whole three seasons of growth for this character so far you know mall katana isn't a personality it's not

again a mall katana or a mall katana because it's kind of both again I'm going to just say it every time because it's really it's so funny that it is a katana too like it literally has the katana shape and edge and stuff and maybe it's not as curved as a katana is but it has that like point anyway

Darks they were incredibly stupid still very cool unfortunately very cool um can I say a nice thing about this episode sure there are a couple of camera movements that I think are really good. There's the bit where the Imperial Probe Droid sees them. This is, you know, whatever, five minutes into the episode.

And there's this really wonderful camera shot as the Probe Droid like, they see the probe droid, and then we get a downward-looking shot on them at an angle that feels almost like it's from a POV shot from the Droid, but it isn't, and it zooms out to reveal the droid coming in from the right side of the screen. And it's just like really great camera work. And then similarly during the interrogation between Gar Saxon and Ezra, there's this great moment where it's a shot of Saxon head on, like a straight on shot. And then he walks screen right and the camera kind of pans left back and up to zoom up to this kind of again overhead shot of him interrogating Ezra in the same shot. And that's just like, yeah, they're learning how to use the camera in really fun ways.

I like when that stuff feels dynamic and really cool, because often the show, when it is just a talky forward episode, can do shot reverse shot stuff in a really boring way. And so when they find ways to inject a little bit of dynamism into the camera work, especially when it's stuff like the interrogation that supports the sort of like, look at this taller perspective, looking down on Ezra, that's good. That's filmmaking. Good job. Keep it up. And then also that whole sequence, Rob, that you talked about, the Ezra clinging on to. Sabine while she back or she jetpacks through the canyon stuff. Fun. Fun. Fun. Swash Buckley. He's Blaster. He's knocking back blaster bolts as it happens. He does a very funny yelp when that sequence

starts and she grabs him. I did have the fear from that moment or I was like, oh, are they going to try to make Ezra Sabina thing? Are they going to do that? Because it's kind of been threatened on and off since the beginning of the show. And I don't know. I mean, I guess they're not. They're not going to do for a second I was like, are they going to do the Jedi and the Mandalorian overcome eons of, you know, enmity in order to re-knit these, these cultures, da-da-da-da-da. But the answer is no, because we've seen the Mandalorian, and that's just not where things are in the future, right? What does it rhyme, though, and he kissed her little helmet for luck?

That would be funny. He should be funny. Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh. How do we feel about him not getting the, like, just, Just losing, like, just losing track around because he's like, what's the deal of Mandeliorians? It's so funny. That would be me. That would be me there too.

I honestly, I relate to Ezra for the first time ever. Because if I was on that fucking spaceship and still, I've been living with this chick for like years now. And I don't know shit about her and her like non-homie homie is here. and he's, like, not saying shit either. I would ask some questions and get my ass clocked in the back of the head, for sure. I relate to that. So, realistically, yeah, I liked that.

That was actually a highlight for me of this episode. Yeah. The thing... That and Sabine's jetpack, Sabine getting a jetpack and then immediately losing it. That was the... It's very funny. it's like it's some car it's some looney tune shit I'm like is there a reason why she can't have a jetpack yet

like is there going to be some some big character moment yeah big character moment where she finally why does she build herself a jetpack she's an engineer she invent shit I don't know maybe she will be able to like fix this one is what I was hoping at the end of this episode yeah me too me too so just a real quick I do think this is kind of sloppy

in some ways like Fenrow is all over the map with what his position is on all this and why he's angry at the rebellion I don't understand this wrong this was another clan no the empire did no it was another clan it wouldn't have happened if I were here and what emerges is

well they were Mandalorians or at least they're led by Mandalorian and they're working for the empire And then he has this weird distinction where they're like, these guys are dishonorable. They serve the empire. The protectors of Concordaun were serving the empire too. Like is it like mercenary company honorable. Like colonial gendarmery, dishonorable.

It's even weirder than that for me, Rob, because the thing that he says is when towards the end, right, he goes, he was going to kill us anyway. Had you and your Jedi not captured me, I'd be dead. alongside my men executed by the empire. No, you wouldn't. No, you wouldn't. You'd still be working for them. If you had captured the Jedi in that previous battle and turned them over, in fact, you probably would have gotten a promotion. They would have paid your ass more. You would have been, you would have proven how useful you were. Maybe you would have been folded into this new Imperial Super Commando program or something. But like, the reason they came to kill you wasn't that you existed alone. You know, like, the whole situation was, you

would be different had you not been captured. So it doesn't, it just doesn't add up in any way. Yeah. And also, like, first of all, the whole Imperial Super Commandos title doesn't really work because that's not really interesting part of all this. And also it kind of just seems like, we're caught by, we are caught once again, uh, by the toy lovers, by trivia lovers here, right? Um, uh, the Imperial Super Command.

those come from Empire Strikes Back developmental concept art. They were supposed to be a type of new super stormtrooper all in white. This is where a Boba Fett comes from. If you look up, you know, I'm feeling like the white Boba Fett. If you look up white Boba Fett, you will find like test footage of the Boba Fett armor in all white from Empire Strikes Back. You will find Imperial Super Commando, Super Trooper or whatever concept art. that was done for the film.

This is just them. Once again, going to the archives and be like, ooh, let's repurpose this thing and give it a new thing that never came out. It wasn't part of the old EU.

It was just part of the old, you know, trivia bank. Let's take this concept art and make it real and use the same name that it was used in the concept art,

like developmental stuff. And that is, it just doesn't land for me. Well, you have to do something with it. Yeah. Like, if you're going to introduce the concept,

like this is, like, We know that eventually they're like, hey, dark forces was cool. Right. Dark forces understands the assignment. Like it's a shooter. You need to have a big stormtrooper with a big gun to be the role of like the cyber demon in doom or something. Yeah.

So you create the dark trooper. And you don't show them for a long time. And then they show up and they're cool. They're, you know, they fight. They kind of are like Mandalorians, really. They have jet packs, they do all the shit. But you have to make the notion of like, oh, man, our enemies are all. always creating terrifying new weapons.

If you're going to introduce this concept that, like, man, they're using Mandalorians, like train a cadre of Mandalorian-trained stormtroopers. That's interesting. It's an interesting stakes to all this, but that's not really what comes out of this. It's not really the focus of all this.

The other thing that I'll think would have actually been quite funny for this notion of, like, the Mandalorians can't stop Clan infighting, is that to your point, Austin, you would think that, hey, just have these guys be like toll collectors in this system and close it to rebels, should have squelched it. But it kind of sounds like this dude, he's like, yep, I'll be your military governor of Mandelor, sir. And then it's like, I'm going to kill these other clans.

It's going to be great. And next thing, you know, you get Civil War on Mandelor again, which is, that's juicy. Spoiler. I mean, like, so increasingly, like, man. Mandalor equals Afghanistan to an extent because this is kind of a story of like what happened is the minute like you show up and are like we just need to rebuild a stable like national government here and these people are our allies these are our guys yeah these are like these guys don't have any context for any of this I'm their ally which means you guys get to pound sand yeah yeah well it's like a couple of things one we already have a space Afghanistan it's on Duran you can have two space Afghanistan's I guess we have Space Afghanistan 1980s and Space Afghanistan 2000s now is actually what we have. Two, it is the thing that I think we're going to run into is the Mandalorian where none of that gets developed, right? Where again, all of this gets squashed down.

I believe we see more of this character in other stuff eventually, maybe more in rebels even. And maybe they will develop along those lines. But I don't know. I just don't have faith in them to continue. That feels like a Clone Wars thing, not like a Rebels thing. And that's partly because we just don't stick around anywhere, except Lothal, where we return to again and again. And now I guess chopper base planet, right? But like, I don't know.

It doesn't feel like they're going to, I would love to see them continue to develop this out. I would love that angle on this guy being like I've used my viceroy label to like perform my little purge. That's fun villain stuff. And I think in a longer arc Or where Sabine could care about that stuff And maybe that is Maybe that's how we come back around on it I don't know

We'll see We'll see We'll see But yeah It's just like It's a shit I was really excited off then row

Because like For all my jokes about like Oh do you know who Sorry Do you know who is voicing Gar Saxon by the way Who This is Ray Stevenson

So Who is a Long running Now past character actor Was in Rome For years and is in Asoka as a different character as like one of the primary antagonists in Asoka

and who you know has a certain presence Oh no he was Polo in Rome Yeah Oh he passed He died last year he died when Asoka was coming out Yeah Sorry Rob

But hey something to look forward to in Asoka True true There's one of the guys with the weird orange lightsaber Yeah Uh huh Yeah Anyway sorry to be your bearer of bad news yeah that's a shame probably a Latin word for that

right and there was a time I'd studied enough to know that yeah yeah I don't know I was I was kind of bummed that like it doesn't develop on some of the fun stuff that we were toying around with last time where he's kind of this flying ace and divided loyalties and now we kind of gotten this like sloppy take on Mandelor and like what people's motivations are and all this, which maybe is also, maybe in some fairness to the show, maybe one reason Sabine is so slippery is because they're like, we haven't actually figured out what we're going to do with Mandelor. And so they keep like implying complexity, but they can't delve into details because

fundamentally they're like, we don't want to commit anything. We don't want to commit ourselves to anything. Yeah. I don't know. It's like, I think Ali is probably right, which is that they've committed. but they just aren't ready to pull the trigger yet. And maybe it's like they really only have seven episodes worth of Mandalorian A plot to do

and they're like, we can't pull the trigger on that. Let me tell you about a show we're called The Mentalist and it's central organizing conceit. And when it's go time to pull the trigger on a story. Pull the damn trigger. It's great. You figure out what comes after after. That's right.

You just have a good time after. Don't worry about it. He's kind of fuck around for a season and a half. It is a season and half like, let's get a good. on yeah remember these characters you love don't worry about it they're around still um i will say the other thing this made me feel was like it again feels like it deflates some of the moth gideon stuff in mandolarian where it's like his big plan is combining the mandolian you know uh you know style of combat or whatever with imperial efficiency and i guess also some forced stuff like

that part's added but it's like okay dude for 20 years the empire's already been working with Mandalorians direct you know like it ain't even a that's not a novel idea at this point they did it 20 years ago but just they hired Mandalorians and they seemed all right you know so yeah he just turned out to be like Darth Webus right it's like he's basically just like I'm gonna have my guys do katas all right that's cool yeah that's gonna restore the empire uh all right Iron Squadron Oh Okay, well time out

Let me first give me the thing you don't know The three members of Iron Squadron are all named after beloved members of the Lucasfilm team Mart Matton is named after Matt Matton who is a guy in the Lucasfilm team

John Ergin is named for John Harper, who is, I think, a cameraman. I think Matt Matton is a writer. And then Goody Terrace, the alien girl, is, of course, named for our fave, Rebels recon host, Andy Gutierrez, Goody Terrez. Oh, good for her. Which is good for her. Good for these folks, they got little characters.

I feel, I don't know, somehow it just turned racist. I don't know. I don't love, I would be a little like, you put. me in this one. Goody. Goody Terrace, huh? Goody Tehras. Goody.

Yeah, I thought you were going to say that it was named after their pets, which would have been a very believable thing. And a funny thing for the writer's room to do with these characters. Which are all, like, fine, but are there? All right. So, we're in it. So, the ghosts are taking aid to a planet. my capo it is being blockaded by the empire uh things are not going well there it's basically

they need to take they need to immediately it's like we just need to evacuate this planet uh and they're telling everyone it's time to it's time to run but they come into the middle of a battle where by god is that is that dash rendar ship no it's not but it's a real similar uh it's a really similar transport and it's piloted by some plucky it's some plucky kids who just are just refuse to leave and they wave off any offers for aid and they continue fighting the empire and they win surprisingly enough they do they do a cool little move where uh they make a run at one of the uh the the imperial transport that's besieging the planet and they release a bunch of shipping containers at it uh they're filled with explosives and blast the hell out of it and force

the empire to retreat and they refuse to leave they are warned the umpires going to be back like the battle on this planet is done it's time to run they hands down refuse and it turns out uh commander saddo has a special interest in getting these kids uh getting these kids out of there because their captain is his nephew uh and his commander saddo's brother has died in the fighting uh down there his family the family's been killed and uh this This kid, what's his name again? Mart Matton. Mark?

Mark. Mark. Mark Matton, named after Matt Martin, now a member of Lucasville's story group. He was a producer on Rebel's Recon and helped create the Star Wars show. Yeah. Well, anyway, he has real, like, 2015, like, Vine, like, teen boy influencer haircut energy, you know? yeah or like 1970s like boy pop idol energy you know yeah yeah yeah kind of but either way they're warned he's headstrong but uh ezra and sabine and chopper go back to try to talk these

kids into doing a smart thing wising up evacking getting a lot of there uh and the kids are not hearing it they they're they think they're winning uh they're pretty convinced they killed a star destroyer in the last battle. And they refuse to evacuate. Also, they can't, their ship doesn't have a hyper drive. And so they want to just stick it out and continue fighting there. Thron at this point decides to send Admiral Constantine out there as kind of a test to see like how cleaning this whole situation up goes for him. and what ends up happening is

you know, Mark realizes he's overmatched but this point it's too late, no escape. Everyone flees. He is trapped there and used as bait for the rebels by Admiral Constantine. And then the launch of rescue mission, it goes surprisingly well. Admiral Constantine is hoisted by his own petard.

Well, Theron has sent him out there with less than he's used to. Very clear Constantine likes to show up like over uh overarmed you know just throw numbers at them and he sent out there with what he should need to succeed at this and he cannot succeed with just an imperial cruiser and some some ties it turns out yeah he gets he gets rolled pretty badly real black guy for his career yeah uh-huh uh and iron squadron is brought back to commander sato and are welcomed into the fold as, as rebels.

Thanks for joining us this week. Can I tell you a fear I had when starting this episode? Please. There was a point at which I had a fear that for some reason we were going to encounter young Han Solo. Oh, sure. Oh. This the energy of like, when they were like, and he's the best young

youngest pilot ever there was something about the way that they were like presenting this mysterious kid who's just so epic at flying I had like shook me into my core

I was shaking my boots thinking that Han Solo might show up but thankfully that did not happen just a teen just a regular teen who like I I really thought this was going to be an episode where Ezra got to, like, have a new boyfriend to, like, you know what I mean, talk to about his feelings

about being in the world and being a young rebel. No, not really. I just, like, I just, I, Ezra, it is, it is cool when Ezra has someone who isn't in the main crew to talk to. He has lots of uncles, but he doesn't have lots of friends. And it would have been really cool if there had been some better conversation. I will say, we talk a lot of shit about Sabine's character arc or lack thereof. And Ezra obviously gets much more attention than Sabine does because of being the de facto protagonist and being a Jedi and all that stuff.

But, like, it still sometimes feels like he's undercooked as a character, partly because of who he ends up being around. And I was like, oh, maybe we'll get an episode where, like, we get another side of Ezra. We get to see Ezra as, like, Ezra the teenager. And that just, like, they gesture at that, but that doesn't even happen in here. instead it's just kind of like these three kids you don't care about are here and they suck but they're connected to a guy who

is important so we have to save them and so we're going to do a whole ass episode about that for some reason I don't know there's a point where they're like just leave us behind and I was like yeah okay I don't know them I don't okay

it's a a weird position to put Ezra in because like it feels like you know there's the scene where the Ezra sort of has a heart to heart with some of the crew yeah where he's like I understand why you guys are afraid I was so afraid too yeah and it's supposed to be this moment of like oh you know Ezra's really grown up he's mature than we we saw on the first episode and there are a lot of other plot lines you could have developed that with yeah or different sorts of kids not the i keep thinking that imperial ships are the wrong one bro okay that's kind of funny though but also it underscores their dumbasses that's the problem is like sometimes you get into

problems you can't get out of because like the same errors in judgment lead you to sort of a terminal spiral and there was a point real early in this where it's like oh these kids are just determined to get themselves killed like these are these guys are really like they have no they have no concept of who they are fighting right it's right you can't really say like oh they're a rebel cell or

it's like they don't really even comprehend like who the empire is yeah yeah it's this is the moped kids in space to an extent like similar vibe of like here's a quirky little irreverent crew

um and I think it's just like Kids show Like we're watching the show for children Every six episodes You gotta get some new kids in there And yeah

I guess this is me shrugging I don't I do not have a great time with this one Get more like Of them relating to each other as kids Like you said Austin Like I just wish that That was more meaningful Like what does it mean to be young

And a part of the rebellion What does it mean to be like putting the sort of pressure of your entire planet on your shoulders as a kid. Like I think those are really interesting questions. And like you said, was an opportunity for Ezra to relate to or even like let his guard down a little bit and be like, yo, this shit is like intense for us kids out here. I don't know. I'm going to say something and you need to forgive me. You have to tell and promise me you won't get mad.

Who me? The whole podcast. Okay. All right. You know what Ark did this better where it was like, here are two people who are young and like they're surrounded by a big war and but they're relating to each other as young people and that's kind of like an exception to what their normal relations are. I know what it is.

I know what it is. Osokka and Pookie. What was his name? Pookie. Who called him Pookie? I thought you meant Barris and Osoka. Oh, no. That would be great.

Lux. Luxmentary. Yeah. That's what we're talking about. That's poohy. Yeah. Uh-huh. No, that's who Natalie means.

Who calls him Pookie? No one. Just you. I just got to remember what her boo's name was. Yeah. But like, they have multiple conversations in that way. Even the Anderan arc where he shows up and there's like the love triangle thing happening. Yes, yes, yes.

That's being the teen shit. That's being teen shit. And like I think that these, this crew of kids gets kind of done dirty by just being put into an episode of the week. Like, oh no, we have a, we have a spaceship. that's trapped and how do we save them and didda-da-da-da-da. If he had gotten to meet them in some other circumstance where they got to be like do teen shit, they got to like hang out in some other way, maybe that would have been stronger. But like, contrast this with Lux and Asoka getting to talk and Asoka being like, damn, like,

not like, damn, Lux von Terry, damn. But like, damn, like, here's a part of my life I've never gotten to cultivate. Like, what would it be like to just be a regular kid? I never had a boyfriend. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's, or even just like the weird, again, the Anderon, like, who's, who's like I and who up and like, are you allowed to date my sister? Or you allowed to do, da, da, da, like, all of that stuff was so much more interesting. And felt like it was connecting to that sort of teens on the edge of war. So even though they're at war in Anderon, they're doing war shit. They're blowing stuff up. You still have that. And again, Andoron is three episodes, right? So you have the space to do that. Here it's just like, Ezra bumps into. three weird kids and they don't really doesn't go anywhere you know who are just like meant to be

like like parallel kind of parallel kids to them like you've got the kind of like cool girl you've got a droid yeah like you got the big guy the big big guy cool girl and droid those are the three and main boy and main guy and floppy hair boy he has he has alternate season one and two Ezra hair. Exactly. Like he'll he'll buzz his head in like two seasons from now. And maybe that's like, you know,

part of it is just these characters are. Yeah. So frustrating from the standpoint of like we're we're on the side of the ghosts here. And these kids just aren't getting it. It's like it's not, you know what I mean? It's not like they're

challenging allies where like you run into like champsendula challenging ally right because he's from he's in a context where he he has a lot of good reason skepticism that his interest truly overlap in the line with yours frustrating also because he's like kind of you know not he won't give a fair hearing to the other argument uh he's very set in his ways but like that's that's that's a challengeing ally these are just kind of like frustrating kids who just don't get it and you know you In a weird way, I think it created a bit of a better moment for Sabine and Ezra as they go try to clean this shit up, that suddenly they feel like upperclassmen who are trying to be like, okay, let's just get these kit, like, fix their ship, try to reason with them. Like, just let's deal with this.

But I do think like this group of this Iron Squadron is so frustrating, so kind of irritating from the jump. and that really kind of cuts the stakes down of the episode I guess the thing that I would maybe have dug a little bit more is the notion and they almost get to this where Mart's friends realize

Mark's an idiot like and that would have been the interest maybe that was where I felt like there was an interesting move to be made here was the notion that like okay Mark's kind of like this militant Tom Sawyer

character out here where he's like, look how awesome I am, doing this mischief. And eventually these other kids see reason. But at that point, it's like almost too late to like get out of this jam that Marks brought them into.

That would have been an interesting notion. And, uh, the Avatar TV series did something similar where like in the first season they run into a real cool waterbender resistance fighter. and it turns out that like he's also pretty into the terrorism and maybe the nealism that like there there's kind of a who cares who gets hurt as long as I as long as

I get some taste of of my revenge there's a few directions you could have gone with this where it's like you you have sort of the the the dark inversion of the kids on the ghost but they don't go that route either instead it's just like all right Right, let's try, let's try to save this dumb ass for himself. Well, and this is not a show that has, like you pointed out earlier, there's no threat in this show. No one here is going to get hurt. These kids, like, not that. Clone Wars would have killed a bunch of kids either, right?

We went through the kids' arc in Clone Wars. But somehow, when you think about the, the Padawan arc or the Youngling arc of Clone Wars, and they were still able to, at least, and I know we didn't love that arc. I remember. I don't remember. I'm not trying to be revisionist about it. But at least there was like a sense of who these characters are that goes beyond the, none of these characters feel like anything, right?

And like I think about moments like the younglings all having their like one big test of trying to get the crystal and stuff. And all that was like, oh, okay, like I learned something about who this character was. I'm like, oh, there's stakes for children in this children's show. Will they make it through the test? Will they get to become the Jedi they want to be? The stakes here are, will these children die? And the answer is going to be no.

You know the answer is going to be no, but those are the stakes that you set up. They could have been different stakes. The stakes could have been, will they impress Sato enough to be able to join? They want to join. But Sado says it's too dangerous for them. Can they prove that they can be, you know, capable fighters? It could be, hey, we want to save other people. We want to impress our, we want to, I want to make something up to my father who died.

I want to make him proud, you know. And then at the end, you go, I think you made him proud, Mart, or whatever. And, like, that's not, you don't get enough of that stuff. There's other ways to tell that story and, like, just doesn't come out in the wash in a good way. It doesn't just a confused episode in some ways in terms of the, like, okay, they jump in to save them, they jump out, they jump back in, they jump back in. Like, there's, like, the flow of action is not linear in a build sense.

It's like, it's kind of like staccato, like stop and go traffic. And it just never feels fun. It doesn't, you don't get that like, ooh, I'm, I'm being whisked away. on an adventure sense, which I think both of the previous episodes do better, even though we're not super high on those, at least there's like rising action and then climax. And here it's like, again, it's like stop and go traffic. It feels like at the writer's room mistake of like when you're talking at children instead of with children, because they're like not actually engaged with these personalities or the reality of the situation at all. And like we've seen that

they're able to do that. Like, I think even, like, Jabo Hood might have been a little bit more developed and sympathetic character at the end of this besides like, oh, these kids make a lot of mistakes and clearly this is wrong. And we have to help them. And Ezra and Sabine are here to help them where, like, you know, there could be this sort of, like, actual engagement with, you know, why they don't want to leave their planet.

or even the thing of like, it's not like we haven't been able to see or sympathize with like immaturity. Like Ezra's immaturity keeps getting needed throughout the show. And Sabine's like lack of talking about herself will hopefully eventually be an immaturity with her that she'll grow from. But with these, there's like, there isn't even note much less than being one-note characters. That is a good point because it does. feel like these characters were introduced as inserts to be like, and these characters are

for the kids so they can see themselves in the show. But kids see themselves in the adults in these stories too. That's how they work. Is the kids see all these facets of like things they aspire to or things that they feel within themselves or directions or experiences that they haven't considered. What is it like? How does the world look like from mom and dad's perspective? Like why seem to them? Oh, what kind of like hero would I be in this universe? And then it's, this does feel that condescending thing where it's like, here's some cool kids for the youngsters. It's like, no, I'm already seeing myself as Hera or Sabine or Canaan, right? Like, I didn't need to be spoon fed, a Martin, Matton, you know?

It's like, it's a similar, you know, it's little kids saw themselves Luke Skywalker. Right. You know, a young man, but still like, it's kids media in a lot of ways. right where it's like yeah like young hero prove himself this is like this this episode's concept would be like what we got to get is luke skywalker has a little buddy yeah just nope not our two no it's got to be like a little kid like dack littler smaller littler but this how you get to iwarks right it's like they're not humans it's a little guy it's little iwock named wicket i guess he doesn't know Luke though. Luke never really

hangs with the Ewox, huh? True. No, they just like tie him up briefly like, oh, he hangs from the stick. True, but yeah, he doesn't really like get down with them. But yeah, it's just, it's kind of a goofy thing. You know,

the thing does kind of work for it. Like, it builds toward a final rescue set piece where once that little fucker is in over his head and they booby trap the ship. Yeah. And launched the rescue mission at that point it does turn into classic like all right the a team's got got to save this save this kid and take out this imperial cruiser and look anytime you're making

anytime chopper and another droid who sucks have to go on an adventure together it's good magic happens yeah i love it whenever whenever chopper pushes a droid out of an airlock whether it's to hurt him or to help him i'm on board thumbs up this is like that is that Raymond Chandler was like Whenever he's stuck, he just has a guy walk into the room with a gun. Love it. This is like the Rebels equivalent is like, just have chopper push a droid out in there. Just put, yeah, we'll have some fun hijinks. Don't worry about it.

Always wins, always moves things along. There's some great visual stuff here. The, the, I almost said Jabba Hood, Mart thinking that he's done the cargo trick again on the cruiser, but then the cruiser comes out of the smoke and it's just like, that's great. When the Star Destroyer actually shows up and he learns how big a Star Destroyer is, I said it last episode, I'll say it again. warping in still is one of the coolest visual trick Star Wars has great sound design on that like okay I do love the the smoke roiling off that cruiser though like the monstrousness of it

the sense of like okay this was your best shot yeah and it also thron like hearing thron's music is good right thron showing up halfway through this episode and being like oh thank god oh thank god we're going to get like a brief imperial perspective on the things that are going on I'll have something little to chew on. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. Look, he's sending Constantine off to fail, you know, to fall on his face and, and prove that he doesn't fucking anything. Thank God.

Love it. Fantastic. You know, I can, I can, I'm glad we have this little release valve for us now, which is good. There's one little thing. I had this thought. Is Thron playing a different game? I love the same thing. Is he actually just like, is this Thron here to,

undermine the empire in some way? Or there's two things. Purge out. Well, I think that's the A read. I think the A read is that he's here to clean to clean house of all the fuck-ups, right? Like, he's sending Constantine out with less than what he's used to so that he has to, like, swim or drown, right? And he's hoping he'll drown. My B-read is, is he here to undermine the empire in some way for an outside force, which I don't

know where this all goes. I don't know how the Chis, I don't know, does the Chis ascendency even exist? I don't know. In this. But we do, we do this stuff is implied that like, when the empire goes belly up, Thron is not there in the wreckage. Right. And we know that because of Mandalorian. Yeah, he's out there. So like, is he doing a thing where it's like, all right, I'm going to purge out the people under my command were useless. Right. Any excuse to just like, I need to identify them. And then I'm going to have basically a, power base within my within the empire here that i can just sort of like remove whole cloth speaking of things that are star trekky think about the chis ascendancy existing in in star

war's canon another sort of star trekish uh you know um exterior uh power that that kind of cardassian a little cardassian yeah yeah we got to figure out a we got to figure out a way to get people sped to get Natalie and Ali like just a taste of what is Star Trek maybe it's a future bonus thing we'll watch like three episodes of Star Trek. What would be the

like intro like how could I eat all of Star Trek in one meal? So the problem is there's different Star Trek's. This is always like for instance I do think if you're just familiar with the concept of like who's Kirk who's Spock

Wrath of Khan is just a great fucking movie. Yeah. But that's not why Star Trek is great. It's not why Star Trek is, yeah, I like, I like Rathocon. I'm pro Rathop Khan. But like Star Trek is, Star Trek is fucking television. Star Trek is episode of the week. We got a weird mystery on board this spaceship, right?

And it also has just like a lot of really fun world building. It has lots of really interesting. Like the setting is really fascinating. Like the politics of the different factions is really fascinating. But mostly it's like, here is your question. core cast of the main people on this giant spaceship, because these spaceships are like city-sized, but like the crew is like the people who work on the bridge, basically. And then like they run into something weird.

They run into a weird alien force that makes them play a game. They run into a weird planet where the rule, all the, there's no law, but except for the mafia's law. They get stuck in a hot, in like a holographic, you know, version of 1930 Chicago. real, like, high-concept one-off episodes. And then over the course of an entire season or entire series, bigger threats show up. Oh, there's this big group of assimilative AI creatures that are spreading throughout the galaxy. Oh, there is a simmering ethnic conflict between two different groups, one of whom had been, you know, enslaved by the primary one for eons.

and now they're recently free. Like, there's a lot of, like, big picture stuff and small stuff. And they all feel different, right? Like, original series feels different than Next Generation, which feels different than Deep Space Nine, which feels different from Voyager and, et cetera. And I don't know that there's like a, for me, I think, when I think of, like, Star Trek, even though I think I probably like Deep Space Nine the most, I think of, like, mid-series next generation.

It's kind of me. And I feel like that would be a fun bonus thing that we could do later this year at some point. It's just like, watch three next-gen episodes. They're, they're an hour each. They're a little X-Files-y. Like, there's like a, like, if you want to, like, a touchstone, something like X-Files or, like, um, um, uh, Twilight Zone, like big, high concept idea, often a mystery, sometimes a military episode, sometimes a interpersonal thing, but always like a fun, clear log line.

Um, and we just don't have Star Wars in that space. Like, Rebels is the closest we've gotten to, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But, but yeah. Strange New Worlds is candy. It's good, though. I haven't seen it yet, so.

Yeah, it's neat. I think I actually have encountered Star Trek once. Well, it's not really, it wasn't really once. It was the, there were a bunch of like abandoned Star Trek sets at one of the studios that we filmed Immortality at. like spaceships and stuff but you were not allowed to take any photos of it but you could walk around them but um

I've been to Star Trek I just haven't watched people should message us and say what are like if you I think it's I think we could come up with this list Rob I think we it's like yeah but it is a scammer situation it's yeah uh-huh we could get there yeah for sure uh this episode never quite gets there

this one just doesn't it's like yeah we save these kids I don't know if we'll see them again I kind of hope they die on their first mission and we never hear about them again like oh damn like guys we need to get revenge for Iron Squadron the Empire just mask

they're not going to kill these kids well we're going to get it maybe off screen they're not going to kill these kids what are they even going to be used for like they're not going to trust a Y wing to one of these kids transport pilots

I guess. So there's another trivia thing here, which is that in the original script or maybe story outline of a new hope, when you get to the Battle of Yavin, like, command center, there were just supposed to be a bunch of kids there who were like a rag tag group of like lost boys who signed up to help the fight. And that just didn't make it into fucking Star Wars. And so they were like, we'll put it into rebels, which is like a disease. It is, they are infected by the cut content disease, which is like, that's a thing in the, in the, in. fandom culture writ large. Like one of the things that drives me, one of the, my biggest pet peeves is when people talk about stuff that was either, that was either literally left on the cutting room floor or sometimes only existed in the developmental or ideation stage as cut content in

the sense that like someone came in and cut this out and it's, it's lesser than for that. There's a really big and popular Cotor 2 mod that restores a bunch of, that restores a bunch of cut content, some of which was cut because it was not implemented correctly by the end of development and that development had a bunch of problems. And like, including some of it makes a lot of sense. One of those things is just like a really long, not very fun dungeon where you only get to play as one character that sucks. And I think that was cut because it wasn't good, right? People often in the Dragon's Dogma community talk about how much was cut from the first Dragon's Dogma game, and they look at things like, or a concept art for all the different

types of playable characters there originally was. And like, that's not cut content. That's concept art for when they were first developing an idea. No one made that shit and then it didn't, it didn't get put through. That was never greenlit. That was part of an initial proposal. And people like, there was a huge part of the fandom in general that does not know how to like work through those different categories of what is generally called cut, content in the same way that there are lots of people who don't understand what lost media is. It's driving me fucking crazy out here right now. I have to get off the fucking internet.

Anyway. Well, and also, like, okay, so the idea of, like, the Rebel Alliance has, like, all these, like, lost children type, type thing. That's kind of cool, right? Uh-huh. But, like, if we're going to do that, if we're going to go, like, the Peter Pan route, that is about the innocence of childhood, like, kind of, the, you know,

incipient, like, to an extent, like maybe the incipient, uh, like cruelty of children as well. Like sort of the darkness, uh,

like within kids. Here's just like, here's some, here's some cute kids. Uh, yeah, I don't know. Also,

you can't call yourself a squadron if you just got one ship. You got one ship. I get it's the kind of joke, but like somewhat, no, they should have at least ended with two ships. And then they could be like,

well, now we can really call ourselves loss or iron squadron or whatever. Anyway. Yeah. All right. Well, they can't all, they can't all win as thoroughly as, as her won the last battle of the Clone Wars. So, you know, we're just going to have to sit with this, sit with this frustration at the end of another episode of a more civilized age. Our show is produced by Ricardo Contreras and supported by our listeners at patreon.com slash civilized. Next week, what are the, what's the trio we're looking at here? Or are we going to be doing a super? This is a trio again.

It is the Winn-Kathu job, an inside man, and visions and voices. Okay, two of those sound like heisting. At least one of them, at least one of them is a heist, I think. Oh, wait, inside man. No, I know what inside man is. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Oh, yeah. It's time. Is it time? Are they going to pull the trigger on callus? I think you got to let things marinate a little bit, but. Could be. I'm not sure. I'm not sure Calais has ripened on that branch yet that you can just like pick this story beat off.

And I will say the thumbnail for visions and voices has some green magic mist in it, which we have not seen for quite some time. Hmm. Let's consider. Yeah. Who could say? You thought I was decanted, but now I'm back. All right. Well, until next time, please rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice.

And remember, fuck them kids.