A More Civilized Age: A Star Wars Podcast - 93: Heir to the Empire Pt. 1 (Ch. 1 - 10)

Episode Date: August 23, 2024

PIVOT! With Natalie on a short medical leave, the crew here at AMCA has made a decision. We've revisited your requests for what non-mainline content we could cover and decided to cover the second place candidate for what became our KOTOR series. That's right: It's THRAWN TIME baby! (That's his catchphrase, right?) So join us as we kick off our run through the Timothy Zahn trilogy that ushered in the old EU. First up: A depressed Luke, a galactic government that fits in a high school classroom, an Alien with a cat-lizard boa, and a new (well, old) take on the Clone Wars. NEXT TIME: Heir to the Empire Chapters 11-22 Show Notes Hosted by Rob Zacny (@RobZacny) Featuring Alicia Acampora (@ali_west), Austin Walker (@austin_walker), and Natalie Watson (@nataliewatson) Produced by Ricardo Contreras (@a_cado_appears) Music by Jack de Quidt (@notquitereal) Cover art by Xeecee (@xeeceevevo)  

Let us return once more to a more civilized age, a Star Wars podcast. I'm Rob Zakeney, joined by Aliaqipora, and Austin Walker. We are, as always, supported by you are listeners via patreon.com slash civilized. So head over there if you'd like to support the show and get access to all our Q&A episodes. On our last Q&A, we explained, what's going on? Where's Natalie? What are we doing today? So let's just take it from the top in case you didn't hear the Q&A.

Just due to some like a inconvenient but not scary medical issue that Natalie is having. Natalie's availability got kind of dodgy for the coming weeks. You know, we're going to be able to continue with rebels. We're going to have Natalie back. It's just one of those things where we could not guarantee a consistent run of shows you know, with where Natalie's schedule is at. So we had to think of a sheave-like pivot. And to fill the gap, we decided to,

we decided because Thrawn is now a character in Rebels and is moving into a role as one of the central antagonists of the series, it would be an opportune moment to take the sort of forced detour and not, we're not going to go look at Starvation. Wars detours just to be clear. Was Throne in that? Does Throne never show up in detours?

Who has the torrent? Who has the... So it's out there. Someone, there's a person in the world who could answer that question for us. Some, like, he's just trying to enjoy like a cool day at the art gallery and some wacky droids just like doing all sorts of mischief.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Classic. No, so we are going to be revisiting Timothy Zanz's heir to the empire novel trilogy from the early 1990s released under Bantam Spectra. This is the series that introduced Grand Admiral Thrawn as sort of one of the all-time great villains of the Expanded Universe that a lot of people, including apparently Dave Filoni, very enthusiastic about, and also established a lot of the characters that became

major parts of the old expanded universe, the what is now the Legends canon. and also how deviations from sort of the template and plot arcs laid down in some of this book became themselves contentious as different writers picked up or repurpose some of these threads as they saw fit. So we're going to be covering, we're going to be, the plan is to move along in a clip of three shows per book that roughly correlates to how many major plot arcs are in each novel, you know, this is, these are very big stories. There's a lot happening. There's a lot interesting scenes. If that ends up being overkill, uh, that we're sort of over chewing the books, we might speed it up. Uh, but for now, we are going to be discussing the first 10 chapters

of, uh, book one of air to the empire, also called air of the empire. Uh, and then the next show, I think we are going up to chapter, up to chapter 22, I want to say. Uh, let me I think you just told us. Yeah, I don't remember. I don't know what you told us. Yeah, let me just scroll up because it's, it did, it did neatly break out in that way.

So yes, so, so the next, the next show we're going to be doing will be chapters 11 through 22. Okay. And then the final show will be chapter 23. Yeah. Okay.

So we're reading chapter 22 for the next episode. Sounds good. So that's where things stand. I think this will be, will be doing the Air to the Empire stuff for a little while and by the time we wrap up the plan is we're able to resume regular programming around Rebels

so look forward to that as well so the Air to the Empire Trilogy very big deal for yours truly but big deal for for V? Oh for us for you're talking about us

not the listener you know I read this book once before in my life, at least. I own this book, reading it now, I'm going, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I knew this. This is not new to me. And it sent me spiraling back to be like, what is the, what was the first Star Wars novel I read, and where was it in relation to this, and when did it come out? And I very much came on board in the second or maybe third wave of these books that

were originally published by Bantam, Bantam Spectra. I remember being in an airport at nine years old and seeing I will post the cover. It is the cover of the Kevin J. Anderson book. Great covers. Oh, Allie, have you seen these covers? Have you looked at what these covers look like? I haven't. I've recently seen a bunch of heartthrob illustrations of Throne.

Oh, wonderful. Great. So these covers all had the like. rights for all of the principal actors from Star Wars. And so, like, fucking, you know, Luke and Leia and Hahn are on all of them, always looking off into the distance in some way. The first one I read was Jedi Search, and that's something that made me know that there were these.

And then I just kind of like, you know, you're nine or ten or eleven, you ask for them for gifts, a parent brings you one randomly, sometimes in the middle of an arc, and it doesn't, you know, sometimes they don't say. Because I think you and I may have had the same experience too. Yeah. In this wonderful era, this shit popped up in near supermarket checkouts. A hundred percent. It wasn't far from the magazine stuff.

Exactly. So if your parents knew you're into the Star Wars books. Exactly. They would just grab one. They'd be like, hey, it's a Star Wars book. And you wouldn't have the heart to tell them, this is the middle part of a new series that I don't have part one on. Exactly. And like, I didn't have, you know, I had the internet off.

and on, I guess. Like, the internet was not a thing I had on my phone in my pocket and I could like look up a thing I wanted, you know, until high school when I had a computer in my room. And at that point, I was not off Star Wars, but I wasn't like reading my Star Wars novels so much at that point because I was like a little elitist pretender. And so, you know, in between there, I read this and maybe the next one. I don't know that I finished all three. And, but what I did do is become the person who would, like, go to the borders of the Barnes & Noble with holiday money and, like, pick out one that sounded good, right? Which, of course, is how I end up going into all of those adjacent one-off books, the short fiction anthologies. We've talked

about tales from Java's Palace and Tales of the Bounty Hunters and the Boba Fett trilogy and all that stuff, which was also just like where I was in the fictional interest space, you know, and so I focused there, but definitely read this and definitely, I think, read Dark Force Rising the second one of these before. But what I don't remember, or what I didn't remember, because of how I came into it without knowing when anything came out, is how much of the EU legends is fucking in this book already. Like, all of the things that I thought were, not all of it, many of the later things, they are just here, you know, the, um, you Salarmy, how do you pronounce the name?

Salamiria. Salamiri. Salamiri. No, pronunciation is going to be a whole thing we're talking about. Oh, yeah. The Salamiri, I don't remember them being in this. I don't remember them being in the third chapter of this book. I thought that was like six books in before we started talking with that stuff.

But of course it's here because of Saboeth, whoever wrote, because of Jerus, or whatever we're going to pronounce his name. So, so yeah, really fun to come back to this and be like, oh, this is the blueprint of the EU in such a big way. Allie, did you have it, were you ever a novels person? Not really. And this is also so outside of my like time frame. I like, my Star Wars experience started with watching the prequels in theaters. Right.

And then I don't even think that I watched the original trilogy until like 2005, 2006. So I was not, you know, in on Thrawn when Throne was hot. Right. Um, and the, the novels that I've read are just sort of like things that I picked up while traveling here and there. Um, like there was the courtship of Princess Leia. There was, there was one of these covers, doesn't it? It has. It does. Yeah. Um, there was the medical books that I've mentioned here before. Um, but yeah, the, the, like, the EU, I don't, I mean, I don't know that you would call like Cotor or like the Mandalorian. in comics, EU stuff, but this is like a pond I have not touched yet in the Star Wars universe, so it's very fun to dig in. I'm posting just a collection of the books that I know I had and read because of the covers that they had here, which does include Court of Princess Leia.

And it's like, I know exactly where these are my mom's house right now. Do I remember what happens in them? No, because it has been. almost 30 years it's been 31 years since that first when I posted Jedi Search like I was a child when I first looked at that book

you know these are you have both the Barbara Hamlets wow yeah oh yeah oh yeah I came out this way for some reason Rob I don't know why you could say who could say what Planet of Twilight did to me yeah and that's that's something

so like Austin posted a gallery of like Planet of Twilight children of the Jedi one of the Black Fleet Crisis books by Michael Q. McDowell and Corsia Princess Leia. And that's the other thing is that immediately, much like we saw with, well, much like you see with anything with Star Wars, different creators go in these really different directions. And sometimes, like, to their credit, I think, Bantam would sometimes, like, commission sci-fi writers. Their deal was not necessarily the most genre Star Wars-y type stuff. Usually that was a misfire because you would see some, like, it would just feel like a mismatch of like, this is kind of a weird story.

It doesn't feel like Star Wars, but here are the characters. You know, you'd have, I think the one that stands out for me is like the Crystal Star was this, you know, it was this attempt to get into like the sci-fi paranormal in some ways. sure it's in in retrospect there's parts of it that remind me of um like consider phlevis uh just in terms like weirdness and like creepiness but like now imagine uh sorry who wrote player games and ian banks is that it yeah yeah you know banks like just imagine if ian banks just rolls up and it's like here's a star war story people would be like what the fuck and sometimes you would have that reaction too so you would have these really passionate, like, uh, arguments over like what felt right, who was, who was a good

Star Wars author, who was a bad one. Um, and I think part of it was also that Timothy Zahn proved to be a tough act to follow. These books are both in like delivery and the narrative form they take. Very Star Warsy, but also crucially. But, but, but, more, like more setting, more context building, a little more what you might consider like realism as we would regard it as opposed to the direction that Star Wars itself frequently goes. Yeah, I, I, you know, so I'm, I've been taking notes in one of my first, one of the big, like, my notes are just like inline notes in the text and then also, you know, just a list

of characters, a list of things, a list of places, then some big ideas. And it really feels like one of the biggest ideas that Zahn is pushing in this first section of this first book is like, hey man, it's not enough to be a Jedi. It's not enough. Like, I know you watch the movies where Luke's force, you know, acuity allowed him to blow up the Death Star and like the force empathy allowed him to reach his father. But you can't build a country. You can't build a galactic nation around one guy's force powers. It's the world is more grounded than that, even if the films didn't suggest that. And of course, that's before the prequels really blew up, like, what the force can do and what the Jedi are.

And, you know, there's a scene in this book where Luke has to be very cautious and, like, grapple gun his way down a few flights of stairs. It's like, all the top of a building. And it's like, if this was the prequels, they would have jumped off that damn building. It wouldn't have been a big deal, you know? like, and obviously you can you can rectify that by simply saying like, well, Luke doesn't didn't grow up in the Jedi temple and doesn't have the force in the same way, doesn't have the control of the force in the same way. But it's, it's very funny to think about this in relation to the rest of what Star Wars is now, because you're right, it is really grounded in material in

ways that I think what follows, even inside of some of the EU stuff, is explicitly not trying to be. The other thing, and we'll get to our summary here in one second, because I think this leads into some of the stuff we're going to be summarizing. Nobody knew what happened before Star Wars. Like, there was no, like, what the hell were the Clone Wars? And he wasn't allowed to say is a thing that I actually ran into. He's allowed to gesture, but one of Lucas is,

so Lucas had to be kind of like convinced to do these books at all, right? Bantam Spectra went to him and said, hey, we want to do big, ambitious event books, not just books for 17-year-old or 13-year-old fans, not just, hey, Luke had another adventure in between, you know, A and B or after this movie or whatever, not just kind of pulpy throwaway novels, but something that will bring a wide reading audience to Star Wars, the way that they came to the films. Lucas gets on board with it, but does say that there are some rules, and one of them is the prequels are his, you know, he eventually wants to tell the story about Little Anakin Skywalker and

Ben Kenobi, and that's a decade plus away at this point, but he basically says you're not allowed to totally fill in the gaps on what the Clone Wars were. That doesn't mean that Zahn doesn't gesture at them. He has to. They're the big war from before, from the end of the old Republic. And so, like you said, Rob, when we get into the summary, I think you'll probably be able to say a few things about what this version of the Clone Wars is. And also, I'm a fucking Clone Wars truther. These are my Clone Wars. I like this. This is good. I want more on this. I want, I just need to do a whole line of this being what the Clone Wars were. So we get into more exposed to Clone Wars stuff later, but this is a thing that I think probably

dogged Lucas a little bit. Zahn has a lot of good concepts here for like stuff that could happen in the Star Wars universe and like things that fit and don't fit. And because again, there's such a gap between Return of the Jedi and the prequels that the thirsty ass like Star Wars fandom really begins to get into the idea of maybe not all the Star Wars books. Some of them, like some even at the time was like, well, that didn't fucking happen. You know, it would just be like There's nowhere to go with this. But a lot of the stuff that Zambians filling in here, like, feels right. And it's like, oh, I didn't know that about, like, Senator Palpatine, things like that.

And when Lucas, like, brings out his own vision, parts of it are a little, little underwhelming. But I think some of it is just people have gotten really committed to the, some of the nods at a sense of history that exist in Star, that exist in this, in this. series that, you know, the prequel trilogy completely deviates from. And we start getting into that story of like, what is the history of, what is the history of Star Wars? What, what didn't we know about this universe? Kind of right at the start of Air to the Empire. Air to the Empire opens on our main point of view character in the imperial camp, Captain Pellion. You know, Having a, having his first, you know, reflecting deep in his reflections about the, the empire's embarrassed state, the fact that it's, the empire has broadly collapsed, lost a ton of territory, is still fighting a rearguard action. But we're five years on from Return of the Jedi, Battle of Endor.

And the empire has not gone away. They are still a formidable force. They are evenly gunned with the rebellion that has declared a new republic. but the tide of the war is flowing against the empire completely except that now emerging from the ether they are under a new commander

Grand Admiral Thron and the thing that sort of is immediately interesting about him is that he's an alien and it makes Pellion bit uneasy but he's like really cool alien he's got red eyes blue skin

and he's also anesthete as as we've seen, this is a thing that, uh, rebels has, as picked up. Thron is like, what if you could be really good at orientalism to the point where it was like your superpower. Mm-hmm. He studies art until he understands a species and then figures out whatever is their hard counter to their whole like species psychological makeup and he just exploits it.

Uh, he just, he just hacks to win, basically. He just psychologically hacks his opponents using knowledge of their species art. This is very funny to think about. You can imagine like Thrawn, like looking at like Picasso and then devotional art and being like, I got these people figured out. I mean, that's, are we, are you going to do a whole big summary here or do we just work through it? I think I mean I'm going back and forth on this okay like the broad outlines are that you know I'll just do a quick summary yeah do a summary let's do a summary the empire the empire still around yeah fighting rearguard action they are now under the command of grand admiral thron who we perceive because he's so smart we couldn't understand him we perceive him through our point of view character someone a little more relatable captain pallion a career good but unremarkable line officer in the imperial fleet, and Thron is planning to lead the empire to restore its lost glory.

He needs a couple things for that. Secret technology, the emperor has hidden in a secret base somewhere in the galaxy. But he's also concluded that the empire needs, well, maybe not the emperor, but it might need someone with Jedi powers to really supercharge the whole situation. He does need battle meditation. Exactly. He reveals that the reason the umpire kept winning battles was the emperor was really good at battle meditation. Would you might recall from our Cotor chapters or from, if you were listening to the bonus episodes during Cotor, the Old Republic, the tales of the Jedi comics that we read, which battle meditation was a huge part of.

So it's not called that here, to be clear. No, he just describes that he gets at the sense of the emperor's will was animated. all their fighting forces somehow. And when he died, they all sucked at war. Didn't matter how good their ships were. They were just crap. So he needs, so he, so he needs to go find himself a dark Jedi. And he needs all these imperial special projects that are in this hoard.

So, and I'm not going chronologically here, because the easiest way to talk about these books is not chapter by chapter. It's kind of arc by arc. Yeah, I think that makes sense. That's kind of how I listed my characters out too, Rob. So, yeah. like there are moments where like things just tie together and it will be you'll just kind of want to discuss them linearly but for the most part like with like a star wars film the characters separate and you cut between the stories and the stories don't like necessarily interact until the beginning until the end so throne and pelion go to a planet called wayland and discover that the dark Jedi they hope to meet the guardian of the emperor's secret storehouse but fucking dead. But he was killed by a different Dark Jedi. And now we introduce the pronunciation

problem. Yeah. Timothy Zahn. Good ideas guy. Not a great names guy. The names are wild. Yeah. Talencar would make them, like the person name's cool. Like they're fun. They're funny. I guess. Talen card is a Gundam name. Like there's a lot of anime ass. He do love his O-Cs. Yeah. I mean, this book is so filled with O-Cs. This is the most, the densest O-C book. And we read a book with, what's his face? The, the dude Jedi, the surfer Jedi. Yeah. It touches things and remembers things, Jedi. What is what's his name? Quinn Voss. Yeah, Quinn Voss, who is huge O-C energy. But Talen-Card. O-C energy in both senses the word. Yes. You're 100% sure. Talen-Card, the smuggler king,

K-A-R-R-D-E, that motherfucker is, I'm not, you know, I'm just saying that's the energy, that's the energy. He has fanfic energy. He has fanfic O-C energy and his like, and Mara Jade also huge fan-fick character energy. This is all pluses for me. This is all, you know, this is saying, trust your fanfic. You could be the next Timothy's on. Had Mar-A-Jade appeared in anything before? No. This is the introduction to Mar-Jade. Okay. Okay. Yeah. This is like truly, this is the thing.

Like, this is the beginning of what we think of as the primary legends canon. There are other books that were written between Star Wars and like Star Wars and New Hope and these books coming out. And some of them are things that we've talked about before. I think some of those Lando books had already happened at this point. Lando and Luke going on adventures the first time around, I want to say maybe. But like in terms of sets the stage for the time. line after Return of the Jedi, all of the big character relationships, Luke, Mara, the twins that Leah is pregnant with that become the cornerstones of like the next generation of the big

story that's going to unfold, the idea that there's things in the world that could stop the force or that could push the force back. All of that stuff, it's here. In 1991, this book is the beginning of what I grew up in in terms of the Star Wars EU, Rob, You grew up in it. And then, Allie, you're the kind of, like, coming in on stuff like Kotor is like the second wave of that. It's taken all of those ideas and it started to play with them and started telling back stories behind it, stuff. Like, you know, like the battle meditation that shows up in Kotor and the Tales of the Jedi comics are them responding to these ideas of the emperor being able to, you know, push those things out. Anyway, Rob, we're talking about names.

Yeah, so some of those names, cool. Yes. I like page. Page is a great name for a cool New Republic spy. Yeah. But then we meet, well, we meet Joris,

and then on the page it is rendered, C, apostrophe, B-A-O-T-H. Now, my friend, like my friend's brother called him Soboth, which did sound pretty good.

Soboth sounds great. J-R-S-B-B-R-S-B-B-O-B-B-B. That's not what's on the damn page. That's not. sounds like a good fucking dark Jedi. Yeah, I would still sow bath, S-O-B-O-T-H or something, though. Right. Is it Kabbalf?

That is certainly kind of how it is rendered, but what's the apostrophe? According to the essential guide to characters, it is pronounced Sabayath. No, what is it? S-A-emphasized, S-A, lower-case B-A-Y-O-T-H. Sabayath Sabayas Sorry But Bay is the emphasis

It's not No, you're right Sa is the emphasis Okay Sabaya Sabia Sabia Sabia

Sabia If you're going to do it That way It looks like Sabouth Or caboth But sabath I'm going to call

This motherfucker Jorous Well What do you mean Well. Here's the other most awesome. This is the awesome thing that he figures out. What could distinguish? Oh, sorry. Time out. Time out. I did misper. Okay. The essential guide of characters says, I didn't click through. I looked at, I looked at Google's stupid thing. And okay. The essential guide to character says sub-bayeth. And then Zahn says the thing I said before. So that's Zahn saying it. He pronounces it. Sabbaiof.

Sabiath. Sabiath. I hate this. Sabia. Sabia. I, I, I, I, but I like it more than cabalph. Hmm. I, yeah, I like it more than cabalth. I like Sabout.

I don't like sabath. Sabia. Maybe, let's just do it. Let's just get any of it. Saabia. Wow, I finally, I finally have a pronouncing. Sabia. Sabia.

Sabio. Joris Sabiof. Joris Sabiof. All right. It's going to be making the Cia. maybe that's just where he's from in the galaxy they wouldn't let him have that little french see character that says it's like got the s sound uh they were like sorry we don't do that type setting in bans right yeah um so the other thing so they meet they meet

joris sabayov killed the guardian he's a dark jedi yeah but he's pretty happy because he's basically a god king to this like backwater world that is just he's just sitting on this like trove imperial treasures but what he's all into is his definition of power is controlling people directly and when thron shows up being like we're getting the empire back together he's like what's that to me that's billions of people thousands of i don't care i've got all these little people living under my thumb so thron has a brainstorm here's the sales pitch the general have returned to the galaxy. Luke Skywalker and Leorogana Solo are out there,

but she's pregnant with twins. And Joris has, that is the one thing he doesn't have. What do you get to the Dark Jedi who has it all? Apprentices. See, this is what Ackleite. Ackleite even is in dialogue with this. They won't let me have apprentices. They won't let me have apprentices and I'm happy.

They won't let me have. This is for Dark Jedi. They won't let me have them, folks. Oh, I hate this. I hate the world we live in. I have to get off of this bit before I commit to it for the rest of my life. Sorry. I was destroyed the other day by the TikTok that was a sandworm doing Trump.

Arachas. Oh, good. It was incredibly good. But, yes, it is the problem. It is the problem is all of us. Little Leia. Little Princess Leia. Horrible Han, they're calling him.

They're calling him horrible Han. So, Thron promises, we will get you both the grown-ass Jedi and the twins, you'll be able to mold the next generation of force users, the only ones we know of in the universe. It doesn't matter what canon you're in. A Jedi wants to have a little apprentice that they can shape. That's truly the through line. A Jedi loves to steal an infant and then teach it the way that it believes.

This is some of the most compelling stuff here is like, is we'll talk about it more in-depth later. is like, what does a Jedi want or what does power look like for these two people? And it's changed for that. Sabayov is going to help out the empire by basically functioning as their battle meditator, the person imbuing their forces with will and more materially,

using the forces telepathic abilities to give them instant real-time communications, effectively. Palion has little misgivings. Sabayat seems a little out there, a little weird, but Thrawn's like, we got this. How are we going to capture the Jedi? Thrawn's got a solution to that too. We're introduced early on to his awesome bodyguard, Rook, who is a, okay, now when it comes to alien names,

places, sometimes Timothy Zanz, just like, here's a much continents. Uh-huh. He's a, he's a, he's a, he's a gregory, or no Nogri. Nogri. N-O-G-H-R-I, I believe. Either way, tiny, gray-skinned, Eldrish-looking motherfuckers who are the best commandos in the galaxy. I got to tell you. Tiny. I, this is the thing.

I know what a Nogri is. I know what a Nogri is. I don't think the descriptions of them in this book match up at all with how they have ever been depicted visually, except for the new version of them where I've seen images of them from rebels in episodes we have not seen yet

and I think it looks more like the ones here because the traditional version of them that I've seen they look like big space orcs they look like big fuck off like tough guys and they are like Rook is a tough guy but they don't look you know they keep being described in these scenes

as being like little gray men you know like almost like like graze or something. With a scary array of needle teeth. Yeah, but like look at how they're drawn. They're drawn like the predator, you know? Yeah. Whereas I, the version of them that is in rep.

But that's how they've always been depicted in the comics, Rob, for years and years. Very silly. In, in Rebels, this is what we're going to get, which I don't think, it's right. It's more like the thing that is being described in this book. But they have been. But not like. I mean, again, compared to the big gray monster men that we traditionally see. We're going to get, so look forward to our next episode on another aspect of Nogri physiology is introduced

that makes both these images kind of tough to square. Okay. This is the thing, like, Zahn's description of the Nogri is more impressionistic. It's like teeth and sinews. But I think it's actually kind of smart. Like it is, he doesn't break that down point by point. Like, here's what one of these things look like. What we know is they're slightly built, they're scary as hell, and they're incredibly capable.

Beyond that, like, it's a little bit vague. I found myself not really knowing what a lot of things looked like. A lot of people looked like while reading this. Like, do either of you know without looking what talent card looks like on the top of your head? It just, I don't know that there was... So I can't remember where I picked up the impression that has a dapper little beer. I bet that's right. Well, because he seems like a fancy crime guy.

He does. So you imagine in your head a fancy crime guy who likes wine. And maybe he says the word, maybe the word beard is here somewhere and I just don't know. I don't, I don't remember, maybe I just don't remember it. But no, card is very vague. Yeah, exactly. Mary Jay and I have some notes on. Oh, yeah.

This is the best time to admit that based off of the first description of Thron's assassin, my first note here is, Thron has a cat boy question mark It may as well be Anyway He's got a dangerous gang of cat boys Yeah That worked for him

And so he's gonna unleash These his personal commandos On this problem The problem of getting the Jedi for Yeah Sabiaath Sabaiath I like Sabiaf

Yeah whatever it's fine Whatever it's fine Yeah Joris Kabath I would also Look I'm not gonna police anyone If you've been like he's been Cabaut for me since I was a child.

It's like, then you know what? Maybe you're a clone. Maybe you're a clone. You just can't. Why the fuck would he say it that way? He's a clone. The telltale

mispronunciation. This, by the way, is where we're going to get, this is, if you ever hear people making jokes about Lou. That's this guy, Skywalker.

Because he's where it comes from. Because, Joris Sabeoff, Jedi master from pre-empir. Joruz Sabeoff. Uh, clone. Cologne. Cohn, seemingly a clone.

And that's the one who's here. The telltale mispronunciation. Yes. And that's so fucked up. Pellion's like, or whoever says like, it's a telltale mispronunciation. Why wouldn't you just use the name of the guy you're a clone of? They just can't do it. It's so funny.

Say that his name is Jeroos. Unless there's something in the clone programming that says if you're a clone of someone, you can't just have their exact name. like if there was a clone of me who wanted to kill me and replace me I think he could just go by Austin he wouldn't need to be ouston or Austin or Austin or something

you know what I mean that's why I was super confused but I was like not because I'm I mean I'm so Clone Wars felt like I have the Clone Wars filled in for me that when the reveal of like oh obviously he's a clone I was like why would you think that why would you not just think he was some

guy who was lying. Right. Because in this world, they're fucking clones of people. And also, they had only heard the words clone wars and thought, yeah, probably the Jedi were cloning themselves. Or something. Oh, well, we'll get to what the clone, like, it gets more explicit what was going on with the clone wars here.

This is our first, like, Joris's whole get down here is a little clue as to what may have gone wrong with the whole, let's clone people. Right. Let's check it out. Right. The line that gets said is, the story is that some of the Jedi went bad during the Clone Wars and really mangled things before they were stopped. And then also that there was, that something about the clones, like, they went a little crazy, basically, is what they say, right? The early clones, or at least those the fleet had faced, the old Republic fleet had faced, which again,

And that means like Old Republic versus clones. We've, there's no notion. The clones are part of the old. That's not what this is. They had been highly unstable, both mentally and emotionally, sometimes spectacularly so. So it seems like Zahn has in mind Blade Runner. Yeah, it's blade runner. It's, it's not quite the Star Trek, um, uh, what's the genetic war or whatever?

It's, what's the Star Trek, you know, similar type of thing. But like, yeah. Blaine Runner, clones have come to replace us, you know, invasion of the, of the body snatcher style pod people, like something, some sort of us versus mirrors of ourselves. And this is all stemming from Leah's hollow message to R2 where it's like during the Clone Wars. And so this is, this is Zahn that being like the fuck happened, like Clone Wars, they were probably fighting clones, which makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Clone Wars being the name of. the soldiers do you think that was Lucas's plan to begin with

and then this came out and he had to be like well no I wasn't asked not what I was going to do I was going to do something else in my version of it actually the clones the clones are on the old Republic side

actually it's different than what Don wrote did he not like you mentioned that like they had to come to him for approval did he not get like first refusal on a drafter or anything everything I was reading

was basically like George Lucas his life was an upheaval. And he was like done with Star Wars in a way. And he knew one day he wanted to do these prequels, like hands off. But he went through a big divorce. He left Return the Jedi. While Return the Jedi was still in theaters, he was like, I'm done making Star Wars forever because it broke me, basically. Like I put all this weight. I feel terrible. My wife left me, or my wife and I got a divorce. I don't know what actually happened there. And he's like, I want to spend some time like raising my daughter and like getting my life in order.

on all of that. So my impression is once he gave the go-ahead, and he gave some core rules, he didn't really stick to, like, guiding all of it. You know, Allie, a real good touchstone for this might be Tomino and Gundam, where it's like, you know how Tomino doesn't, Tomino's often like, oh, I don't watch any other Gundam except the stuff that I make. I don't know that George has ever been like, I just, I don't know.

I'm curious if George has ever talked about the Zon books. talked about zan I'm really curious if George has ever given an opinion and I bet he hasn't but maybe I'm misremembering so anyway so that is that is in the background that's the evil plan that's been hatched against our heroes and the new republic

when we check in on them a couple things happen immediately Ben Kenobi's taken off the board Luke at the opening of this book receives his final messages from Ben Kenobi who then goes off to be even more one with the force and so passes beyond his ability to to guide Luke

and Luke is also in his feelings about as Austin alluded to trying to figure out his place as the last of the Jedi the first of a new Jedi order but basically the only Jedi that he knows of and now working in that capacity for a rebellion that is inaugurated itself as the new republic and is also in the process of figuring out how to become a legitimate central government for the galaxy. So Luke is deeply worried about his place in the world and what he is supposed to do as a Jedi.

And that is especially pointed because, as we learn, Han and Lay are married and they are expecting twins. and those twins both are going to be force-sensitive. That is already, it is already, like, palpable that she is having force-sensitive twins, just like, just like Luke and Leo were. Mm-hmm. And it's going to fall to Luke to train them. Which, again, really fun and interesting extrapolations happening, based on what you know about the original trilogy.

Like, what Zahn knows about the original trilogy, it's like, I guess this. I guess powerful bloodline. Right? Like there were twins. There could be twins again. Maybe there was already. Maybe there was maybe Darth Vader had a twin. Maybe this has been happening forever. Who could say we don't know that? We don't have a clue. And so let me fill in the blanks how I can. Here we go again. Another pair of Skywalker siblings who are going to be forced sensitive, you know? As for the New Republic, it's a lot of like part of part of this book is there's a lot of frustrating work for our former. Our former heroes can't just run around doing whatever they want. They are, Han is going around trying to get smugglers to go legitimate and become freighter captains for the new republic. Leah is being sent to induct new planets into the new republicans on these missions that the first and then the second Nagri kidnapping attempts unfold, which indicate that there is someone leaking info somewhere in the imperial palace, someone connect close to the highest echelons of power in the new republic. public. We'll get into those in a moment. And so it isn't very long before they figure out that like Leah in particular is being is being hunted. These are these are kidnapping attempts

targeting, targeting Leah and to a lesser extent, Luke. And so when we sort of wrap up here, they are they're trying to figure out how to go to ground and let Leah continue to work remotely while being anywhere in the galaxy, just not where the New Republic thinks she is. And so when we leave off, they're going to check in with somebody who just might know the kind of scoundrels who can create a VPN

and get you on your Zoom call without people noticing, none other than Landau-Calrisian. I've skipped over the introduction of a ROC because this purpose is not really clear. Yeah. We meet, We meet Talancard as he is promoting his top lieutenant, Mara Jade, who just hates Luke Skywalker for some reason as his new second command.

And it's very insistent about what happened to Darth Vader and the emperor. She knows the truth. Shut up if you have all their ideas. And why does she, you know, don't worry about it. Don't ask me any questions about that. Let me just focus on being a criminal, okay? No one has ever been more obvious in the history of fiction, I think. What are you talking about?

She's so shrouded with mystery. Even her boss doesn't know what's up with her. It's one of his major goals to figure out why she's so cool. I just can't tell what's going on behind those emerald eyes of hers. They're always flashing. They're always flashing. So that's the other thing. Zahn has ticks, eyes, they love the flash.

They love to flash. But they also, the skin around them, it loves the titan. Titans. You're just often another world. Other ticks that I think are really funny. One, Touche, the word Touche gets used multiple times in this section of reading. Point. Yeah, point.

And like, Touche is a French word, and he don't care. That exists in Star Wars. You know what else exists? It's German because Talancard has a pair of pets named Serbundra. Dr. Which is like, what are we doing? it's good it's fine like it's so fun to be like oh they were fucking holding on a little loosely this is where i know lucas was not tuned in because lucas would have never allowed french or

german to just be directly used unless he was doing it a bit because he did it he'd be fine with it captain antilles wedge antilles like there's things like i think zan is like basically where was where was lucas drawing like some of the nomenclature from, and it's trying to do the same thing, but it is coming across a little more as, like, it's Sturm and Drong. It's just Sturm and Drong. You're not, this is not. I did, by the way, find the quote that I was remembering in 2005, Starlog magazine asked,

the Star Wars universe is so large in diversity, where find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and offshoots. And Lucas said, I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars encyclopedia.

So I come up with a name or something. I look it up and see if it's already been used. When I said other people could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that like Star Trek, we would have two universes, my universe and the other one. Then they try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible. But obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions. And so he very much has been like,

they have this cool, a whole other universe when he's feeling good about it. He's like, wow, it's amazing. There's all this other stuff. And then really at that heart of it, he's like, well, I make Star Wars, and they make their Star Wars. They may, I make the real Star Wars. I, you know, who knows if he actually has read stuff? I do love the idea that he had a little Wikipedia, a little private Wikipedia server

that was maintained for him, that he could, I mean, I think this is literally what, like, Pablo Hidalgo's job kind of had been as kind of the continuity director and the sort of quote unquote Keeper of the Holocron was managing all of this different continuity for years and providing the documents necessary to make sure that things didn't step on each other's toes directly or did it when Lucas

said it was cool to do that. So, so yeah. Quick aside about George Lucas, his life being an upheaval. Yeah. If you look up Marcia Lucas' Wikipedia, she did so

much. Yeah, dude, no. Like, Those movies are Marshall. But not just that, she was everybody's editor. Oh, like the only, the only reason she kind of got out of the game was, I think, part being kind of burned out. But also just she wanted to not work in. She wanted to go have a family in a quiet life. No, do you want to read off some of the things she was credited on besides? Alice doesn't live her anymore.

Uh-huh. Taxi driver. Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh, she edits all Lucas's stuff. Yeah. She knew what she was fucking doing. And certainly notoriously, like Star Wars, the first film, was a fucking mess until, like, it went through her edit. And so, like, the degree to which, like, she held this, she held this whole thing together.

Also, apparently gave some really critical editorial notes on Raiders of the Lost Ark. so like yeah she she was across a lot of stuff you know she got a very good settlement with the divorce 50 million dollars but not the billion he got from yeah yeah I was reading a quote from from her on the current on the sequel trilogy not positive anytime a paragraph starts

I like Kathleen I've always liked her oh hell yeah you know it's gonna The word eventually gets is Now that she's running Lucasfilm and making movies, it seems to me that Kathy Kennedy and J.J. Abrams don't have a clue about Star Wars, and they don't get it. And J.J. Abrams is writing these stories. When I saw that movie

where they killed Han Solo, I was furious. I was furious when they killed Hans Solo. Absolutely positively. There was no rhyme or reason to it. I thought, you don't get the Jedi story. You don't get the magic of Star Wars. You're getting rid of Han Solo. Which, I don't lie in them killing Han Solo, but, you know, so.

Except I think it was like it was used to we'll get look not to burn pod for like three years but it was used to advance the arc of a character we'd not yet really know very much about or care about and then they were like let's bring on solo back as a vision later right

like it's it's a sloppy it's a sloppy trilogy sorry I was not defending the way things were done I just I will never say it's verboten to kill a character unless I'm being paid on contract to write something where the IP owner says

This is the job. The job is to write a story about this person not dying. And then I won't kill them, I guess. But, you know. Yeah. No, I'm with you. But I do think, like, her just being like, I don't think they really, I don't think this is, well, they get it.

Yeah. Broadly. I agree. Yeah. Anyway. So, let's get into the nitty gritty. Please. Sorry, what's up with Talon Card and Mara Jade?

Once a promoter looks for opportunities. That's the high level, right? Is the biggest. Looking for it was a Salomery. Right. And also has filled the gap of Java. That's the other big one. We learned through Han's story that Talancard, a guy who was like a bit no-name smuggler when

Han was in the game has become the number one guy in town with the biggest, most active organization. That's the three line there. Yeah. And yeah, helps out Thrawn to kind of get some info, and that's all we know. So, yeah. So the opening with Pallion, it's a load-bearing sequence. Oh, yeah.

who fill in those those five years um it's interesting to me like this is the degree to which immediately one of the things that zan gets into is this notion that the fleet is an institution that goes along with the new republic that the old republic like that it is an old military institution the empire is the thing that took over the government and made the fleet a core part of it, but that the fleet and the empire, not one to one. It's a bit of a, not quite a clean Vermacht type situation, but it's drawing from that, right? That like dictatorships rise, even military dictatorships rise, and they are still a break from what might still be a military or authoritarian tradition, but are still a break from the way things have generally

been done. Pelion kind of instantiates that, and his, in his reflections on it, one thing's he goes into is the thing that really pissed the fleet off was that the one, the Death Star sucked, and it wasn't a big battleship, it was a death star, and the fleet wasn't down with that. It appeared to be the Emperor

centralizing control, which, true. But also, that the second one killed the executor when it went up, and with it, a ton of their best officers. I love that note. The institution of

the Imperial Officer Corps, the best and brightest were all aboard Vader's Super Star Destroyer, and when it gets Scott and Endor, there goes basically everyone they would need to pick up the pieces. Yeah, it's like the whole draft class got torched, right? Like all the best and brightest, not just a stab, you know, presumably you already have other admirals and captains out there, but the next generation of great admirals and captains were probably on that ship or at least part of that big battle and died there. And I love the note very early on in this chapter and the first part of the book of like the remains of the empire, the kind of the people who are serving on this ship and throughout are actually really young.

And it's a mix of the young survivors who were not super talented in part of that big battle or people who have been brought on board either through enthusiasm or coercion, which is a really interesting note. And I think that's like so far that I think this book is at its best when it's talking about those things and it's like filling in those details. And obviously those are our juicy, our very juicy meals here to be like, ooh, what's up with the world? And I think that that stuff is really, really sharp. It's interesting, too, like, it's easy because Pelion is often in a subordinate position to Thron. He's often like Watson to Holmes's, to Thron's homes. But Pelion's an old man. Uh, you know, in the opening chapter, he's, he's been in the neighborhood for 50 years as he dresses down Lieutenant Tishel for shouting info information across the bridge. Uh, we get, we get this impression of Pelion is like a, you know, a bit of a martinet, but mostly it is just, he's still in the, he's still in the fleet at a time when he probably should have been retired. Uh, and now he's surrounded by kids who don't really, they don't really know how to do this. Who yelled down the hallway instead of come and give a salute and tell them, you know, do the report in, which is very funny. And it's really fun to see him immediately go into like, onto his back foot a little bit as he goes to talk to Thron. Thrawn in his secondary bridge slash art museum, his hollow art museum. He's built on the ship, the chimera, his own little private, you know, court.

He's taken, actually, what he's done is he's taken. over the previous commander's room, right? Because the previous commander had a, what was it, what was he doing in there? I forget what he says it was. It's very funny. God, I don't remember. Something, something very, like, shitty. Wasn't just a secondary bridge?

Hmm? Wasn't just a secondary bridge? I highlighted it. It's an entertainment suite. Right. It had been an entertainment suite for the previous, for the previous. one yes exactly and Theron came in and was like uh no this is my secondary bridge slash art museum and this kind of like an entertainment speed if you really

think about it it's only only a Philistine would think of it that way you need to understand I need the surround sound and the the Macs subscription because when I watch the Sopranos I'm really learning about the Italian American community and how to go to war against them uh you just wouldn't understand thron installing those gallery TVs all over the room yeah exactly it's for art thron watching k dramas while uh you know drawing up an invasion plan of the peninsula hmm crash landed on you such a divided people this is this is him this is who he is it is it is very funny

the degree to which we get our first taste of he wins a battle for us in the intro because the empire has been due you know they've already conducted the little sending ships in to basically pull documents off the internet and to get the secret info that Thrawn's been after but they've been chased by

New Republic Task Force and Thrawn does a quick little let's have our sentry ships attack and from that he deduces that Eloman is in charge of that task force and the Eloman mind cannot comprehend

a well executed Marg Sable maneuver apparently a pretty basic imperial imperial fleet maneuver with starfighters but it just demolishes the New Republic forces

because the Eloman doesn't know what to do with its irregularity so strange the alone in mind it's it's a little much you know so I was like

here I think is the clever thing about it the empire is this one expression of just like naked imperialism it's all very British it's ruthless it's all it's all violence

it's racist as hell yes Thron represents the Orientalist tradition of the same empires that like have people who go out there and like the world the universe is a fascinating place full of different cultures and people and it behooves us to understand them because they're fascinating they're interesting they are there to be governed by us but nevertheless we should respect and like take an interest in their ways but their ways

are different from ours. Right. And define what concepts and abilities they can even have in the world. These are things in the ways in which they are not like us. And there are certain things that they will just never understand

because culturally it is just sealed off from their understanding. But it's a very funny, like, the empire is all ruthless, have no curiosity. It's all like no non-humans. Like all straightforward, like racial hierarchy. If Dron comes in, I'm into this for power, and yes, like, that Aldani shit would not have happened if Dron was there, right?

Right. Throne would have seen that shit coming somehow, right? When I said the Adani shit, I don't mean the, the occupation and exploitation of the people. That would have been. He still would have done that. Perfectly. That would have happened to better for them, for, for, for, for, the empire than it was without him there, what wouldn't have happened is someone being able to do a heist under cover of it.

You know, he would have smelled that out somehow because of this, right? We must be on a high alert during the Isle of Aldani. Exactly, exactly. You know, I think there was something there, Rob, and I think two thoughts come to mind. One is, I really love it. And this, you couldn't have loved then. You could only love it now as an extension of the same impulse in Obi-Wan Kenobi throughout the Clone Wars, where, like, how often is Obi-Wan?

the one who has that, you know, that orientalist perspective of these different cultures and often is trying to push back Anakin from, like, drawing his lightsaber so we can like talk to them about whatever. But it is that same, oh, it's so curious how these people do things, isn't it? And so I love that through line of an impulse inside of the Republic slash empire. And then I do think that the thing that grounds it and the thing that makes it fascinating from a character logical perspective, is Thron, through these first ten chapters, at least, is really positioned against, let's say, Luke and Leia in a bunch of different ways. Not a human and a human-centric galaxy, and not destined, not blooded, not of some great

force, you know, written plot, you know, for the future of all time. is not like part of the destiny of the galaxy, the way the Skywalker's are. And so there is a sort of something through him that is, you know, I don't know that he would describe himself as meritocratic, right? But I think that he is positioned as a character who has been in a system and a government and a military that he's probably had to climb a lot of ladders to that other people haven't had to as a chis, as an alien. We get a lot of this through Pelion's own, you know, fear and even awe at Thron. And we, there's a sort of interesting through line there that, like,

he is the alien who also wants to instrumentalize his under, he knows that there's differences culturally between people. He's not from here. He is not from Corrason. He is from a different people. And then he wants to exploit that in some interesting way, right? And towards the end of that same empire that would other even him. And at the same time, we do start to learn, is this chapter that we learn what he was doing, what, during the, like, for the emperor? Or it's later. That's when we learn about Joris, actually, right? We learn about him being a warlord in this chapter, I think.

Yes, he gets the warlord title in this chapter, which is fun. But later we learned that he was working for Palpatine doing kind of stuff in the dark, you know, that other people were not specifically. stuff around the Jedi at the final days of the old republic dealing with Jedi that the emperor thought were dangerous right? Before he could

openly just start hunting them just having them disappear so yes we learned later the reason he knows Joris Sabayov is not the real articles because that guy disappeared on a mission and Thrawn made that

disappearance happen. Right. exactly yeah thron raised his eyebrows because i was that the force's commander even at that early date the emperor recognized that the jedi had to be exterminated six jedi masters aboard the same ship was too good an opportunity to pass up so lots to think about with thron here very fun to see this in relation to our introduction of thron in rebels similar enter into the art room. And I think a little softer peddled in a little less, there's a little less direct relation to like evolutionary psychology in rebels than here, right? Because in rebels, it's like I'm getting to learn who these individual people are through the art that they make

in the case of Sabine. Sabine. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And it's complicated because like that art I also associate with Satin because it's the Mandalorian art around. And, are that they were around their whole lives, et cetera, versus here there is a real, you know, he doesn't get all the way to like genetic, you know, the genetic makeup of this species. But there is a sort of like, they make the sort of art they make because they are the way they are. And therefore, I get access to essence by way of art. And they can't escape essence.

And I will say, like, one of my big hopes for this is he has to be wrong at some point, right? That's the thing. He has to be surprised. At some point, this has to fail him in order for it to cash out in, like, a way that sells the whole picture of it. And I suspect it will. Don't spoil it for us. It's, you know, anyway. So with the destruction of the task force, he's gotten the trail of breadcrumbs that lead him to Wayland, where he's going to find the dark.

the Dark Jedi guarding the place And he's going to find some important info and equipment the emperor left behind when they get there is this backwater world seems deserted

in no time at all they're sort of attacked they start calling out to see like where's that guardian at? Show us the guardian of the mountain and somebody somebody on the planet takes a pot shot at them and Rook

The book is like this is the coolest thing ever He's like Rook deal with it basically And it's like Rook is so efficient From what he describes though Rook spends the next like 10 minutes Blasting a three store building apart with a pistol Yeah It is the most

It's just incredible It's just incredible You don't think that's cool and efficient? The Barksdale crew If only they thought about the tracks This is like you're playing Mindcraft Blat, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, uh-huh. It's so goofy. You know, they just give him a bazooka, man. You know, like give him, let him do something. But he's a little guy. He's using that no green precision.

They just shoot the shit out of a house until it falls the fuck over. It's extremely cool. Ron is cool, and I don't know what's wrong. What's important to know is that he, also at this point, he does have his, like, force puppy on his shoulder. Right, because he's right. We skipped this, but, yeah, he went to a different planet and got help from Talancard's

crew. We're just going to call it the planet Merker. I'm not, I don't know. R-K-R, is that what it is? Yeah, that's fine. Merker. And also, Wayland, by the way, is not spelled like Wayland-E-T-N-E-N-D. It's just W-A-Y-L-L-N-D for the record, for people listening who are not.

read. But yeah, he has his Ysalaram. Yeah, Ysalamir. Yeah, Yassalimiri. When I see it, I can do it, but it's not in here. It's not in here. Because I've only read the words out, you know, and not said to them out yet out loud. Not a big, fuzzy snakes, right? That's kind of a description. They have legs though. Because they have claws.

But they have claws. But they have claws that go into a branch. And they get, as you may have read, sessile, twice. The word sessile gets used twice in a row. They, like, become completely, they stand completely still because they're in the branches of these trees. But, yeah, snake dogs, so lizard dogs, which, again, none of the art shows them as furry. It's all just big lizards. And it's like, the fur seems important, kind of.

He's a, he's a pains to emphasize how furry they are. Yeah. Like repeatedly. These things, they're furry. They smell. But. But they do push the force away. They do.

and this is revealed when Sabayov comes out, confronts them, says this, you know, this is my village, you know, anything,

anything that happens here is, is what I'm going to say is going to happen. And then he does the, and now you die. And he shoots the lightning, he goes bad shit and like tries to, tries to kill Thron Pellion. And when his lightning hits the bubble,

disappears. No more forest lightning. Oh, no. Damn. I have to say that there is a real thing that I'd forgotten here, which is they describe him as having the Salamere on a frame that it could stand on. And in my mind, it was being carried around on a frame, and it took me, like, looking it up to remember, oh, no, the definitive Thrawn picture is Thrawn or, like, image that gets reusing. It's a frame that he's wearing around his neck like a boa or something. And so the Salamiri is like a big, long, furry lizard cat that just hangs around Thron's neck whenever he's in the same room with this dark Jedi, whose name I've already forgot how we're saying it, Sabiaeth. Sabiof.

Yeah, the first time it appears I was imagining it as like a proton pack with like a creature inside of it. Same. So I was like, this is wild. And then it later, it mentions that, like, Sean is, you know, petting it while he's sitting at his chair. And I was like, oh, okay, so it's more of like a scarf thing now. But I. Yeah.

A warm, cozy friend. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. It's funny. A little nutrient frames. Yeah. Which crucially, I guess we can just dispense with talent card right here.

Crucially, because the scene where they go and get the salimary. Yeah. Because Thron is like, there's this interesting planet. the Jedi didn't want to fuck with what could that be about it's because the planet's overrun with these force deleting creatures and the Jedi were like nope if there's no if there's no force I'm not going anywhere near it but it's when the empire shows up there that that is also the cool jungle base of a talon card master smuggler who is promoting marjade so mysterious as as ali pointed out like he's supposed to figure out how'd she get

It's so awesome. He is down catastrophic for this girl. But he also knows she's so far out of his league. Oh, she's laid out this like banquet and she's like, is he, is this an HR issue? And he's like, he's not an HR issue. Right at the start. Not an HR issue. I just want to promote you.

I want you to be by my side all of the time. Yeah, but it's not. I'm not trying to hook up. would love it if we could we move in we can move in like not in any sort of way but like you know I just be more effective together yeah yeah like we were like we always had access to each other and also like two people can fit in a bed it's not a big deal we could save rent money by splitting the bed come on if you were by lieutenant you would understand the finances involved that would help us it won't get weird like there's all believe me there's always

in the salemerey in the bed. Even we wanted to couldn't get near each other because like they're bedhawks. No, no Salamary, she says. It's not mysterious. Don't worry about why. I just don't like them for mysterious reasons. Wait, he has a pet too, though.

Doesn't he? He has the Vornskirts. He has, yes, exactly, which are, what are those? Yeah. What the fuck are they, Rob? Big dogs. They're big dogs. They're big dogs with giant tails. But his don't have tails.

but his don't have tails well this comes up later okay okay okay okay no spoilers Vornskers All we know so far is that they eat scraps of meat Yeah and they hang out He's got big dogs And they're very cute

Oh I forgot something from From Did I forget something before I saw a note And I wanted to read it and then I've lost the notes You know it probably wasn't a big deal probably wasn't a big deal at all. But when Thron shows up to get the Salimiri immediately card is like, let's say hi and just let them know we're watching, keep an eye on them. I must know what they are up to.

And so he shows off that if Thron is a master of like just figuring out like, you know, this, this race, their whole essential deal is this, ergo, I use the Mark Sable. They're cooked. Talen Card is like, I'd love to get in. And I use deductive reasoning. The only mystery I can't solve is Mara Jade. But the thing I can't, the thing I can figure out right now is they must be for the Salamiri, the force repelling creatures, which makes a great deal of sense. He drops to Paliano over the phone that, like, he knows Thron's name.

And that is a thing the empire is trying to keep under wraps. They don't want to know what's under new management. And then Card sends his guys out to show the stormtroopers and the other imperial officials like here's how you safely get in the salamary out of a tree so they do the whole zoo keeper thing. Yeah.

Why not? Yeah. Anyway, it is genuinely fun to have some OCs here. Like, it is one of the joys of the EU is like, what weird freak are we going to get to meet today? And I will say that I don't think

that that's a thing that has translated over to the shows we've watched the main series, the clone or rebels, it's pretty rare that a primary character catches our interest outside, or sorry, a primary character in like a one-off thing specifically, or in one arc. You know, like Charlie, whatever the, Prince Char Char Char, whatever the fuck his name was, like, does not hang in the same way, right? New of Indy, rare example of someone who hangs, rare win.

But he's a villain, and villains kind of get a boost on that front, on the mind. the week style, you know, procedural show. But there's not like a, we don't often have like a cool news. Like, you know, those kids just showed up in rebels. The three kids who run their spaceship. It's part of the, like, whatever the commander's nephew, I forget what his name even is. But like those kids don't hang. They're not, I'm not excited to turn the page and see them more.

But yeah, Talancar, let's see what your deal is, bud. Like, it's fun to have some of these characters. I feel like the only like Clone Wars era character that we. have on that level is Barrie? I always get her name wrong. The Jedi Who'd betrays. Barris Offey. Baris Offie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not Barri Weiss.

Barry Weiss. I always want to say that. Baris off. Yeah, Barris makes the cut. Um, there is Quinlan does not make the cut, unfortunately. Some of the rookies in rookies and like throughout the core crew of clones, fives and them obviously do. But they're so central in a different way than the sort of like, ooh, who's the weirdo in this new book,

you know? But yeah, I'm having fun with them. I mean, Zahn is convinced his, his OC can carry major arcs in this book. We'll see if he's right. We will see. But, but here we just, we get a little introduction to him. And I think we'll get to the Han stuff in a second. I think one reason he introduces

talent card is that I think he wisely chooses. He wisely says, like, Lando and Han much as they might like to are not going to be able to just go back to being smugglers and con men, card sharps, they can't do it. There's no going back.

They're galactic heroes. And that is going, they're too notable. And in Han's position in particular, he is now a political spouse. And so his smuggling days, it's all in the past. Like Han Solo hurdling toward midlife crisis.

but he's not there yet. So, like, Talancard, I think, is there also to be, like, we do like smugglers, though. Smugglers are fun. It was fun to think of, like, there being the shadowy underworld with all these weirdos hanging out and, like, bombing around Java's Palace, you know, looking for scraps. And so Talancard is sort of our entry, lets the story keep a foot in the world of scoundrels because that has no longer the world that, Han, Leia, Luke, Lando. That is not their world anymore. I also like how casual the like seedy underworld and the evil empire stuff.

Like that relationship stays. Like we have a very brief, you know, interaction between card and thron. But they like sort of get each other's vibe. They have a deal. It works. And then we just cut to the next seat. Like we don't spend any time with even the Thron card guys. interaction we just cut to another scene and the puppy is there like we assume that you know

card was able to do the thing that he said he would and you know hopefully later in the book they like you know there's more deal making to make or whatever yeah but like the the idea that like it's just assumed that they would be able to shake hands is really fun it's business like yeah it echoes like um the bounty hunter scene from empire right where it's like yeah sometimes the empire deals with smugglers and scounders and scounder Controls and bounty hunters and like the underbelly of the galaxy to get something done. It's not, this is not a new thing, right? This is part of daily business, daily operations.

And as long as everybody involved is professional about it, we get to move, you know. Doubly so because one of the things that we learn about the empire is they care about money right now. They are broke. They are looking for money. They are looking for friends. It's one of the ways the empire gets characterized here. So, of course, this is an opportunity where free help is going to show up. Yeah, we'll take it.

which is also a big departure like yep the empires had to come down off their high horse Pelion is absolutely we don't need their scum type of guy now Vader felt he was like

I love bounty hunters they're so useful but the empire you know the impression what I was get is back in the day they find a smuggler they're arresting him

they're executing him now it's basically open tolerance right the card is like hey I'm telling card I'm a smuggler who Run this planet effectively and Pelion's like neat nice to meet you and that's nothing you can do about the empire can't afford now the pretense that the black market trade isn't helping them in in some in some fashion back to really quick just one other thing I want to

hit here because I think this is a through line and related to the thing I said before we get Talon opining about the existence or non-existence of luck and a see that is very meant, I think very clearly meant to suggest that Mara Jade has some forced stuff going on. I mean, the fact that she's been with the crew for six months and has like skyrocketed to being the most important person in the room all the time. She seems like she can always intuit the needs of the people around her and knows when someone's going to betray you or knows when someone's untrustworthy. And she's like a great pilot and she gives orders great. She just does everything. This is like so good, you guys. she says, I've always just been lucky. And talent says, I don't believe in luck, basically. Luck is, luck is part of it. But in my experience, talent and opportunity. Talent and opportunity, right?

And I think for me, this, again, one of the big ideas that's being positioned here. And I think as we're about to go to Luke and co in a second, this is valuable to think about it, is, you know, that idea again, here is Thrawn, someone who is not emboldened by the force, is not part of some grand. saga or tied to some great, you know, I mean, I guess the sort of chosen one prophecy does not exist in the canon at this point, which is so funny to think about. But it's not, there's not that sort of figure. And then you have, and then you've Luke, who is that? And you've Leia, who is that? This great bloodline of power and destiny. And Talon, talking about luck, feels like it's figured in there, right? Like, what makes success happen? Who can, who can change the world? Is it the destined? Is it the lucky? Is it the talented who strike when the iron

is hot? Who is it? And so one of the reasons I really like this character being here is, like you said, Rob, you can't have Han kind of take that position anymore, the person who doesn't see the world through government or through the force. You need someone who can be like, ah, I think you've got to get a little lucky, but mostly you got to be talented and strike, you know, when there's an opportunity. We need that voice on the page to kind of complete that spectrum of positions. And Talon so far seems good at it So So hopping back to Wayland for a minute

Because when Thron makes his pitch So the first thing is like Sabayov is fascinated by like Damn like these is howlemere shut me down And now he's willing to parlay with them And he's willing to say like go to the mountain I don't care just take what you need Like just leave me alone

Let me enjoy my planet But Throne wants him to come And be the central animating spirit Of their warfare And this is where he reveals to pass On his theory of why they got rolled, despite still having a material advantage after Endor, why did the whole thing go belly up immediately? And he just kind of brutally unloads on Pelion where he explains like, hey, did it ever occur to you that y'all just start sucking at war like the second the emperor was dead? How do you explain how do you explain all the shit that went wrong in the final minutes of the battle of Endor?

Now we know, that's just movie magic. But Dron is trying to get at it with like, hey, why didn't those tie fighters shoot the falcon down? Like, why couldn't, why did everything just go wrong? And his theory is, he says, none of you had any fighting spirit of your own anymore. The emperor had taken over all of it. And when he died, you had nothing left. And Pellion tries to defend. We fought on.

And Thron's like, you fought on like cadets, which is one of those brutal put-downs. Just crushes him. Nothing good happened while I was gone. Like nothing, nothing good has happened in this empire in the time I've been gone. You're lost without me. And we're all lost unless we get us a dark Jedi.

Uh-huh. So he wants Sabayov to join up and imbue the forces with that well. And it introduces, I think, an interesting, a thing's going to come up is like, what's power? What does power mean different people? And I think this is also Zahn trying to wrestle with like what's in it for the emperor

Because this is still something. I think if this is core to why I like this version of the EU So much of the Sith stuff is like they just love doing evil shit. They're just like they're out there to fight the Jedi They just want to they just they just want to like unleash evil and chaos in the galaxy and then they get tamped down then they go underground then they want to bring it back. Here, you have Thron who sees power as like, it is a political thing to be wielded. It is hard. It is military power. It is authority. It is the ability to govern and rule a galaxy.

More of that. And Sabeoff replies, what's that to me? Because power is personal. Power is the ability to control lives. Shape them, mold them, intervene. If you can't see the people you're controlling, what does it mean to you? Who cares about how many people? planets you govern if you never visit them.

And I think that is a, that is a question. Like what I think Palpatine, as we've discussed, is kind of a weird figure to have at the heart of the empire. Why is this dude sitting there being like, yes, my young apprentice? Why is he doing this? Why are you arguing with a 25-year-old? Right. In front of the debt.

The conception of powers is different, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think this stuff is all really fascinating. And it isn't just this first chapter. It kind of runs through their conversation. throughout the rest of the section, because, like you said, for Thron, power is administrative, power is policy-driven. Power is how you deploy people. Power is how you manage what they're allowed to do and not allowed to do in a broad bureaucratic way. And power is the ability

to destroy something, right? I think he very fundamentally is like, I have power because I can blow up your whole village or your whole town or your whole mountain. Fuck it. That's power. to me, and that's a power worth having because I can leverage that power to get different, to get more power, to get more control. And it really feels like for Sabiaf power is the ability to compel obedience, and specifically the sense of like what he might think of as being voluntary obedience. He's very pleased that he has a town of people who seemingly worship him, but also fundamentally listen to what he says, you know, lets him decide.

what's best for them on a day-to-day personal level and wants the apprentices for that reason, to shape them into the version of them that he wishes that they could be. And he values that way more, even if it's smaller, right? The idea of getting two Jedi apprentices or four Jedi apprentices means so much more to him than being able to, like, run a planet or run a sector of the galaxy. He's just not compelled by that. And I think that that's interesting in a couple of different ways because it's, you know, one of them is sort of power over. Thrawn kind of is all four power over and kind of power to of life and death and power of, you know, the power of just raw force. And not that it's not that there's nothing finesse driven there, but even finesse as force, right? Whereas it feels like Sabayath is more interested in. in this other type of biopolitical power of like, I'm going to shape how you live.

I'm not going to, it's not just live or die. I could kill people. Of course, I could kill people. But I'm going to be the person who decides how you live, what your life is like, how you want to live. I want you to listen to me and shape yourself into a version of yourself that I approve of. And that does feel like a difference between the empire, the imperial power desire and the Sith power desire pretty well maintained.

in a really interesting way. So, yeah, without enjoying it, like, particularly Scythe. Again, it's like, for, for Zahn, it's like a dark Jedi thing. They're different. I think you zoom in on it and it still gets a little silly, but it's like, there are silly, there are people who have. Sorry, I mean, Scyth. Sorry, no, I said, I said silly. I'm saying, I'm saying Sithy is silly.

I'm saying even this, I'm saying they're both, this isn't mad, cackling dark Jedi, Palpatine stuff, but it is still that thing of like, I do still have a little bit of the, like, well, why would you care about this? And the answer is because some people are just motivated that way. Some people don't want to be the governor. They want to be the school teacher who is like the little petty tyrant of the school district, you know, or many of them don't even want to teach. They just want to run the district. They want to be in some sort of supervisory role, right? Shoutouts to people who do that job well. But fuck off if you're doing it to be a little Napoleon about it, you know?

So, anyway, yeah, like all this stuff. Yeah, and the hook that's baited is you, we'll get you, we'll deliver you Jedi. But in the meantime, you have to come work with us on military stuff. And so we get a taste of the, where we leave off with the empire here is they put into practice, can Sabayov help them coordinate their forces? And can he help them, like, fight better? do war better. The answer is resounding yes.

Pallion a little bit of an analytics guy, it turns out. He's got he's got like advanced stats about how the empire's been fighting for the last few years. And boy like there's a statistical deviation

once Sabiaf is in the picture and like holy shit. Like suddenly like way better outcomes like the DVOA off the charts. How do you say five 38 and Orabesh. How do you? But, and I'm curious, like, one of the things that comes through the final scene that we have

with the empire here is that Pelion begins to, on the one hand, he holds Sabeoff in, like, awe of, like, the guy is dangerous, he's incredibly powerful. Yeah, I mean, we should be clear. He's, like, communicating with two other, three other ships, units in other parts of the nearby, but other parts of the galaxy, like out of the system, while he's also doing the battle meditation for the fight happening here. That's, you know, if you've only ever seen Darth Vader at a distance, and Darth Vader didn't do this stuff, and you didn't realize the emperor was maybe doing some of this, then you should have no, it's wild stuff, you know.

but also he means notice that like Sabayov is an old man like he strains with this stuff he is distractible he is still he gets cranky Thron keeps needling him and there's something

I'm there's something here where there's a little bit of I guess what I'm curious about is there a bit of like a king lear aspect to sabayoff that we start getting here that that what pelion sees is an incredibly powerful but also like an old man uh with you know in in some ways has declined uh that he's sort of got a capriciousness uh forgetfulness about him uh and he's also just kind of he's a man from another world another time that he doesn't that drawn is instrumentalizing

this old, this weird old hermit he found. But like, it's an Encino man situation. The guy sat out the entire war. He doesn't, none of this means anything to him. And I think Pallion like starts to pick up that too, where like he sees that Sabayov is enormously powerful and useful. But also that Thron just to use him as a tool and not as a person.

And that's, I don't know, just, I'm curious if you started pick up anything on like, There being something here with Sabayov's, like, age or just like general demeanor about, like, elderhood, uh, you know, versus the people, like when it is people's time to move up. One of this time to, time to say, like, time for you to, time for you to get gone, old man. Time for you to take the back seat. Yeah, I think there's vibes of that. I also think that that's potentially part of why we're seeing Sabayath focus on the apprentice stuff to some degree is like,

youth has left me. How do I continue to make a mark on the world? Oh, make more. Make more of my type of presence in the galaxy. And I also think Pelyon, I mean, I will say one of the things that I think is interesting here is how this stuff with Sabayath really changes how Thrawn feels compared to how we see him in Rebels. Rebels Thrawn does not have any sort of rival on screen in any of the episodes we've seen. He has people that he is so clearly like above in terms of authority and sharper than in terms of strategic thinking and people who he's like clearly kind of aiming to get rid of and people he's trying to use.

But there's no one like Sabayath who at least for a little while seems like they're able to keep up with him and even push back on the way he sees the world. And so I think having that figure is interesting for Thron because it's part of what lets us inhabit Thrawn as one of the the Deuteragonists of the book even though clearly the villain here like this is we open on

on Pellion's perspective but this is clearly a story about Thrawn the book is called Air to an Empire Air to the Empire and so I think that that's already interesting and so then adding that little extra edge of this guy is from an era

that is passing all this dark Jedi shit it's useful, but we can't build around it, right? It's kind of a fun angle to give our first true rival for Thrawn, the person who seems untrustable. You know, Pellion, I don't think, comes across as a guy who had stabbed Thron in the back. If the ship is going down, Pellion's going to go down with the ship, right, at this point, at least. Whereas it feels like Sabyath feels like someone who, if there's an opportunity to, if that, if that Salimiri gets loose, this is all different. You know what I mean? If there's a, if it's not right around Thron's neck, then Sabriot's

hands are going to be around Thron's neck. And I think some of the age kind of emphasizes that. There's, there is a sense of like, Sabiaf acting from a position of if not now, then when. And that's part of how Thron is able to, I think, bring him on board is like, you're just going to stay here until you die, old man. You know, you're going to stay in this little village until it's all over. We'll see. So, yeah, I see some of that. And I'm curious to see how it develops and do my best to push aside the vague memories I have of where we're going with him.

I do really love Pelyon as the sort of audience stand in here because he does really get to be the person who like notices how tense the leash is getting. and like as as there's like the ebbs and flows through Sabian and Thron's relationship is is very fascinating through his perspective both in the ways that we've mentioned in terms of like he knows the history of the empire and can think about it in all of these terms but also in the terms of just like Thron is mismanaging this like Thron like not complete I think you know Pelion comes around on You know, even in the battle scene, he's like, oh, this Jedi guy is so good that, like, any argument I had against Thrawn's shit is completely wrong. Like, I am disproven this first time. But I do think that, like, you know, we skipped over it a little bit, but there's also a scene with Sabath and Thron where he's just like, I could get Luke Skywalker. Like, I could just reach out to him myself with the force that I don't really need you.

And Pelion has to jump in and be like, no, no, no, no, we can, we can get. figure it out. I love that beat. Because what they decided to do is like, they're going back and forth at like ways to do it. And Taliana's like, well, we could do a little bit of both, right? We could let you be the mysterious Jedi on a weird planet somewhere. And, and then we could put out rumors that there's a weird Jedi on a planet somewhere. Which is the best plan. It's a great plan. Yeah. And like, just like his, he, that he gets to be like the third point in the triangle here and like you know he he theoretically should have a position of authority over thron like um age wise he should um so to like i i don't know i really enjoy do we wait do we know

pelion is older because i don't really know that i know how old thron is pelion's definitely like the imperial veteran oh that's a good point i guess i like we know he's been in the navy for 50 years pelion yeah to be clear like that's wild military careers at the outside end of 40. This guy is like 10 years past expiration. So, like, so yeah, you know, who knows how long a Chis lives, but like Pellion is, yeah, you know, say it's like the Royal Navy, you start. And we don't know when the Clone Wars were, except I guess we know Anakin and Obi-Wan fought in them. We know that Luke is 18 at the beginning of the series or whatever, 18 or 19 or whatever. So it would have still been about 20 years before is when the Clone Wars happened, I guess.

So Pallion would have Would have seen that shit We time out we don't know in this in this canon I'll talk about my head When Luke wound up with Aunt Baru And no uncle Lars right But we know he didn't know anything about us Like so we do know that for 20 years he was on Tatooine

With nothing happening with nothing happening Yeah so that is like That's 25 years from when this book is hat like taking place Yeah So that's 25 more years Pallion's in uniform Yeah At some point there's the Clone War that Obi-Wan fought in.

Yes. So, like, Pelion probably has seen some shit, but they don't get into it. Yeah, but also we know, right, yeah. We don't know. I think I just, like, sort of, like, you know, assume in that Thron is, like, younger because of his, like, you know, bishy, like...

He's got new-man energy, though. He's got, like, the rapidly rising, like, he is the... He's the Wunderkind, and Pallion is just, like, you're, like, the guy who works in the same company for 50 years. Right, right, right. But what we also know from just this section is that Thron has been, had been the emperor's

little, he had his ship, he had his crew. He was off doing dirt for the emperor. Also 30 some years ago. Also was 30 some years ago. And maybe in a way that's like, it feels a little bit like the emperor had Thron off over there as this great genius because he wasn't going to, you're not going to, you're not going to, you're not, you're going to, yeah, you can be the warlord. I'll give you the warlord title. You'll be the guy who he's heard of, but you're not going to be near the death star. We're not putting you

in Coruscant, right? Like, we're going to keep you in the unknown regions. You could be the warlord of the unknown regions or what the fuck ever. And that's, you're going to be a little out of sight, you know, as our big blue alien commander, you know? Yeah, the, the book even implies as much that, like, the emperor had him dealing with savage planets to bring them into the empire because he didn't want the alien close to his actual, like, you know, center of power. Fucked up, emperor. But, and also Thrawn.

Come on. But I do like, yes, like, Pallion's a fun point of view character. I think as I've gotten older, I've enjoyed him more. Like, in the past, it's like, yeah, he's, he's, he's, like, dumbass, uh, like, less capable assistant. But here, like, I, reading it now, it's like, oh, Pellion notices, you. interpersonal dynamics in a way that either Thron doesn't or doesn't

care, but yes, that scene where the first kidnapping attempt has failed. And Sabayov is like, yeah, I can just summon Luke Skywalker to me. And Thron, you can't just keep running the Nogger play, it's not going to work. And like them getting in this

battle of wills and Nacuvenin and Pallion being like we could solve both problems and just like keep it moving. And the degree to which like both these guys are seeking to dominate the relationship in some ways, like these things about like who's going to be the power, you know, who is the heir of the empire? Right.

Sabiof and Theron are both on the cover. Right. Right. And so are the Skywalker's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you go look at the original one, Sabiath has his hands upraised, just like going, blah, lightning. The cover that I have is the, because it's the essential legends collection. edition of this is a

close up on Thron's face and then Luke Skywalker raising his lightsaber to the sky. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, the original is this. Where... That's a fucking cover. It's a fucking cover. Sabiof's hands up shooting laser beams and then... He's like ripped.

Yeah, my man is ripped. Absolutely shredded. Yeah. Throne is like basically not even here. He's off to the side of the left. He's not even blue. he's blue he's blue the whole cover is blue so it's hard

to see that's a reference to him his face is next to Luke's his face and their skin tones are the same color that's lit from the fire he has red eyes you can see the red eyes I hear to the empire looks like this goaded guy with the laser it's coming out of his fingers

with his own necklace I never know Chewy's got a head tilt going like huh what's going on here what's happening here what's happening here startled crypted is the the vibe we're getting there.

God. Yeah, like the tension there is like, you know, one of the last things, observations Pollyon makes is he wonders if Thron understands that they've got a tiger by the tail type situation here. If like this was a slumbering power on Wayland, we brought to the center of things. Let's see how that goes.

So power, not slumbering, kind of shambling, the New Republic. Bro, they need help. They need help. They need help. The note I wrote down here somewhere is that every time there's a meeting between the key council members of the New Republic, who I will list for you, because I think it's important that we all have the same people in mind, it is Mon Mothma, our friend, Mon Mothma, clearly the kind of lead here, the person who hits the gavel and is like, that's the end of the scene. Leah, it is Admiral Akbar as the commander-in-chief of the military, and it is a new person named Borsk Faita Borsk Falia, who is the commander of the Bothan spy unit that got the second

Death Star plans, the ones who famously died for these plans. That's the crew, and whenever they're on screen, it does not feel like the leadership of the New Republic of a vast galactic polity. It feels like the sort of members of an after-school club debating what to do with the funding that the PTA gave them for the Halloween dance. There is like fucking Riverdale energy coming off of this crew. It feels tiny. It feels small.

It doesn't even feel like the room that Darth Vader came in with all the moths and admirals in A New Hope. The energy is fucking off, man. And Leah is out here talking about, well, they need me because I'm the only one who was trained to be a politician when I was a little girl. Meanwhile, Amad Mathema was in the Senate with you. And apparently is the founder of the Rebel Alliance as written here. What the fuck?

No offense, Leah, I like you. I like some of your work. I do, but you know Well, Mon Moth is busy with the gavel these days I guess so Am I wrong with this with this characterization of how these scenes feel? Oh, 100%.

No, you're not wrong at all. Because it doesn't feel like they're like, you know, if you were doing this stuff I just read that book that Claudia Gray book Bloodlines, which is the same timeline just in the contemporary canon and is all Leah politics focused and the rise of the New Order,

the Kylo Ren Group and all that shit. Which, like, I don't, I'm not saying that these books are comparable or, like, one is, you know, it's way zoomed in on Leia in a different way. It gives her a lot of space to do other stuff. They're not trying to do as much. But I did get the sense that she was one person

dealing with two rising political parties, dealing with a galaxy of different planets. Here, she does get dispatched to go deal with a planet, but, like, it feels like the only people who are able to be dispatched are, like, There's like 15 people in a room. It doesn't feel like there's like a Senate somewhere of hundreds of people debating the future of the galaxy. It feels tiny.

And I don't know that that's, I think to some degree, maybe that's a misstep from Zahn, but I do think that the intention is to make it feel like intimate and small and, you know, a group that's struggling from going. I mean, this is textual. It's struggling from going from rag-tag military resistance group to actual state. And, like, it doesn't have to just be a state. It has to be a unifying federal government for hundreds or thousands of planets. That's a big thing it needs to be.

They didn't even rename the city from Imperial City. That shit's still called Imperial City. Luke is sleeping in the fucking Emperor's throne room or whatever from the Imperial City. They're in the Imperial Palace. They are. This is something I had a game, though. Like, when Luke is awakened by Ben being like, goodbye, Luke, I have to go. even more one with the force.

And I think part of it is can't have Ben around to ask questions. Like it's like Ben, what's up with the Clone Wars? Oh, well. No, can't do it. So Ben's just got to go. And also I think it is,

I think it's narratively very effective. It is the moment where like, Luke, kind of the tragic place that he has left at the end of the trilogy is he hasn't been prepared for any of this. No. All his parental and men tour figures have abandoned him and he is left with this terrible burdened and legacy and he

knows how badly it can go if it is if it is done wrong and nobody is around to prepare him for this or tell him what to do or even like really point him in a direction he's just got he's got this this this this legacy to carry on and then the rudiments of forced training and that's it and here here at the outset like ben does it again where it's like i just i got to go good luck buddy is it's very sweet farewell you know he you know i the jedi you know zon's like jenn i can tell tell their mentees they love them like that they're like a son to me um you know that's there zan doesn't know about oh the july were really like they were really kind of weird feelings and attachments none of that in the zon in the zon verse um who could have foreseen

how extreme it was going to be given how normalish they seemed at the outset like Ben, Ben seems like it all, you know. Yeah. He's here to teach you for shit, but like he doesn't seem like, now Luke, that seems like emotion

you're experiencing. That's fucked us, kid. Not any way. Outside of don't give it to dark feelings, right? That's all over the original trilogy. Don't give it to hatred. Don't give in to the desire to do someone harm because they've spiked.

you or whatever, but there's not the end, and don't let your feelings guide you into rash action. Don't go rush off to save your friends because that's a short term gain. The long term gain here is learn how to be a Jedi, master your emotions, and then you can save the galaxy. Of course, I don't know, Yoda could shut the fuck up sometimes. My friends need help. I'm going to go be there for them. But like, that didn't seem like no feelings allowed. It seemed like, hey, we got to teach this kid, who, by the way, there is the throwaway line of, not in here, but in, in, uh, original trilogy of, in empire, with Luke being quote unquote too old to, to train.

And it's like, that's where that whole shit comes from. All that shit comes from that one little line of Luke is too old to train. I just saw a tweet about this. And it's like, yeah, I guess there also wasn't really, you know, Yoda didn't say, well, normally we recruit Jedi from random, you know, force sensitive babies across the galaxy when they were six all that Lucas had to fill that in later you know well he doubles down on it so hard because they're looking at they're looking at little jake Lloyd right and being like a little old to start training don't you think and it's like yo is it like ultrasounds that you got to like

oh well we got a Jedi here this is why jeruse is so excited about the twins they ain't even born yet and their metachlorian counts off the charts but i do like like from the first Luke can't shake this feelings. He's having these dark nights of the soul over like where things are out the rebellion. He can't shake the sense. They're fucking this up. He's like, we shouldn't wire when the imperial palace.

He's like, I can't, I can't feel the emperors, the emperor's like taint his evil here. But would we? He can't shake the sense than just being here, they might be under dark side influence. But either way, he makes this other point

that there's too much symbolism in taking over Corrassant and certainly too much symbolism and taking over the Imperial Palace and our movement pays too much attention to symbolism. I love it. Which could be a diagnosis

of Star Wars fandom. But it is the like we can't the future can never make the past can never be made to make way for the future. Everything has to pay like homage to the past. This is one of the things I think

is so funny about this and fascinating about this characterization of Luke that like Zahn made, Zon kept the farm boy in Luke. a little bit here. That line, the line that you're talking about, the symbolism was all wrong for one thing, particularly for a group which, in his opinion, already had a tendency to pay too much attention to symbols. Like, Luke is a trained Jedi at this point. Well, give him that.

You know, without any, especially without any of the prequel knowledge or like what a trained Jedi is supposed to look like and go through and all that. Luke is a trained Jedi. And he's also the guy from Tatooine who used to be a moisture farmer and who, like, is kind of grounded compared to the kind of highfalutin senators and the people who are, you know, Luke is not the arts boy, right? Luke is not the feelings guy. He trusts his feelings, but he's not like, he's not the guy who's like, we can convince people through a show of prestige and beauty. That's not him, right? He's the guy who works on droids and flies a spaceship. And I really like remembering that. Now, I also think that he has never seen more like a little child than as Zahn has rendered him here. He, the bit where he's like, you know, Lando taught me about this drink and it turns out to be hot chocolate.

And then, I don't even if he's, yeah, go ahead. I especially love it because it feels like the setup is that he gets out of bed and fixes himself a cocktail. I know. Like, it's like, Lando taught me this drink. And then, like, it's like a reveal later on that it's merely hot chocolate. And I think Lando did sell it to him like it's this exotic big deal drink. And I know, listen, historically, chocolate is an exotic, you know, drink that comes to an imperial core via exploitation and da-da-da-da. I understand the historical chocolate has a history, right?

And I think that that's what they're trying to echo. I think that's what Zahn is trying to echo here. There is a, there is a, you know, something happening there. What I think actually is happening is Lando is like, my man, Luke, I have a drink for you. It's very exotic. You know, a lot of people your way of the galaxy, you don't get to have things like this. So only break it out on special occasions. And then it's just hot chocolate.

And also zero interest in tying one on with Luke. A hundred percent. Like this is, hey, like, let's go out of the town. Oh, it really gets you going, doesn't it, Luke? Yeah, exactly. So this is being drunk. Yep, this is it. Oh, you get, you're getting a little sleep.

Be, huh? Yeah, we call that a buzz. Han and I are going to go out of the next place. Yeah. Oh, you wouldn't like this. This isn't what you have is strong, strong for a Jedi spirit. That's the good shit. Yeah, exactly.

But then he also says stuff like putting together a real functioning government is a lot harder than I expected. You are a child. What do you mean? It's harder than you expected. His view on the world. He's getting done. I'm happy with it to some degree because it is, it really is about like his.

to some degree his like naive position like he got to be the superhero who saved the day he saved his father's hard he is 25 he's a baby he's a little baby he's such a baby in this it's so funny throughout all of it we'll get to other fun there i think there's good luke characterization here i'm not even saying that this is bad necessarily but like you know it is it is he's such he's just such a little boy there's the bit where later on where Han and Leia have a little inside joke about where Han is like, there wasn't time to discuss it in committee. And Leah's like, well, I'm not a committee. And there's a little aside where it's like, Luke said, promised himself that one day he'd ask what that particular private joke of theirs referred to.

It's huge little brother energy, huge, like on the outside looking in. And it's so fascinating because, like, Luke is kind of defined by his love for his friend. his willingness to put his life at risk to help people who he cares for. But he's also isolated and separate from them. Like that core tension of what it means to be a Jedi is so core to who Luke is that you have to, you have a different relationship to emotions and feelings in the world and the galaxy and the way things feel that separates you from other people, but also emphasizes your feelings of love towards them.

And it's like, here it is, here it is. And this is materially what it means is sometimes he wakes up with bad. feelings and has a little hot chocolate and doesn't really know that he can talk to anybody about it. Lay is too in the world for him. She's not really on the same, like, they're not, they're not synced, you know? Yeah, I, that there's two points here that I think are interesting, because what you were saying before about how, like, the, the current rebel committee doesn't have, they're not, like, rulers of a world. Like, even if you didn't have those scenes, you can see the anxiety of that just through Han Leia and Luke and the like positions that they're in and what

they're thinking about and like you know what they're what they what their what they what their day to day is like that like none of them are having a good time none of them feel particularly like you know secure or you know confident in the positions that they're taking in the moves that they have to make but also like the the I think it's really interesting that Luke just doesn't have his role. Like, Leia is the senator. Han is the former smuggler turned right

or the recruiter, I guess is really what you would call him these days. And then Luke is just like chilling. Like he's just He just... Well, he's a symbol in some ways, right? They know he doesn't like symbols, but he is the big hot shot poster boy.

And so sometimes he gets deployed along with her to be like, oh, they love remember the planet they go to. But that's And, like, training her. And that's it. The only reason he's involved in that first mission is because the planet, quote, unquote, has a hero thing. Like, I think that is as much as it explained. But, like, the fact that, like, they didn't even find a place for him in terms of, like, you know, he's not in the meetings about making laws.

He's not in the meetings about building a library. Right. He's not in the meetings about building neighborhoods or whatever. And he also hasn't like. He's not even like with Wedge in Rogue Squadron. He's not still piloting. He's not teaching people how to pilot. He's not like, what's he doing?

Being sad. Also, Ben should have told him earlier than this. Ben shows up and it's like, I got to go. Don't remember. Don't, don't dark side. Farewell. You couldn't have told me two weeks. Give me two weeks notice.

Yeah. You know. Real conversation. No, just gone. Time to leave. But I actually, but it's such a good place. think it's tapping into the sense that everyone has that like Luke is going to end up lonely in like the where the trilogy leaves him is that he is going to be isolated by his role

and responsibilities in this new world in a way that like everyone else's future is a little bit laid out that like Han and Lay are going to be together that the rebellion is one and like there are people who are going to be in charge of of building whatever's going to come after the empire but that's Luke was a pilot and then he's and then he's the first of the Jedi and that's and that's kind of it and there's this sense of he's an honored guest you know they ask him like could you come like just do you get a vibe off the imperial palace no then great we're gonna we're gonna set up shop here because beyond that unless you tell us your Jedi sense is tingling we're just not really

interested in what you have to say right right but I do think the other the other thing here is like, you know, from the perspective of him being a kid who's a pilot, like Menmothma, those people, they've got it. They know what's coming next. And the revelation here is like, no, they don't. They don't. And the entire, you know, as you said, their core decision making apparatus is four people. Basically, the people are in charge of the rebellion. And now they're trying to grow the new republic.

rapidly. The empire is just shedding worlds right and left. And Leah is just being sent everywhere to just bring new worlds in. But the government feels ramshackle and dysfunctional. Because yes, when we get the other, the first taste we get of like how really what a hollow edifice the new republic is, when we catch up with Han, he's back at the moss eyes of the canteen. But here, Zahn is returning to tattooing very purposefully. Not in the Star Wars way of like everything is always ends up happening on tattooing. Here, it's you can't go home again. Han shows up and Tatween's dead. Like, job is gone. So this world doesn't matter anymore. Like, it's just, it's gotten a little cleaned up, slightly gentrified, mostly because the criminal gangs, like, are no longer doing deals and shooting, shooting up the canteen.

But it's just, it doesn't feel like it did. The world has kind of moved on. It's become kind of a dead, boring place. And the other thing that Han is doing this. there he is trying in some ways to reconnect with his old life and his old people but it only serves to heighten just how out of the game he is like he has this brutal meeting because he's trying to sell smugglers yeah on how would you like to get into the world of long haul trucking for federal rates yeah and everyone's like why are you what yeah why would you even think

would you like and this he meets he meets his friend Aves who he goes back with and he's like he basically gives him the action is the juice right like he basically tells him like you know smugglers don't just do this for the money right like it's the smuggling

and all Han has the offer is like well you know this new government like it's going less smuggling because things be going so good that like you know there'll be it'll just be harder getting good cargoes his argument is that the new government

is not going to have, so smuggling existed during the imperial era because of a combination of tariffs on goods, which meant that you would pay a smuggler so that they would smuggle in something and you wouldn't have to pay the tariff. You could pay cheaper to the smuggler or you pay the smuggler's rate, but you wouldn't have to then also pay for the tariff. And then also theoretically, I guess, because of contraband, like things that are fundamentally you can't ship them. And he says the republic is not going to have big trade tariffs. And so smuggling is going to go away because that core reason for it, and presumably the safer sort of smuggling, right? It's one thing to get caught smuggling, you know, whatever, penicillin because you don't want to somebody who doesn't

want to pay the tax on it. But it's different to smuggle weapons where if you get busted, you're fucked you know um uh the idea that the republic's big plan is like and i mean this is what dravis the guy he's trying to recruit is saying it's like oh for yeah this is dravis that's right yeah this is dravis he's like come on a brand new government like that's broke is not gonna pile on tariffs to these new worlds and i don't know maybe that maybe they're not gonna but like it does seem it serves to highlight the the bad position the republic is in well and the other reason they need the smugglers is because it appears there's a shipping crisis in the galaxy because nothing is moving basic goods around anymore

that like the trade networks that the empire ran have just fallen the fuck apart. I'll put this in conversation to the shit we've been talking about since episode two of the Clone Wars. Our episode two, not their episode two, Yoda is still jumping around and blowing up tanks or whatever. But since Uncle Ono was like, hey, we want to work with the separatists because it's better for our local economy.

Like, here it is again. The idea is the galactic empire functioned because you had specialized planets in almost like the Roman Empire sense, specialized locations that would focus on one commodity and then ship it around. And now we're returning to, and I think this is a really fun threat to the New Republic, why do we need a central body at all? Why do we all have to be part of the same government? Which the other thing smuggling comes from is like just,

To your point, if the entire point of mercantilism is like things come back to the cosmopolitan core, and then we take our profit cut and then the goods go back out to the colonies, but that's how the exchange happens. But the two things of these local economic monocultures and the fact that they are all supposed to have their trade mediated through the one central authority, smuggling begins to crop up because you will have them creating their own local economy to trade between the point. points on. Why go Rodea Correscent to tattooing when you could just go from Rodeo to tattooing? And there's things that maybe they don't want Rodea producing because it's like, no, it's more profitable if it, but not to the Rodeans

and not to the people near them. Right. And so like this. It turns out maybe the Rodeans don't fucking need to import whatever from tattooing. Spice from tattooing. I can go my own spice, you know? And these are and these are questions. The Republic is clearly not really

figured out. And so they're going around being like, you guys got ships, which is, you know, it's also just a breathtaking plan. It is like, it's like you blow up the global shipping network. And then you're going around to a bunch of guys in like Miami Vice fastboats and being like, maybe you could be our shipping network. Well, it doesn't even seem like it's their plan because when Han comes back to the meeting, they're like, oh, your smugglers didn't come to help us out. What's your plan be?

What's your plan on me? Han is like going out of his way to put his neck out to do this because he's found a place for himself unlike Luke. And like I know we already said it. I know, but it's to hear it again. Luke, I love you if you're listening. Sorry. But like, you know, it does not feel like it's a thing that they assigned to Han at all. And like if they haven't even done that much, what are they actually really doing?

because if it's like meet and greets and you know lay a shaking hands they need a little bit more than that I mean no wonder they're living in the imperial palace these motherfuckers don't know how to build a building I mean it would be in committee until next year before we got a new place for Luke to live well and that's the so like these meetings

like the smallness is also amplified by the fact that midmothma yes she bangs the gavel Akbar is jealous he has like he's a military leader yeah what are you still doing here and in some level it seems like he maybe knows he shouldn't be but he's like no I need to I need to protect my turf because I'll be damned if I let that French fucker over there because Horstfalia extremely French resistance coded oh these huge French resistance coded you're totally right like why are you such a big deal in this new order uh because our resistance

like so vital to defeating the empire. Okay. Cool. Cool. I mean, there's a specific line in here somewhere where someone explicitly says, you know, to themselves, like, I wasn't really sure how he managed to pivot getting the Death Star plans to getting a seat on this council.

But he did it and he's here now. Luke could just end this right now if he's like, but they leaked it to you. Uh-huh. They wanted, like, the Boffin spies like fucked up. They didn't, they were, they were served a bill of goods and they like, They got Tinker Tailor Soldier Spied.

They did. That's what the Emperor said. Carla just owned their ass. I do just kind of, I do suspect that Luke has talked about that maybe once or twice. Well, not that specific detail, but the big final confrontation. It's just too nice to really make an issue of it. Well, I think it goes a couple different ways. One is, yeah, he's too nice to make an issue of it.

He doesn't want to throw anybody in. There's both in the spies sucked. Those real talk. The bottom's very sucked, actually. And the Emperor leaked it to them. And he's not going to say that's not who he is. Two is, it gets weird because he's out here talking. talking about, like, and then Darth Vader turned out to be, he showed me his face and he said

he loved me and he threw the emperor into a, and everyone's like, that's cool, that's cool, Luke, you know, and then Lando blew up the death star after her, you know, like, we're glad you got out okay, buddy. It was really good when you blew up the death star the first time. And because they don't know the emperor was doing battle meditation either, right? They don't understand that that was a key part of their victory. Luke and Wedge and me and Nunb got them both. Got Vader and Palpatine, one shot as far as they're concerned. Well, that's the thing.

It's like, yeah, Luke fucking went into the Death Star for some reason. Okay, we'll be out here fighting the war, right? The other way it could go is it's hard for Luke to talk about, right? I think maybe the more realistic version is like, it's kind of hard for me to talk about when I almost killed my dad because I was driven by rage by the little frog who lives at the center of the galaxy, you know, like the evil, the evil man who drew out my darkest feelings and I was only barely brought back because I remembered that I had a sister who I also loved and I believed that there was love in the heart of my father. Like, that's not a conversation

I'm trying to have regularly. And so maybe I'll leave out the bot and stuff. I won't bring out the bop and spy stuff so that no one asks me how the rest of all of that went also, you know? I think you're probably more right with that second one, but now I'm thinking of the like Gumby meme of like Luke texting the council and being like Oh my God, it was so scary I had a nightmare last night And then it'd be like, okay

Okay, Luke and the bath and spies Like, oh man Oh man, we got those plans It was so sick. Cool You can text me any time You can text me anytime Phala or whatever his name is Borsk is this is a borsk sorry

I have the room down Yes, Borsk phalia Borsk was real? I was faking it. Borsk is real. All right. Great. These motherfuckers. I mean, one more thing here on Luke and this opening bit where he's sad is the other part where he hits the thing that I was talking about before of like the limits of being a Jedi. That like being the special boy won't fix the galaxy anymore.

He has the bit where he's crying. He's fighting back sudden tears because of because of Ben dying and Ben moving on finally. his mug felt cold against his hand swallowing the rest of the chocolate he took one last look around at the city at the clouds and in his mind's eye at the stars that lay beyond them stars around which revolved planets upon which lived people billions of people many of them still waiting for the freedom and light the new republic had promised them he closed his eyes against the bright lights and the equally bright hopes there was he thought wearily no magic wand that could make everything better not even for a jedi i'm like all right this is where we're starting This is what Zahn believes about how you have to tell the sort of story of reconstruction or whatever this looks like, this sort of post-revolution story of building a new society. Luke cannot be the guy. Luke has to go have a different story. And that story might intersect with this one.

Wizard wants a wife. Wizard wants a wife. That's Wizard wants a wife, episode one. It's sad out here on Coruscant, right? And like, that's where we can start. And maybe that'll come back in on the big, new Republic story. but Luke can't be the guy who... Luke is not going to President Bartlett his way through that.

You know what I mean? Like, there is not any sort of heroic activity that this one guy can put on his back to make it work. And he's not equipped to be the politician who can maneuver people around to get that to work. That's going to be Leia's story. Get ready to read that is kind of what Zahn is saying here, you know. Also, interesting, billions of people in the galaxy, not trillions.

So there aren't like a thousand Earth-sized planet. for instance. It's just billions of people. We have billions of people on this planet. Yeah, but that's because we got whole like cities that have like characteristics that like in Star Wars, that's just like the planet's whole deal. That's what I mean in some ways, right? It's like truly most of the planets out there are not hundreds of millions of people.

Because if they were, it would be trillions of people. Or there's way less planets that we think there are, you know, but yeah. Or the emperor was putting in work. but yeah like Luke is Luke is kind of lost in this world and he spends this opening segment kind of trailing along like a balloon on a string after Han and Leah

still trying to be part of the gang and it's like hey it's great we're married and we're expecting we're expecting their kids and like he's less like Chewy is a core part of the household in a way Luke isn't

Like, Luke, it's like, hey, Luke, it's great. You feel okay? That's great. Like, that's nice. He lives with Leia, you know? 3Bio had to come up with the, to check in on him because Leia could feel that Luke was sad, which is the other half in a sweet deal. It is.

The droids, like, in a way or a way of communicating with each other without, like, putting pressure on each other. Yeah. Like, it's a sweet interaction he has with 3PO. Right. Because if Leia had picked up the phone and called him, it would have been a little much. but if leo was like and 3PO was like

should I go check on him you know basically it was nice yeah interesting well we'll see what they do with the two but just the way uh 3PO notes that like ben was always very very kind to him and R2 and like

seeing here Luke is like yep that was who Ben was like he would be kind to anyone whoever they are including if they're a droid he doesn't see like just interesting again, like where droid personhood is, is left in these things. And here it's a little

bit, so far at least, it's not quite the dichotomy we see where like start, like in the prequel trilogy, people are kind of willfully blind to the individuality and like personhood of droids. Whereas Luke kind of takes it for

granted, but crucially, they're kind of weird little people too. Yeah, well, there's a great throwaway about the one line about his ship and R2, right? That the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, X-wing can't be worked on without R2 there, because Luke refuses to let them wipe the X-wing memory in the same way that no one ever lets R2's memory get wiped. And now the two, the, the, the X-wing memory and the, the, the, the,

two's like, you know, capacities have kind of intermingled, uh, quote, uh, he'd refuse to let them wipe the X-Wing computer every few months, as per standard procedure. inevitable result was that the computer had effectively molded itself around R2's unique personality so much so that the relationship was almost up to true droid counterpart level. It made for excellent operational speed and efficiency. Unfortunately, it also meant that none of the maintenance computers could talk to the X-wing anymore. Wild. Cool. It's like, and like, books are good. It's sort of implied there is like R2 person. Yes. The X-wing to R2? His dog. Or his droid, but Either way, it is, like, it is now a little being that he is, like, trained and coached, and, like, nobody else can give it command because, like, that's R2's X-wing.

Yeah. Do you think 3PO gets jealous of the X-wing? No, because I think it's more, like, dog than companion. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I don't think 3PO is threatened by the X-wing.

It's, it's, like, because that's not. Different type of relationship. No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if they were just, like, on dagger, but together. for six months without 3PO being there. It's not a big deal. No.

That's because like our two is 3PO's counterpart. Right, right. Not like Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, of course. But like, I think Luke's McSgivings appear to be well-founded because the Republic seems at sea. Like, Akbar is kind of a jealous, like, petty bureaucrat who's defending turf. Phalia is

just in their stirring. vibes. I like him because he's a shittster and probably evil, but, but worst vibes. I like him because he's a character and a book and I don't have to like go to work with this guy, you know? Well, to me, the vibe is one of those people that they're awful and the company would probably be better if it was being run by them. Like it is, it is one of those things where it's like, oh, you've got the mix of ambition and interest and ability. that, like, this would go better if you were running it. Rob, do you remember when we got a new managing editor at that time?

And I liked our old managing editor. It was like, I liked our old managing editor a lot. But we got a new one. And it was like, we're going to get on this new system for tracking stories. And everyone hated it because it was a pain. It was a pain. But it was nice once you're all on that system. It was nice to have someone who, like, made it all work.

Yep. And then that person was gone. And I immediately, and I, we were in the, we were in the group chat talking about, I can't believe we're being asked to do this shit. Can't believe, this person sucks. They don't understand what we're doing here. They left and I was like, you know, maybe, maybe to leaving, they should have gotten a promotion. Because the way things went after that, less and less organization, less and less clarity.

Well, and also, I think this is the thing is like Luke touches on the, hey, these are all rebellion leaders right that doesn't translate to administering this shit administration is a different thing and there's a bit of like so like in a media organization you're surrounded by writers and editors and it's like okay but now you need to oversee like dozens of writers and editors and their and their freelancers and such different skill set doesn't oh you're good writer that's great that's that's irrelevant to this this part of the job it's irrelevant yeah um but But there's a little bit of that where Monmothma is

just like whipping Leia at the problem because it seems like her bag has been, I need someone to go be my envoy. Leia's always been that. So she's the only person I trust to go do outreach and diplomacy and then get people in on this awesome new government where

we're starting, which so far is a fish man and a big cat arguing. Yeah, I like I'm I'm not convinced on the cat man because it is really coming into focus in this conversation that it is a spy guy, a military guy, and two senators.

And you really need a lot more perspective than that to run potentially hundreds of planets. Spy guy, military guy, and two senators also feels kind of probably like how the empire started. Just putting that out there. All right. This is enough lawmakers, right? We had an intelligence and our admiral.

The two people are the law. left and right of Palpatine all the time. You know, that's it. That's all you need. The rest of it can be fucking military people. You know, and this is also where we get Leah being like, you know, unlike virtually everybody else in the Rebel Alliance, she had had, quote, extensive training in both theory and more practical aspects of politics. She'd grown up in the Royal House of Alderon, learning about system-wide rule from her foster father, learning it so well that while still in her teen, she was already representing him in the Imperial Senate. Without her expertise, this whole thing could easily collapse, particularly in these critical early stages of the

New Republic's development. Now, when I read this, I was like, there is no fucking way it's all going to collapse without Leah. Unfortunately, then I read the next eight chapters. And it's like, she might be right, but she shouldn't be right. They're just, they need more people, right? Like, she can't, I couldn't believe this when I read this, that this was, that she would be the one person with political expertise, but she really is. Well, she could miss me with the noblest oblige stuff, but otherwise, but she's kind of right. They should promote her nursemaid or whatever, who apparently is just as, yeah, yeah, who's just as good in- What are your lives on winter?

I'm a winter fan. I'm having fun with winter. Huge winter fan. Yeah, nothing wrong with winter. Love to have, you know, a girl boss backup. Now, admittedly, is she basically a mentot that you're like buddies with? Yeah. She's also kind of a spy, right? She has a purpose. perfect memory and is secretly taking, not just minutes, but like, memorizing the entirety of... Dude, the fact that she's an eavesdropper, she's basically, yes, she is the NSA has tried to do. Yes. Like, winter just is that. Like, Leia's like, I'm going to leave the room for a minute here and just, like, you can hang

with winter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No wonder Leia's important. Leia hears it all. Well, and I think this, but the fan dick here, too.

is like it is a bunch of people who all like have heroic abilities who have done done like hero shit in the past and what do you know none of them feel comfortable bringing anyone else in to run this shit because like this was anything done right is done by the people in this room and so we've ended up with this like just nightmare of an organization where everyone's everyone's trapped in a role they hate the most relatable thing here is that leah's role in the first like in this first stint is to repeatedly, admittedly, with a lot of annoying prodding from Han, but again, that also feels relatable, they're having its higher domestic, not squabble, but it is the, hey, the kids are coming. Like, there are children on the way. You need parental leave. This can't, like, I don't see them making plans for when Leah's not going to be around. And Han is dead right. He's like, you need to, he's like, you need to do some Jedi training that, that, that, that, like, once the kidnapping attempts start, he's really on that. Like, you need to, you need to get some, some of that Jedi training. But the other big thing is like, this is untenable. This is not, this is just not going to work the way she is being a mammotha surrogate for every single thing happening in the, in the new republic. And everyone's like, no, we'll leave it to the last, lay out, trust me, this, this next mission have, let's, let's Let's this next round of missions. We'll get you your leave.

That ain't happening. Mon Motha doesn't even say that much. Like there is this sort of like, Han fucks this up by being like, Leah has to take time off to learn to be a Jedi instead of being like she's pregnant and sick and can't do this. Mon Motha is like, no, that's not going to happen. We actually need her. Like there's not even the suggestion that like once we, once we, you know, finish the negotiations with the, what do they, it's something with the Bih, the planet that they were on.

The Bimissari. Bimsaari. Bimsaari. Not the Bipashi. Different thing. Yes, two different places. But, you know, once we, because we sort of, I guess we haven't even gotten there. But like the whole, like, they go and try to do this negotiation and then Han leaves because of the kidnapping attempt.

There's not even like, oh, well, this is your big job for the. season or for, you know, what we're establishing here. It's like, no, I just need you to do this all of the time. There's going to keep being these situations where either the empire that's remaining is just going to go doing pot shots as planets for some reason. And you have to be the person to go there and be like, oh, we're so sorry about that. Or, you know, I need you for these meetings or whatever else. And there's just like no breathing room. Yeah. For people listening who are not reading along. I really do just want to be clear the way we're characterizing this. Like, there is no mention that, like, also, there are 50 other senators off doing this

too. Or, oh, Mad Mothma sent one of her aides to go do. There's, you know, there are ways to focus on four or five core characters in a government setting and then gesture at all of the hustle and bustle of the rest of it going on. And obviously, presumably there's some of that happening. But there are no words spent on trying to make it feel like a big, busy, bureaucratic machine that's functioning. It really truly feels like, because it's written this way, four or five people in a council room. And again, I know that narratively you're going to be able to point at other books that fill in the gaps and say, oh, but also there are these people doing this and that is not the kind of experience of reading how this is laid out. I do think

that's intentional. I really do. Yeah. But again, It doesn't mean there aren't other people, but it's focused on that intimacy and that smallness. It's not a big group. I think the most that we get is Han saying, like, oh, you know, talking to four people is sometimes worse and longer than talking to the bigger group, quote, quote. And then in that first scene, we get like, oh, there's conversations in the margins or whatever. But, like, I really do, the more that we're talking about it, I like, it feels really intentional for Zahn to be setting up this thing where it's like, The empire was generational, but the people who are inheriting it are inexperience. And the Republic doesn't have any inheritors, like, just doesn't.

They're these children, maybe. Right, who are not born yet. There's a gap under between the veterans of the war and what comes next. You know, there aren't, we don't, there's no one who's like the young up-and-coming senator who's part of this, you know, who's like, who was born. I mean, again, we're only a few years away from the end of the rebellion, right? So it's not like it's been 20 years or something, I guess. But like, no one who was 15 or who was 20 when Luke, the first Death Star, is here today being like, and that's when I knew I wanted to be part of what you were building.

And we haven't met that person, you know? Or if we have, it's someone like Paige who is this cool spy who shows up in Han's tattooing scene, or not a spy necessarily, but like, great beat, commando, yeah. That's a great beat where the guy that Han is trying to bring into the smuggler is like, oh, by the way, I saw your second here. I saw the guy who's covering your back, who's wedge. And of course, wedge is the distraction. And page is the real, like, secret backup that's in the room that no one notices, which is a really fun beat. And, like, it's like the military function might still be working, right?

They're, the people who are who have been signing up here, you know, there's still a operating, you know, aircraft hangar. Luke's X-Wing is. There's no questions. None of that stuff is being described the way that the bridge of the chimera is being described is being filled with young unexperienced people. Like that part of the machine is still working. The part that isn't is, hey, how do we get more people to give taxes to? You know?

So, yeah. It's, well, and like, it comes up toward the end of, right as Hans, like, we need to, we need to go to ground. Like, after the second kidnapping attempt. Han is like there's a leak in the palace. Like at this point there, this is twice now we've been ambushed. These people know our itinerary.

And Akbar is very defensive because he sees it as a criticism because he's counterintelligence. Again, the person will becoming political, the people are territorial, they cannot just separate like, oh, so you're saying I'm doing a bad job. It's a bad scene all around.

But there's a decide that Han has, which is that like, Akbar still thinks himself as a military man. The military is like his, his baby, except the military increasingly likes Failia. Phalia is the first, like, political figure who's popular outside the core Cadra. And they're trying to close ranks on him. They're like, this son of a bitch, this sneaky, this sneaky little, this little fox cat

guy. I hate him. I hate the way his fur ripples. I hate how creamy it is. He can go to hell. I don't want to pet that guy at all. Definitely don't want to, don't want to pet him. Don't want to think about what would be like to have sex.

with a like cat fox person not at all not at all wouldn't think about that even but might become a major really holding a series about starfighter pilots and like those guys get down I'm sorry are there is there is there is there is there a bothan hookup in rogue squadron yes there is I don't remember this big oh yeah huge huge there's okay so big's dark lighter he's got a little cousin or a little brother Gavin dark lighter uh-huh And he meets up with a cool, like, bad girl. I want to send this picture, Al, you're going to get it instantly. You're going to get the vibe instantly.

Oh, wow. Okay, okay. They really decided. Okay. You don't see him here, but in a different image, she has a nose ring. The face is a little hoarsier than I imagined, but... Yeah, very much. horsey. I just want to say

now that I really upset at us for being like Tarrant Card. What kind of name is that when Biggs Dark Rider is just out there? Dark lighter, thank you. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, my bad. Biggs, dark lighter. Biggs. This is, and this is

you know, one of the key guys. Wedging Biggs, you know? Anyway, go on. Anyway, the point is like this is not territory that zan explores but once michael stackpole gets gets his teeth in star wars he's like star wars bites back wonder yeah wonder what would be like to score with a boffin and becomes a because a major thing uh so the government seems shitty i know i have an important question in the middle of the han lea or han lea luke stuff is how do you feel those characters are being

written in terms of extending who they were on the film in the films do they feel like the trio to you that i don't i have a position here but i'm not i'm truly not trying to like show you my i'm not trying to don't read that as a leading question for me i think it's actually like there's times i think there's just so much exposition happening in some of the dialogue that i think the rhythms aren't quite right but a lot of times when i sort of like read a scene out loud just be like, does this sound like the characters? I'm actually struck by how often, yeah, no, I can hear, like, if you imagine Harrison Ford saying this, it would not feel inconsistent with Han. Han is one I'm really curious about. Ali, I know you're a big Han solo fan. Does this, is this Han

working? Yeah, I've been happy with it so far. I think that there's, you know, like when I mentioned before when he flubbed it at that meeting, I do think that there's like, there could be a cunningness to him that would think of a better excuse for Leah to get a day off, then, well, I really think that she should be a Jedi now because I'm afraid for her safety. But, like, in terms of, like, the interactions between each other, this, like, feeling that, like, Leia is really gung-ho about her position, but also has all of this, like, kind of anxiety and experience with being a Jedi. The, like, that Leia and Luke are just sort of constantly mind-texting each other is really fun. And Han getting annoyed by it

Yeah, the first line we get from him Is like him complaining about that And like in my heart of hearts I need to admit that like Han is a petty little guy Who will complain about those types of things Yeah So like when they're in scenes together When we have these sort of like

You know, thinking about their inner thoughts And things like that I do have really fun with it And I feel like it is kind of in line What I would think of those characters Five years later Yeah I think they generally work for me.

Han, I think, specifically has been working for me. There's a lot of little one-liners here that I can really hear in Harrison Ford's voice. When the guy is trying to split them up clearly at the next place, so they go, they get sent to, what was the name of the place? Bim Sari. Bim Sari to meet the Bims, and try to bring them into the Republic. The Bim guy, they're like, oh, we can't have this meat. because the one of the guys is sick, so we got some time to kill. What if Luke, you and Han went up to the library and then Leia, you went to the marketplace?

Because it's like, chicks love malls. But dudes, you don't want to go to the mall. We got some war shit in the museum. It's actually what it is. It's for the boys. Am I right? Anyway, the girls are going to go shopping. The boys, go look at some swords and shit.

And Leah is like, well, Luke and I'm. Han might like the market too and then and then you know they're trying to continue to do this and Han is like I like marketplaces I like them a lot and it's like oh that's it that's on so low actually and there's a lot of those little ones there is an all-timer thing that that maybe only works in text the the line where he's talking about um sorry I have to find it It's a little bit later. It's the other planet that you name dropped earlier. Rob, here it is.

Yeah, Bipfash. Hi, Han said, walking the room, glancing, and turn at Leia and Luke. He wasn't smiling. How's the lesson going? Not bad, Luke said. Don't ask, Leia countered, frowning at her husband. What's wrong? The Imperials, Han said sourly.

They just put out a three-prong, hit and fade on three systems in the sluice sector. Some place called Bepfash and two unpronounceable ones. And looking at B-P-F-A-S-S-H and two unpronounceable ones is an all-time sight gag in a book you're reading. But there's a lot of those little lines from Han that I think are that really feel like the character, who is a character who I've seen, like, wrong so many, so many times, you know. So, shout out to, yeah. There's the bit where he's like, you know, a lot of like, Luke will be like be careful and Han will be able to. like hey it's me you know and it really Han Solo blueprint for annoying guy who shows up in movies for 40 years to come you know you don't get but the original and best the original

and best yeah you you they broke the bolt on that one for sure they got him out of the the I wish people had weird ice yeah yeah I mean literally literally I'm pro recasting Han Solo with a different actor I think that was a neat experiment worth doing yeah but Not what if we did off brand Han Solo that sucks it's it's bad every time But patreon.com slash civilized for our take on solo I believe that's what that was that wasn't a main feed thing right? Yeah My favorite thing about Han Solo is that he loves his wife except for in that movie Does he not love his wife in that? Well no because he's like oh I had a girlfriend

Yeah yeah yeah yeah it's a different sort of love it really I don't no I know I know I'm with you I'm with you And that's why I disagree yeah and we hear all right Allison's like lives, man. That way lies pain. Don't get, don't get too close to a, to a wife, because she might die in a heist gone wrong.

And, and Han's emotional shields started to go up. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, so like, so they go to the, they go to the marketplace.

And I do love, like, the hitchcockian quality of the scene, that having three PO be the first one to realize that, like, they walked in the trap. Yeah, like, they turn around 3PO staring off and he realizes their guide is gone

and they're trapped in this this mall basically this open air mall yeah then on when he sees like I see why the Republic wants this planet in the Republic they got a mall got a mall well a lot of people are going to that mall

there were a lot of people you're right and not just bin other type of people they go out of the way to note like this is an intergalactic type like clientele. This is not just locals. And I do think this is another through line. There is a lot of attention, you know, because of Thron, this is a book that's going to have to talk about the history of art in the Star Wars world, not in the real world, and different types of like parts of aesthetics. And so like there is a lot of attention paid to that sort of thing all the time. So like when they land, they go all. And there's like description on what that mall looks like and the open air dome that. or the opened up dome that could close and the way it sits next to this big tower and the girders that go over it.

And there's a sort of invitation to see the world like Thron does sometimes, which I think is a fascinating maneuver. And also, you do also get, like, the sort of, like, racial essentialism that is given by just regular guy in the galaxy. And in this case, it's Han, who is, like, Han complaining about needing to go talk

to little weird aliens at the end of that one chapter. He's like, oh, yeah, great, just like old times. You go talk to these little freaks. And when you get that, you know, the version of it that you get from Thron suddenly looks very sophisticated, you know. It's a quote, sitting around, yeah, sure, sitting around with a group of half-furred, half-sized aliens, listening to 3PO's precise voice all day as he translates back and forth, trying to penetrate yet another alien psychology to figure out what exactly it would take to get to join the New Republic, just like old times. And it's like, you know, I guess a lot of people in this galaxy are thinking about alien psychologies, you know?

It's not just a throng thing. What do you think of the big action sequence, this first big action sequence, uh, as the goo guns come out? And Luke really doesn't want to stab anybody. Yeah, they're goo guns. They're like web shooters. Stokely sticks. Yeah, what are they, sorry, what are they called?

One more time? Stokely sticks. Stokely sticks. One of the many pieces of, technology I've written down here. Stokely Sticks, Sparty cylinders, Cloaking Shield, obviously. Yeah. Big one. Big one.

Mole miners. We learn about mole miners. We'll get into those more. Yeah, I bet. Stokely sticks shoot a spray nest mist 200 meters with enough shock stun juice to take down a good-sized gun dark. This is why people don't like us. You know?

Because we got to read books like this. Shock stun, juice. That doesn't immediately give you a lot of information and perspective on how that works. I don't know what you say? Good size gun dark? I feel like some serious shit. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

My favorite thing about these sticks is apparently there's like a, like, spray with and length aesthetics. Yeah. then Luke can just adjust on the fly Yeah, so it can become a grappling hook Instead of like a lasso or whatever Instead of a goo gun Yeah It's fine

I think it's fine Like so Zahn really likes to lay out Here's the terrain of the fight Here's what's all going on It's like a it's like a A GM who's very proud of this encounter Uh huh

And At the end of the day At the end of the day At the end of the day, you're going to roll to attack, aren't you? At the end of the day, you're going to roll that throw lightsaber because it's a pretty strong attack and it's guaranteed to hit. Yep. He tries his various non-lethal ways and then Lou just cuts them all down.

You know, just full, full party wipe for the, for the old no gree there. And, but yeah, like, I think it's, I think it's fine. Like, it's, you got to have... I think the second one a little more where there's like, okay, there's a fun, there's a fun gimmick with the ship landing and like, oh, we're going to get to it. That's kind of fun. They like to. So Zahn, I think, because it's not, these are not cinematic scenes. Usually it's like, what is the thing they're going to figure out during the fight? What are they going to notice that helps them, like, figure out how to win this, win this battle. And so you do get these sort of like, slightly more cerebral or like figure out, like, what is the solution to the puzzle? Here it is Luke fiddling with the stokely stick to have it become a grappling gun and, like, swing over there. But I do like, again, the way power creep hasn't happened for, like, Luke does not appear to be, he doesn't appear to know much more about being a Jedi than he did in Return of the Jedi. Like, you know, you can fight with swords. Yep.

Pretty good. You can jump a little bit, but not like crazy amounts. Yeah. Telepathy with layer. Yeah. Kind of it. Yeah. And not even word telepathy, feeling telepathy, image telepathy.

She sends a sense of like herself and a noose when the, when the group is closing in on her, which is, which is fun. Kind of like impression, you know, impressions more than sentences. But no Vader-esque like just whipping shit at like the Nagri. He doesn't have that. He doesn't have a skill set. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I do also like the like fiends that they do. do in the first fight um where they like han um decides to pretend like he's shoplifting so a bunch of like just normie shoppers crowd around them and like the the evil doers can't get near them anymore um it's funny very fun do you so i was thinking about this i was while we were talking i was thinking about how like oh rob you said like zan likes to write the like how they figure out the what's their big idea to get out of the situation more than the sort of like cinematic description of action happening. And I was thinking, oh, right, that makes sense because that's kind of Thrawn's whole thing, right? Thron is the ideas guy. And so the focus is going to be

on, here's the big interesting idea, right? And then I thought, oh, it's funny, Thron and Zahn are kind of have similar sounds. I don't have anybody ever asked him that he named Thron after himself. Because, you know, your brain just says stupid shit sometimes, you know how brains go, or they just follow lines of thought? And then I was like, well, where did he get the name Thron. And then I thought, do you think Thron is like brawn but with thoughts instead of muscles? So it's Thron, thought brawn. I hope not. I think it is. I'm going to put that out there. I think it's like brawn but with thoughts. I see. Oh, boy. That's right. He's very strong in thought. That's right. He's very throny. That's it. Thank you.

Thank you. Do you want to talk more about the book? What else happens? Get me out of this thought pit, I'm in. Because the second, no, I like you down there. Thanks. Just stay down in the thought hole. Like lay in that crater trying to figure out of this one.

How do we get out of this one? Yeah. And the answer is, Han will turn their clever ruse against them. Right, because we should be clear. They escape the first thing by getting on board the Millennium. Shui shows up and shoots them with the gun. then he gets on the ship they go back out

Han is like we're getting the fuck out of here and then they do and then the council's like you go back there right now you're going to go meet with them again you gotta go look at the no that's not true that's not true it's a different you're right it's a different place the second time no because Bipfash gets hit

and the hit and fade attacks right and so they've got to go there now got to go show that like the Republic is not going to let stuff like this happen totally well this is going to and an expanding universe is it Talon card who's the one who is like now just wait any second now the republic's going to show up and try to assure everybody that

don't worry we'll never let this happen again is that our guy and talon's also like hmm interesting tactics the imperials are using uh not i usually use a star destroyer but i guess thron is built different mara's like thron always was someone who loved complicated stratagems and he's like how do you know about thron mara and she's like I know Lots of things. Including about the empire. Who could say why? And then he's like, we're going to scrub this cargo mission.

And she's like, but we gave our word. We promised these people that their duty-free liquor and cigarettes would be there on time. And he's like, I think they'll get it. And she's like, but we promised. Talent card really, I really, you know, he's really above it. all. He really sees the big picture. He understands the way the world works. He kind of really gets it. He gets everything except for Mara Jade, who's just a little too. Oh, she's curious. I can't wrap my head around her. She's so confusing, perplexing. God. I'm a man who can

solve any mystery, but what man can solve the riddle of Mara Jade? Anyway, back on Bipfash. Leah's out there being shown around the, the ruins by Wedge. And Wedge is like, yep, stuff's fucked up here. And they get attacked by the Nagra again. And this time they're pinned down, but the Falcon comes screaming in to rescue them from this trap. But I do like how this beat is rendered. She first just has a feeling like, no, hang on, we should not run aboard that ship. And Wedge is like, come on, like, we're going to get.

killed here. We got to, we got to go. And Han, the coin drops. He's like, no, no, no, we're fine. And besides, if they start to overrun us, Chewy can always, and then he realizes this is a perfect time for the falcons little belly blaster that it used in Empire Strikes Back. Why isn't Chewy using it? And they realizes it's, it's a fake falcon. They got a shitty old YT-30. I do like that he appreciates that he appears to be... He got himself

a replica falcon to put out there. I do like this little nod to finding a mint YT-1300 freighter that is unmodified but like looks like the fall

I should actually hear this is a really important moment because now we get to say one of the things that Thrawn, Throne Jesus Christ one of things that Zahn was drawing on for this were the West End game supplements. That was one of the big resources for

like, what is the world of Star Wars was the role-playing game books. Now, obviously, he had the authority to come up with his own stuff, but almost the same way that like rebels will sometimes reference the old RPGs or the old toys. There was some of that here with, with Zon's writing, you know, because they're just, there wasn't a huge Bible to give him that was, here is how all the ships work. Here is what all the ships are. That was the closest thing, is my understanding. And so, like, that was one of the key resources for him while writing this.

And I think something like this, ooh, this particular cruiser type, obviously that's a thing that would have been written down in scripts and in probably some of the story docs that Lucas had and that Lucas film was able to give him. But also, like, that stuff really got attention in the West End Games RPG supplements. The idea of this kind of, you know, this specific ship and this rare, very. of it and the particular changes that Han had made, et cetera, was the sort of thing that, that, you know, was

something fans poured over in those books on top of all the other technical manuals and stuff like that. And yeah, they realize that ain't chewy. Hans, like, give me a lightsaber. I got a plan. I like this too. Like, again, drawing on the fact that there's something special about, it's a sword. It's a sword.

It's a sword. Jedi are better with it. But Han sliced that tauntan into being a pretty good bed roll for Luke and he fillets this false falcon and causes it to like gas its crew

and send up a smoke signal for the for Rogue Squadron to come to the rescue but that but that that tears it for Han he's like you have to start working remotely she's like I can't send messages

how am I supposed to send messages we have to use the official imperial or the official republic like codec and there's no way to just do that from some space station without being noticed i love when she's like han i hate to bring it to you new republic encryption is impossible to break and i do love his like uh yeah no there's hackers existence world they're sliders but i hate to break it to you people are watching sports games and pornography all the time over New Republic diplomatic channels.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh, but yes, that's why that's why they got to go see Lando to use his contacts of Slicers because he's the kind of guy, you know, he was friends with Lobot. That's right. You know, he can he knows he's got, he's got near for the techie people. And around that same

time, Luke right, gets word uh, that. Well, Okay, first. There's two things. Well, just a quick side, Wedge being like, you guys talking about Sabath or Sabio? Oh, he's this weird. He's this weird Jedi people were talking about on Joe Mark.

Yeah. Well, I don't know anything about him. I just report the news. So the rumors are out there. Yeah. How do you do they did that? You didn't just put people in a bar in bars across the galaxy being like, oh, I heard about this Jedi. Jedi.

It's like that fucking, I was just in a hipster bar and everyone was talking about how good Trump was. It's like, oh, yeah, I was just in a new, people like, people posting on the New Republic internet being like, yeah, I was just, I was just on like, Baspin. And I heard everyone talking about the Jedi Master who are in Joe Mark, I guess, from, yeah, on Joe Mark. Looking for, maybe it has some ancient knowledge, I think. I think it's an ancient knowledge. He had ancient knowledge You could maybe learn from I don't know Yeah

So much so much to give Wonder where he's been Anyway Yeah didn't show Maybe another Jedi Can unravel these mysteries Yeah Who is it that immediately is like

And didn't show up During the rebellion at all Just just chilled Is that what happened Uh Which That's usually a Han thing I think it was Han

Who immediately Got that vibe Yeah Um Yeah And then What is the thing Dagaba.

Someone mentions that there had been a dark Jedi who got chased off of Dagaba before 20 years ago or whatever, 25 years ago, right? Right. And so he's going to go back to Dagaba to investigate. The quote here is, um, uh, blah, blah, blah, uh, this is, this is about the, right, because. Yeah, it's 20 years why the Bitfashi don't want him around. Right. Luke isn't allowed to go to Bib Fosh because they don't like Jedi because apparently some sort of the Jedi, quote unquote, mangled things during the Clone Wars, apparently. This is the real as Zahn has ever been. This comes up again in later books, too, where people are like, yeah, no, we, Jedi are forebought in here. Yeah, and do not come around.

And Luke's like, but why? And man, the more you learn about the Jedi, you don't need to ask. Tell me about it. Tell me about it. Apparently said, quote, we were still going to get because of the whole Fet, fiasco in the Imperial Senate when I was serving there. It wasn't just the Bipfash either. Some of those Dark Jedi escaped and made trouble all throughout the Sluist sector. One of them even got as far as Dagaba before he was caught. And Luke is like, well was that? And Leah's like, yeah, like 30, 35 years ago. So before either of us were alive, obviously. And then he's like, huh, Dagabah. And she's like, why? He's like, no reason. All right, dude, we got to help you. And so yeah, he's going to go investigate what's going on in Dagabah. Maybe there's Dark Jedi stuff happening over there.

I feel like made trouble all across the sector is doing a lot of work. Maybe. I kind of want to know what kind of trouble they were making. You know, getting to bar fights. A Jedi went real bad. And by that, like, got extremely awesome. Like, started, like, there was a Dark Jedi, and you started this underground fight ring.

Shit got crazy. But then, like, it turns out he was match fixing the entire time. So we thought these things around the long. I would, like, that'd be great. I would, I would be thrilled if, if, like, Jedi gone bad. And it's like, he snuck onto a football team and started using force push when he was giving people the stiff arm. Damn. Got him.

And, like, he just wanted to be the best running back in the league. But either way, that, that sends Luke back on. Maybe he'll run into Yoda. You know, he's like, I haven't seen Yoda, but like, maybe Yoda's there. And, of course, he also knows about the other Jedi. He knows he's heard about Jeroos. He's heard about the Jedi master on that other planet. So it seems like maybe he's going to be like, let's just check out Dagaba,

and then maybe I'll go check out the other planet. And then he gets in a ship. That's kind of where we left off. And next time. Yeah. We also greased kind of through it, but he's training Leia to be a Jedi. She has a lightsaber. We talked about that she has a lightsaber.

But, you know, she's not picking it up so great, partly because she thinks she was already trained in combat, or as Luke hadn't been. And so she is more to let go of. Well, there also is one note here. I don't know if I highlighted it, but there's like, in, like, Luke's internal emo-ness, he mentioned, he remembers that Obi-Wan said to him that he did a bad job training Darth Vader. And, like, even the thinking of Luke's perspective of himself as a teacher and thinking of, like, my teacher had all of these regrets, what the fuck am I doing? Yeah. It's like, it's like such an offhand line, but it really puts into perspective the way that Luke is beating himself down. Yeah.

That I love. Flop sweat pouring off him. He's just like hit go on the whole targeting droid. And he's like, yeah, that's enough training for today. And like 20 minutes had passed and he didn't realize it. Remember? He's like, he like just completely zeroes out. It's like, voon, gone.

It's the one thing he knows how to do is swing a lightsaber around and it's not going to save anybody this time. And, or it's not going to save the galaxy this time. And I think that's stressful for him. I hope he finds his place. I hope it all. I hope we can find someone who can help him, you know. Yeah, if only there was like some sexy mysteriously.

Who hates him. But, like, in a sexy way. Right. It doesn't, isn't impressed by the fact he's Luke Skywalker. Yeah. But, like, you know, maybe on that, like, being related to on that level without. Who could say? Damn.

Only someone else out there knew what it was like to touch the infinite. I don't know. Maybe that's just me. Maybe that's just me. You know, who could sense that there was like a living force connecting all things. That would be, I don't know. I think that would be special if I could. beat someone else like that. I will say in Zahn's defense, I was not getting a lot of like

Jedi cues from Mara this early in the the book. I was just getting like cool mysterious lady. Yeah. So when I read the book like when I was a kid. Yeah. It was a lot when like things are revealed about Mara Jade later. I was like what? Yeah. Now admittedly now here it's a little heavy-handed. Don't ask me out the empire. Hate it when people to bring up the empire. I know so much about it. I think it's, for me, it's specifically the stuff around, yeah, it's specifically stuff around the empire, it's specifically the stuff around Luke.

And it's all the times that, like, she stares off into the distance in a mysterious way and all the ways in which she is like, specifically the ways of what she's able to, like, maneuver around people in ways. And I do feel like there was a particular thing around the, not wanting to be around one of the fucking cat lizards. But maybe I'm misremembering that. Maybe that's incorrect. No, it comes up later, but you'll see the context of like, Mara doesn't believe she has the force is the thing that we start to get at here.

Gotcha. So there's that too. Right. But yeah, the, the vibes early on are just like, she's just this mysterious. Like, at this point, book, it's like kind of what is she doing here? Like the card chapter's center on her But aside from being very like Don't look at me

While doing like some of the most Yeah There's there's a lot of that Hey breaking news while we were on the air here Uh huh boy we're gonna talk about this We can touch on it Uh oh yeah I missed whatever No Acolyte season two

Damn rip I told you I told you were right Al you were right We said so many times every view Dude, this sucks. Like, rip. I am genuinely bummed. I think they had gotten to an interesting place by the end of that series. But like, okay, so another, in the last month, they also canceled this.

This is less related to us, but like the, the Halo TV show got canceled. Oh. I would also say by the end of its second, by midway through its second season, it was like, oh, I can, they're figuring out what they're doing. And, like, this is getting there. And this is, like, it just keeps happening where. These things come out undercooked. They aren't given enough of a run to, like, find their feet. And then they're just, like, executed at dawn.

And everyone's like, well, that show sucked. God. It's a bummer. TV shouldn't live like this anymore. It's like seed animal in the zoo that's being mistreated. Like, it's just in an enclosure that is too small. It is not getting the right nutrients. Yeah.

They're not growing. old enough oof but it's well don't worry mandolarian season four will

I guess isn't sure we're gonna get Mandalorian and the Grogo we need the Mandalorian and Grogo first yeah

this deadline Hollywood piece has numbers oh because maybe they bragged about them early on it started strong

4.8 million views first day 11.1 million globally in its first week and then kind of collapsed. It was, it returned to the number 10 position, I guess, on Disney Plus. Yeah, that's probably not more.

Or in Nielsen's top 10 originals. Oh, that to me seems fine. That's less bad. Yeah, that's less bad. So, like, I don't, that seems, again, like, it becomes the, like, what's the metric for success thing? A lot of this seems really damning of how they point. poorly front-loaded it.

Like, there's a lot of... But you shouldn't have to be perfect to get a show off the ground. But with these shitty episode counts, the ridiculous runtimes, like this is an absurd... The run-times and the bad cuts. You know, I think that there's... There is some of this is on the hands

of not making the show the best it could have been, given what the material was. I think we were pretty clear about that. But... I mean, as the resident hater, I think some of the reaction also did a little bit to this. Like, there was more grace that could have been extended

to the acolyte. I am a Star Wars complainer. I was allowed to complain about it, but I would like to see it season two. Or at least have seen. You weren't complaining from a go-wark, go-woke, go-broke. This is the thing that we talked about.

It's the, like, thing we alluded to with, like, odd feelings around the Sarkesian effect. Sorry, or sorry, feminist frequency. Suckeesian effects was the insane, like, fever swamp. Yes, yes. We found in the Sarkisians' PO box.

She doesn't even live in it. Liar. It's like, I said there's going to be a little woman in this box making woke videos. But I opened the, I got to the post office box and I was like, open that,

open that PO box. I must interview that feminist in there. And they were like, please, sir, you must leave. But you end up in this place with, I almost, I also kind of wish they'd extend in it

because now it feels like the worst fucking people in Star Wars fandom can be like, yeah, we won. We showed them. You can't, you can't put, Kiyadi Mundi in this

and like cause a mad about that yeah yeah like that's the other part is they've set this shit up where boy if your creator working on Star Wars next next go round

you'll be fed to the fucking wolves online and then Disney will be like oof that didn't go well I mean this is the third this is like the third cut of this This is not casting new characters again because Hans Sello was rejected. This is, you know, the fuckery with The Last Jedi and Rose and Wors and Skywalker.

And Rise of Skywalker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even worse title. Like just the like complete pivot on so many ideas and everything there. And now it's finally the Ackleit sucks. So we're going to, you know, throw it out. these people have to stop getting Ws what Ws are they getting

well that's what I mean is like oh those folks yeah yeah I thought you meant the decision makers getting oh no no I mean I mean the the people wailing on the internet will now always have a CGI fucking corpse in their shows and you know

we'll never have any of their preconceptions on Star Wars challenged yep it's the the way these things are like they're given no room to breathe that everything's sort of a snap

snap reaction thing I do think in a weird way so many both this and Halo I think something that jumped out at me is that you know releasing weekly works if you have a good through line that connects the episodes

but if you don't it kills it because like the only thing that can save the shit is if someone binges multiple episodes in season arc. An Acolyte, it was like shrinkflation of shows. It was like, I don't think, was that a whole bag of chips? That didn't feel like, it felt like he opened it

and a lot of air came out, and then there was like, there's kind of nothing in there. It's Mani Yacinto's birthday today. Oh, my God. No. You are fucking kidding me. They took the stranger, come here, from us on his birthday?

Unless they're canceling the Acolyte Season 2, and in the next week, they're announcing the first season of The Stranger. They should. I mean, here's the other half of this, and this is how this shit always goes to some degree. Ten years from now, you're going to have a rabid fan base of people who are like, well, the Acolyte's the best thing that was ever in, this best Star Wars thing ever, and they canceled it before it could become, you know, clearly the victor of this era. I did it

like it will they have martyred the acolyte you'll see it's no I think I think it will be and they'll be like

hey we got a little something for fans of the Andor for fans of the acolyte in this show and people are what's

what's the accolite tie in going to be and it will be CGI man manis in tow yeah

but yeah I think it is like an inability to stand by creative teams but

But also, like, I don't even know how stand-byable Acolyte was. Like, it had its moments, but I do think it was such a flawed season. I understand that having competence in, like, a season two. But this is kind of, like... You know, I watched Schitt's first season recently, which I thought was miserable. And, like, it's wild how much better the second season of that show is. TV is hard to make. And the idea that, like, you have to, like...

And I understand the budgets are different between a... like a sitcom and a big budget you know action adventure sci-fi show but like it takes a while to find it and who knows what's going on behind closed doors in terms of the production i who could say right um the story that we just read the story that we just read from from uh deadline hollywood does not have or for deadline does not have a great breakdown of like reason it just is canceled um but who like tv sometimes gets better often gets better i think the best tv shows do not have their first season being their best season, you know? Well, even think about it in the context of Star Wars, like, imagine them cutting the chord

on Clone Wars or Rebels in the first season. Right. Like, these are not shows that I think had, like, you know, a huge fanfare of acceptance when they were released. Like, even the Clone Wars with the, like, who's Asoko? Why is Assoca there? You know, she's just going to die. This isn't Clone Wars.

It was fine in the movie. Like, like, you know, if they had, like, if it was. the same sort of like media space audience space like you know the the insane like YouTube backlash that we have here when those shows were just finding their footing and their ability to fucking animate like they would have died on the vine and it yeah rest and peace hack light rip rip to the yordhord rip to rip to the first bit of sexual tension on in Star Wars and years. The first time that the Sith, like, actually seduce, like, literally, like, figuratively.

And, like, in Ackleit's defense, also comparing it to, like, a phloney thing, because apparently Flonie is the only one who could produce something, the same sort of canyon of, like, okay, um, series premiere, middle of the season fucking sucks. And then the finale introduces all these interesting ideas. So you want to tune into the next season. That's Faloni's fucking blueprint, too. It's tough. Yeah.

Yeah. I really think it probably comes down to, you know, $100 million for the season is a lot of money to put in. And I bet that's a really hard. And I think that that's a problem with the production model at this point. Like, I really think that if you're spending $100 million on six episodes, they're 30 minutes each, it's a tough. And maybe the ultimate little bit that to me is like,

parts of the team maybe needed to be retooled. Yeah. But also again, maybe this is, as we alluded to, maybe this is also the like, this is what happens when you have a diminishing like pool of people who've like run major productions. And like this stuff is hard.

And a lot of so many, like something that emerges, like as I watch more TV shows, more movies, it feels like productions are sort of put together on the fly. But the sheer number of times it turns out that there's a creative core

that worked together several times before and like parts of it might be swapped in and out but in general like a lot of times the same people work together again and again

like I just wonder if the opportunities are there to sort of build that affinity but yeah it's what we'll see is I bet we end up seeing these characters pop up in comics

I bet we end up seeing these characters pop up in books but we probably won't get, you know, it's tough. And it is a difference, right? Like the Clone Wars numbers, if you go and take a look at them, you know, season two of Clone Wars got 2.58 million viewers. Hard to make a hard comparison, though this article says that Ackleite debuted with 11 million

views in the first five days, but what's a view versus a viewer? A lot of the numbers for streaming are about minutes viewed, right? And it's like, and the other half of this is like, what are the expectations on a streaming platform? You know, I think a lot has been said in the last year or two about how streaming in general is contracting because the sort of numbers that were promised were fake and they were unreachable. And so, you know, in general, we've seen moves back towards bundling and back towards cable. And it's like, yeah, well, you know, if you're trying to make $100 million TV shows that are only going to run for six episodes, like, Yeah, it's going to be an easy one. Unless the thing, the expectations have to be so high in order to make that pay out.

You know, it reminds me a lot of the games industry where something like those Tomb Raider games needed to sell like 20 million copies for Square Enix as a publisher to be happy. And it's like, bro, like y'all ain't Grand Theft Auto. Like, you're not going to hit those numbers. And it's very similar here where it's like, go back to us talking about for me what the show was versus how it was pitched. It was pitched for everybody. It was pitched for like, hey, this is the next big Star Wars thing. They don't, they did not pitch it as this is a thing that's kind of a YA show. I think partly because they wanted it to not just be that. They needed it to do big budget, prime time TV, wide audience numbers. And that's not the show that got made, you know. Well, also, because they sort of like ran into this weird mistake with the Mandalorian where that was supposed to be the cool, you know, lone gunman, you know, shooter on the edge of the world. And a bunch of women and children bought merchandise because they liked the little baby.

And they just thought like, oh, yeah, yeah. And they were like, oh, we can just keep doing this. We can, you know, just make these sort of like all appeal shows and don't have to think about how we're marketing them because people will find something to like and we'll sell it to them. I don't know. So it goes. Corwin-out.

The more time goes by, the more I'm like, how did Andor happen? It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like trying to figure, if you, it's like the empire trying to figure out how Luke got through and destroyed the Death Star. Yeah. It's like how we got all the rest. Yeah. How did that, how did that shot land? Yeah. It's, it's, it's super, super weird.

It's, yeah, it's, it's complicated thing because I do think at best, it was a middling kind of show. With Li Jeng Jai turning in all-time performance, like just great, great performances in there. The realization that, like, I had just assumed, I think we talked about this on our discord, not our, like, our private, like where we chat. Yeah, we don't have a show. We do not have a big open discord, no. Cold Day and how. Shout us to your Discord where you talk about the show. That's awesome.

I love that to anyone who's listening who's part of a Discord who has a channel where they happen to talk about Star Wars and also us. That's awesome. we don't have a discord for we don't have a public discourse not going to have but the revelation like lee jung jai is not really like oh yeah english is the second language no no no real limited english coming into this uh coming into the show and like just trained relentlessly on that performance and like the the degree to which it landed now in spite of the challenges he had taking on the role again makes makes aren't your performance more impressive um you know It's, it's, I don't know if it's up there with, you know, Gungley doing all her lines phonetically in Miami Vice, which is maybe the wildest example of this, where like, Michael Mann was just like, I'm going to cast Gungley. I don't care. I will figure it out. But, yeah, it was, like, the show had some high highs, but it is like, yeah, that's the kind of show that maybe should be canceled sometimes, but I hate the people who are going to claim it as a dub.

Yeah. To not go out on this downer here is a wonderful post from Michael Lutz, who you can listen to with me over on Sheld by genre. We're talking about genre literature. We're just wrapping up our Junji Ito season right now. It is a picture of a spam folder with five emails from Dave Faloni. Subject one. You know what I've always wondered about Mandalrians? Hi, Michael.

where does all the number two holy cow great idea i just had for mandolorean history hi michael a sagacious warrior number three where do you think candoros ordo got up to i have some speculations hi michael three or four the jet packs the freaking jet packs how did i not think of this earlier and five ray's mother could have been a mandolarian hi michael so people weren't so hot on the idea it's good it's good thank you michael I know you're listening. I appreciate it. That is perfect. Do you think we'll get Mandalorian lore here from Timothy Zon? Do you think the word mandol- I mean, Boba-Fet made an appearance?

Boba-Fent mentioned very briefly in the section of the book. Oh, Boba-Fet mentioned. And also Luke remembers killing him briefly. When he's fighting the Nogri in the library, he's remembering how he snapped out of the the rope that tied his hands together. But these guys for a better rope. That's right. Which, by the way,

the rope gun you can't block with your lightsaber is the most the GM is sick of your stupid shit and I've invented a hard counter to stop you from using it in every fight thing I've ever seen. Why can't I block the Stokely stick? Because it'll just keep growing.

It'll just keep growing. It'll just keep going. You'll just keep blocking it. I'll just keep going on it. It's like Spider-Man. You can't block web fluid from Spider-Man, right? so like obviously Spider-Man would beat Luke so you know it's basically

I don't know what like maybe you're in so you're in our gallery right like maybe the tapestry's on the wall could like I don't know I'm just like what's it what's happening in the setting yeah what could you look around and make like a dynamic and interesting cinematic decision in this action scene instead of just

you want the map I drew earlier again you look at the math there might be some clues of how you can beat these guys in a cool way nope nope too far I said it's too far to jump from the museum to the mall, uh, no. Maybe there's something you could, you check your inventory, maybe check your inventory to see if you have anything that you picked up recently.

Oh, no, no, uh, okay. Um, no, it's too big for a force jump. It's just too big for, no, because we're not playing in the prequel timeline. Uh, we're playing in the, the non-canon, we're playing the legends canon. So it's force jumps different. It's different. Maybe the aliens drop something. You should check what they, if they have any other special, special moves written underneath.

I, here's the, just take a look. Uh, also two are, our, are, our, are. bad feeling about this count is two so i'll continue to yeah i do like both from malaya i think han was one of them maybe you're right maybe it was two leas but usually they do play it off as like why do i have a bad feeling about that like i do enjoy again it's a little bit less labored that they still do a lot but natalie's not here the true bad feeling about this hater is not here so yeah all right well it was her it was her i think no it was it was yeah it was yeah it was her

mm-hmm so being the hater it was Leia it was Leia it was Leia it was Leia being

like I have a bad feeling about this while they're in the marketplace it's while they're in the marketplace and then it's at the very end

so yeah all right well with that we've reached the end of another episode of more civilized age and apparently

the acolyte our show is produced by Ricardo Contreras and supported by our listeners at patreon.com slash civilized

uh yeah next time out it's going to be chapters 11 through 22 uh we're going to be reading the next 11 chapters and then the final part will be chapter 23 to the end so just get ready for that if you're if you're reading along until next time please rate and review us on your

podcast platform of choice though I do like the iTunes reviews if I have a little special favorite it might be the the the Apple reviews those might be maybe the most useful who knows We're going to be able to be.